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View Full Version : Honey Moon over with Yunel?



JetLi
08-25-2010, 10:57 AM
I've followed the Jays for a long time, and I have been to 200+ games the last 4 years (only last night this year as I have moved quite a distance away from the Roger's Centre), but Yunel is starting to cheese me off a bit. I have to admit, his plays at SS can be spectacular, and he burst onto the scene in a Jays' uniform for me too, but things like tracking everything in the infield when it's not his ball or insisting on turning DPs to short himself (running to 2nd and throwing to first) or turning off the jets 3/4 of the way to first on a ground out is starting to bug me. I attended my first game last night and at least 3 plays stood out for me.

1) Last out of the 6th, he fielded a ground ball and ran to 2nd for the 3rd out by force out even though Hill was standing right there.
2) He waited for the ground ball instead of charging with 2on in the 7th leading to a infield base hit. I know a runner ran in front of him, but still, he just stood there.
3) He had a hit to deep SS in one inning (can't remember which) and I figured he was guaranteed an infield single with his speed, only to see him turn off the jets about 5 strides to first and get thrown out.

I'm not sure what he's thinking and I don't know if this is what Bobby Cox was saying in Atlanta, but after watching Snider hustle down to first and beat out 2 ground-outs into infield singles yesterday with less speed than Escobar, I think he needs to be brought back into check. Bautista hits dingers and puts his head down and runs the bases relatively hard, Snider digs hard to first on a ground ball, Hill only has one speed when he isn't striking out this year, even Vernon is thinking infield hit on every ground ball this year. Heck, Molina has stolen a base this year once and has beat out a few infield singles, what makes Yunel so special?

Now don't get me wrong, I watched that back glove flip to 2nd several weeks ago about 15 times on the PVR and insisted my fiancee watch it in slow mo a few times to see how special it was, and he has a cannon from deep in the hole to first, I think he's quite the special player. But I definitely think it's better to get his mentality into a Team first vs Me first player. Maybe it's just me, but it seems he's always looking to be the Man in the field and is taking some of is special abilities for granted. I love watching him play, but watching him play at 100% all the time like Johnny Mac or Aaron Hill or anyone would make him that much more fun to watch for me. Am I being nit picky or has anyone else noticed something's off about him as a player?

Eagles4Lyfe
08-25-2010, 11:11 AM
wttf give me a break dude we havent had someone like him in years, im not going to start bagging on him and his potential...Hell be solid for us next season

2009mvp
08-25-2010, 11:14 AM
Bautista hits dingers and puts his head down and runs the bases relatively hard,

Are you sure we're talking about the same guy? I see a guy who mixes in a Sosa-esque hop out of the box with a giant bat flip and the occasional stare down. (For the record, I don't care about that stuff, but using Bautista as an example doesn't work here).

But I completely see where you're coming from on Escobar. To add to what you said he does seem to be ****ing a lot and looks like a bit of a whiny child out there sometimes. He's still an incredibly talented ballplayer, one of the best gloves in the game and a guy who's gonna give you a solid OBP from the SS spot, but he is a temperamental ballplayer who you're probably not getting everything out of him night in night out. You can still win with those guys, especially when they're as talented as he is, but a lot of the luster has certainly rubbed off from when he first arrived in Toronto.

nithanyo
08-25-2010, 11:51 AM
Are you sure we're talking about the same guy? I see a guy who mixes in a Sosa-esque hop out of the box with a giant bat flip and the occasional stare down. (For the record, I don't care about that stuff, but using Bautista as an example doesn't work here).

But I completely see where you're coming from on Escobar. To add to what you said he does seem to be ****ing a lot and looks like a bit of a whiny child out there sometimes. He's still an incredibly talented ballplayer, one of the best gloves in the game and a guy who's gonna give you a solid OBP from the SS spot, but he is a temperamental ballplayer who you're probably not getting everything out of him night in night out. You can still win with those guys, especially when they're as talented as he is, but a lot of the luster has certainly rubbed off from when he first arrived in Toronto.

Did you see the other night where a hr went off the pole and he was at third base before he relized it was a homerun???

And of his 40 jacks one of em was an inside the parker.... And you need hustle to do that

Sure he does do the bat flip and stare down occasionally, but who doesnt?

Bjaxn45
08-25-2010, 12:01 PM
Are you sure we're talking about the same guy? I see a guy who mixes in a Sosa-esque hop out of the box with a giant bat flip and the occasional stare down. (For the record, I don't care about that stuff, but using Bautista as an example doesn't work here).

But I completely see where you're coming from on Escobar. To add to what you said he does seem to be ****ing a lot and looks like a bit of a whiny child out there sometimes. He's still an incredibly talented ballplayer, one of the best gloves in the game and a guy who's gonna give you a solid OBP from the SS spot, but he is a temperamental ballplayer who you're probably not getting everything out of him night in night out. You can still win with those guys, especially when they're as talented as he is, but a lot of the luster has certainly rubbed off from when he first arrived in Toronto.

Agree with alot of what you said. Although I don't think the OP was getting at his hustle on Hr's, I think he meant that Bautista hustles the bases period. Nobody hustles after a dinger unless they didn't think they got it all and figure they might be looking at a 3 bagger.

Johann
08-25-2010, 12:04 PM
Did you see the other night where a hr went off the pole and he was at third base before he relized it was a homerun???

And of his 40 jacks one of em was an inside the parker.... And you need hustle to do that

Sure he does do the bat flip and stare down occasionally, but who doesnt?

i believe hes had two inside-the-park homeruns.
i think the one you are talkin about was actually an inside the park hr

one was against oakland recently, and the other was against the twins in july

AmmoWasted
08-25-2010, 12:15 PM
i believe hes had two inside-the-park homeruns.
i think the one you are talkin about was actually an inside the park hr

one was against oakland recently, and the other was against the twins in july

I think the one against Oakland went off the foul pole, but no one saw it and assumed it was in play.

BlueJayFanDan
08-25-2010, 01:15 PM
This thread is kind of ridiculous...

bomber0104
08-25-2010, 01:22 PM
I'd rather have the player run to tag the base himself if he can rather than throw it and risk an error not matter of minimal the chances of that happening

JetLi
08-25-2010, 01:27 PM
...

But I completely see where you're coming from on Escobar. To add to what you said he does seem to be ****ing a lot and looks like a bit of a whiny child out there sometimes. He's still an incredibly talented ballplayer, one of the best gloves in the game and a guy who's gonna give you a solid OBP from the SS spot, but he is a temperamental ballplayer who you're probably not getting everything out of him night in night out. You can still win with those guys, especially when they're as talented as he is, but a lot of the luster has certainly rubbed off from when he first arrived in Toronto.

I think I've poorly misportrayed my point in this thread. All I meant is that he's a fantastic player who seems to want to be the guy all the time. I remember listening to a game the other day on the radio and Hill had to tell him to back off so Overbay could make the play. Or there was some variation of that by the announcers anyways. I know he can make all the plays himself, but maybe he just wants to involve some of the other players.... and bring back the hustle in all the Jays ads on TV. That's all I was getting at really. I love his playmaking abilities and we haven't had a hitter like him at SS in years.

wowzman
08-25-2010, 02:00 PM
I've followed the Jays for a long time, and I have been to 200+ games the last 4 years (only last night this year as I have moved quite a distance away from the Roger's Centre), but Yunel is starting to cheese me off a bit. I have to admit, his plays at SS can be spectacular, and he burst onto the scene in a Jays' uniform for me too, but things like tracking everything in the infield when it's not his ball or insisting on turning DPs to short himself (running to 2nd and throwing to first) or turning off the jets 3/4 of the way to first on a ground out is starting to bug me. I attended my first game last night and at least 3 plays stood out for me.

1) Last out of the 6th, he fielded a ground ball and ran to 2nd for the 3rd out by force out even though Hill was standing right there.
2) He waited for the ground ball instead of charging with 2on in the 7th leading to a infield base hit. I know a runner ran in front of him, but still, he just stood there.
3) He had a hit to deep SS in one inning (can't remember which) and I figured he was guaranteed an infield single with his speed, only to see him turn off the jets about 5 strides to first and get thrown out.

I'm not sure what he's thinking and I don't know if this is what Bobby Cox was saying in Atlanta, but after watching Snider hustle down to first and beat out 2 ground-outs into infield singles yesterday with less speed than Escobar, I think he needs to be brought back into check. Bautista hits dingers and puts his head down and runs the bases relatively hard, Snider digs hard to first on a ground ball, Hill only has one speed when he isn't striking out this year, even Vernon is thinking infield hit on every ground ball this year. Heck, Molina has stolen a base this year once and has beat out a few infield singles, what makes Yunel so special?

Now don't get me wrong, I watched that back glove flip to 2nd several weeks ago about 15 times on the PVR and insisted my fiancee watch it in slow mo a few times to see how special it was, and he has a cannon from deep in the hole to first, I think he's quite the special player. But I definitely think it's better to get his mentality into a Team first vs Me first player. Maybe it's just me, but it seems he's always looking to be the Man in the field and is taking some of is special abilities for granted. I love watching him play, but watching him play at 100% all the time like Johnny Mac or Aaron Hill or anyone would make him that much more fun to watch for me. Am I being nit picky or has anyone else noticed something's off about him as a player?

When able, it is much better to make the force at second yourself and then throw the ball to first on a DP ball to short. The less throws you have to make, whether it be an overhand throw or an underhand toss, reduces the chance of an error. He has a cannon for an arm so why not use it. It doesn't matter if Hill is waiting at the 2B bag or not, if the SS has the time to get to the bag and still make the throw to first, that is what he should do. Any SS in the league makes the same play, if he has the time to do so. Hill would do the same thing on a ball hit to second if he has the time.

And yes you are being nitpicky. The Jays have been trying to find a everyday SS for years. Now that we have one with both a good glove and good bat, and after only 32 games with us you want to complain about him because of your percieved lack of hustle on his part. Don't let his past history with the Braves cloud your judgement. Give him time. I think he will be everthing we want/need in a SS.

Johann
08-25-2010, 02:23 PM
I think the one against Oakland went off the foul pole, but no one saw it and assumed it was in play.

ur right, i just saw it

Manatoo
08-25-2010, 02:42 PM
He has a 11.7 UZR/150 (granted small sample size) what more could you want?

nads83
08-25-2010, 03:00 PM
yunel has been a breath of fresh air since hes gotten here. theres way too many players on the team that arent performing the way they need to be, to suggest anything negative about a guy whose actually doing his part is ridiculous.

Jays Claw
08-25-2010, 03:24 PM
Why are we picking on a player who's actually doing more than asked for?

Bjaxn45
08-25-2010, 03:28 PM
Let me just say I'm a huge Yunel guy. But I think the people that are saying it's rediculous to talk about this are wrong. He does have flaws, everybody does. He's flashy, he tends to be slightly casual at some points almost showing off. As it's been mentioned many times before, he's from Cuba and that's just the style they grew up playing.

Occasionally plays like the one in the 7th where although there was a runner in the way, he still could have charged it and made a proper throw. But for every one of those, he's making a great play that more than makes up for it.


Johan63, love the sig picture.

nads83
08-25-2010, 03:38 PM
Let me just say I'm a huge Yunel guy. But I think the people that are saying it's rediculous to talk about this are wrong. He does have flaws, everybody does. He's flashy, he tends to be slightly casual at some points almost showing off. As it's been mentioned many times before, he's from Cuba and that's just the style they grew up playing.

Occasionally plays like the one in the 7th where although there was a runner in the way, he still could have charged it and made a proper throw. But for every one of those, he's making a great play that more than makes up for it.


Johan63, love the sig picture.

lol give me a break. i love yunels approach to fielding. he makes it look effortless and cool. dont confuse making something look easy with being casual and not caring.

ramz.n
08-25-2010, 03:40 PM
why hate on his game..hes not going to change it just to please one fan with critisim..what if he charged the ball more often but missed it ..everyone would be complaining about how he charges the ball to much and fumbles around with it?..if he believes he can make it to 2nd base for the sure third out..why not..you never know when a player might take a cheap shot and go for hill's ankle or just full out hits him..noone is perfect or close to it..and if they were they would be in a jays uniform they would be in a yankees uniform making 20+m a season.

miller74
08-25-2010, 03:54 PM
I've followed the Jays for a long time, and I have been to 200+ games the last 4 years (only last night this year as I have moved quite a distance away from the Roger's Centre), but Yunel is starting to cheese me off a bit. I have to admit, his plays at SS can be spectacular, and he burst onto the scene in a Jays' uniform for me too, but things like tracking everything in the infield when it's not his ball or insisting on turning DPs to short himself (running to 2nd and throwing to first) or turning off the jets 3/4 of the way to first on a ground out is starting to bug me. I attended my first game last night and at least 3 plays stood out for me.

1) Last out of the 6th, he fielded a ground ball and ran to 2nd for the 3rd out by force out even though Hill was standing right there.
2) He waited for the ground ball instead of charging with 2on in the 7th leading to a infield base hit. I know a runner ran in front of him, but still, he just stood there.
3) He had a hit to deep SS in one inning (can't remember which) and I figured he was guaranteed an infield single with his speed, only to see him turn off the jets about 5 strides to first and get thrown out.

I'm not sure what he's thinking and I don't know if this is what Bobby Cox was saying in Atlanta, but after watching Snider hustle down to first and beat out 2 ground-outs into infield singles yesterday with less speed than Escobar, I think he needs to be brought back into check. Bautista hits dingers and puts his head down and runs the bases relatively hard, Snider digs hard to first on a ground ball, Hill only has one speed when he isn't striking out this year, even Vernon is thinking infield hit on every ground ball this year. Heck, Molina has stolen a base this year once and has beat out a few infield singles, what makes Yunel so special?

Now don't get me wrong, I watched that back glove flip to 2nd several weeks ago about 15 times on the PVR and insisted my fiancee watch it in slow mo a few times to see how special it was, and he has a cannon from deep in the hole to first, I think he's quite the special player. But I definitely think it's better to get his mentality into a Team first vs Me first player. Maybe it's just me, but it seems he's always looking to be the Man in the field and is taking some of is special abilities for granted. I love watching him play, but watching him play at 100% all the time like Johnny Mac or Aaron Hill or anyone would make him that much more fun to watch for me. Am I being nit picky or has anyone else noticed something's off about him as a player?

Doesn't that remind you of a former blue jay 2nd baseman, he wore #12?
Not that i think hes the next alomar but its something i can live with

icehawkmike
08-25-2010, 04:12 PM
95% of the league stops running to first before they get there.

JetLi
08-25-2010, 05:23 PM
Ok, it seems I'm the only one who sees things. I don't know anything about Yunel in Atlanta other than what I saw on the highlight reels and some old stats, which basically tells me nothing other than the fact he was struggling this year in Atlanta. I'm not purposely looking for something to hate on his game or him as a person, I am a nobody to judge pro ball players. If the teammates are cool with him, he's cool with me. And so I am clear - he's AMAZING at SS.

Kelly Gruber
08-25-2010, 07:00 PM
I think the OP must be a Braves fan in disguise...

Only way I can see dumping on Yunel at this point.

Bjaxn45
08-25-2010, 07:02 PM
lol give me a break. i love yunels approach to fielding. he makes it look effortless and cool. dont confuse making something look easy with being casual and not caring.

Well fine, he turned an infield chopper into an infield single, look easy haha.

Like I said, I really like the way he plays and think he's gonna be there for awhile or possibly move to 2nd in a couple years when Hech is ready. Buck Martinez or Tabbie, don't remember pointed it out. My whole point is not that he's a bad fielder, it's that it's not rediculous to mention these things.

I myself and I'm sure 99% of people are more than happy to put up with that once in awhile just because he is so amazing defensively. But some people might not see it that way.

Billyen
08-25-2010, 07:19 PM
He's a bum...sent him to the White Sox and let them pick up his contract....oh wait...we did that already.

Good player but, I do get the OP's point. He's got that "I'm gods gift to baseball look about him." It's a concern if he get's better as that as*&$lo stuff will come to the top. If he does poorly he's winge in the clubhouse. Dam I miss Paul Molitor and John Olerud.

T.O. Fan
08-25-2010, 08:18 PM
Doesn't that remind you of a former blue jay 2nd baseman, he wore #12?
Not that i think hes the next alomar but its something i can live with

Not that I remember at all.

I recall Alomar sliding to first on a number of occassions.

dtmagnet
08-25-2010, 08:29 PM
He's always willing to lay the sac bunt down and such, I haven't seen enough bad to say he's not giving it 100% out there.

McJoe
08-26-2010, 10:07 AM
While I agree with the first post and mvp's posts. I think that sometimes you do have to deal with that when you have such a good ball player at such a premium position. If he was a 3rd baseman or a corner outfielder I would be on board with the "Honeymoon over" thing on Yunie (even though he has been quite good) but as a SS you kind of just have to deal with it.

He's hitting .287/.340/.397/.737 with 3 homers and 12 RBI in 33 games. But you definitely notice that he is lazy. There is no way he should have 4 errors as a Jay. They aren't good errors...

adid727
08-27-2010, 05:40 AM
escobar is great. :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

jrice9
08-27-2010, 10:32 AM
My concern with him is mostly that his power still hasnt returned and that is what made him such a great shortstop

koreancabbage
08-27-2010, 10:35 AM
I think the one against Oakland went off the foul pole, but no one saw it and assumed it was in play.

it was a homerun. not an inside the park homerun. it went off the pole and after a lengthy discussion after the game, it was counted as a regular homerun.

flea
08-27-2010, 10:48 AM
Don't worry, Yunel will just disappoint you. He's very talented as a defender and has a lot of offensive potential but he seems to think he's already a top player at his position and frequently does idiotic things like not hustling, flipping his bat, or starting **** with someone. I wish him and the Blue Jays the best as a Braves fan but I just don't think this guy is ever going to do anything but disappoint - even if he is a pretty good player while he does it.

Kelly Gruber
08-27-2010, 04:04 PM
Don't worry, Yunel will just disappoint you. He's very talented as a defender and has a lot of offensive potential but he seems to think he's already a top player at his position and frequently does idiotic things like not hustling, flipping his bat, or starting **** with someone. I wish him and the Blue Jays the best as a Braves fan but I just don't think this guy is ever going to do anything but disappoint - even if he is a pretty good player while he does it.

Man Braves fans need to get over this trade! Every time Yunel gets mentioned a Braves fan has to pipe up and tell us how bad Yunel is. Insecure about the deal much?

Guess what? We're not dissapointed at all! Like you said, "he's very talented as a defender and has a lot of offensive potential," for a team in our position that's perfect/. He's been a breathe of fresh air for this team. And we got him for a scrap-heap FA signing, and a couple mediocre specs. Read this thread, no one is actually dissapointed with Yunel. Happy to have him grow with our team. And if his attitude becomes too much for the team we'll move on, still hard for the Jays to lose this trade. Considering Gonzalez has fallen back to his normal stats, we sold high on him and got a SS with A LOT of potential. We're supposed to be dissapointed because he doesn't run out grounders everytime and can be a little casual on defence? He still makes the plays he just does it with style. That's allowed in Toronto. We have a history of flashy players and we're more than happy to take our chances with Yunel. He might be the best overall player on our team since the trade.

flea
08-27-2010, 05:02 PM
He's at the end of his age 27 season, he doesn't really have potential anymore. People have been saying he has potential for 3 years, but at best it's unfulfilled potential at this point. I'm not telling you he's bad, I'm telling you he's going to disappoint.

Personally I was glad to see him go, but I hope the best for him and your club. I felt the Braves perhaps sold a little low on him but I really didn't want to pay him arbitration next year so we might as well have gotten a SS upgrade for this year. That doesn't mean I'm bitter about him or the trade - it means he didn't fit in and I wish him the best.

Bjaxn45
08-27-2010, 05:30 PM
He's at the end of his age 27 season, he doesn't really have potential anymore. People have been saying he has potential for 3 years, but at best it's unfulfilled potential at this point. I'm not telling you he's bad, I'm telling you he's going to disappoint.

Personally I was glad to see him go, but I hope the best for him and your club. I felt the Braves perhaps sold a little low on him but I really didn't want to pay him arbitration next year so we might as well have gotten a SS upgrade for this year. That doesn't mean I'm bitter about him or the trade - it means he didn't fit in and I wish him the best.

I find Jays fans are very insecure about this trade and I have no idea why. I can understand why some Braves fans feel the way they do. He came onto the scene and was hitting .300 and playing plus defense from the word go. He really hasn't progressed like Braves fans thought he would have. Plus he's lost his power. You're point about disapointing is very relative though.

I don't know why you say he can't have any potential left though, 27 is basically entering a players prime. I think he can progress but I can honestly see him being what he is. And there's nothing wrong with that either. I think even if Yunel is a .275-.300 hitter with high obp, plus defense and the occasional mental error, I'm more than willing to live with that.

Kelly Gruber
08-27-2010, 05:43 PM
He's at the end of his age 27 season, he doesn't really have potential anymore. People have been saying he has potential for 3 years, but at best it's unfulfilled potential at this point. I'm not telling you he's bad, I'm telling you he's going to disappoint.

Personally I was glad to see him go, but I hope the best for him and your club. I felt the Braves perhaps sold a little low on him but I really didn't want to pay him arbitration next year so we might as well have gotten a SS upgrade for this year. That doesn't mean I'm bitter about him or the trade - it means he didn't fit in and I wish him the best.

You're the one who said he had pontential!!! And if you think a ball player has no more room to grow at 27, you're sorely mistaken.

Waiting for 3 years? He was +12 defensively (about 10 above average) and hit .288 in 514 AB, while hitting 10 HR in 2008. In 2009 he hit .299 with 14 dingers in 528 AB, and commited 2 errors in the last 75 games of that season. Granted he had a poor start to this season, but what exactly were you waiting for? That's a pretty good SS. And I can distinctly remember Braves fans lobbying for him as their team MVP in that time.

Didn't want to pay him? He's making like 450, 000 this year, and hasn't had the greatest year, his contract will be less than Gonzalez next year presumably, who has an option for 2.5. If they weren't going to pay Yunel, why would they potentially pay Gonzalez more?

Sorry man, but you still sound like a bitter Braves fan to me.

flea
08-27-2010, 06:06 PM
You're the one who said he had pontential!!! And if you think a ball player has no more room to grow at 27, you're sorely mistaken.

Waiting for 3 years? He was +12 defensively (about 10 above average) and hit .288 in 514 AB, while hitting 10 HR in 2008. In 2009 he hit .299 with 14 dingers in 528 AB, and commited 2 errors in the last 75 games of that season. Granted he had a poor start to this season, but what exactly were you waiting for? That's a pretty good SS. And I can distinctly remember Braves fans lobbying for him as their team MVP in that time.

Didn't want to pay him? He's making like 450, 000 this year, and hasn't had the greatest year, his contract will be less than Gonzalez next year presumably, who has an option for 2.5. If they weren't going to pay Yunel, why would they potentially pay Gonzalez more?

Sorry man, but you still sound like a bitter Braves fan to me.

Yunel will be in his first year of arbitration next year, meaning he won't make 450,000. Ryan Theriot got $2.6 million this year in his first year of arbitration, and that was after the Cubs won their case (Theriot asked for 3.4). Yunel will get at least 3.5, and probably closer to $5 million (or more) next year. Neither me nor Braves ownership wanted to pay him that much. Gonzalez is a discount at 2.5.

Twitchy
08-27-2010, 06:18 PM
Yunel will be in his first year of arbitration next year, meaning he won't make 450,000. Ryan Theriot got $2.6 million this year in his first year of arbitration, and that was after the Cubs won their case (Theriot asked for 3.4). Yunel will get at least 3.5, and probably closer to $5 million (or more) next year. Neither me nor Braves ownership wanted to pay him that much. Gonzalez is a discount at 2.5.

I wouldn't expect Yunel to get nearly that much after his poor year. I know he's better than his year line suggests, but coming of a season with a 250 BA, and low RBI/run totals, the arbitrators aren't likely to give him a ton of money. The arbitrators aren't likely to use advanced stats, or look at his past success.

In an earlier post you mentioned he acts like a top SS when he isn't, and I'm not sure that's accurate. He's not a superstar like Hanley, but he's gotta be in the next tier of SS's. Over the past 3 years, Yunel ranks 4th among SS in the majors in WAR (10.5), fourth in UZR (12.6 over that time) and 7th in OPS (764).

WAR and UZR have their respective flaws, but I think the general idea is that Escobar is an outstanding defensive SS, and combined with his above average bat for the position, that he's one of the better SS's in the league. Given how weak the rest of the AL SS's are, he may be among the top SS in the AL (assuming Jeter's decline is real, there isn't anybody else who really stands out except Andrus).

So you may not feel he's worth 5M, and maybe he's not coming off the year he's had, but his performance has shown that he's one of the better SS's in the league. I haven't watched every game, or watched every inning, but I haven't seen Escobar's supposed lack of hustle, or a lack of focus. What I see is a very talented SS who the Jays are very lucky to have.

flea
08-27-2010, 07:03 PM
You think you have it both ways - on the one hand you say Yunel is one of the better shortstops in the league (something I'd never dispute) and you're lucky to have him but on the other hand you believe the arbitration committee is going to use tunnel vision and look at only his 2010 counting stats. If you've followed arbitration hearings in baseball at all in the last 10 years you know this is not at all the case. Unless Yunel fires his agent and decides to sell himself to the committee he's going to get paid a lot of money.

Do you think some Blue Jays fans on a sports forum are the only ones who know he's a good shortstop? Of course not. Ryan Theriot is a very mediocre, and probably well below average, shortstop and he made a lot of money while losing his case. Yunel is going to be expensive, make no mistake. I'm glad there's optimism around him and I wish him and your team the best, mainly because I like seeing the Yankees and Red Sox lose, but I do feel he'll disappoint for the money. He already has for the Braves and they lost patience and decided to trade him rather than pay him. We'll see how he fares up north.

Twitchy
08-27-2010, 07:58 PM
A lot of the complaints against Yunel are like the ones I heard about Rios when he was a Jay, or very talented guys like Beltran. "He's lazy. He doesn't play hard enough. He doesn't focus. His defense is lousy/overrated.". Most of the time it's really not the case, and again, from what I've seen, it isn't the case with Escobar. I'm not disputing what happened with the Braves or what you saw, but not having seen it for myself I can't argue one way or the other. I've heard other Brave fans argue the exact opposite, so I can't put too much stock into it one way or the other.

I think he rubs people the wrong way because he doesn't look serious enough. I see him as a guy who genuinely enjoys playing the game. If he makes a mistake, it's chopped up to overconfidence/arrogance or a lack of focus, which I haven't found to be the case in his limited time here. I know they're going to make mistakes, and I've seen some of the things the OP complained about and I didn't think most of them were true either.

I don't think the Jays are going to regret paying him, especially if he's only making 5M in arbitration. A 750 OPS SS with a plus glove is easily worth that, and I find it hard to believe that Escobar isn't capable of doing that. As for my comment about the arbitrator - yes, they're going to hear about his past stats, but as a guy with low counting stats (HR/RBI/runs/SB) and a low BA in recent years, it's unlikely he'll get a ton of money. And I'd think they'd put more weight on the current year.

FlakeyFool
08-28-2010, 08:36 PM
The guy has a rocket of an arm and is amazing defensively. Gonzo is back to earth and those prospect we gave up will amount to nothing.

jrice9
08-28-2010, 11:55 PM
Since the trade:

.280 .340 .385 .724 for Yunel. His power still hasnt recovered which is a bit concerning but this with his defense already makes him one if not the best shortstop we've had in a long time and if his power comes around he might be our best shortstop since Tony.


I'm not sure why anyone is saying Alex is slowing down.
.275 .340 .458 .797 are his numbers with the Braves with the OPS being virtually the same just with more OBP but less power

Bjaxn45
08-29-2010, 12:42 PM
I'm going to make this easy. Flea is ripping on him because although he is/was one of the best shortstops in the league, Braves fans expected more from him just because of the type of prospect he was. I remember when he came up with the Braves, everybody I knew who followed the Braves was excited, not to the extent of Heyward though.

And like I said before, even if he doesn't progress, he's still a top SS in the league just because of his D and his avg/obp. The only thing that scares he is the complete loss of power. That and not a problem for me but his "speed" is so overrated.

Asham
08-29-2010, 03:57 PM
Braves fans seem to like Gonzalez, Jays fans seem to like Escobar. So what the hell is everybody arguing about?

Billyen
08-29-2010, 07:36 PM
A lot of the complaints against Yunel are like the ones I heard about Rios when he was a Jay,

Ah Rois....good times...good times.

wamco
09-05-2010, 12:37 PM
749 vs 732 ops advantage for Gonzo as of today since the trade

LechWalesa
09-05-2010, 07:52 PM
All things considered the players are probably about equal this year. This trade was more about two teams addressing their own concerns -- i.e. the Jays getting a long term solution at SS and the Braves getting rid of a guy who they didn't think was a good fit on their team anymore.

I don't see the reason for all the debate.

StealingSigns
09-05-2010, 10:21 PM
749 vs 732 ops advantage for Gonzo as of today since the trade

Gonzalez is having a career year. Lets look at it.

His current WAR value is 3.5. His only other year where he had a 3.0 or above was the 3.0 year he put together in 2003. He has averaged 1.0 WAR over his career.

Escobar is currently sitting at 2.1. His average WAR is 3.0 over his career.

Gonzalez is playing way above his head this year, not unlike Scutaro last year. AA cashed in at the right time.

I'm not worried about Escobar, he will turn it around, and resemble more like the player who had a career .805 OPS before coming into this year, while Gonzalez is likely to revert back to his career .669 OPS before 2010.

Asham
09-05-2010, 11:43 PM
Lets trade Escobar back for Gonzalez. Hell, lets give them Drabek too just to sweeten the deal

wamco
09-06-2010, 07:19 AM
The deal was a highway robbery.