PDA

View Full Version : #4 SF in The NBA? (Volume 3 Edition)



Mile High Champ
08-21-2010, 02:29 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last two years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

SF Rankings DONT FORGET TO VOTE!!

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)




2009 Off Season SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Carmelo Anthony
3) Kevin Durant
4) Paul Pierce
5) Danny Granger
6) Andre Iguodala
7) Caron Butler
8) Hedo Turkoglu
9) Ron Artest
10) Stephen Jackson

2008 Off-Season SF rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Paul Pierce
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Caron Butler
5) Ron Artest
6) Shawn Marion
7) Josh Smith
8) Richard Jefferson
9) Lamar Odom
10) Tayshaun Prince

Chacarron
08-21-2010, 02:33 PM
Has to be Pierce.

Mile High Champ
08-21-2010, 02:33 PM
At this stage of the game, I am going with Granger. I think he has become better than Pierce.

Switch
08-21-2010, 02:33 PM
Danny Granger

Avenged
08-21-2010, 02:34 PM
My vote goes to the 1 time Finals MVP Paul Pierce.

Minimal
08-21-2010, 02:34 PM
I'm going with Gerald Wallace

YankeesNets11
08-21-2010, 02:35 PM
Danny Granger

Jays Claw
08-21-2010, 02:38 PM
It has to be the former finals MVP, Paul Pierce.

sofargone
08-21-2010, 02:38 PM
I say Pierce.

NBA-GMaster
08-21-2010, 02:38 PM
Danny G..

Khalifa21
08-21-2010, 02:39 PM
My vote goes to Granger.

sofargone
08-21-2010, 02:39 PM
Finally, one of these is close.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 02:39 PM
this is where the debate starts peeps. Its obviously between Granger, Pierce, and Wallace.
I am going with Wallace. And the reason is, he beat them both pretty easily in win shares, is a dominant rebounder, and still manages to score with good efficiency. Careful using per game numbers, Wallace plays a TON MORE than Pierce. Granger missed 20 games or so last year, but I think he may pass Wallace's play from last year this upcoming season. But until proven otherwise for me, its Wallace. He is so versatile on both ends.

Here is the player comparison, broken down

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=piercpa01&y1=2010&p2=wallage01&y2=2010&p3=grangda01&y3=2010

dhopisthename
08-21-2010, 02:41 PM
I picked wallace plays good defense and rebounds very well all while being no slouch on offense

97NYer
08-21-2010, 02:42 PM
Granger for me.

DCSportsIsPain
08-21-2010, 02:44 PM
Wallace's WS, DWS and WS/48 are impossible to overlook here. Especially in combination with 10 RPG from the SF position.

NBA-GMaster
08-21-2010, 02:45 PM
You forgot to include Iggy.. Andre Iguodala ;)

Avenged
08-21-2010, 02:46 PM
this is where the debate starts peeps. Its obviously between Granger, Pierce, and Wallace.
I am going with Wallace. And the reason is, he beat them both pretty easily in win shares, is a dominant rebounder, and still manages to score with good efficiency. Careful using per game numbers, Wallace plays a TON MORE than Pierce. Granger missed 20 games or so last year, but I think he may pass Wallace's play from last year this upcoming season. But until proven otherwise for me, its Wallace. He is so versatile on both ends.

Here is the player comparison, broken down

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=piercpa01&y1=2010&p2=wallage01&y2=2010&p3=grangda01&y3=2010

Wallace is pretty much the first option in Charlotte meanwhile Pierce has so many weapons on his team. Wallace is the better defender, but his defensive stats could be inflated just by being the main guy down there (not saying Pierce is a better defender because he isn't). They're both actually really close in my opinion, but Pierce has the intangibles something in which I think people are underestimating and his stats are pretty good.

Baller1
08-21-2010, 02:48 PM
I'll take Pierce.

stejay
08-21-2010, 02:52 PM
I'm gonna go Paul Pierce

netsgiantsyanks
08-21-2010, 02:53 PM
danny granger for me

Ovratd1up
08-21-2010, 03:01 PM
Wallace here. But I do have a feeling at the same time next year it will be Granger.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 03:08 PM
Wallace is pretty much the first option in Charlotte meanwhile Pierce has so many weapons on his team. Wallace is the better defender, but his defensive stats could be inflated just by being the main guy down there (not saying Pierce is a better defender because he isn't). They're both actually really close in my opinion, but Pierce has the intangibles something in which I think people are underestimating and his stats are pretty good.

I think this is where the debates get good. I can't possibly retort, with reasoning, that Wallace is clearly better. So if one makes a good argument, there is nothing I can do but say,

fair enough

Mile High Champ
08-21-2010, 03:09 PM
I have my own problems with using win shares... Biggest being this general criticism..

Is that players who play for teams that win more games than expected, based on the Pythagorean expectation, receive more win shares than players whose team wins fewer games than expected. Since a team exceeding or falling short of its Pythagorean expectation is generally acknowledged as chance, some believe.. that credit should not be assigned purely based on team wins

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 03:10 PM
Its easy to see why some young players, rate certain players better than others. Not mentioning names, etc. But its very hard for many fans, to step away from career achievement mode, and evaluate who is better today, right now. This is why many vets who have declined slightly, get the nod. Especially if they play for a great team that gives them coverage for their developed inefficiencies.
Again, not saying names, but some of these votes seem to be career achievement awards throughout the rankings.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 03:10 PM
I have my own problems with using win shares... Biggest being this general criticism..

Is that players who play for teams that win more games than expected, based on the Pythagorean expectation, receive more win shares than players whose team wins fewer games than expected. Since a team exceeding or falling short of its Pythagorean expectation is generally acknowledged as chance, some believe.. that credit should not be assigned purely based on team wins

Wallace's team had 44 wins, yet he was top 6 in the NBA in win shares.
Its actually a great statistic to use.

Mile High Champ
08-21-2010, 03:12 PM
Wallace's team had 44 wins, yet he was top 6 in the NBA in win shares.
Its actually a great statistic to use.


But what was the expectation of how many teams wins charlotte would get before last season started? I am not attacking Wallace at all here. I just think win shares has been a very iffy stat in baseball and it has only recently been applied to basketball.

Avenged
08-21-2010, 03:14 PM
I think team success should play a factor into this discussion considering it's still among the top 5. If you're top 5 in your position, I mean, the way I see it, the player should be able to take their team somewhere. Granger hasn't done that yet. Wallace has, taking his team to the playoffs.

Pierce is slowly declining but his stats are still there, he's a leader on a championship team, and knows how to win period.

It's Pierce vs. Wallace for me.

cmellofan15
08-21-2010, 03:16 PM
Wallace is pretty much the first option in Charlotte meanwhile Pierce has so many weapons on his team. Wallace is the better defender, but his defensive stats could be inflated just by being the main guy down there (not saying Pierce is a better defender because he isn't). They're both actually really close in my opinion, but Pierce has the intangibles something in which I think people are underestimating and his stats are pretty good.

how can your defensive stats be inflated? and Wallace isn't the first option it's Stephen Jackson, Pierce is the actual first option on the Celtics. they averaged the same amount of ppg and Boston only scored 5 more points per game. The Celtics have a a little less dependency on Pierce's scoring but it's not a lot. with that being said I'm going Wallace.

The Raven
08-21-2010, 03:17 PM
I would say Danny Granger

MiamiWadeCounty
08-21-2010, 03:20 PM
i like gallinari jk. ill go with granger he has a nice feel

Avenged
08-21-2010, 03:21 PM
how can your defensive stats be inflated? and Wallace isn't the first option it's Stephen Jackson, Pierce is the actual first option on the Celtics. they averaged the same amount of ppg and Boston only scored 5 more points per game. The Celtics have a a little less dependency on Pierce's scoring but it's not a lot. with that being said I'm going Wallace.

Because the Celtics are a team orientated defense. They all play together defensively. Not saying Wallace's team doesn't, but the Celtics are among the best in the league in doing so.

I wouldn't say Pierce is the first option, I'd go with Rondo, I mean the kid carried them into the playoffs and was their best player throughout the season. They have weapons offensively and defensively which means Pierce doesn't have to do a whole bunch. I mean, put Pierce on the Pacers and all of a sudden his stats go a bit up.

loufor2
08-21-2010, 03:23 PM
Where is iguodala!!!!!!!!???????

TheTakeOver24
08-21-2010, 03:31 PM
Tough one,
but I'll go with Granger... at this point he's more of a offensive threat than Pierce.

gbpackers12
08-21-2010, 03:37 PM
Danny Granger.

Kutchie03
08-21-2010, 03:37 PM
I'm going with Gerald Wallace

x1 he's defensive minded and grabs hella boards.. its not all about scoring

Niro
08-21-2010, 03:43 PM
I'm going with Gerald Wallace

me too

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 03:44 PM
Where is iguodala!!!!!!!!???????

you my friend are a homer did you watch the playoffs. anyone who can guard kobe and lebron in the same playoffs i commend. paul pierce is the truth. i give him a standing ovation. PSD shocks me with these votes. how can you put granger ahead of pierce stats arent everything any GM would drool over the chance to get pierce. hes the leader even among possibly 4 other hall of famers (kg, shaq, allen and pending on how his career pans out rondo). how can you put an unproven granger over this guy?

BosoxPapi61
08-21-2010, 03:48 PM
Gerald Wallace, he is on my mock offseason team

tromo9
08-21-2010, 03:54 PM
wheres iggy???

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 04:02 PM
While Iggy in no way is in the discussion for #4, he should be on this pole. Just try and make sure he is on the next one

Iodine
08-21-2010, 04:10 PM
this is where the debate starts peeps. Its obviously between Granger, Pierce, and Wallace.
I am going with Wallace. And the reason is, he beat them both pretty easily in win shares, is a dominant rebounder, and still manages to score with good efficiency. Careful using per game numbers, Wallace plays a TON MORE than Pierce. Granger missed 20 games or so last year, but I think he may pass Wallace's play from last year this upcoming season. But until proven otherwise for me, its Wallace. He is so versatile on both ends.

Here is the player comparison, broken down

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=piercpa01&y1=2010&p2=wallage01&y2=2010&p3=grangda01&y3=2010

Not to mention he was a monster on P&R D and isolation D and gave up only 10 and ones all year (totally meaningingless but still awesome)

Rivera
08-21-2010, 04:22 PM
i had 2 go wit granger

still1ballin
08-21-2010, 04:24 PM
Pierce

ManRam
08-21-2010, 04:26 PM
I voted for Pierce. But as some know, I have a man crush on him.

cmellofan15
08-21-2010, 04:28 PM
Danny Granger is in close 2nd yet nobody has made a case for him.

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 04:38 PM
Danny Granger is in close 2nd yet nobody has made a case for him.

because 50% of the people here think that stats are everything. when in actualality they dont measure how great you are. they can actually measure how bad your teams is or how weak your division is. STATS ARENT EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!

masalex1205
08-21-2010, 04:39 PM
Gerald Wallace

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 04:43 PM
because 50% of the people here think that stats are everything. when in actualality they dont measure how great you are. they can actually measure how bad your teams is or how weak your division is. STATS ARENT EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!

do you even understand how to look at them? You continue to say this, but in reality, it helps us seperate players. The old stats, sure, you are right. But advanced stats don't care what team you play for, or how much help you have. They are real numbers dude.
Don't knock something you don't understand how to look at.

avrpatsfan
08-21-2010, 04:45 PM
Granger.

ALL_i-Do_is-Win
08-21-2010, 04:49 PM
i am going with granger just 2 season he was ready to break into elite category
he was 3rd in fantasy league for 8 categories just to season ago
he is a very good defender
and he can gets his points from anywhere on the floor with a great 3 point shot and drive

John Walls Era
08-21-2010, 04:54 PM
Danny Granger is the 4th best SF in the league? Debatable 5th but Pierce should win this.

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 04:55 PM
are you crazy i look at everything when it comes to stats PER, game shares, all of that stuff. but that has nothing to do with leadership, man to man defense, mentoring the young players tell me what stats show that please. being a besketball player has nothing to do with whats on paper unless all of those things are on the same level. if stats were everything guys like tmac and shaq would easily have jobs and never switch teams and kevin ollie and eric snow wouldnt have jobs as long as they did.

Patrick Swayze
08-21-2010, 04:57 PM
Rudy Gay should be at least ahead of Wallace.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 04:58 PM
i am going with granger just 2 season he was ready to break into elite category
he was 3rd in fantasy league for 8 categories just to season ago
he is a very good defender
and he can gets his points from anywhere on the floor with a great 3 point shot and drive

Granger shoots 75% of his attempts outside on the perimeter.
Pierce shoots 67% of his
Wallace only 42% of his

so of the three, Granger is the one who least slashes or drives actually. He also draws way less fouls than either.

Granger is mostly a shooter. A good one, no doubt.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 04:59 PM
Rudy Gay should be at least ahead of Wallace.

no f'in way Rudy Gay is ahead of Wallace. None.

Antipod
08-21-2010, 05:05 PM
I voted for Gay :D

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 05:10 PM
no f'in way Rudy Gay is ahead of Wallace. None.

i agree

Iodine
08-21-2010, 05:13 PM
are you crazy i look at everything when it comes to stats PER, game shares, all of that stuff. but that has nothing to do with leadership, man to man defense

There is a stats (actually several) for that

ALL_i-Do_is-Win
08-21-2010, 05:17 PM
Granger shoots 75% of his attempts outside on the perimeter.
Pierce shoots 67% of his
Wallace only 42% of his

so of the three, Granger is the one who least slashes or drives actually. He also draws way less fouls than either.

Granger is mostly a shooter. A good one, no doubt.

yeah your right about that
that was last season though when he knew his team has no chance @ playoffs
in my mind if he is in a better team that can compete he can get to the rim very easy better then pierce
wallace has a very good drive so they might be equal mainly because he is not a shooter that is how he gets his points

Illinirob83
08-21-2010, 05:17 PM
Honestly, how can anyone say danny granger is better than Paul Pierce? This board is supposedly smart. Do any of you guys even watch Granger? He is a chucker on a team full of bums. He doesn't make anyone better and when you play them i don't even fear him. he will 'get his' and that will be just fine with him. I am not that impressed, def can't be ahead of PP for crying out loud.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 05:19 PM
Honestly, how can anyone say danny granger is better than Paul Pierce? This board is supposedly smart. Do any of you guys even watch Granger? He is a chucker on a team full of bums. He doesn't make anyone better and when you play them i don't even fear him. he will 'get his' and that will be just fine with him. I am not that impressed, def can't be ahead of PP for crying out loud.

well, his roster was lacking in talent big time. With the addition of Collision, expect Grangers numbers to get even better. He also was hurt much of last year. He is a gifted scorer, especially from the perimeter. I think you are underrating Granger.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 05:24 PM
wow, this one could go on a while haha

zambo4president
08-21-2010, 05:28 PM
I broke the tie for Granger!

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 05:28 PM
There is a stats (actually several) for that

show me the stat that shows how good of a defender pierce, artest, kobe are? you can say steals and other BS but no stat shows you aside from actually watching.

The Prodigy
08-21-2010, 05:29 PM
I think that if it ends up too close, like 3-4 vote difference we should hold another one with just Pierce and Granger to get a better view on who poster's really feel is the number 4 Sf in the league.

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 05:32 PM
if granger wins this just shows how uch people just look at paper and not actually games. because if you simply watched the playoffs you would see how valuable pierce was to the celtics. because if hes not playing the cavs are in the finals this season. its just that simple and NO other player can slow lebron down as much as pierce did that series. they played great team d but REALLY watch that series and you'll see how flustered he really made lebron. and who can shut down kobe the way he did in game 7 especially when everyone was expecting kobe to have a breakout game?

DCSportsIsPain
08-21-2010, 05:44 PM
What separates the stats as much as anything is the Usage Percentage. If Wallace had the ball as often as Granger and Pierce do he would have higher raw numbers. Wallace's usage is almost 9% less than Granger's and almost 4% less than Pierce's. He does more on fewer touches. But that doesn't seem to be relevant in the voting.

Iodine
08-21-2010, 05:50 PM
show me the stat that shows how good of a defender pierce, artest, kobe are? you can say steals and other BS but no stat shows you aside from actually watching.

Defensive PPP
iso PPP
Post PPP
oponent per average
Opponent fg%
%sf
Need more?

nuggetsyankees
08-21-2010, 05:52 PM
all tied up

nuggetsyankees
08-21-2010, 05:53 PM
pierce isn't the same player as he was...granger has really improved and IMO Pierce has hit the wall

Corey
08-21-2010, 05:58 PM
Pierce:
18 points on 12 attempts per game
47% from the field, 42% from deep


Granger:
24 points on 18 attempts per game
43% from the field, 36% from deep


Rebounds, Turnovers, Assists, FT% are a wash. Pierce is the much better defender. Pierce's eFG% is 4 points higher, and TS% is 5 points higher.

He's more efficient on offense, and better on defense.

The gap is getting closer, but Pierce is still better.

Corey
08-21-2010, 05:59 PM
pierce isn't the same player as he was...granger has really improved and IMO Pierce has hit the wall

Hit the wall? He's shooting some of his best percentages of his career. Look at more than just PPG before you make a statement like that.

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 06:06 PM
Defensive PPP
iso PPP
Post PPP
oponent per average
Opponent fg%
%sf
Need more?

OK YOUR POINT ALL OF THAT SHOWS PIERCE IS BETTER!!! i could never see granger locking down kobe or lebron. he held lebron to 15 points in game 5 with 3 of 14 shooting and kobe bryant to 6 of 24 in game 7 do you see granger doing that if you wanna talk stats i can do that too. and even though he had alot of hard defensive assignments thoughout the playoffs he still still averaged 18.8 on a team with multliple scorers. but those still dont show how good of a defender a person is you guys dont understand that DEFENSE CANT BE MEASURED IN STATS. it can show that they are pretty good but it doesnt show how they get under another players skin. how good they hustle . how good you can recover. how good you can stick with the dribble. you guys prob. never played serious ball to understand that stats dont show that, any true baller will tell you that.

Jewelz0376
08-21-2010, 07:09 PM
I would rather have Pierce right now...I'm still not 100% convinced that Granger isn't one of those players that puts up good numbers on bad teams but would have less success on a good team...Pierce can play lock down d and his clutch...not to mention you know he can come thru in the postseason..

Just look at Team Usa.... Granger has been outplayed by Gay... and you think would with Grangers game being a jump shooter he would shine more than Gay but he hasnt...

Sadds The Gr8
08-21-2010, 07:11 PM
very close between Granger and pierce. I chose Granger but it can go either way.

bholly
08-21-2010, 07:32 PM
While Iggy in no way is in the discussion for #4, he should be on this pole. Just try and make sure he is on the next one

This. I don't think I would've voted for him, but to go from 6th overall last year to not in the top 13 options this year seems like a pretty big oversight.

Avenged
08-21-2010, 07:44 PM
It's not even like Granger is clearly the better player here.

For me, I would have thought it would have came down to Pierce vs. Wallace.

I'm shocked Granger is actually leading this poll.

Both Pierce and Granger have similar stats throughout, Granger does score more points +6 but in all honesty, he's the clear number 1 guy in Indiana. Pierce shoots a higher 3pt% and fg% while playing more games but playing less minutes.

I gave the nod to Pierce to due him being a proven winner, a champion, and having the intangibles Granger doesn't possess.

bostncelts34
08-21-2010, 07:51 PM
Pierce. Not being a homer, but not counting potential or anything else like the poll says.Id take Pierce. IMO you have to look at the fact that grangers numbers are a little bit inflated due to the fact ehs the only real scoring option in INDY. Meanwhile, Pierce is part of a team with multiple scoring options and still puts up decent numbers.

The biggest reason you gotta go with pierce is he has won a championship as a leader of the team, and a finals MVP. Granger is the obvious 5 sf though

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 07:52 PM
It's not even like Granger is clearly the better player here.

For me, I would have thought it would have came down to Pierce vs. Wallace.

I'm shocked Granger is actually leading this poll.

Both Pierce and Granger have similar stats throughout, Granger does score more points +6 but in all honesty, he's the clear number 1 guy in Indiana. Pierce shoots a higher 3pt% and fg% while playing more games but playing less minutes.

I gave the nod to Pierce to due him being a proven winner, a champion, and having the intangibles Granger doesn't possess.

:clap: but noone is giving a reason why they vote for granger this is why i dont like this poll thing because people just vote off of who thy like and have no facts or reasoning these polls remind me of the all star game its just a popularity contest im im surprised a.i. wasnt a top sg. might as well put tmac on this list.

Iodine
08-21-2010, 07:55 PM
It's not even like Granger is clearly the better player here.

For me, I would have thought it would have came down to Pierce vs. Wallace.

I agree, however i took wallace because of his defense (top 20 in iso ppp and destroys the p&r) toughness, and how well he plays his role. The fact he reboubds the hell out of the ball and a great finisher take the cake. I like Pierce two, but wallace brings more things to the table imo

magichatnumber9
08-21-2010, 08:03 PM
Paul Pierce

dolfan720
08-21-2010, 08:07 PM
Danny Granger

Kakaroach
08-21-2010, 08:31 PM
My vote goes to Pierce. Finals MVP, got a ring and has been successful in the playoffs the past few years. Granger still has a lot to prove, but he is for sure next.

krest213
08-21-2010, 08:38 PM
Paul Pierce nuff said.
and for the first time u guys getting the SF right

beasted86
08-21-2010, 08:42 PM
I would have given this to Pierce if he showed up in the Finals.

JermanJaysFan
08-21-2010, 08:43 PM
I surprised myself by taking Wallace. I guess I picked him because he is so versatile and multi talented.

Warriors0
08-21-2010, 08:49 PM
Aw u didnt put my favorite player Andre iguodala on topic i put granger because i think he has a better offensive game but pierce could beat him with his accolades and improving 3 pt shot

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 08:53 PM
I would have given this to Pierce if he showed up in the Finals.

how did he not show up? he defended the 2 best players in the league REALLY good? you while still averaging 18.8 throuout the playoffs? no other sf in the league can do that pierce is sooooo underrated

xbrackattackx
08-21-2010, 08:53 PM
Granger.

SupeUnagi
08-21-2010, 08:56 PM
granger as of right now
2 years ago? def pierce

i guess josh smith will be listed as PF, because he would have been my choice at #4

JordansBulls
08-21-2010, 09:01 PM
How is Granger better than Pierce? He can't even make the playoffs.

beasted86
08-21-2010, 09:01 PM
how did he not show up? he defended the 2 best players in the league REALLY good? you while still averaging 18.8 throuout the playoffs? no other sf in the league can do that pierce is sooooo underrated

18 a game is good and all, just not for Paul Pierce on the biggest stage.

He played like Paul Pierce, not "The Truth".

beasted86
08-21-2010, 09:02 PM
How is Granger better than Pierce? He can't even make the playoffs.

Do you really think if he & Pierce swapped places, Pierce would get them into the playoffs?

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 09:05 PM
he held kobe down. kobe wasnt the same kobe. i mean normally i would expect him to carry the offensive load but you cant expect him to defend kobe and still be super productive on the other end. i mean people arent understanding he is the reason it went to seven games. and your comparing a finals mvp to someone who hasnt even made the playoffs aside from his rookie year wherew he averaged 8.2 ppg this to me is just like the all star games. its kinda aggrevating to see the lack of respect you guys really have for the better player like monta over ray was just as bad. THE WARRIORS OFFERED MONTA FOR RAY AND GOT TURNED DOWN!!!!!!!!! its w.e. though the more popular player i guess will always prevail in these votes so it is what it is no point on arguing the inevitable.

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 09:11 PM
Do you really think if he & Pierce swapped places, Pierce would get them into the playoffs?

no he wouldnt but he would make them a better team i guarentee it. there a players whos pressence just make the team better. like kobe, lebron, pierce, kg, shaq, billups...you get where im going with this. but granger isnt on that level. pierce is thats why he remained captain among hall of famers. kg was offered the cocaptain role but said no bc paul pierce knows how to handle it do you think granger could do that?

Swashcuff
08-21-2010, 09:20 PM
Danny Granger! On to #5

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 09:21 PM
no he wouldnt but he would make them a better team i guarentee it. there a players whos pressence just make the team better. like kobe, lebron, pierce, kg, shaq, billups...you get where im going with this. but granger isnt on that level. pierce is thats why he remained captain among hall of famers. kg was offered the cocaptain role but said no bc paul pierce knows how to handle it do you think granger could do that?

during Pierce's prime, when he had no help, the C's missed the playoffs here and there. Sooooooooo, not sure how you can guarantee anything.
A prime Pierce led Boston to 33 wins in a healthy 05-06' campaign. He also "led" them to the playoffs a few times with mid to low 40's in wins (in the east at the time, if you won 2 in a row, you were probably a playoff team).
Not to take anything away from Pierce. For a good period of time, he was easily a top 3 SF for a number of years, and a gifted offensive player.
But making the playoffs requires at least minimal help. Granger didn't have a whole lot. Pierce has gotten a lot of credit, which was due, since 2008. But his individual game has declined for 3 straight years since the dream season of 2008

jim51990
08-21-2010, 09:22 PM
not being a homer but granger is not close to as good as the truth

JordansBulls
08-21-2010, 09:23 PM
Do you really think if he & Pierce swapped places, Pierce would get them into the playoffs?

Even if that were true, you can't say he is better based off of hypotheticals. He has to show he is the better player first. What has he proven?

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 09:24 PM
again, for many, these comparisons become career achievement awards, instead of looking who is the better player now. Not saying Pierce isn't, but at least make a valid argument without throwing in team success and made up theories, like Pierce is a lockdown defender. Wallace takes a complete dump on anyone at the SF position in this thread defensively

Lord Leoshes
08-21-2010, 09:37 PM
A little bit of a homer pick but i have to go with Caron Butler.

Chi-Town Sports
08-21-2010, 09:37 PM
Granger

97NYer
08-21-2010, 09:40 PM
Right now, this season, if Granger were on the Celtics and Pierce on the Pacers, the Celtics would improve.

Avenged
08-21-2010, 09:45 PM
again, for many, these comparisons become career achievement awards, instead of looking who is the better player now. Not saying Pierce isn't, but at least make a valid argument without throwing in team success and made up theories, like Pierce is a lockdown defender. Wallace takes a complete dump on anyone at the SF position in this thread defensively

I sort of agree, but what's wrong with adding team success? The better your team is, the higher the player ranks. League MVP's for example, no bottom dwelling team ever wins the award, only the best players on the best teams win it.

Same can be said here. Team success are a major part of basketball and when there are 2 players who are close, it can be the deciding factor.

Who would you take, a player who has slightly better ppg being the #1 option on a bad team, or a player who has the similar stats but is on a championship while not being the clear cut #1 option? Keep in mind, they're both similar among other stats as well..

I mean, when it's close, myself and a lot of people look at team success and who's more proven. Which is why I can't understand how Granger is leading this thing.

It really should have been Pierce and Wallace battling out.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 09:52 PM
I sort of agree, but what's wrong with adding team success? The better your team is, the higher the player ranks. League MVP's for example, no bottom dwelling team ever wins the award, only the best players on the best teams win it.

Same can be said here. Team success are a major part of basketball and when there are 2 players who are close, it can be the deciding factor.

Who would you take, a player who has slightly better ppg being the #1 option on a bad team, or a player who has the similar stats but is on a championship while not being the clear cut #1 option? Keep in mind, they're both similar among other stats as well..

I mean, when it's close, myself and a lot of people look at team success and who's more proven. Which is why I can't understand how Granger is leading this thing.

It really should have been Pierce and Wallace battling out.

I NEVER use per game stats first off. And you have got to look at rosters, sure. But you can't penalize a player for poor managment, or a lacking roster. That just isn't how you evaluate. Ever. Sure, if you get two players, who have similar roster support, and you are having problems evaluating, then by all means, use the success rate. But Pierce plays on a top 3 defensive team, with weapons everywhere. Granger plays with crap, or did.

Team success can only be a deciding factor when the rosters equalize each other. And in the case of Wallace/Pierce/Granger, nothing could be farther from the truth

sofargone
08-21-2010, 09:53 PM
This is mad close yall, can't wait to see who wins.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 09:54 PM
btw Avenged, I picked Wallace. I am simply playing the devil's advocate here. I have stuck up for all three on this thread :)

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 09:58 PM
during Pierce's prime, when he had no help, the C's missed the playoffs here and there. Sooooooooo, not sure how you can guarantee anything.
A prime Pierce led Boston to 33 wins in a healthy 05-06' campaign. He also "led" them to the playoffs a few times with mid to low 40's in wins (in the east at the time, if you won 2 in a row, you were probably a playoff team).
Not to take anything away from Pierce. For a good period of time, he was easily a top 3 SF for a number of years, and a gifted offensive player.
But making the playoffs requires at least minimal help. Granger didn't have a whole lot. Pierce has gotten a lot of credit, which was due, since 2008. But his individual game has declined for 3 straight years since the dream season of 2008

oic statman so your saying in 05-06 the same season Pierce had the highest points-per-shot average among the top 30 scorers in the league, indicating that he is an efficient and consistent player...is that the season your talking about?

SupeUnagi
08-21-2010, 09:59 PM
How is Granger better than Pierce? He can't even make the playoffs.

2005-2007 the celtics had what the pacers have now, and possibly better


unfair comparison

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 10:03 PM
oic statman so your saying in 05-06 the same season Pierce had the highest points-per-shot average among the top 30 scorers in the league, indicating that he is an efficient and consistent player...is that the season your talking about?

its the year I listed. And as I said, Pierce was arguably the best pure scorer in the NBA for 3-4 years in the mid 2000's.
Are you attempting to set me up for something, which I judge by your response?

heattiltheend94
08-21-2010, 10:06 PM
This will be one of the closest yet.

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 10:07 PM
and the same season he dropped 30 points 8 straight games, and 13 out of 14 games? while averaging 26.8...on a team with the lineup of west/davis/pierce/la fretz/and a young perkins. is that the season your talking about?

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 10:08 PM
and the same season he dropped 30 points 8 straight games, and 13 out of 14 games? while averaging 26.8...on a team with the lineup of west/davis/pierce/la fretz/and a young perkins. is that the season your talking about?

hahaha. Yes, that IS the season I am talking about. Look, I am about to run to a friends house and kick it for a while, but lay out whatever you are attempting to set my up for, and I will reply back lata.

Hawk

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 10:09 PM
yea he proved that he can do the same thing granger can do just better...but the celtics dont need that from him now they need him to be the all around player that he has been. granger hasnt proven that he can make teams a winner yet pierce has. didnt he say not potential but what they have done and pierce has done farrrrrrrrrrrrrr more than granger

Purch
08-21-2010, 11:17 PM
Wtf why is Ariza here but not Iggy?

Storch
08-21-2010, 11:33 PM
I'll go with the guy that led the Celtics to beat my Lakers, Paul Pierce.

29$JerZ
08-21-2010, 11:56 PM
I'd say Crash

masalex1205
08-21-2010, 11:57 PM
G-force

masalex1205
08-21-2010, 11:58 PM
Wtf why is Ariza here but not Iggy?

hes prob considered a SG

Johann
08-22-2010, 12:02 AM
wheres iguodala??

Rivera
08-22-2010, 12:03 AM
hes prob considered a SG

honestly he wasnt on the list for the SG's because i think he woulda got enough votes to get in the top 10

xM1GSx
08-22-2010, 12:03 AM
the truth

Hawkeye15
08-22-2010, 01:24 AM
yea he proved that he can do the same thing granger can do just better...but the celtics dont need that from him now they need him to be the all around player that he has been. granger hasnt proven that he can make teams a winner yet pierce has. didnt he say not potential but what they have done and pierce has done farrrrrrrrrrrrrr more than granger

no, he USED to do the things Granger can do. And Pierce, as great as his career has been, has had an individual fall off of skill. Its not noticeable to the average fan, unless you watched him over the last 11 years with repetition. Pierce is a money player, but the C's have a system that provides them with cover over thier aging stars. Wallace is beyond the conversation better on defense. I will defend Granger outright, but I won't argue him against Pierce. No point

REALLYYYYY?
08-22-2010, 01:34 AM
crap. i missed the polls for numbers 2 & 3. those threads must have had some pretty intense discussions.

LUOL DENG!!!!!!!!!!!!

:love:

REALLYYYYY?
08-22-2010, 01:36 AM
wheres iguodala??

lol. iguodalala was there for #1 but now he is not for #4. nifty neato.

:9/11:

D-Will4Prez
08-22-2010, 01:54 AM
holy **** you have no idea how hard this was.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-22-2010, 02:00 AM
crap. i missed the polls for numbers 2 & 3. those threads must have had some pretty intense discussions.

LUOL DENG!!!!!!!!!!!!

:love:

Not really.

2nd poll was a runaway and so was 3rd poll.

It actually lasted like 3 hours each. Maybe less for the 3rd one.

LakersIn5
08-22-2010, 03:55 AM
gigigigigigigigigiGRANGER!

Swashcuff
08-22-2010, 04:01 AM
Really the next poll better have Andre Iguodala he's easily #8.

J-Relo
08-22-2010, 04:54 AM
I would take Granger, Wallace and even Rudy Gay over Pierce. Might even consider Iguodala.

Evolution23
08-22-2010, 05:01 AM
Geral Wallace plays both sides of the ball so its Wallace

bbcmillionaire
08-22-2010, 05:18 AM
Granger or peirce either one is acceptable

Swashcuff
08-22-2010, 05:20 AM
Geral Wallace plays both sides of the ball so its Wallace

Granger and Pierce does as well. His D is certainly better than theirs' but they are both better scorers than he can ever dream to be. So that reason alone is not good enough.

icej
08-22-2010, 06:27 AM
I always believe that stopping people to score are always harder than making one. And it is aways a treat to see both quality in a player so I give my vote to Gerald Wallace for the 4th best.

icej
08-22-2010, 06:34 AM
Granger and Pierce does as well. His D is certainly better than theirs' but they are both better scorers than he can ever dream to be. So that reason alone is not good enough.

Every player does try to play both ends or so does the majority, but only a handful can play both ends above average.

Wallace does.

SugeKnight
08-22-2010, 06:46 AM
Granger

icej
08-22-2010, 06:52 AM
Pierce certainly has a good claim, and if this was asked several pounds ago - this would easily go to him.

Granger I'm not sure though even at pierce's age he can still defend and score better than danny.

Antipod
08-22-2010, 06:53 AM
Wow....didn`t watch many Indiana games last season, Granger must be a hell`o`va player... Too bad his stats don`t equal more wins for his team

icej
08-22-2010, 06:56 AM
Wow....didn`t watch many Indiana games last season, Granger must be a hell`o`va player... Too bad his stats don`t equal more wins for his team

He's good, but not this good.

SugeKnight
08-22-2010, 07:00 AM
Hes pretty good. Hustles on D and makes buckets

icej
08-22-2010, 08:28 AM
Their respective team's success is another good measure of their value as a star player/leader.

Granger is still a bust, Pierce and Wallace has good claims, I just went for wallace coz he is now better defender than Pierce and with lesser help alongside him, Pierce is better offensively though, but with much greater help.

Purch
08-22-2010, 08:36 AM
How is Granger better then Wallace?

Wallace is by far the better defender and rebounder and on offense he isn't bad either.

And he lacks teh chuck

icej
08-22-2010, 08:38 AM
How is Granger better then Wallace?

Wallace is by far the better defender and rebounder and on offense he isn't bad either.

And he lacks teh chuck

Precisely my point.

Purch
08-22-2010, 08:40 AM
I mean PsD is by far the only forum I've seen that overrates Granger this much.

Swashcuff
08-22-2010, 08:55 AM
Every player does try to play both ends or so does the majority, but only a handful can play both ends above average.

Wallace does.

dude have you seen Pierce and especially Granger play D. They are both above average. Now Wallace is light years ahead of them but that doesn't mean that their D should be discredited. Your argument of every player tries...... Meh.

cmellofan15
08-22-2010, 09:10 AM
:laugh2:

and Granger wins the argument between Pierce and Wallace.

icej
08-22-2010, 09:18 AM
dude have you seen Pierce and especially Granger play D. They are both above average. Now Wallace is light years ahead of them but that doesn't mean that their D should be discredited. Your argument of every player tries...... Meh.

dude you just proved my point, this thread is dedicated to find out who among these players are worth to be called 4th best in their position, i merely state my opinion with my explanation on why I think so.

I never discredit pierce's or granger's defense, don't be too sensitive dude. I just chose my 4th player and gave my explanation why I think so.

And so should you.

Iodine
08-22-2010, 09:23 AM
:laugh2:

and Granger wins the argument between Pierce and Wallace.

Monta and OJ Mayo baby!

Kutchie03
08-22-2010, 09:33 AM
you my friend are a homer did you watch the playoffs. anyone who can guard kobe and lebron in the same playoffs i commend. paul pierce is the truth. i give him a standing ovation. PSD shocks me with these votes. how can you put granger ahead of pierce stats arent everything any GM would drool over the chance to get pierce. hes the leader even among possibly 4 other hall of famers (kg, shaq, allen and pending on how his career pans out rondo). how can you put an unproven granger over this guy?

are you kidding me? considering Rondo a possible HOF inductee? at this point I don't even consider cp3 or d will future hall of famers.. and youre putting rondo in the discussion? think of all the great players that havent gotten in, they only let in 5-10 players a year.

REALLYYYYY?
08-22-2010, 09:37 AM
Who the heck are these Granger and Wallace people?

Purch
08-22-2010, 09:51 AM
10 Rebounds for an SF


That is all.

Slimsim
08-22-2010, 09:52 AM
dam granger and pierce are dead even. I voted Pierce

black1605
08-22-2010, 10:00 AM
This is why Granger is better than Wallace:

He is the best defensive small forward in the league.

He is number fourteen in the entire league in rebounds per game as a small forward.

He shoots a better percentage from the three, and overall.

He is number six in the league in win shares.

Oh wait...

Khalifa21
08-22-2010, 10:04 AM
Damn, this is a close one.

Swashcuff
08-22-2010, 10:21 AM
it looks like Pierce is going to take this in a photo finish. His play in the play-offs last season is probably the biggest reason for that.

alencp3
08-22-2010, 10:41 AM
Wallace is more importnant to his team than Granger and Pierce are to theirs

Hawkeye15
08-22-2010, 10:43 AM
Wallace is more importnant to his team than Granger and Pierce are to theirs

eh, tough to make that claim, when Pierce has been intergral to a championship, and deep runs into the playoffs over the past three years.
But yes, going by what they statistically produce for the win column, Wallace was more valuable than either last year.

Avenged
08-22-2010, 10:46 AM
PSD is getting the SF list correct so far.

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Melo
4. Pierce :pray:

J-Relo
08-22-2010, 10:50 AM
no way Pierce is still top 4

PapelbonLester
08-22-2010, 10:52 AM
Igoudala is a legit answer too. Wheres his name at??? It goes

Lebron
Durant
Melo
Pierce
Igoudala
Granger
Gay

Hawkeye15
08-22-2010, 10:54 AM
Igoudala is a legit answer too. Wheres his name at??? It goes

Lebron
Durant
Melo
Pierce
Igoudala
Granger
Gay

Iggy and Gay are below LeBron, Durant, Melo, Wallace, Pierce, and Granger dude. In fact, Gay is even a bit further down the list at this point

Mane
08-22-2010, 10:54 AM
Granger is a better player than Pierce. And so is Wallace.

Swashcuff
08-22-2010, 10:56 AM
Igoudala is a legit answer too. Wheres his name at??? It goes

Lebron
Durant
Melo
Pierce
Igoudala
Granger
Gay

I'm a sixer fan and I am telling you that he is NOT better than Granger nor Wallace. Your list is so wrong.

VinceCarter
08-22-2010, 11:11 AM
Paul Pierce is quite overrated right now. Watching him play is not too impressive. I think he has declined quite a bit in the past year or two. I think taking Granger and Wallace before Pierce would be insane.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger?playerId=662

Danny Granger PER 08-09: 21.88 09-10: 19.85
Paul Pierce PER 08-09: 17.74 09-10: 18.24
Gerald Wallce PER 08-09: 18.64 09-10: 18.39

I'm taking definitely taking Granger here. Then Pierce or Wallace is debatle.

VinceCarter
08-22-2010, 11:12 AM
Granger is a better player than Pierce. And so is Wallace.

:nod::clap:

Swashcuff
08-22-2010, 11:16 AM
Paul Pierce is quite overrated right now. Watching him play is not too impressive. I think he has declined quite a bit in the past year or two. I think taking Granger and Wallace before Pierce would be insane.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger?playerId=662

Danny Granger PER 08-09: 21.88 09-10: 19.85
Paul Pierce PER 08-09: 17.74 09-10: 18.24
Gerald Wallce PER 08-09: 18.64 09-10: 18.39

I'm taking definitely taking Granger here. Then Pierce or Wallace is debatle.

thing is the debate here is not about 08-09 its for 09-10

though Danny's PER was also higher than both of their's last season though he had a horrible start to the season and really took some time to get his shot going after returning from injury.

VinceCarter
08-22-2010, 11:23 AM
thing is the debate here is not about 08-09 its for 09-10

though Danny's PER was also higher than both of their's last season though he had a horrible start to the season and really took some time to get his shot going after returning from injury.

I think it should be Danny Granger, Gerald Wallace, then Paul Pierce. They're all really close but I think Granger is obviously better than the 3 and Wallace carries his team more than Pierce.

EaglePride615
08-22-2010, 12:39 PM
I think it should be Danny Granger, Gerald Wallace, then Paul Pierce. They're all really close but I think Granger is obviously better than the 3 and Wallace carries his team more than Pierce.

yeah because hes their go to guy to score on offense right?

tredigs
08-22-2010, 12:50 PM
I just woke up after a buddies bachelor party and my head is throbbing too hard for a complete breakdown, but I'd take Granger. He's a complete player, and there could have actually been a fun debate for him over Melo (I'd still take Melo, but it is actually a debate), but there are cases for both Wallace and Pierce.

No surprise that the voting is this close. It's too bad that Granger is spending his prime on such a sub-par Indiana squad, the guy deserves a bigger spotlight. It's like if Kobe came into the league with the '05 Lakers (and they didn't have the franchise to draw in big names), but never left. Whole different legacy.

Wade>You
08-22-2010, 12:53 PM
I'm going with Gerald WallaceFo realz, dude avg'd double digit rebounds.

Reyes6
08-22-2010, 12:53 PM
I went with Granger, was really only between him, Pierce, and Wallace. Pierce is a solid player who always shows up when needed, but Granger is reaching his prime and is better right now.

stealth33
08-22-2010, 01:00 PM
I went with Granger, but it's biased since he's my favorite player.

Pierce is in decline and I feel like Wallace really benefits from the other pieces around him in Charlotte...although Wallace is a VERY complete player, I don't look at him as a guy who carries a team. Granger has really been all alone in his efforts in Indy. Granted he looks like a volume shooter, but that is a role he's forced in to. He struggled last year, and while this should be a VERY close vote for 4th... I think this year he's going to clearly be the 4th best SF.

Brooklyn Mets
08-22-2010, 01:05 PM
Pierce slightly over Granger

VinceCarter
08-22-2010, 01:17 PM
Damn if Danny Granger is going to be underrated for being on a poor team I really am scared to see people vote on the best centers in the league (underrating Brook Lopez :ohno:).

Avenged
08-22-2010, 01:18 PM
Brook Lopez? :confused:

:)

Gators123
08-22-2010, 01:19 PM
Damn if Danny Granger is going to be underrated for being on a poor team I really am scared to see people vote on the best centers in the league (underrating Brook Lopez :ohno:).

I don't think people underrate Lopez.

cubbybear2290
08-22-2010, 01:26 PM
Pierce in my eyes. d

dhopisthename
08-22-2010, 01:27 PM
wow this is super close the first one I have seen for a while that every vote actually counted

Gators123
08-22-2010, 01:31 PM
I picked Granger, but like others have said, its really close.

Slimsim
08-22-2010, 01:38 PM
this is a very interesting poll

Avenged
08-22-2010, 01:44 PM
Are there really 265+ NBA fans in the NBA forum?

If there are, where have you all been hiding?

VinceCarter
08-22-2010, 01:47 PM
Are there really 265+ NBA fans in the NBA forum?

If there are, where have you all been hiding?

Well there is one NBA poster that makes some really "dull" threads. ;)

knickfan33
08-22-2010, 02:08 PM
4. Danillo Gallinari how the hell do you have guys like caron butler in the vote for number 4 sf and not have gallo

xbrackattackx
08-22-2010, 02:29 PM
4. Danillo Gallinari how the hell do you have guys like caron butler in the vote for number 4 sf and not have gallo

Example of people who overate their players.

Mile High Champ
08-22-2010, 02:32 PM
1 min left..

Hawkeye15
08-22-2010, 02:40 PM
done