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Mile High Champ
08-19-2010, 03:39 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last two years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

SG Rankings DONT FORGET TO VOTE!!

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Manu Ginobili
6) Monta Ellis
7) Ray Allen
8) Stephen Jackson
9)
10)


2009 Off-Season SG Rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Vince Carter
6) Manu Ginobili
7) Ray Allen
8) Kevin Martin
9) Ben Gordon
10) Richard Hamilton

2008 Off-Season SG rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Tracy McGrady
4) Allen Iverson
5) Manu Ginobili
5) Vince Carter
7) Joe Johnson
8) Ray Allen
9) Brandon Roy
10) Kevin Martin

Mile High Champ
08-19-2010, 03:48 PM
It seemed like a good time to close the other poll after Jackson taking home the vast majority of the votes.

So who is number 9. I got Mayo at this point.

Sadds The Gr8
08-19-2010, 03:49 PM
Close between Wince, J-Rich, Jamal, Mayo...I chose Jamal Crawford.

What?
08-19-2010, 03:51 PM
I think Richardson or Mayo for this one but my guess is Mayo going to run away with it by a large margin

Minimal
08-19-2010, 03:54 PM
Jason Richardson

DoJoTheSlasher
08-19-2010, 03:55 PM
where is kevin martin?

Venomous88
08-19-2010, 03:58 PM
I'll take Vince over Mayo today

jimbobjarree
08-19-2010, 03:59 PM
why are there 2 rip hamiltons?

b_russ
08-19-2010, 04:00 PM
Kevin Martin's not on your poll this time.

jimbobjarree
08-19-2010, 04:00 PM
i vote kmart, but he isnt there, and i cant choose between the 2 rips!

ManRam
08-19-2010, 04:01 PM
There were probably two Rips because one was supposed to be Martin. I did add Martin, but I can't delete one of the Rips now.

Chronz
08-19-2010, 04:01 PM
Well since I didnt get to compare Jacko and Ray Ray (A day really isnt enough time) may as well post the comparison here.

First off since alot of you are basing your decision on their defensive contributions I think its the best area to start off with. There seems to be some mixed opinions on just where everyone ranks. To help clear this up lets consider the stats, broken down into 4 categories (Isolation, Post-Ups, Curls, and defending/recovering on spot-up shooters) as well as their overall rating, and LG Ranks.


PTS Per Poss. (Lg Rank)
ISO PostUP Curls Spot-Up OVR:
Capn Jack .86 (177) .88 (149) .84 (78) .89 (81) .86 (95)
Manu .81 (119) 1.05 (263) .72 (29) 1.07 (288) .95 (118)
Ray Ray .92 (232) .89 (157) .88 (95) 1.02 (239) .89 (170)
Vinsanity .89 (202) .62 (6) .82 (65) 1.03 (252) .89 (170)
Mayo .95 (259) .99 (239) .82 (65) 1.01 (231) .95 (318)
Monta .97 (370) .95 (215) .94 (120) 1.05 (269) .98 (370)



A few things to note, the formula doesnt account for expected output. So the #'s will be skewed simply by defending inferior offensive players. That said I chose those 4 aspects of defense because they account for most of a players defensive possessions and because IMO they happen to be the most individually related. PnR Defense is the most defended against sequence but it seems more of a tag-team possession to me, besides if a player is strong in that area it will be reflected in the overall rating anyways. So when looking at these #'s try to ask yourself if any of these guys never defended primary threats. Until synergy or someone else takes the time to factor in the strength of the opposition thats the best we can do.


I think its pretty clear who the best defender is though.

beasted86
08-19-2010, 04:02 PM
I rather have OJ Mayo than Kevin Martin. Martin is possibly the worst SG in the NBA defensively. The stats back it up.

Rip keeps getting injured, I don't feel right voting for him.

DoJoTheSlasher
08-19-2010, 04:02 PM
Kevin Martin easily. He is a top 10 scorer in the NBA. He can't do much else but for a SHOOTING guard, he is next.

Rivera
08-19-2010, 04:05 PM
holly crap a new named emerged - eric gordon havent seen that name on any of the list

i woulda voted him #3 behind kobe n wade!!!!!!!


relax PSD that was a joke

in all seriousness this is between mayo/crawford/kevin martin/rip/n prolly eric gordon

i wanna pick mayo soo bad right here BUT if Eric Gordon survived Team USA cuts over OJ Mayo doesnt that make Eric Gordon a better basketball player than OJ :confused:

jammal crawford had a crazy season but dudes a straight jacker....fresh off the bench ready to shoot! rip is a complete player n kevin martin is under rated


im having a hard time deciding OJ has my heart but eric gordon has my brain


hmmmm....as the great HOV said i drove by the fork in the road and went straight SO THE PICK IS RIP!!!!

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-19-2010, 04:13 PM
I voted for J-Rich, cause he lit it up in the playoffs

I thought he will suck against the lakers in WCF, but he didn't and he stepped up and thats why he gets my vote.

OJ mayo is unproven right now and crawford is a chucker

xbrackattackx
08-19-2010, 04:16 PM
Jason Richardson

x2

YankeesNets11
08-19-2010, 04:19 PM
OJ Mayo

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 04:19 PM
Martin for me

thekmp211
08-19-2010, 04:37 PM
man oh man, oj mayo? i like him but there are better current players on the list.

all of these guys have weaknesses. i'll take the uber efficient and explosive k-mart. think he'll do big things this year with a healthy houson.

Shady66
08-19-2010, 04:39 PM
J rich for sure. He had a much better year then Carter, and Mayo has potential isnt quite there yet.

YoungOne
08-19-2010, 04:51 PM
easily kevin martin when healthy

Switch
08-19-2010, 05:24 PM
OJ Mayo

td0tsfinest
08-19-2010, 05:24 PM
I went with Vince.

mvb815
08-19-2010, 05:26 PM
no love for j-rich? he shoulda been voted up by now

tredigs
08-19-2010, 05:38 PM
Well since I didnt get to compare Jacko and Ray Ray (A day really isnt enough time) may as well post the comparison here.

First off since alot of you are basing your decision on their defensive contributions I think its the best area to start off with. There seems to be some mixed opinions on just where everyone ranks. To help clear this up lets consider the stats, broken down into 4 categories (Isolation, Post-Ups, Curls, and defending/recovering on spot-up shooters) as well as their overall rating, and LG Ranks.


PTS Per Poss. (Lg Rank)
ISO PostUP Curls Spot-Up OVR:
Capn Jack .86 (177) .88 (149) .84 (78) .89 (81) .86 (95)
Manu .81 (119) 1.05 (263) .72 (29) 1.07 (288) .95 (118)
Ray Ray .92 (232) .89 (157) .88 (95) 1.02 (239) .89 (170)
Vinsanity .89 (202) .62 (6) .82 (65) 1.03 (252) .89 (170)
Mayo .95 (259) .99 (239) .82 (65) 1.01 (231) .95 (318)
Monta .97 (370) .95 (215) .94 (120) 1.05 (269) .98 (370)



A few things to note, the formula doesnt account for expected output. So the #'s will be skewed simply by defending inferior offensive players. That said I chose those 4 aspects of defense because they account for most of a players defensive possessions and because IMO they happen to be the most individually related. PnR Defense is the most defended against sequence but it seems more of a tag-team possession to me, besides if a player is strong in that area it will be reflected in the overall rating anyways. So when looking at these #'s try to ask yourself if any of these guys never defended primary threats. Until synergy or someone else takes the time to factor in the strength of the opposition thats the best we can do.


I think its pretty clear who the best defender is though.

Didn't have the numbers via synergy on hand, but this is exactly what I was alluding to when Corey was comparing O.J. Mayo to him (in a favorable light to Mayo).

If you have time, can you include Salmons' defensive numbers in there. I would choose him over Mayo in a heartbeat, overall.

ManRam
08-19-2010, 05:39 PM
I voted for Salmons because I felt like it ;)

SA5195
08-19-2010, 05:43 PM
OJ Mayo

Jays Claw
08-19-2010, 05:43 PM
O.J Mayo has my vote.

smith&wesson
08-19-2010, 05:58 PM
kmart

Chronz
08-19-2010, 06:02 PM
Didn't have the numbers via synergy on hand, but this is exactly what I was alluding to when Corey was comparing O.J. Mayo to him (in a favorable light to Mayo).

If you have time, can you include Salmons' defensive numbers in there. I would choose him over Mayo in a heartbeat, overall.


PTS Per Poss. (Lg Rank)
ISO PostUP Curls Spot-Up OVR:

Salmons .77 (83) .84 (114) .84 (78) .91 (109) .90 (204)

Mayo .95 (259) .99 (239) .82 (65) 1.01 (231) .95 (318)

Monta .97 (370) .95 (215) .94 (120) 1.05 (269) .98 (370)



Salmons ranks as the 2nd best ISO defender in both groups and pretty much among the best in the other categories as well. Hes definitely better than those 2 but his poor PnR Defense (Mayo ranks higher with Z-Bo as his helper) and off the ball cuts hurt his overall.

Corey
08-19-2010, 06:03 PM
This should be O.J. Mayo by a longshot.

Chronz
08-19-2010, 06:06 PM
This should be O.J. Mayo by a longshot.

What does he do better than Salmons? Literally I dont think he does a thing aside from defend the PnR better.

JPHX
08-19-2010, 06:10 PM
Should be J-rich. He not only had a great regular season, but lit it up in the playoffs where games really matter. Mayo is not there yet, and Kevin Martin still hasnt blown me away since coming back from injury.

Baller1
08-19-2010, 06:10 PM
Vince Carter.

Lloyd Christmas
08-19-2010, 06:14 PM
Kevin Martin. This is where it gets tough for me. Everyone seems about even. It will be interesting to see which way the polls go.

tredigs
08-19-2010, 06:21 PM
This should be O.J. Mayo by a longshot.

Explain? I definitely disagree, and would take Salmons over him 10/10 times.
Some "82 games" production stats to take a look at:

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910MIL.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910MIL1.HTM<Milwaukee/Salmons

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910MEM.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910MEM1.HTM<Memphis/Mayo




All things considered, it's pretty clear that Salmons is a far better player than Mayo.

Thanks for the synergy stats Chronz.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-19-2010, 06:23 PM
PTS Per Poss. (Lg Rank)
ISO PostUP Curls Spot-Up OVR:

Salmons .77 (83) .84 (114) .84 (78) .91 (109) .90 (204)

Mayo .95 (259) .99 (239) .82 (65) 1.01 (231) .95 (318)

Monta .97 (370) .95 (215) .94 (120) 1.05 (269) .98 (370)



Salmons ranks as the 2nd best ISO defender in both groups and pretty much among the best in the other categories as well. Hes definitely better than those 2 but his poor PnR Defense (Mayo ranks higher with Z-Bo as his helper) and off the ball cuts hurt his overall.

proves my point that mayo is overrated

tredigs
08-19-2010, 06:53 PM
proves my point that mayo is overrated

He really is. People called me crazy when I actually defended the Warriors management for not taking the Grizzlies offer of Mayo + Thabeet for Monta Ellis (because I know what a capable player Monta is when he is not the #1 - and so does Memphis and GS apparently), but it was the right decision. Even as a shared 2nd/3rd/4th option, he doesn't help them win. If he had a bigger role on a team, it would only be worse.

Niro
08-19-2010, 07:28 PM
give me j-rich

greg_ory_2005
08-19-2010, 07:32 PM
I pick Martin. He's sooo cute.

masalex1205
08-19-2010, 07:48 PM
Still can't get over Monta Ellis being #6, I'm just going to sit the rest of these polls out

IversonIsKrazy
08-19-2010, 07:49 PM
Vince: Is done, his game is over imo, hes just a spot up shooter now.
Crawford: Had his best season, but is just a jacker.
J-Rich: Product of the Nash-Amare pick and roll
K-Mart: Has horrendous D. And has just been a non-efficent shooter since his injury.
Mayo: Solid. Has a great shot, but would want to see him take it to the basket more often.
Salmons: He has played good for half the season for the past 3 years. First half he sucks, then second half hes great. Alright shooter, alright offense not so great, not so athletic, but good D.
Rip: Gets my pick. He was injured last year, which is why he played with low percentages. He was injured, also had to adjust with-out a true PG. Imo, he can still fill up the basket like he used to. He gets my pick.

Imo: Rip > Mayo > Salmons

Duncan = Donkey
08-19-2010, 08:28 PM
lol, OJ Mayo......wow.

Ill take J Rich any day of the week. Did people see this guy 2nd half of last year and during the playoffs?

Duncan = Donkey
08-19-2010, 08:33 PM
Vince: Is done, his game is over imo, hes just a spot up shooter now.
Crawford: Had his best season, but is just a jacker.
J-Rich: :confused:
K-Mart: Has horrendous D. And has just been a non-efficent shooter since his injury.
Mayo: Solid. Has a great shot, but would want to see him take it to the basket more often.
Salmons: He has played good for half the season for the past 3 years. First half he sucks, then second half hes great. Alright shooter, alright offense not so great, not so athletic, but good D.
Rip: Gets my pick. He was injured last year, which is why he played with low percentages. He was injured, also had to adjust with-out a true PG. Imo, he can still fill up the basket like he used to. He gets my pick.

Imo: Rip > Mayo > Salmons

So what about the season when he averged 23 and 6 and took the warriors to the playoffs and beat the Mavs? Who was he a product of then?

Calling him a product of Nash is just ridiclious.

Kakaroach
08-19-2010, 09:04 PM
I like Jamal Crawford a lot, tempted to go for him here but then again he is just a 6th man. Jason Richardson and K-Mart are my 2 other choices but J-Rich has shown it on a winning team so my vote goes to him.

carlo4444
08-19-2010, 09:16 PM
jamal is nice same with vince....but i voted martin

pebloemer
08-19-2010, 09:23 PM
Well since I didnt get to compare Jacko and Ray Ray (A day really isnt enough time) may as well post the comparison here.

First off since alot of you are basing your decision on their defensive contributions I think its the best area to start off with. There seems to be some mixed opinions on just where everyone ranks. To help clear this up lets consider the stats, broken down into 4 categories (Isolation, Post-Ups, Curls, and defending/recovering on spot-up shooters) as well as their overall rating, and LG Ranks.


PTS Per Poss. (Lg Rank)
ISO PostUP Curls Spot-Up OVR:
Capn Jack .86 (177) .88 (149) .84 (78) .89 (81) .86 (95)
Manu .81 (119) 1.05 (263) .72 (29) 1.07 (288) .95 (118)
Ray Ray .92 (232) .89 (157) .88 (95) 1.02 (239) .89 (170)
Vinsanity .89 (202) .62 (6) .82 (65) 1.03 (252) .89 (170)
Mayo .95 (259) .99 (239) .82 (65) 1.01 (231) .95 (318)
Monta .97 (370) .95 (215) .94 (120) 1.05 (269) .98 (370)



A few things to note, the formula doesnt account for expected output. So the #'s will be skewed simply by defending inferior offensive players. That said I chose those 4 aspects of defense because they account for most of a players defensive possessions and because IMO they happen to be the most individually related. PnR Defense is the most defended against sequence but it seems more of a tag-team possession to me, besides if a player is strong in that area it will be reflected in the overall rating anyways. So when looking at these #'s try to ask yourself if any of these guys never defended primary threats. Until synergy or someone else takes the time to factor in the strength of the opposition thats the best we can do.


I think its pretty clear who the best defender is though.

Thanks for posting.

I'm curious whether these numbers take into account the teammates around these players though. For example would Dwight Howard improve these stats for his teammates as he is able to bail out teammates when they get blown by and he forces his opponents to hesitate on driving more?

Would factors like that make much difference to the statistics?

Ugerother
08-19-2010, 09:40 PM
wheres jr smith at? he deserves 9th in my opinion

dre1990
08-19-2010, 09:47 PM
Rip

arkanian215
08-19-2010, 10:23 PM
lol OJ Mayo

Ebbs
08-19-2010, 10:25 PM
Give me Mayo :drool:

SugeKnight
08-19-2010, 10:27 PM
Kmart-Mayo-Jrich are all very close here. vote mayo

John Walls Era
08-19-2010, 10:43 PM
Kmart - Crawford - JRich are close but went with KMart. Isn't Mayo playing PG this year?

NBA-GMaster
08-19-2010, 10:44 PM
i voted for martin..

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 10:44 PM
how is Mayo winning this? Seriously

Iodine
08-19-2010, 10:49 PM
how is Mayo winning this? Seriously

I saw that to and got a what the hell.......

I would go statistical on this but seriously Mayo is flat out not not one of the best ten shooting guards in the NBA, let alone 9th

tredigs
08-19-2010, 10:51 PM
how is Mayo winning this? Seriously

This is why we need a stats forum. People see his ESPN highlights, don't watch his actual games, and don't realize that he's not a very good player. He's an above average shooter who does literally nothing else well - and is a **** defender. This isn't 2006 and he's not in high school, get over Mayo fellas.

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 10:56 PM
This is why we need a stats forum. People see his ESPN highlights, don't watch his actual games, and don't realize that he's not a very good player. He's an above average shooter who does literally nothing else well - and is a **** defender. This isn't 2006 and he's not in high school, get over Mayo fellas.

I would love a stats forum. But then you get, "You don't watch every game of ___ player, you don't know crap", or, "Stats don't tell you anything. I grew up playing basketball!"

But I would love that forum for the single reason it could educate many run of the mill fans. Not calling myself this or that, but when you start to understand how to view real numbers, you can then translate that into what you are watching, and gain a better understanding of what you are watching

BTW, Mayo actually regressed in year 2 peeps. He is a good shooter who doesn't do much else. At all

Avenged
08-19-2010, 10:59 PM
I said in another of these threads Mayo was borderline top 10 if not less.

Glad I'm not alone, but then again I'm a moron. ;)

Iodine
08-19-2010, 11:04 PM
I said in another of these threads Mayo was borderline top 10 if not less.

Glad I'm not alone, but then again I'm a moron. ;)
Well you do have one of radi's sigs :p

But yeah Mayo's backpedaling in year two was bad, he got murdered on Spot up shooting and Isolation plays

iFYouSeekAmy
08-19-2010, 11:18 PM
Wow @ Mayo.

He's just a mediocre shooter.. why not have Anthony Morrow on that list. He's a better shooter than all of these players. :(

In all seriousness, it has to be Salmons or J-rich.

King P
08-19-2010, 11:18 PM
Vince Carter

alexander_37
08-19-2010, 11:33 PM
Rofl so I decide to give psd another chance and i come back to see Monta Ellis ranked 6th best SG in the NBA????? :facepalm:

Kevin Martin is one of the best scorers and possibly THE most efficient scorer in the NBA his defense is pretty bad but not as bad as everyone says. id put him at 8 possibly 7th over Ray Allen.

tredigs
08-20-2010, 01:08 AM
Rofl so I decide to give psd another chance and i come back to see Monta Ellis ranked 6th best SG in the NBA????? :facepalm:

Kevin Martin is one of the best scorers and possibly THE most efficient scorer in the NBA his defense is pretty bad but not as bad as everyone says. id put him at 8 possibly 7th over Ray Allen.

He doesn't get blocks or steals, but Martin's a pretty damn good on-ball defender. You almost never see that guy get lit up by an opposing SG. Wins the matchup night in/night out. He's ten fold better than Mayo, and Ellis was closer to the 6th slot in '06 as the 3rd option than he is now.

Ovratd1up
08-20-2010, 01:29 AM
Rofl so I decide to give psd another chance

Lesson learned?

Antipod
08-20-2010, 01:52 AM
O.J. Mayo - young blood FTW!

Iodine
08-20-2010, 03:05 AM
O.J. Mayo - young blood FTW!

So because he is young he is good?:eyebrow:

Blatche must be the best PF in the game then (waits for tre to see that)

Antipod
08-20-2010, 07:41 AM
^^^ I think he`s the best from this rest; and so do a "few" more ppl:rolleyes:

alexander_37
08-20-2010, 02:21 PM
^^^ I think he`s the best from this rest; and so do a "few" more ppl:rolleyes:

The NBA's newest star center look at that combination of low center of gravity and youth.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/12_01/babyCAMERA_468x378.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-499925/Obese-8-months-baby-tips-scales-3-stone.html&usg=__QIyfUBKlHr5lxeY8dIGRYXa_r08=&h=378&w=468&sz=25&hl=en&start=15&zoom=1&tbnid=2SdOMUdx7Ko9zM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=153&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbaby%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfi refox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D577%26tbs%3Disch: 10%2C342&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=229&ei=dMduTMTTCY-0ngeMvcTbBw&oei=YMduTOW7BYiHnQePqJWkDQ&esq=5&page=2&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:15&tx=84&ty=44&biw=1024&bih=577

The Raven
08-20-2010, 04:58 PM
not a bad choice at 9