PDA

View Full Version : #8 SG in the NBA? (Volume 3 Edition)



Mile High Champ
08-19-2010, 09:45 AM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last two years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

SG Rankings DONT FORGET TO VOTE!!

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Manu Ginobili
6) Monta Ellis
7) Ray Allen
8)
9)
10)


2009 Off-Season SG Rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Vince Carter
6) Manu Ginobili
7) Ray Allen
8) Kevin Martin
9) Ben Gordon
10) Richard Hamilton

2008 Off-Season SG rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Tracy McGrady
4) Allen Iverson
5) Manu Ginobili
5) Vince Carter
7) Joe Johnson
8) Ray Allen
9) Brandon Roy
10) Kevin Martin

Mile High Champ
08-19-2010, 09:48 AM
I really do think jackson got screwed this time around. He is a much better all around player than Allen. The things that Allen does well are all parts of his game that are starting to slip..

Minimal
08-19-2010, 09:49 AM
Steph Jackson for sure, he should have been higher

black1605
08-19-2010, 09:56 AM
Stack Jack.

ManRam
08-19-2010, 10:00 AM
Jackson is the right fit here. 8 is spot on for him.

The Miami Cheat
08-19-2010, 10:02 AM
capt jack

DoJoTheSlasher
08-19-2010, 10:08 AM
Give me Richardson, Martin, Crawford, Mayo and maybe Hamilton over Carter.

Jackson gets the vote here.

Brooklyn Mets
08-19-2010, 10:17 AM
Mayo

BOSTON617
08-19-2010, 10:26 AM
i like mayo then jack then j-rich

Avenged
08-19-2010, 10:29 AM
This list is all messed up now..

Stephen Jackson again.

davids22
08-19-2010, 10:39 AM
I don't understand why John Salmons hasn't even been an option in these polls, even as far down as #8. I know he has the size and can play SF, but he's a SG on the Bucks, and averaged 20ppg with the Bucks and was a key part of their success. But washed up Vince and KEVIN MARTIN are on the poll?

sixers247
08-19-2010, 10:39 AM
Jack then J rich then Mayo

pebloemer
08-19-2010, 10:41 AM
This list is all messed up now..

Stephen Jackson again.

Probably isn't perfect for anyone :).

Nothing absolute, just a large body of fan's democratic consensus.

Jackson for the third straight time (although I don't mind Allen ahead of him - close one there).

JamaicanYouth
08-19-2010, 10:43 AM
no love for kevin martin? Martin>Jackson IMO

pebloemer
08-19-2010, 10:44 AM
I don't understand why John Salmons hasn't even been an option in these polls, even as far down as #8. I know he has the size and can play SF, but he's a SG on the Bucks, and averaged 20ppg with the Bucks and was a key part of their success. But washed up Vince and KEVIN MARTIN are on the poll?

I'm pretty sure Mile High is using one consistent source for player positions. Salmons may be listed as SF on that source. Since so many players play different positions throughout their careers, there will be some mixed opinions about who is in what position category.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-19-2010, 10:58 AM
Sjax

Antipod
08-19-2010, 11:20 AM
Now Jacks wins this for sure !!!
Anyway, he should`ve been at least 2 positions higher

davids22
08-19-2010, 11:21 AM
I'm pretty sure Mile High is using one consistent source for player positions. Salmons may be listed as SF on that source. Since so many players play different positions throughout their careers, there will be some mixed opinions about who is in what position category.

Ahh, well that sucks. Salmons will finish lower at SF then he would have at SG for sure.

xbrackattackx
08-19-2010, 11:27 AM
My Vote J rich the 3rd day in a row. When He has a better season then half of these guys ahead of him I am gonna giggle.

Kakaroach
08-19-2010, 11:33 AM
S-Jax for sure, he got shafted dropping all the way down to 8. And I don't know why everyone likes Mayo so much.

Niro
08-19-2010, 11:33 AM
jackson once again

Baller1
08-19-2010, 11:35 AM
I can't believe Monta is at #6. Whatever.

Jackson.

JakeDelbreezy
08-19-2010, 11:36 AM
Captn Jack

Bubba17
08-19-2010, 11:36 AM
SJax..he should have been higher

Corey
08-19-2010, 12:44 PM
S-Jax for sure, he got shafted dropping all the way down to 8. And I don't know why everyone likes Mayo so much.

Well, let me educate you.

Mayo:
17.5 points per game while attempting 14.5 shots per game.
4 Rebounds. 3 Assists.
46% from the field. 38% from 3pt.
eFG% -> 52%...
2.5 Turnovers
True Shooting: 55%

Jackson:
21 points per game while attempting 17.5 shots per game.
4 Rebounds. 3 Assists.
42% from the field. 33% from 3pt.
eFG% -> 47%
2.8 Turnovers
True shooting: 52%



So let me get this straight - You don't like Mayo, yet he has the SAME stats, as well as BETTER stats than Jackson in everything except points per game?

He scores a few less points per game, on less shot attempts. Give him the three more shots, and their scoring numbers would be identical...with Mayo shooting higher percentages, especially from deep.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, Mayo is a better player.

ManRam
08-19-2010, 12:50 PM
I think the Mayo/Jackson argument is definitely very close. I do think Jackson's defense, and his ability to be a team leader gives him the edge...despite the offensive stats. I don't know if Mayo could be a #1 option on offense like Jackson can be (regardless of how good Jackson is as the #1 option).

Corey
08-19-2010, 12:52 PM
I think the Mayo/Jackson argument is definitely very close. I do think Jackson's defense, and his ability to be a team leader gives him the edge...despite the offensive stats. I don't know if Mayo could be a #1 option on offense like Jackson can be (regardless of how good Jackson is as the #1 option).

What makes you say the part about the #1 options? Every possible type of shooting percentage is 5 percentage points higher than Jackson. He's already a more consistent and versatile scorer in terms of where he can shoot on the floor.

And sure, Jackson plays good defense against some (yes, SOME) top guys, but he also lets very mediocre players go off on him.

dhopisthename
08-19-2010, 12:58 PM
this one doesn't appear to be even close, which I figured since the last one was so close

Jays Claw
08-19-2010, 12:58 PM
Stephen Jackson, easily.

Klivlend
08-19-2010, 12:59 PM
Why are people voting for Vince and Rip? Still am surprised to see Monta at 6

Steelers23_06
08-19-2010, 01:09 PM
i like mayo then jack then j-rich

agreed

ThUnDeR HaWk
08-19-2010, 01:09 PM
8) Stephen Jackson
9) Jason Richardson
10) OJ Mayo

jackson means so much more to the bobcats than mayo does to the grizzlies. J-Rich lit it up last year, and should have a great year wth the suns.

Rivera
08-19-2010, 01:29 PM
every1 needs to get over monta at #6

the ppl voted and they voted for monta get over it already




mayo/jackson.....even though IMO martin and rip hamiltion r gettin screwed just by pepole not talkin abt them martin was a 24ppg scorer on the kings when he was healthy n rip is consisten year in and year out if rip woulda had a decent playoff run he would deffiantly be the pick here


but he didnt captn jack means more to the bobcats than oj mayo does to the grizzlies......but OJ Mayo is the better player IMO dude can flat out ball an OJ has the potential to have a better season than captn jack this upcomin season

gotta go with OJ Ketchup and Mayo!

Lloyd Christmas
08-19-2010, 01:37 PM
Jackson. Mayo might have a better offensive game by a little, but Jackson's D is what gives him my vote.

NBA-GMaster
08-19-2010, 01:38 PM
voted for capt. jack AGAIN!! "Mayo or Martin for no. 9".. Hmmmmmm..

Corey
08-19-2010, 01:43 PM
Nice, in typical NBA forum fashion -- everyone ignores a post with statistics.

Lake_Show2416
08-19-2010, 02:07 PM
showing some love for Rip Hamilton

Switch
08-19-2010, 02:07 PM
I voted Mayo. Very debatable between Mayo and Jackson.

xbrackattackx
08-19-2010, 02:09 PM
Nice, in typical NBA forum fashion -- everyone ignores a post with statistics.

And you didn't think that was gonna happen?

Corey
08-19-2010, 02:11 PM
And you didn't think that was gonna happen?

Good point :laugh2:

ManRam
08-19-2010, 02:19 PM
What makes you say the part about the #1 options? Every possible type of shooting percentage is 5 percentage points higher than Jackson. He's already a more consistent and versatile scorer in terms of where he can shoot on the floor.

And sure, Jackson plays good defense against some (yes, SOME) top guys, but he also lets very mediocre players go off on him.

Jackson plays on the most offensively challenged team in the league. Without him, they couldn't score 80+ points a game. He really is the only guy who can/could consistently create his own offense. Mayo, on the other hand, had a bunch of other guys to relieve him of some of the pressure.

When we played Charlotte in the first round, our defense was mostly focused on stopping Jackson. He was really the only threat they had (Wallace is good, but not great at creating for himself).

I SLAMMED Jax last round because of his inefficiency, and it really does bother me...but I don't think Mayo would do any better at all.

It's a judgement call. You can look at the stats (as I did last round, and now I'm seemingly flip-flopping to an extent) but they don't tell the whole story. Jackson passes the eye-test. He reminds me of a Brandon Jennings in a sense: his efficiency is questionable, but his impact is not. Put Mayo on a team where he's their best offensive weapon (he's arguably Memphis' 4th best, 3rd at worst) and I don't see him leading a team as well as Jax does.

xbrackattackx
08-19-2010, 02:23 PM
Jackson plays on the most offensively challenged team in the league. Without him, they couldn't score 80+ points a game. He really is the only guy who can/could consistently create his own offense. Mayo, on the other hand, had a bunch of other guys to relieve him of some of the pressure.

When we played Charlotte in the first round, our defense was mostly focused on stopping Jackson. He was really the only threat they had (Wallace is good, but not great at creating for himself).

I SLAMMED Jax last round because of his inefficiency, and it really does bother me...but I don't think Mayo would do any better at all.

It's a judgement call. You can look at the stats (as I did last round, and now I'm seemingly flip-flopping to an extent) but they don't tell the whole story. Jackson passes the eye-test. He reminds me of a Brandon Jennings in a sense: his efficiency is questionable, but his impact is not. Put Mayo on a team where he's their best offensive weapon (he's arguably Memphis' 4th best, 3rd at worst) and I don't see him leading a team as well as Jax does.

I knew it was BS you leaving, You been on just as much ;)

tredigs
08-19-2010, 02:50 PM
Well, let me educate you.

Mayo:
17.5 points per game while attempting 14.5 shots per game.
4 Rebounds. 3 Assists.
46% from the field. 38% from 3pt.
eFG% -> 52%...
2.5 Turnovers
True Shooting: 55%

Jackson:
21 points per game while attempting 17.5 shots per game.
4 Rebounds. 3 Assists.
42% from the field. 33% from 3pt.
eFG% -> 47%
2.8 Turnovers
True shooting: 52%



So let me get this straight - You don't like Mayo, yet he has the SAME stats, as well as BETTER stats than Jackson in everything except points per game?

He scores a few less points per game, on less shot attempts. Give him the three more shots, and their scoring numbers would be identical...with Mayo shooting higher percentages, especially from deep.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, Mayo is a better player.

Omitting defense all together? Mayo also stagnates an offense, there's a reason why that team has been doing everything in its power to get rid of him for the past year (going as far as to offer him + Thabeet for Monta Ellis - who they realize is a much better player when given the proper role - See: 2007). Simply put, Mayo does not make a team better - and the numbers support that. Jackson's entrance to Charlotte immediately turned that team around and made them a force in the east.

I'd like to vote for the Milwaukee Bucks shooting guard here, by the way. And could've argued him over the last 2 spots, actually. Seriously, where is John Salmons? That guy can flat out shut down an opposing teams SG, shoots well and has the ability to turn a middle of the road team to a seriously tough squad (they went what, 16-2 immediately after Salmons came to town?).

Corey
08-19-2010, 02:56 PM
Jackson plays on the most offensively challenged team in the league. Without him, they couldn't score 80+ points a game. He really is the only guy who can/could consistently create his own offense. Mayo, on the other hand, had a bunch of other guys to relieve him of some of the pressure.

When we played Charlotte in the first round, our defense was mostly focused on stopping Jackson. He was really the only threat they had (Wallace is good, but not great at creating for himself).

I SLAMMED Jax last round because of his inefficiency, and it really does bother me...but I don't think Mayo would do any better at all.

It's a judgement call. You can look at the stats (as I did last round, and now I'm seemingly flip-flopping to an extent) but they don't tell the whole story. Jackson passes the eye-test. He reminds me of a Brandon Jennings in a sense: his efficiency is questionable, but his impact is not. Put Mayo on a team where he's their best offensive weapon (he's arguably Memphis' 4th best, 3rd at worst) and I don't see him leading a team as well as Jax does.

I just don't see the logic. I understand what you're saying -- that you have to adjust judgment based on the fact that Jackson is the #1 option on his team, but I really don't see how that matters.

Saying Mayo is Memphis' 3rd option is a bit off as well. The offense runs through Mayo, and every Grizz fan will tell you that Gay is an absolute chucker. Gasol is emerging, yes...and he's showing that he's capable of carrying the workload in the post -- but Mayo is their most consistent and efficient scorer.

Like I said, he's averaging 3 less shots per game than Jackson, while putting up much better percentages across the board. Give him those 3 shots, and their PPG would be identical.

I just hate not giving a player credit because he's on a better team with more options. It's like saying Rondo's only good because he has the Big 3, or that Pierce's scoring has dropped off since the big-three era when in reality he's playing the best offensive basketball of his career.

tredigs
08-19-2010, 02:59 PM
Nice, in typical NBA forum fashion -- everyone ignores a post with statistics.

I like stats as much as anyone, but you have to be able to put them in context. Synergy, my friend. And you can't just ignore half of the game (I'm looking at you, defense) and expect people to bow to a players higher ts% as if it's the be all of a debate.

Corey
08-19-2010, 03:06 PM
Omitting defense all together? Mayo also stagnates an offense, there's a reason why that team has been doing everything in its power to get rid of him for the past year (going as far as to offer him + Thabeet for Monta Ellis - who they realize is a much better player when given the proper role - See: 2007). Simply put, Mayo does not make a team better - and the numbers support that. Jackson's entrance to Charlotte immediately turned that team around and made them a force in the east.

Omitting completely? No. What stats do you want me to list, though? There aren't many for defense.

dRTG, a rating that estimates points allowed per 100 possessions lists Mayo at about a 112 last season, while Jackson's around a 107. Not that big of a difference, though team defense plays a role.

I'd list defensive winshares, but that's a stat that relies far too much on the team.

Steals isn't a stat that effectively shows defense, but they are withing .4 of each other in that category as well.

If you'd like to go through and compare how much Dwyane Wade, Kobe, Ray Allen, Joe Johnson, VC, Monta and Manu score against Mayo as compared to Jackson...Be my guest.



Edit: Closed per request of the OP. Stephen Jackson wins!

ManRam
08-19-2010, 03:15 PM
I just don't see the logic. I understand what you're saying -- that you have to adjust judgment based on the fact that Jackson is the #1 option on his team, but I really don't see how that matters.

Saying Mayo is Memphis' 3rd option is a bit off as well. The offense runs through Mayo, and every Grizz fan will tell you that Gay is an absolute chucker. Gasol is emerging, yes...and he's showing that he's capable of carrying the workload in the post -- but Mayo is their most consistent and efficient scorer.

Like I said, he's averaging 3 less shots per game than Jackson, while putting up much better percentages across the board. Give him those 3 shots, and their PPG would be identical.

I just hate not giving a player credit because he's on a better team with more options. It's like saying Rondo's only good because he has the Big 3, or that Pierce's scoring has dropped off since the big-three era when in reality he's playing the best offensive basketball of his career.

I'm making my judgement on the fact that he came into Charlotte and made them a playoff team, with far less talent than Mayo is surrounded by (an easier conference, sure). I also don't think the offense runs through Mayo. It runs through just about everyone. Mayo's usage% is 20.7. Gay is at 22.5, ZBo at 24.6, Gasol at 17, Conly at 18.4. If anything, it's an incredibly balanced offense, which is what I was getting at. Jackson's usage was 27.8%! That's good enough for 10th best in the league.

He caries an undoubtedly larger burden on the offense, and I think that is an acceptable explanation for why last year his efficiency as a scorer was slightly less- defenses focus on him far more than defenses would focus on Mayo. Jax just means so much more to his team's offense.

I'm really not trying to credit or discredit anyone for being on a better or worse team...it's just completely understandable to score a bit less frequently as a clear #1 option than it is as a muddled 3rd option. Kobe always shoots like in the mid 40% area, and his eFG% for his career is less than Jax and Mayo's last year...but that doesn't make him worse. Defenses focus everything they have on Kobe, so a dip in %s is understandable. That's what I'm getting at. Jackson gets "Kobe-treatment" in a very minor sense.

Corey
08-19-2010, 03:20 PM
Closed the thread, you apparently re-opened it..?