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JasonJohnHorn
08-30-2010, 10:38 AM
This isnt a 'trade rumour' thread. So I didnt want to lump it in with the other Melo threads, this is a thread about what he can do.

I watched in the 80's and early 90's when the Hawks tried building around a very talented Dominique Wilkens, but the bottom line: he wasnt the go-to guy for a championship team. I watched the 76er's build around Iverson, and while they came close one year, they never had much luck outside of that year. Several team have tried building with McGrady, who, whether you like him or not (and I dont), is an extremely talented and gift athlete, or at least was during his tenure with TO, Orlando and Houston. But those teams, or at least the latter, just couldnt build around him or with him. The Mavs have come close with Dirk, but it just doesnt seem like he is the franchise player that can really carry the team. The same could be said of Webber, and Barkley, and the Trailblazers eventually gave up on trying to build around Clyde the glide.

So my question, for the Nuggets and for any team interested in Melo: Is he worth the effort? He is a VERY talented player, there is no doubt about that. He is a solid rebounder, and on some nights can be the best rebounder on the floor. He holds his own on defence, and he is an amazing scorer. But he just hasnt seem to be able to get it done. He's had issues with the coach, and outside of the season where Billups came in and rejuvenated the team, Melo hasnt been out of the first round, and has never really been the kind of guy to step up and take the ball in pressure situations.

All due respect to Melo. He is near the top of the league and I dont think anybody could name more than three small forward who are better than him right now, but is he the kind of guy a franchise really wants to put out the effort to acquire and build around? Being the third or fourth best guy at your position is impressive, but only the BEST team wins a title. Is Denver better off just moving on and trying a different approach since they havent been able to get it done with Melo for several years? Maybe they have failed building around him, or maybe he just isnt the kind of guy to build a contender around, but either way, it aint working. the Blazers gave up on Drexler, and years later Rasheed. 76ers gave up on Barkley, and later Iverson, the Kings gave up on Webber, the Rockets gave up on McGrady and the Hawks eventually gave up on Wilkens. The Mavs are the only team I can think of who havent given up on a franchise player who seems to have gone about as far as he can with the organization.

Thoughts?

mikealike305
08-30-2010, 10:41 AM
put him with amare and CP3.... yea its worth it... and even if u dont put him with those guys and melo goes to a team that doesnt win with him.... its still worth it cuz he will make any team better

stejay
08-30-2010, 11:02 AM
I think he needs to go to a contender. You cant build a team around him, IMO. I think he needs pieces around him, that can take the load off, and he will excel, like when he was with AI. Billups is good, but he isnt that player. He needs to move somewhere where he can have pieces to help him. Not sure if New Jersey is that place, but they are rebuilding, you never know...

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-30-2010, 11:05 AM
This isnt a 'trade rumour' thread. So I didnt want to lump it in with the other Melo threads, this is a thread about what he can do.

I watched in the 80's and early 90's when the Hawks tried building around a very talented Dominique Wilkens, but the bottom line: he wasnt the go-to guy for a championship team. I watched the 76er's build around Iverson, and while they came close one year, they never had much luck outside of that year. Several team have tried building with McGrady, who, whether you like him or not (and I dont), is an extremely talented and gift athlete, or at least was during his tenure with TO, Orlando and Houston. But those teams, or at least the latter, just couldnt build around him or with him. The Mavs have come close with Dirk, but it just doesnt seem like he is the franchise player that can really carry the team. The same could be said of Webber, and Barkley, and the Trailblazers eventually gave up on trying to build around Clyde the glide.

So my question, for the Nuggets and for any team interested in Melo: Is he worth the effort? He is a VERY talented player, there is no doubt about that. He is a solid rebounder, and on some nights can be the best rebounder on the floor. He holds his own on defence, and he is an amazing scorer. But he just hasnt seem to be able to get it done. He's had issues with the coach, and outside of the season where Billups came in and rejuvenated the team, Melo hasnt been out of the first round, and has never really been the kind of guy to step up and take the ball in pressure situations.

All due respect to Melo. He is near the top of the league and I dont think anybody could name more than three small forward who are better than him right now, but is he the kind of guy a franchise really wants to put out the effort to acquire and build around? Being the third or fourth best guy at your position is impressive, but only the BEST team wins a title. Is Denver better off just moving on and trying a different approach since they havent been able to get it done with Melo for several years? Maybe they have failed building around him, or maybe he just isnt the kind of guy to build a contender around, but either way, it aint working. the Blazers gave up on Drexler, and years later Rasheed. 76ers gave up on Barkley, and later Iverson, the Kings gave up on Webber, the Rockets gave up on McGrady and the Hawks eventually gave up on Wilkens. The Mavs are the only team I can think of who havent given up on a franchise player who seems to have gone about as far as he can with the organization.

Thoughts?

:facepalm: Fail.

hvg
08-30-2010, 11:12 AM
Melo's good enough to be the go-to guy on a championship team, but it's not about one player. The Nuggets are the only top tier western conference team with no legitimate post player and no actual C (Nene and Birdman are both out of position PFs). There's really no offensive talent on that team other than Billups and Melo.

He's a lot like Pierce in a lot of ways. I'll judge him after he plays on a team with a post player and a talented guard.

Da Knicks
08-30-2010, 11:12 AM
This isnt a 'trade rumour' thread. So I didnt want to lump it in with the other Melo threads, this is a thread about what he can do.

I watched in the 80's and early 90's when the Hawks tried building around a very talented Dominique Wilkens, but the bottom line: he wasnt the go-to guy for a championship team. I watched the 76er's build around Iverson, and while they came close one year, they never had much luck outside of that year. Several team have tried building with McGrady, who, whether you like him or not (and I dont), is an extremely talented and gift athlete, or at least was during his tenure with TO, Orlando and Houston. But those teams, or at least the latter, just couldnt build around him or with him. The Mavs have come close with Dirk, but it just doesnt seem like he is the franchise player that can really carry the team. The same could be said of Webber, and Barkley, and the Trailblazers eventually gave up on trying to build around Clyde the glide.

So my question, for the Nuggets and for any team interested in Melo: Is he worth the effort? He is a VERY talented player, there is no doubt about that. He is a solid rebounder, and on some nights can be the best rebounder on the floor. He holds his own on defence, and he is an amazing scorer. But he just hasnt seem to be able to get it done. He's had issues with the coach, and outside of the season where Billups came in and rejuvenated the team, Melo hasnt been out of the first round, and has never really been the kind of guy to step up and take the ball in pressure situations.

All due respect to Melo. He is near the top of the league and I dont think anybody could name more than three small forward who are better than him right now, but is he the kind of guy a franchise really wants to put out the effort to acquire and build around? Being the third or fourth best guy at your position is impressive, but only the BEST team wins a title. Is Denver better off just moving on and trying a different approach since they havent been able to get it done with Melo for several years? Maybe they have failed building around him, or maybe he just isnt the kind of guy to build a contender around, but either way, it aint working. the Blazers gave up on Drexler, and years later Rasheed. 76ers gave up on Barkley, and later Iverson, the Kings gave up on Webber, the Rockets gave up on McGrady and the Hawks eventually gave up on Wilkens. The Mavs are the only team I can think of who havent given up on a franchise player who seems to have gone about as far as he can with the organization.

Thoughts?

Send him to the knicks will give him a shot. lol:D

levignjw
08-30-2010, 11:17 AM
I'll take him

stejay
08-30-2010, 11:26 AM
I'll take him

If I was a fan anywhere but LA, Miami, Boston and OKC, I would take him. But, we have Artest, and we have able backups in Walton, Odom and Barnes... Taking Anthony would be too expensive. I wouldnt personally take him.

dnewguy
08-30-2010, 11:29 AM
?

Hellcrooner
08-30-2010, 11:37 AM
as someone who watched Nique in his prim when Rivers, Theus, Wilkins, willis and Moses Malone was a HELL of a good team i must disagre with your statement that nique was not good enough to lead his team.

He had a problem and it was called the Celtics with HOF or Hof bound players like Johnson, Bird, Mchale, Walton, Parish all in the same team. Then a stacked like hel Pistons team Appeared .

Remember mr MJ wasnt able to do JACK while those ecltics and Pistons where able to step on the court withouth a Weelchair.
And not only the Hawks got a reaw deal, the Bucs had all the talent in the world in that span and yet werent abe to even make the finals.

Chronz
08-30-2010, 12:40 PM
I dont see any connection so I dont understand the point of this thread. You can win a title with anyone, those chances of winning increase the better the player you have so why wouldnt I want to build around Melo when the alternatives are building around nobody or lesser players?

llemon
08-30-2010, 12:51 PM
As a Nets fan, I'd prefer that Nets keep their young talent, all their draft picks and their capspace, and pass on 'Melo.

stejay
08-30-2010, 01:00 PM
As a Nets fan, I'd prefer that Nets keep their young talent, all their draft picks and their capspace, and pass on 'Melo.

You guys would be contenders for a few years with him though. 26 years old. He could be a Net for 10 years, and your young team will grow with him. I'd love him if I were a Nets fan

llemon
08-30-2010, 01:05 PM
You guys would be contenders for a few years with him though. 26 years old. He could be a Net for 10 years, and your young team will grow with him. I'd love him if I were a Nets fan

Not that big a fan of 'Melo's.

Don't see him making Nets a contender, especially with what Nets would have to give up.

Let the kids develop, work the draft picks, and spend wisely. That's what I'm hoping the Nets will do. They have a lot of young talent and a good coach.

cantstopthee
08-30-2010, 01:18 PM
Not that big a fan of 'Melo's.

Don't see him making Nets a contender, especially with what Nets would have to give up.

Let the kids develop, work the draft picks, and spend wisely. That's what I'm hoping the Nets will do. They have a lot of young talent and a good coach.
your core will still be their. im guessing williams would go and some one else plus one or 2 1sts

llemon
08-30-2010, 01:21 PM
your core will still be their. im guessing williams would go and some one else plus one or 2 1sts

I'd like to keep Terrence and our 1st round picks.

Just my opinion, and no one is going to change it.

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 01:58 PM
I dont see any connection so I dont understand the point of this thread. You can win a title with anyone, those chances of winning increase the better the player you have so why wouldnt I want to build around Melo when the alternatives are building around nobody or lesser players?

look at the piston championship team, they werent build around anyone. just a decent starting five, some of the grittiest bench guards this league has ever see, and the willingness to buy into larry brown's defensive oriented style.

you don't need a "franchise" player to win.

BkOriginalOne
08-30-2010, 02:37 PM
He is worth it. Because he is a top 8 player. And a top 3 Scorer.

You just have to put players around him that are efficient.
The only thing missing from anthony's game is that he should be averaging 5 assists per contest. If not, then he better be has to be the scoring champ to be worth it.

I think at the end of the day you have to take him because you can build a title team around him. Anthony needs a point guard who can run an offense, defend and shoot the 3.( If only Billups was 3 years younger). He needs a 2 guard who is a great defender and who can knock down shots. (Afflalo was a good choice).
The problem was, they needed a guy who in the post who was more of 20,10 defensive player. Actually, They needed a guy who had BOTH the skills of Nene and Kmart. A Ne-Mart! Someone who could defend, rebound and be threat for plus 20 points and 10 boards per contest Imagine the Nuggs with Boozer.
Lastly, they need to whatever they can to get back Marcus Camby.

THEN! It's worth it, at least for the Nuggets.

BlazingJ
08-30-2010, 03:03 PM
Well you can trade us billups for marcus camby, we'll give you rudy too

markbutter
08-30-2010, 03:16 PM
I think the first poster answered his own qustion.

He is a solid rebounder, and on some nights can be the best rebounder on the floor. He holds his own on defence, and he is an amazing scorer.

Unfortunately, yes on SOME nites he is the best rebounder. On other nites he holds his own on defense. . . but on MOST nites, he's more interested how many shots he can get. IMHO, the reason he plays any defense he does is because of Karl. He's got to bring it everey nite and on the nites his shot isn't falling, be just that more aggresive rebounding and playing defense. And if you look at his shooting percentage and the number of shots he takes, he isn't that good. Granted he's a scorer, but some of his numbers are due to the style Denver plays (in terms of getting more shots, you'll score more).

Chronz
08-30-2010, 04:01 PM
look at the piston championship team, they werent build around anyone. just a decent starting five, some of the grittiest bench guards this league has ever see, and the willingness to buy into larry brown's defensive oriented style.

you don't need a "franchise" player to win.
LOL at the term decent to describe the best defensive unit in league history with depth to boot. They were the most talented team in the league once Sheed arrived and Malone went down. And Chauncey at his peak was atleast comparable to Melo if your trying to distinguish star power. Just because they were no namers doesnt mean they werent elite. Stat heads were the first to truly recognize Chaunceys worth, the Pistons exemplified everything wrong with per game stats and arbitrary measurements.

Anyways the point I was making holds true either way, lets pretend they won without a great player, do you doubt that you would be able to win with a better player?

Or is there some other point to this thread Im not seeing?

smuffins353
08-30-2010, 04:03 PM
Melo to houston baby

thekmp211
08-30-2010, 09:25 PM
LOL at the term decent to describe the best defensive unit in league history with depth to boot. They were the most talented team in the league once Sheed arrived and Malone went down. And Chauncey at his peak was atleast comparable to Melo if your trying to distinguish star power. Just because they were no namers doesnt mean they werent elite. Stat heads were the first to truly recognize Chaunceys worth, the Pistons exemplified everything wrong with per game stats and arbitrary measurements.

Anyways the point I was making holds true either way, lets pretend they won without a great player, do you doubt that you would be able to win with a better player?

Or is there some other point to this thread Im not seeing?


the only point i can see is whether or not you offer melo the max. what i THINK OP is getting at is that once a guy is identified as the "main" guy, he's going to want to get paid like that. And, as is the free agent system, teams looking to move up agressively will drive up the price if the home team doesn't. so i guess the question is does melo deserve a max contract that will not allow the nuggets to surround him with adequate talent to win?

i personally don't think so, but the market is tough. you make the opposing argument, which is they would be at the very least better off with him than without him. it's not like they are freeing up space to make a run at durant or lebron.

cabernetluver
08-30-2010, 09:45 PM
Sure you could, but it would take the right pieces. To me, the greatest center I ever saw was Wilt. The second greatest was Kareem. In both cases, neither was a champion without the right pieces around them. Both were indisputably go to men. Both still needed the right stuff.

I get a kick out of people forgetting that basketball is not an individual game. What I have not read is that Mello is a bad team mate. So, sure, he can have a team built around him.

3RDASYSTEM
08-30-2010, 10:15 PM
Yea CHRONZ i agree that PISTONS 04 squad had like 3/4 lottery picks and a steal in PRINCE and B.WALLACE

BILLUPS(#3 OR #4pick cant recall this second but im pretty much on point)
HAMILTON(7/8TH pick)
SHEED(4/5TH pick) -

Now tell me how can you not win a title with 3 lottery picks pretty much in they ''prime'' with the best coach in game and quality depth? If they had drafted MELO it would be goin on like 10straight ECF and u can pretty much double up the FINALS appearances at 4 right off top

ryder78c
08-30-2010, 10:18 PM
Well you can trade us billups for marcus camby, we'll give you rudy too

naw we'll give up Batum,Bayless,pendergraph,Johnson 2 1st round + Cash + rights to players for Melo

and miller cunningham Rudy 2 2round picks +cash + rights for billups

I can dream

Oden/Priz
LA/Camby
Melo/Babbitt
Roy/Matthews
Billups/Williams

ryder78c
08-30-2010, 10:23 PM
I'd like to keep Terrence and our 1st round picks.

Just my opinion, and no one is going to change it.

u crazy twill and a few first i would do it in a second if i were the nets if that was offered thats a top 5 in the east if not top 3

Lopez/Petro
Favors/Murphy
Melo/Outlaw
Marrow/James
Harris/Farmar

Bishnoff
08-30-2010, 11:13 PM
This isnt a 'trade rumour' thread. So I didnt want to lump it in with the other Melo threads, this is a thread about what he can do.

I watched in the 80's and early 90's when the Hawks tried building around a very talented Dominique Wilkens, but the bottom line: he wasnt the go-to guy for a championship team. I watched the 76er's build around Iverson, and while they came close one year, they never had much luck outside of that year. Several team have tried building with McGrady, who, whether you like him or not (and I dont), is an extremely talented and gift athlete, or at least was during his tenure with TO, Orlando and Houston. But those teams, or at least the latter, just couldnt build around him or with him. The Mavs have come close with Dirk, but it just doesnt seem like he is the franchise player that can really carry the team. The same could be said of Webber, and Barkley, and the Trailblazers eventually gave up on trying to build around Clyde the glide.

So my question, for the Nuggets and for any team interested in Melo: Is he worth the effort? He is a VERY talented player, there is no doubt about that. He is a solid rebounder, and on some nights can be the best rebounder on the floor. He holds his own on defence, and he is an amazing scorer. But he just hasnt seem to be able to get it done. He's had issues with the coach, and outside of the season where Billups came in and rejuvenated the team, Melo hasnt been out of the first round, and has never really been the kind of guy to step up and take the ball in pressure situations.

All due respect to Melo. He is near the top of the league and I dont think anybody could name more than three small forward who are better than him right now, but is he the kind of guy a franchise really wants to put out the effort to acquire and build around? Being the third or fourth best guy at your position is impressive, but only the BEST team wins a title. Is Denver better off just moving on and trying a different approach since they havent been able to get it done with Melo for several years? Maybe they have failed building around him, or maybe he just isnt the kind of guy to build a contender around, but either way, it aint working. the Blazers gave up on Drexler, and years later Rasheed. 76ers gave up on Barkley, and later Iverson, the Kings gave up on Webber, the Rockets gave up on McGrady and the Hawks eventually gave up on Wilkens. The Mavs are the only team I can think of who havent given up on a franchise player who seems to have gone about as far as he can with the organization.

Thoughts?

I understand what you are getting at, but you could say the same thing about LeBron, or even MJ prior to 1990-91. Melo is still young enough for teams to try and build around him; and as others have noted, he may be paired with another superstar (or two) next year.

A LOT of great players have never won a ring. It doesn't mean that they couldn't lead their teams to glory; it just means that the formula wasn't right, or injuries/other factors prevented it.

JasonJohnHorn
08-31-2010, 08:48 AM
Anyways the point I was making holds true either way, lets pretend they won without a great player, do you doubt that you would be able to win with a better player?

Or is there some other point to this thread Im not seeing?

Championship teams are about the sum of the parts, not the individual pieces, and I think you know this because I've seen you write (in this thread among others) that stats dont tell the entire story. Some players put up great numbers, and are very talented players (Mitch Richmond, Jerry Stackhouse), but never really bring their teams to legit title contention. Stackhouse, as an example, joined the Mavs, one would think that a guy who could score 30+ a game would push that team over the cusp and bring them in to legit contention, but Stackhouse (baring last season) has mostly only been effective when the offence is run through him, and ineffective to have him as a role player.

Melo is talented enough to demand a high contract, but is not at the level of Kobe, or LBJ, and some might justifiably argue Durant. The question is about his efficiency as the primary player vs. the cost of having him as a role player or second or third option.

I think you are correct in saying that despite stats, Billups was as good on the floor as Melo, in fact, I think I might even say he was better. He got Denver out of the first round didnt he? When Iverson, a guy with far more impressive personal stats couldnt. But Billups didnt cost the Pistons what Melo would cost a team picking him up. And he didnt need to be the guy shooting to be effective.

As a second or third option, he is too expensive, as a role player he likely wouldnt be as effective as he is now, and as a first option their are too many guys who are better than him at his position, or on the wing, for him to carry his team to a title. He's played with Iverson, he's played with Billups, he's had any combination or Nene, Martin, Camby and Andersen in the front court, he's had guys like Smith help off the bench, and yet the Nuggets have really only put up a fight one season with Melo as a cornerstone. So why would another team want to bring him in as their franchise player when the Nuggets have already just about everything they can to build around him and have had such little success? Wouldnt a team just be better off building around an inexpensive young core than an expensive all-star that is good, but not good enough? Unless you are a team like NY, LA or Portland, who loves to spend money, he's just too high a cost. One of those teams doesnt need him, one of them doesnt have the pieces to get him, and the other team is building around Roy.

Anybody can win a title. That is true. Mitch Richmond won a title, but he rode the pine and didnt play a single minute in the finals. Adam Morrison has two rings? The question isnt can a team win with him. Its more about can win with him as the cornerstone. I think the answer is no, as talented as he is. But that's just how I see it. I was wondering how others thought on the matter being as how so many rumours are swirling around about him. If teams that have a relativelt inexpensive young core (like NJ) would want to see Melo on their roster. Or if NY thinks Amare and Melo could compete with Boston, Orlando and Miami?

llemon
08-31-2010, 09:02 AM
u crazy twill and a few first i would do it in a second if i were the nets if that was offered thats a top 5 in the east if not top 3

Lopez/Petro
Favors/Murphy
Melo/Outlaw
Marrow/James
Harris/Farmar

You have to include Murphy or Harris to make the trade work, salary matcing-wise.

And I wouldn't do that trade.

llemon
08-31-2010, 09:03 AM
I understand what you are getting at, but you could say the same thing about LeBron, or even MJ prior to 1990-91. Melo is still young enough for teams to try and build around him; and as others have noted, he may be paired with another superstar (or two) next year.

A LOT of great players have never won a ring. It doesn't mean that they couldn't lead their teams to glory; it just means that the formula wasn't right, or injuries/other factors prevented it.

But 'Melo is not Lebron, nor MJ

Chronz
08-31-2010, 01:12 PM
Championship teams are about the sum of the parts, not the individual pieces, and I think you know this because I've seen you write (in this thread among others) that stats dont tell the entire story. Some players put up great numbers, and are very talented players (Mitch Richmond, Jerry Stackhouse), but never really bring their teams to legit title contention.
I also say that most people who play the whole "stats dont tell the whole story" routine tend not to know what stats CAN tell you. Mitch Richmond was a guy highly respected by the GOAT, to the point where he considered him a rival and a winner like Reggie a joke. So whos to say the stats arent reflective of his true worth or contributions? I dont see you making any connection as to why the teams they were on were suppose to be title contenders in the first place. In the case of Stackhouse he was a guy whos superficial averages always overrated him. Ironically this is another guy MJ thought highly enough of to trade for. Still I think MJ the manager was a worse talent evaluator than MJ the competitor.


Stackhouse, as an example, joined the Mavs, one would think that a guy who could score 30+ a game would push that team over the cusp and bring them in to legit contention, but Stackhouse (baring last season) has mostly only been effective when the offence is run through him, and ineffective to have him as a role player.

Your making the mistake of assuming the Stackhouse Dallas got was the same Stack that was in his prime instead of the Stack who was ravaged by injuries, Stack actually bounced back with Dallas. Even then the stats wouldnt have supported your idea, this gos back to that inefficient chucker point. When you have to use up so many possessions to score 30 and your team sucks offensively its obvious that your not going to be able to score as much on a good offensive team with much better options. I never once thought Stack would push the Mavs to the top, his lack of playoff stats tell a story your neglecting, a proven playoff choker isnt a guy Id have as a guy to put any team over the top, but I did think he would give them an asset off the bench.

Id like to see how a guy who was in the running for 6th man of the year for like 4 years straight despite injuries hobbling him, wasnt effective. Especially if you consider what he did this year as effective play.



Melo is talented enough to demand a high contract, but is not at the level of Kobe, or LBJ, and some might justifiably argue Durant. The question is about his efficiency as the primary player vs. the cost of having him as a role player or second or third option.

Well without looking at his skill curve, his efficiency should go up when not being the main option just like it happened with Stack and he was a bum on bum knees. The question I think your asking is if he can make a far bigger leap than Stack made when becoming less of a focus, the kind of leap Gasol made when he teamed up with Kobe. Personally I dont like Melo, I feel hes been utilized in ways that have maximized his potential output and hes done little to maximize the players around him and as much as I would love for him to be in the Artest mold where he just flatlines at a certain level of efficiency, he doesnt fit the typical chucker criteria. Sure hes not on the level of true stars but if I dont have those stars then he gives me a better chance. Which begs the question, if I dont have those players why am I making Melo a 3rd option?

If I have any concerns about Melo its defensively, Im sure he could fit in anywhere offensively. I do have question about what he would look like without Dynamic playmakers (his rate of assisted baskets has been unusually high throughout his career) but not to the point where I doubt I could win a title with him spearheading my offense or playing behind a superior player.



I think you are correct in saying that despite stats, Billups was as good on the floor as Melo, in fact, I think I might even say he was better. He got Denver out of the first round didnt he? When Iverson, a guy with far more impressive personal stats couldnt. But Billups didnt cost the Pistons what Melo would cost a team picking him up. And he didnt need to be the guy shooting to be effective.
Thats not what Im saying at all. Its not in spite of the stats, its BECAUSE of the stats. Remember the bit about Stat heads being the first to recognize Chaunceys worth. Statistically speaking Chauncey has had better campaigns, his intangible worth only strengthens his case. Also your AI comparison is exactly what I mean when I say most people dont know what stats are telling them. Chauncey had the better stats at that point bro, I cant recall a single stat head saying the Pistons won that trade and got the better player.



As a second or third option, he is too expensive, as a role player he likely wouldnt be as effective as he is now, and as a first option their are too many guys who are better than him at his position, or on the wing, for him to carry his team to a title.
I see what your saying, its harder to build around him than them but the fact remains, you CAN win with just about anyone if the defensive support is great enough. And yes if I had 2 superior players Id probably think about adding a Shane Battier/Ariza type before him but the amount of teams to have players greater than Melo doesnt run that long.



He's played with Iverson, he's played with Billups, he's had any combination or Nene, Martin, Camby and Andersen in the front court, he's had guys like Smith help off the bench, and yet the Nuggets have really only put up a fight one season with Melo as a cornerstone. So why would another team want to bring him in as their franchise player when the Nuggets have already just about everything they can to build around him and have had such little success? Wouldnt a team just be better off building around an inexpensive young core than an expensive all-star that is good, but not good enough? Unless you are a team like NY, LA or Portland, who loves to spend money, he's just too high a cost. One of those teams doesnt need him, one of them doesnt have the pieces to get him, and the other team is building around Roy.
Agreed, better players would have made more of that situation but its because they are better players. If you dont have those guys then it depends on what direction you want to take the team and what you think you can put around him. My main complain was what the hell do Tmac and Dirk have to do with Melo. Those are guys I know I would have a much easier time building around. In the case of Mac I would have given up the house (assuming we live in a universe where injuries dont exist). Melo doesnt belong in that class.



Anybody can win a title. That is true. Mitch Richmond won a title, but he rode the pine and didnt play a single minute in the finals. Adam Morrison has two rings? The question isnt can a team win with him. Its more about can win with him as the cornerstone.
Well yea bro thats what I mean, I wouldnt bring up something so irrelevant as pine riders to be the foundation of my argument. I believe you can win with anyone if the support in place is great enough. Obviously theres a certain point where your expecting too much from an organization to build around 1 guy, thats how I feel about AI. So many things have to be perfect in order to win with AI as his teams best player that its pointless building around him. And if thats your complaint about Melo I can see your point, just know that Tmac and Dirk dont fit those classifications. Its ridiculously easy to build around guys like them, thats why I hate Grant Hills ankles so much. He robbed us of some epic playoff series this decade.


I think the answer is no, as talented as he is. But that's just how I see it. I was wondering how others thought on the matter being as how so many rumours are swirling around about him. If teams that have a relativelt inexpensive young core (like NJ) would want to see Melo on their roster. Or if NY thinks Amare and Melo could compete with Boston, Orlando and Miami?

Definitely but what if Melo came with Billups or any combination? Without Ray Allen that KG trade to Boston doesnt win you a title but would you go against a trade for KG just because it doesnt make your team good enough? Isnt the fact that youve made a giant leap in the right direction worth it? I guess it depends on what you give up.

llemon
08-31-2010, 01:18 PM
So whos to say the stats arent reflective of his true worth or contributions?

Me

stejay
08-31-2010, 01:19 PM
Me

Ahhh, still fighting the battle vs stats huh?

llemon
08-31-2010, 01:22 PM
Ahhh, still fighting the battle vs stats huh?

No battle. Don't need stats to tell me what's what.

Chronz
08-31-2010, 01:36 PM
Me
So what did you see that Michael Jordan didnt?


No battle. Don't need stats to tell me what's what.
LOL sure, let me guess your an all knowing deity possessing a brain that processes information faster than a super computer. Unless you can remember the average success rate of every player in the league Im not buying what your selling. Without a basis for comparison there is no analysis and without an understanding of stats that barometer is diminished.

You say you dont need stats to know the game but Im more impressed by people who dont need to watch the game to know whats what. When you get to that level let me know, heck when you get to that level you might have a job in the NBA.

stejay
08-31-2010, 01:56 PM
So what did you see that Michael Jordan didnt?


LOL sure, let me guess your an all knowing deity possessing a brain that processes information faster than a super computer. Unless you can remember the average success rate of every player in the league Im not buying what your selling. Without a basis for comparison there is no analysis and without an understanding of stats that barometer is diminished.

You say you dont need stats to know the game but Im more impressed by people who dont need to watch the game to know whats what. When you get to that level let me know, heck when you get to that level you might have a job in the NBA.

Been that, done that. Ive had that battle with him vs stats. He stubborn, you aint gonna win.

Chronz
08-31-2010, 02:54 PM
Been that, done that. Ive had that battle with him vs stats. He stubborn, you aint gonna win.
Did you tell him how people with no understanding of the NBA and its history can still get a job based on their understanding of stats? Thats a pretty damning blow to anyone who thinks stats arent informative and anyone who thinks they know so much to the point where they dont need stats, then thats beyond stubborn.

llemon
08-31-2010, 02:56 PM
Did you tell him how people with no understanding of the NBA and its history can still get a job based on their understanding of stats? Thats a pretty damning blow to anyone who thinks stats arent informative and anyone who thinks they know so much to the point where they dont need stats, then thats beyond stubborn.

Sez you.

stejay
08-31-2010, 03:03 PM
Sez you.

First, its SAYS you. Second, is that all you do, make very vague statements, and disagree with normal views, spout extreme views, and agree with other extreme views?

Chronz
08-31-2010, 03:51 PM
Sez you.
Oh ok I get it now. Funny guy

llemon
08-31-2010, 03:56 PM
First, its SAYS you. Second, is that all you do, make very vague statements, and disagree with normal views, spout extreme views, and agree with other extreme views?

I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

stejay
08-31-2010, 04:01 PM
I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

Except, I can never ever take anything you say on basketball seriously now, nor can many others, as you denounced stats. Unlucky buddy....

llemon
08-31-2010, 04:04 PM
Except, I can never ever take anything you say on basketball seriously now, nor can many others, as you denounced stats. Unlucky buddy....

Oh my God, you can't imagine how badly I feel right now.

LOL!!!!!!!!

stejay
08-31-2010, 04:07 PM
Oh my God, you can't imagine how badly I feel right now.

LOL!!!!!!!!

hahahaha, you are seriously underestimating how much stats hold value on this site... you will realize soon when you post your nonsense about stats dont mean anything, I use my eye.

devv83
08-31-2010, 09:37 PM
a nets fan saying he doesnt want Melo on his team and he would rather keep twill and some picks, man i have seen it all.

llemon
08-31-2010, 09:40 PM
a nets fan saying he doesnt want Melo on his team and he would rather keep twill and some picks, man i have seen it all.

Hey, I didn't want Lebron either. And that was just about money, not talent and draft picks.

llemon
08-31-2010, 09:44 PM
hahahaha, you are seriously underestimating how much stats hold value on this site... you will realize soon when you post your nonsense about stats dont mean anything, I use my eye.

'realize'???? LOL. After 48 years of observing the NBA, doubtful that my view is going to change.

Hawkeye15
08-31-2010, 10:27 PM
I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

if you can't prove your opinions with evidence, ie, stats, than you will not be taken seriously here. I have been around the game for over 30 years. So what. There are many out there who spend ridiculous amounts of time compiling numbers and situational stats for us to examine, to show us what the eye misses.
I can never take what your eyes tell you seriously, when there is so much evidence out there pointing the other way. And being older than anyone here is like a CEO of a company refuse to get on email because he used to do it this way or that way.
Embrace the new information we have. Or you will fall behind. Your "eyes" will get killed on this site by fans who not only watch as much or more ball than you, but also embrace the statistical information we are now given.

Peace

The_Jamal
08-31-2010, 10:37 PM
People are straight silly if they "don't want melo" on their team. He's one of 10 guys in the NBA that can go to any team and easily make them better. Nuggets are a 35-win team at best without him.

llemon
08-31-2010, 10:44 PM
if you can't prove your opinions with evidence, ie, stats, than you will not be taken seriously here. I have been around the game for over 30 years. So what. There are many out there who spend ridiculous amounts of time compiling numbers and situational stats for us to examine, to show us what the eye misses.
I can never take what your eyes tell you seriously, when there is so much evidence out there pointing the other way. And being older than anyone here is like a CEO of a company refuse to get on email because he used to do it this way or that way.
Embrace the new information we have. Or you will fall behind. Your "eyes" will get killed on this site by fans who not only watch as much or more ball than you, but also embrace the statistical information we are now given.

Peace

Tell your story walking, pal.

Hawkeye15
08-31-2010, 10:51 PM
Tell your story walking, pal.

I dont even know what this means. but I get the message. You are not going to embrace the current knowledge offered. Plenty of posters here know basketball. Being older means forced habit. You will find some resistance on this site, with arguments far beyond yours.
Have fun getting killed in arguments, when your eye fails

llemon
08-31-2010, 11:03 PM
I dont even know what this means. but I get the message. You are not going to embrace the current knowledge offered. Plenty of posters here know basketball. Being older means forced habit. You will find some resistance on this site, with arguments far beyond yours.
Have fun getting killed in arguments, when your eye fails

Not too worried.

I don't lose all that many arguments.

Bishnoff
08-31-2010, 11:07 PM
But 'Melo is not Lebron, nor MJ

And Dirk isn't Melo, and T-Mac isn't Dirk, and...

What's your point? They all hadn't won a ring in the time frame I specified.

llemon
08-31-2010, 11:09 PM
And Dirk isn't Melo, and T-Mac isn't Dirk, and...

What's your point? They all hadn't won a ring in the time frame I specified.

So everyone who didn't win a ring in that time period is equally talented?

Hawkeye15
08-31-2010, 11:09 PM
Not too worried.

I don't lose all that many arguments.

I haven't seen an argument you won yet.

llemon
08-31-2010, 11:16 PM
I haven't seen an argument you won yet.

Really don't care what you've seen

Bishnoff
08-31-2010, 11:18 PM
So everyone who didn't win a ring in that time period is equally talented?

No, it doesn't always have to be about individual talent. Championships are won by using the correct formula against the competition that given season. It doesn't matter how many regular season games you win if you get knocked out in the Playoffs by a team that has your number.

To relate this back to my original argument, an individual player may be the undisputed leader of the team, but he cannot win a ring all by himself. It comes down to the players he has around him, and how well they match up (as a team) against the opponents they are dealt in the Playoffs. The best team doesn’t always win the Championship. Just because Melo has failed so far (just like LeBron has, so far) doesn’t mean he is incapable of leading a team to glory.

tp13baby
08-31-2010, 11:22 PM
Really don't care what you've seen

Hawkeye 15. llemon won that argument. ha

llemon
08-31-2010, 11:25 PM
No, it doesn't always have to be about individual talent. Championships are won by using the correct formula against the competition that given season. It doesn't matter how many regular season games you win if you get knocked out in the Playoffs by a team that has your number.

To relate this back to my original argument, an individual player may be the undisputed leader of the team, but he cannot win a ring all by himself. It comes down to the players he has around him, and how well they match up (as a team) against the opponents they are dealt in the Playoffs. The best team doesn’t always win the Championship. Just because Melo has failed so far (just like LeBron has, so far) doesn’t mean he is incapable of leading a team to glory.

'Melo hasn't shown any signs of being a leader thus far.

Bishnoff
08-31-2010, 11:32 PM
'Melo hasn't shown any signs of being a leader thus far.

He is perceived as being Denver’s “Leader” since he is their franchise player, even if it is debatable whether he displays the characteristics of a “Leader”.

llemon
08-31-2010, 11:34 PM
He is perceived as being Denver’s “Leader” since he is their franchise player, even if it is debatable whether he displays the characteristics of a “Leader”.

Perception's a muhfuzz, ain't it?

Billups is obviously the team leader.

llemon
08-31-2010, 11:37 PM
Taking Anthony would be too expensive. I wouldnt personally take him.
www.america-jerseys.com

Pretty much how I feel also.

Hawkeye15
08-31-2010, 11:44 PM
Hawkeye 15. llemon won that argument. ha

there was no argument to win. Fact is, if he doesn't accept the information given to fans nowadays, he will be lost in arguments against advanced fans.

ntat
08-31-2010, 11:46 PM
This isnt a 'trade rumour' thread. So I didnt want to lump it in with the other Melo threads, this is a thread about what he can do.

I watched in the 80's and early 90's when the Hawks tried building around a very talented Dominique Wilkens, but the bottom line: he wasnt the go-to guy for a championship team. I watched the 76er's build around Iverson, and while they came close one year, they never had much luck outside of that year. Several team have tried building with McGrady, who, whether you like him or not (and I dont), is an extremely talented and gift athlete, or at least was during his tenure with TO, Orlando and Houston. But those teams, or at least the latter, just couldnt build around him or with him. The Mavs have come close with Dirk, but it just doesnt seem like he is the franchise player that can really carry the team. The same could be said of Webber, and Barkley, and the Trailblazers eventually gave up on trying to build around Clyde the glide.

So my question, for the Nuggets and for any team interested in Melo: Is he worth the effort? He is a VERY talented player, there is no doubt about that. He is a solid rebounder, and on some nights can be the best rebounder on the floor. He holds his own on defence, and he is an amazing scorer. But he just hasnt seem to be able to get it done. He's had issues with the coach, and outside of the season where Billups came in and rejuvenated the team, Melo hasnt been out of the first round, and has never really been the kind of guy to step up and take the ball in pressure situations.
All due respect to Melo. He is near the top of the league and I dont think anybody could name more than three small forward who are better than him right now, but is he the kind of guy a franchise really wants to put out the effort to acquire and build around? Being the third or fourth best guy at your position is impressive, but only the BEST team wins a title. Is Denver better off just moving on and trying a different approach since they havent been able to get it done with Melo for several years? Maybe they have failed building around him, or maybe he just isnt the kind of guy to build a contender around, but either way, it aint working. the Blazers gave up on Drexler, and years later Rasheed. 76ers gave up on Barkley, and later Iverson, the Kings gave up on Webber, the Rockets gave up on McGrady and the Hawks eventually gave up on Wilkens. The Mavs are the only team I can think of who havent given up on a franchise player who seems to have gone about as far as he can with the organization.

Thoughts?

The dude has hit an insane % of his game winners....

Bishnoff
09-01-2010, 12:12 AM
Perception's a muhfuzz, ain't it?

Billups is obviously the team leader.

Perhaps, but now we are just getting into semantics. Let me rephrase: Denver is built around Melo. Now replace any reference I have made to “Leader” with “player the team has been built around”.

llemon
09-01-2010, 10:46 AM
Perhaps, but now we are just getting into semantics. Let me rephrase: Denver is built around Melo. Now replace any reference I have made to “Leader” with “player the team has been built around”.

If that is the case, it looks like it is time for Denver to 'rebuild'.

GMEN4EVER
09-01-2010, 11:13 AM
Not much merit to this thread topic. There's too many great players and great teams each year for everyone to win a championship or two. Karl Malone was arguably the greatest PF ever and he never won one. It's about getting a little bit lucky when you have a great team. No one player can win a championship by himself. We get hung up way too often on the "super stars" in the NBA. You don't need one to win, but they do help. At the end of the day Melo is a great player, top ten in the league over all by most people's perception. Certainly you can build a team around him, Denver just hasn't been able to put the right pieces together to overcome the lakers. They don't have the front court size to get it done, it has nothing to do with Melo being great or not, or whether you can build a team around him or not.

Meaze_Gibson
09-01-2010, 02:34 PM
Imma fan of Melo but something aint right. Probably top three natural scorers in league but doesnt have the defense and picks and chooses his rebounds. Comin out of college, I thought he'd be like a taller Barkley-lite, but dude just don't have the heart to take that next step. With all this said, I'd keep him. Chauncey is good for him and possibly running more plays for Nene, continuing the development of Lawson, and adding defensive-trouble free pf and off ball offensive, defensive sg (i.e richard hamilton) would do wonders for they squad.