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View Full Version : Cheating or Not?: Stephen Drew relaying pitches to Adam Laroche



CAIN=FUTURE
08-28-2010, 01:55 PM
In last night 6-0 win over the Giants, and Tim Lincecum (:(), Diamondbacks shortstop Stephen Drew picked up Lincecum tipping pitches in the first inning, and was relaying them to cleanup hitter Adam Laroche which directly lead to a 3-run home run for Laroche. I noticed Lincecum was tipping his pitch when it happend. In his windup, when the ball was behind his back he had the palm of his hand faced towards second base with the grip in full view of anyone on second base. I was able to predict the changeup. You know the one the looks like a tight quick curveball. Stephen Drew was also caught on the CSN brodcast in the dugout mimicking Lincecums windup. Clearly showing his teammates what he picked up on. That's not all, he was also caught on second base relaying a sign. He looks to the left, then a tip of the hat. While Lincecum was in the delivery he shakes his head yes, as in here it comes.

It is possible Lincecum tipped his pitch at two different parts of his dilievery. First, before he starts the windup when he is holding the ball behind his back. Then again in his windup when he drops his arm behind his back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTi6fQ22sH0&feature=related
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q315/wetsideballer47/tim1.jpg
My theroy is that Stephen Drew picked up the pitch when Lincecum held the ball behind his back before the delivery, then relayed the sign to Laroche. Then, in his windup he picked up the pitch again and shook his head yes, as in here it comes, then Laroche smacked it for a 3-run shot.

I can not find anything about relaying pitches in the MLB rules. I feel action needs to be taken. The Giants should call this game into protest, as this can have huge implications on a tight wildcard race. I was able to find an article (http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2010/04/24/unwritten-rules-get-written-in-entertaining-book/), calling it one of the unwritten rules in baseball. So maybe the only thing that can be done is a fastball to the back of Stephen Drew.
Thoughts?

SouthSideSox
08-28-2010, 02:02 PM
It's baseball. Lincecum made a mistake by tipping his pitches and he paid for it.
Good job Drew for taking advantage of the situation and playing smart baseball.

t327
08-28-2010, 02:02 PM
If Lincecum isn't hiding his pitches, it's not Drew's fault. Lincecum is giving the other team an advantage. I wouldn't be surprised if other team's have been noticing the same thing, which is why Lincecum is struggling this year. I don't think it's cheating...more like exploiting.

Dmac
08-28-2010, 02:10 PM
Why would they protest? Give me a break. This has been going on for years, and there is nothing wrong with it. And I promise you, the Giants have done this. Every team does at one time or another.

It's Lincecum's fault for not hiding his pitches better. Batters figure out pitchers are tipping their pitches all the time, it is part of baseball.

whitesoxfan83
08-28-2010, 02:13 PM
It's baseball. Lincecum made a mistake by tipping his pitches and he paid for it.
Good job Drew for taking advantage of the situation and playing smart baseball.

X100

If you tip your pitchers you deserve to get your *** kicked.

This is some heads up baseball on Drew's part, in fact Lincecum may have been doing something similar to this all season. That could explain his sub-Lincecum season...

whitesoxfan83
08-28-2010, 02:16 PM
Anyone else see the delicious irony in this?


In February 2001, Joshua Harris Prager of the Wall Street Journal reported that the Giants had positioned coach Herman Franks with a telescope in the Giants' clubhouse during the latter half of the season, including the game itself, and had stolen the pitching signs of the Dodger catcher, Rube Walker, subbing for the injured Roy Campanella in the playoff game.[11] Prager concluded that the spy had signalled pitches to the Giants' batters, including Thomson, thus enabling Thomson to know in advance what pitch Branca was going to throw him. According to Prager's research, Franks was hidden in Giant manager Leo Durocher's office, which was positioned in the Polo Grounds center field and offered a line-of-sight view of the catcher. A buzzer system was installed so that Franks could signal a player in the Giants' bullpen, located on the field of play in deep left field. The player would then signal the batter as to what pitch was coming.

However, acknowledging that sign-stealing was not made a violation of rules by Major League Baseball, and that it had been a part of baseball since the inception of signs as a means of communication between pitcher and catcher, Prager in an interview with CNN on February 3, 2001, left it to readers to determine if the sign-stealing, which Thomson denied, diminished the stature of the event. While the Prager article said that MLB had formally outlawed sign-stealing in the 1960s, his followup book in 2006, The Echoing Green, notes that the major leagues to this writing have not outlawed the practice.

The burden of uncovering sign-stealers is consigned to the opposing team, typically the visiting team. The fact that the visiting teams won the first two games of the playoff series raises the question of how effective the alleged sign-stealing really was. Nonetheless, Prager points out in The Echoing Green that Thomson hit over .100 points higher after the sign stealing scheme began in July 1951 and "no doubt" received advanced notice of the two fastballs Branca threw at him that day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_Heard_%27Round_the_World_%28baseball%29#cite_ note-10

Jays Claw
08-28-2010, 02:20 PM
Cry me a river!

You shouldn't blame anyone but Lincecum. He's at fault for tipping his pitches and I applaud Drew for taking full advantage of it.

Brew Crew
08-28-2010, 02:23 PM
CHEATING! CHEATING!

First Mark McGuire...

Then Barry Bonds...

Now....

It's Stephen Drew!:speechless::speechless:

MooseWithFleas
08-28-2010, 02:26 PM
It's not cheating...

marlinsfan24
08-28-2010, 02:26 PM
He's tipping his pitches, that's his own fault.

thephoenixson28
08-28-2010, 02:28 PM
Pretty smart if you ask me.

d79cheese
08-28-2010, 02:39 PM
its def. not cheating if its a player out on the bases relaying signs...it is lincecum and posey's job not to tip pitches, location, etc...

stupidmop
08-28-2010, 02:42 PM
It's not cheating. Gotta hide your signs, gotta not tip your pitches.

MooseWithFleas
08-28-2010, 02:52 PM
Back in the 50's and 60's (not that I was alive back then to testify), but people always say that if you steal signs, the punishment is getting beaned the next time up. Those days are over though and you just need to hide your damn signs, its not that difficult.

saucy1
08-28-2010, 03:05 PM
typical san francisco guy arent you used to getting pounded by now:facepalm:

Corey
08-28-2010, 03:07 PM
If the pitcher and catcher don't hide their signals better, or if Lincecum is tipping pitches, it their own fault.

Good baseball by Drew.

utahjazzno12fan
08-28-2010, 03:07 PM
I am a coach. At the school where I coach, many of our players come into our system having not even had signs, so I have to make them complicated enough so that they cannot be easily stolen, but easy enough to read. On rainy days when we cannot practice outside, I spend time on teaching how to steal signs and relay them.

I have gotten good at stealing signs given by the opposing coaches while I am stationed in the 3rd base coaching box. I have also stolen them from the catcher when he relays signs to the pitcher if he holds his signs out from his body. I use audible signals to relay what pitch is coming if I pick up on it so that the other team does not know what I am doing. My baserunners steal signs and use signals to relay them to the batter.

Think of it in basketball or football terms. If the head coach is calling out plays, are you going to act like you don't hear them?

iam brett favre
08-28-2010, 03:09 PM
I just think Lincecum sucks this year.
(waits for stat nerds to come in with obscure stats to prove me wrong)

whitesoxfan83
08-28-2010, 03:28 PM
I am a coach. At the school where I coach, many of our players come into our system having not even had signs, so I have to make them complicated enough so that they cannot be easily stolen, but easy enough to read. On rainy days when we cannot practice outside, I spend time on teaching how to steal signs and relay them.

I have gotten good at stealing signs given by the opposing coaches while I am stationed in the 3rd base coaching box. I have also stolen them from the catcher when he relays signs to the pitcher if he holds his signs out from his body. I use audible signals to relay what pitch is coming if I pick up on it so that the other team does not know what I am doing. My baserunners steal signs and use signals to relay them to the batter.

Think of it in basketball or football terms. If the head coach is calling out plays, are you going to act like you don't hear them?

God I love baseball.

jd_azsportsfan
08-28-2010, 03:29 PM
Its not like there was a couch out in center field with a 2 way radio a teloscope and a box of dounuts lol i due belive drew may take one to the back though

FLMeth06
08-28-2010, 03:40 PM
It's not cheating. Gotta hide your signs, gotta not tip your pitches.

Agreed.

nithanyo
08-28-2010, 04:10 PM
This aint cheating.

terp12354
08-28-2010, 04:55 PM
Absolutely not cheating and great baseball play by Drew. Giants need to hdie their pitches better and its all on them. Only thing I will say is IF they KNOW Drew is tipping pitches, hit him the next time up to get him to stop. other than that its perfectly legal and a great baseball play. If the giants tried to 'protest' that game they would be laughed out of baseball. Hate to sound like a jerk but this is obviously coming from someone young who hasn't played baseball before and doesn't know this is a perfectly normal aspect of the game just like hitting with a bat and throwing with a baseball.

Crucis
08-28-2010, 05:00 PM
One should also point out that there's a difference between stealing a catcher's signs and seeing what grip a pitcher is using to hold the ball. One might argue that stealing the signs might ... might ... be cheating. BUT if a runner on 2B happens to see what grip the pitcher is using and relays that to the hitter, that's the PITCHER's fault. A smart pitcher sets his grip inside of his glove right at the start of his windup (whether in the stretch or full windup), rather than setting his grip where everyone can see.

Eyegazym27
08-28-2010, 05:29 PM
if u can give ure team an edge in any way u do it, especially when its within the rules. nothing illegal about what Drew did in any way as its part of baseball. the only ones at fault are Lincecum and Posey

Gigantes4Life
08-28-2010, 06:03 PM
It's not cheating. It's called Lincecum sucks dick.

tuck25
08-28-2010, 06:06 PM
You have to be kidding, right. Its not cheating if the pitcher isnt smart enough to hid his pitches and if its a flaw in his delivery the he needs to make an adjustment. Its BASEBALL not cheating!!wow

StealingSigns
08-28-2010, 07:18 PM
How is this cheating?? It's rudimentary baseball: don't broadcast to the other team what pitch you are about to hurl at them.

CAIN=FUTURE
08-28-2010, 07:28 PM
typical san francisco guy arent you used to getting pounded by now:facepalm:

Im not even from San Francisco, idiot. Why don't you be quiet and be happy the A's are even still in Oakland. And the Raiders for that matter... and the Warriors lmao.

CAIN=FUTURE
08-28-2010, 07:31 PM
For me, I have always been on the fence about sign stealing, but as many of you pointed out Tim should do a better job at hiding them. Although, it is a so called "unwritten rule" not to steal signs, so I wouldn't be surprised to see some retaliation, but if they didn't retaliate I wouldn't be surprised either. And just to let everyone know, Timmy is gonna open a can of whoop *** on the month of September.

avrpatsfan
08-28-2010, 07:47 PM
Nothing wrong with tipping pitches if you're on the same team. Now what Arod did, that's not good.

thegamebit
08-28-2010, 08:06 PM
Im not even from San Francisco, idiot. Why don't you be quiet and be happy the A's are even still in Oakland. And the Raiders for that matter... and the Warriors lmao.

rofl

Dr.Philly
08-28-2010, 08:09 PM
Naw nobody cheated

Lil' Timmy just got his butt pwn3d

lol

FLMeth06
08-28-2010, 09:36 PM
Naw nobody cheated

Lil' Timmy just got his butt pwn3d

lol

I can't stop looking at your sig :speechless:

koreancabbage
08-28-2010, 10:30 PM
tipping pitches shouldn't be "cheating". you do it right in the open and anyone from 2nd can see it. You can watch videos of catchers doing their signs and that can lead to some advanced scouting for players who end up at 2nd relaying it back to the batter.

if your signs are too evident, i swear you better find new ones.

jlohm1
08-28-2010, 10:56 PM
its not cheating. if he wants to tip his own pitches then thats his own problem. good job for Drew for noticing it.

nyyfan4life
08-29-2010, 01:59 AM
They should protest this game based of an unwritten rule?

MDfootball36
08-29-2010, 02:00 AM
majority of players do it, and it will always be a part of the game

Gigantes4Life
08-29-2010, 02:02 AM
They should protest this game based of an unwritten rule?

We should protest on Lincecum sucking balls.

BigLee53
08-29-2010, 02:10 AM
i give Drew credit. Lincecum made the mistake, and paid the price. its part of the game.

Havoc Wreaker
08-29-2010, 03:04 AM
Not.

TRUTH-TELLER
08-29-2010, 06:06 AM
not cheating. they should hide the signs better.

LAFord
08-29-2010, 06:39 AM
That's the way to go Drew! That's not cheating. It minght get someone thrown at, but it's part of the game.

Now doing it like the NY Giants(Thompson's HR-"the giants win the pennant, the giants win the pennant, blah blah...) and the Phillies do it is illegal.

xxseven72ducexx
08-29-2010, 07:40 AM
dude stop being a clown cuz you're a Giants fan...you're gonna protest because your ace isn't winning games anymore? I love Lincecum don't get me wrong, I root for him everytime they throw him out there but if he's not hiding his pitches well enough for the base-runners to pick them up then there's no one to blame but Timmy...you can't protest the fact that Stephen Drew has a high baseball IQ and is able to help his teammates out when he finds a chance to do so...If you don't want this to happen go and tell Lincecum to fix his delivery to where no1 sees the ball until it's coming out of his hand otherwise you're just gonna have to take it and weep

Crucis
08-29-2010, 01:20 PM
not cheating. they should hide the signs better.

This wasn't a case of "sign-stealing". It was a case of the pitcher tipping his pitches by setting his grip behind his back in plain view of the runner on 2B. Actual sign-stealing may or may not be against the rules... I don't know. However, catching a pitcher tipping his pitches and relaying the info to the hitter isn't the same as sign-stealing.

No smart veteran pitcher should EVER set his grip in plain view. They should set their grip inside the glove at the very start of their windup, so as not to provide a clear view of the grip or give anyone that might see the grip any time to pass the info to the hitter.

MelkyNYY
08-29-2010, 01:24 PM
It's only cheating if A-Rod does it.

Halladay
08-29-2010, 02:43 PM
For me, I have always been on the fence about sign stealing, but as many of you pointed out Tim should do a better job at hiding them. Although, it is a so called "unwritten rule" not to steal signs, so I wouldn't be surprised to see some retaliation, but if they didn't retaliate I wouldn't be surprised either. And just to let everyone know, Timmy is gonna open a can of whoop *** on the month of September.

Are you kidding? There's no unwritten rule. Every team does it, some make it more obvious then others when they do steal signs. Your team does it, so does my team. It's part of the game. If there was no stealing signs in baseball then you wouldn't see catchers go through shitloads of signs before a pitch is thrown. They aren't doing that for fun, they're doing it because there's someone on second TRYING TO STEAL THE SIGN. lol.

Sandman
08-29-2010, 03:00 PM
It's only cheating if A-Rod does it.


http://www.faniq.com/blog/Alex-Rodriguez-Accused-Of-Tipping-Pitches-To-Opposing-Hitters-Blog-23146
In one shocking disclosure, the book accuses A-Rod of "pitch tipping" when he was with the Rangers - letting a friendly opponent at the plate know which pitch was coming in lopsided games.

Rodriguez expected players he helped would do the same for him when he was having an off night and needed to get his batting average up and it wouldn't affect the outcome of the game.

The allegations are much different.

A-Rod was also notorious for wearing his shades and trying to steal signs from the catcher... while he was in the batters box.

zambo4president
08-29-2010, 04:10 PM
No way is it cheating. It's fair game, if your smart enough to pick up his signs then you use em. As a pitcher though, You try and steal my signs the next pitch is a warning shot straight to the head.

Melo15
08-29-2010, 04:17 PM
Funny thing is they just had this problem in the Little League World Series too. The baserunner on second for Georgia was calling out the pitches to the batter and really rattled the Ohio team. In my opinion, it's just good baseball.


There was a little intrigue later when Ohio manager Ken Coomer said his team had some trouble in Georgia's three-run first inning because Georgia was stealing signs.

Hicks, who doubled to lead off the game, admitted to giving his team an advantage -- though he wasn't doing a good job of being discreet.

"It was pretty obvious," the 12-year-old catcher joked. "Might as well say, 'Hey, I'm giving the signs."

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/llws10/news/story?id=5493296

ATL#22
08-29-2010, 05:19 PM
Hows it cheating? Don't tip your pitches. Hitting is hard enough so batters are looking for any advantage they can get.

ritz
08-29-2010, 06:56 PM
Tip your cap to Drew on that one. He took advantage. That's baseball, dude.