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Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 02:27 PM
How do you personally evaluate player? We have constant debates, rankings, etc. Not everyone has the time, money, or both, to get the NBA package. What amount of time to you spend, as a fan, watching the game? How much time do you spend looking up stats?
Basically, what is the formula you use, to evaluate a player?

Thoughts?

DCSportsIsPain
08-21-2010, 02:32 PM
Advanced offensive stats, Advanced defensive stats, simple stats, game film, intangibles.

In that order ... the reverse is deceiving.

lakers4sho
08-21-2010, 02:37 PM
efficiency, win shares, advanced shooting percentage [ eFG and TS ], +/-, accolades, watching the actual games

The list is not exhaustive though.

Avenged
08-21-2010, 02:39 PM
Obviously we can't all watch every player/game so we have to go by the highlights, stats, PER, win shares, and stuff of that sort.

Personally, I hate looking up stats. Takes up too much of my time especially when trying to compare 2 players. When it's necessary, I do it.

Hellcrooner
08-21-2010, 02:40 PM
I watch the game.
Focus on the player i want to "scout"

Get my eyes on him the whole time ( if the broadacasting allows me) and take a good lok at waht the player does WHEN HE DOES NOT HAVE THE BALL, where doe she position in defense, how does he fare in the ofnsive end to try to put himselg in positon to receive the ball or to facilitate his teamates driving in.

Notice if he takes ill advised shots or if he searches for the best option.
Notice if he handles too much or too few.

Etc etc.

I dont rely on stats that much because big stats with No team Play and il advised shots does reflect as points in stat sheet but its anegative in my eye.

For example.

Three players in the counter attack two iof them compeltely open while the one with the ball he has one or two dudes in him teh dude that has teh ball drives in and DUNK.
It will show up in the highlits of the game , fans wil go crazy , media will hype the play.
In my eyes it was NOT a smart play.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 02:40 PM
Obviously we can't all watch every player/game so we have to go by the highlights, stats, PER, win shares, and stuff of that sort.

Personally, I hate looking up stats. Takes up too much of my time especially when trying to compare 2 players. When it's necessary, I do it.

just throw them in the player comparison tab, and you don't have to flip back and forth.

abe_froman
08-21-2010, 02:55 PM
stats mostly,i dont have the time or desire to watch some thousand games every year.

Rafer17
08-21-2010, 03:02 PM
Media Attention












:laugh::laugh:

PatsSoxKnicks
08-21-2010, 03:03 PM
just throw them in the player comparison tab, and you don't have to flip back and forth.

where'd you find that on basketball reference? And do they have that for hoopsdata and 82games.com too?

Edit:
Found it for bball reference. Does Hoopsdata and 82games.com have it too?

Ovratd1up
08-21-2010, 03:05 PM
See how many hits I get when I search the player's name on yahoo...

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 03:06 PM
where'd you find that on basketball reference? And do they have that for hoopsdata and 82games.com too?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/

use this. you can do up to 4 players here. Play around with all the options for the database, this is also where Chronz got the list of worst players who get a lot of PT

abe_froman
08-21-2010, 03:10 PM
where'd you find that on basketball reference? And do they have that for hoopsdata and 82games.com too?

Edit:
Found it for bball reference. Does Hoopsdata and 82games.com have it too?

hd,kind of.its not the same player comparison type thing that br has,but you can sort through and get rankings

PatsSoxKnicks
08-21-2010, 03:12 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/

use this. you can do up to 4 players here. Play around with all the options for the database, this is also where Chronz got the list of worst players who get a lot of PT

Wow this makes life so much easier lol. Now I just wish they had this for hoopdata and 82games.com

JordansBulls
08-21-2010, 03:43 PM
Accolades, Stats, Winning

PatsSoxKnicks
08-21-2010, 03:50 PM
hd,kind of.its not the same player comparison type thing that br has,but you can sort through and get rankings

Yeah, I know you can view leaders and adjust by mins, position, etc. but I was specifically looking for a player comparison. For example, if I wanted to compare Rudy Fernandez and Wilson Chandler on hoopdata, I could sort by swingmen, games, mins played but I'd also have to deal with seeing a bunch of other players when I'd prefer just seeing the 2 of them.

It is nice to see where they rank in terms of their position though and I like that they have that, I just wish they had a player comparison. Specifically for the shot locations which bball reference doesn't have.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 03:59 PM
Synergy is sweet actually. I just started looking at it, and there is so much detail, its awesome. Player comparisons are so easy

Iodine
08-21-2010, 04:04 PM
Advanced metrics/game film/context of position, skillset, era, ect

Iodine
08-21-2010, 04:05 PM
Synergy is sweet actually. I just started looking at it, and there is so much detail, its awesome. Player comparisons are so easy

*cought* thank you iodine *cough*

abe_froman
08-21-2010, 04:06 PM
Synergy is sweet actually. I just started looking at it, and there is so much detail, its awesome. Player comparisons are so easy

i miss it :cry:

lakers4sho
08-21-2010, 04:11 PM
Synergy is sweet actually. I just started looking at it, and there is so much detail, its awesome. Player comparisons are so easy

Hook me up? :p

PatsSoxKnicks
08-21-2010, 04:12 PM
Synergy is sweet actually. I just started looking at it, and there is so much detail, its awesome. Player comparisons are so easy

It requires a subscription though doesn't it

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 04:19 PM
It requires a subscription though doesn't it

yeah, but I have a friend...

PatsSoxKnicks
08-21-2010, 04:28 PM
yeah, but I have a friend...

So.....is there a way I can browse around w/o having to pay for it?

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 04:31 PM
So.....is there a way I can browse around w/o having to pay for it?

not that I am aware of man.

knicksfan23
08-21-2010, 04:37 PM
See how many hits I get when I search the player's name on yahoo...

rotfl:)

PatsSoxKnicks
08-21-2010, 05:02 PM
not that I am aware of man.

Ah, to bad.

Hustla23
08-21-2010, 05:41 PM
Efficiency metrics and watching the player play.

Efficiency metrics do a great job of detailing player production but basketball is not yet that sport where you can definitively outline player performance through any which metrics. So there has to be some eyeballing involved, primarily when you're trying to evaluate defensive ability.

As for offense, I look at offensive win shares first to gain a grasp of how much the player has produced offensively. I'll then delve into other areas such as TS%, AST and rebound rates, etc.

_KB24_
08-21-2010, 06:40 PM
I watch the game.
Focus on the player i want to "scout"

Get my eyes on him the whole time ( if the broadacasting allows me) and take a good lok at waht the player does WHEN HE DOES NOT HAVE THE BALL, where doe she position in defense, how does he fare in the ofnsive end to try to put himselg in positon to receive the ball or to facilitate his teamates driving in.

Notice if he takes ill advised shots or if he searches for the best option.
Notice if he handles too much or too few.

Etc etc.

I dont rely on stats that much because big stats with No team Play and il advised shots does reflect as points in stat sheet but its anegative in my eye.

For example.

Three players in the counter attack two iof them compeltely open while the one with the ball he has one or two dudes in him teh dude that has teh ball drives in and DUNK.
It will show up in the highlits of the game , fans wil go crazy , media will hype the play.
In my eyes it was NOT a smart play.

I agree, Pau is a woman on defense. :laugh2:

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 06:51 PM
i goto basketball reference but i watch lika million games during basketball sason i have the pass and just watch games no matter who it is id rather watch games than ANYTHING else they just excite me. stats dont show the full thing imo. im the type thats a see-er to be a believer. i cant just hear that curry, evans, oden, etc have potential i need to see them play i need to evaluate them. my dream job is to be a scout so i just practice im trying to save up to goto school for sports management but hey dreams never come true :/

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 06:52 PM
even if its like the twolves against the nets a game is a game

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 06:56 PM
I agree, Pau is a woman on defense. :laugh2:

you laugh but that is how to properly evaluate a player. what he does without the ball is just as important if not more important than what he does with it look at ray he is using screens tiring his defender and everything. and if you watched a lot of cavs games you saw the complete opposite it looked like they had bricks in their sneakers wait for lebron to make a move or create them a shot. you have to watch the whole game not just the ball

DerekRE_3
08-21-2010, 06:59 PM
All I know is...the whole titles thing is pretty much BS...especially when evaluating a player who was never was on a contending team. Oh and the All Star appearance thing has become somewhat of a joke as well.

Iodine
08-21-2010, 07:06 PM
you laugh but that is how to properly evaluate a player. what he does without the ball is just as important if not more important than what he does with it look at ray he is using screens tiring his defender and everything. and if you watched a lot of cavs games you saw the complete opposite it looked like they had bricks in their sneakers wait for lebron to make a move or create them a shot. you have to watch the whole game not just the ball

He was making fun of crooners typo......

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 07:25 PM
He was making fun of crooners typo......

no i kno but im just saying that he made a good point. thats is how you truly watch a game. for the people that dont know.

xbrackattackx
08-21-2010, 08:55 PM
On Swag.

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 09:18 PM
On Swag.

lmao i can definitely dig it :up:

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 09:30 PM
On Swag.

lmao...i can dig it :up:

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 09:30 PM
srry iddnt mean to post twice i have a bad connection

Hawkeye15
08-21-2010, 09:31 PM
srry iddnt mean to post twice i have a bad connection

post padder!

Shady66
08-21-2010, 09:37 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/

use this. you can do up to 4 players here. Play around with all the options for the database, this is also where Chronz got the list of worst players who get a lot of PT

Thanks a lot for this site, its really great. :clap:

_KB24_
08-21-2010, 10:53 PM
no i kno but im just saying that he made a good point. thats is how you truly watch a game. for the people that dont know.

Take a chill pill, prof. :cool:

Steelers23_06
08-21-2010, 10:58 PM
Thanks a lot for this site, its really great. :clap:

yea i love that site.

Kashmir13579
08-21-2010, 10:58 PM
Media Attention












:laugh::laugh:

lmao, i was waiting for somebody to say this.:D

Hellcrooner
08-22-2010, 12:11 AM
I agree, Pau is a woman on defense. :laugh2:

yeah folcus on the typo and dont care for whats written In the post.


Thats how the CUlt for some players ghater their Monks.

icej
08-22-2010, 09:30 AM
Stats of course.

Antipod
08-22-2010, 09:57 AM
Watching him, stats, playing time, his team winning %, other ppl opinion about him(ppl that watched him more than i did) etc.

DCSportsIsPain
08-22-2010, 10:14 AM
I used to use actual meaningful analytics but then BSPN told me all I had to do was to buy all of Hollinger's books. Imagine never having to watch a game to know who is better than who. Takes all of the pain of actually watching the games right of of it. Thanks, John. And thanks BSPN. Sports would be a lot more complicated if I didn't take everything BSPN says and everything I read as gospel. I love being a mindless shill without any ability to form my own opinion. Now, if everyone will excuse me BSPN is already handing Miami the O'Brien Trophy and I don't want to miss it.

tredigs
08-22-2010, 12:39 PM
I was able to watch and spend more time following basketball in the past year than I ever have in my life, and it was fun. Full NBA package + a fantasy league and spending more time researching advanced stats than was healthy or normal. I guess that's what happens to me when you're in a relationship and it has to go long-term for 6 months because your girlfriend is finishing up undergrad and your job is flexible. Sadly, the party ends in about 8 days with the new job.

edit: But Hoop-Date, the NBA broadband package (Atdhe.net before that), hardwood paroxyism, 82games and basketball reference + a few others have all elevated my game knowledge to a pretty good point. Also, some of the debates/other posters on this site. No shortage of opinions/arguments on here, and that's a good thing. Even if I'm an ******* and can't stand 90% of them.

Hellcrooner
08-22-2010, 12:54 PM
I used to use actual meaningful analytics but then BSPN told me all I had to do was to buy all of Hollinger's books. Imagine never having to watch a game to know who is better than who. Takes all of the pain of actually watching the games right of of it. Thanks, John. And thanks BSPN. Sports would be a lot more complicated if I didn't take everything BSPN says and everything I read as gospel. I love being a mindless shill without any ability to form my own opinion. Now, if everyone will excuse me BSPN is already handing Miami the O'Brien Trophy and I don't want to miss it.

Well at least you get the Official Nerd Graduate title from bspn.
Those who fail get the " i evaluage players out of teh ******** Report from Bull s Simons" Diplioma.
;)

Raoul Duke
08-22-2010, 01:01 PM
I guess I'm old fashioned, because I think the best way to evaluate a player is still just watching them play as much as possible. There isn't any stat that shows how well Kevin Garnett shows on picks or how cool Chauncey is under pressure.

So thats step one. Step two is a brief glance at traditional per game stats and then an attempt to reconcile those numbers with what the advanced metrics tell you.

Brooklyn Mets
08-22-2010, 01:22 PM
stats are the not always the best way to judge a player but when you don't have the time or means to watch every game, sometimes its the only way..

When I'm evaluating a player I like to just watch him the whole game.. see how he moves without the ball, how he read the defense and sets himself up on offense etc.. if he gets beat on certain plays I like to see how he reacts to those types of plays a few games later to see if he knows what he's not good at and tries to get better at it..

Crackadalic
08-23-2010, 03:23 AM
Maybe in baseball stats would have been ideal but in basketball its better buy watching the actually game because stats in basketball truly does not tell the whole story

xbrackattackx
08-23-2010, 09:01 AM
stats are the not always the best way to judge a player but when you don't have the time or means to watch every game, sometimes its the only way..

When I'm evaluating a player I like to just watch him the whole game.. see how he moves without the ball, how he read the defense and sets himself up on offense etc.. if he gets beat on certain plays I like to see how he reacts to those types of plays a few games later to see if he knows what he's not good at and tries to get better at it..

That's the best way, Then go back and look at the stats after you watch the game. I think you get a more complete feeling that way.

Steelers23_06
08-23-2010, 09:09 AM
thats why when people show stats of why someone in particular is better to show why someone is better doesnt make sense imo. it doesnt mean your a better player or a better asset to your team. players like kg, billups, camby, fisher, pierce, andre miller, kobe(even though his stats are great he does sooo much more than any other player in the league to keep his team elite) all bring soooo much more than stats to their team.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2010, 09:12 AM
thats why when people show stats of why someone in particular is better to show why someone is better doesnt make sense imo. it doesnt mean your a better player or a better asset to your team. players like kg, billups, camby, fisher, pierce, andre miller, kobe(even though his stats are great he does sooo much more than any other player in the league to keep his team elite) all bring soooo much more than stats to their team.

no, when they were dominant, their stats showed this as well. In most cases, there is a direct correlation to great players and great stats

Steelers23_06
08-23-2010, 09:24 AM
no when they were in their prime but leadership means more then you could ever imagine. being clutch whether making the good inbound pass, staying in your players face for the clutch shot, clock management, point guard calling the correct play, not fouling, dunking instead of going for the easy layup(reggie says thats the biggest regret of his career and if he could have went back and dunked it he would've...if he does pacers play the lakers and detroit doesnt get that ring) i can tell you were on the sidelines instead of in the game. im not saying stats are useless but with players that i mentioned (and others) in my prior post stats cant even measure of what they bring to a team.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2010, 09:28 AM
no when they were in their prime but leadership means more then you could ever imagine. being clutch whether making the good inbound pass, staying in your players face for the clutch shot, clock management, point guard calling the correct play, not fouling, dunking instead of going for the easy layup(reggie says thats the biggest regret of his career and if he could have went back and dunked it he would've...if he does pacers play the lakers and detroit doesnt get that ring) i can tell you were on the sidelines instead of in the game. im not saying stats are useless but with players that i mentioned (and others) in my prior post stats cant even measure of what they bring to a team.

I understand this. But without being covered up, when a star declines, he is not as good of a player. Intangibles are a great thing, but you need the production to back it up.
Reggie Miller was overrated dude. Great shooter. Nothing else

Steelers23_06
08-23-2010, 09:37 AM
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!! everyone laugh at this guy...reggie miller was just a great shooter. thats my point he was the greatest shooter of all time and sooo much more just listen to how he analyzes he brought soooooo much to his team. why do you think even at 42 the celtics wanted him...they had shooters but he brings sooo much more than that. and so your telling me that those players dont produce. just because they dont produce as much doesnt make them any less valuable because they make up for it in soooo many other ways. just by the reggie miller statement i can tell you watch stats and not games.