PDA

View Full Version : Do you have a problem with what SVG said about the Heat?



ManRam
08-19-2010, 06:20 PM
Disclaimer: please don't compare the Heat to the Bulls. I don't care about that, and that's been done thousands of times.

I want to know if you think Stan saying this was bad coaching.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Stan-Van-Gundy-agrees-with-his-brother-loves-th?urn=nba-263604


I don't know what's gotten in to the Van Gundy family, but they seem to be suffering from an acute case of Heat stroke. Miami Heat pun zing, for sure.

First, Jeff spouted off about Miami breaking every conceivable team record in the history of the NBA, which is to be expected because he's paid to have opinions. Now, his brother Stan, the Orlando Magic coach — is refusing to take sides against the family and echoing Jeff's sentiments. Those crazy Van Gundys and their outlandish predictions.

Stan guested on Dan LeBatard's radio talk show earlier this week and he couldn't help but agree with Jeff. Here's the money quote, lovingly transcribed by Sports Radio Interviews:


If I look at what the Bulls did winning 72 games and I look at the Heat roster, I am going to tell you that the Heat roster is better than any roster that Michael Jordan played with with the Bulls. I don't think that people predicting them breaking the win total and being in the 70s and the whole thing, I don't think those are expectations that are out of line based on their roster ... Dwyane Wade(notes) is certainly, in my opinion anyway, as good as he was, is better than Scottie Pippen. Chris Bosh(notes) is better than Toni Kukoc. Mike Miller(notes) is every bit as good a shooter as (John) Paxson or (Steve) Kerr or anybody they put there. Plus, he's 6′8″. If you start going down the list, I don't think there is any question that the roster the Heat have is as talented a roster if not more so as any roster there has ever been in the NBA.

You know what they say — blood is thicker than measured reactions to blockbuster free agent transactions. Or something like that.


I see it as gamesmanship. I see it has him trying to play the underdog role. I see it as him trying to hype it up as David vs. Goliath. I see it as a Lou Holtz method of building up the opponents before every game in order to demand the most from your team.

What motivation is it to tell your team that your opponents suck? Stan is also not an idiot. He's not going to say something like this unless he knows his team will respond the right way. No way do I think he think the team is defeated.


The main reason I asked is because I posed this question in the Magic forum, and a Bulls fan said he should be fired immediately because he clearly has already conceded defeat. So I'm curious for more outside opinions.

Wade>You
08-19-2010, 06:26 PM
The Heat's beat writer for the Sun-Sentinel, Ira Winderman, thinks its all satire on behalf of the Van Gundys.

Blech, here's the quote:

I tend to view the comments more as satire. To me it comes down to this: Does either think that LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan? Or even as good? That's where the debate should truly start.

ManRam
08-19-2010, 06:28 PM
It seems everything I've read thinks it's satire and gamesmanship too. There was a great comparison to what Lou Holtz would do (http://www.sbnation.com/2010/8/18/1630775/stan-van-gundy-heat-bulls-lebron-jordan-wade-pippen)out there too.

He's too smart of a coach. He knows how to motivate his team. He's also not dumb enough to omit Rodman and seriously believe that Miller is better than Kerr. He's hyping them up on purpose.

tredigs
08-19-2010, 06:30 PM
As far as regular season wins, and on paper, he's probably right (and if he's wrong, they're a solid big away from him being right) - whether or not they're a better playoff team (especially with the Lakers having their potential Kryptonite in a healthy Bynum + Gasol tandem) than any of the greats remains to be seen.

On paper, they are ridiculously good, though. I can count on one hand the amount of times two players as good as Wade/Lebron have ever been on the same team, and add to that an elite - near superstar - PF + the best 3pt shooter in the game (who happens to be 6'8") and you have yourself as deadly a core as you could ever dream up. The team is scary good, and Stan is acknowledging that.

That said, the Magic also are one of the teams with a potential kryptonite for them (in D12 obviously), and I'm sure he knows that. But regular season wins wise, as I've said plenty of times, it's tougher to find a scenario where they win less than 65 games than one where they don't.

tredigs
08-19-2010, 06:35 PM
It seems everything I've read thinks it's satire and gamesmanship too. There was a great comparison to what Lou Holtz would do (http://www.sbnation.com/2010/8/18/1630775/stan-van-gundy-heat-bulls-lebron-jordan-wade-pippen)out there too.

He's too smart of a coach. He knows how to motivate his team. He's also not dumb enough to omit Rodman and seriously believe that Miller is better than Kerr. He's hyping them up on purpose.

Omitting Rodman/Grant is dumb, but Bosh was a teams centerpiece - Rodman/Grant were and could never be that type of player. Though Rodman was a defensive specialist of another magnitude, Bosh's defense is far better than people give it credit for (he is not a ****** defender by a long shot).

And Miller is better Kerr man. How is he not?

He might've been being satirical, can't say without hearing the words come out - but he's not exactly wrong, either. Lebron is not Jordan, but he's pretty ****ing close to just as impactful. And Wade can certainly be argued to be a better overall player than Scottie.

Jonathan2323
08-19-2010, 06:37 PM
It seems everything I've read thinks it's satire and gamesmanship too. There was a great comparison to what Lou Holtz would do (http://www.sbnation.com/2010/8/18/1630775/stan-van-gundy-heat-bulls-lebron-jordan-wade-pippen)out there too.

He's too smart of a coach. He knows how to motivate his team. He's also not dumb enough to omit Rodman and seriously believe that Miller is better than Kerr. He's hyping them up on purpose.

He said this on a Miami radio station, i heard it and he sounded serious(It was probably gamenship, like you said). He also said that his brother was crazy for thinking they would break the 33 games streak record. He also mentioned that they have the most talented roster ever. He is not going to trash talk us because that wouldn't be smart. In the end i think he believes what he said some what, but of course he still thinks he can beat the HEAT.

ManRam
08-19-2010, 06:39 PM
Ugh...I really did want to get into comparing the two teams. I was more focused on whether or not people thought he was admitting defeat/throwing his team under the bus or just playing some good head coaching games.

Kerr in 96 shot over 50% from the field, 52% from 3, 93% from the line. He was deadly. That's all he needed to do for the Bulls: hit shots. It was one of the greatest shooting years ever. I respect the **** out of Mike Miller, and his all-around game might be better. But that year, Kerr was unstoppable. It's a toss up, I guess. But Kerr was amazing.

tredigs
08-19-2010, 06:47 PM
Ugh...I really did want to get into comparing the two teams. I was more focused on whether or not people thought he was admitting defeat/throwing his team under the bus or just playing some good head coaching games.

Kerr in 96 shot over 50% from the field, 52% from 3, 93% from the line. He was deadly. That's all he needed to do for the Bulls: hit shots. It was one of the greatest shooting years ever. I respect the **** out of Mike Miller, and his all-around game might be better. But that year, Kerr was unstoppable. It's a toss up, I guess. But Kerr was amazing.

Fair enough - to answer the question, based on what the poster above me said about hearing the radio interview (and hearing what his brother said), I highly doubt he was kidding. But he may indeed have been trying to pump his guys up a bit as well (or he could have just been being brutally honest and not thinking outside the box too much).

As for Kerr/Miller, even shooting wise - Miller shot 48% from three last year (taking 3.2 a game to Kerr's 2.1 in that season), and shot over 50% as well on a higher volume. Playing with all these guys now who are going to demand so much attention, it's tough to imagine those numbers going down.

But I'll stop with that and not compare the teams any further - there's no point and it could get out of hand quick.

ManRam
08-19-2010, 06:50 PM
Fair enough - to answer the question, based on what the poster above me said about hearing the radio interview (and hearing what his brother said), I highly doubt he was kidding. But he may indeed have been trying to pump his guys up a bit as well (or he could have just been being brutally honest and not thinking outside the box too much).

As for Kerr/Miller, even shooting wise - Miller shot 48% from three last year (taking 3.2 a game to Kerr's 2.1 in that season), and shot over 50% as well on a higher volume. Playing with all these guys now who are going to demand so much attention, it's tough to imagine those numbers going down.

But I'll stop with that and not compare the teams any further - there's no point and it could get out of hand quick.

I agree. I'll even back down from that comment. I admittedly went with what the Yahoo blogger wrote and ran with it in terms of Kerr.


I don't think he was joking. Not at all. However, I was very confused when someone said that they would hate if their coach did this, and that SVG should be fired instantly. I think it would have been worse if he came out and slammed the Heat, saying how terrible they'll be and how they'll be lucky to finish in 4th...or something like that. What does that accomplish?

There's ZERO doubt in my mind that his team will take these comments the right way.

Kevj77
08-19-2010, 07:10 PM
Why did he leave out Rodman? A two time DPOY and top rebounder of his time. He led the NBA in rebound seven years in a row at one time. The Bulls also had another DPOY named Jordan and a first team all defense guy in Pippen.

Bulls could light up the scoreboard and lock down other teams. Kerr shot 50% from 3s and Kukoc was a 6th man of the year. No mention of Harper? That Bulls team was so stacked. Heat aren't in that league.

KDM1986
08-19-2010, 07:19 PM
Look bottom line is the Heat will be a good team, but I would never pick them over jordan's bulls. Stupid to say they are a better team. Also lets face it. Their isnt exactly an abundance of great teams in the league right now.

BALLER71
08-19-2010, 07:20 PM
Like Wade>You said, I thought it was a sattire by the Van Gundys but LeBatard spoke to both of them and he said it isn't.
This was said on his radio show, BTW.

JordansBulls
08-19-2010, 07:33 PM
Disclaimer: please don't compare the Heat to the Bulls. I don't care about that, and that's been done thousands of times.

I want to know if you think Stan saying this was bad coaching.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Stan-Van-Gundy-agrees-with-his-brother-loves-th?urn=nba-263604




I see it as gamesmanship. I see it has him trying to play the underdog role. I see it as him trying to hype it up as David vs. Goliath. I see it as a Lou Holtz method of building up the opponents before every game in order to demand the most from your team.

What motivation is it to tell your team that your opponents suck? Stan is also not an idiot. He's not going to say something like this unless he knows his team will respond the right way. No way do I think he think the team is defeated.


The main reason I asked is because I posed this question in the Magic forum, and a Bulls fan said he should be fired immediately because he clearly has already conceded defeat. So I'm curious for more outside opinions.


He wants to motivate his team to say if we beat them, we should be able to beat anyone.

CLASSOF72
08-19-2010, 07:35 PM
It was BS satire just Vangundy trying to say it's not fare and point out how it greatly imbalanced the league. The Heat aint that well put together yet anyway, imo. Maybe by next season, but not this year. There isn't any team in the league that aint going to gun for them in an attemp to prove themselves over the Great Thrice. It will make for a long season and after all they play the Lakeshow twice and that only leaves 8 games to lose in order to blow the wins title.

Slimsim
08-19-2010, 07:57 PM
I have mix feeling about that statement. Something tells me the Stan is Trying to Make Miami Look unbeatable That's basically Motivating Every team to give 100% against Miami. But i do think Stan is a little Intimidated By this team to have to get through Boston and La and now Miami and having Orlando Biggest Signing Be Chris Duhon well we will see. Oh yeah and the Media The medias going to pay attention more to the Miami.

SouthSideRookie
08-19-2010, 08:13 PM
It seems everything I've read thinks it's satire and gamesmanship too. There was a great comparison to what Lou Holtz would do (http://www.sbnation.com/2010/8/18/1630775/stan-van-gundy-heat-bulls-lebron-jordan-wade-pippen)out there too.

He's too smart of a coach. He knows how to motivate his team. He's also not dumb enough to omit Rodman and seriously believe that Miller is better than Kerr. He's hyping them up on purpose.

Exactly this, also when his brother came out with all the exaggerated projections about the Heat was obviously done with the same intentions.

icej
08-19-2010, 08:14 PM
1st of all you must understand that winning 72 games nor 33 games in a row is NOT an NBA title guarantee. Cleveland might understand that more, but the VAN GUNDY's are not DUMB people like some of us here might think - specially when a lot of people obviously wants to listen to them in radios compared to us commenting in forums.

Coach SVG just chose to play safe, he'd rather say "the heat is the most talented team today" and the heat ending losing in the playoff; rather than saying "the heat sucks, and they cant win again'st magic" and end up losing to the heat in the finals.

Notice how he elected not to compare Jordan to any of the heat players? coz he knows that is the catalyst right there. The heat definitely has the better set of players than the 90's bulls but he knows as well as many of us that Jordan even though the heat has his number retired MJ is not playing with the miami trio. And that is a hell big of a difference right there.

rabzouz 96
08-19-2010, 08:16 PM
i dont get why this is such a big deal. the miami heat have a heck of a team with 3 of the best players to play in the nba. they have signed some bench guys. it isnt this far fetched to say that they have the chance to have a very good season. its not like he said the timberwolves are the 2011 champions.

Avenged
08-19-2010, 08:43 PM
I just think he was saying the Heat have a better roster than Jordan's Bulls (literally). Nothing to take out of context.

His team will still perform, and every other team will as well.

When Orlando faces the Heat, they'll perhaps be the most motivated they have ever been simply to garner respect and prove to everyone they can beat the Heat.

His words can go either way depending on how you look at it, but personally, I have no problem with it. It's an opinion, and he's probably right.

Sly Guy
08-19-2010, 08:50 PM
I have no problem with what he said, I just don't think he's right in the majority of his analysis, in this matter and most others.

JasonJohnHorn
08-19-2010, 08:51 PM
It is ridiculous to compare the two teams. You have to compare the entire league at the same time, and consider the chemistry factor. Phil had been coaching that system for almost ten years, and had been coaching Pippen and Jordan together for as long, and also had the best rebounder since Wilt chamberlain and three of the best defenders in the league. I'll take Jordan, Pippen and Rodman over LBJ, Wade and Bosh any day of the week, and I'll take Kukoc in a Bulls uniform over Mike Miller any day of the week.

And SVG should have a little faith in his team. His team won the conference in 09 and still has the most dominant rebounder and interior defender in the league. Is there a reason he doesnt think his team will compete with Miami? If i was an owner, I wouldnt be too happy about the coach of my team saying this in public. It is essentially saying: we arent going to win it all next year, we wont have a chance against Miami. Its like giving up before the season even starts.

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 08:56 PM
Just one comparison out of me. Mike Miller is not the shooter Kerr was. End that argument now.
SVG is pushing satire here. He is simply motivating his own team. No coach who has seen the depths of the NBA playoffs is going to give in to a team that hasn't played a game yet. He is attempting to put into the Heat's heads, that they are the class of the league, go ahead and chill and it will all come. Clever

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 08:57 PM
Why did he leave out Rodman? A two time DPOY and top rebounder of his time. He led the NBA in rebound seven years in a row at one time. The Bulls also had another DPOY named Jordan and a first team all defense guy in Pippen.

Bulls could light up the scoreboard and lock down other teams. Kerr shot 50% from 3s and Kukoc was a 6th man of the year. No mention of Harper? That Bulls team was so stacked. Heat aren't in that league.

because the Heat don't have an equivalent of Rodman

ManRam
08-19-2010, 09:02 PM
Just one comparison out of me. Mike Miller is not the shooter Kerr was. End that argument now.
SVG is pushing satire here. He is simply motivating his own team. No coach who has seen the depths of the NBA playoffs is going to give in to a team that hasn't played a game yet. He is attempting to put into the Heat's heads, that they are the class of the league, go ahead and chill and it will all come. Clever

I agree 100%. I still can't believe people think these comments are fire-worthy. I'm certain his team will respond the right way, and won't feel slighted by this. Stan is a genius...I'm serious. He knows what he's doing.

tredigs
08-19-2010, 11:07 PM
Just one comparison out of me. Mike Miller is not the shooter Kerr was. End that argument now.
SVG is pushing satire here. He is simply motivating his own team. No coach who has seen the depths of the NBA playoffs is going to give in to a team that hasn't played a game yet. He is attempting to put into the Heat's heads, that they are the class of the league, go ahead and chill and it will all come. Clever
Can't do that sorry.

They're pretty close dude, and overall Miller is by far the more impactful/better player. Just shooting wise (the only thing Kerr could contribute to a game), Kerr has a career .593 ts% and .564 eFG% to Miller's .577 ts% and .548 eFG%. Last season, Miller posted a .623 ts% and .596 eFG%.

Adjusted for shot volume, and the quality of players Kerr played alongside to help him get open looks - it becomes even closer (4.7fga/g for Kerr to 10.8 for Miller. 1.8 3pa/g for Kerr to 4.5 for Miller).

Not an open and shot case by a long shot. But Kerr was better at shooting the 1/2 free throw he averaged per game.

The Smurf
08-19-2010, 11:09 PM
I have learned that a lot of my fellow Bulls fans are as sharp as a thimble.

deke173
08-19-2010, 11:38 PM
Why did he leave out Rodman? A two time DPOY and top rebounder of his time. He led the NBA in rebound seven years in a row at one time. The Bulls also had another DPOY named Jordan and a first team all defense guy in Pippen.

Bulls could light up the scoreboard and lock down other teams. Kerr shot 50% from 3s and Kukoc was a 6th man of the year. No mention of Harper? That Bulls team was so stacked. Heat aren't in that league.

Totally agree! People also forget to mention that Mike Miller, Chris Bosh and LeBron James never performed the way the Bulls teams did in the NBA Finals year in and year out. They have no experience. Its totally different hitting clutch shots in regular season games than doing it in the Finals with ice water running through your veins.

HakeemTheDream
08-19-2010, 11:39 PM
Stan Van Gundy was with the Miami Heat for 9 years, Pat Riley did a lot for him so obviously this is Stan Van Gundy's way of showing gratitude. So many people are hating on the heat right now so he's probably just trying to stick up for them (plus he probably doesn't realize how good of a defender Pippen was, Pippen was the ultimate sidekick and was one of the reasons that team had such tremendous synergy, and he's probably a little bitter about losing to Phil Jackson in 2009)

deke173
08-19-2010, 11:39 PM
LeBron sucked in the playoffs against the Boston Celtics and people are going to compare him to Jordan who in the Finals carried his team to victory with the flu? Are you F-ing kidding me? Heat fans are smoking some good ish! Dwayne Wade, LeBum James and Chris "Over-rated" Bosh will never be the Bulls...ever! Please don't ever compare anyone on the Heat with Jordan...ever! LeBron lost that chance when he teamed up like a punk and went to join Wade's team.

rabzouz 96
08-19-2010, 11:42 PM
LeBron sucked in the playoffs against the Boston Celtics and people are going to compare him to Jordan who in the Finals carried his team to victory with the flu? Are you F-ing kidding me? Heat fans are smoking some good ish! Dwayne Wade, LeBum James and Chris "Over-rated" Bosh will never be the Bulls...ever! Please don't ever compare anyone on the Heat with Jordan...ever! LeBron lost that chance when he teamed up like a punk and went to join Wade's team.

jordan had his problems with the pistons back in the day, dont act like he never had a hard time against any team...

deke173
08-19-2010, 11:42 PM
When the last shot of games is being taken by Dwayne Wade, LeBron will turn into Terrell Owens. He's a primadonna and has never taken a backseat to anyone, he wont start now. You watch and see.

deke173
08-19-2010, 11:44 PM
jordan had his problems with the pistons back in the day, dont act like he never had a hard time against any team...

Yeah but he didnt join anyone to beat them finally. He manned up and ended up winning six championships...remember? Everyone is handing over the championship to the Heat and they have done nothing to deserve this praise.

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 11:51 PM
Can't do that sorry.

They're pretty close dude, and overall Miller is by far the more impactful/better player. Just shooting wise (the only thing Kerr could contribute to a game), Kerr has a career .593 ts% and .564 eFG% to Miller's .577 ts% and .548 eFG%. Last season, Miller posted a .623 ts% and .596 eFG%.

Adjusted for shot volume, and the quality of players Kerr played alongside to help him get open looks - it becomes even closer (4.7fga/g for Kerr to 10.8 for Miller. 1.8 3pa/g for Kerr to 4.5 for Miller).

Not an open and shot case by a long shot. But Kerr was better at shooting the 1/2 free throw he averaged per game.

I know you have seen Hollinger's case on shooters, I don't feel the need to post that, unless you need to see it again. Not claiming this is the end all be all of how to rate shooters.
Let's talk release point. Miller is far bigger. Less pressure
Kerr was just a more accurate shooter from the three point line, and there is no debate. He didn't get those numbers from random spikes, and was the best spot up shooter of his generation
At no point did I say Kerr was a better playmaker, player, or more impactful than Miller. Miller can put the ball on the floor, and create, and rebound. Kerr was one dimensional. And that dimension was top 3 ever. Shooting.

Mr Lakeshow
08-19-2010, 11:55 PM
The Heat's beat writer for the Sun-Sentinel, Ira Winderman, thinks its all satire on behalf of the Van Gundys.

Blech, here's the quote:

What a dumb as* quote.
:facepalm:

shizzle09
08-19-2010, 11:56 PM
SVG agreed with the "possibility" of the Heat winning 70+ games while disagreeing with JVG saying they will break the wins streak record of 32. hilarious how they leave that out. He even explained why he felt they could win 70+. whats wrong with this?

Jaji
08-20-2010, 12:00 AM
I don't know that Miami breaks the record this year, but if they fail to win the title, they'll come back the following year with a vengeance and I think they'll have a real good shot at the record then. Much like when Jordan came back for half a year and they lost to Orlando in the 2nd. That left a bad taste in their mouths. The next year: 72 wins. Thinking long term, yes, I honestly believe its possible. They'll have about 5 or 6 cracks at it. So in that regards, I think Stan is right. He's just being a realist IMO. The Heat are one more big away from being ridiculously stacked. But, they may be able to do it with what they currently have. Think about it, LeBron led the Cavs to 66 wins. This team is eons above that team was already. With 5 or 6 years together plus whatever pieces they add in the future... yeah its very possible.

_KB24_
08-20-2010, 12:10 AM
I can understand why Stan said it but I don't agree with a coach going out to say something like that AGAINST a division rival. This is for sure to anger the hell out of his players and prove to be a good thing. But as a player, I would not like my coach to be proclaiming my rival as one of the best teams ever. Guys like Aldeman and Phil would never say that back in the early 00's.

icej
08-20-2010, 02:14 AM
1 - SVG has a good point in saying Miami might break these records BUT he never said he or his magic could NOT beat Miami. - Some of you are reacting childishly, SVG is playing with Miami in a sense it seems like he has played a lot of NBA fans too. NBA is also a mind game specially to coaches.

2 - MILLER comment was a good point also, because shooters FEED on their teams ability to force open shots and the more often teams with a star player or two have a more chance for any shooter to have high percentage shots. He's logic is consistent with the fact that Miami has 3 superstars.

rabzouz 96
08-20-2010, 08:46 AM
Yeah but he didnt join anyone to beat them finally. He manned up and ended up winning six championships...remember? Everyone is handing over the championship to the Heat and they have done nothing to deserve this praise.

thats prolly because he had a well structured team where most core players were around the same age and could develop together, not everybody has the luck of a good team management... remember?
they have signed lbj, bosh, miller, big z, thats not directly nothing, its really all but farfetched to expect them to do well and anybody who says they dont belong in the group of titlecontenders is not in their right mind.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2010, 08:50 AM
Yeah but he didnt join anyone to beat them finally. He manned up and ended up winning six championships...remember? Everyone is handing over the championship to the Heat and they have done nothing to deserve this praise.

Jordan also had a roster and coach around him that allowed him to push through, remember?