PDA

View Full Version : #10 SG In the NBA? (Volume 3 Edition)



Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 09:17 AM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last two years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

SG Rankings DONT FORGET TO VOTE!!

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Manu Ginobili
6) Monta Ellis
7) Ray Allen
8) Stephen Jackson
9) O.J. Mayo
10) Jason Richardson


2009 Off-Season SG Rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Vince Carter
6) Manu Ginobili
7) Ray Allen
8) Kevin Martin
9) Ben Gordon
10) Richard Hamilton

2008 Off-Season SG rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Tracy McGrady
4) Allen Iverson
5) Manu Ginobili
5) Vince Carter
7) Joe Johnson
8) Ray Allen
9) Brandon Roy
10) Kevin Martin

bostncelts34
08-20-2010, 09:20 AM
i picked J-Rich. But you really can go wrong with Martin,Hamilton, carter either

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 09:20 AM
Last SG poll. I will probably start the SF poll miday today.

Last year I gave Lebron top spot, I feel as if it should be done again. While Durant and Melo are up there, I think few would argue Lebron is easily the best at his position. Agreed?

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 09:20 AM
this poll has become a joke, sorry. Ellis at #6? Mayo at #9? I guess its not about position, its the order I have a problem with.
Anyways, its Martin here, period.

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 09:22 AM
this poll has become a joke, sorry. Ellis at #6? Mayo at #9? I guess its not about position, its the order I have a problem with.
Anyways, its Martin here, period.

Numbers do mean something and Ellis had an incredible year. I am not saying he should of gone at 6 but ever since we have passed number 5, An argument can be made for almost any player to be picked.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 09:27 AM
Numbers do mean something and Ellis had an incredible year. I am not saying he should of gone at 6 but ever since we have passed number 5, An argument can be made for almost any player to be picked.

he was terrible this year.

The Miami Cheat
08-20-2010, 09:28 AM
i say j-rich

NBA-GMaster
08-20-2010, 09:31 AM
Kevin martin!!

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 09:35 AM
he was terrible this year.

:facepalm: I dont get how 25ppg on 45% shooting, 5.5 apg, 4.0 rpg and over 2 steals a game is terrible?

Niro
08-20-2010, 09:36 AM
Last SG poll. I will probably start the SF poll miday today.

Last year I gave Lebron top spot, I feel as if it should be done again. While Durant and Melo are up there, I think few would argue Lebron is easily the best at his position. Agreed?

agreed

i picked j-rich

Brooklyn Mets
08-20-2010, 09:37 AM
i say j-rich

hell win it..

i would raher have crawford on my team though..

D-Train#35
08-20-2010, 09:37 AM
Not a big fan of the ratings so far. I'd put J-Rich and Martin ahead of Mayo.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 09:38 AM
:facepalm: I dont get how 25ppg on 45% shooting, 5.5 apg, 4.0 rpg and over 2 steals a game is terrible?

look at his real numbers dude. Not per game numbers and FG%. Those are the worst things to look at. They make the average fan think Ellis is good, something we shouldn't promote. He is a chucker who plays more minutes than anyone in the NBA, who shoots his team out of games. There is a reason his team is -7.2 ppg with him on the floor, and +3.5 with him off the floor.

alencp3
08-20-2010, 09:39 AM
J-Rich
For the SFs it should be 1.Bron 2.Durant 3.Melo 4.Pierce 5.Granger

JamaicanYouth
08-20-2010, 09:42 AM
this is getting out of control kmart is way better than richarson idk but when jrich missed that wide open dunk to win that game there was no way i consider him a top 10 SG an he hasnt been for the last 2 years so what changed now to make him better that kmart?

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 09:43 AM
this is getting out of control kmart is way better than richarson idk but when jrich missed that wide open dunk to win that game there was no way i consider him a top 10 SG an he hasnt been for the last 2 years so what changed now to make him better that kmart?

cause he caught fire in the playoffs, and PSD is home of short term memories

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 09:44 AM
look at his real numbers dude. Not per game numbers and FG%. Those are the worst things to look at. They make the average fan think Ellis is good, something we shouldn't promote. He is a chucker who plays more minutes than anyone in the NBA, who shoots his team out of games. There is a reason his team is -7.2 ppg with him on the floor, and +3.5 with him off the floor.

I am sorry, you can't ignore basic staline averages. Basketball is not a a game based on sabermetrics like baseball. If all you are going to use is +/- to debate his worth, you are missing the big picture when it comes to his ability.

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 09:47 AM
cause he caught fire in the playoffs, and PSD is home of short term memories

No..Its because he is the better player. Kevin martin is a streak shooter. Thats it. He is one of the worst defenders in the league at his position and offers little to a team other than a supposed good 3pt shot. He was outstanding last year to. Shot under 42% with Huston and 33% from behind the arch.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 09:54 AM
I am sorry, you can't ignore basic staline averages. Basketball is not a a game based on sabermetrics like baseball. If all you are going to use is +/- to debate his worth, you are missing the big picture when it comes to his ability.

and you can't use them in an argument to prove worth either. Fact is, Ellis is a chucker with a pathetic TS% for a so called elite player, with a below average offensive rating, doesn't play defense, and shoots his teams out of games. he is by no means a #1 option, and hasn't had a good season since 07-08'. Lets put him up against Kevin Martin, who should be the next SG picked. in fact, I will even throw in JRich for you.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=ellismo01&y1=2010&p2=richaja01&y2=2010&p3=martike02&y3=2010

Ellis didn't have a single offensive win share. Not one. His offense contributed to literally nothing for the Warriors.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 09:57 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=ellismo01&y1=2010&p2=richaja01&y2=2010&p3=martike02&y3=2010

and their career's next to each other.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 09:58 AM
Chronz also posted a stat about a week ago, showing Ellis as the 2nd worst player in the NBA, production wise, who plays over 30 mpg.

masalex1205
08-20-2010, 10:05 AM
:facepalm: I dont get how 25ppg on 45% shooting, 5.5 apg, 4.0 rpg and over 2 steals a game is terrible?

this is why a lot of PSD posters do not know what they are talking about. Ellis took the rest of his team out of the flow of the game, stagnated the offense, and got his numbers without helping his team win

Kevin Martin is the obvious choice here

NBA-GMaster
08-20-2010, 10:10 AM
For the SFs it should be 1.Bron 2.Durant 3.Melo 4.Pierce 5.Granger

I agree!! 1. Bron-bron 2. Kevster 3. Mel-O :clap:

xbrackattackx
08-20-2010, 10:14 AM
I went J-Rich, And Don't put Lebron first let people Vote

NBA-GMaster
08-20-2010, 10:15 AM
I think Tmac could win this no. 10 spot, by popularity vote.. haha!! :laugh:

BOSTON617
08-20-2010, 10:16 AM
j-rich!

BOSTON617
08-20-2010, 10:16 AM
I went J-Rich, And Don't put Lebron first let people Vote

this!

Avenged
08-20-2010, 10:20 AM
Jason Richardson for me as well.

I haven't seen much of Martin play so I can't really judge fairly.

J-Rich was a big reason the Suns overachieved this past season and carried them in numerous games in the playoffs.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 10:22 AM
I haven't followed these enough, are we judging who had the best season last year, or who we would take for the upcoming season??

xbrackattackx
08-20-2010, 10:23 AM
I just think as hard as people have voted, OP shouldn't just pick who goes where, I didn't agree with filling in Rose and Wade either should have been voted by PSDers.

Niro
08-20-2010, 10:23 AM
I went J-Rich, And Don't put Lebron first let people Vote

so you dont think lebron who is at least a top 2 player (with the other one being kobe-a sg) is not the best sf in the league???

:facepalm:

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 10:28 AM
and you can't use them in an argument to prove worth either. Fact is, Ellis is a chucker with a pathetic TS% for a so called elite player, with a below average offensive rating, doesn't play defense, and shoots his teams out of games. he is by no means a #1 option, and hasn't had a good season since 07-08'. Lets put him up against Kevin Martin, who should be the next SG picked. in fact, I will even throw in JRich for you.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=ellismo01&y1=2010&p2=richaja01&y2=2010&p3=martike02&y3=2010

Ellis didn't have a single offensive win share. Not one. His offense contributed to literally nothing for the Warriors.

Of course you can use them in an argument. They are statistics that show a player’s individual ability. Martin last year was plain average. He has not played in 65 games or more since 2006, how can he even be in the conversation as top 10 at his position when he is never on the floor?

Martin's eFG% was once again below Ellis. I look at that statistic as being more of an indication of a players worth than true shooting percentage because it actually factors in every shot not being equal. Why should a 5 foot jump shot be measured the same as a 25-foot 3pt shot? It shouldn’t. Ellis Assist % was off the charts next to Martins. 21% to 11%.

The fact that Martins awful defense is not in the discussion irritates me. While Ellis is not a good defender, Martin happens to be possibly the worst defender that plays SG.

xbrackattackx
08-20-2010, 10:33 AM
so you dont think lebron who is at least a top 2 player (with the other one being kobe-a sg) is not the best sf in the league???

:facepalm:

I never said he wasn't :facepalm: , I think he is also. I just wanna vote.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 10:33 AM
Of course you can use them in an argument. They are statistics that show a player’s individual ability. Martin last year was plain average. He has not played in 65 games or more since 2006, how can he even be in the conversation as top 10 at his position when he is never on the floor?

Martin's eFG% was once again below Ellis. I look at that statistic as being more of an indication of a players worth than true shooting percentage because it actually factors in every shot not being equal. Why should a 5 foot jump shot be measured the same as a 25-foot 3pt shot? It shouldn’t. Ellis Assist % was off the charts next to Martins. 21% to 11%.

The fact that Martins awful defense is not in the discussion irritates me. While Ellis is not a good defender, Martin happens to be possibly the worst defender that plays SG.


no doubt that Martin has issues staying upright because of his frame and style of play. But I just showed you dude, Ellis's offense didn't contribute even a fraction of an offensive win share. Nothing. That means for every stat you post attempting to give Ellis credit, it did literally nothing to help his team win a single game.
JRich creates some seperation due to his playoff efficiency over his career. But you also need to factor in, Martin missed the first 15 games or so, then was traded midseason, and had to adjust to a new offense. He finished strong, and is healthy currently, so I take him over JRich going into next season, and over Ellis any day of the week.
And Ellis's defense is nothing to write home about dude. That should not be used in a discussion either.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 10:41 AM
this was posted in the Worst Player who gets PT thread as well. Monta ranks #2 worst in WS/48 in the NBA for a player who gets over 30 mpg.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2010&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=mp_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=30&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=500&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ws_per_48&order_by_asc=Y

NBA-GMaster
08-20-2010, 10:41 AM
I never said he wasn't, I think he is also. I just wanna vote.

^ He's right!! You cannot guarantee he's no. 1 SF because it depends on how many LeBron Haters will vote for the other guy.. :D But IMO He really deserves to be no.1 because of his 2 consecutive seasons MVP and making the Cavs the top team last regular season..

Avenged
08-20-2010, 10:46 AM
Lets get over Monta and Mayo already! I don't think they belong where they were picked either but nothing will change that anymore.

The majority>minority, end of story.

It's between Jason Richardson vs. Kevin Martin at this point.

Shammyguy3
08-20-2010, 10:46 AM
If Martin could keep himself on the court I'd put him here, but i give the nod to J.Rich because Martin doesn't play even 60 games on average in his career. They should both be higher on the list though, with Ellis & Jackson being jokes at their respective spots.

xbrackattackx
08-20-2010, 10:47 AM
Lets get over Monta and Mayo already! I don't think they belong where they were picked either but nothing will change that anymore.

The majority>minority, end of story.

It's between Jason Richardson vs. Jason Richardson at this point.

Fixed ;)

NBA-GMaster
08-20-2010, 10:48 AM
Lets get over Monta and Mayo already! I don't think they belong where they were picked either but nothing will change that anymore.

The majority>minority, end of story.

It's between Jason Richardson vs. Kevin Martin at this point.

:rock:

Antipod
08-20-2010, 10:50 AM
The hardest one ... i went with E.Gordon:confused:

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 10:50 AM
Lets get over Monta and Mayo already! I don't think they belong where they were picked either but nothing will change that anymore.

The majority>minority, end of story.

It's between Jason Richardson vs. Kevin Martin at this point.

You're right. I will stop it now. I just get so fired up about how people rate players due to their per game numbers, especially one that plays on the fastest pace team and plays 42 mpg. Of course if you chuck up enough shots, some will go in and you will have a pretty line in the box score for the average fan to see and appreciate

ok, done

ALL_i-Do_is-Win
08-20-2010, 10:58 AM
you cann't go with either j rich or martin
stop fighting about ellis thing it is done and gone ( i don't agree either he should not be that high)
people who are arguing with stats.. they don't show everything in the nba... yeah they are good things to base it off of but it also depends on different situations like looking at some's defense ( if a players is a bad defender but has good help defenders behind him to protect him that means his defensive stats gets boost)
i think people are voting on how good they were last year but more on their potential of their upcoming season
with that said lbj is 2 time mvp coming off of mvp season there is no doubt he is the second best player if not the best in the nba
if we have a voting for #1 sf then lbj haters will vote him out of the spot
i don't like lbj either but he deserve to be #1 in his position at least...

J-Relo
08-20-2010, 11:00 AM
J-Rich
For the SFs it should be 1.Bron 2.Durant 3.Melo 4.Pierce 5.Granger

you really think Pierce is still top 4?

BenFrank
08-20-2010, 11:01 AM
It's a lot of Fanboyism... when these polls are conducted.. I have a hard time takein them seriously whenever everyone just vote for the favorite player

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 11:01 AM
You're right. I will stop it now. I just get so fired up about how people rate players due to their per game numbers, especially one that plays on the fastest pace team and plays 42 mpg. Of course if you chuck up enough shots, some will go in and you will have a pretty line in the box score for the average fan to see and appreciate

ok, done

I don't see how that is the defenition of a chucker. He attempted 22 shots per game and shot 45% on those shots attempted. Thats hardly a bad number. A chucker is a player who manages to score 25+ ppg yet only shoots 38% from the floor. Ellis is may take a lot of shots but he is not a chucker.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 11:03 AM
I don't see how that is the defenition of a chucker. He attempted 22 shots per game and shot 45% on those shots attempted. Thats hardly a bad number. A chucker is a player who manages to score 25+ ppg yet only shoots 38% from the floor. Ellis is may take a lot of shots but he is not a chucker.

We are done with this discussion, I posted all the evidence necessary for others to make up their own mind.
Peace

Niro
08-20-2010, 11:04 AM
I never said he wasn't :facepalm: , I think he is also. I just wanna vote.

well why vote when its clear that he is #1?

xbrackattackx
08-20-2010, 11:06 AM
well why vote when its clear that he is #1?

Because the whole purpose of a Poll is to vote for EVERY POSITION not just get it filled in. I'm sorry but the only fair way.

Niro
08-20-2010, 11:16 AM
Because the whole purpose of a Poll is to vote for EVERY POSITION not just get it filled in. I'm sorry but the only fair way.

yes that should be the normal way, but with all the lebron haters here corey maggette would be voted #1 if he would be the only other choice:(

its kinda off topic though and i get your point..we will see what mile high champ will do;)

td0tsfinest
08-20-2010, 11:21 AM
Last SG poll. I will probably start the SF poll miday today.

Last year I gave Lebron top spot, I feel as if it should be done again. While Durant and Melo are up there, I think few would argue Lebron is easily the best at his position. Agreed?

I agree. There are a lot of Lebron hates on PSD but he's clearly the best SF in the league.

I went with Kevin Martin on this poll.

Shammyguy3
08-20-2010, 11:25 AM
I don't see how that is the defenition of a chucker. He attempted 22 shots per game and shot 45% on those shots attempted. Thats hardly a bad number. A chucker is a player who manages to score 25+ ppg yet only shoots 38% from the floor. Ellis is may take a lot of shots but he is not a chucker.

a career ts% of 53.1% is average... and the last two seasons he's had a ts% of 50.3% and 51.7% which is just ****ing terrible. His eFG% the last two seasons has been 46.0% and 47.6%, which aren't good either. Ellis is definitely a chucker, and he's had an abysmal ORtg the last two seasons of 99.


Ellis is bad, get over it.


We are done with this discussion, I posted all the evidence necessary for others to make up their own mind.
Peace

People will just be ignorant and ignore any facts that they refuse to accept for fact, especially if it doesn't back their own argument that has no basis at all.

Kakaroach
08-20-2010, 11:36 AM
Jason Richardson, I'd prefer him over Mayo as of right now.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 11:42 AM
a career ts% of 53.1% is average... and the last two seasons he's had a ts% of 50.3% and 51.7% which is just ****ing terrible. His eFG% the last two seasons has been 46.0% and 47.6%, which aren't good either. Ellis is definitely a chucker, and he's had an abysmal ORtg the last two seasons of 99.


Ellis is bad, get over it.



People will just be ignorant and ignore any facts that they refuse to accept for fact, especially if it doesn't back their own argument that has no basis at all.

in 07-08', when Monta was a 3rd option, he was actually really good. But that is the thing, there is NO WAY the #6 SG in the NBA is better off as a 3rd option in need of a power guard to slow SG's because he is too little to defend them.
Hence why Monta should be out of the top 10 SG's, and there is no arguing that

Jays Claw
08-20-2010, 11:43 AM
I went with Jason Richardson here. Although you can't go wrong with Kevin Martin either.

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 11:47 AM
a career ts% of 53.1% is average... and the last two seasons he's had a ts% of 50.3% and 51.7% which is just ****ing terrible. His eFG% the last two seasons has been 46.0% and 47.6%, which aren't good either. Ellis is definitely a chucker, and he's had an abysmal ORtg the last two seasons of 99. .

eFG% is a much better statistic than ts%. I believe Ellis had Martin beat there. Man some of you go crazy for this as much as the sabermetrics geeks go crazy for UZR. He is not a chucker at all, his percentages clearly show that.



Ellis is bad, get over it.

Solid argument, you got me beat. :facepalm:



People will just be ignorant and ignore any facts that they refuse to accept for fact, especially if it doesn't back their own argument that has no basis at all.

No its opinion, you are being selective in the stats you use to support your argument. It has nothing to do with ignorance at all. Just because you use ORTG and ts% as the basis of your argument to why Ellis sucks, it does not mean every other stat is just useless because it does not support your own argument.

I never said Ellis was a great SG, I simply said he was better than Kevin " I only play 50 games a year " Martin.

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 11:51 AM
TS% is the biggest BS stat that exists. Of coruse it would make sense to calculate a shooting percentage based on the fact that free throws, field goals and 3pt attempts are all considered the same kind of shot attempt...

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 11:56 AM
Kevin Martin ranked 20th among all nba guards in efficency last season. Monta Ellis 7th..

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=OVERALL&position=5&splitType=9&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&sortOrder=7&splitDD=All%20Teams

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 11:58 AM
Kevin Martin ranked 20th among all nba guards in efficency last season. Monta Ellis 7th..

where do you get this number from? And please do not tell me NBA.com

Rivera
08-20-2010, 11:58 AM
I think Tmac could win this no. 10 spot, by popularity vote.. haha!! :laugh:

man i dont think he could beat Iverson

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 11:59 AM
Kevin Martin ranked 20th among all nba guards in efficency last season. Monta Ellis 7th..

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=OVERALL&position=5&splitType=9&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&sortOrder=7&splitDD=All%20Teams

useless. They don't take into account anything but positives. Its like adding up totals for per game, and dividing them. No bueno my friend

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-20-2010, 12:02 PM
J-Rich

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 12:03 PM
useless. They don't take into account anything but positives. Its like adding up totals for per game, and dividing them. No bueno my friend

Fine same with your garbage TS%. How are free throws in any way shape or form equal to a field goal attempt or 3pt shot? Players with high free throw percentages will naturally have high TS%. There is a clear correlation. As a result Martins 87% from the line free throw shooting helps inflate his awful percentages from the rest of the field.

Rivera
08-20-2010, 12:04 PM
Last year I gave Lebron top spot, I feel as if it should be done again. While Durant and Melo are up there, I think few would argue Lebron is easily the best at his position. Agreed?

honestly not trying to be a lebron basher i would pick durant over LBJ

the reason for this is because durants a more complete game than LBJ

his D improved big time last yr and theres nothing he cant do on offense.....ive NEVER seen lebron take his man in the post n give him a turn around J

Ive never seen lebron come off screens and hit the J

ive honestly never seen lebron move on offense without the ball

lebron wit the cavs was the PG dribble dribble dribble take it to the whole n either make it/and1/miss it/ or complain a bt a foul that never happened LBJ's Jumper did improve but sayin that His Jumper is not on the level of Kevin Durant im just sayin those r my reasons for pickin KD over LBJ

NBA-GMaster
08-20-2010, 12:13 PM
man i dont think he could beat Iverson

Haha!! :p

MackSnackWrap
08-20-2010, 12:14 PM
MR Crawford

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-20-2010, 12:18 PM
tell me MHC why Monta has the worst on and off court +/- in warriors?

Shammyguy3
08-20-2010, 12:19 PM
Fine same with your garbage TS%. How are free throws in any way shape or form equal to a field goal attempt or 3pt shot? Players with high free throw percentages will naturally have high TS%. There is a clear correlation. As a result Martins 87% from the line free throw shooting helps inflate his awful percentages from the rest of the field.

the ts% formula doesn't only take free throw percentage, it takes free throws attempted:

True Shooting Percentage

Points
__________

(2 * (FGA + (0.44 * FTA))


It does not make free throws = field goals or 3pointers.
It takes 44% times the number of the free throws attempted, added with the total number of field goals and multiplied by two. Then, taking the points scored by the player, and dividing that number by the bottom number, gives you ts%.


It factors in free throws, and free throws are a big part of the game.
ts% is definitely not a garbage stat, especially if you use ORtg and eFG% along with it.

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 12:27 PM
the ts% formula doesn't only take free throw percentage, it takes free throws attempted:

True Shooting Percentage

Points
__________

(2 * (FGA + (0.44 * FTA))


It does not make free throws = field goals or 3pointers.
It takes 44% times the number of the free throws attempted, added with the total number of field goals and multiplied by two. Then, taking the points scored by the player, and dividing that number by the bottom number, gives you ts%.


It factors in free throws, and free throws are a big part of the game.
ts% is definitely not a garbage stat, especially if you use ORtg and eFG% along with it.

You missed what I just said. I know it takes attempts into account. However, It is still putting free throws on par or close to with other shots. Its very simple, if you are a good free throw shooter and you have a decent volume of attempts, It can really cloud just how bad of a shooter you could be from the rest of the field. That 87% Martin shot from the line masks his othes sub par percentages.

Free throws yes are a big part of the game but they remain a stationary shot with no defense in front of you. You being able to nail 87% of your free throws is impressive but it by no means should cover up your inability to be an effective shooter from the rest of the field.

Testaverde16
08-20-2010, 12:29 PM
vince sucks... really funny to me.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-20-2010, 12:33 PM
vince sucks... really funny to me.

it isn't funny cause its true

King P
08-20-2010, 12:34 PM
Carter

97NYer
08-20-2010, 12:35 PM
Why J Rich? I was choosing between Martin/VC/Crawford and went with Martin.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-20-2010, 12:37 PM
Why J Rich? I was choosing between Martin/VC/Crawford and went with Martin.

playoffs

Chronz
08-20-2010, 12:56 PM
I don't see how that is the defenition of a chucker. He attempted 22 shots per game and shot 45% on those shots attempted. Thats hardly a bad number. A chucker is a player who manages to score 25+ ppg yet only shoots 38% from the floor. Ellis is may take a lot of shots but he is not a chucker.
Again your focusing on the wrong #'s. 45% with no 3's, high turnovers, and a low rate of FT's equates to an offensive RTG of 99. Thats beyond putrid, to put in comparison thats Antoine Walker territory. Walker was the definition of cancerous chucker but even Monta makes him look like a team player.

Your definition of a chucker doesnt exist, if we followed your train of though there has only been 1 season that meets that criteria (An Injured Iverson) and even then his poor shot selection was more justifiable than Monta. Clearly your bias or lack of experience with statistics is getting in the way here.

Youve also stated that Kevin Martin was a poor defender (which he is) but to say hes not on Monta's level because of it is indefensible especially when Monta is bad himself. Given that Kevin Martin is a superior offensive player shouldnt we value him higher?

Daryl Morey would have NEVER traded for Monta yet he refers to KM as a championship caliber 2.

zambo4president
08-20-2010, 12:57 PM
Hmm, I gotta give it to J-Rich I think. :laugh2: Looks like most of you agreed too.

Raidaz4Life
08-20-2010, 12:58 PM
I love j-rich but come on.... this has to be Martin

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 12:59 PM
Again your focusing on the wrong #'s. 45% with no 3's, high turnovers, and a low rate of FT's equates to an offensive RTG of 99. Thats beyond putrid, to put in comparison thats Antoine Walker territory. Walker was the definition of cancerous chucker but even Monta makes him look like a team player.

Your definition of a chucker doesnt exist, if we followed your train of though there has only been 1 season that meets that criteria (An Injured Iverson) and even then his poor shot selection was more justifiable than Monta. Clearly your bias or lack of experience with statistics is getting in the way here.

Youve also stated that Kevin Martin was a poor defender (which he is) but to say hes not on Monta's level because of it is indefensible especially when Monta is bad himself. Given that Kevin Martin is a superior offensive player shouldnt we value him higher?

Daryl Morey would have NEVER traded for Monta yet he refers to KM as a championship caliber 2.

Kevin Martin not a superior offensive player. His TS% and eFG% are high because of his free throw percentage. He is not a good shooter from anywhere else on the floor. That remains a fact.. Ellis of course would have more turnovers per game because of the system he plays in. He is a product of Nelson insanity and the garbage system he runs. If your team ends up with more offesnive possesions than the majority of the rest of the league, it only makes sense that you would turn the ball over more if it is your hands a percentage of the game. Martin is an off the ball kind of player. He is a streaky shooter that offers next no consistency other than his Free throw shooting.

Chronz
08-20-2010, 12:59 PM
TS% is the biggest BS stat that exists. Of coruse it would make sense to calculate a shooting percentage based on the fact that free throws, field goals and 3pt attempts are all considered the same kind of shot attempt...
Why doesnt a single statistician (guys who get paid for this kind of stuff) agree with you?
Name one GM that would agree, theres a reason why TS% correlates with winning higher than FG% and eFG%

Chronz
08-20-2010, 01:01 PM
Fine same with your garbage TS%. How are free throws in any way shape or form equal to a field goal attempt or 3pt shot? Players with high free throw percentages will naturally have high TS%. There is a clear correlation. As a result Martins 87% from the line free throw shooting helps inflate his awful percentages from the rest of the field.
Actually the correlation gos with players with a high rate of free throw attempts per shot attempts. Even the worse free throw shooter in the league could have a high TS% if he gets there enough, because you see even shooting free throws at a 60% clip is more efficient than Monta's 45% from the field, the trick is in getting there.

And they are equal because they too cost possessions. You cant ignore stats just because they dont agree with your opinion. Cmon man at first I thought you were a blind homer, but now your acting stubborn with your false claims.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 01:04 PM
here is a part of Hollingers article on greatest shooters ever. It defines shooting pretty well actually


From there, I set about creating a formula to rank the best shooters. I thought I'd have to dream up something very complex to adjust for all the variables involved, but it turned out a simple formula worked far better than any of my more exotic concoctions. I simply added a player's 2-point, 3-point and free throw percentages. We'll call this "Combined Shooting Rating," or CSR for short.

CSR works for a few reasons. First, the free throw is a pretty fair arbiter of shooting ability. It's the only true apples-to-apples measurement we have, because it's always 15 feet from the hoop and unguarded, regardless of what system the team runs or how the player is used. It's only one shot among many that need to be in a player's arsenal, but it's an important one.

Second, the yin and yang of 2-point and 3-point ability balance each other out. Some players are more effective midrange shooters than long-range marksmen, while others are more comfortable bombing away. And using this method makes the system more fair to players from the 1980s and early '90s, when teams didn't utilize the 3 as often or as effectively.

The one thing I left out was frequency. Obviously, players who pick their spots get higher-percentage looks than those who are the focal point of the offense on play after play. On the other hand, it's extremely difficult for players in the former group to shoot well enough from the line to crack the elite on this list, simply because of the lack of in-game repetition

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 01:05 PM
off topic a bit, but informative

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 01:07 PM
Why doesnt a single statistician (guys who get paid for this kind of stuff) agree with you?
Name one GM that would agree, theres a reason why TS% correlates with winning higher than FG% and eFG%

where are your sources? Give me the names of 5 GM's and proof that they would always use TS% over eFG%. Your simply generalizing.

Mile High Champ
08-20-2010, 01:08 PM
off topic a bit, but informative

Agreed, though I really hate John Hollinger..

Chronz
08-20-2010, 01:09 PM
Kevin Martin not a superior offensive player. His TS% and eFG% are high because of his free throw percentage.
eFG% is efficiency from the FIELD. FT shooting has no impact on it.

But yes its his ability to get to the line so frequently while maintaining a low turnover rate that makes him a superior offensive player.



He is not a good shooter from anywhere else on the floor. That remains a fact.
Hes spaces the floor MUCH better so to say hes not a good shooter anywhere else would be a lie. Besides why would I care, all I care about are results.


Ellis of course would have more turnovers per game because of the system he plays in. He is a product of Nelson insanity and the garbage system he runs. If your team ends up with more offesnive possesions than the majority of the rest of the league, it only makes sense that you would turn the ball over more if it is your hands a percentage of the game.
Your still not getting the point of advanced stats. We are ACCOUNTING for PACE. Monta is STILL more turnover prone to get his stats even after accounting for all that. He is a product of his own play style, if your coach can have such a dramatic impact on your level of play then your not that good of a player.



Martin is an off the ball kind of player. He is a streaky shooter that offers next no consistency other than his Free throw shooting.
If only you had more than opinions maybe people would believe you. Sadly youve proven that your opinions often go against what every GM/STATISTICIAN believes to be true. How can we believe anything you say when your willing to lie about the accuracy of eFG% vs TS%?

Steelers23_06
08-20-2010, 01:09 PM
i dont care about stats i dont even have to look this one up jrich brings more to his team. he is more of a leader than kmart 2.0. i think next season we will see eric gordon on this list. i see him maturing alot next season especially playing alongside blake griffin.

SC1211
08-20-2010, 01:10 PM
It's a travesty that Monta Ellis is in the top 10. All flash no substance. Have you guys seen his winshares? It shows that he literally contributes nothing to his team.

Martin is the obvious choice.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 01:12 PM
i dont are about stats i dont even have to look this one up jrich brings more to his team. he is more of a leader than kmart 2.0. i think next season we will see eric gordon on this list. i see him maturing alot next season especially playing alongside blake griffin.

if you don't care about stats, then you will never get the true picture of a players worth my friend

Chronz
08-20-2010, 01:12 PM
where are your sources? Give me the names of 5 GM's and proof that they would always use TS% over eFG%. Your simply generalizing.
I could but why should I when the onus is on you. Or do you honestly believe you have more of an understanding with these stats to make those claims? I KNOW you were talking out of your *** to make a convincing argument. So lets see what you got, I got my argument ready to paste if you want to admit you have nothing but opinions.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 01:14 PM
It's a travesty that Monta Ellis is in the top 10. All flash no substance. Have you guys seen his winshares? It shows that he literally contributes nothing to his team.

Martin is the obvious choice.

he had 0 win shares. And for anyone crapping on Martin's defense, the ONE TIME Ellis went to the playoffs, he had a win share in the negatives on both defense, and total win shares. The dude was better off on the bench.

Avenged
08-20-2010, 01:24 PM
i dont care about stats i dont even have to look this one up jrich brings more to his team. he is more of a leader than kmart 2.0. i think next season we will see eric gordon on this list. i see him maturing alot next season especially playing alongside blake griffin.

Stats are a major part of the game.

I don't agree with the people who say "stats aren't everything, I actually see them play".

If people actually saw them play, you would know stats hold of great significance and I'm not talking about the basic stats as in ppg, assists, rebounds, blocks either.

Shammyguy3
08-20-2010, 01:33 PM
You missed what I just said. I know it takes attempts into account. However, It is still putting free throws on par or close to with other shots. Its very simple, if you are a good free throw shooter and you have a decent volume of attempts, It can really cloud just how bad of a shooter you could be from the rest of the field. That 87% Martin shot from the line masks his othes sub par percentages.

Free throws yes are a big part of the game but they remain a stationary shot with no defense in front of you. You being able to nail 87% of your free throws is impressive but it by no means should cover up your inability to be an effective shooter from the rest of the field.

Look at his ts%, eFG%, and ORtg. Then look at Martin's.
Case closed.


Kevin Martin not a superior offensive player. His TS% and eFG% are high because of his free throw percentage. He is not a good shooter from anywhere else on the floor. That remains a fact..

Yea he is. And free throws do not affect eFG%.

Kevin Martin shooting percentages the last 4 years (italicized is 2010 from SAC & HOU):
Kevin Martin
At Rim:
65.0%, 61.0%, 54.0%, 53.6%, 58.0% on
3.5, 4.1, 3.1, 3.1, 3.4 attempts
<10feet:
49.0%, 37.0%, 43.0%, 44.1%, 55.6% on
1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.5, 1.1 attempts
10-15feet:
47.0%, 41.0%, 33.0%, 34.8%, 28.1% on
1.2, 1.1, 1.4, 1.0, 1.3 attempts
16-23feet:
42.0%, 41.0%, 38.0%, 35.0%, 46.0% on
3.3, 4.2, 4.7, 4.7, 4.8 attempts
Efficiency from three:
57.2%, 60.3%, 62.3%, 53.3%, 46.5% on
4.2, 4.4, 5.4, 5.0, 4.2 attempts


Then look at Ellis's:
Monta Ellis
At Rim:
68.0%, 66.0%, 60.0%, 61.2% on
4.9, 6.0, 4.5, 6.6 attempts
<10feet:
40.0%, 51.0%, 57.0%, 43.9% on
1.6, 1.9, 3., 3.3 attempts
10-15feet:
32.0%, 50.0%, 26.0%, 38.7% on
0.9, 1.1, 1.4, 1.7 attempts
16-23feet:
38.0%, 44.0%, 36.0%, 37.0% on
3.7, 5.4, 7.3, 6.8 attempts
Efficiency from three:
41.0%, 34.7%, 46.2%, 50.7% on
1.9, 0.6, 1.0, 3.6 attempts



They're pretty close everywhere, except Martin is much much much better at three point shooting. He also gets to the line at 7.1 - 9.5 - 10.3 - and 7.4 attempts per game the last four years while Ellis is at 4.6 - 5.1 - 3.8 - and 6.1 attempts.

Monta Ellis has posted OWS of -0.3 __ 2.0 __ 7.1 __ -0.1 __ 0.0 for a career OWS of 8.8
Kevin Martin has posted OWS of -0.1__ 3.6 __ 8.3 __ 7.4 __ 4.7 __ 3.2 for a career OWS of 27.1

And don't even mention how Martin has been in the league longer. Over their careers, Martin has only played 10,982 while Ellis has played 10,134. Those 848 minutes does not account for a difference of OWS being 18.3

J_M_B
08-20-2010, 01:54 PM
Kevin Martin.

Steelers23_06
08-20-2010, 01:59 PM
Stats are a major part of the game.

I don't agree with the people who say "stats aren't everything, I actually see them play".

If people actually saw them play, you would know stats hold of great significance and I'm not talking about the basic stats as in ppg, assists, rebounds, blocks either.

jason richardson is on a team that made it to the playoff and was a key contributor if kevin martin was top 10 material do you really think the kings would trade him when they havent made the playoffs in yearsssss? :eyebrow:

Avenged
08-20-2010, 02:01 PM
jason richardson is on a team that made it to the playoff and was a key contributor if kevin martin was top 10 material do you really think the kings would trade him when they havent made the playoffs in yearsssss? :eyebrow:

My vote went to J-Rich as well but your reasoning for it is way off.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 02:06 PM
jason richardson is on a team that made it to the playoff and was a key contributor if kevin martin was top 10 material do you really think the kings would trade him when they havent made the playoffs in yearsssss? :eyebrow:

um, the Kings happened to have drafted their future SG last year, and were in desperate need of an efficient big, in which they got in Landry. That is why Martin was expendable.
And being on a team that makes the playoffs is not only a result of that player in many cases, but what they have around them

Chronz
08-20-2010, 02:38 PM
jason richardson is on a team that made it to the playoff and was a key contributor if kevin martin was top 10 material do you really think the kings would trade him when they havent made the playoffs in yearsssss? :eyebrow:
Why wouldnt they?

Baller1
08-20-2010, 03:52 PM
I chose VC, but I was torn between him and Crawford.

REALLYYYYY?
08-20-2010, 04:23 PM
keith bogans obviously

xbrackattackx
08-20-2010, 04:28 PM
J rich Finally!

The Raven
08-20-2010, 04:53 PM
I personally think Eric Gordon

Kashmir13579
08-20-2010, 04:56 PM
jamal crawford missed the top ten. i have officially lost all respect for the public nba forum. do any of you fools know anything? screw you guys; i'm going home.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 05:00 PM
jamal crawford missed the top ten. i have officially lost all respect for the public nba forum. do any of you fools know anything? screw you guys; i'm going home.

instead of having an attitude, make a case if you can.

SugeKnight
08-20-2010, 05:12 PM
this is why a lot of PSD posters do not know what they are talking about. Ellis took the rest of his team out of the flow of the game, stagnated the offense, and got his numbers without helping his team win

TO ALL MONTA HATERS:

1. Monta is on the Warriors, a team that plays no team defense, so everybody looks like a poor defender, when in fact, Monta is a very good one-on one defender.

2. Everybody on the Warriors was injured last year except Curry and Ellis. They were forced to give major burn to players like Mikki Moore, Devean George, Coby Karl, Cartier Martin, Anthony Tolliver and Chris Hunter. Would you really want them taking all the shots instead of Monta?

3. Monta plays best off the ball, ex: 2007. Towards the end of the year Curry handled the ball more and Monta played a lot better. IDK if his stats are any different, but we finished the season 8-8 with basically Monta, Curry and D-leaguers.

So **** off haters who only use advanced stats to call monta the second worst player in the league

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 05:15 PM
TO ALL MONTA HATERS:

1. Monta is on the Warriors, a team that plays no team defense, so everybody looks like a poor defender, when in fact, Monta is a very good one-on one defender.

2. Everybody on the Warriors was injured last year except Curry and Ellis. They were forced to give major burn to players like Mikki Moore, Devean George, Coby Karl, Cartier Martin, Anthony Tolliver and Chris Hunter. Would you really want them taking all the shots instead of Monta?

3. Monta plays best off the ball, ex: 2007. Towards the end of the year Curry handled the ball more and Monta played a lot better. IDK if his stats are any different, but we finished the season 8-8 with basically Monta, Curry and D-leaguers.

So **** off haters who only use advanced stats to call monta the second worst player in the league

no, what that stat shows, is Monta's contributions made a minimal impact in the win total for the Warriors. And I even agree, in 07-08', he had an excellent season. But since then, his role has changed, and he has been pretty terrible dude. I also stated, that if they get rid of Nelson, change their playing style, and get him back to the 2/3rd option, he could again be a really good player.

But the stats don't lie man. His +/- is horrendous, and there are no excuses for that. He plays so many minutes, his cast can't be blamed.

Kashmir13579
08-20-2010, 05:15 PM
u mad?

yes actually, it does make me relatively angry. monta ellis is a black hole and he's ranked at 6. what a joke.

sunnydayin'zona
08-20-2010, 05:16 PM
this is getting out of control kmart is way better than richarson idk but when jrich missed that wide open dunk to win that game there was no way i consider him a top 10 SG an he hasnt been for the last 2 years so what changed now to make him better that kmart?

he was equal or better than kmart in every statistic last year except assists, in less minutes, shooting about 10% better from the fields, and 14% better from behind the arc. and he was the leading scorer on a team that went to the western conference finals.

i dont know what kmart did last year that would make you think he should be higher than jrich...

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-20-2010, 05:24 PM
u mad?

x2

Kashmir13579
08-20-2010, 05:25 PM
instead of having an attitude, make a case if you can.

i shouldn't have to make a case that crawford is a better SG than monta, ray ray, or jrich. it should be common knowledge. ray ray deserves to be on this list 2-3 years ago. monta shouldnt even be on this list. jrich is a top ten but not above crawford. crawford goes to the hawks, turns them into a playoff team; and gets absolutely no recognition for it. he has so many tools as well; an elite shot, arguably the best crossover in the game,elite passing and finishing abilitys. also he's not as turnover prone as monta. his on -court decision making is leaps and bounds ahead of montas. when Ray ray couldnt make a shot after game 3, that really hurt the celtics. i'd go as far as to say that his terrible shooting is the biggest reason why Boston lost to L.A. in 7 games. if Crawfords shot is off, their are so many other ways he can be effective or put points on the board. j-rich stats are a product of playing on the suns and if crawford was on a run-n-gun team like that he would be more deadly on the stat sheet. also crawford has put up multiple 50 point games in his career; i'm not saying that should have anything to do with this but it has happened. like i said, IMO it should be common knowledge that jcrawf is better than many of the players picked on this top 10. hawkeye, i know that me and you go at it sometimes; but do you really disagree? and if so how much of j-crawf have you really seen?

black1605
08-20-2010, 05:25 PM
Richardson.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-20-2010, 05:34 PM
TO ALL MONTA HATERS:

1. Monta is on the Warriors, a team that plays no team defense, so everybody looks like a poor defender, when in fact, Monta is a very good one-on one defender.

2. Everybody on the Warriors was injured last year except Curry and Ellis. They were forced to give major burn to players like Mikki Moore, Devean George, Coby Karl, Cartier Martin, Anthony Tolliver and Chris Hunter. Would you really want them taking all the shots instead of Monta?

3. Monta plays best off the ball, ex: 2007. Towards the end of the year Curry handled the ball more and Monta played a lot better. IDK if his stats are any different, but we finished the season 8-8 with basically Monta, Curry and D-leaguers.

So **** off haters who only use advanced stats to call monta the second worst player in the league

Warriors -7.2 when Monta is on court and +3.8 when he's offcourt.

Thats beyond horrible, Curry's numbers are -3.1/-5.0

SugeKnight
08-20-2010, 05:34 PM
Look at his ts%, eFG%, and ORtg. Then look at Martin's.
Case closed.



Yea he is. And free throws do not affect eFG%.

Kevin Martin shooting percentages the last 4 years (italicized is 2010 from SAC & HOU):
Kevin Martin
At Rim:
65.0%, 61.0%, 54.0%, 53.6%, 58.0% on
3.5, 4.1, 3.1, 3.1, 3.4 attempts
<10feet:
49.0%, 37.0%, 43.0%, 44.1%, 55.6% on
1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.5, 1.1 attempts
10-15feet:
47.0%, 41.0%, 33.0%, 34.8%, 28.1% on
1.2, 1.1, 1.4, 1.0, 1.3 attempts
16-23feet:
42.0%, 41.0%, 38.0%, 35.0%, 46.0% on
3.3, 4.2, 4.7, 4.7, 4.8 attempts
Efficiency from three:
57.2%, 60.3%, 62.3%, 53.3%, 46.5% on
4.2, 4.4, 5.4, 5.0, 4.2 attempts


Then look at Ellis's:
Monta Ellis
At Rim:
68.0%, 66.0%, 60.0%, 61.2% on
4.9, 6.0, 4.5, 6.6 attempts
<10feet:
40.0%, 51.0%, 57.0%, 43.9% on
1.6, 1.9, 3., 3.3 attempts
10-15feet:
32.0%, 50.0%, 26.0%, 38.7% on
0.9, 1.1, 1.4, 1.7 attempts
16-23feet:
38.0%, 44.0%, 36.0%, 37.0% on
3.7, 5.4, 7.3, 6.8 attempts
Efficiency from three:
41.0%, 34.7%, 46.2%, 50.7% on
1.9, 0.6, 1.0, 3.6 attempts



They're pretty close everywhere, except Martin is much much much better at three point shooting. He also gets to the line at 7.1 - 9.5 - 10.3 - and 7.4 attempts per game the last four years while Ellis is at 4.6 - 5.1 - 3.8 - and 6.1 attempts.

Monta Ellis has posted OWS of -0.3 __ 2.0 __ 7.1 __ -0.1 __ 0.0 for a career OWS of 8.8
Kevin Martin has posted OWS of -0.1__ 3.6 __ 8.3 __ 7.4 __ 4.7 __ 3.2 for a career OWS of 27.1

And don't even mention how Martin has been in the league longer. Over their careers, Martin has only played 10,982 while Ellis has played 10,134. Those 848 minutes does not account for a difference of OWS being 18.3

:yawn:

SugeKnight
08-20-2010, 05:36 PM
Warriors -7.2 when Monta is on court and +3.8 when he's offcourt.

Thats beyond horrible, Curry's numbers are -3.1/-5.0

Have you ever thought that Monta played 40 mpg and he was only taken out when the game was done, aka garbage time? DUH.

SugeKnight
08-20-2010, 05:39 PM
no, what that stat shows, is Monta's contributions made a minimal impact in the win total for the Warriors. And I even agree, in 07-08', he had an excellent season. But since then, his role has changed, and he has been pretty terrible dude. I also stated, that if they get rid of Nelson, change their playing style, and get him back to the 2/3rd option, he could again be a really good player.

But the stats don't lie man. His +/- is horrendous, and there are no excuses for that. He plays so many minutes, his cast can't be blamed.

He played with Curry and D-leaguers last year. People said the same thing about Kobe when he was playing with smush, kwame and cook. Im not saying Monta is even close to Kobe, but its a very similar situation.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-20-2010, 05:40 PM
Crawford is not a starter though, maybe that affected the voting

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-20-2010, 05:43 PM
Have you ever thought that Monta played 40 mpg and he was only taken out when the game was done, aka garbage time? DUH.

Monta -7.2/+3.8 67% of minutes

Curry -3.1/-5.0 73% minutes

Nice try though:yawn:

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 05:43 PM
i shouldn't have to make a case that crawford is a better SG than monta, ray ray, or jrich. it should be common knowledge. ray ray deserves to be on this list 2-3 years ago. monta shouldnt even be on this list. jrich is a top ten but not above crawford. crawford goes to the hawks, turns them into a playoff team; and gets absolutely no recognition for it. he has so many tools as well; an elite shot, arguably the best crossover in the game,elite passing and finishing abilitys. also he's not as turnover prone as monta. his on -court decision making is leaps and bounds ahead of montas. when Ray ray couldnt make a shot after game 3, that really hurt the celtics. i'd go as far as to say that his terrible shooting is the biggest reason why Boston lost to L.A. in 7 games. if Crawfords shot is off, their are so many other ways he can be effective or put points on the board. j-rich stats are a product of playing on the suns and if crawford was on a run-n-gun team like that he would be more deadly on the stat sheet. also crawford has put up multiple 50 point games in his career; i'm not saying that should have anything to do with this but it has happened. like i said, IMO it should be common knowledge that jcrawf is better than many of the players picked on this top 10. hawkeye, i know that me and you go at it sometimes; but do you really disagree? and if so how much of j-crawf have you really seen?

I have watched Crawford quite a bit actually, he is entertaining. I think it comes from this-- Crawford, before this year, has honestly never been more than an average starting SG in the NBA. He had a spike in efficiency and offensive rating this season in a big way, putting him in the conversation for top 6-8 SG's of 09-10'.
I am not disagreeing with you per say, but I can't put him ahead of
Wade
Kobe
Roy
Manu
JJ


after these guys are out of the way, I would listen to a rational debate on why Crawford should be included.
As I said, its simply because Crawford, until this past season, has never been in the conversation for top 10-12 SG's. I think he obviously was for last season though

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 05:45 PM
He played with Curry and D-leaguers last year. People said the same thing about Kobe when he was playing with smush, kwame and cook. Im not saying Monta is even close to Kobe, but its a very similar situation.

no, playing with less talent barely effects individual efficiency dude.
And the plus/minus rating is as legit as it gets. With a 10 point disparity at the minutes he plays, it shows the Warriors were actually better with Monta off the floor in most cases.

masalex1205
08-20-2010, 05:57 PM
K-Mart

Ovratd1up
08-20-2010, 05:58 PM
No..Its because he is the better player. Kevin martin is a streak shooter. Thats it. He is one of the worst defenders in the league at his position and offers little to a team other than a supposed good 3pt shot. He was outstanding last year to. Shot under 42% with Huston and 33% from behind the arch.

Kevin Martin is year in and year out one of the most efficient scorers in the league. He gets to the line at a great rate, nails his free throws, and even when he isn't a great three point shooter (usually is) he doesn't count on it.

I can't believe you recently supported Monta Ellis and then made this statement.


No..Its because he is the better player. Monta Ellis is a streak shooter. Thats it.

Check.


He is one of the worst defenders in the league at his position

Check.


and offers little to a team other than a supposed good 3pt shot.

Well, I can't really check this one, because little should be replace with nothing, and good three point shot should be replaced by... nothing.


He was outstanding last year to. Shot a TS% of 51.7%

Compared to Kevin Martin's 58.6% mark.

SugeKnight
08-20-2010, 05:59 PM
Monta -7.2/+3.8 67% of minutes

Curry -3.1/-5.0 73% minutes

Nice try though:yawn:

I like how you completely ignored my arguement but,

Stephen Curry: 36 MPG
Monta Ellis: 41 MPG


no, playing with less talent barely effects individual efficiency dude.
Yes it does. If your playing with D-leaguers you're gonna shoot more, pass less, get stuck more often and have defense focus on you more. That will definitely make a drastic effect on FG%, FGA, TOs, and ASTs




And the plus/minus rating is as legit as it gets. With a 10 point disparity at the minutes he plays, it shows the Warriors were actually better with Monta off the floor in most cases.

Monta was only on the bench for 6.6 MPG. Those 6 minutes were usually garbage time which makes it obvious why his +/- is bad. Players on bad usually always have bad +/-, so idk why you keep using that stat, because if you watched more than 5 warrior games you would understand what Monta had to deal with this season

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 06:00 PM
I like how you completely ignored my arguement but,

Stephen Curry: 36 MPG
Monta Ellis: 41 MPG


Yes it does. If your playing with D-leaguers you're gonna shoot more, pass less, get stuck more often and have defense focus on you more. That will definitely make a drastic effect on FG%, FGA, TOs, and ASTs




Monta was only on the bench for 6.6 MPG. Those 6 minutes were usually garbage time which makes it obvious why his +/- is bad. Players on bad usually always have bad +/-, so idk why you keep using that stat, because if you watched more than 5 warrior games you would understand what Monta had to deal with this season


all of your arguments a false. I am taking off from work, I will respond later with a better response :)

SugeKnight
08-20-2010, 06:01 PM
Blah blah blah

you shouldnt even talk about basketball, you think shawn marion is better than bogut.

SugeKnight
08-20-2010, 06:03 PM
all of your arguments a false. I am taking off from work, I will respond later with a better response :)

Not one arguments of mine are false. Step your game up cause I'm styling all over you.

Kashmir13579
08-20-2010, 06:07 PM
I have watched Crawford quite a bit actually, he is entertaining. I think it comes from this-- Crawford, before this year, has honestly never been more than an average starting SG in the NBA. He had a spike in efficiency and offensive rating this season in a big way, putting him in the conversation for top 6-8 SG's of 09-10'.
I am not disagreeing with you per say, but I can't put him ahead of
Wade
Kobe
Roy
Manu
JJ


after these guys are out of the way, I would listen to a rational debate on why Crawford should be included.
As I said, its simply because Crawford, until this past season, has never been in the conversation for top 10-12 SG's. I think he obviously was for last season though

i think a lot of it has to do with the teams he's been on and the players he's been with. his first few seasons with the bulls and knicks, he was a great one on one player; nothing more, nothing less. the bulls at the time were a disgrace and so were the knicks and he basically was a chucker. then larry brown came for that one season. nobody listened to anything larry brown said, not steph marbury, not the knicks front office, not even fans; but jamal crawford was listinening to the HOF coach. he was the only one listening. its my opinion that during his one year stay and NY, larry brown turned a good scorer into a great player. i'm just glad he got to eventually take his skillset to a winning organization. (nothing against my knicks, lmao:D). i also understand there are not too many atlanta fans on PSD and the hawks really get no national media coverage. i wanna go out on a limb here and say that if crawford is still on the bulls or knicks (right now) he would be a lock for the top 5. i think like you said there are the obvious picks for the top 5 and then after that its mostly homers and player fans with little to no knowledge of the game as a whole.

greg_ory_2005
08-20-2010, 06:08 PM
I'll again vote for Martin.

Kashmir13579
08-20-2010, 06:11 PM
Not one arguments of mine are false. Step your game up cause I'm styling all over you.

he gets a little stat happy at times. i'll give you that. even still, monta shouldnt be in the top 10 let alone #6.

Lloyd Christmas
08-20-2010, 06:37 PM
After next season, I think most of you will change your mind about Monta. Also the +/- argument doesn't make much sense in his case. He played almost the whole game every game on a team with no chance to win due to injuries. Of course he will be in the (-) side of the stat. The only time he came out was when the game was already out of hand and both teams put in their scrubs. Usually the team way behing catches up a little since the team ahead just runs out the clock. Does this not make sense?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-20-2010, 07:02 PM
I like how you completely ignored my arguement but,

Stephen Curry: 36 MPG
Monta Ellis: 41 MPG



look at the difference between curry and ellis its enormous

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-20-2010, 07:13 PM
Not one arguments of mine are false. Step your game up cause I'm styling all over you.

lol you're not styling over anyone.
You're in complete denial and in homer mode.

This was posted by Chronz - Ranking of players with the lowest rate of winshares (+30MPG+500MP)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=per_minute&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2010&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=mp_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=30&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=500&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ws_per_48&order_by_asc=Y

Ellis doesn't bring nothing on the table for the warriors.
He had 1.3 win shares last season.:laugh:


you shouldnt even talk about basketball, you think shawn marion is better than bogut.

Why you edited my original post lol:facepalm:

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 07:47 PM
Not one arguments of mine are false. Step your game up cause I'm styling all over you.

haha, you are losing dude. All the evidence is there. Monta had a really good year in 07-8', as a third option. Since then, he has been horrendous. And you can blame that on anything you want. A great player will be efficient regardless of what surrounds him. I don't even feel the need to debate you anymore, you are talking yourself into a corner and will end up beating yourself.
Everything you have said serves no relevance to your argument. His team sucked? So what? There are plenty of cases of players on crappy teams that have far better efficiency and win shares. Monta had 0, ZERO offensive win shares last season. And his offensive rating over the past 2 years is 99. Due to his inability to get to the line, his high turnover rate, and his utter lack of long distance shooting. He shoots 2/3 of his shots within 10 seconds of the shotclock starting, so he isn't even looking for development in the offense.

I have stated it three times now. Fire Nelson. Get another SF who can defend a couple of positions and score in transition. Then use Curry as your #1 option. Ellis is NOT capable of being an efficient scoring machine. At all.

You have absolutely no prayer at winning any argument in which you push Monta as a good player over the past two seasons. None

Kashmir13579
08-20-2010, 07:54 PM
haha, you are losing dude. All the evidence is there. Monta had a really good year in 07-8', as a third option. Since then, he has been horrendous. And you can blame that on anything you want. A great player will be efficient regardless of what surrounds him. I don't even feel the need to debate you anymore, you are talking yourself into a corner and will end up beating yourself.
Everything you have said serves no relevance to your argument. His team sucked? So what? There are plenty of cases of players on crappy teams that have far better efficiency and win shares. Monta had 0, ZERO offensive win shares last season. And his offensive rating over the past 2 years is 99. Due to his inability to get to the line, his high turnover rate, and his utter lack of long distance shooting. He shoots 2/3 of his shots within 10 seconds of the shotclock starting, so he isn't even looking for development in the offense.

I have stated it three times now. Fire Nelson. Get another SF who can defend a couple of positions and score in transition. Then use Curry as your #1 option. Ellis is NOT capable of being an efficient scoring machine. At all.

You have absolutely no prayer at winning any argument in which you push Monta as a good player over the past two seasons. None

this is what i'm saying. and he gets picked 6th while jamal crawford misses the top ten?! you all need to step your game up. after the top 5 this list is absolutely horrendous

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 07:57 PM
i think a lot of it has to do with the teams he's been on and the players he's been with. his first few seasons with the bulls and knicks, he was a great one on one player; nothing more, nothing less. the bulls at the time were a disgrace and so were the knicks and he basically was a chucker. then larry brown came for that one season. nobody listened to anything larry brown said, not steph marbury, not the knicks front office, not even fans; but jamal crawford was listinening to the HOF coach. he was the only one listening. its my opinion that during his one year stay and NY, larry brown turned a good scorer into a great player. i'm just glad he got to eventually take his skillset to a winning organization. (nothing against my knicks, lmao:D). i also understand there are not too many atlanta fans on PSD and the hawks really get no national media coverage. i wanna go out on a limb here and say that if crawford is still on the bulls or knicks (right now) he would be a lock for the top 5. i think like you said there are the obvious picks for the top 5 and then after that its mostly homers and player fans with little to no knowledge of the game as a whole.

His improvement came from a big spike in his eFG%, which shows maturity in shot selection. The other main thing he has done is systematically toned down his turnovers. He dropped under 10% TO rate for the first time in his career, which means for every 100 posessions he had, he only coughed it up 9.9 times. That is not bad
Everything else stayed the same, so the increase came from maturity pretty much. He had a great year, and he probably will have another good year

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 07:59 PM
he gets a little stat happy at times. i'll give you that. even still, monta shouldnt be in the top 10 let alone #6.

and he is attempting to debate real numbers. Stats tell you what the eye misses many times. And Monta has been such a clear case of pathetic for two seasons, its easy for anyone to see, especially when you lay down the real numbers.

DCSportsIsPain
08-20-2010, 08:04 PM
Yea, not sure what people are voting based upon but Kevin Martin is the best shooter in basketball and being monumentally under-rated here.

Kashmir13579
08-20-2010, 08:07 PM
and he is attempting to debate real numbers. Stats tell you what the eye misses many times. And Monta has been such a clear case of pathetic for two seasons, its easy for anyone to see, especially when you lay down the real numbers.

i know man, i'm definitely not arguing with you when it comes to monta. i just think (sometimes) stats are inconsistent from player to player, team to team, division to division. there are way to many variables. they do show much but at times stats can be deceiving. i think you would agree with me there. with that said, imo, monta is in the same league as a nate robinson (all stats aside). definitely not top ten material.

Iodine
08-20-2010, 08:11 PM
He shoots 2/3 of his shots within 10 seconds of the shotclock starting, so he isn't even looking for development in the offense.


And according to synergy his PPP is .89 which ranks 277 (im sure thats includes about 75-ish scrubs but still is worth noting, and his D PPP is .98 which is 370th in the nba

and what he defended the most (spot up shooting at 21.2% just above the 20.4% of P&R ball handler) he gave up a PPP of 1.05

PPP=points per possession

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 08:36 PM
i know man, i'm definitely not arguing with you when it comes to monta. i just think (sometimes) stats are inconsistent from player to player, team to team, division to division. there are way to many variables. they do show much but at times stats can be deceiving. i think you would agree with me there. with that said, imo, monta is in the same league as a nate robinson (all stats aside). definitely not top ten material.

which is why I don't use espn stats bro. The advanced stats peel all those excuses away, and show you how truly productive a player is. There are countless stats that mean nothing, and can be manipulated to win an argument. But offensive rating, and rates of various stats are plain and simple, and are not variables of anything. Tell me, if player A holds opposing players to a lower shot percentage, less points per posession, and is shown empirically to be better in isolations that player B, where is the argument?

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 08:42 PM
to the poster who was arguing how bad Martin's defense is in a case that Monta should be up there.

Martin rank
Ellis rank

PPP (overall)
Martin- #95
Ellis- #370

Isolations
Martin- #41
Ellis- #201

Pick and Roll, on the ballhandler
Martin- #31
Ellis- #229

Post Up
Martin-#32
Ellis- #116

Spot up
Martin- #53
Ellis- #237

Off screens
Martin- #51
Ellis- #98

and these are individual numbers. They can not be changed by team play, or style of play, or talent around them.
So which one is the pathetic defender here?

SugeKnight
08-20-2010, 08:42 PM
I don't feel like arguing with somebody who didn't watch the games. Monta had a bad statistical year, but if you saw more than 5 warrior games you would know why. At times he got me mad when he turned it over or took ill-advised shots, but i rather have him take a tough shot than see Tolliver miss layup after layup.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 08:51 PM
I don't feel like arguing with somebody who didn't watch the games. Monta had a bad statistical year, but if you saw more than 5 warrior games you would know why. At times he got me mad when he turned it over or took ill-advised shots, but i rather have him take a tough shot than see Tolliver miss layup after layup.

the typical response from a poster who has been beaten. I watched at least 25 Warriors games in the last two years. The reason why Monta has sucked is he is being asked to be a #1 option in a chaotic system. And for a player to be ranked the 6th best SG, you would prefer he not need to be covered up on the defensive end, and would be better than your 3rd option on an 8th seed team.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 08:52 PM
there were around 80 players in the entire NBA who were worse guarding their man that Ellis. And many of them saw about 5 games of action all year

SugeKnight
08-20-2010, 09:04 PM
the typical response from a poster who has been beaten. I watched at least 25 Warriors games in the last two years. The reason why Monta has sucked is he is being asked to be a #1 option in a chaotic system. And for a player to be ranked the 6th best SG, you would prefer he not need to be covered up on the defensive end, and would be better than your 3rd option on an 8th seed team.

No. You are not even reading what I typed. It seems as if everything I say you are putting aside because of what your advanced statistics say. I explained the reason for every advance stat you threw at me, and you are ignoring them. If you consider that a win, then you won.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 09:14 PM
No. You are not even reading what I typed. It seems as if everything I say you are putting aside because of what your advanced statistics say. I explained the reason for every advance stat you threw at me, and you are ignoring them. If you consider that a win, then you won.

there are no reasons needed in a reply for the numbers I am using dude. There just aren't. I can provide countless players from ****** teams that take a crap all over Ellis's efficiency.
The bottom line is this. Ellis has sucked the last two seasons, however you wish to spin it in your brain. There is no debating this man. Its so plain and simple, its not even worth arguing you anymore.
Take care, and pray you get more talent to mask Monta's complete inefficiencies.

SugeKnight
08-20-2010, 09:18 PM
look at the difference between curry and ellis its enormous
Once again, Curry 36 MPG, Monta 41 MPG. I don't get what ur trying to say


lol you're not styling over anyone.
You're in complete denial and in homer mode.

This was posted by Chronz - Ranking of players with the lowest rate of winshares (+30MPG+500MP)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=per_minute&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2010&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=mp_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=30&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=500&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ws_per_48&order_by_asc=Y

Ellis doesn't bring nothing on the table for the warriors.
He had 1.3 win shares last season.:laugh:
:sigh: more meaningless statistics that can all be explained.



Why you edited my original post lol:facepalm:

Cause i was just referencing your name, and that you think Marion is better than Bogut

SugeKnight
08-20-2010, 09:23 PM
there are no reasons needed in a reply for the numbers I am using dude. There just aren't. I can provide countless players from ****** teams that take a crap all over Ellis's efficiency.
The bottom line is this. Ellis has sucked the last two seasons, however you wish to spin it in your brain. There is no debating this man. Its so plain and simple, its not even worth arguing you anymore.
Take care, and pray you get more talent to mask Monta's complete inefficiencies.

Name player on a team that had to play with all d-leaguers and a rookie who had better efficiency than monta.

BosoxPapi61
08-20-2010, 09:24 PM
Lol Monta sucks

DCSportsIsPain
08-20-2010, 09:26 PM
Name player on a team that had to play with all d-leaguers and a rookie who had better efficiency than monta.

Efficiency isn't relative to who you play with.

Avenged
08-20-2010, 09:32 PM
You know what's funny about it all?

That Ellis was actually better during their upset of the Mavs days.

He doesn't do it as a #1 option.

tredigs
08-20-2010, 09:43 PM
You know what's funny about it all?

That Ellis was actually better during their upset of the Mavs days.

He doesn't do it as a #1 option.

That's the bottom line of it all. Terrific 3rd option, but he's been an absolute disruption to our offense over the past couple seasons while trying to take on the Alpha role (not all his fault, Nelly wrongly pushed him into this).

He's also a much more effective player when he plays alongside a bigger point guard who can guard the opposing teams 2. He's too undersized to handle half of them, and Curry can't either. That's another reason why is was much better alongside Baron (a guy like Chauncey would be ideal).

So the underlying point is that in the right scenario, he's one of the best SG's in the league - but he's not effective in his role on the Dubs.

Enemey
08-20-2010, 10:02 PM
I like how you completely ignored my arguement but,

Stephen Curry: 36 MPG
Monta Ellis: 41 MPG


Yes it does. If your playing with D-leaguers you're gonna shoot more, pass less, get stuck more often and have defense focus on you more. That will definitely make a drastic effect on FG%, FGA, TOs, and ASTs




Monta was only on the bench for 6.6 MPG. Those 6 minutes were usually garbage time which makes it obvious why his +/- is bad. Players on bad usually always have bad +/-, so idk why you keep using that stat, because if you watched more than 5 warrior games you would understand what Monta had to deal with this season

I completely agree with you. How many times had Monta played the whole game? Sometimes he never sits out. How many of his teammates were injured last season? I remember when Ronnie Turif( don't know how to spell his last name) was injured and he was forced to play in the 3rd or 4th qaurter because one of the warriors (forgot who) fouled out .

Stephan Curry started off very slow, he got alot better towards the mid season and Monta Elis had to do alot for the Warriors and being Surrounded by D-Leaguers is not helpin. I don't see how Monta Ellis is a chucker when he is a great mid range shooter and can finish well around the rim.

Some people say Kevin Martin is better because Monta Ellis just jacks up shots but its really Martin who chucks up shots. I'd take Monta over Kevin Martin anyday.

Iodine
08-20-2010, 10:17 PM
I completely agree with you. How many times had Monta played the whole game? Sometimes he never sits out. How many of his teammates were injured last season? I remember when Ronnie Turif( don't know how to spell his last name) was injured and he was forced to play in the 3rd or 4th qaurter because one of the warriors (forgot who) fouled out .

Stephan Curry started off very slow, he got alot better towards the mid season and Monta Elis had to do alot for the Warriors and being Surrounded by D-Leaguers is not helpin. I don't see how Monta Ellis is a chucker when he is a great mid range shooter and can finish well around the rim.

Some people say Kevin Martin is better because Monta Ellis just jacks up shots but its really Martin who chucks up shots. I'd take Monta over Kevin Martin anyday.

Because over the last two years he has shot around 45% and has an EFG under 500 during that time.

And of course he accounted for more than 75% of his offensive win shares in one year

tredigs
08-20-2010, 10:24 PM
I completely agree with you. How many times had Monta played the whole game? Sometimes he never sits out. How many of his teammates were injured last season? I remember when Ronnie Turif( don't know how to spell his last name) was injured and he was forced to play in the 3rd or 4th qaurter because one of the warriors (forgot who) fouled out .

Stephan Curry started off very slow, he got alot better towards the mid season and Monta Elis had to do alot for the Warriors and being Surrounded by D-Leaguers is not helpin. I don't see how Monta Ellis is a chucker when he is a great mid range shooter and can finish well around the rim.

Some people say Kevin Martin is better because Monta Ellis just jacks up shots but its really Martin who chucks up shots. I'd take Monta over Kevin Martin anyday.

You don't know what you're talking about.

#1, when Monta does less, the Warriors do more. Our offense always ran better when he was not playing, simply because he's a ****ing "ball hog" and stagnates the offense and turns it into Monta Versus X Team while everyone else sat around and watched. Eventually he got the hint that Curry was an absolute baller so he started to share the rock a bit and actually let Steph run the offensive sets, but still not as much as he needed to.

#2, Martin takes 7 less shots a game than Ellis, but he's the chucker? The dude is one of the most (actually probably the most) efficient shooting guard in the league scoring wise. He gets to the line all day (7 to 10 per game) and hits nearly every one (86%). Beyond that, he's SO MUCH better than Monta defensively (don't let a per-game steal average fool you, the synergy stats that outline ISO defense etc will back me up on this) that there really is no contest between the two.

Oh, and he can drain 'em from outside. The dude's got a career .600ts% (that's unheard of) and he's a "chucker"? You literally could not be any more wrong with that post.

SugeKnight
08-20-2010, 10:54 PM
You don't know what you're talking about.

#1, when Monta does less, the Warriors do more. Our offense always ran better when he was not playing, simply because he's a ****ing "ball hog" and stagnates the offense and turns it into Monta Versus X Team while everyone else sat around and watched. Eventually he got the hint that Curry was an absolute baller so he started to share the rock a bit and actually let Steph run the offensive sets, but still not as much as he needed to.

#2, Martin takes 7 less shots a game than Ellis, but he's the chucker? The dude is one of the most (actually probably the most) efficient shooting guard in the league scoring wise. He gets to the line all day (7 to 10 per game) and hits nearly every one (86%). Beyond that, he's SO MUCH better than Monta defensively (don't let a per-game steal average fool you, the synergy stats that outline ISO defense etc will back me up on this) that there really is no contest between the two.

Oh, and he can drain 'em from outside. The dude's got a career .600ts% (that's unheard of) and he's a "chucker"? You literally could not be any more wrong with that post.

NO!!!! tredigs! how could you? I thought you supported Monta

SugeKnight
08-20-2010, 10:54 PM
I completely agree with you. How many times had Monta played the whole game? Sometimes he never sits out. How many of his teammates were injured last season? I remember when Ronnie Turif( don't know how to spell his last name) was injured and he was forced to play in the 3rd or 4th qaurter because one of the warriors (forgot who) fouled out .

Stephan Curry started off very slow, he got alot better towards the mid season and Monta Elis had to do alot for the Warriors and being Surrounded by D-Leaguers is not helpin. I don't see how Monta Ellis is a chucker when he is a great mid range shooter and can finish well around the rim.

Some people say Kevin Martin is better because Monta Ellis just jacks up shots but its really Martin who chucks up shots. I'd take Monta over Kevin Martin anyday.

:nod:

tredigs
08-20-2010, 10:59 PM
NO!!!! tredigs! how could you? I thought you supported Monta

Dude I love Monta, but only IN THE RIGHT ROLE. I hate the role he's had on the Warriors the past 2 years. He makes us worse man (I understand that he's had to take over the offensive load, but there's a right and a wrong way to do that). I went through this in another post, but he needs a bigger point guard along side him so that he can guard the other teams point, and he also needs to not be the primary ball handler on the floor. He's so dangerous as a #2/3 option, but kills the Dubs offensive flow when he's the Alpha (hopefully this year he can step up his defense and allow Curry + Lee to be the primary options on offense, then I can start liking him on the team again).

But Kevin Martin's just a better overall, the guy is pretty underrated.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 11:26 PM
Suge, I asked Tredigs to get in here and regulate you. Because it was needed. Monta has sucked badly in the role he has played for two years for GS. He has been terrible. Plain terrible. There just isn't debating it.
Monta in the correct role, awesome. But he has sucked badly for two years. Period.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-21-2010, 02:15 AM
Once again, Curry 36 MPG, Monta 41 MPG. I don't get what ur trying to say

LOL 5 minutes makes such a difference

Monta -7.2/+3.8

Curry -3.1/-5.0

Playing 5 more minutes causes ellis to have such a bad stat compred to curry lol.


:sigh: more meaningless statistics that can all be explained.

Yes Win Shares are meaningless:rolleyes:

nanablvd
08-21-2010, 02:30 AM
Kevin Martin has got to be the best player among the list.

What?
08-21-2010, 03:36 AM
Richardson wins then only really bad thing about the list is Monta at 6

What?
08-21-2010, 03:46 AM
Maybe they sadest stat is Monta not getting a single offensive WS while scoring 26ppg

bigsams50
08-21-2010, 04:11 AM
JRICH gets my vote.

Chronz
08-21-2010, 06:55 AM
Yea JRich or Kevin Martin are the best choices since Salmons is a 3 in the next poll

Duncan = Donkey
08-21-2010, 08:45 AM
J Rich easy

alexander_37
08-21-2010, 10:13 AM
Name player on a team that had to play with all d-leaguers and a rookie who had better efficiency than monta.

Dude playing on a ****** team should increase your win shares if anything but monta almost went NEGATIVE meaning he most likely took away potential wins from his team JUST because he was on the floor... and you say he's a top player in the league???

Angel2Maverick
08-21-2010, 10:29 AM
kevin martin

Khalifa21
08-21-2010, 10:38 AM
I still think VC has some in the tank so I went with him.