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View Full Version : Why do people say Amare isn't that much of an upgrade than Lee ???!!



knicks09
08-15-2010, 01:17 AM
Now I would write my whole explanation but just watch this video because this guy pretty much says everything I've been saying for the past month. People really need to realize that adding Amare makes us better than having Lee. If you disagree with me, please watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhMefJpDdWg&feature=youtube_gdata

abe_froman
08-15-2010, 01:20 AM
older,more of an injury concern,better rebounder and making alot less

though amare is more impactful and agree he makes you better now but as time goes on i dunno(i really like lee :shrug:)

tredigs
08-15-2010, 01:22 AM
This video is garbage, the dude is absolutely clueless.

That said, Amare is better than Lee, so long as he's healthy. Not worth the max, though.

knicks09
08-15-2010, 01:25 AM
older,more of an injury concern,better rebounder and making alot less

though amare is more impactful and agree he makes you better now but as time goes on i dunno(i really like lee :shrug:)

The only thing Lee did better than Amare was rebound and pass. Amare can score much better and more than Lee, better mid range shooter, better post moves and even though they are both bad defenders, Amare is the better defender. At least Amare averages a block per game, something Lee can't do and something we really need

BrotherRedz
08-15-2010, 01:26 AM
Knicks fans should start rambling next offseason not this offseason, to see if they could land Melo or not :D

Currently they are projected at around 7 below seeding, nothing special

justinnum1
08-15-2010, 01:27 AM
Because he's not, especially without an all-star PG, Amare will put up nice numbers, but he will have to work a lot more to get his points.

knicks09
08-15-2010, 01:27 AM
This video is garbage, the dude is absolutely clueless.

That said, Amare is better than Lee, so long as he's healthy. Not worth the max, though.

I understand about over paying him but not talking about that. I'm just saying Amare is better than Lee and it's annoying when some people say that Lee is better and that the Knicks aren't better with Amare cause that's not true

D-Train#35
08-15-2010, 01:27 AM
According to WAR, they were almost equal last year. I don't think either one of the guys in the argument is right, it's almost a wash but Amare is slightly better (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt without Nash). We'll see this year.

spreadeagle
08-15-2010, 01:27 AM
Look what happend to Shawn Marion when he stopped playing with one of the greatest passers of all time,and David Lee is underated.wait n see

knicks09
08-15-2010, 01:28 AM
Because he's not, especially without an all-star PG, Amare will put up nice numbers, but he will have to work a lot more to get his points.

Amare scored more than 18 per game without Nash

knicks09
08-15-2010, 01:30 AM
Knicks fans should start rambling next offseason not this offseason, to see if they could land Melo or not :D

Currently they are projected at around 7 below seeding, nothing special

WHAT ?! What does that have anything to do with this topic ??? When dis is ever say the Knicks are gonna win a championship ??? I didn't even mention playoffs

abe_froman
08-15-2010, 01:32 AM
The only thing Lee did better than Amare was rebound and pass. Amare can score much better and more than Lee, better mid range shooter, better post moves and even though they are both bad defenders, Amare is the better defender. At least Amare averages a block per game, something Lee can't do and something we really need

he's totally a better scorer,no question...and blocks are a bad way of judging defense in itself.as well lee's d use to be pretty decent before mike d,so its unclear for why it dropped off.

and yes there was something amare provided that you guys needed that lee couldnt provide and that was generating excitement.which part of why you guys getting him was a good move for you

tredigs
08-15-2010, 01:38 AM
The only thing Lee did better than Amare was rebound and pass. Amare can score much better and more than Lee, better mid range shooter, better post moves and even though they are both bad defenders, Amare is the better defender. At least Amare averages a block per game, something Lee can't do and something we really need

Actually David Lee's the better mid-range shooter http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=David%20Lee http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Amare%20Stoudemire, and Amare can't "score much better and much more". We're talking about a 20 a game scorer with a .600ts% to a 23 a game scorer with a .606ts%. Pretty similar, and when you account for the more assists/less turnovers that David Lee gets, you're REALLY stretching to call him a much better offensive player. Only thing Amare does noticeably better than Lee is defense, which he's poor at himself. Beyond that, it's all name. He might be worth the max for NY because he'll sell tickets and help to draw in more talent, but he doesn't make the Knicks a much better team, if at all.

If the Warriors get a new coach who instills defense and David Lee becomes relevant on that end of the floor (like he has the potential to be), then the case only gets worse for Amare.

NYC1213
08-15-2010, 01:41 AM
well see ***** amares dominTE

knicks09
08-15-2010, 01:43 AM
Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not saying adding Amare makes us contenders or anything, I'm just saying adding Amare over Lee is an upgrade and makes us better.

It's like if the Nets were to get Derrick Rose over Devin Harris and people would say adding Rose to the Nets doesn't make them better. They are both great players but we all know who's better and obviously they would improve. Same with Amare to NY

Hawkeye15
08-15-2010, 01:43 AM
offensively, they are very similar. But Amare, as bad as he is on defense, is better than Lee. Its a name thing. Amare is not worth the max, but will keep fans buying tickets, and keep the Knicks relevant until they get him a #1.

BrotherRedz
08-15-2010, 01:44 AM
WHAT ?! What does that have anything to do with this topic ??? When dis is ever say the Knicks are gonna win a championship ??? I didn't even mention playoffs

Then I guess this doesnt deserve to be in the NBA forum, please send this to Knicks forums :| or Player comparison

Seems you're not confident to talk about playoffs and championships, so you're just trying to say Knicks are still crap Amare trade factor is minimal

beasted86
08-15-2010, 01:44 AM
People still think Nash made Amare.

They forget that he played at a high level before he got to Phoenix.

More-Than-Most
08-15-2010, 01:44 AM
I was so glad the Suns didn't pay Amare the max... If you are getting the max you need to be able to play both sides of the ball... Amare cant... When people leave Nash more times then not they become a shell of their former selves. Amare is an amazing scorer but I I don't see him as much of an upgrade over Lee.

justinnum1
08-15-2010, 01:47 AM
Amare scored more than 18 per game without Nash

Ho many did Lee score without Nash?

abe_froman
08-15-2010, 01:47 AM
Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not saying adding Amare makes us contenders or anything, I'm just saying adding Amare over Lee is an upgrade and makes us better.

It's like if the Nets were to get Derrick Rose over Devin Harris and people would say adding Rose to the Nets doesn't make them better. They are both great players but we all know who's better and obviously they would improve. Same with Amare to NY

yes it probably does,he has more impact ,especially in the short term

_KB24_
08-15-2010, 01:47 AM
Amare is a significant upgrade over Lee. I'm anxious to see how well Amare is going to do under D'Antoni again. If Nash would have signed in NY last year, and with their cap space next year to sign a guy like Melo, wow. It would be one of the greatest offensive trios ever assembled, along with possibly the worst defensive trio ever :D

John Walls Era
08-15-2010, 01:49 AM
Amare is an upgrade, but he isn't that much of one. Lee is a better rebounder and offensively they are about the same (Amare might be a bit better).

More-Than-Most
08-15-2010, 01:50 AM
People still think Nash made Amare.

They forget that he played at a high level before he got to Phoenix.

He had 1 great season before Nash came... He wasn't in the league very long before Nash came. No one knows how he will do without Nash but usually when players leave Nash they drop hard and fast. Nash makes everyone better around him... Amare wont have that when he goes to New York. Amare is a great scorer but he wont make the knicks a playoff team.

knicks09
08-15-2010, 01:52 AM
Then I guess this doesnt deserve to be in the NBA forum, please send this to Knicks forums :| or Player comparison

Seems you're not confident to talk about playoffs and championships, so you're just trying to say Knicks are still crap Amare trade factor is minimal

:facepalm: Stop embarrassing yourself, please stop

knicks09
08-15-2010, 01:55 AM
People still think Nash made Amare.

They forget that he played at a high level before he got to Phoenix.

Exactly, that's what saying. Plus people act like Raymond Felton isn't a good pg. Sure he's no Steve Nash but I'm sure he can sure as hell run the pick and roll well with Amare

Big Quett
08-15-2010, 01:58 AM
The only thing Lee did better than Amare was rebound and pass. Amare can score much better and more than Lee, better mid range shooter, better post moves and even though they are both bad defenders, Amare is the better defender. At least Amare averages a block per game, something Lee can't do and something we really need

Really? All Amare does is run the pick n roll and run to the front of the basket. And his mid range shot is overrated because it was better than it was but lets not act like he is Aldridge or D West with the jumper.

Amare is not that much of an upgrade except in name. It just sounds better to come see Amare over David Lee

What?
08-15-2010, 02:00 AM
That video was terrible he just talked about his awards he has gotten that have no real value there all about hype and ppg. Then when he got to actual basketball he lied, he said Nash went from 7.7 to double digit ast when actully in Nash's final season with Dallas he averaged 9 ast ppg also Amar'e wasn't the sole reason his stats went up from Dallas to Suns, Marion in his prime and Joe Johnson were there to. Also he mentioned how Amar'e averaged 20ppg without Nash but he didn't mention how that was with a .475 fg% (which is terrible from your C) then when Nash came his fg% went up to .560 with 26ppg. Actually the video from the other guy although still stupid brought up better points

SouthSideRookie
08-15-2010, 02:01 AM
Exactly, that's what saying. Plus people act like Raymond Felton isn't a good pg. Sure he's no Steve Nash but I'm sure he can sure as hell run the pick and roll well with Amare

The question was if Amare is much of an upgrade over Lee which if he is, it's not by much, this being a legitimate argument tells you that the max deal the Knicks gave him is a bad investment.

tredigs
08-15-2010, 02:02 AM
Actually, I'm changing my stance. David Lee is the better player to have.

He's consistently improved over the past three seasons (has fantastic work ethic and hustles his *** off during the games), has played 80+ games each of the past three seasons, and is showing no signs of slowing down. He also has FAR less miles on his body than Amare (and the micro-fracture won't help him out as he ages). Being that their offensive production is already nearly identical at this point (this with Amare having Nash while David Lee had Chris Duhon) and Lee's far superior rebounding/passing, I'm going to say that he's the player I'd rather have on my team for the next 5 years.

I'm a Warriors fan and was convinced otherwise until really looking into it just now, but if Lee can even marginally improve his defense under new coaching (not Don Nelson, obviously), then this is looking like a steal for Golden State at 13 mil/year (10 this year) considering the max that Amare demanded. Amare has reached his peak, he's not going to get better - with David Lee only having ONE (ok two) full seasons as a starter under his belt, I'm not sure the same can be said for him - he may be even better this year with an elite level PG on his side.

Hugbees
08-15-2010, 02:26 AM
Because they have no clue what they're talking about, barely watching enough of each player to know the look of their faces but nothing about their game. I'm sure 90% of Knick fans, people that should have the most knowledge of Lee, agree that Amare was a tremendous upgrade. I chalk it up to more of the same anti-NY stigma.

tredigs
08-15-2010, 02:30 AM
Because they have no clue what they're talking about, barely watching enough of each player to know the look of their faces but nothing about their game. I'm sure 90% of Knick fans, people that should have the most knowledge of Lee, agree that Amare was a tremendous upgrade. I chalk it up to more of the same anti-NY stigma.

Care to try to explain why with a little analysis?

And I would agree that 90% of Knicks fans would agree that Amare is a "tremendous" upgrade - mostly for the fact that, you know... he's on the Knicks now. Fact is, he isn't. In the following season, he may be a small one at best. Going forward, it's up in the air.

Edit: I had a good laugh at the video when he's talking about "ROY" and "past all star appearances" as if it is pertinent to the player they are NOW. Terrible analysis, and besides the fact that all star appearances mean nothing, it probably bears mentioning that they're both current all stars. I almost feel like making a video to put this guy in his place a bit.

KNIXX46
08-15-2010, 02:32 AM
Because he's not, especially without an all-star PG, Amare will put up nice numbers, but he will have to work a lot more to get his points.

and he will regardless, he's a beast...worry about your pf.

KNIXX46
08-15-2010, 02:36 AM
i love d lee but cats that say amare isn;t an upgrade are smokin rocks. he's gonna get his and he's gonna do it with or without an all star pg. non believers need to fall back.

John Walls Era
08-15-2010, 02:42 AM
The only thing Lee did better than Amare was rebound and pass. Amare can score much better and more than Lee, better mid range shooter, better post moves and even though they are both bad defenders, Amare is the better defender. At least Amare averages a block per game, something Lee can't do and something we really need

Amare is not a better midrange shooter. Lee put work in and actually had a decent stroke last year (more consistent than Amare). Blocks don't mean anything... Amare takes plays off on D and Lee had to guard centers last year. Neither player has a wide range of post moves. But like I said before: Amare is the better player.

GoatMilk
08-15-2010, 02:45 AM
because DLee tries dammit lol

yes Amare is better, yes he's going to have a great season, but man.
DLee put up 20/10 last year. lets not act like he was simply above average. idc what "system" he was in

still, Amare is a nice upgrade, and any person saying they would take DLee over Amare are crazy, but im just saying DLee is pretty good

ntat
08-15-2010, 02:56 AM
Because he's not, especially without an all-star PG, Amare will put up nice numbers, but he will have to work a lot more to get his points.

How do u know that at this point?

ntat
08-15-2010, 02:58 AM
Amare is not a better midrange shooter. Lee put work in and actually had a decent stroke last year (more consistent than Amare). Blocks don't mean anything... Amare takes plays off on D and Lee had to guard centers last year. Neither player has a wide range of post moves. But like I said before: Amare is the better player.

yes he is

PatsSoxKnicks
08-15-2010, 02:59 AM
Because he's not, especially without an all-star PG, Amare will put up nice numbers, but he will have to work a lot more to get his points.

Not playing with Nash will hurt him. However, he can still be a very good player.

Amare had the 3rd highest eFG% among PF (behind Varejao and Boozer) and was 2nd among PF in TS% behind Carl Landry. So for a big man, he's a very efficient scorer.

Amare is actually middle of the pack/lower end of the pack in % of FGs assisted on for PFs. To give you an idea, Dirk was assisted on a greater % of his shots than Amare was. So he does/can score a lot without Nash dishing it to him.

A lot of these numbers indicate Amare is quite a capable scorer on his own.

http://www.hoopdata.com/scoringstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PF&yr=2010&gp=40&mins=25

Sort by %Ast and you'll see where Amare ranks, its not as high as you'd expect (I was surprised myself). I'm looking at big men here because its obviously not fair to compare a big man to a PG or SG who is going to be assisted on a smaller % of plays since they have the ball in their hands at the start of a possession and since usually big men just go up and score instead of kicking it out (which Lee actually does pretty well).

He is better than Lee but it isn't by much. And I'll admit from a pure value stand point (ability vs. contract), Lee is probably better. But unfortunately, guys like Lebron, Carmelo, etc. aren't going to be sold on playing with Lee since he isn't a "name" player, hence why they overpaid for Amare which from the standpoint of helping get another superstar to town is a pretty big upgrade.

DeShaun Brown
08-15-2010, 03:02 AM
According to WAR, they were almost equal last year. I don't think either one of the guys in the argument is right, it's almost a wash but Amare is slightly better (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt without Nash). We'll see this year.

This. In my opinion, he's a not a big enough upgrade to take the Knicks to the playoffs. If they make it, it'll be as an eighth seed due to lack of competition for that spot. The way I see it, Felton is a bigger upgrade for the Knicks than Amare is. They basically fixed a position that wasn't broken by replacing an all-star with another all-star.

tredigs
08-15-2010, 03:13 AM
because DLee tries dammit lol

yes Amare is better, yes he's going to have a great season, but man.
DLee put up 20/10 last year. lets not act like he was simply above average. idc what "system" he was in

still, Amare is a nice upgrade, and any person saying they would take DLee over Amare are crazy, but im just saying DLee is pretty good

The Suns play in a faster paced system than the Knicks do, and his PG was arguably the best passer in the league, as opposed to David Lee having the worst PG in the league. And D. Lee put up 20/12 last year... The more I think about it, the less impressed I am by the Knicks supposed "upgrade". I really don't think it is one.



yes he is
No, he's not. I actually linked their hoopdata pages earlier in the thread that broke down how they shoot 10-15 feet, 16-23 feet, etc. David Lee's the better shooter.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-15-2010, 03:14 AM
This. In my opinion, he's a not a big enough upgrade to take the Knicks to the playoffs. If they make it, it'll be as an eighth seed due to lack of competition for that spot. The way I see it, Felton is a bigger upgrade for the Knicks than Amare is. They basically fixed a position that wasn't broken by replacing an all-star with another all-star.

I think the Knicks have added some other pieces (Azubuike, Mason, Randolph) that fit better with Mike's system then he has had the last 2 years. They've also gotten bigger. Plus with chuckers like Al Harrington gone from the team, you could almost argue addition by subtraction.

There isn't much competition for the last 2 spots but I think they have improved.

DeShaun Brown
08-15-2010, 03:20 AM
I think the Knicks have added some other pieces (Azubuike, Mason, Randolph) that fit better with Mike's system then he has had the last 2 years. They've also gotten bigger. Plus with chuckers like Al Harrington gone from the team, you could almost argue addition by subtraction.

There isn't much competition for the last 2 spots but I think they have improved.

I think they improved too, but I don't think that Amare was as big a signing as everyone makes him out to be.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-15-2010, 03:21 AM
The Suns play in a faster paced system than the Knicks do, and his PG was arguably the best passer in the league, as opposed to David Lee having the worst PG in the league. And D. Lee put up 20/12 last year... The more I think about it, the less impressed I am by the Knicks supposed "upgrade". I really don't think it is one.


Lee was assisted on 63.8% of his FG, Amare was assisted on 61.2% of his FG- Amare was middle of the pack for PF, Lee was middle of the pack for Centers. Both had a fair share of plays where they scored on their own.

tredigs
08-15-2010, 03:28 AM
Lee was assisted on 63.8% of his FG, Amare was assisted on 61.2% of his FG- Amare was middle of the pack for PF, Lee was middle of the pack for Centers. Both had a fair share of plays where they scored on their own.

Fair enough. But I find it hard to believe that Lee won't have an easier time getting buckets playing with any other pg than Duhon. Interesting to see that Amare iso'd that much tho'. Lee's defense also looks worse than it probably is due to him having to guard Centers in New York. He'll be going against PF's in GS, which is how it should be for him. The guy is only 6'9" (probably 6'7 or 6'8 w/ out shoes) - it wasn't his position.

Jewelz0376
08-15-2010, 03:28 AM
I'll be the first to admit that I don't watch the Knicks too often, but from what I've seen Lee doesn't really seem like the type of big you can give him the ball and let him go to work and he can consistently get you buckets...like Amare def can (not to mentioned he's proven he can do it in the playoffs)...Lee seems like he gets a lot of his pts of garbage baskets and stand still jumpers created off of other teammates....

Other than that they both dont seem to play any defense and Lee is obviously a better rebounder...

PatsSoxKnicks
08-15-2010, 03:28 AM
I think they improved too, but I don't think that Amare was as big a signing as everyone makes him out to be.

I think he was brought in to lure Lebron and that didn't work out. Whether you think Amare is an upgrade or not, as far as "name" goes, he is. The Knicks had a better shot at luring Lebron with Amare then they did with Lee, though it didn't end up working.

Shady66
08-15-2010, 03:36 AM
Amare is definately an upgrade to Lee. Im curious myself to watch Amare without Nash. He scored well his 2nd season at about 20 ppg, then Nash came. 20 ppg with Stephon Marbary is his PG. That should be incredible numbers what did Lee put up with Marbary? I know stupid comparison, but I felt like making it :)

icej
08-15-2010, 03:38 AM
He had 1 great season before Nash came... He wasn't in the league very long before Nash came. No one knows how he will do without Nash but usually when players leave Nash they drop hard and fast. Nash makes everyone better around him... Amare wont have that when he goes to New York. Amare is a great scorer but he wont make the knicks a playoff team.

I agree, Amare Averaged 22.2 pt 6.6 reb 1.1 ast 1 blk a game while playing with a great PLAYMAKER and 2 time MVP in Nash.

While D. Lee Averaged 20.2 11.7 Reb 3.6 ast 1.05 stl .5 blk while playing with an offense minded pg's.

Every professional baketball player knows that playing with a good point guard affects the opportunity to score better than a bad one. Specially with the 1st option scorer like Amare. I'm sorry but its a downgrade for the knicks, D.Lee just seems a lesser player because of the 5 years he spent with the awful knicks the jury on him should be different if he is the one who came from a playoff team like phoenix instead.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-15-2010, 03:40 AM
Fair enough. But I find it hard to believe that Lee won't have an easier time getting buckets playing with any other pg than Duhon. Interesting to see that Amare iso'd that much tho'. Lee's defense also looks worse than it probably is due to him having to guard Centers in New York. He'll be going against PF's in GS, which is how it should be for him. The guy is only 6'9" (probably 6'7 or 6'8 w/ out shoes) - it wasn't his position.

He probably will have an easier time getting buckets playing with anyone as opposed to the awfulness that was Duhon, so his numbers probably do go up.

Yeah, I hope that puts an end to the whole idea that Nash "makes" Amare.

Lee's defense probably does improve but going to the West is going to be tough on him. I still think he's going to have trouble guarding PF's as he's not that strong/tall and he's not that quick defensively. I think he lacks some of the physical skills necessary to be even a decent defender. On the other hand, I think Amare actually has the quickness and athleticism to be able to be a good defender, he's just never shown an interest in defense.

If you combined Amare's raw physical skills with Lee's high basketball IQ and work ethic, you'd get an amazing player.

tredigs
08-15-2010, 03:49 AM
He probably will have an easier time getting buckets playing with anyone as opposed to the awfulness that was Duhon, so his numbers probably do go up.

Yeah, I hope that puts an end to the whole idea that Nash "makes" Amare.

Lee's defense probably does improve but going to the West is going to be tough on him. I still think he's going to have trouble guarding PF's as he's not that strong/tall and he's not that quick defensively. I think he lacks some of the physical skills necessary to be even a decent defender. On the other hand, I think Amare actually has the quickness and athleticism to be able to be a good defender, he's just never shown an interest in defense.

If you combined Amare's raw physical skills with Lee's high basketball IQ and work ethic, you'd get an amazing player.

I'd have to agree with this.

icej
08-15-2010, 03:55 AM
Nash did no make Amare, just most of his points.

I rekon he's probably gonna average 18-20 p/pg with the knick's current play makers along with his 6 rebounds and a lot of highlight reel for consolation.

A lot of knick would be disappointed with their 28yr old new star.

PrettyBoyJ
08-15-2010, 04:20 AM
Amare>Lee

TrueFan420
08-15-2010, 04:27 AM
if the knicks play amare at center like they did lee than it doesnt matter cuz they will suck like they did last year. amare is a little better than lee but only with the right center playing next to him. the knicks prob wasnt lee being worse than amare it was that they dont have the right players to win what they were hoping tho is that amares name can change that... guess will find out soon enough.

PrettyBoyJ
08-15-2010, 04:28 AM
I agree, Amare Averaged 22.2 pt 6.6 reb 1.1 ast 1 blk a game while playing with a great PLAYMAKER and 2 time MVP in Nash.

While D. Lee Averaged 20.2 11.7 Reb 3.6 ast 1.05 stl .5 blk while playing with an offense minded pg's.

Every professional baketball player knows that playing with a good point guard affects the opportunity to score better than a bad one. Specially with the 1st option scorer like Amare. I'm sorry but its a downgrade for the knicks, D.Lee just seems a lesser player because of the 5 years he spent with the awful knicks the jury on him should be different if he is the one who came from a playoff team like phoenix instead.

:facepalm: Amar'e avg. 23.1 ppg 8.9 reb. 1.0 ast. 1.0 Blk... I dont see how David Lee can compare to someone who was getting MVP considerations after allstar break... and like the guy said in the video Nash never avg double digit assist until he teamed up with amare.. not to take anything away from nash but Amar'e can avg 20 a game without nash which he's done before and will do again.. PPl act as if Amare has no skill at all and was only set up by nash

AI4MVP
08-15-2010, 04:29 AM
Amare scored more than 18 per game without Nash

and david lee scored 20 points per game without nash...

Kashmir13579
08-15-2010, 04:37 AM
This video is garbage, the dude is absolutely clueless.

That said, Amare is better than Lee, so long as he's healthy. Not worth the max, though.

not even if he stays healthy?

Kashmir13579
08-15-2010, 04:38 AM
and david lee scored 20 points per game without nash...

lmao. david lee got a lot of put-backs. amare is gonna break the freakin rim.

SugeKnight
08-15-2010, 04:40 AM
Amare has his black powers. Jumping and dunking all over the place.

Lee has refined post moves.

Dunks>Post Moves

blastmasta26
08-15-2010, 05:18 AM
Amare has his black powers. Jumping and dunking all over the place.

Lee has refined post moves.

Dunks>Post Moves
Lee doesn't have refined post moves. When he's in the paint, he shoots jumpers or takes his man off the dribble. He is a good finisher, but he doesn't really have any post game.

RulerSlick
08-15-2010, 05:31 AM
Lee has refined post moves.



No he doesn't:facepalm:

Khalifa21
08-15-2010, 07:03 AM
Let the haters hate. Amar'e game will do the talking.

witherspoon
08-15-2010, 10:15 AM
I think alot of ppl get caught up in numbers but Amare brings alot more intangibles than D.Lee. Dont get me wrong i love Lee but Amare overall impact affects the game in way more aspects than Lee

PlezPlayDKnicks
08-15-2010, 10:29 AM
People also don't realize opposing centers laid off DLee out of fear off getting beat off the dribble.. He wasn't as effective when guarded by pf's. The fact that Amare will draw double teams and get teams in the penalty quicker gives him the edge. The fact that his presence will be attractive to another free agent is also a plus..

xbrackattackx
08-15-2010, 10:36 AM
I don't know, I know everyone argued with me that Boozer was better than Amare which isn't true.

sofargone
08-15-2010, 10:41 AM
Because they're crazy.

Nate David+ Co.
08-15-2010, 12:21 PM
i know alot of people didn't watch the knicks but duhon's gameplan was just give it to Lee. Every single time. You guys act as if Lee had other scorers. I mean Lee has basically given the ball everytimr up the floor. So 20 and 11 ( he also stat padded the hell out of those rebounds) isn't that impressive. Amare got his but alot of other ppl on the Suns scored too...

Raoul Duke
08-15-2010, 12:27 PM
I think Amare's rebounding numbers are equally as impressive as Lee's simply because The Suns were a team that rebounded "by committee". Their per game numbers make Lee look like he could be the better overall player, but the advanced stats and metrics I've looked at (from my limited understanding of such things) could indicate the opposite.

knicks09
08-15-2010, 12:37 PM
and david lee scored 20 points per game without nash...

David Lee was the first option in NY, his numbers will go down in Golden State at the PF position. Amare has shown he can still play very well without Nash

Crackadalic
08-15-2010, 12:39 PM
David Lee was the knicks only big so his rebounding numbers is a little inflated he was basically the number one option on a bad knicks team ill admit his passing is better then amare but lee just doesnt impose his will in the game like amare does

knicks09
08-15-2010, 12:39 PM
I don't know, I know everyone argued with me that Boozer was better than Amare which isn't true.

Yea that's all Bull fans right there. Boozer's a great player, but not better than Amare

3neSoulja
08-15-2010, 12:42 PM
i just love you knick fans...you guys over pay for a PF who got spoon fed his points an didnt average a double double..an all of a sudden u guys r a playoff team...ill take lee over amare anyday of the week..

MackSnackWrap
08-15-2010, 12:44 PM
Amare scored more than 18 per game without Nash

Lee scored 20

MackSnackWrap
08-15-2010, 12:44 PM
i just love you knick fans...you guys over pay for a PF who got spoon fed his points an didnt average a double double..an all of a sudden u guys r a playoff team...ill take lee over amare anyday of the week..

This

MackSnackWrap
08-15-2010, 12:44 PM
Yea that's all Bull fans right there. Boozer's a great player, but not better than Amare

Boozer> Amare

Lakersho
08-15-2010, 12:55 PM
Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not saying adding Amare makes us contenders or anything, I'm just saying adding Amare over Lee is an upgrade and makes us better.

It's like if the Nets were to get Derrick Rose over Devin Harris and people would say adding Rose to the Nets doesn't make them better. They are both great players but we all know who's better and obviously they would improve. Same with Amare to NY

...Not a fair comparison. But i get your point. Look at it this way, Amare number wise, is about the same as Lee. BUT, Amare will bring people to the games . The points he does make ,some are hard slams that ignite the crowd and therefor bring people to watch. For the money you got burned player skill wise , but the crowd will love him and the revenue will pour in. Don't get me wrong ,Amare isn't some punk. He's a real good player. And over all you guy's did alright , Heck the height advantage is worth something and the length. Amare will do real good in N.Y. because he loves the spotlight. And it shines pretty bright in the garden...

tredigs
08-15-2010, 02:04 PM
...Not a fair comparison. But i get your point. Look at it this way, Amare number wise, is about the same as Lee. BUT, Amare will bring people to the games . The points he does make ,some are hard slams that ignite the crowd and therefor bring people to watch. For the money you got burned player skill wise , but the crowd will love him and the revenue will pour in. Don't get me wrong ,Amare isn't some punk. He's a real good player. And over all you guy's did alright , Heck the height advantage is worth something and the length. Amare will do real good in N.Y. because he loves the spotlight. And it shines pretty bright in the garden...

The Knicks always sell out; he won't be bringing any more people to the games, or earning the team any more wins imo. What they have to hope for is that he is part of the reason why an unhappy superstar like Cp3 or Melo will choose NY over a team like the Brooklyn Nets.

I also question a player like Amare's work ethic and hustle night in night out when you see how well he magically played in the final half of the season just before his contract was up. I think he has the capability to be a superstar, but I'm not convinced he has the drive now that he's paid and made. At least with David Lee, the Dubs know he's going to bust his *** every single night.

No hate Knicks fans, just how I could see it playing out. That said, if he's even part of the reason why a guy like Melo or Paul come to NY, then it's a win.

knicks09
08-15-2010, 02:12 PM
i just love you knick fans...you guys over pay for a PF who got spoon fed his points an didnt average a double double..an all of a sudden u guys r a playoff team...ill take lee over amare anyday of the week..

Can you quote me at what point in this topic did I ever say were a playoff team cause of Amare ??? Stop putting words in my mouth that I never said. How about you read my previous posts before you run your mouth

KnickFanSince91
08-15-2010, 02:16 PM
People still overrating David Lee? :facepalm:

He won't average 20 and 10 again in his career so Golden State got robbed. Amare has proven he can take over games and do so over a long period of time. It's not even much of a comparison.

Bubba313
08-15-2010, 02:16 PM
People are just stupid saying they wouldn't take Amare over Lee.

People were salivating over the idea of Amare being traded to the Cavs last deadline and finally getting Lebron to his first championship. And now that he's on the Knicks he completely sucks and is not even worth getting rid of David Lee for? are you kidding me?

Do people honestly believe if the Cavs got Lee that they would of been better than if they got Amare? Think about it that way.

The Knicks are a much better team with Amare. David Lee couldn't play defense nor did he draw any attention on the offensive end to open up opportunities for other players.

29$JerZ
08-15-2010, 02:19 PM
I keep seeing Amar'e numbers are inflated because of Nash but I don't see any about how Lee's were inflated being the only rebounder on the floor and being the facilitator/featured player on the majority of our positions. He was basically our PG.

tredigs
08-15-2010, 02:33 PM
People still overrating David Lee? :facepalm:

He won't average 20 and 10 again in his career so Golden State got robbed. Amare has proven he can take over games and do so over a long period of time. It's not even much of a comparison.

Got robbed paying a guy about 12 million per season who gives them a top 5 rebounder in the game and a solid post scorer? I feel bad for Knicks fans thinking that Amare is going to be some superstar that can lead their team and be a significant improvement over D. Lee.

Any reason why David Lee won't put up 20/10 again other than blind hate? (0% chance he doesn't average 10+ rebounds in Golden State), and now that he's finally playing with an elite level PG, he's going to still get his share of points.

Money aside, it's close - with the edge probably going to Amare so long as he doesn't settle for being paid and the microfracture doesn't catch up to him as he nears 30. But considering the money, this is a no-contest. One team was robbed, and it wasn't GS.

Done arguing about this tho, we'll just have to wait for the season to get going to see how much better Amare can make them (I'd agree with a previous poster that Felton was that teams biggest upgrade, so they'll have some more wins - i'm just not convinced it will be on account of Amare).

Bubba313
08-15-2010, 02:38 PM
Got robbed paying a guy about 12 million per season who gives them a top 5 rebounder in the game and a solid post scorer? I feel bad for Knicks fans thinking that Amare is going to be some superstar that can lead their team and be a significant improvement over D. Lee.

Any reason why David Lee won't put up 20/10 again other than blind hate? (0% chance he doesn't average 10+ rebounds in Golden State), and now that he's finally playing with an elite level PG, he's going to still get his share of points.

Money aside, it's close - with the edge probably going to Amare so long as he doesn't settle for being paid and the microfracture doesn't catch up to him as he nears 30. But considering the money, this is a no-contest. One team was robbed, and it wasn't GS.

Done arguing about this tho, we'll just have to wait for the season to get going to see how much better Amare can make them (I'd agree with a previous poster that Felton was that teams biggest upgrade, so they'll have some more wins - i'm just not convinced it will be on account of Amare).

So what your saying is.... You would rather have David Lee over Amare, Anthony Randolph, Kelenna Azubuike, and Ronny Turiaf?

Considering Azu and Turiaf will start, and Randolph has the potential to be better than Lee....... how did we get robbed?

tredigs
08-15-2010, 02:46 PM
So what your saying is.... You would rather have David Lee over Amare, Anthony Randolph, Kelenna Azubuike, and Ronny Turiaf?

Considering Azu and Turiaf will start, and Randolph has the potential to be better than Lee....... how did we get robbed?

The Dubs didn't trade you Amare, chief.

Bubba313
08-15-2010, 02:48 PM
The Dubs didn't trade you Amare, chief.

Yea I know chief.. but if we didn't trade Lee then we wouldn't have got Amare either... you see they play the same position. It was either Lee or the four players I mentioned above. And how you can even consider we got robbed is a joke when we could of let Lee go for nothing, yet we turned it into a former first-rounder with huge potential, a solid wing that is a starter on many teams, and a hustle/great locker room player that protects our investment in Amare.

VinceCarter
08-15-2010, 02:52 PM
Actually David Lee's the better mid-range shooter http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=David%20Lee http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Amare%20Stoudemire, and Amare can't "score much better and much more". We're talking about a 20 a game scorer with a .600ts% to a 23 a game scorer with a .606ts%. Pretty similar, and when you account for the more assists/less turnovers that David Lee gets, you're REALLY stretching to call him a much better offensive player. Only thing Amare does noticeably better than Lee is defense, which he's poor at himself. Beyond that, it's all name. He might be worth the max for NY because he'll sell tickets and help to draw in more talent, but he doesn't make the Knicks a much better team, if at all.

If the Warriors get a new coach who instills defense and David Lee becomes relevant on that end of the floor (like he has the potential to be), then the case only gets worse for Amare.

This.

Bubba313
08-15-2010, 02:56 PM
Don't get me wrong David Lee is one of my favorite players in the league, but there is no way you can say he is more valuable than Amare. If so, we wouldn't have won less than 35 games a year the past 3 seasons and never made the playoffs.

tredigs
08-15-2010, 02:57 PM
Yea I know chief.. but if we didn't trade Lee then we wouldn't have got Amare either... you see they play the same position. It was either Lee or the four players I mentioned above. And how you can even consider we got robbed is a joke when we could of let Lee go for nothing, yet we turned it into a former first-rounder with huge potential, a solid wing that is a starter on many teams, and a hustle/great locker room player that protects our investment in Amare.

The "rob" comment was just a jab at the kid up there who stupidly called the Dubs signing of Lee for 12 mill/year a robbery by NY - the only important piece they gave up was Randolph, and they essentially have the same player with same potential already on their team in Brandon Wright. It was a good move by them, as was the Knicks off-season. But the hype that Amare is getting as a monumental upgrade over D. Lee from Knicks fans is comedy.

Don't get me wrong David Lee is one of my favorite players in the league, but there is no way you can say he is more valuable than Amare. If so, we wouldn't have won less than 35 games a year the past 3 seasons and never made the playoffs.



Edit: D. Lee will be the 2nd or 3rd option on the Warriors - he was the #1 option in NY. He's not a player that will lead a team into the playoffs, and I'm not sure Amare is either (at best - a first round exit). They're solid 2nd/3rd options.

Russollini
08-15-2010, 03:16 PM
He is an offensive player, likes the run and gun and needs a PG. The Knicks will run, but a Nash they do not have at all. Lee was solid, would not have demanded a Max Contract and would have allowed them to grow a roster. Amare, will miss at least 10 games this season with injury as well, mark my words.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-15-2010, 03:31 PM
The Knicks always sell out; he won't be bringing any more people to the games, or earning the team any more wins imo. What they have to hope for is that he is part of the reason why an unhappy superstar like Cp3 or Melo will choose NY over a team like the Brooklyn Nets.

I also question a player like Amare's work ethic and hustle night in night out when you see how well he magically played in the final half of the season just before his contract was up. I think he has the capability to be a superstar, but I'm not convinced he has the drive now that he's paid and made. At least with David Lee, the Dubs know he's going to bust his *** every single night.

No hate Knicks fans, just how I could see it playing out. That said, if he's even part of the reason why a guy like Melo or Paul come to NY, then it's a win.

I agree with this. As a Knicks fan, I'm hoping he matures and becomes the player he's capable of being. I don't know if it'll happen though.

I think the Knicks have improved with some of the other players they have brought in though. I think a lot of the people they brought in fit better with Mike's system. The bench is improved and Felton was a pretty decent sized upgrade considering Duhon was awful. Also, the progression of Gallo and Randolph should make the team better too. I think they're good enough to end up with the 8 seed in the East, maybe the 7 if everything goes right. Do I expect them to have a great record? No but it'll be good enough to slide into the back door of the East, which at the bottom is pretty bad.

VinceCarter
08-15-2010, 03:34 PM
Don't get me wrong David Lee is one of my favorite players in the league, but there is no way you can say he is more valuable than Amare. If so, we wouldn't have won less than 35 games a year the past 3 seasons and never made the playoffs.

That's all your surrounding team.

Brook Lopez is a top 3 center in the league but couldn't win more than 12 games with a hurt team, unexperienced players (etc.) and a coach who didn't know what he was doing.

Bubba313
08-15-2010, 04:12 PM
I agree with this. As a Knicks fan, I'm hoping he matures and becomes the player he's capable of being. I don't know if it'll happen though.

I think the Knicks have improved with some of the other players they have brought in though. I think a lot of the people they brought in fit better with Mike's system. The bench is improved and Felton was a pretty decent sized upgrade considering Duhon was awful. Also, the progression of Gallo and Randolph should make the team better too. I think they're good enough to end up with the 8 seed in the East, maybe the 7 if everything goes right. Do I expect them to have a great record? No but it'll be good enough to slide into the back door of the East, which at the bottom is pretty bad.

You've got to be kidding me. Mature? Yes as a player when he first came in very young he was immature but you have to look at him now.

1. He sat down with D'Antoni and figured all the problems, and openly blamed himself for the mishaps they had when they were both with the Suns.
2. He had a bad eye injury that left him out of basketball shape for the beginning half of the season. Even he said that it took him halfway through to get his body back to 100% where he began to average 26 and 8. Not to mention this guy has like 5% body fat so don't question his work ethic.
3. How many off-season MAX players or any type of free agent did you see at the summer league cheering on his team and working out wit newly acquired teammates Anthony Randolph and Wilson Chandler.
4. Most importantly, he is mature enough to take on the challenge of New York and embrace it, without making a major deal of it and announcing it on a one hour special on ESPN.

Bubba313
08-15-2010, 04:14 PM
[/B]

That's all your surrounding team.

Brook Lopez is a top 3 center in the league but couldn't win more than 12 games with a hurt team, unexperienced players (etc.) and a coach who didn't know what he was doing.

To me Brook Lopez is overrated for that same reason. Come on I mean Devin Harris and Brook Lopez should net you guys more than 12 wins. But I do like Lopez as a player but him and Lee need to earn their respect before their considered better than players like Amare and Bosh.

Similar to Monta Ellis or Al Jefferson, great players but what have their teams done. Not much. So they are not considered in an elite category within their position.

sintaks12
08-15-2010, 10:16 PM
I'll be the first to admit that I don't watch the Knicks too often, but from what I've seen Lee doesn't really seem like the type of big you can give him the ball and let him go to work and he can consistently get you buckets...like Amare def can (not to mentioned he's proven he can do it in the playoffs)...Lee seems like he gets a lot of his pts of garbage baskets and stand still jumpers created off of other teammates....

Other than that they both dont seem to play any defense and Lee is obviously a better rebounder...

Being a huge Knick fan and having watched every game they played last year, this statement is 125% correct. Lee did improve his jumper, no question... but he's predominantly a garbage guy. He can't get his own shot. And then there's the intimidation factor. Cmon... Lee is soft and Amare is a beast. The numbers (at least last year) were somewhat comparable... but Stat is an upgrade. A big one.

VinceCarter
08-15-2010, 10:24 PM
To me Brook Lopez is overrated for that same reason. Come on I mean Devin Harris and Brook Lopez should net you guys more than 12 wins. But I do like Lopez as a player but him and Lee need to earn their respect before their considered better than players like Amare and Bosh.

Similar to Monta Ellis or Al Jefferson, great players but what have their teams done. Not much. So they are not considered in an elite category within their position.

People recognize Lopez as an elite center the team doesn't hold you back that much.

arkanian215
08-15-2010, 11:11 PM
http://i37.tinypic.com/scqty9.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/2wrmfd4.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/5e8iyu.jpg

These are the 2009-10 numbers. FT=FTA

His FG% doesn't drop that drastically (2.4%) w/o Nash on the court. This makes me think he doesn't necessarily need a Nash type creator to help him get his shot. A play marker of Barbosa's or Dragic's caliber only resulted in a 2.4% (about 5 points per 100 shots) drop.

Just eyeballing it, his FT/FGA rises without Nash on the court. That suggests he's even more aggressive without Nash. That's confusing because his FGA attempt rate drops when Nash leaves. So I thought, maybe he's being more selective by taking it to the rim more. That doesn't seem to be the case. His "Pct of FGA 3FT or In" drops with Nash off the court. Something about the way the Suns play causes this to happen but I'm not sure what. If you guys can figure it out let me know.

Anyway, Amar'e in a non-Nash lineup projects at 21.7 PPG, 5.18/6.7 (FTM/FTA), @ 53.65% from the field. It looks like the biggest factor driving down the scoring would be the ability to score 3FT or In. There's about a 6% difference in FG% when Nash isn't on the court from 3FT in. This probably comes from a combination of chemistry and Nash's passing ability. I don't think the scoring drop off is enough to say that Amar'e will have a hard time scoring. I think we all expect him to have a harder time scoring without Nash since he is one of the best point guards in the league in terms of creating for his team mates. Anyway, we'll see.

nysportsfan23
08-15-2010, 11:15 PM
Alot of this is NY hate, people do not like NY, especially if they live in an "irrelevant"/lifeless part of the country (if I lived in alabama, I probably would hate NY too endlessly).

Amare is without question an upgrade over Lee, he is one all star piece.
Donnie has been ingenious in his recovery post lebron's decision, THE WHOLE ROSTER, repeat, THE WHOLE ROSTER, is expiring contracts and/or pieces/appreciating assets.

Future Eastern Conference: HEAT, KNICKS, ORLANDO, CHICAGO, and.....everyone else.
That is a big piece of the hate as well, and will likely be the power structure possibly as early as 2011.

Evolution23
08-15-2010, 11:20 PM
David Lee is a power Forward lets see how he plays against quicker power forwards because hes now returning to his natural position. This whole Amare vs Lee thing is getting our of hand because of Knick haters. Last season Lee wasn't considered good but now that hes off the Knicks hes an amazing player. PLeaseee

Kyben36
08-15-2010, 11:26 PM
rebounding goes to Lee

Defense, goes to lee, which is actualy sad

offense, goes to Amare, but Lee didnt have nash either

Passing, goes to Lee

I mean, besides scoring, there is nothing else that Amare does better than Lee Personaly, I hate lee, but you cant say that Amare is twice the player lee is.

arkanian215
08-15-2010, 11:28 PM
Alot of this is NY hate, people do not like NY, especially if they live in an "irrelevant"/lifeless part of the country (if I lived in alabama, I probably would hate NY too endlessly).

Amare is without question an upgrade over Lee, he is one all star piece.
Donnie has been ingenious in his recovery post lebron's decision, THE WHOLE ROSTER, repeat, THE WHOLE ROSTER, is expiring contracts and/or pieces/appreciating assets.

Future Eastern Conference: HEAT, KNICKS, ORLANDO, CHICAGO, and.....everyone else.
That is a big piece of the hate as well, and will likely be the power structure possibly as early as 2011.
I don't think so. All these issues about Amar'e have been brought up before he got to NY. As Slimsim put it,
This is a thread about NY am i correct ? So if a non-Knicks fan comes in and give their opinion about the Topic doesn't mean were taking Shots at your team Grow up.

PC
08-15-2010, 11:32 PM
rebounding goes to Lee

Defense, goes to lee, which is actualy sad

offense, goes to Amare, but Lee didnt have nash either

Passing, goes to Lee

I mean, besides scoring, there is nothing else that Amare does better than Lee Personaly, I hate lee, but you cant say that Amare is twice the player lee is.

Let me guess you went by stats? Lee's the definition of a stat padder. He's a guy who refuses to play on his man so he can go under the basket and try to get rebounds. Again passing wise I'm sure you're looking at stats. He's a good passer for a PF but at the same time our PG was Chris Duhon so the offense always ran through Lee which is why he got the assists and points. I could go on and on but the point is Lee is the textbook example of how stats can be so misleading

Raidaz4Life
08-15-2010, 11:36 PM
I want to know why people think Amare IS. I mean yeah he's better but not enough to completely turn that team around the way everybody thinks.

Sandman
08-15-2010, 11:38 PM
Lee is the textbook example of how stats can be so misleading
My response to this thread in one sentence.

Lee's a fine player, but he benefited from being the only fine player.

nanablvd
08-15-2010, 11:38 PM
because he's never been a leader of the team. Now being the best player in the team and there's no another star, he will have to do a lot more than before to carry a team, sth he's never proved to be able to accomplish yet. He's an upgrade than Lee though, no doubt.

KnicksorBust
08-15-2010, 11:55 PM
It's going to be a very interesting season in NY that's for sure. Amar'e can prove a lot of people right or a lot of people wrong. I actually don't foresee much of a drop at all from his numbers. Felton will pick up the slack more than people realize and he is really that damn good. Lee's stats are a mirage. Lee and Monta will light it up as the Warriors tear up the scoreboards for another 32 win season. The Knicks with Amar'e and that lights out shooter that they have will finally make the playoffs for the first time since trading for Marbury.

Slimsim
08-16-2010, 12:06 AM
rebounding goes to Lee

Defense, goes to lee, which is actualy sad

offense, goes to Amare, but Lee didnt have nash either

Passing, goes to Lee

I mean, besides scoring, there is nothing else that Amare does better than Lee Personaly, I hate lee, but you cant say that Amare is twice the player lee is.

Lee doesn't block Shot amare at least get a block or two a game.

Lee was our only rebounder Majority of the season. That's why his rebounding numbers were so high. if you notice once the Knicks sign Earl Barron lee rebounding number drop.

Lee was the number 1 option on the knicks. Let see how much point lee will average when he's the third option behind Ellis and curry.

Slimsim
08-16-2010, 12:14 AM
I don't think so. All these issues about Amar'e have been brought up before he got to NY. As Slimsim put it,

No it's Hate When Knicks Had lee he was never over hype until now. Once Amare became a Knick All you hear is injury prone this bad attitude that and his lack of rebounding. Know one talks about how he dominated in the playoffs. Chicago Got Boozer and now people consider them a top 3 team even though he's Played with a top 3 PG he's just as injury prone and also a mediocre defender While not that impressive in the playoffs.

TheGsw
08-16-2010, 12:19 AM
Remember Lee had to guard centers in NY, which made him look like an even worse defender. He's now along side with Andris, playing his natural pos.

Slimsim
08-16-2010, 12:30 AM
Remember Lee had to guard centers in NY, which made him look like an even worse defender. He's now along side with Andris, playing his natural pos.

Lee was owned by every PF he guarded. He had an Advantage on Centers because he was faster than them and most of the time they wouldn't come and guard the jump shot. Maybe Some of y'all should watch some knicks game and look at David lee Defensively and stop looking at stats. There are 3 types of Lies. There's a Lie then there's a dam lie And then there's Stats. Words of wisdom from Kenny Smith.

SouthSideRookie
08-16-2010, 12:59 AM
No it's Hate When Knicks Had lee he was never over hype until now. Once Amare became a Knick All you hear is injury prone this bad attitude that and his lack of rebounding. Know one talks about how he dominated in the playoffs. Chicago Got Boozer and now people consider them a top 3 team even though he's Played with a top 3 PG he's just as injury prone and also a mediocre defender While not that impressive in the playoffs.

Dominant in the playoffs huh, you might of been watching something different cause from what I can remember there was several times he had games where he had 2 or 3 rebounds for the entire game, on Amare being regarded as not being someone who doesn't give it his all for stretches, that is the truth. I can remember when there was rumors on several ocassions that the Rockets were intrested in aquiring Amare and the majority of the fans were not in favor of it because of the issues that many fans are stating here about Amare. If there is a way you can go back and watch some of the playoff games you will see that he just goes through stretches where he just doesn't look into the game, this is nothing new.

What?
08-16-2010, 01:09 AM
Lee doesn't block Shot amare at least get a block or two a game.

Lee was our only rebounder Majority of the season. That's why his rebounding numbers were so high. if you notice once the Knicks sign Earl Barron lee rebounding number drop.

Lee was the number 1 option on the knicks. Let see how much point lee will average when he's the third option behind Ellis and curry.

For your 1st point: Block shots don't=defense

For your second point: Amar'e was the only rebounder on the Suns and he still averaged less then 9 a game so what does that say about his rebounding ability. Also Lee's rpg went down to around 10 per game for 7 games that's not much to base a entire season around.

For your 3rd point: just because a player isn't taking as many shots as before doesn't make him a worse player. Amar'e was the #1 option on the Suns put him on that current Miami team he averages 17/8 that doesn't mean he got became a worse player it means he has less opportunities

Sandman
08-16-2010, 01:17 AM
I dont think you can discount Boozer for playing with an elite PG. He's put up steady numbers when healthy everywhere.

And whose to say he isn't still playing with an elite PG anyway?

Quietmoney
08-16-2010, 01:42 AM
First of all let me say this.... THERE'S NO WAY THAT DAVID LEE IS EVEN CLOSE TO THE PLAYER AMARE IS!! THERE'S NO WAY THAT DAVID LEE COULD EVER AVERAGE 38PPG AGAINST SAN ANTONIO GOING UP AGAINST TIM DUNCAN. THERE'S NO WAY THAT HE COULD EVEN THINK ABOUT GOING UP AGAINST THAT LAKERS TEAM LAST SEASON AND PUTTING UP A 40 POINT GAME. I'M SICK OF HEARING WHAT AMARE AIN'T. HE'S NOT A MAX PLAYER BUT BOSH IS?? EVERYONE WAS WITH THAT DEAL BUT DID ANYONE NOTICE THAT TORONTO DIDN'T EVEN MAKE THE PLAYOFFS?? DID ANYONE NOTICE THAT HE'S BEEN IN THE LEAGUE FOR SEVEN YEARS AND HAS ONLY PLAYED IN 11 PLAYOFF GAMES?? DID ANYONE NOTICE THAT AMARE OVER THE LAST 4 YRS HAS PLAYED MORE GAMES THAN BOSH?? HAS ANYONE NOTICED THAT EVEN AFTER THE MICRO FRACTURE SURGERY THAT HE IS STILL MORE EXPLOSIVE THAN BOSH OR DAVID LEE COULD EVER DREAM OF BEING?? DAVID LEE BENEFITED FROM US INFLATING HIS STATS. WHEN AMARE MAKES THE ALL-STAR TEAM IT'S NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE GET HURT, HE MAKES IT OUT RIGHT! AMARE DOES ONE MORE IMPORTANT THING THAT NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THAT IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE 2 REBOUNDS A GAME MORE THAN DAVID LEE GETS OVER HIM... HE DEMANDS A DOUBLE TEAM! THE UTIMATE WAY TO BREAK A TEAMS DEFENSE DOWN. MORE SO THAN THE POINT GAURD TRYING TO MAKE A PLAY. PEOPLE NEED TO STOP POSTING THE NON SENSE.

boriquaabe
08-16-2010, 01:52 AM
First of all let me say this.... THERE'S NO WAY THAT DAVID LEE IS EVEN CLOSE TO THE PLAYER AMARE IS!! THERE'S NO WAY THAT DAVID LEE COULD EVER AVERAGE 38PPG AGAINST SAN ANTONIO GOING UP AGAINST TIM DUNCAN. THERE'S NO WAY THAT HE COULD EVEN THINK ABOUT GOING UP AGAINST THAT LAKERS TEAM LAST SEASON AND PUTTING UP A 40 POINT GAME. I'M SICK OF HEARING WHAT AMARE AIN'T. HE'S NOT A MAX PLAYER BUT BOSH IS?? EVERYONE WAS WITH THAT DEAL BUT DID ANYONE NOTICE THAT TORONTO DIDN'T EVEN MAKE THE PLAYOFFS?? DID ANYONE NOTICE THAT HE'S BEEN IN THE LEAGUE FOR SEVEN YEARS AND HAS ONLY PLAYED IN 11 PLAYOFF GAMES?? DID ANYONE NOTICE THAT AMARE OVER THE LAST 4 YRS HAS PLAYED MORE GAMES THAN BOSH?? HAS ANYONE NOTICED THAT EVEN AFTER THE MICRO FRACTURE SURGERY THAT HE IS STILL MORE EXPLOSIVE THAN BOSH OR DAVID LEE COULD EVER DREAM OF BEING?? DAVID LEE BENEFITED FROM US INFLATING HIS STATS. WHEN AMARE MAKES THE ALL-STAR TEAM IT'S NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE GET HURT, HE MAKES IT OUT RIGHT! AMARE DOES ONE MORE IMPORTANT THING THAT NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THAT IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE 2 REBOUNDS A GAME MORE THAN DAVID LEE GETS OVER HIM... HE DEMANDS A DOUBLE TEAM! THE UTIMATE WAY TO BREAK A TEAMS DEFENSE DOWN. MORE SO THAN THE POINT GAURD TRYING TO MAKE A PLAY. PEOPLE NEED TO STOP POSTING THE NON SENSE.

Brah edit your post and don't use caps. We can't read this crap.

boriquaabe
08-16-2010, 01:55 AM
If you watch STAT play he doesn't like to mix it up at all. He don't like to get dirty and you have to have guys that want to get in their and mix it up to compensate. Some of this could be him being cautious because of the nature of the injuries he's had and honestly I don't blame him. But NY needed someone who can score and finish and someone who scored points in the paint. You just have to compensate a little but you have to compensate for alot of players. I also think that Nash's inability to keep opposing PG's from penetrating puts a strain on the frontline.

sunnydayin'zona
08-16-2010, 02:03 AM
Because he's not, especially without an all-star PG, Amare will put up nice numbers, but he will have to work a lot more to get his points.

thanks for the contribution, we havent heard this a million times.

like the knicks guy said, early amare put up almost the same stats before the suns got nash. they had starbury at the time.

and recently when amare played without nash, he put up 38 points and led the suns over the thunder, ending their 8 game win streak.


Look what happend to Shawn Marion when he stopped playing with one of the greatest passers of all time,and David Lee is underated.wait n see

thats such bulls hit. alright, what happened to joe johnson, huh?


Amare scored more than 18 per game without Nash

okay, what i hate is that you knicks fans would never agree when suns fans made this argument before you got him. it makes me a little sick, dont act like your some sudden amare expert, all of a sudden some huge fan when you've probably only watched him play a hand full of times. dont act like your team drafted the guy almost a decade ago, and you watched him find his own in the nba. call me bitter, but i watched this guy grow up. dont go and act like you know, dont go and act like you saw him play that 18ppg rookie season.

sunnydayin'zona
08-16-2010, 02:05 AM
First of all let me say this.... THERE'S NO WAY THAT DAVID LEE IS EVEN CLOSE TO THE PLAYER AMARE IS!! THERE'S NO WAY THAT DAVID LEE COULD EVER AVERAGE 38PPG AGAINST SAN ANTONIO GOING UP AGAINST TIM DUNCAN. THERE'S NO WAY THAT HE COULD EVEN THINK ABOUT GOING UP AGAINST THAT LAKERS TEAM LAST SEASON AND PUTTING UP A 40 POINT GAME. I'M SICK OF HEARING WHAT AMARE AIN'T. HE'S NOT A MAX PLAYER BUT BOSH IS?? EVERYONE WAS WITH THAT DEAL BUT DID ANYONE NOTICE THAT TORONTO DIDN'T EVEN MAKE THE PLAYOFFS?? DID ANYONE NOTICE THAT HE'S BEEN IN THE LEAGUE FOR SEVEN YEARS AND HAS ONLY PLAYED IN 11 PLAYOFF GAMES?? DID ANYONE NOTICE THAT AMARE OVER THE LAST 4 YRS HAS PLAYED MORE GAMES THAN BOSH?? HAS ANYONE NOTICED THAT EVEN AFTER THE MICRO FRACTURE SURGERY THAT HE IS STILL MORE EXPLOSIVE THAN BOSH OR DAVID LEE COULD EVER DREAM OF BEING?? DAVID LEE BENEFITED FROM US INFLATING HIS STATS. WHEN AMARE MAKES THE ALL-STAR TEAM IT'S NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE GET HURT, HE MAKES IT OUT RIGHT! AMARE DOES ONE MORE IMPORTANT THING THAT NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THAT IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE 2 REBOUNDS A GAME MORE THAN DAVID LEE GETS OVER HIM... HE DEMANDS A DOUBLE TEAM! THE UTIMATE WAY TO BREAK A TEAMS DEFENSE DOWN. MORE SO THAN THE POINT GAURD TRYING TO MAKE A PLAY. PEOPLE NEED TO STOP POSTING THE NON SENSE.

what, because all of a sudden you know? i bet if you would have gotten bosh and the heat got amare you'd say the same goddanm thing, just switching the names.

PHX2daDEATH
08-16-2010, 02:12 AM
I only watched 2 knicks games all year so I can really judge David Lee.. I know him and Dallo did torch the Suns back in december pretty bad..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx7zOjLpvfg

As for Amare.. Sometimes he got lost in the Suns offense, he wont do that in New York..it'll be all him and Dano. I love Steve Nash.. WORSHIP the guy but, Amare not playing with him is not going to affect STAT's stats.

boriquaabe
08-16-2010, 02:17 AM
I only watched 2 knicks games all year so I can really judge David Lee.. I know him and Dallo did torch the Suns back in december pretty bad..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx7zOjLpvfg

As for Amare.. Sometimes he got lost in the Suns offense, he wont do that in New York..it'll be all him and Dano. I love Steve Nash.. WORSHIP the guy but, Amare not playing with him is not going to affect STAT's stats.

I'll tell you something about Lee... In two years time that guy will be shooting a gang of 3pointers. As the years go by he has been moving his game further and further away from the basket.

boriquaabe
08-16-2010, 02:22 AM
what, because all of a sudden you know? i bet if you would have gotten bosh and the heat got amare you'd say the same goddanm thing, just switching the names.

Don't we all do it? It is impossible for fans to be objective when it comes to their teams. I happen to be good at it hahaha.... But I'm an old head and you get that way when you've seen your teams come up short time and time and again and most teams come up short... after all only one team can win it all on any given year.

We fans just get too close to our players. We see their faults up close and their strengths up close and we always over value our guys until they leave and then we do the opposite. We always talk junk about opposing players until they play for our team. Supporting your teams and players always come with contradictions.

Quietmoney
08-16-2010, 02:27 AM
what, because all of a sudden you know? i bet if you would have gotten bosh and the heat got amare you'd say the same goddanm thing, just switching the names.

Bosh is overrated, don't you agree?? He's never helped his team make any noise. I don't expect one player to get it done but c'mon man!! He has not one notable playoff game under his belt in seven years of being in the league. I'm gonna be real with you though... at first when I thought of Amare with all the injuries, I thought that Bosh would be the better option, but I was too busy listening to what everyone else was saying. When I looked at how many games he played in the last 4 yrs, I was like hell, Bosh has played less games than him. And even with the injury, Amare is still more of an impact player. Bosh doesn't strike any fair into opposing teams defensive schemes. They pretty much let him do what he does. And that's take low percentage shots when the game is on the line.

SouthSideRookie
08-16-2010, 02:35 AM
Bosh is overrated, don't you agree?? He's never helped his team make any noise. I don't expect one player to get it done but c'mon man!! He has not one notable playoff game under his belt in seven years of being in the league. I'm gonna be real with you though... at first when I thought of Amare with all the injuries, I thought that Bosh would be the better option, but I was too busy listening to what everyone else was saying. When I looked at how many games he played in the last 4 yrs, I was like hell, Bosh has played less games than him. And even with the injury, Amare is still more of an impact player. Bosh doesn't strike any fair into opposing teams defensive schemes. They pretty much let him do what he does. And that's take low percentage shots when the game is on the line.

And many have also said that the Knicks and Heat will eventually regret the deals they gave to these two. Bosh is very overrated, on Amare, he at least has played in big games and has played well at times, Bosh, to not even make the playoffs in the east, pathetic.

evadatam5150
08-16-2010, 02:39 AM
This video is garbage, the dude is absolutely clueless.

That said, Amare is better than Lee, so long as he's healthy. Not worth the max, though.

Agree to a point.. I personally think it's a wash but do absolutely agree that Amare needs to stay healthy.. We'll see how much of an impact Nash really had on his numbers though.. I will say, as I've always contended, that Amare is kind of soft and shoots far too many jumpers.. Sure he will occasionally get his monster dunk, but as a whole he will settle.. Just an observation, obviously I think it will be pretty interesting to see if he sinks or swims with the Knicks.. I'm guessing it wont be a break out season for him and that the Knicks would have been better off spending less money to keep Lee..

tredigs
08-16-2010, 02:44 AM
Bosh is overrated, don't you agree?? He's never helped his team make any noise. I don't expect one player to get it done but c'mon man!! He has not one notable playoff game under his belt in seven years of being in the league. I'm gonna be real with you though... at first when I thought of Amare with all the injuries, I thought that Bosh would be the better option, but I was too busy listening to what everyone else was saying. When I looked at how many games he played in the last 4 yrs, I was like hell, Bosh has played less games than him. And even with the injury, Amare is still more of an impact player. Bosh doesn't strike any fair into opposing teams defensive schemes. They pretty much let him do what he does. And that's take low percentage shots when the game is on the line.

I don't know about that. Bosh is being so shoved aside as the lapdog in this Miami fiasco that I'd actually say he's being underrated at this point. He may have missed more time than Bosh over the last few years, but that's not anything to worry about. He caught a freak elbow to his face last season (during the middle of a playoff run, which subsequently exploded with him out) which took him out, but it's not as if that's going to bother him going forward like the micro-fracture will for Amare as he ages.

He's had no significant help his entire tenure in Toronto (the dude's #2 was literally Mike James for a year), but he's a pretty damn good player - and he's going to flourish in Miami with how much attention Wade + Lebron are going to draw. I'd definitely take Bosh over Amare, personally.

mbarajas138
08-16-2010, 02:45 AM
injuries

PrettyBoyJ
08-16-2010, 03:04 AM
If you watch STAT play he doesn't like to mix it up at all. He don't like to get dirty and you have to have guys that want to get in their and mix it up to compensate. Some of this could be him being cautious because of the nature of the injuries he's had and honestly I don't blame him. But NY needed someone who can score and finish and someone who scored points in the paint. You just have to compensate a little but you have to compensate for alot of players. I also think that Nash's inability to keep opposing PG's from penetrating puts a strain on the frontline.


But Amare led the league in points in the paint.. and can finish anywhere around the basket so I think the knicks got what they needed

scutch11
08-16-2010, 10:40 AM
For your 1st point: Block shots don't=defense

For your second point: Amar'e was the only rebounder on the Suns and he still averaged less then 9 a game so what does that say about his rebounding ability. Also Lee's rpg went down to around 10 per game for 7 games that's not much to base a entire season around.

For your 3rd point: just because a player isn't taking as many shots as before doesn't make him a worse player. Amar'e was the #1 option on the Suns put him on that current Miami team he averages 17/8 that doesn't mean he got became a worse player it means he has less opportunities

this is 100% not true. Im a knicks fan, and ive watched a lot of games the last 2 years

not only does david lee not block shots, he is a terrible on the ball defender as well. he cant guard anyone straight up, and not only that, but hes undersized too, so many big men can just get shots up over him.

i know amar'e isnt the best defender, but i would be SHOCKED if hes not better than lee.

second, amar'e was not the only rebounder on the suns. he had robin lopez (good rebounder), channing frye (6'11"), grant hill (grabs a really high % of rebounds not sure exactly) and guys like almundson and dudley who fight hard for rebounds.

conversely, david lee WAS the only rebounder on the knicks, hence such a high amount of rebounds. there was simply no other player who could rebound while he was on the court. i might be wrong, but i think chandler and gallo were the second best rebounders, and they grab a little over 5 a game.

although i do think amar'e is better, it is not drastically better, but along with all of the other pieces weve added this summer, he should help make us enough better to get in to the playoffs with the 7 or 8 seed

arkanian215
08-16-2010, 10:59 AM
No it's Hate When Knicks Had lee he was never over hype until now. Once Amare became a Knick All you hear is injury prone this bad attitude that and his lack of rebounding.
I'm sure Amar'e's average rebounding has been brought up before he signed anywhere. Everyone brought up the injury history of Amar'e before he signed anywhere.

Know one talks about how he dominated in the playoffs. He scored a lot yes, but he got dominated on the boards (as expected, LA is a very good rebounding team)

Chicago Got Boozer and now people consider them a top 3 team even though he's Played with a top 3 PG he's just as injury prone and also a mediocre defender While not that impressive in the playoffs.

Boozer did well. He got a lot of his buckets on his own. He got more PPG in the playoffs than during the regular season. His defense isn't the greatest but we all knew that. The difference between Amar'e going to NY and Boozer going to Chicago is that Chicago needed a go to post scorer. Lee's efficiency on the offensive end isn't that much worse than Amar'e's while the difference between Boozer and Taj Gibson is large. Everyone knows Boozer is injury prone and no one has overlooked that even before he became a free agent.

All of these things were brought up before they even entered free agency (except for Amar'e's atittude. Not sure where that comes from). Also, Lee being one of the top 15 selling NBA jerseys isn't hype? Anyway,

This is a thread about Amar'e am i correct ? So if a non-Knicks fan comes in and give their opinion about the topic doesn't mean they're hating on your team Grow up.

arkanian215
08-16-2010, 11:07 AM
But Amare led the league in points in the paint.. and can finish anywhere around the basket so I think the knicks got what they needed

But the Knicks had that. David Lee made the most out of anyone in the league at the rim. Amar'e was slightly more efficient (0.9%).
http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=%25&type=tot&posi=%25&yr=2010&gp=40&mins=25
In terms of inside scoring, Amar'e wasn't leap and bounds better than Lee. They were roughly the same.

stejay
08-16-2010, 11:11 AM
I don't know, ridding of your most consistent performer, and best player, to get a very good, if injury prone star, who costs more.... I'm not too sure just yet

Eyegazym27
08-16-2010, 11:25 AM
all i have to say is Amar'e is going to miss Steve Nash like Malone would have Stockton if they split up. not to say Felton is useless or anything tho. the best thing for Amar'e is that even tho he had a little bad blood with Dantoni in Phoenix its 100% certain he is ecstatic to be with him again cause he doesnt have to play defense again! the guy has ZERO presence on D and on the defensive glass. this coming from a Suns fan.

also Amares lack of rebounding, defense, injury issues have always been common knowledge. he would b a Sun still otherwise.

he'll b at the foul line even more tho than past seasons i feel since he wont have Nash to get him all his tons of open dunks and easy elbow jumpers. a lot more drives which should also get him hurt. those knees wont last those five years. maybe 3 if he's lucky.

would def say an upgrade from Lee under the Dantoni style right now but to bad the Knicks wont ever be a contender under those 5 years unless they pull off CP3 and Carmello. they will get rocked by teams like the Celts, Magic, and Lakers due to size (obviously) and beat by everyone else due to the fact they r, well, the Knicks

PrettyBoyJ
08-16-2010, 11:43 AM
all i have to say is Amar'e is going to miss Steve Nash like Malone would have Stockton if they split up. not to say Felton is useless or anything tho. the best thing for Amar'e is that even tho he had a little bad blood with Dantoni in Phoenix its 100% certain he is ecstatic to be with him again cause he doesnt have to play defense again! the guy has ZERO presence on D and on the defensive glass. this coming from a Suns fan.

also Amares lack of rebounding, defense, injury issues have always been common knowledge. he would b a Sun still otherwise.

he'll b at the foul line even more tho than past seasons i feel since he wont have Nash to get him all his tons of open dunks and easy elbow jumpers. a lot more drives which should also get him hurt. those knees wont last those five years. maybe 3 if he's lucky.

would def say an upgrade from Lee under the Dantoni style right now but to bad the Knicks wont ever be a contender under those 5 years unless they pull off CP3 and Carmello. they will get rocked by teams like the Celts, Magic, and Lakers due to size (obviously) and beat by everyone else due to the fact they r, well, the Knicks

but amare scored more points when nash was out of the game as opposed to him playing...

arkanian215
08-16-2010, 11:54 AM
but amare scored more points when nash was out of the game as opposed to him playing...

really?... where's your stats to prove that?

Eyegazym27
08-16-2010, 12:03 PM
but amare scored more points when nash was out of the game as opposed to him playing...

strange. where did u find this interesting fact?

greatly disagree. Amare is an opportunist who thrived off of slashing and rolling off of picks he gave to Nash. its common knowledge Nash's ability to get players the ball in an open spot is something very few players have been able to accomplish in their NBA careers...almost Magic Johnson esque.

there will b a lot of Amare facing up and then standing there with the ball in his hands like he did in Iso plays with Nash off the floor in New York where he wont be as effective as he was in Phoenix. mark my words.

all players that had career numbers in Phoenix with Nash have proved to c all their stats decrease without him. Raja Bell, Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion to name a few.

this may be interesting to u.. check the chart at the bottom of the article
http://valleyofthesuns.com/2010/07/04/amare-stoudemire-will-he-be-the-same-without-nash/

Immoknight
08-16-2010, 12:31 PM
I have managed to read through this rubbish. OMG... OMG! I can't believe the completely biased and foolish posts. A handful of you made some sense while ignoring a lot of truths that stats hide, while others merely played the, "He was injured, he can get injured again and thus it's a risk. wah, wah, wah" card or the best card yet, "He is nothing without Nash, NOTHING!!! I TELL YOU, MUAhahahahahah".

Anyways, I am here to help you all see the light. This is incredibly simple and it hurts me that it hasn't been brought up by another voice of reason.

Amar'e is at twice as good as Lee. Why do I say that? Well, it's fairly simple...

A) Defense... Whoever claimed Lee was the better defender needs to watch a Knicks game. Just one possession and you can see what exactly is going on. Lee is eyeing that board instead of defending his guy. Frankly, you can watch on nearly every possession as Lee would leave his guy to grab the rebound, EVEN colliding with his own teammate on several occasions because the man MUST get his. Lee has probably some of the worst on the ball defending I have ever seen in a player, mainly because his focus is on the rebound instead of the man. Amar'e managed to get blocks which are a key indicator of post presence. Also, factor in that he was defending players in the West as I will get to later on.

B) Offense... If you think Lee had to earn his, you are funny. Lee was the first option... second option... maybe even the third option on his team. Duhon spoon fed the ball to Lee, on many occasions ignoring more open teammates to give Lee the ball. Lee can finish with both hands... but since he developed a jump shot, he refuses to go to the rim at all. Amar'e likes to finish strong... he has post moves while Lee is more then content to hoist up a jump shot. As the seasons progressed, you see Lee farther and farther from the basket(As one poster correctly pointed out, forgot name, sorry.). By the time contract is up, Lee will be shooting from Mid-court.

C) East vs. West... Why has this NOT been brought up? Amar'e is going to the East... the weaker conference. He was GREAT in the West, but just imagine him in the East. Now, Lee is going to the West, imagine how that will effect him. This is a huge factor as it will impact their stats along with how they function. Amar'e will DOMINATE... Lee will SURVIVE.

D) The Nash Factor... Nash is a great player. A great passer and playmaker, which goes without question. Felton is a good passer, good playmaker but he is also a better defender. Why does that matter? Well... if you recall, Nash has PG's dash by him and Amar'e stuck there trying to defend them. That wont happen, this will allow Amar'e to focus more on defending his man. Amar'e was a great player without Nash, that doesn't change. You have to double team the man in the paint, why has that changed just because he doesn't have Nash? You feed him the ball... the ball gets there and Amar'e gets to work. Why does this formula change just because Nash isn't the one feeding the ball? Also, consider the East vs. West thing here as well, the players will be of lower quality all across the board for Amar'e. The system remains the same, thus limiting time to adjust.

E) Rebounding... Lee used to box out... he stopped doing that, realized that it would interfere with him getting a rebound. He used to be hustle, but he realized hustle doesn't pay as much as stat padding. Best part? He would stay in a blow out game... to get a double double before quickly checking out. Amar'e earned his rebounds playing in a more competitive West, a more competitive team, and against bigger players. Lee was fed those rebounds as he would literally be the only one to grab loose rebounds.

To summarize, Lee stat padded while Amar'e simply beasted. Watch a Knick game and then a Suns game. Watch Amar'e and Lee specifically and you will see everything I mentioned as undeniable facts which go beyond mere stats. Lee figured out how to manipulate the system to get his money... congrats to him, but don't be fooled.

Eyegazym27
08-16-2010, 01:06 PM
I have managed to read through this rubbish. OMG... OMG! I can't believe the completely biased and foolish posts. A handful of you made some sense while ignoring a lot of truths that stats hide, while others merely played the, "He was injured, he can get injured again and thus it's a risk. wah, wah, wah" card or the best card yet, "He is nothing without Nash, NOTHING!!! I TELL YOU, MUAhahahahahah".

Anyways, I am here to help you all see the light. This is incredibly simple and it hurts me that it hasn't been brought up by another voice of reason.

Amar'e is at twice as good as Lee. Why do I say that? Well, it's fairly simple...

A) Defense... Whoever claimed Lee was the better defender needs to watch a Knicks game. Just one possession and you can see what exactly is going on. Lee is eyeing that board instead of defending his guy. Frankly, you can watch on nearly every possession as Lee would leave his guy to grab the rebound, EVEN colliding with his own teammate on several occasions because the man MUST get his. Lee has probably some of the worst on the ball defending I have ever seen in a player, mainly because his focus is on the rebound instead of the man. Amar'e managed to get blocks which are a key indicator of post presence. Also, factor in that he was defending players in the West as I will get to later on.

B) Offense... If you think Lee had to earn his, you are funny. Lee was the first option... second option... maybe even the third option on his team. Duhon spoon fed the ball to Lee, on many occasions ignoring more open teammates to give Lee the ball. Lee can finish with both hands... but since he developed a jump shot, he refuses to go to the rim at all. Amar'e likes to finish strong... he has post moves while Lee is more then content to hoist up a jump shot. As the seasons progressed, you see Lee farther and farther from the basket(As one poster correctly pointed out, forgot name, sorry.). By the time contract is up, Lee will be shooting from Mid-court.

C) East vs. West... Why has this NOT been brought up? Amar'e is going to the East... the weaker conference. He was GREAT in the West, but just imagine him in the East. Now, Lee is going to the West, imagine how that will effect him. This is a huge factor as it will impact their stats along with how they function. Amar'e will DOMINATE... Lee will SURVIVE.

D) The Nash Factor... Nash is a great player. A great passer and playmaker, which goes without question. Felton is a good passer, good playmaker but he is also a better defender. Why does that matter? Well... if you recall, Nash has PG's dash by him and Amar'e stuck there trying to defend them. That wont happen, this will allow Amar'e to focus more on defending his man. Amar'e was a great player without Nash, that doesn't change. You have to double team the man in the paint, why has that changed just because he doesn't have Nash? You feed him the ball... the ball gets there and Amar'e gets to work. Why does this formula change just because Nash isn't the one feeding the ball? Also, consider the East vs. West thing here as well, the players will be of lower quality all across the board for Amar'e. The system remains the same, thus limiting time to adjust.

E) Rebounding... Lee used to box out... he stopped doing that, realized that it would interfere with him getting a rebound. He used to be hustle, but he realized hustle doesn't pay as much as stat padding. Best part? He would stay in a blow out game... to get a double double before quickly checking out. Amar'e earned his rebounds playing in a more competitive West, a more competitive team, and against bigger players. Lee was fed those rebounds as he would literally be the only one to grab loose rebounds.

To summarize, Lee stat padded while Amar'e simply beasted. Watch a Knick game and then a Suns game. Watch Amar'e and Lee specifically and you will see everything I mentioned as undeniable facts which go beyond mere stats. Lee figured out how to manipulate the system to get his money... congrats to him, but don't be fooled.


Amare is going to an Eastern conference that is getting considerably better where he will likely having to go up against the Centers of that league which with a healthy Suns team he didnt. Lopez, Frye and even Jarron Collins were the ones guarding the 5 position while on the floor with Amare. i highly doubt Ronny Turiaf will b put on all the centers like Dwight, Brooke Lopez, Andrew Bogut, and Shaq/Perkins/Jermaine the Knicks will face leaving Amare to have to deal with that.

Amare offensive profficiency will absolutely drop. the stats show that

Raymond Felton is a good passer but he has never gotten to 8 assists a game. not to say Amare wont survive with out Steve, he will just absolutely not be as good with out him.

also Amare is called STAT for a reason, he doesnt give crap about anything on the defensive end as almost 1/3 of his rebounds come on the offensive end each season as he puts no effort on the other side of the court.

defensively if u watched the Suns u would know they relied on team defense that came solely from everyone that wasnt Amare. this included Lou Amundson, Lopez, Dudley, JRich, and Grant mostly. they played a zone to get a majority of their stops. everyone knows Nash gets beat of the dribble, they gets bick calls with charges tho as well.

Bivory
08-16-2010, 01:14 PM
You would have to be absolutely nutty to think Lee and Amare are in the same league as players. I could careless about stats....If you've watched these two players over their careers, you would see that Lee is moving more toward being a perimeter player as apposed to becoming a low post threat like most PF's should be. Lee has never attracted a double team in his career while Amare does it constantly which leaves shooters wide open. Some of you will say, what about Dirk, but keep in mind that he is a rare talent and finding PF's like that are very few and far between. Lee gets all the respect in the world from me, but I want my PF banging with the bigs instead of putting up 15-18 footers all night...

bkmikeyy
08-16-2010, 01:23 PM
Amare is better than Lee, I honestly don't even think its close. But for the doubters, you forget that Knicks got very fair value for Lee. Lee had a career year stat padding on a terrible Knick team and they got 3 very solid pieces (one of which has star potential) for him AND signed Amare. So for people saying they haven't improved after those moves the should really be look at it as Amare, Randolph, Azibukee, Turiaf vs. Lee.... and its not even close.

Immoknight
08-16-2010, 01:25 PM
Amare is going to an Eastern conference that is getting considerably better where he will likely having to go up against the Centers of that league which with a healthy Suns team he didnt. Lopez, Frye and even Jarron Collins were the ones guarding the 5 position while on the floor with Amare. i highly doubt Ronny Turiaf will b put on all the centers like Dwight, Brooke Lopez, Andrew Bogut, and Shaq/Perkins/Jermaine the Knicks will face leaving Amare to have to deal with that.


Wrong? Sorry. You are wrong. The Knicks have centers, they are going to use Amar'e at the natural PF position to avoid having him go against Centers since the grind is lower as a PF then a Center, especially on the knees. Knicks centers include, Ronny Turiaf, Timofey Mozgov, and Jerome Jordan. If the other team goes small, they can use Amar'e as center which gives increased flexibility.



Amare offensive profficiency will absolutely drop. the stats show that


... Hmm... What future stats are we using to show this? While you are at it Nostradamus, tell me where the Knicks finish in the Easter Conference. Frankly, stats show PAST results, not future ones. They can help predict with some leniency but he is going to a different team, in a different conference and you... along with all the other 'experts' have no idea how well he could do on the Knicks. Preaching future failure on past success seems like a very foolish formula, right?



Raymond Felton is a good passer but he has never gotten to 8 assists a game. not to say Amare wont survive with out Steve, he will just absolutely not be as good with out him.


Has Felton ever had a FINISHER like Amar'e? Has he ever been allowed to roam free in run n' gun offense? Felton will get 8+ assists, EASILY in this system. Brown contained him... D'antoni will let him loose on the NBA. This one is fairly obvious.



also Amare is called STAT for a reason, he doesnt give crap about anything on the defensive end as almost 1/3 of his rebounds come on the offensive end each season as he puts no effort on the other side of the court.

defensively if u watched the Suns u would know they relied on team defense that came solely from everyone that wasnt Amare. this included Lou Amundson, Lopez, Dudley, JRich, and Grant mostly. they played a zone to get a majority of their stops. everyone knows Nash gets beat of the dribble, they gets bick calls with charges tho as well.

Rebounding is a very misleading stat. Look at David Lee. :eyebrow: The fact that he doesn't get defensive rebounds isn't a reflection of effort but positioning. Frankly, the man wants to get to the other side as fast as he can as he is an offensive option and give a player like Steve Nash a chance to kick it to him for an easy score. Is that a fair statement? Lee would 'eat' defensive rebounds for the stat geeks... but he would completely give up defensively to do that. I mean, look at this team, we have gotten rid of Al Harrington, Duhon, and Lee. On the floor, those 3 give touch fouls and easy lay-ups. How can you possibly say Amar'e wont have help defensively as well. Gallinari, Chandler, Felton, and our center (Turiaf or Mozgov) will help him.

Lebromer
08-16-2010, 01:26 PM
Let's see how he does without Nash's pick and rolls

SouthSideRookie
08-16-2010, 01:27 PM
Amare is going to an Eastern conference that is getting considerably better where he will likely having to go up against the Centers of that league which with a healthy Suns team he didnt. Lopez, Frye and even Jarron Collins were the ones guarding the 5 position while on the floor with Amare. i highly doubt Ronny Turiaf will b put on all the centers like Dwight, Brooke Lopez, Andrew Bogut, and Shaq/Perkins/Jermaine the Knicks will face leaving Amare to have to deal with that.

Amare offensive profficiency will absolutely drop. the stats show that

Raymond Felton is a good passer but he has never gotten to 8 assists a game. not to say Amare wont survive with out Steve, he will just absolutely not be as good with out him.

also Amare is called STAT for a reason, he doesnt give crap about anything on the defensive end as almost 1/3 of his rebounds come on the offensive end each season as he puts no effort on the other side of the court.

defensively if u watched the Suns u would know they relied on team defense that came solely from everyone that wasnt Amare. this included Lou Amundson, Lopez, Dudley, JRich, and Grant mostly. they played a zone to get a majority of their stops. everyone knows Nash gets beat of the dribble, they gets bick calls with charges tho as well.

I agree, im not a Suns fan im a Rocket's fan, but I've seen plenty of Suns game to have realized by now that Amare just doesn't have the drive or like you said, "he puts no desire on either side of court" for prolonged stretches, it's funny to me how fans from other teams think they know more about a player than someone who follows a particular player or team religiously(you as a Suns fan in this case), trust me, I see it happening here all the time.

Immoknight
08-16-2010, 01:29 PM
Let's see how he does without Nash's pick and rolls

Yea, because without Nash feeding him the ball. Amar'e magically forgot how to dunk, post-up, shoot mid-range and how to run a pick and roll with anyone else. Got you... wait, no, that's not what magically happened. Stop believing the hype (Frankly, it's all hype that Amar'e can't succeed without Nash. It's not like the man is now playing baseball and has to learn to do everything over again. He just switched teams, NOT SPORTS.).

writ42
08-16-2010, 01:38 PM
Everyone thinks that because not everyone is a Knicks fan. Thus, everyone doesn't overrate Amare like Knick fans do.

GMEN4EVER
08-16-2010, 01:40 PM
Amar'e is a much better fit on the knicks than Lee is at this point as well. We need a low post scorer, and he gives us that. Lee gets killed in the low post, he's all garbage pts, mid range J's and pick and roll. That's how he gets his points. Amar'e led the league in points in the paint, I think that's a good indicator that the man can ball down low. He's also an upgrade on the defensive side, where Lee may have been the worst front court defender in the entire league.

mikealike305
08-16-2010, 01:48 PM
amare>lee.... but not a HUGE improvment... but an inprovment non the less

AZCardsFan
08-16-2010, 01:52 PM
Amare is going to an Eastern conference that is getting considerably better where he will likely having to go up against the Centers of that league which with a healthy Suns team he didnt. Lopez, Frye and even Jarron Collins were the ones guarding the 5 position while on the floor with Amare. i highly doubt Ronny Turiaf will b put on all the centers like Dwight, Brooke Lopez, Andrew Bogut, and Shaq/Perkins/Jermaine the Knicks will face leaving Amare to have to deal with that.

Amare offensive profficiency will absolutely drop. the stats show that

Raymond Felton is a good passer but he has never gotten to 8 assists a game. not to say Amare wont survive with out Steve, he will just absolutely not be as good with out him.

also Amare is called STAT for a reason, he doesnt give crap about anything on the defensive end as almost 1/3 of his rebounds come on the offensive end each season as he puts no effort on the other side of the court.

defensively if u watched the Suns u would know they relied on team defense that came solely from everyone that wasnt Amare. this included Lou Amundson, Lopez, Dudley, JRich, and Grant mostly. they played a zone to get a majority of their stops. everyone knows Nash gets beat of the dribble, they gets bick calls with charges tho as well.

STAT = Standing Tall and Talented... has nothing to do with "actual stats"

That being said... Amare > Lee but not worth the contract IMO

Crackadalic
08-16-2010, 01:55 PM
for anyone that said david lee is better then amare has anybody actually watch the knicks for the last two years? just because you look at stats shouldn't give you a reason to say he is better he played against centers so yea he gonna look good against them when he did played Pf he was burn badly anderson varejao made him look like a role player at times im knocking david lee i like him as a player he is really good but to say he is way better then amare is ludicrous how was he the number one option and only scored 20ppg and his rebounded is so inflated its not even funny

Immoknight
08-16-2010, 01:56 PM
STAT = Standing Tall and Talented... has nothing to do with "actual stats"

That being said... Amare > Lee but not worth the contract IMO

I love it when people have to eat their words... when they have their foot shoved in their mouths for them by someone who actually understands what's going on. You just did that. I :clap: you! :)

Lebromer
08-16-2010, 02:09 PM
Yea, because without Nash feeding him the ball. Amar'e magically forgot how to dunk, post-up, shoot mid-range and how to run a pick and roll with anyone else. Got you... wait, no, that's not what magically happened. Stop believing the hype (Frankly, it's all hype that Amar'e can't succeed without Nash. It's not like the man is now playing baseball and has to learn to do everything over again. He just switched teams, NOT SPORTS.).

He can certainly do all those things, just not very well. But I'm sure throwing a bunch of money at him will turn him into a better player. It's worked for the Knicks before, right?

Sandman
08-16-2010, 02:15 PM
@ those who say Amare will have to square off against the mighty Brook Lopez and Andrew Bogut (and Dwight, I'll give you dwight), how about the fact he wont be up against Dirk, Duncan, Al Jefferson, Zach Randolph or David West?

JordansBulls
08-16-2010, 02:17 PM
Everyone thinks that because not everyone is a Knicks fan. Thus, everyone doesn't overrate Amare like Knick fans do.

What exactly has Lee done to prove he is as good as Amare?

Brooklyn Mets
08-16-2010, 02:20 PM
Amare>Lee

Amare played in 4 AllStar games and started 1 time, in the Western Conf
Lee barely made the AllStar team last year

dont get me wrong Lee was one of my favorite Knicks and is still one of my favorite players but Amare is better..

bkmikeyy
08-16-2010, 02:25 PM
People also do not realize how much the front courts in the West have been the past 5 years or so. Amare put up monster numbers against the likes of Duncan and Lee feasted on guys like Yi JianLian.

SouthSideRookie
08-16-2010, 02:38 PM
@ those who say Amare will have to square off against the mighty Brook Lopez and Andrew Bogut (and Dwight, I'll give you dwight), how about the fact he wont be up against Dirk, Duncan, Al Jefferson, Zach Randolph or David West?

Im sure the Knicks have playoff hopes, so how about when Amare goes up against good frontcourts, which really good teams have regardless if you're in the east or west, Amare has his good moments but its quite obvious that when he faces good bigs he just gets dirt kicked in his face for the most part.

Sandman
08-16-2010, 02:48 PM
Im sure the Knicks have playoff hopes, so how about when Amare goes up against good frontcourts, which really good teams have regardless if you're in the east or west, Amare has his good moments but its quite obvious that when he faces good bigs he just gets dirt kicked in his face for the most part.

On D, yes. But as a scorer, he doesn't get owned at all. I think he can stand next to just about anybody.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3607/gamelog;_ylt=AvJwYJ6KOMmZDXaI7FiTJvCxPKB4

THE MTL
08-16-2010, 03:00 PM
Its because we are the Knicks and no matter what we do, ppl always try to shoot us down. Thats the real problem. Last year, David Lee was a pure product of D'Antoni's FAST PACED system (which wasnt even fastpaced last yr) and his 20ppg 12rpg was empty stats. Now, since we got Amare......David Lee is the same value. OKAY!

Zefflin
08-16-2010, 03:52 PM
I would pick Amare over Lee 999 outta 1000 times. And the one time I picked Lee would be because I was tripped on acid. Don't get me wrong, Lee is a good player, but Amare is a great player. Knicks are way better with him over Lee.

arkanian215
08-16-2010, 04:05 PM
Its because we are the Knicks and no matter what we do, ppl always try to shoot us down. Thats the real problem. Last year, David Lee was a pure product of D'Antoni's FAST PACED system (which wasnt even fastpaced last yr) and his 20ppg 12rpg was empty stats. Now, since we got Amare......David Lee is the same value. OKAY!

I think some of the criticisms of Amar'e are legitimate but folks looking to defend Amar'e will turn the cheek and call them haters. Offensively the gap between Lee and Amar'e isn't much. Lee put up good numbers at an efficient rate and so did Amar'e (we should also note that the Suns played at a faster pace than the Knicks last year but both were in the top 6 in the league in terms of pace). Does it matter whether Lee was a first, second third and/or fourth option? Not really. He's still a productive and efficient scorer when called upon. Same goes for rebounding. Lee has proven that he can get rebounds.

In terms of defense, this is where I think there's the largest gap between the two. The Suns' opponents converted 59.8% (11th in the league) at the rim and 41.9% (9th in the league) from 10 ft and in. The Knicks were close to or were last in these two categories. That suggests that Amar'e was plenty capable of defending the post. Of course neither of the two defended it by themselves. The Knicks lacked depth behind Lee while the Suns had Robin Lopez and Louis Amundson. These stats follow what many Knicks fans have pointed out as Lee's stat padding tendencies.

I wouldn't say Amar'e is twice as good as Lee but overall, I wouldn't say the difference is marginal either.

The Raven
08-16-2010, 04:22 PM
This man does not rebound nor puts up any effort on D

Slimsim
08-16-2010, 04:23 PM
I think some of the criticisms of Amar'e are legitimate but folks looking to defend Amar'e will turn the cheek and call them haters. Offensively the gap between Lee and Amar'e isn't much. Lee put up good numbers at an efficient rate and so did Amar'e (we should also note that the Suns played at a faster pace than the Knicks last year but both were in the top 6 in the league in terms of pace). Does it matter whether Lee was a first, second third and/or fourth option? Not really. He's still a productive and efficient scorer when called upon. Same goes for rebounding. Lee has proven that he can get rebounds.

In terms of defense, this is where I think there's the largest gap between the two. The Suns' opponents converted 59.8% (11th in the league) at the rim and 41.9% (9th in the league) from 10 ft and in. The Knicks were close to or were last in these two categories. That suggests that Amar'e was plenty capable of defending the post. Of course neither of the two defended it by themselves. The Knicks lacked depth behind Lee while the Suns had Robin Lopez and Louis Amundson. These stats follow what many Knicks fans have pointed out as Lee's stat padding tendencies.

I wouldn't say Amar'e is twice as good as Lee but overall, I wouldn't say the difference is marginal either.

This is why Lee rebounding numbers were inflated. Lee is a aggressive rebounder but he was our only rebounder in the paint. Once knicks had a true center in Earl Barron lee rebounding number decrease.

Tony_Starks
08-16-2010, 04:35 PM
first off that somaya reece pic is pure fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





Ok on topic sorry to break it to you but he's not a huge upgrade. Offensively Amare is a better scorer and athletic finisher anywhere near the rim. Lee's got a better mid range game. Lee is a better rebounder. Neither one plays defense worth a lick. Lee is a better passer, last year he almost haded out 4dimes a game. Amare's never avg'd more than 2, including when he played for Mike with loads of talent to pass to.


Basically Amare has the edge of being able to explode for 40pts on any given night, which Lee can't. In that respect he's an upgrade but lets keep in mind all this has been done with Nash setting the table for him so when you factor all that in its really a wash IMO.....

DoJoTheSlasher
08-16-2010, 04:46 PM
Amare is better but they are both extremely overrated so that isn't saying much.

arkanian215
08-16-2010, 05:04 PM
This is why Lee rebounding numbers were inflated. Lee is a aggressive rebounder but he was our only rebounder in the paint. Once knicks had a true center in Earl Barron lee rebounding number decrease.

Shouldn't that make the job harder? If he's the only Knick going after rebs opposed to two from the opposing team, shouldn't it be a bigger challenge?

Even if it was easier ((since there's one less guy to fight for the ball), if you look back at his first three years, he had Zbo and Curry in there and he still had a rebounding rate similar to the one he had this year. I don't buy your argument that his rebounding numbers are inflated due to the lack of depth.

dbeastly
08-16-2010, 05:16 PM
I'm gonna say Amare is better because Amare is now jewish, and I'm jewish....so we have a connection :). Even though I hate the Knicks. And Lee looked like he was on the verge of superstardom last year, he might just get over the hump this year.

king4day
08-16-2010, 05:48 PM
He's an upgrade in that he can take over a game. That's something Lee can't do.
Lee reminds me of a more offensively talented version of Marion.
Lee will never draw a doubleteam the way Amar'e does and will never finish around the basket how Amar'e does.

It's not like Lee would have come cheap anyway. Knicks save around 4mil per year if they kept Lee for what he got.
It's a risk worth taking because Amar'e will draw fan interest and give the team hope over the next few years.

Also, I think players are more inclined to want to play with Amar'e than Lee....thus why you hear the Paul and Melo rumors. And to a lesser extent, Parker.

So from a talent standpoint, Amar'e is an upgrade. From a team stand point, he's a huge upgrade.They can take their foot off the brake.

Zefflin
08-16-2010, 05:55 PM
Lee's got a better mid range game.

Noooo way. Amare has proven that he can hit anything 20 feet and under. Even fade-aways. Lee will occasionally hit the open 15-18 footer. Amares mid range is much better. That is why you don't see Lee going off for 30 every other night, because he can't.

tredigs
08-16-2010, 06:09 PM
Noooo way. Amare has proven that he can hit anything 20 feet and under. Even fade-aways. Lee will occasionally hit the open 15-18 footer. Amares mid range is much better. That is why you don't see Lee going off for 30 every other night, because he can't.

Not true, actually. Amare's got the flash with the occasional fadeaway, but again the numbers don't lie about David Lee being the more effective mid-range shooter.

http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Amare%20Stoudemire

http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=David%20Lee

The fourth chart down shows their fg attempts "at rim", from "<10 feet", "10-15 feet", etc.

Bishnoff
08-16-2010, 06:09 PM
Because they don't understand how much harder it is to play PF in the West, and think that the two conferences are comparable when discussing big men.

Bubba313
08-16-2010, 06:11 PM
Not true, actually. Amare's got the flash with the occasional fadeaway, but again the numbers don't lie about David Lee being the more effective mid-range shooter.

http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Amare%20Stoudemire

http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=David%20Lee

Numbers actually do lie considering Lee played center for the most part and was left unguarded around the perimeter of the paint. Even when he wasn't playing center people did not learn to respect his jumper.

People know Amare can hit that shot, and Amare is much more of a threat offensively so he is guarded with more attention.

D-Leethal
08-16-2010, 06:27 PM
Amare #1 scoring option on a WCF team and 6 time all nba selection
Amare draws double teams on a consistent basis, Lee has never demanded a double team

/thread

JakeDelbreezy
08-16-2010, 06:32 PM
If both players were available to me at the same contract then I would take Amare, I think the question I have about Amare's worth is whether he's actually going to play up to his max-salary? I just don't think he will. It doesn't mean I think he's a bad player or that he's not an upgrade, I just don't think he'll play up to what he was paid and because of that it's hard to call him a "substantial" upgrade because it's possible at some point his salary hinders what the Knicks could do.

tredigs
08-16-2010, 06:39 PM
Numbers actually do lie considering Lee played center for the most part and was left unguarded around the perimeter of the paint. Even when he wasn't playing center people did not learn to respect his jumper.

People know Amare can hit that shot, and Amare is much more of a threat offensively so he is guarded with more attention.

He was their #1 offensive option and virtually the only player the other team had to worry about on that side of the floor - these weren't all uncontested jumpers bro. I was impressed with his offensive game last season. Amare was the top paint scorer in the game, teams loved it when he took the jumpers, and would often offer it to him. You're overrating him... again.

LA_Raiders
08-16-2010, 07:12 PM
Amare > Lee

tredigs
08-16-2010, 07:18 PM
Amare > Lee

I don't think anyone is arguing that.

The argument (for the people on my side) is that:

Amare is not >>>!>>> Lee, like some people are attempting to say.

I'm honestly not a big fan of either, and I'm a Warriors fan.

VinceCarter
08-16-2010, 07:28 PM
Amare just recieved the #1 worst newcomer from ESPN.

David Lee tied for 8th on the list.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=SummerForecast10-WorstNewcomer

Bubba313
08-16-2010, 07:43 PM
He was their #1 offensive option and virtually the only player the other team had to worry about on that side of the floor - these weren't all uncontested jumpers bro. I was impressed with his offensive game last season. Amare was the top paint scorer in the game, teams loved it when he took the jumpers, and would often offer it to him. You're overrating him... again.

Dude it's understandable, your a Warriors fan and your excited about your acquisition as you should be. Lee is a GREAT player. But he is not Amare and never will be. Amare is a top 5 PF in the game.

Coming from the Knicks fans, especially me, who have watched David Lee since he was drafted... he has come a VERY LONG way. He is such an improved player and I really enjoyed him. That being said, you are wrong. Yes, he was our #1 option on offense, but he was not respected like he was. He drew absolutely no attention other than his own man, which he would easily be able to outmaneuver the centers guarding him. As a #1 option you'd think he would have garnered at least one double team but he did not.

Not to mention this guy would let people walk in the paint and score on him. At least Amare is a presence and deters people from scoring even if he doesn't play that great of one on one D.

Klivlend
08-16-2010, 07:58 PM
I don't know man. I would rather have Amare over Lee. Without reading through the thread, I'm guessing people will use his knees and his dependency on a good point guard as reasons. Most post players depend on a good point guard. I'm not a doctor, by his knees seems ok to me. And, his contract is a little ridiculous.

JayW_1023
08-17-2010, 08:53 AM
Amare is downgrade compared to Lee...Lee's hustle rebounding and unselfishness will win more games than Amar'es explosiveness, lack of defense and scoring.

Immoknight
08-17-2010, 11:24 AM
Amare is downgrade compared to Lee...Lee's hustle rebounding and unselfishness will win more games than Amar'es explosiveness, lack of defense and scoring.

This is the funniest thing I have read on these forums. He stopped hustling two years ago, when he realized he can manipulate stat geeks by simply picking up easy rebounds and taking rebounds from teammates. You said Amar'e will cost you games with his lack of defense but that doesn't apply to Lee? Lee is INFINITELY WORSE then Amar'e. Lee couldn't guard a 3 year old... he would turn away and wait for the rebound. Amar'e actually plays defense, you can't say the same about Lee. Unselfish, Lee? He is all about the benjamins. Ask yourself, who would you want the ball to go to with 7 seconds left, and the game on the line. Argh, ignorance is bliss... you sir must be living the dream.

SupeUnagi
08-17-2010, 11:28 AM
because they paid way too much, the cost overlapped the skill

scutch11
08-17-2010, 12:42 PM
because they paid way too much, the cost overlapped the skill

this is the only argument. you can put up all the stats you want, but amar'e demanded a double team, and went against the western conference which has blatantly better and deeper frontcourts. david lee...i love him....but he didnt get double teams, and had no other rebounders to help him so he got all the rebounds. amar'e had lopez, frye, hill, almundson, etc.

Sandman
08-17-2010, 12:52 PM
this is the only argument. you can put up all the stats you want, but amar'e demanded a double team, and went against the western conference which has blatantly better and deeper frontcourts. david lee...i love him....but he didnt get double teams, and had no other rebounders to help him so he got all the rebounds. amar'e had lopez, frye, hill, almundson, etc.

would the other team get the extra rebounds or would Amare get 11+?

Lee has always been a good rebounder. He might pad points, but not boards.

bkmikeyy
08-17-2010, 12:58 PM
would the other team get the extra rebounds or would Amare get 11+?

Lee has always been a good rebounder. He might pad points, but not boards.

Lee steals rebounds from his own teammates

PC
08-17-2010, 12:58 PM
would the other team get the extra rebounds or would Amare get 11+?

Lee has always been a good rebounder. He might pad points, but not boards.

Actually in terms of team rebounds we do worse with Lee.

GMEN4EVER
08-17-2010, 01:13 PM
Lee stole some rebounds, but he was still a pretty good rebounder overall. Amar'e can do it, it's more of a matter of focus and desire for him. And with being the number 1 guy for once I think he'll be very focused this season. He wants to show people he's an elite player in this league, and can do it without Steve Nash. Amar'e scores more than Lee, and opens up the court far more for his team mates, didn't see Lee drawing too many double teams. And I like Amar'e on D more as well. He's far from great on defense, but he is an improvement on what Lee can do.

Tony_Starks
08-17-2010, 04:58 PM
I guess I was the only one that was watching the Western Finals Phoenix vs Lakers this year, in which Amare had a grand total of 8 rebounds in the first two games combined.

He did redeem himself though, he finished the series averaging a whopping 6 boards per game........ in a contract year may I add........







so yeah, Phoenix decided not to max him out.

Abdul Mutalib
08-17-2010, 05:51 PM
All in all, Amare > Lee as individual players but not overwhelmingly enough to suddenly turn the knicks into a contender in the east. I'm curious to see how he does w/o Nash who makes any1 around him look significantly better. Felton has some shoes to fill...

sep11ie
08-17-2010, 06:01 PM
Amare's not better than D.Lee. At least not by much...

JayW_1023
08-18-2010, 01:31 AM
Amare has more raw talent than Lee but Lee just knows the game better and gives tons more effort on the glass and on defense. And he is a better passer as well.

I'll take Lee.

JayW_1023
08-18-2010, 01:34 AM
This is the funniest thing I have read on these forums. He stopped hustling two years ago, when he realized he can manipulate stat geeks by simply picking up easy rebounds and taking rebounds from teammates. You said Amar'e will cost you games with his lack of defense but that doesn't apply to Lee? Lee is INFINITELY WORSE then Amar'e. Lee couldn't guard a 3 year old... he would turn away and wait for the rebound. Amar'e actually plays defense, you can't say the same about Lee. Unselfish, Lee? He is all about the benjamins. Ask yourself, who would you want the ball to go to with 7 seconds left, and the game on the line. Argh, ignorance is bliss... you sir must be living the dream.


No. I'm one of the few who isn't mesmerized by big scoring numbers. let's see how efficient amare will be without gimmes from steve nash. You can say about Lee what you want, but at least he tries to play D, unlike Amare.

Run&Gun
08-18-2010, 02:15 AM
Amare is better than David Lee period. But I don't think he's the kind of player that will skyrocket your team to playoff contention by himself. Problem with Amare is his ego.
He goes for stretches of games without trying that's why he doesn't get rebounds, blocks or play good defense, has has no hustle. Other problem is that if he doesn't get his offense going, he won't do anything else, and he's on of the top PF's in the game but I see little improvement in his game over the years if anything there may be a slight decline.

David Lee is less offensively skilled, I'm not sure if he really plays worse defense though. I think a lot of his problem is that he had to play center and he didn't have anyone that could provide help side blocks. He does however provide great consistency night and and night out and improves on one thing every year.

All in all Amare could be the best PF in the game if he puts in mind to it. But knowing his history he probably won't.

Immoknight
08-18-2010, 02:17 AM
No. I'm one of the few who isn't mesmerized by big scoring numbers. let's see how efficient amare will be without gimmes from steve nash. You can say about Lee what you want, but at least he tries to play D, unlike Amare.

Going to quote myself here...

A) Defense... Whoever claimed Lee was the better defender needs to watch a Knicks game. Just one possession and you can see what exactly is going on. Lee is eyeing that board instead of defending his guy. Frankly, you can watch on nearly every possession as Lee would leave his guy to grab the rebound, EVEN colliding with his own teammate on several occasions because the man MUST get his. Lee has probably some of the worst on the ball defending I have ever seen in a player, mainly because his focus is on the rebound instead of the man. Amar'e managed to get blocks which are a key indicator of post presence. Also, factor in that he was defending players in the West as I will get to later on.

Lee doesn't "TRY" to play Defense, he is forced to and does so with the amount of 'passion' you would expect from a guy looking for a rebound, not a defensive stop.

Evolution23
08-18-2010, 02:20 AM
Amare > Lee when Lee is on the Knicks
Lee> Amare when Amare is on the Knicks

close thread, haters gona hate :cool:

SouthSideRookie
08-18-2010, 02:21 AM
I guess I was the only one that was watching the Western Finals Phoenix vs Lakers this year, in which Amare had a grand total of 8 rebounds in the first two games combined.

He did redeem himself though, he finished the series averaging a whopping 6 boards per game........ in a contract year may I add........







so yeah, Phoenix decided not to max him out.

I was watching also, I've brought it up here but I also get the impression that not too many people who defend Amare were watching.

icej
08-18-2010, 03:09 AM
Amare is better than David Lee period. <<< Based on what? Their Jersey number?

Last season?

Shooting fg - considering Lee is a much better range shooter.
Amare- Career Ave. 0.544% with 23.1 ppg 2009
Lee - Carrer Ave.0.557% with 20.2 ppg 2009

Assist
Amare - 1 a game
Lee - 3.6 a game

Rebounds -
Amare-8.9
Lee - 11.7

Steal
Amare -0.6
Lee - 1

Block
Amare - 1
Lee - 0.5

Turnover
Amare -2.60 a game
Lee -2.33 a game

Defense is the only one sensible criteria that amare is slightly better.
But the necessary intangibles of lee's value are better than amare, with some of their stats cancelling each other out on which is better, but it is very clear that Lee has the advantage on TEAM PLAYING than Amare, (better assist and turnover)who is so used of scoring of a good pass and running front court with every opportunity without fighting for a rebound.

If knicks actually gets better from this change, it would be very minimal while further widening their teams needs rather than filling them.

While Lee has much room to get better, with his scrappy mindedness coaches would love to surround him with caliber players.

Amare should have a good point guard alongside him. They should get marbury.

sargon21
08-18-2010, 03:25 AM
^ that whole post was pretty good till you mentioned marbury lol

COOLbeans
08-18-2010, 03:45 AM
this video proves nothing. Amare is a hyped player, albeit a good one, but Lee could very well be better. (Rebounding) Their scoring and defensive 'presence' is comparable. If Lee were on the Suns, excluding last year, the Suns may have had better success in the playoffs, since we don't know how Lee would do on a winning team having been on losing ones in New York the past 5 years. No one expected him to be the Knicks best player either. Now Lee will have two players who can really play, Monta Ellis and Steph Curry. Amare has been on good teams his entire career. This season should be an interesting one for the Knicks and Amare Stoudamire.

bklynny67
08-18-2010, 03:56 AM
Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not saying adding Amare makes us contenders or anything, I'm just saying adding Amare over Lee is an upgrade and makes us better.

It's like if the Nets were to get Derrick Rose over Devin Harris and people would say adding Rose to the Nets doesn't make them better. They are both great players but we all know who's better and obviously they would improve. Same with Amare to NY

OMG this isnt even a comparison. Amar'e and Lee are very comparable players. Rose is MUCH MUCH better than Harris. this is one of the worst comparisons i've seen someone make. lol

koreancabbage
08-18-2010, 07:45 AM
Amare doesn't hustle or REBOUND. Lee does

Lee has all the intangibles as a 2nd/3rd option player on the court. and Lee passes the ball.

Amare is a black hole without Nash. Without the benefit of an elite pass first point guard, who cares if Amare gets 20 plus points, does not matter that the fact he doesn't make others better around him (people who say Amare is better than Lee by a mile- they are similar but each posses skills the other doesn't have)

J-Relo
08-18-2010, 08:12 AM
C'mon! Amare is better than Lee. (offense and even defense, maybe not rebounding and passing) :eyebrow:

Also NY gets more fans (more money) just because of a bigger name.

Sandman
08-18-2010, 11:08 AM
OMG this isnt even a comparison. Amar'e and Lee are very comparable players. Rose is MUCH MUCH better than Harris. this is one of the worst comparisons i've seen someone make. lol
I think thats the point he was trying to make. Rose's and Harris' numbers are still similar despite that.

bklynny67
08-19-2010, 12:38 AM
I think thats the point he was trying to make. Rose's and Harris' numbers are still similar despite that.

oh damn... you're right.. my fault. i take that back. good comparison.

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 08:34 AM
I would take Lee at $80 million over Amare at $100 all day long

Slimsim
08-19-2010, 09:08 AM
Besides Do you think Melo would have mention going to NY and teaming up with David lee ? That's another reason why Amare is better He Attracts other star players.

bkmikeyy
08-19-2010, 09:10 AM
I would take Lee at $80 million over Amare at $100 all day long

would you take Lee and Darko for $105 mill over Amare for $100 mill? 20 million over the life of a contract for someone CLEARLY better is not a big deal, especially if it eventually puts you over the cap and lets you use the MLE. I really don't get it a few months ago Lee was "the most overrated player in the league", now he is arguably better than a top 3-4 PF in the game? Also the Knicks got great value for Lee, I would probably trade Lee for Randolph straight up (since everyone is so obsessed with contracts, Randolph makes 3 million).

bkmikeyy
08-19-2010, 09:11 AM
Besides Do you think Melo would have mention going to NY and teaming up with David lee ? That's another reason why Amare is better He Attracts other star players.

chances are SOMEONE else will come to join Amare in the near future...whether it be Melo, Paul, Parker or somebody else.

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 09:14 AM
would you take Lee and Darko for $105 mill over Amare for $100 mill? 20 million over the life of a contract for someone CLEARLY better is not a big deal, especially if it eventually puts you over the cap and lets you use the MLE. I really don't get it a few months ago Lee was "the most overrated player in the league", now he is arguably better than a top 3-4 PF in the game? Also the Knicks got great value for Lee, I would probably trade Lee for Randolph straight up (since everyone is so obsessed with contracts, Randolph makes 3 million).

how is this relevant? The thread is Amare/Lee. And there is no difference between their production, and one is paid a lot more than the other.
Lee is overrated. But so is Amare. They are nearly interchangeable imo, so I take the cheaper one.

PHX2daDEATH
08-19-2010, 09:27 AM
Getting to the foul line is also another reason Amare is better then Lee.. Amare is probably one of the best in the league at drawing fouls.. i think thats one area thats going to hurt the Suns this year..

bkmikeyy
08-19-2010, 09:36 AM
how is this relevant? The thread is Amare/Lee. And there is no difference between their production, and one is paid a lot more than the other.
Lee is overrated. But so is Amare. They are nearly interchangeable imo, so I take the cheaper one.

its relevant because 20 million recently buys you absolutely nothing so I would rather have my owner spend his money on a superstar, than penny pinch and then use the remains on some bum.

tredigs
08-19-2010, 09:38 AM
its relevant because 20 million recently buys you absolutely nothing so I would rather have my owner spend his money on a superstar, than penny pinch and then use the remains on some bum.

I like how we live in a time where saving 20 million dollars is considered "penny pinching" and not worth it for "some bum".

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 09:38 AM
its relevant because 20 million recently buys you absolutely nothing so I would rather have my owner spend his money on a superstar, than penny pinch and then use the remains on some bum.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=stoudam01&y1=2010&p2=leeda02&y2=2010

They are virtually identical. Amare has a slightly better TS%, and gets to the line more, but Lee is a far better rebounder and passer. They are both very good players, but neither is deserving of the term, "superstar"
And I stand by my statement. I would take Lee at $80 million over Amare at $100 million.

bkmikeyy
08-19-2010, 09:40 AM
I like how we live in a time where saving 20 million dollars is considered "penny pinching" and not worth it for "some bum".

Its not your money, some people take it too literally. Truth is the kind of contracts players have been getting, 20 million doesn't get you much. Especially when once you are over the cap you get the MLE which is larger. I don't care about my owner saving money, I want the better players. Guys that get 20 million dollar contracts can be replaced by the same talent level for the vet. min.

bkmikeyy
08-19-2010, 09:43 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=stoudam01&y1=2010&p2=leeda02&y2=2010

They are virtually identical. Amare has a slightly better TS%, and gets to the line more, but Lee is a far better rebounder. They are both very good players, but neither is deserving of the term, "superstar"
And I stand by my statement. I would take Lee at $80 million over Amare at $100 million.

no chance anyone would have ever said Lee and Amare are virtually identical 3 months ago. Getting "numbers" and rebounds on a 29 win dysfunctional team that has ZERO size and rebounding other than you and doing it for the first time in your career is not VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL to a guy who has been doing it his whole career while being one of the biggest reasons (and nash of course) his team has been successful every year. Amare and Marbury was a playoff team in a tough West, what did Lee and Marbury do in the soft East together again??

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 09:51 AM
no chance anyone would have ever said Lee and Amare are virtually identical 3 months ago. Getting "numbers" and rebounds on a 29 win dysfunctional team that has ZERO size and rebounding other than you and doing it for the first time in your career is not VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL to a guy who has been doing it his whole career while being one of the biggest reasons (and nash of course) his team has been successful every year. Amare and Marbury was a playoff team in a tough West, what did Lee and Marbury do in the soft East together again??

you clearly don't understand how to read numbers then.
And yes, 3 months ago, I would have said the exact same thing. A year ago even.

Slimsim
08-19-2010, 10:04 AM
no chance anyone would have ever said Lee and Amare are virtually identical 3 months ago. Getting "numbers" and rebounds on a 29 win dysfunctional team that has ZERO size and rebounding other than you and doing it for the first time in your career is not VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL to a guy who has been doing it his whole career while being one of the biggest reasons (and nash of course) his team has been successful every year. Amare and Marbury was a playoff team in a tough West, what did Lee and Marbury do in the soft East together again??

I agree. How many times have you heard Well He's putting up good numbers on a bad team? Amare played on a good team And still got his points beside Pheonix have more than 1 rebounder while lee was our only rebounder. So i guess Monta Ellis is Right on the same Level as Brandon Roy since there stats are almost identical. Also i remember Nash saying that Amare made him a better Player So give the guy credit for Phoenix Success for the pass few years.

bkmikeyy
08-19-2010, 10:05 AM
you clearly don't understand how to read numbers then.
And yes, 3 months ago, I would have said the exact same thing. A year ago even.

Numbers don't show everything. Lee was the only player that belongs in the post on the Knicks roster last year, so his rebounds were higher than they should be. He is an efficient scorer but a lot of that has to do with how he played out of position and had the jump shot and quickness advantage over traditional bigs, but at the same time he got abused on the defensive end for the same reason. I like Lee, but he is not even an All Star player.

GSRaider
08-19-2010, 10:07 AM
Look what happend to Shawn Marion when he stopped playing with one of the greatest passers of all time,and David Lee is underated.wait n see

I agree

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 10:07 AM
I agree. How many times have you heard Well He's putting up good numbers on a bad team. Amare played on a good team and even help the Pheonix suns Get to the finals. So i guess Monta Ellis is Right on the same Level as Brandon Roy since there stats are almost identical

this is such a dumb statement. It is actually more difficult to put up efficient numbers on a bad team.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=ellismo01&y1=2010&p2=roybr01&y2=2010

your example is terrible. Roy takes a dump on Monta

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 10:12 AM
Numbers don't show everything. Lee was the only player that belongs in the post on the Knicks roster last year, so his rebounds were higher than they should be. He is an efficient scorer but a lot of that has to do with how he played out of position and had the jump shot and quickness advantage over traditional bigs, but at the same time he got abused on the defensive end for the same reason. I like Lee, but he is not even an All Star player.

Lee's defensive rebound rate is so much better. Rebound rate doesn't care what team you are on, or how fast or slow you play. It tells us how many rebounds, percentage wise, a player grabs of all available rebounds while on the floor. Lee is a better rebounder in any scenario you put him in, unless he is playing with Dwight Howard maybe.
Amare also has a higher usage, meaning the ball goes through his hands more often. He also is surrounded by better talent. Then why does he assist on far less posessions than David Lee?
There is no denying Amare is a better pure scorer. But Lee is a better rebounder and passer, and they are equally below average on defense.

And if you think all star teams make a player, that is ridiculous.

scutch11
08-19-2010, 10:23 AM
Lee's defensive rebound rate is so much better. Rebound rate doesn't care what team you are on, or how fast or slow you play. It tells us how many rebounds, percentage wise, a player grabs of all available rebounds while on the floor. Lee is a better rebounder in any scenario you put him in, unless he is playing with Dwight Howard maybe.
Amare also has a higher usage, meaning the ball goes through his hands more often. He also is surrounded by better talent. Then why does he assist on far less posessions than David Lee?
There is no denying Amare is a better pure scorer. But Lee is a better rebounder and passer, and they are equally below average on defense.

And if you think all star teams make a player, that is ridiculous.

im not saying amare is a better rebounder than lee because hes not. but you have to understand that a very large reason why lee rebounds at such a high percentage is because there was no one else on the knicks who actually tried to rebound other than him. yea he got a lot, but he was also one of the only other players doing it. his frontcourt mates were al harrington, and gallinari. not the best rebounders. when we actually got another good rebounder (even though it was a very small sample size) in earl barron, lees rpg and percentage of boards taken in both went down

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 10:27 AM
im not saying amare is a better rebounder than lee because hes not. but you have to understand that a very large reason why lee rebounds at such a high percentage is because there was no one else on the knicks who actually tried to rebound other than him. yea he got a lot, but he was also one of the only other players doing it. his frontcourt mates were al harrington, and gallinari. not the best rebounders. when we actually got another good rebounder (even though it was a very small sample size) in earl barron, lees rpg and percentage of boards taken in both went down

Amare, over his entire career, has never had rebounding numbers close to Lee. Not even a single outlier year. He is a subpar rebounding PF. Its always been a knock. Amare is a scoring machine. He doesn't do much else. Kinda been that way his whole career.
Its fairly simple really. Amare-better, and more efficient scorer. Lee- better rebounder, better passer. Both are equal everywhere else. And for the $20 million difference, I take Lee any day of the week

bkmikeyy
08-19-2010, 10:29 AM
Lee's defensive rebound rate is so much better. Rebound rate doesn't care what team you are on, or how fast or slow you play. It tells us how many rebounds, percentage wise, a player grabs of all available rebounds while on the floor. Lee is a better rebounder in any scenario you put him in, unless he is playing with Dwight Howard maybe.
Amare also has a higher usage, meaning the ball goes through his hands more often. He also is surrounded by better talent. Then why does he assist on far less posessions than David Lee?
There is no denying Amare is a better pure scorer. But Lee is a better rebounder and passer, and they are equally below average on defense.

And if you think all star teams make a player, that is ridiculous.

How does it not matter who your other frontcourt player is when getting defensive rebounds? Al Harrington wont be taking too many rebounds away from you. If you watched Knick games Lee pads his stats for rebounds A LOT, he is always the first one getting the easy rebounds, even stealing them from teammates. The few weeks Lee played with a semi true center, Barron, his rebounds dipped significantly. Again I love Lee, but he is not the player Amare is. He is definitely a better passer and probably a better rebounder (but not by as much as it seems) but Amare is better at just about everything else, I wonder how many centers/PFs average under a half a block a game.

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 10:43 AM
How does it not matter who your other frontcourt player is when getting defensive rebounds? Al Harrington wont be taking too many rebounds away from you. If you watched Knick games Lee pads his stats for rebounds A LOT, he is always the first one getting the easy rebounds, even stealing them from teammates. The few weeks Lee played with a semi true center, Barron, his rebounds dipped significantly. Again I love Lee, but he is not the player Amare is.

It does matter a bit. But there have not been enough dominant rebounders in the way of either player to effect them that much. And I would WANT my PF/C stealing rebounds from anyone, that means he wants it. And getting a rebound off your own miss does not pad efficiency, its a neutral number, though it gives you an additional rebound.
And you are missing it. Lee provides nearly the same amount of win shares on a bad team, as Amare does on a good team. They are fairly equal, and I wouldn't fault someone for wanting Lee outright over Amare from a basketball standpoint. An owner would prefer the market appeal of Amare if it was a close call however

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 10:44 AM
I will leave it at this. I am not saying WHO is better outright. I am saying, they are so close, and I have provided numbers stating this, that I take the $20 million in savings any day my friend

RCarlson85
08-19-2010, 10:48 AM
I think Amare is better than Lee, but not as much better as some would like to think. He is certainly not worth the pay increase that he gets over Lee. Amare is a better offensive player, mostly because he has better post moves and more range. I don't really think either player is worth mentioning on defense. Lee is definitely a superior rebounder. He is a double-double machine while Amare is somewhat of a disappointment in the rebounding department. Amare also has a history of injuries while Lee doesn't. I think the main thing that I respect Lee for is that he hustles all the time and I just don't see that same effort from Amare night in and night out. That said, I still would rather have had Amare on the Heat than Bosh, so I do like Amare.

Sandman
08-19-2010, 11:02 AM
Its not your money, some people take it too literally.
1- its not about spending our own money, its about the salary cap and opportunity cost

2- it definitely is our money. who buys tickets, jerseys, hats, posters, etc.?

bkmikeyy
08-19-2010, 11:16 AM
1- its not about spending our own money, its about the salary cap and opportunity cost

2- it definitely is our money. who buys tickets, jerseys, hats, posters, etc.?

That 20 million over 5 years changes almost nothing in terms of flexibility. The point is to sign two stars to the max and not think about cap space for the next 5-6 years, adding players through the MLE and grooming our young cheap talent. Saving the 4 million a year on Lee doesn't help build a contender in any way. Knicks will go over the cap to sign Gallo, Randolph, Chandler etc when its time. IF a player like Melo would be considering going to the Knicks with Lee on the roster (he wouldn't), adding him would leave the Knicks with zero flexibility anyways cap wise. Lee is a nice numbers guy, he also has like a 35% winning percentage in his years in NYC. The tickets wont go up because the owner spent a few mill a year more on a player.

Sandman
08-19-2010, 11:33 AM
I dont think you should go over the cap to re-sign guys unless you already have a contending team.

The risk with Stoudemire comes with his health. I think just about any team would have given him that max deal. Stoudemire is the kind of player you can build around as one of your core players because he is an elite scorer. I don't think Lee is a difference maker, but I do think hes the perfect 4th, 5th or 6th man. He fills big needs, he's a great rebounder and he does his job and gives 100%.

I think Lee could be worth every penny of his 80m deal but I think that players like Lee (and Gortat or JJ Redick, to give some examples) can be integral to a future championship run, but big long contracts make it harder to acquire the main pieces for a championship run.

They add dollars towards the salary cap and take you from maybe 3rd in the lottery to 10th or 11th. Thats how we end up in a stagnant pond instead of madison square garden. But on a team like the Magic, where they're already made a finals and are already at like double the cap, they can overpay gortat or redick whoever they want. I don't care if they're in the 2x double tax on the player's contract, at that point hey its not my money ;).

Amare IS that type of player but we still need more. He's an asset because he's a scorer, not a defender or a prolific rebounder I'm not trying to kid myself. The risk here comes if he misses significant games, which would handicap them worse than a Lee contract would.

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 11:38 AM
I personally feel Amare could very well be a 2nd option on a championship team, but will need to be surrounded by defenders and rebounders.

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 11:38 AM
and a #1

bkmikeyy
08-19-2010, 11:49 AM
Well hopefully for the Knicks sake theres more help on the way. If they only get Amare and remain a 7-10 seed in the east for the forseeable future, then i agree he is a bad investment. But I think the plan is to add another All Star player to pair him with and in that case he is a good start. Him and another All Star make a team at least a borderline contender...same cannot be said for Lee and another star.

Sandman
08-19-2010, 11:50 AM
yup, my thoughts exactly

Hawkeye15
08-19-2010, 12:10 PM
Well hopefully for the Knicks sake theres more help on the way. If they only get Amare and remain a 7-10 seed in the east for the forseeable future, then i agree he is a bad investment. But I think the plan is to add another All Star player to pair him with and in that case he is a good start. Him and another All Star make a team at least a borderline contender...same cannot be said for Lee and another star.

or for sure. Adding Melo and Parker would propel them to a top 3 seed, Boston is on the way down after this year (could be this year if health doesn't hold up). Its not like I am calling NY garbage, and quite frankly, if they build correctly, they have the means to go over the cap later by a lot to retain and compete