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Mile High Champ
08-30-2010, 09:25 AM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last two years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

PF Rankings

1) Pau Gasol
2) Dirk Nowitzki
3) Tim Duncan
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2009 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Dirk Nowitzki
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Pau Gasol
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Antawn Jamison
9) Rashard Lewis
10) David West

2008 Off-Season PF rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Amare Stoudemire
4) Chris Bosh
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Elton Brand
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Pau Gasol
9) Antawn Jamison
10) David West

Mile High Champ
08-30-2010, 09:27 AM
I think this is Bosh, granted the raps did very litttle last year, he is simply a more complete player than Amare or Boozer at this stage of his career.

pebloemer
08-30-2010, 09:38 AM
I am going to refrain from voting for a little bit to hear some arguments. I expect this to be an Amare/Bosh poll. I must admit I have a hard time overlooking Garnett as when healthy I'd take him any day of the week over Amare and Bosh. I fully expect injuries to crushes his ranking here, but his defensive intensity and leadership on the Celtics remains in full display.

I'll listen to some arguments though, then make my vote.

NBA-GMaster
08-30-2010, 09:39 AM
Boshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

stejay
08-30-2010, 09:39 AM
Garnett

BOSTON617
08-30-2010, 09:41 AM
i went with kg not to be a homer just think thats where he belongs

GSRaider
08-30-2010, 10:01 AM
I'm not saying he's a top 5 PF but David Lee should be an option on th poll... ( he's better then Josh Smith ( IMO )

Niro
08-30-2010, 10:05 AM
for me its between bosh and stat.
i go with bosh for the same reason mile high champ mentionend

Avenged
08-30-2010, 10:07 AM
Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Boozer 2009-10 28 78 2673 21.3 .599 .562 8.2 29.9 19.4 15.8 1.6 1.1 14.3 24.8 112 102 5.3 4.6 9.9 0.178
2 Bosh 2009-10 25 70 2526 25.0 .592 .522 9.9 25.2 17.7 11.5 0.9 2.1 10.7 28.7 117 111 7.9 1.7 9.6 0.182
3 Garnett 2009-10 33 69 2060 19.4 .569 .521 4.8 24.8 15.1 15.7 1.7 2.2 10.4 22.1 112 101 3.6 3.8 7.3 0.171
4 Amare 2009-10 27 82 2838 22.6 .615 .557 9.7 18.9 14.5 4.8 0.9 2.1 12.1 27.3 117 109 8.2 2.5 10.7 0.181



Going statistically, Boozer is a lot closer than we all think..

Leads all these guys in steals, assists, rebounds, and field goal percentage. His TS% is a tiny bit more than Bosh's but his efficiency is 21.3, 3rd among the group. Boozer's defensive rating is also 2nd best behind KG.

I know for a fact Boozer isn't going to win this, it'll come down to Bosh vs. Amare but I'm going to go with Boozer to distinguish myself from the masses.

Brooklyn Mets
08-30-2010, 10:09 AM
Amare

The Miami Cheat
08-30-2010, 10:09 AM
i say KG

97NYer
08-30-2010, 10:11 AM
Bosh IMO should have been number one. It would be crazy if he doesn't win this.

AntiG
08-30-2010, 10:18 AM
Garnett. Unlike Pau, Dirk, Bosh and Amare, he actually plays defense.

td0tsfinest
08-30-2010, 10:18 AM
I'm going with Bosh on this one.

bigsams50
08-30-2010, 10:21 AM
Bosh

JasonJohnHorn
08-30-2010, 10:24 AM
This is hard man. Amare is the best scorer, or at least the most versatile. Boozer is the best rebounder. Bosh is a better rebounder than Amare and a better scorer than Boozer, and Josh smith is the best all-around player, between steals, assists and blocks.

So I'm going to go with Smith. He had a great year. Scoring can be over rated sometimes, so just because his average is a little lower, his rebounding is as solid as anybody, he posts the highest assist total, as many steals as anybody on this list, more blocks than anybody, and he is a great defender. Plus he was a contributor on a playoff team (unlike Bosh), and though Amare's team went deeper in the playoffs, I get a chubby over great defence, so my vote goes to Smith. Though it seems like I am a minority of one on this one. lol

unleashthebeast
08-30-2010, 10:30 AM
Bosh IMO should have been number one. It would be crazy if he doesn't win this.

really? u mind explaining? i think bosh is 4th borderline 3rd next to gasol

hvg
08-30-2010, 10:31 AM
I think Amare and Bosh have comparable offensive games. Amare is more explosive and better facing up, but Bosh is the better back-to-the-basket player and IMO a better passer. I'll vote Bosh just because Amare looks completely clueless on defense sometimes. Bosh is no DPOY either, but he's certainly better than Amare.

Raidaz4Life
08-30-2010, 10:35 AM
Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Boozer 2009-10 28 78 2673 21.3 .599 .562 8.2 29.9 19.4 15.8 1.6 1.1 14.3 24.8 112 102 5.3 4.6 9.9 0.178
2 Bosh 2009-10 25 70 2526 25.0 .592 .522 9.9 25.2 17.7 11.5 0.9 2.1 10.7 28.7 117 111 7.9 1.7 9.6 0.182
3 Garnett 2009-10 33 69 2060 19.4 .569 .521 4.8 24.8 15.1 15.7 1.7 2.2 10.4 22.1 112 101 3.6 3.8 7.3 0.171
4 Amare 2009-10 27 82 2838 22.6 .615 .557 9.7 18.9 14.5 4.8 0.9 2.1 12.1 27.3 117 109 8.2 2.5 10.7 0.181



Going statistically, Boozer is a lot closer than we all think..

Leads all these guys in steals, assists, rebounds, and field goal percentage. His TS% is a tiny bit more than Bosh's but his efficiency is 21.3, 3rd among the group. Boozer's defensive rating is also 2nd best behind KG.

I know for a fact Boozer isn't going to win this, it'll come down to Bosh vs. Amare but I'm going to go with Boozer to distinguish myself from the masses.

I've been saying this for a long time that Boozer is ridiculously underrated. I would take him ahead of Amare and not far behind Bosh.

BOSTON617
08-30-2010, 10:45 AM
Garnett. Unlike Pau, Dirk, Bosh and Amare, he actually plays defense.

ppl underestimate defense lol i guess its not that important anymore

daleja424
08-30-2010, 10:46 AM
I have been voting Bosh since #2 (I have Dirk #1, Pau #3, Duncan #4), so Imma vote him here again. I hope that HEAT hate doesn't scew this poll.

Heater4life
08-30-2010, 10:47 AM
Bosh. Has shown ability to produce despite being the absolute focus of all defenses playing the Raptors. Has an excellent mid-range game, with an array of moves (fade away, step back jumper, etc..). Under rated ball handler for his size.

Given his competition for 4th he is the most well rounded. I doubt Amare's ability to create without Nash and believe he will be crushed when defenses go into a zone now that Nash isnt there to disect the D.

DaBUU
08-30-2010, 10:54 AM
Chris Bosh

pebloemer
08-30-2010, 11:30 AM
I've thought about it, looked through some stats and arguments and I think I have my pick. I was hoping to go against the grain on this one because of the different elements each player brings to the game, but I have to go with Bosh. I'm going to give his defense the benefit of the doubt as I watched Bargnani's missed rotations and Calderon's blow by's all year long. I've seen him lock in defensively in the past and believe he will be a far better defender and far better focused on the Heat. I expect we will see a highly efficient offensive player and a smart focused defensive player for the Heat next year.

JordansBulls
08-30-2010, 11:38 AM
I don't see how this is Bosh. He can't even get into the playoffs as the best player on his team in the Eastern Conference.

Raidaz4Life
08-30-2010, 11:40 AM
I have been voting Bosh since #2 (I have Dirk #1, Pau #3, Duncan #4), so Imma vote him here again. I hope that HEAT hate doesn't scew this poll.

I actually think those rankings are dead on and thats exactly the way I would have voted them.

KnicksR4Real
08-30-2010, 11:41 AM
If you match the two up, which would be fair to do in the situation amare would win.

KnicksR4Real
08-30-2010, 11:42 AM
If you want to got technical, a PF stands for Power Forward. Chris Bosh, has little power.

pebloemer
08-30-2010, 11:47 AM
If you match the two up, which would be fair to do in the situation amare would win.

How would you determine the winner? The one who's team won? The one who scored more points? The one who rebounded more? The one who defended better? The one who communicated more? The one who blocked more shots? The one who was more physical? The one who shot a better FG%? Etc, etc etc?

xILLN355
08-30-2010, 11:53 AM
Chris Bosh

VinceCarter
08-30-2010, 11:54 AM
Bosh's numbers are going to drop enough this year that I don't think he'll be the #4 PF in the league.

Hustlenomics
08-30-2010, 11:57 AM
Kg's impact doesn't show up on the boxscore

todu82
08-30-2010, 12:06 PM
Amare Stoudemire

Sadds The Gr8
08-30-2010, 12:06 PM
The piece of **** twitter using ******.

Antipod
08-30-2010, 12:15 PM
Pippen v.3 seems to be winning this

Gators123
08-30-2010, 12:16 PM
Bosh

Law25
08-30-2010, 12:24 PM
I think Stat is going to have an hell of an year and prove his worth. He is on one of the biggest stages in basketball with an decent cast around him and an few more moves or pick ups and watch out for New York.

Swashcuff
08-30-2010, 12:32 PM
This IS Bosh IMO

But I'm going to continue singing the same old tune..... oh how times have changed

Really shows how you really cant take these polls seriously

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums...d.php?t=509654

^^^ apparently time has healed the hate

Heater4life
08-30-2010, 12:35 PM
I don't see how this is Bosh. He can't even get into the playoffs as the best player on his team in the Eastern Conference.

Yea but if were going to make that argument, then one could argue that Pau and KG didnt make the playoffs numerous times being the best players on there previous teams. Thus, is that really a just way to measure talent?

Hustlenomics
08-30-2010, 12:40 PM
Yea but if were going to make that argument, then one could argue that Pau and KG didnt make the playoffs numerous times being the best players on there previous teams. Thus, is that really a just way to measure talent?

don't put pau in the same sentence with kg when kg made conference finals on the wolves

Evolution23
08-30-2010, 12:42 PM
Bosh hasn't done anything so why does he get mentoned here?

Chronz
08-30-2010, 12:46 PM
Isnt it hilarious that a year ago NO WAY was Bosh better than Pau now Bosh has his best season ever, Gasol stays the same and now Gasol is seen as the no brainer.


don't put pau in the same sentence with kg when kg made conference finals on the wolves
KG also missed the playoffs. I dont get why you still try to credit team accomplishments to an individual when that individual has proven that the team accomplishment can be drastically different regardless of his presence. I mean did KG get any worse as a player when he missed the playoffs? NOPE thats why you CAN compare the 2.

Hustlenomics
08-30-2010, 12:47 PM
Isnt it hilarious that a year ago NO WAY was Bosh better than Pau now Bosh has his best season ever, Gasol stays the same and now Gasol is seen as the no brainer.


KG also missed the playoffs. I dont get why you still try to credit team accomplishments to an individual when that individual has proven that the team accomplishment can be drastically different regardless of his presence. I mean did KG get any worse as a player when he missed the playoffs? NOPE thats why you CAN compare the 2.

prime kg>prime pau

Jays Claw
08-30-2010, 12:47 PM
I'll go with Bosh here. Although you can't go wrong with Stoudemire either.

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 12:48 PM
i'm surprised bosh is getting so many more votes than amar'e. i know people don't like the knicks but c'mon. nobody can stop amare in the paint. if he was on the suns still he would've already been on this list.

PlezPlayDKnicks
08-30-2010, 12:49 PM
Its ok.. I cant wait for Amare to prove that he can produce without nash. Bosh is great and has youth on his side along with the super friends. But if i had a choice to pick between the two and they were the only star im getting. It would be Amare short term and Bosh long term. Bosh IMO couldnt handle NY by himself. Not that he shouldve chose that route. Im just sayin. I still think the heat would be scarier with Amare.. They would be the 3 most physically dominant at their positions.

Heater4life
08-30-2010, 12:50 PM
Bosh hasn't done anything so why does he get mentoned here?

Several reasons: A) His skill set is not only one of a top 5 PF but it is also one that fits in symbioticly with D-Wade and Lebron. He has great touch and range on his shot. Has an arsenal of step back and fade away jumpers, as well as an array of spin and up-and-under moves. He is not physical, but as a finesse player there are very few in this league like him.

B) Those skill sets mentioned above in combination with a pick and roll heavy offense bold well for Bosh. Bosh can also run the floor on fast breaks, something which will be seen lots in Miami.

We must remember he will be a third option in Miami. Chris Bosh will not be seeing double/triple teams anymore. Taking into consideration that his P.E.R is top 5 in the league, we can assume he will produce with defenses shifting towards the other stars.

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 12:50 PM
Bosh hasn't done anything so why does he get mentoned here?

AGREED. amar'e was tearing up the playoffs last season. he had a great second half to the regular season too.

Chronz
08-30-2010, 12:51 PM
prime kg>prime pau

Yup but its definitely not for the reasons you gave nor does it take away from the point that guy was making. In fact youve only helped his cause.

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 12:53 PM
Its ok.. I cant wait for Amare to prove that he can produce without nash. Bosh is great and has youth on his side along with the super friends. But if i had a choice to pick between the two and they were the only star im getting. It would be Amare short term and Bosh long term. Bosh IMO couldnt handle NY by himself. Not that he shouldve chose that route. Im just sayin. I still think the heat would be scarier with Amare.. They would be the 3 most physically dominant at their positions.

scarier, yes. better, maybe.

Heater4life
08-30-2010, 12:54 PM
Its ok.. I cant wait for Amare to prove that he can produce without nash. Bosh is great and has youth on his side along with the super friends. But if i had a choice to pick between the two and they were the only star im getting. It would be Amare short term and Bosh long term. Bosh IMO couldnt handle NY by himself. Not that he shouldve chose that route. Im just sayin. I still think the heat would be scarier with Amare.. They would be the 3 most physically dominant at their positions.

A bunch of us Heat fans debated for a while Amare v Bosh. I personally thought Bosh would be the better fit due to his ability to stretch the floor a bit better. Dont get me wrong, Amare can hit the open J, but i dont trust his shot nor his range as much as i do Bosh. Now in terms of taking it to the hole, Amare takes the cake. but for what we have have in the leagues two best slashers i prefer a PF with better range/touch.

John Walls Era
08-30-2010, 12:55 PM
Its ok.. I cant wait for Amare to prove that he can produce without nash. Bosh is great and has youth on his side along with the super friends. But if i had a choice to pick between the two and they were the only star im getting. It would be Amare short term and Bosh long term. Bosh IMO couldnt handle NY by himself. Not that he shouldve chose that route. Im just sayin. I still think the heat would be scarier with Amare.. They would be the 3 most physically dominant at their positions.

Not really scarier. I rather play the Heat if they had Amare. I could live with Amare shooting jumpers.

Hustlenomics
08-30-2010, 12:58 PM
it's funny how opinions change so fast http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509654

Yup but its definitely not for the reasons you gave nor does it take away from the point that guy was making. In fact youve only helped his cause.

my post just shows kg was more of a leader and BETTER

JordansBulls
08-30-2010, 12:59 PM
Yea but if were going to make that argument, then one could argue that Pau and KG didnt make the playoffs numerous times being the best players on there previous teams. Thus, is that really a just way to measure talent?

Again, Gasol was leading teams to 49 and 50 wins, while Bosh was barely doing anything in the east.

Hustlenomics
08-30-2010, 01:02 PM
Not really scarier. I rather play the Heat if they had Amare. I could live with Amare shooting jumpers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUQh1V2qpZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqc1MNA3GZ0

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 01:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUQh1V2qpZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqc1MNA3GZ0

LMAO bosh got completely annihilated. on the other one amar'e was cherry pickin though.

masalex1205
08-30-2010, 01:05 PM
Bosh

ChiSox219
08-30-2010, 01:06 PM
4. Bosh
5. Smith
6. Boozer

xbrackattackx
08-30-2010, 01:06 PM
Amare all day!

Swashcuff
08-30-2010, 01:10 PM
it's funny how opinions change so fast http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509654


yup!!!!

Hustlenomics
08-30-2010, 01:12 PM
LMAO bosh got completely annihilated. on the other one amar'e was cherry pickin though.

what Pierce did after the dunk made it funnier to me

Rivera
08-30-2010, 01:12 PM
im going with amare over bosh


gosh darnitt just watching the games i rather have bosh then amare

sometimes it just dont seem like bosh has a backbone and i know amare dont play much defense either and he should be a better rebounder than what he is but i know ive watched him in the playoffs the past few years and at least he tries to block a shot here n there

I want to pick KG sooooo bad for the leader that he is n the defensive intensity he brings but at this stage of KGs career i think its safe to say amare n bosh r better than kg but if i want to win 1 game ima pick KG

damn this is harder for me than i thought amare has better win shares than bosh and a better true shooting percentage and a better efficent field goal percentage than bosh

so amare > bosh

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 01:13 PM
Again, Gasol was leading teams to 49 and 50 wins, while Bosh was barely doing anything in the east.

yea but now he's with the big 3 and everyone forgets how mediocre his time at toronto was. amare should win this. he wont, but he should.

Rivera
08-30-2010, 01:14 PM
it's funny how opinions change so fast http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509654

hahaha gold star for ur research my dude

Heater4life
08-30-2010, 01:21 PM
Again, Gasol was leading teams to 49 and 50 wins, while Bosh was barely doing anything in the east.

Yes but were trying to judge a players individual talents as opposed to judging there previous teams. The raptors won 47 games in 07 and went into the playoffs as the thrid seed in the east. Not exactly horrible. Then all those pieces were dismantled.

When a player is averaging 24ppg, 10rpg, AND (very important) is top 5 in player efficiency, i hardly think you can blame him for his teams W/L record. These guys can only do so much.

Sox72
08-30-2010, 01:23 PM
How the hell is Gasol #1 on this list?!?!? This can't be serious.

samevans7
08-30-2010, 01:24 PM
My opinion of top PFs for 2010-11:

1. Dirk- imo obv. best choice. 25+ppg=beast. can play all over the floor on offense
2. Amare- too powerful to not be at number 2. huge power threat inside.
3. KG- best defensive player, by a lot. and his stats will be MUUCH higher if he wasnt part of the BIG 3. KG w/ Boston>CB4 w/ Miami
4. Bosh- good w/ toronto, but his stats will drop to around 17 ppg. and his defense isnt that good
5. Pau- not powerful at all. he's more of an inside shooting SF man than a PF... a PF should be strong and good at D (aka Amare and KG). The only reason Dirk doesnt fall lower due to what i've said here, is bc Dirk scores like crazy, but also, he leads his team to the playoffs EVERY year.

The rankings will change, drastically next year:

2011-12 PF rankings IMO

1. Dirk
2. Amare
3. Al Jefferson (he is better than Boozer imo, he will do great as a#2 option w/ the #2 PG)
4. KG
5. Pau
6. Boozer
7. Bosh (his low stats will hurt him tons)

Chronz
08-30-2010, 01:32 PM
it's funny how opinions change so fast http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509654


my post just shows kg was more of a leader and BETTER

Actually your post showed nothing of the sort, and yes I know what you were trying to say but that has absolutely nothing to do with his post.



Again, Gasol was leading teams to 49 and 50 wins, while Bosh was barely doing anything in the east.
What about KG?

samevans7
08-30-2010, 01:34 PM
The raptors won 47 games in 07 and went into the playoffs as the thrid seed in the east. Not exactly horrible. Then all those pieces were dismantled.
.

or because the east was awful at the time.

Boston was big 3-less, and orlando was an 8 seed.

and "pieces were dismantled."? they lost Mo-Pete, luke jackson, uros slokar, pj tucker, and pape sow. they added jamario moon, jason kapono, Primos brezec, maceo baston, and linton johnson.

how is that much different? peterson, the best player lost, averaged 8.9 ppg. Moon comes in, and averages 8.5 ppg


HOW IS THAT "DISMANTLED"?!!

the year later, actually, they did better. more wins, more ppg scored, less ppg allowed. its just that with boston, detroit, orlando, and cleveland, toronto seemed worse and became a 6 seed (washington was #5)

Jays Claw
08-30-2010, 01:45 PM
5. Pau - not powerful at all. he's more of an inside shooting SF man than a PF... a PF should be strong and good at D (aka Amare and KG).

How could you possibly say that KG and Stoudemire are better defenders than Pau? (DRtg - KG: 101 vs. Stoudemire: 109 vs. Pau: 102) & (DWS - KG: 3.8 vs. Stoudemire: 2.5 vs. Pau: 4.2). Clearly as you can see, Pau is greatly better than Stoudemire and just slightly ahead of KG.


The only reason Dirk doesnt fall lower due to what i've said here, is bc Dirk scores like crazy, but also, he leads his team to the playoffs EVERY year.

Since you want to talk about team accomplishments, I'll do so too. Over these last 2-3 years, Pau has been a major part of his team. He has also lead his team to the best record, the playoffs, the WCF and the finals. And to top it all off, he's won two rings in the process.

What has Dirk done? Lead his team to a top three record while getting his *** kicked in the first round? :laugh2:


2011-12 PF rankings IMO

1. Dirk
2. Amare
3. Al Jefferson (he is better than Boozer imo, he will do great as a#2 option w/ the #2 PG)
4. KG
5. Pau
6. Boozer
7. Bosh (his low stats will hurt him tons)

I'm sorry, but your future list is ban worthy. :facepalm:

Hustlenomics
08-30-2010, 01:53 PM
^ lol @ ban worthy

Actually your post showed nothing of the sort, and yes I know what you were trying to say but that has absolutely nothing to do with his post.



What about KG?

either way prime kg is better than pau

CavsYanksDuke
08-30-2010, 02:05 PM
Bosh

IrespectNumber3
08-30-2010, 02:22 PM
Actually your post showed nothing of the sort, and yes I know what you were trying to say but that has absolutely nothing to do with his post.



What about KG?

Pau went 22-60 with the Grizzles the year before he got traded, the playoff years were because of Jason Williams/Battier and a Healthy Mike Miller.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2007.html

People who try to credit team success as individual player success is just absolutely ridiculous.

Who is the 4th best PF, I can understand why people say Amare over Bosh or Bosh over Amare. This is pretty much arguable. Whats not arguable is people who think Josh Smith/Boozer/KG belong in this conversation, but there all close at 6/7/8

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 02:29 PM
I think Bosh is a better player, but I voted Amare, I think he will have a much great role in the upcoming season, individually.
KG is not very good offensively anymore, and doesn't create the seperation defensively to rate him this high at this point. Watching him get no lift on that fadeaway during the finals did it for me. You are in decline, big time, Mr. Garnett

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 02:31 PM
^ lol @ ban worthy


either way prime kg is better than pau

no argument can be made stating Gasol is better than KG in their primes. But KG is no longer near his prime, and Gasol is. If anything, its a testament to how great KG was. Even in sharp decline, he is still talked about as a top 4 PF. Gasol at that many games played will be out of the conversation by a good distance

thekmp211
08-30-2010, 02:35 PM
amare was a better player than bosh for the second half of last year. he will get the chance to be explosive and his scoring will always be needed. i'd expect bosh to put up absurdly efficient numbers. it's a wash, they are similar players with similar limitations.

if either guy was half the defender kg was they'd be truly great.

pebloemer
08-30-2010, 02:42 PM
Pau went 22-60 with the Grizzles the year before he got traded, the playoff years were because of Jason Williams/Battier and a Healthy Mike Miller.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2007.html

People who try to credit team success as individual player success is just absolutely ridiculous.

I have 0 clue what you are trying to say with this. The 3 seasons prior, Gasol led Memphis to the playoffs; once leading them to a 50 win season and another time to a 49 win season. You chose the 22 win season to highlight, stating they fell off because of losses to Williams and Battier and Miller's health, but I would think Pau missing the first 23 games of the season would have signficance there. Especially if 2 role players and Miller missing only 12 games have significance.

I do agree that players should be evaluated separate to team success, but at some point the context of team success should be taken into account. If you are trying to show that Gasol's team success in Memphis was due to his supporting cast, I agree it plays a role; but if you are trying to diminish Gasol's impact on the team success of Memphis I strongly question the logic.

lavilevi23
08-30-2010, 03:19 PM
Bosh

Bruno
08-30-2010, 03:20 PM
Call me crazy but Josh Smith. He had the highest regular season PER (21) on the entire Hawks team, and was 2nd in win shares.

3.7 combined steals+ blocks per game, plus 4.2 apg as a PF?

5.1 defensive win shares for that season? That nearly triples Boshs and Amares.. He also tripples Amare when it comes to APG, and he doubles Bosh in the same category.

He is argueably the most athletic at his position, one of the best passer, and one of the better defenders at PF. Just my opinion of corse.

Also, he will have better fantasy numbers than any of these guys with the exception to Amare (if Amare averages well over 25 ppg)

REALLYYYYY?
08-30-2010, 03:22 PM
Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Boozer 2009-10 28 78 2673 21.3 .599 .562 8.2 29.9 19.4 15.8 1.6 1.1 14.3 24.8 112 102 5.3 4.6 9.9 0.178
2 Bosh 2009-10 25 70 2526 25.0 .592 .522 9.9 25.2 17.7 11.5 0.9 2.1 10.7 28.7 117 111 7.9 1.7 9.6 0.182
3 Garnett 2009-10 33 69 2060 19.4 .569 .521 4.8 24.8 15.1 15.7 1.7 2.2 10.4 22.1 112 101 3.6 3.8 7.3 0.171
4 Amare 2009-10 27 82 2838 22.6 .615 .557 9.7 18.9 14.5 4.8 0.9 2.1 12.1 27.3 117 109 8.2 2.5 10.7 0.181



Going statistically, Boozer is a lot closer than we all think..

Leads all these guys in steals, assists, rebounds, and field goal percentage. His TS% is a tiny bit more than Bosh's but his efficiency is 21.3, 3rd among the group. Boozer's defensive rating is also 2nd best behind KG.

I know for a fact Boozer isn't going to win this, it'll come down to Bosh vs. Amare but I'm going to go with Boozer to distinguish myself from the masses.

exactly. amare sure does get a lot of hype though...probably because he is more exciting to watch. but that does not make him better than boozer.

IrespectNumber3
08-30-2010, 03:22 PM
I have 0 clue what you are trying to say with this. The 3 seasons prior, Gasol led Memphis to the playoffs; once leading them to a 50 win season and another time to a 49 win season. You chose the 22 win season to highlight, stating they fell off because of losses to Williams and Battier and Miller's health, but I would think Pau missing the first 23 games of the season would have signficance there. Especially if 2 role players and Miller missing only 12 games have significance.

I do agree that players should be evaluated separate to team success, but at some point the context of team success should be taken into account. If you are trying to show that Gasol's team success in Memphis was due to his supporting cast, I agree it plays a role; but if you are trying to diminish Gasol's impact on the team success of Memphis I strongly question the logic.

Of course Gasol played a huge role on that team I'm not knocking that, what I'm trying to say is can we really use records to tell the tale of tape? No Every top PF has played on different types of teams. You can't look at a few stats and standings to say which player is better.

In my opinion you have to WATCH THE GAMES, have a good memory of playoff series, and then use statistics to say this guy is better then this guy.

I've seen Gasol dominate and take over "important" games, I've seen Amare take over "important" games. I haven't seen Bosh dominate "important" games but then again did he get the opportunity to?

I think next year alot of these "comparisons" will be alot more valid.

REALLYYYYY?
08-30-2010, 03:27 PM
i'm surprised bosh is getting so many more votes than amar'e. i know people don't like the knicks but c'mon. nobody can stop amare in the paint. if he was on the suns still he would've already been on this list.

for me, it has nothing to do with him being on the knicks and everything to do with him being the 6th or 7th best pf.

REALLYYYYY?
08-30-2010, 03:30 PM
Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Boozer 2009-10 28 78 2673 21.3 .599 .562 8.2 29.9 19.4 15.8 1.6 1.1 14.3 24.8 112 102 5.3 4.6 9.9 0.178
2 Bosh 2009-10 25 70 2526 25.0 .592 .522 9.9 25.2 17.7 11.5 0.9 2.1 10.7 28.7 117 111 7.9 1.7 9.6 0.182
3 Garnett 2009-10 33 69 2060 19.4 .569 .521 4.8 24.8 15.1 15.7 1.7 2.2 10.4 22.1 112 101 3.6 3.8 7.3 0.171
4 Amare 2009-10 27 82 2838 22.6 .615 .557 9.7 18.9 14.5 4.8 0.9 2.1 12.1 27.3 117 109 8.2 2.5 10.7 0.181



Going statistically, Boozer is a lot closer than we all think..

Leads all these guys in steals, assists, rebounds, and field goal percentage. His TS% is a tiny bit more than Bosh's but his efficiency is 21.3, 3rd among the group. Boozer's defensive rating is also 2nd best behind KG.

I know for a fact Boozer isn't going to win this, it'll come down to Bosh vs. Amare but I'm going to go with Boozer to distinguish myself from the masses.

regarding these stats, i wanna see reasons why people are choosing bosh and amare over boozer. i would not necessarily definitely say they are wrong to do so but i would like to at least see some reasoning from many of the people who are simply saying bosh or amare without any explanation.

pebloemer
08-30-2010, 03:32 PM
Of course Gasol played a huge role on that team I'm not knocking that, what I'm trying to say is can we really use records to tell the tale of tape? No Every top PF has played on different types of teams. You can't look at a few stats and standings to say which player is better.

In my opinion you have to WATCH THE GAMES, have a good memory of playoff series, and then use statistics to say this guy is better then this guy.

I've seen Gasol dominate and take over "important" games, I've seen Amare take over "important" games. I haven't seen Bosh dominate "important" games but then again did he get the opportunity to?

I think next year alot of these "comparisons" will be alot more valid.

I think all that is fair.

I followed your discussion, but was unsure what your point was in bringing up Memphis' record. It seemed like an attack on Gasol for the poor record and I didn't agree with your reasoning.

As someone who has watched Bosh for the past 7 years, I can say he has had the opportunity to dominate important games and often disappeared. Most of these were in his younger career though. As he has developed as a player, his opportunities to dominate important games has dwindled. Frankly his team has gotten worse and more frustrating. Now he is in a position where he won't need to dominate important games. I'm not sure it will ever be easy to have a good read on him. One projection I will make for next season though, is that he will be far far better defensively, playing beside LeBron and Wade each night.

IrespectNumber3
08-30-2010, 03:49 PM
I think all that is fair.

I followed your discussion, but was unsure what your point was in bringing up Memphis' record. It seemed like an attack on Gasol for the poor record and I didn't agree with your reasoning.

As someone who has watched Bosh for the past 7 years, I can say he has had the opportunity to dominate important games and often disappeared. Most of these were in his younger career though. As he has developed as a player, his opportunities to dominate important games has dwindled. Frankly his team has gotten worse and more frustrating. Now he is in a position where he won't need to dominate important games. I'm not sure it will ever be easy to have a good read on him. One projection I will make for next season though, is that he will be far far better defensively, playing beside LeBron and Wade each night.

Your right, I think Amare is better than Bosh but Amare isn't as consistent or as complete as Bosh. If im playing to win an NBA championship I'm more worried about Amar'e wearing down then Bosh.

Amare at his Best is better then Bosh at his Best.
But Bosh you know exactly what he is going to give you on a nightly basis. I feel safer with Bosh. Amare needs to be more consistent, hopefully he can with the Knicks

Chronz
08-30-2010, 03:52 PM
Pau went 22-60 with the Grizzles the year before he got traded, the playoff years were because of Jason Williams/Battier and a Healthy Mike Miller.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2007.html

People who try to credit team success as individual player success is just absolutely ridiculous.
Thats the point I was getting at. But what do you mean because of them? It was because of the collective contributions of them all. Thats the greater point here. Its not absurd to credit team success to individuals and as such you can fault them for the lack of success. Just not to the point JB was at where he faulted Bosh for not making the playoffs as his teams best man. As if any of that faulted Gasol or KG when they were missing the playoffs.


I have 0 clue what you are trying to say with this. The 3 seasons prior, Gasol led Memphis to the playoffs; once leading them to a 50 win season and another time to a 49 win season. You chose the 22 win season to highlight, stating they fell off because of losses to Williams and Battier and Miller's health, but I would think Pau missing the first 23 games of the season would have signficance there. Especially if 2 role players and Miller missing only 12 games have significance.

I do agree that players should be evaluated separate to team success, but at some point the context of team success should be taken into account. If you are trying to show that Gasol's team success in Memphis was due to his supporting cast, I agree it plays a role; but if you are trying to diminish Gasol's impact on the team success of Memphis I strongly question the logic.
Yup

Antipod
08-30-2010, 04:02 PM
CB by ~40 votes ... a little bit too much

Testaverde16
08-30-2010, 04:05 PM
i think this has to go to bosh, though it might not be him.

MackSnackWrap
08-30-2010, 04:06 PM
Bosh is better than amare and pau

Jays Claw
08-30-2010, 04:08 PM
Bosh is better than amare and pau

Could explain as to how he's better than Pau?

Avenged
08-30-2010, 04:08 PM
regarding these stats, i wanna see reasons why people are choosing bosh and amare over boozer. i would not necessarily definitely say they are wrong to do so but i would like to at least see some reasoning from many of the people who are simply saying bosh or amare without any explanation.

Bosh actually has a legitimate case for himself. I wouldn't be mad if he wins this spot, it's well deserved.

Bosh, Amare, and Boozer do some aspects of the game differently better than others. You really can't go wrong with any depending on what you take into account in ranking a player.

I just went with Boozer because he really does have a case for himself and is extremely underrated. Even more so now that he's a Bull, we all know how much hate their fan base generates.

KeithLBC
08-30-2010, 04:19 PM
Kevin Garnett. IMO, if his knee isn't bothering him, overall he's better than anyone else on the list.

Ebbs
08-30-2010, 04:25 PM
Bosh but then Boozer over stat. And defs Boozer and Amare over KG now...

Baller1
08-30-2010, 04:30 PM
I'll take Amare.

Jewelz0376
08-30-2010, 04:34 PM
I voted for Bosh

I would say on offense its a push..one may be better than the other but its not to big of a difference...

On defender its a push also...neither one of them play any D..same as above one may play better did than the other but its pretty close..

The main reason for my vote was the rebounding...Bosh actually rebounds well for his position while Amare is a horrible rebounder...

DoJoTheSlasher
08-30-2010, 04:36 PM
In terms of talent, Bosh. In terms of a championship player who wins games, Garnett.

I voted for Bosh but I am actually re-thinking that decision, for Garnett.

KG can't really score anymore but ha can sure rebound and is still a top 5 defensive player in the game.

save the knicks
08-30-2010, 04:38 PM
So if Nash made Amare does that mean Deron made Boozer?

Hustlenomics
08-30-2010, 04:49 PM
Kevin Garnett. IMO, if his knee isn't bothering him, overall he's better than anyone else on the list.

^

PlezPlayDKnicks
08-30-2010, 04:52 PM
Bosh wouldn't have the edge on Amare stat wise defensively out west. Amare has been dominant out West and has proven himself when the west has had the best power forwards for years. Bosh while GREAT would not be the same player going against the best power forwards in the game 4 times per season instead of twice per year.And for those who use the Nash argument check to see how big the difference is on assisted baskets.

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 04:52 PM
Kevin Garnett. IMO, if his knee isn't bothering him, overall he's better than anyone else on the list.

well, he just doesn't have the explosion or lift anymore, and he misses games, period. So while agree, in a perfect world without injuries, KG is better than anyone left on this list. But he will again miss 15+ games, and just isn't the one on one scorer he once was at all anymore. His defensive effect is still very high, so one could easily argue he belongs here

Cano4prez
08-30-2010, 04:54 PM
Bosh but then Boozer over stat. And defs Boozer and Amare over KG now...

This

PlezPlayDKnicks
08-30-2010, 05:03 PM
I'm just saying Bosh has fed off Lee,Horford,Smith,Jamison, Garnett,Gibson,and all the other solid pf out east..

Compare that to what Amare has to face 4 times per year and of course the def numbers will favor Bosh.. Offensively Amare is more dominant. Defensively they both are average at best. Bosh disappears, and Amare does not in big games. Bosh is just clearly a better rebounder.

Swashcuff
08-30-2010, 05:07 PM
No one has answered my question yet.... Why is Bosh suddenly getting so much love/respect? Wasn't he the same player a month ago or did he drastically improve because some (idiotic) posters said he wasn't even a top 10 PF. Now we're voting him right where he should rightfully be at #4. Whats up with that?

save the knicks
08-30-2010, 05:16 PM
No one has answered my question yet.... Why is Bosh suddenly getting so much love/respect? Wasn't he the same player a month ago or did he drastically improve because some (idiotic) posters said he wasn't even a top 10 PF. Now we're voting him right where he should rightfully be at #4. Whats up with that?

Wild guess: Miami bandwagoners combined with NY haters!

edit i actually clicked the link and realized its from after the decision. Also, in doing so ive found that your reading comprehension is off.


With so many people having Bosh as one of the best pfs and everybody ignoring what Amare did the second half of the season. Who do yaw think will have the better season.

jim51990
08-30-2010, 05:17 PM
who are the idiots voting for boozer hes shouldnt even be considered before 7

Swashcuff
08-30-2010, 05:19 PM
Wild guess: Miami bandwagoners combined with NY haters!

thats wrong bro. I mean look at the numbers. Huge part to do with it but i dont think thats all there has got to be something more to this

REALLYYYYY?
08-30-2010, 05:22 PM
Bosh actually has a legitimate case for himself. I wouldn't be mad if he wins this spot, it's well deserved.

Bosh, Amare, and Boozer do some aspects of the game differently better than others. You really can't go wrong with any depending on what you take into account in ranking a player.

I just went with Boozer because he really does have a case for himself and is extremely underrated. Even more so now that he's a Bull, we all know how much hate their fan base generates.

i agree.

and lol, why do people hate bulls fans?

save the knicks
08-30-2010, 05:22 PM
thats wrong bro. I mean look at the numbers. Huge part to do with it but i dont think thats all there has got to be something more to this

The answer is that these polls are asking different questions

When you take a poll how you word the question can have a heavy influence on the results

PlezPlayDKnicks
08-30-2010, 05:24 PM
If Bosh stayed in Toronto he wouldn't be getting this much love. I believe that if Bosh played his career out West he'd be in the same class as the 2nd tier Pf like West and Boozer. BUT being that he is young and his shelf life will be extended by playing with Bron and Wade his numbers will decline but eventually he should be the best pf in the game only because he should win a few rings and it can't be proven that another pf coulda filled his spot and won.

sargon21
08-30-2010, 05:26 PM
i went with bosh here, but boozer>amare

Slimsim
08-30-2010, 05:40 PM
i went with bosh here, but boozer>amare

homer

TheWatcher34
08-30-2010, 05:47 PM
i went with bosh here, but boozer>amare

why do bulls fans never have any sense of objectivity whatsoever... ???

greek miami hea
08-30-2010, 05:52 PM
Bosh IMO should have been number one. It would be crazy if he doesn't win this.

this

beasted86
08-30-2010, 06:23 PM
Here's my problem...

You continue to rank Duncan as a PF, but I guarantee you will throw Horford, Lee, and Jefferson into the Center rankings. :pity:

beasted86
08-30-2010, 06:28 PM
If Bosh stayed in Toronto he wouldn't be getting this much love. I believe that if Bosh played his career out West he'd be in the same class as the 2nd tier Pf like West and Boozer. BUT being that he is young and his shelf life will be extended by playing with Bron and Wade his numbers will decline but eventually he should be the best pf in the game only because he should win a few rings and it can't be proven that another pf coulda filled his spot and won.


David West and Boozer play with top 15 NBA players and the #1 & #2 PGs in the NBA, I'll throw Amare in this group as well seeing as he plays with Nash (arguably the #3 PG). Who has Bosh played with the last 7 seasons?

Vince Carter for his rookie year?
TJ Ford & Jose Calderon? Jarret Jack?
:facepalm:

Bosh > Amare/Boozer/West/etc...

save the knicks
08-30-2010, 06:40 PM
Bosh > Amare/Boozer/West/etc...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=boozeca01&p2=stoudam01

You're now aware that Amare has been abusing Boozer for years

Jays Claw
08-30-2010, 06:50 PM
Bosh IMO should have been number one. It would be crazy if he doesn't win this.

I'd like to know your reasoning to him being #1. What has he done to deserve a spot ahed of Pau, Dirk and Duncan?

REALLYYYYY?
08-30-2010, 06:52 PM
homer

hypocrite much, knicks fan?

what about the stats presented by Avenged24 on the first page? what reasoning do you have for amare being better?

REALLYYYYY?
08-30-2010, 06:53 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=boozeca01&p2=stoudam01

You're now aware that Amare has been abusing Boozer for years

what about the stats presented by Avenged24 on the first page? what reasoning other than highlights do you have for amare being better?

REALLYYYYY?
08-30-2010, 06:56 PM
why do bulls fans never have any sense of objectivity whatsoever... ???

wow. none whatsoever? because he/she said boozer is better than amare?

what about the stats presented by Avenged24 on the first page? what reasoning do you have for amare being better, especially so much better that it would lead you to believe that someone has no objectivity whatsoever if they believe otherwise?

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 06:59 PM
wow. none whatsoever? because he/she said boozer is better than amare?

what about the stats presented by Avenged24 on the first page? what reasoning do you have for amare being better, especially so much better that it would lead you to believe that someone has no objectivity whatsoever if they believe otherwise?

you said that 3 times. we get it. amare crushed every PF he played against in the west. i can't wait to see what he does in the east.

greg_ory_2005
08-30-2010, 07:05 PM
I'll go with Bosh.

REALLYYYYY?
08-30-2010, 07:13 PM
you said that 3 times. we get it. amare crushed every PF he played against in the west. i can't wait to see what he does in the east.

you are good at counting. i had three different people to reply to. thanks for finally giving me some sort of an answer: amare crushed every PF he played against in the west. i was unaware that this was the case. it would be nice to see some documentation on that but i personally don't have time to go back and look up the various matches between amare and other PFs and how they went so i guess i'll just have to take your word for it for now. i must say i am highly skeptical though.

save the knicks
08-30-2010, 07:16 PM
what about the stats presented by Avenged24 on the first page? what reasoning other than highlights do you have for amare being better?

Highlights? whaat?

That is a link to every game that Boozer and Amare have played against each other.

Amare has pretty much dominated Boozer his entire career! The numbers get even more skewed to Amare in the post season.

Jays Claw
08-30-2010, 07:19 PM
What reasoning do you have for amare being better?

I sure have statistical reasons as to why Stoudemire was better than Bosh last year.

Stoudemire vs. Bosh

(ORtg - 117 vs. 117), (TS% - .615% vs. .592%), (eFG% - .557% vs. .522%), (OWS - 8.2 vs. 7.9), (DWS - 2.5 vs. 1.7), (DRtg - 109 vs. 111), (WS - 10.7 vs. 9.6) & (PER - 22.6 vs. 25.0).

save the knicks
08-30-2010, 07:20 PM
you are good at counting. i had three different people to reply to. thanks for finally giving me some sort of an answer: amare crushed every PF he played against in the west. i was unaware that this was the case. it would be nice to see some documentation on that but i personally don't have time to go back and look up the various matches between amare and other PFs and how they went so i guess i'll just have to take your word for it for now. i must say i am highly skeptical though.

See now if you actually clicked my link you would find a very nice tool that makes these things take literally 30 seconds max

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 07:20 PM
you are good at counting. i had three different people to reply to. thanks for finally giving me some sort of an answer: amare crushed every PF he played against in the west. i was unaware that this was the case. it would be nice to see some documentation on that but i personally don't have time to go back and look up the various matches between amare and other PFs and how they went so i guess i'll just have to take your word for it for now. i must say i am highly skeptical though.

if you wanna talk stats, amare's stats are arguably better than dirks; dirk got the 2 spot. these lists are as inaccurate as rondo on the free throw line.

Swashcuff
08-30-2010, 07:22 PM
if you wanna talk stats, amare's stats are arguably better than dirks; dirk got the 2 spot. these lists are as inaccurate as rondo on the free throw line.

what the hell stats are you even watching?

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 07:23 PM
what the hell stats are you even watching?

go to the career stats and look nubnub.

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 07:24 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=boshch01&y1=2010&p2=boozeca01&y2=2010&p3=garneke01&y3=2010&p4=stoudam01&y4=2010

I left out Smith since you can only pick 4 players. KG is way behind in PER nowadays. He is still an elite defender, but his offense is way behind Boozer, Bosh, and Amare, and the main reason for this is his offensive rebounding and passing ability, contribution wise, is a shell of his prime. While is defensive presence is still that of an elite defender, he just doesn't have a dominant effect on the offensive side of the floor anymore. His win shares per 48 are last of the 4, even with his defense being the best of the group.

Its really between Amare and Bosh here. Going into next season, I would expect Amare's PER to be better, due to more shot creation, but Bosh may end up with more win shares, and I truly expect Bosh's defensive prowess to grow since his offensive role will be reduced, and he is playing for the Heat now, which is an organization known for defense.

If we base this off last season, its a tossup between Bosh and Amare. Going into next season, Amare will produce at a bigger clip due to need.

Which is why I voted Amare, Bosh will be next, then KG, then Boozer (too up and down for me to overlook)

save the knicks
08-30-2010, 07:24 PM
This is now a Boozer vs Amare thread

REALLYYYYY?
08-30-2010, 07:25 PM
Highlights? whaat?

That is a link to every game that Boozer and Amare have played against each other.

Amare has pretty much dominated Boozer his entire career! The numbers get even more skewed to Amare in the post season.

lol, my bad. i'm in a bit of a hurry and should not even be on psd right now so i did not even look at the link and just figured it was a link to highlights because people often seem to just post the stats in their message. anyway, thanks for finally being someone to give some stats. it's hard to tell by a quick glance who is better since one sometimes scores more points while the other always seems to get more (and sometimes way more) rebounds and steals but perhaps less blocks than the other but it is definitely good to see some stats.

peace out everyone.

ps - my vote goes to tyrus thomas.

save the knicks
08-30-2010, 07:26 PM
ps - my vote goes to tyrus thomas.

:facepalm:

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 07:27 PM
Highlights? whaat?

That is a link to every game that Boozer and Amare have played against each other.

Amare has pretty much dominated Boozer his entire career! The numbers get even more skewed to Amare in the post season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=boozeca01&p2=stoudam01

I mean, I wouldn't call it domination, but Amare has outplayed Boozer by just a bit head to head

Avenged
08-30-2010, 07:28 PM
if you wanna talk stats, amare's stats are arguably better than dirks; dirk got the 2 spot. these lists are as inaccurate as rondo on the free throw line.

Amare's stats are not better than Dirks, man.

Swashcuff
08-30-2010, 07:29 PM
go to the career stats and look nubnub.

AGAIN I ask the question what the HELL stats are you watching?

save the knicks
08-30-2010, 07:31 PM
AGAIN I ask the question what the HELL stats are you watching?

http://www.basketball-reference.com
http://hoopdata.com/
synergy

Swashcuff
08-30-2010, 07:37 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com
http://hoopdata.com/
synergy

what purpose did that serve?

Dirk career's stats across the board is better than Amare. Literally a couple exceptions

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 07:39 PM
Dirk is way better than Amare. No need to argue this, Dirk is off the board. Move on

Swashcuff
08-30-2010, 07:40 PM
Dirk is way better than Amare. No need to argue this, Dirk is off the board. Move on

moving on.

save the knicks
08-30-2010, 07:40 PM
what purpose did that serve?

Dirk career's stats across the board is better than Amare. Literally a couple exceptions

OOOHHH i see what ya did there

I thought you didn't know were to find NBA statistics on the net

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 07:41 PM
you are good at counting. i had three different people to reply to. thanks for finally giving me some sort of an answer: amare crushed every PF he played against in the west. i was unaware that this was the case. it would be nice to see some documentation on that but i personally don't have time to go back and look up the various matches between amare and other PFs and how they went so i guess i'll just have to take your word for it for now. i must say i am highly skeptical though.

I have posted all his head to heads before.

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 07:47 PM
what purpose did that serve?

Dirk career's stats across the board is better than Amare. Literally a couple exceptions

amare has him beat substatially in FG%. dirk has more rebounds. hawkeye if your reading this please weigh in we could use your expertise

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 07:58 PM
amare has him beat substatially in FG%. dirk has more rebounds. hawkeye if your reading this please weigh in we could use your expertise

what is the debate? Dirk vs Amare? In what context?

Swashcuff
08-30-2010, 08:03 PM
I told myself I wasnt going to waste my time with this guy but hey I aint doing much but this right now

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=nowitdi01&p2=stoudam01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=stoudam01&y1=2010&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2010

Now tell me what stats were you exactly looking at?

FG%, eFG&, TS% because those are the only things Amare have a real edge in and that is because of obvious reasons. Do you want me to post more links or more stats?

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 08:04 PM
what is the debate? Dirk vs Amare? In what context?

stat wise. pros and cons. when i briefly looked at them side by side it looked as though amar'e has an argument.

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 08:05 PM
I told myself I wasnt going to waste my time with this guy but hey I aint doing much but this right now

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=nowitdi01&p2=stoudam01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=stoudam01&y1=2010&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2010

Now tell me what stats were you exactly looking at?

FG%, eFG&, TS% because those are the only things Amare have a real edge in and that is because of obvious reasons. Do you want me to post more links or more stats?

no thats fine.

Swashcuff
08-30-2010, 08:07 PM
stat wise. pros and cons. when i briefly looked at them side by side it looked as though amar'e has an argument.

hear what to do next time... don't look at em briefly..... actually looking, understand and analyze what you are looking at. Then come make a post like that. But hey as time goes along you'd learn.

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 08:09 PM
hear what to do next time... don't look at em briefly..... actually looking, understand and analyze what you are looking at. Then come make a post like that. But hey as time goes along you'd learn.

listen man, looking at the stats there is no clear answer. it is absolutely up for debate. obviously dirk can do some things amare can't; but that goes both ways.

LA_Raiders
08-30-2010, 08:09 PM
Amare... Besides he has to carry NY, while Bosh will free load...

Swashcuff
08-30-2010, 08:11 PM
no thats fine.

that the argument?

There is no argument whatsoever there.

2009-2010 NBA dunk stats

Amare Stoudamire

#2 with 187 dunks

Dirk Nowitzki

#130 with 24 dunks

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/dunk-o-meter/yearly?tag=pageRow;pageContainer&start_row=1

get the idea. Its really not worth explaining but i really hope you understand.

Swashcuff
08-30-2010, 08:13 PM
listen man, looking at the stats there is no clear answer. it is absolutely up for debate. obviously dirk can do some things amare can't; but that goes both ways.

Stick to baseball bro. I'm sorry. Have fun while you fall on deaf ears because it makes no sense debating facts with you. Facts are facts you can't change that. You are just rooting for your teams playing without even understand or knowing the facts.

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 08:14 PM
that the argument?

There is no argument whatsoever there.

2009-2010 NBA dunk stats

Amare Stoudamire

#2 with 187 dunks

Dirk Nowitzki

#130 with 24 dunks

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/dunk-o-meter/yearly?tag=pageRow;pageContainer&start_row=1

get the idea. Its really not worth explaining but i really hope you understand.

results are still results. and in a way that just helps amare's argument.

DoJoTheSlasher
08-30-2010, 08:15 PM
listen man, looking at the stats there is no clear answer. it is absolutely up for debate. obviously dirk can do some things amare can't; but that goes both ways.

Dirk is to Amare as Kobe is to Ellis.

Kobe and Dirk are two elite players at their positions all tie and both Hall of Famers.

Ellis and Amare are "show" players.

This is honestly a terrible argument...........

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 08:16 PM
swashcuff already posted their head to heads, and career numbers. Dirk wins those outright. He scores more, rebounds more, is a better passer, and his usage and shots late in the clock will not allow him to compare to Amare, FG% wise, even advanced. Dirk also take a lot more outside contested shots, yet gets to the line at a higher clip.
Dirk is a far superior passer, and his accuracy from 15-20 seperate him, as well as his ability to get to the line with elite proficiency, which makes his eFG% very comfortable to live with.
Looking at synergy, they are both ELITE scorers, with high efficiency. They are so close, the only thing that gives them difference is, Dirk is a far better spot up shooter, and is actually better in the post, due to foul draw. Amare is better on the pick and roll, which is indicative of his PG. Dirk is also way better off screens. In all reality, Dirk is a better creator than Amare. He can get his own shot, and do something with it, at a higher rate.
Defensively, Amare is actually better, considering he is good at closing, fighting thru picks, which can be proven by his ranking at #18 in the NBA on pick and roll defense, PPP wise, and his ranking of #18 on off screen. Dirk is better on isolations, and is a better defensive rebounder, which takes away possessions, which can't be measured.

All in all, Dirk is a better player. Period. The advanced numbers will show a closeness in certain areas, and Amare simply is a nightmare on the move in a pick and roll system. But we will see if Mike D can get the same production out of Felton/Douglas that they did Nash, which is too much to ask. Meaning, Dirk will continue to play at a high clip, while Amare is going to need a system adjustment, but just moved to #1 option all night, every night.

Dirk>Amare guys.

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 08:16 PM
Stick to baseball bro. I'm sorry. Have fun while you fall on deaf ears because it makes no sense debating facts with you. Facts are facts you can't change that. You are just rooting for your teams playing without even understand or knowing the facts.

i've been watching basketball for my whole life, i've been an avid fan of amare for years now and pheonix has been my "other" team to cheer for while the knicks have been in obscurity. don't try and take the high road with me. you've yet to show me any facts that prove dirks superiority.

Kashmir13579
08-30-2010, 08:20 PM
swashcuff already posted their head to heads, and career numbers. Dirk wins those outright. He scores more, rebounds more, is a better passer, and his usage and shots late in the clock will not allow him to compare to Amare, FG% wise, even advanced. Dirk also take a lot more outside contested shots, yet gets to the line at a higher clip.
Dirk is a far superior passer, and his accuracy from 15-20 seperate him, as well as his ability to get to the line with elite proficiency, which makes his eFG% very comfortable to live with.
Looking at synergy, they are both ELITE scorers, with high efficiency. They are so close, the only thing that gives them difference is, Dirk is a far better spot up shooter, and is actually better in the post, due to foul draw. Amare is better on the pick and roll, which is indicative of his PG. Dirk is also way better off screens. In all reality, Dirk is a better creator than Amare. He can get his own shot, and do something with it, at a higher rate.
Defensively, Amare is actually better, considering he is good at closing, fighting thru picks, which can be proven by his ranking at #18 in the NBA on pick and roll defense, PPP wise, and his ranking of #18 on off screen. Dirk is better on isolations, and is a better defensive rebounder, which takes away possessions, which can't be measured.

All in all, Dirk is a better player. Period. The advanced numbers will show a closeness in certain areas, and Amare simply is a nightmare on the move in a pick and roll system. But we will see if Mike D can get the same production out of Felton/Douglas that they did Nash, which is too much to ask. Meaning, Dirk will continue to play at a high clip, while Amare is going to need a system adjustment, but just moved to #1 option all night, every night.

Dirk>Amare guys.

there are very few times i can argue with hawkeye and this is not going to be one of them. :D

Swashcuff
08-30-2010, 08:22 PM
there are very few times i can argue with hawkeye and this is not going to be one of them. :D

hahahahaha he said everything i was saying OMG some posters say the funniest things :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 08:22 PM
Amare turns into butter when he is defending the post, but he actually is a great closer and pick and roll defender. If he could get his damn defensive rebound rate up to the elite PF level, he moves into the conversation for top PF

dob_telescope
08-30-2010, 08:23 PM
I know it is way to early but .... at some point what about LaMarcus Aldridge. The guy carried the blazers through all of the injuries this year. If some how Gregg Oden can stay healthy he could put up monster numbers. I would at least put him over Josh Smith.

LA
PPG 19 RPG 6 AST 2

Josh Smith
PPG 14 RPG 9 AST 2

Antawn Jamison
PPG 15 RPG 7 AST 1

Rashard Lewis
PPG 13 RPG 5 AST 1

DoJoTheSlasher
08-30-2010, 08:24 PM
i've been watching basketball for my whole life, i've been an avid fan of amare for years now and pheonix has been my "other" team to cheer for while the knicks have been in obscurity. don't try and take the high road with me. you've yet to show me any facts that prove dirks superiority.



Dirk: 1 MVP, 9 all stars, 10 all nba team selections, intl play career, 1 Finals appearance, 103 playoff games; 25.6 ppg 10.9 rpg career.

He is a clear cut 1st ballod HOF while Amare will not be close to a HOF.



Can you please stop riding Amare's nuts? Just because NY got an exciting player in FA doesn't mean he is the greatest player of all time. Why aren't you giving Eddy Curry any love for best C in the NBA?

Avenged
08-30-2010, 08:25 PM
swashcuff already posted their head to heads, and career numbers. Dirk wins those outright. He scores more, rebounds more, is a better passer, and his usage and shots late in the clock will not allow him to compare to Amare, FG% wise, even advanced. Dirk also take a lot more outside contested shots, yet gets to the line at a higher clip.
Dirk is a far superior passer, and his accuracy from 15-20 seperate him, as well as his ability to get to the line with elite proficiency, which makes his eFG% very comfortable to live with.
Looking at synergy, they are both ELITE scorers, with high efficiency. They are so close, the only thing that gives them difference is, Dirk is a far better spot up shooter, and is actually better in the post, due to foul draw. Amare is better on the pick and roll, which is indicative of his PG. Dirk is also way better off screens. In all reality, Dirk is a better creator than Amare. He can get his own shot, and do something with it, at a higher rate.
Defensively, Amare is actually better, considering he is good at closing, fighting thru picks, which can be proven by his ranking at #18 in the NBA on pick and roll defense, PPP wise, and his ranking of #18 on off screen. Dirk is better on isolations, and is a better defensive rebounder, which takes away possessions, which can't be measured.

All in all, Dirk is a better player. Period. The advanced numbers will show a closeness in certain areas, and Amare simply is a nightmare on the move in a pick and roll system. But we will see if Mike D can get the same production out of Felton/Douglas that they did Nash, which is too much to ask. Meaning, Dirk will continue to play at a high clip, while Amare is going to need a system adjustment, but just moved to #1 option all night, every night.

Dirk>Amare guys.

I can't believe it's even being discussed in all honesty.

Dirk's stats are better and although the advance stats are close (like you said) Dirk still beats him out. Dirk is better offensively overall, and just by looking at the advance stats, he's a far better passer than Amare.

Avenged
08-30-2010, 08:28 PM
Dirk: 1 MVP, 9 all stars, 10 all nba team selections, intl play career, 1 Finals appearance, 103 playoff games; 25.6 ppg 10.9 rpg career.

He is a clear cut 1st ballod HOF while Amare will not be close to a HOF.



Can you please stop riding Amare's nuts? Just because NY got an exciting player in FA doesn't mean he is the greatest player of all time. Why aren't you giving Eddy Curry any love for best C in the NBA?

Careers aren't being compared here.

The 09-10 season is what's being compared and how they fair today.

Either way though, Dirk is clearly the better player compared to Amare.

And like Swashcuff mentioned, he was practically saying the same thing Hawkeye was.

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 08:29 PM
Dirk: 1 MVP, 9 all stars, 10 all nba team selections, intl play career, 1 Finals appearance, 103 playoff games; 25.6 ppg 10.9 rpg career.

He is a clear cut 1st ballod HOF while Amare will not be close to a HOF.



Can you please stop riding Amare's nuts? Just because NY got an exciting player in FA doesn't mean he is the greatest player of all time. Why aren't you giving Eddy Curry any love for best C in the NBA?

these threads and votes shouldnt be career achievement awards though. Make sure and talk about right now, that is all that is important.

DoJoTheSlasher
08-30-2010, 08:30 PM
Careers aren't being compared here.

The 09-10 season is what's being compared and how they fair today.

Either way though, Dirk is clearly the better player compared to Amare.

And like Swashcuff mentioned, he was practically saying the same thing Hawkeye was.

I know but I am just emphasizing how this argument is ridiculous.

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 08:31 PM
I know but I am just emphasizing how this argument is ridiculous.

KG takes a crap on Dirk career wise. Is he better right now? That is the point

DeZonia
08-30-2010, 08:38 PM
How can you guys give a reason to not picking Amare because he wouldn't do good without nash... that is a ****ing horrible reason, maybe we should take into account bosh has been the best player and main scoring option on his team and his numbers aren't crazy good and he hasn't got them to the playoffs yet, even when the east wasn't that good. Having 4 or 5 good teams and the rest sucked.

Jays Claw
08-30-2010, 08:40 PM
Bosh is basically running away with this.

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 08:44 PM
How can you guys give a reason to not picking Amare because he wouldn't do good without nash... that is a ****ing horrible reason, maybe we should take into account bosh has been the best player and main scoring option on his team and his numbers aren't crazy good and he hasn't got them to the playoffs yet, even when the east wasn't that good. Having 4 or 5 good teams and the rest sucked.

I don't think anyone thinks Amare's numbers come purely from playing with Nash, but many of us who really understand the effects of having high efficiency distributors on their team, really need to see how Amare does with an average PG.
Bosh was surrounded by crap. Overpaid crap, even worse.

If you understand how to read advanced stats, there are a few things not taken into effect. Amare did not get the double teams Dirk or Bosh looked at, and was in an open system. He did a GREAT job of taking advantage of a great PG, so history tells us he will still be as efficient, to some degree, going forward. But we all need a good sample size of him without Nash.

That being said, Dirk's best seasons came after Nash's departure. But that is because he had talent around him, and simply has more basketball skill, offensively. It really doesn't matter who Dirk has around him, he will produce. Will Amare??

DoJoTheSlasher
08-30-2010, 08:45 PM
KG takes a crap on Dirk career wise. Is he better right now? That is the point

LOL I'm sorry takes a crap???

Dirk did WAAAAAYYYY more than KG did as the #1 star. KG and Gasol had to team with up stars to win in the playoffs.

I'm not gonna get into this in this thread but that statement is ridiculous.

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 08:47 PM
LOL I'm sorry takes a crap???

Dirk did WAAAAAYYYY more than KG did as the #1 star. KG and Gasol had to team with up stars to win in the playoffs.

I'm not gonna get into this in this thread but that statement is ridiculous.

how is my statement ridiculous? Individually, and statistically, Dirk will never touch KG in his prime. Ever.
You are looking at roster support in your argument, which is a 1st grade argument.
You don't want to continue this bro. KG not only took a crap on Dirk offensively, efficiency wise and production wise, but when you factor in defense, it becomes borderline laughable.

Swashcuff
08-30-2010, 08:49 PM
LOL I'm sorry takes a crap???

Dirk did WAAAAAYYYY more than KG did as the #1 star. KG and Gasol had to team with up stars to win in the playoffs.

I'm not gonna get into this in this thread but that statement is ridiculous.

Are you trying to beat back the other poster now for most ignorant statement of the thread? C'mon please there's being a homer and there be utterly and completely ignorant and right now you are just being a lethal combination of both.

jtrinaldi
08-30-2010, 08:49 PM
no Luc Richard Mbah a Moute?

DoJoTheSlasher
08-30-2010, 08:55 PM
Are you trying to beat back the other poster now for most ignorant statement of the thread? C'mon please there's being a homer and there be utterly and completely ignorant and right now you are just being a lethal combination of both.

There is nothing ignorant about saying KG is not that much better than Dirk in their primes. And please, poster above, KG better than Dirk offensively?

Hawkeye15
08-30-2010, 08:56 PM
There is nothing ignorant about saying KG is not that much better than Dirk in their primes. And please, poster above, KG better than Dirk offensively?

yes. He is better. Please explain your opinion, with evidence, so I don't need to waste my time with a daniel steele novel retort

thekmp211
08-30-2010, 09:03 PM
There is nothing ignorant about saying KG is not that much better than Dirk in their primes. And please, poster above, KG better than Dirk offensively?

all i will say is that there is a lot of statistical evidence that points to kevin garnett being the best individual player of this decade/generation. best, period. so, keep that in mind when referencing nebulous measures of quality like team success.

DeZonia
08-30-2010, 09:04 PM
I just don't see what Bosh has accomplished to be ranked #4 before KG and Amare. Has good stats but not amazing being the Number 1 option on his team. He didn't have a horrible team. He had Turkoglu who didn't do amazing, but he is still a solid player. He had bargnani who is underrated with 17ppg 7rpg 1.4blocks, with 47% shooting, and he is 7'0.

Bosh didn't have a bad team, just bosh wasn't as good as you guys make him out to be. Put Garnett on that team and I bet you they make the playoffs.

Do you not agree?

Chacarron
08-30-2010, 09:07 PM
The Boz Bosh.

DeZonia
08-30-2010, 09:08 PM
I also think Boozer is better then Bosh. He does everything that Bosh does but better.

Jewelz0376
08-30-2010, 09:40 PM
I just don't see what Bosh has accomplished to be ranked #4 before KG and Amare. Has good stats but not amazing being the Number 1 option on his team. He didn't have a horrible team. He had Turkoglu who didn't do amazing, but he is still a solid player. He had bargnani who is underrated with 17ppg 7rpg 1.4blocks, with 47% shooting, and he is 7'0.

Bosh didn't have a bad team, just bosh wasn't as good as you guys make him out to be. Put Garnett on that team and I bet you they make the playoffs.

Do you not agree?

Uhh no... That team was trash... Calderon, Bargani, Turkoglu, etc... they don't play any defense....Kg would maybe make them better defensively, but he can't carry the load o night after night anymore.... I'll admit Bosh had a lot to be desired on D while he was in Tor....but with that aside he couldn't really do much more..He was giving them 24 & 11...what more do you want?? Not every1 can put up LBJ numbers...

DeZonia
08-30-2010, 09:42 PM
I'm not saying they are bad numbers. But when he is supposedly the only rebounder and only shooter you would think his number would be better. You say they had bad defense, well bosh didn't have any better. He actually had less block then Bargnani.

Jays Claw
08-30-2010, 09:49 PM
You say they had bad defense, well Bosh didn't have any better. He actually had less blocks than Bargnani.

Blocks aren't everything when looking at defense. The Raptors (Bosh included) were garbage at defense last year.

DeZonia
08-30-2010, 09:57 PM
I agree, So i don't understand how a Garbage defender can be called the #4 PF in the league?

Jays Claw
08-30-2010, 10:01 PM
I agree, so I don't understand how a garbage defender can be called the #4 PF in the league?

There needs to be balance in a player. Despite being horrible at defense, Bosh kind of makes up for it with his extremely efficient offense. Also, if we're looking at defense, his rebounding percentages are off the charts!

Jonathan2323
08-30-2010, 10:02 PM
I agree, So i don't understand how a Garbage defender can be called the #4 PF in the league?

Says the guy who voted for Amare. :rolleyes:

Gators123
08-30-2010, 10:04 PM
lol

Jays Claw
08-30-2010, 10:06 PM
Says the guy who voted for Amare. :rolleyes:

Face it, both Stoudemire and Bosh are awful at defense.

Jewelz0376
08-30-2010, 10:06 PM
I'm not saying they are bad numbers. But when he is supposedly the only rebounder and only shooter you would think his number would be better. You say they had bad defense, well bosh didn't have any better. He actually had less block then Bargnani.

I said in my post Bosh didnt play any D...but at least he rebounds...Maybe its cause he was the only one who tried to rebound....but its not like the Suns had a bunch of dominant rebounders on that team taking boards away from Amare...whats his excuse for not getting more rebounds??

Jewelz0376
08-30-2010, 10:07 PM
Face it, both Stoudemire and Bosh are awful at defense.

this

They both play no D...and they both are about equal on offense imo...

The big difference between the two is Bosh rebounds...Stat doesn't

goose15
08-30-2010, 10:08 PM
Amare Stoudemire

Jonathan2323
08-30-2010, 10:09 PM
this

They both play no D...and they both are about equal on offense imo...

The big difference between the two is Bosh rebounds...Stat doesn't

So whats the difference B/w Gasol and Bosh. Gasol doesn't play D either.

Jonathan2323
08-30-2010, 10:12 PM
Gasol is a decent defender, give Bosh time with the HEAT you will see a dramatic difference in his D. The HEAT preach defense 1st.

beasted86
08-30-2010, 10:15 PM
So whats the difference B/w Gasol and Bosh. Gasol doesn't play D either.

Flame war commencing......... now.







Though seriously, Gasol is both underrated & overrated. Overrated by Laker fans, underrated by other NBA fans. He's a better defender than Dirk, Bosh, Amare or Boozer... but he's not a great defender like LA fans will try and convince you he is. His rebounding is also overrated.

Avenged
08-30-2010, 10:18 PM
Get over it guys. Gasol is better than Bosh, and Bosh is better than Amare.

With Bosh joining a team that's bound to have success, expect Bosh to go up the rankings considering success does get taken into account slightly.

DeZonia
08-30-2010, 10:19 PM
I'm a Huge Gasol fan. but i won't tell you he is the greatest defender. I think he is good and can has clutch defensive stops. To me Gasol's biggest strength is his Offensive. I believe he is the best Offensive Big man in the league.

Not to mention he is an AMAZING rebounder and the best bigman passer in the game

Jays Claw
08-30-2010, 10:19 PM
So what's the difference B/w Gasol and Bosh? Gasol doesn't play D either.

What are you talking about? :confused:

Gasol completely annihilates Bosh when it comes to defense. (DRtg - Gasol: 102 vs. Bosh: 111) & (DWS - Gasol: 4.2 vs. Bosh: 1.7).

DeZonia
08-30-2010, 10:20 PM
We will see if bosh is really as elite as you Heat fans believe he is. Althought you have probably never seen him play one game lol.

But we will see. The post is their weakness, lets see how bosh steps up, or if he even will.

Avenged
08-30-2010, 10:21 PM
I'm a Huge Gasol fan. but i won't tell you he is a great defender. I think he is ok and can have clutch defensive stops. To me Gasol's biggest strength is his Offensive. I believe he is the best Offensive Big man in the league.

And you are absolutely correct.

His defense isn't great, but it's an area he has improved on.

DeZonia
08-30-2010, 10:32 PM
And you are absolutely correct.

His defense isn't great, but it's an area he has improved on.

yes improved on, and will continue to improve on. I think adding Artest is helping Gasol with intensity on the defensive end. Adding Barnes and Ratliff will hopefully help Gasol.

I think this year Gasol is going to look better then before. With his defense becoming one of his strengths. If you look at Gasol when he first Joined the Lakers and you look at him now, there is a HUGE difference and it seems to be improving every year.

Bosh will be destroyed by Gasol's offensive Game, defensive game and BB IQ. I'm excited to see it happen!

koetravis
08-30-2010, 10:48 PM
luis scola has to be in top ten

jackdawson
08-30-2010, 10:57 PM
Chris Bosh.

Hustlenomics
08-30-2010, 10:58 PM
I'm a Huge Gasol fan. but i won't tell you he is the greatest defender. I think he is good and can has clutch defensive stops. To me Gasol's biggest strength is his Offensive. I believe he is the best Offensive Big man in the league.

Not to mention he is an AMAZING rebounder and the best bigman passer in the game

lol

Avenged
08-30-2010, 11:00 PM
lol

Why is that funny? he's right.

Gasol is the most skilled big man in the league overall offensively and is also a very good rebounder (another aspect of his game he has improved on)

JordansBulls
08-30-2010, 11:02 PM
Uhh no... That team was trash... Calderon, Bargani, Turkoglu, etc... they don't play any defense....Kg would maybe make them better defensively, but he can't carry the load o night after night anymore.... I'll admit Bosh had a lot to be desired on D while he was in Tor....but with that aside he couldn't really do much more..He was giving them 24 & 11...what more do you want?? Not every1 can put up LBJ numbers...

People were saying how Calderon was the best PG in the East.

And if you remember from last year, the Raptors were supposed to make the ECF.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401224

Hustlenomics
08-30-2010, 11:17 PM
People were saying how Calderon was the best PG in the East.

And if you remember from last year, the Raptors were supposed to make the ECF.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401224

damn no wonder bosh is winning this poll lol

Rego247
08-30-2010, 11:19 PM
People were saying how Calderon was the best PG in the East.

And if you remember from last year, the Raptors were supposed to make the ECF.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401224

and if you remember from this year, the bulls were suppose to land lebron.

DeZonia
08-30-2010, 11:59 PM
LOL see all these Heat fans, try and make a case why Bosh should be so good. He was expected to do well because he had a good team. You Heat fans can say other wise, but as we can see people believed they could do it. Sense they didn't make the playoffs it isn't Bosh's fault its his teams fault! LOL you make me laugh heat fans..

DeZonia
08-31-2010, 12:00 AM
the bulls weren't supposed to land Lebron the Knicks were. Where were you all last season when they wouldn't stop talking about Lebron and the Knicks, it was very annoying.

Kyben36
08-31-2010, 12:08 AM
IMO, Chris Bosh, Amare, Boozer and then Garnet

Garnet isnt what he used to be.

Rego247
08-31-2010, 12:13 AM
the bulls weren't supposed to land Lebron the Knicks were. Where were you all last season when they wouldn't stop talking about Lebron and the Knicks, it was very annoying.

it wasnt the knicks throughout, bulls were definitely in the mix, they were the front runners before miami was.

Jays Claw
08-31-2010, 12:13 AM
IMO, Chris Bosh, Amare, Boozer and then Garnet

Garnet isnt what he used to be.

4. Bosh
5. Stoudemire
6. Smith
7. Boozer
8. Garnett

Hustlenomics
08-31-2010, 12:31 AM
4. Bosh
5. Stoudemire
6. Smith
7. Boozer
8. Garnett

woah.

beasted86
08-31-2010, 01:24 AM
What are you talking about? :confused:

Gasol completely annihilates Bosh when it comes to defense. (DRtg - Gasol: 102 vs. Bosh: 111) & (DWS - Gasol: 4.2 vs. Bosh: 1.7).

I always laugh at the foolish posters who use DRtg and dWS to back up their claims of who is a better defender. When will you guys realize that stat is useless and is a product of a good defensive team, not individual players...

Michael Beasley was the 20th & 21st ranked player in the ENTIRE league in DRtg and dWS. I guess that means he's the 20th best defender in the NBA, right? :facepalm:

Stop using that bullcrap argument and start watching basketball. I voted for Gasol as #1 PF in the NBA, and agree he is better than Bosh... but Gasol is an overrated defender, period.

DeZonia
08-31-2010, 01:27 AM
The sad part is that Bosh is known to be a crappy defender and he won't do anything more, but Heat fans want to believe he wasn't that bad. It was just his team making Bosh a BAD defender!!!! :o

ChiSox219
08-31-2010, 01:28 AM
I always laugh at the foolish posters who use DRtg and dWS to back up their claims of who is a better defender. When will you guys realize that stat is useless and is a product of a good defensive team, not individual players...

Michael Beasley was the 20th & 21st ranked player in the ENTIRE league in DRtg and dWS. I guess that means he's the 20th best defender in the NBA, right? :facepalm:


I've noticed this as well.

AntiG
08-31-2010, 01:39 AM
lol @ the sheer irony of Gasoft being labeled as a POWER forward :facepalm:

DeZonia
08-31-2010, 01:41 AM
lol @ the sheer irony of Gasoft being labeled as a POWER forward :facepalm:

Lol really ^^^ maybe 3 years ago but he has improved a lot and has become more physical...

AntiG
08-31-2010, 01:50 AM
Lol really ^^^ maybe 3 years ago but he has improved a lot and has become more physical...

ya he's gone from being about as tough as a 7 yr old girl to as tough as a teenage girl... still a giant {|}. maybe someday he'll reach full womanhood lol

soundjunkies2
08-31-2010, 02:08 AM
ya he's gone from being about as tough as a 7 yr old girl to as tough as a teenage girl... still a giant {|}. maybe someday he'll reach full womanhood lol

Hopefully a few more titles can do it.

Rndy
08-31-2010, 02:27 AM
I always laugh at the foolish posters who use DRtg and dWS to back up their claims of who is a better defender. When will you guys realize that stat is useless and is a product of a good defensive team, not individual players...

Michael Beasley was the 20th & 21st ranked player in the ENTIRE league in DRtg and dWS. I guess that means he's the 20th best defender in the NBA, right? :facepalm:

Stop using that bullcrap argument and start watching basketball. I voted for Gasol as #1 PF in the NBA, and agree he is better than Bosh... but Gasol is an overrated defender, period.

Great point. Defensive stats are very flawed in every sport. Baseball is no different then Basketball in this aspect. Although Drtg is the best available stat. It's the UZR/150 of basketball imo.

The offensive stats seem better. TS%, eFG%, ect....

I feel we can all agree Boozer, Bosh, and Amare aren't very impressive defenders. Unless someone is Super Homer. However some of them offer good things defensively. If Bosh can have another TRB% of around 17 I feel like that he becomes one of the better rebounders. Boozer we already know is one of the best rebounding PF. Amare respectable rebounder with imo the best Blocks out of the three. Really I feel each team is happy with who they got.

Avenged
08-31-2010, 02:32 AM
Great point. Defensive stats are very flawed in every sport. Baseball is no different then Basketball in this aspect. Although Drtg is the best available stat. It's the UZR/150 of basketball imo.

The offensive stats seem better. TS%, eFG%, ect....

I feel we can all agree Boozer, Bosh, and Amare aren't very impressive defenders. Unless someone is Super Homer.

:laugh2: There's a lot of those for 3 of those players for each fan base, unfortunately.

Jewelz0376
08-31-2010, 02:39 AM
The sad part is that Bosh is known to be a crappy defender and he won't do anything more, but Heat fans want to believe he wasn't that bad. It was just his team making Bosh a BAD defender!!!! :o

Its hard to be a good defender when your on a bad team....Look at the celtics...pierce and ray allen were never known as good defenders until Bos became at contender....

Being a good defender is about 3 things
1) Basketball IQ
2) Athletic ability (quickness, foot speed, etc)
3) Effort

Effort is probably the most important part of being a good defender and its hard to give 100% effort on D when your on a bad team...Bosh def has the athletic ability to be a good defender and he'll def put forth more effort in Mia...Will he be a good defender in Mia...who knows but he will def be a better defender..

Purch
08-31-2010, 08:43 AM
Lol @ people voting Boozer.

pebloemer
08-31-2010, 09:16 AM
The sad part is that Bosh is known to be a crappy defender and he won't do anything more, but Heat fans want to believe he wasn't that bad. It was just his team making Bosh a BAD defender!!!! :o

Well I'm a Raptor's fan recently scorned by his departure and I have no difficulties believing he will be a good defender with the Heat. I would imagine frustrations of your C missing rotations, not being able to rebound, and you PG getting blown by consistently would hurt any players effectiveness on D. How was Bosh's defense for Team USA at the last world Championship?

It isn't just Heat fans that believe he can turn that part of his game around.

Raidaz4Life
08-31-2010, 09:19 AM
Well I'm a Raptor's fan recently scorned by his departure and I have no difficulties believing he will be a good defender with the Heat. I would imagine frustrations of your C missing rotations, not being able to rebound, and you PG getting blown by consistently would hurt any players effectiveness on D. How was Bosh's defense for Team USA at the last world Championship?

It isn't just Heat fans that believe he can turn that part of his game around.

He's too small and too soft to ever be a legit defender.

pebloemer
08-31-2010, 09:54 AM
He's too small and too soft to ever be a legit defender.

He is too small to guard Center's maybe, but the added weight he put on last off-season is enough to guard most PF's in this league. It would help him to put on a bit more weight, but his BB IQ, length and athleticism will easily make him a legit defender. An elite defender, of course not, but a legit defender? I don't see how that is so hard to believe.

Hawkeye15
08-31-2010, 01:54 PM
#5 is up. THanks for voting