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View Full Version : Why do people use superstars before LeBron as example of them not leaving their teams



NetsPaint
08-12-2010, 02:17 AM
MJ, Magic, Bird all played for big cities and championship contending teams. Who knows if they would have joined forces with other superstars, maybe they would have wanted some bigger fame and money also...

BlkProphet79
08-12-2010, 02:34 AM
Probably because we cant forecast the future. Naturally, the past is all we have to really base things on.

championships
08-12-2010, 03:12 AM
MJ said he would'nt have.... Plus his situation was very similar. Bulls were awful when they got MJ. He turned them into champs. It did take awhile (7 seasons). Cavs were awful when they got LBJ. He made them contenders but he decided to bolt in his 7th year, instead of producing a title in CLE

tredigs
08-12-2010, 03:37 AM
MJ said he would'nt have.... Plus his situation was very similar. Bulls were awful when they got MJ. He turned them into champs. It did take awhile (7 seasons). Cavs were awful when they got LBJ. He made them contenders but he decided to bolt in his 7th year, instead of producing a title in CLE

They also got TWO top ten draft picks in the same season, two years after Jordan came into the league (you know them as Horace Grant and Pippen). Please don't compare the early 90's Bulls cast to the late 2000's Cavs man.

BrotherRedz
08-12-2010, 03:43 AM
Mo disappears when it matters the most (twice already, clearly empty promises)

You cant see Pippen do something like that.

tredigs
08-12-2010, 03:44 AM
I wrote this somewhere else, little long for a thread but whatever:

I'd like to ask why a player in basketball should be loyal, in the sense that if they don't think they're in the best place to further maximize what they're capable to do in the decade or so they have as a healthy basketball player, why should they feel obligated to remain with their assigned team?

The keyword there is assigned. Every year, the 60 young athletes drafted into the NBA from college and abroad are not given a choice as to what organization they were assigned to. And this is a league where players are on a seemingly constantly churning swap meet, further watering down the feeling of "family" that certain fans and media outlets like to propagate as the ideal (if not the norm). You'll rarely find a role player smashed by the public if they decide to part ways with their current organization in search of a situation that better fits them. So, what is it about the great players that some feel should be indebted to a team for life, and if they leave it's akin to being a traitor. Assuming that they gave it their all in their time playing for an organization, the moral obligation that the best of the best face is just not fair to them.

This isn't a dictatorship; I'm a fan of the idea that a player should be allotted at least one "free pass" in their basketball career to actually decide for once where it is they want to play, rather than the organizations, media, or even the fans. These guys worked their tail off their entire lives to get to the point they're at, it's the least they deserve, no?

We have to remember that all situations are not created equal, and some players are brought into the league playing for organizations that will have a much tougher time drawing top level talent (I'm looking at you, Cleveland). It's highly circumstantial and involves luck as much as anything else. Should a guy like Kobe Bryant or Tim Duncan really be given any more credit than someone like Tracy McGrady or Lebron? The prior two were drafted into the most ideal situations possible; amazing coaches, fantastic ownership and two of the top three centers in the league right along their side to help them grow and flourish under the spotlight of the playoffs without having to immediately be "The Guy".

Beyond that, let's not forget that when things got rough for Kobe, he demanded a trade from the organization (in a non contract year) if they were unable to turn it around immediately (and who can blame him, that cast was loathsome). Without the miracle deal that the fantastic Lakers front office was able to pull off for Pau Gasol (though, admittedly, with the strides his younger brother Marc has taken, it is looking to be far less lopsided at this point), then Kobe would be a Chicago Bull right now. One could compare it to a man who threatened to cheat on his wife if he was not given everything he feels he's owed to another man who left his wife after they realized everything was not working out and were legally separated. I think that with the advent of "The Decision" (which is actually the one facet that was over the top and handled poorly by LBJ in this whole process) people lost track of just how well he handled the most significant off season move in league history. He couldn't go one game without being hounded by the media, yet he kept his cool and always maintained that he "did not know yet" and would take everything into account after the post-season. Then, on the first day he possibly could have signed, he did just that. Do I wish it was to a team other than the Heat? Yup, sure do. But that's not my decision, and what right do I truly have to call him out on that? I personally believe that both the Thunder and the Lakers have a legitimate shot at beating that team over the next half decade of the super-threes contract, so is it much of a stretch to consider that this signing was just an attempt to remain competitive with the elite of the league?

We have to realize that the best player Lebron had the fortune of playing with during his Cleveland tenure was one season of a young Carlos Boozer, who immediately booked town when Utah was able to offer him more money to play for the prestigious and perennial playoff organization. And Lebron was only a rookie at that point, while Boozer just was a sophomore, so we couldn't have expected them to make any noise together.

As each progressive free agency came and went, the Cavs management consistently failed to sign a marquee free agent (not once did they have a top 5 player at any position to play alongside James... please bight your tongue before bringing up the pseudo all star season of Mo Williams). They were always a team that played tough D and could rely on Lebron to win the majority of the regular season games, but when iti came to playing the teams with elite defenses of their own, fantastic coaching, and strong front-courts? They just could not compete for an entire series. And rest assure, no player in the NBA could have taken that squad to a title (possibly no player in NBA history).

Who can really blame the guy for wanting to spend the rest of his prime with some of his good friends in a marquee American city. And as amazing as this current Heat team is, top to bottom they still will have trouble competing against the length of the Lakers. Yet we praise Kobe for his loyalty? Please. All situations are not created equal, and I think more of us need to respect that.

Hindy27
08-12-2010, 04:41 AM
Mo disappears when it matters the most (twice already, clearly empty promises)

You cant see Pippen do something like that.
He did, when the Bulls were losing to the Pistons, Pippen was Rodman's *****. Pippen was often called mentally weak until the Bulls started winning championships.
It took a couple of years for him to harden up and become the player he did. That's why there was talk about whether Pippen and Rodman would get along when Rodman went to the Bulls.

Jordan stayed with the Bulls while Pippen, and the team, got better. LBJ's career pretty much mirrors Jordan's all the way up to this off season. Jordan stuck it out and LBJ gave up and took off to a loaded team.

knickfan33
08-12-2010, 04:57 AM
MJ, Magic, Bird all played for big cities and championship contending teams. Who knows if they would have joined forces with other superstars, maybe they would have wanted some bigger fame and money also...

good job naming three succesful guys..... how a bout the other 47 greatest players of all time who stayed with their teams....

stop making lebron threads... noone cares, he ruined his name, its done... no turing back

knickfan33
08-12-2010, 04:59 AM
oh yeah, none of those guys ever blew playoff games like lebron

Wade>You
08-12-2010, 05:07 AM
MJ, Magic, Bird all played for big cities and championship contending teams. Who knows if they would have joined forces with other superstars, maybe they would have wanted some bigger fame and money also...I think the difference is they didn't have to leave their teams in order to play with superstars. Of course, these guys egos' have grown to such large proportions that they've completely dissed their HOF teammates. It's sad that kids today won't know about KAJ, Worthy, Parish, Cedric Maxwell, Kevin McHale Dennis Johnson, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, etc etc etc etc etc.

Heater4life
08-12-2010, 05:22 AM
They also got TWO top ten draft picks in the same season, two years after Jordan came into the league (you know them as Horace Grant and Pippen). Please don't compare the early 90's Bulls cast to the late 2000's Cavs man.

Who? They dont matter.

MJ wouldve never left chicago, he wanted to be the man. Lebron sucks!



:violin:

Khalifa21
08-12-2010, 08:41 AM
All those players were already in big market cities that they enjoyed living in. They also had HOF teammates. MJ had Pippen, Magic had Kareem and Worthy and Bird had McHale and Parish.

LeBron had Mo Williams and lived in Cleveland... You can't blame him for wanting to leave.

JordansBulls
08-12-2010, 08:44 AM
MJ, Magic, Bird all played for big cities and championship contending teams. Who knows if they would have joined forces with other superstars, maybe they would have wanted some bigger fame and money also...

The Bulls had the 2nd worst record in the NBA in 1984 the year before they drafted MJ Only Indiana was worse.

Bulls were 27-55 and Indiana was 26-56

Bulls were not a winning organization until MJ came along and and since he left still is a losing organization

Me personally I value strongly guys who take a team from the bottom to the top. Who take an organization who never won anything and turn them into winners.

Examples:

MJ with the Bulls
Hakeem with the Rockets
Isiah with the Pistons
Kareem with the Bucks
Russell with the Celtics

JordansBulls
08-12-2010, 08:47 AM
Also the problem isn't Lebron leaving but rather who he teamed up with.


Jordan would need to join the 2nd best player in the league in 1990 and needs to take a borderline Top10 player with him. Just to make that clear here:

PER 2009/10 season:

#1 James
#2 Wade
#4 Bosh

Three of the Top4 in PER are joining the same team. That would be equal to Jordan, Ewing and Barkley are building a team in New York or Philadelphia, because all three are feeling they can't win it with their own team. That is the right analogy here. Just imagine that. It would be seen as a **** move by Jordan, no doubt about that.

in the cases of Magic and Bird they came into winning franchises. Lakers already had the best player in the league in Kareem and the Celtics had already won 2 titles in the 70's in '74 and '76. Bulls had never done anything and were the 2nd worst team in the league in 1984 before drafting MJ. So you can use that Magic and Bird had help there entire careers. MJ did not.

There is a difference between how MJ got Pippen. MJ basically got Pippen who was a 8 ppg and 4 rpg player.
He never just got a Pippen who was already a great player.
That is my point with Lebron. True he never had a true star beside him, but he always managed to get guys who were already proven. Shaq was already a 3x finals mvp, 1x league mvp, Jamsion was a career 20 and 8 player, and Mo was a 17 and 6 player before ever playing with Lebron. Only guy who had the potential to be a star was JJ Hickson.

Besides you don't get the best record in the league 2 years in a row without having talent and support on your team.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you would be supporting Lebron more than Wade anyway. Wade is the one who has been with your franchise from day 1 and you got people thinking he is now the 2nd option or 2nd best on the team when he really is the only one that has proven he can win as the man and has done so in stunning fashion.

Double_R
08-12-2010, 09:17 AM
It boils down to stars being disappointed in Lebron's competitive nature and that's it... They, like most people wanted to see Lebron play against Wade, not with Wade... I feel like Lebron who had a chance to be one of the top 3 dudes ever to play the game, but instead gave up on that and went the easy way out. Now no matter how many rings Lebron gets, they will never be the same as if he had done it the way that most superstar wing players do it, with good role players and a good big. Instead of a superstar team, which in turn discounts all your accomplishments.

OA SLAY
08-12-2010, 09:19 AM
When has a player ever left after being crowned 2 time MVP and multiple time division leader?

OA SLAY
08-12-2010, 09:23 AM
Wades response on Late night talk show on playing with Lebron In clevland was basically **** no! Maybe it's just the city? I don't no.

S-Dot
08-12-2010, 09:28 AM
At the end of the day, he felt he did all he could do, and still wasn't able to win a Championship in Cleveland. He feels he's in a better situation to win multiple championships.

Do I respect his decision...no. But I understand it.

Do I think MJ,Bird, or Magic would have done it...no. All of those 3 players were in different situations themselves though. MJ is the greatest competitor, Magic came into a great situation in a great city, and Larry played for the most storied franchise.

mark1125
08-12-2010, 09:36 AM
Why do people insist on posting and re-posting stupid Lebron threads OVER AND OVER AND OVER?

:horse:

redhorse
08-12-2010, 10:01 AM
Also the problem isn't Lebron leaving but rather who he teamed up with.


Jordan would need to join the 2nd best player in the league in 1990 and needs to take a borderline Top10 player with him. Just to make that clear here:

PER 2009/10 season:

#1 James
#2 Wade
#4 Bosh

Three of the Top4 in PER are joining the same team. That would be equal to Jordan, Ewing and Barkley are building a team in New York or Philadelphia, because all three are feeling they can't win it with their own team. That is the right analogy here. Just imagine that. It would be seen as a **** move by Jordan, no doubt about that.

in the cases of Magic and Bird they came into winning franchises. Lakers already had the best player in the league in Kareem and the Celtics had already won 2 titles in the 70's in '74 and '76. Bulls had never done anything and were the 2nd worst team in the league in 1984 before drafting MJ. So you can use that Magic and Bird had help there entire careers. MJ did not.

There is a difference between how MJ got Pippen. MJ basically got Pippen who was a 8 ppg and 4 rpg player.
He never just got a Pippen who was already a great player.
That is my point with Lebron. True he never had a true star beside him, but he always managed to get guys who were already proven. Shaq was already a 3x finals mvp, 1x league mvp, Jamsion was a career 20 and 8 player, and Mo was a 17 and 6 player before ever playing with Lebron. Only guy who had the potential to be a star was JJ Hickson.

Besides you don't get the best record in the league 2 years in a row without having talent and support on your team.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you would be supporting Lebron more than Wade anyway. Wade is the one who has been with your franchise from day 1 and you got people thinking he is now the 2nd option or 2nd best on the team when he really is the only one that has proven he can win as the man and has done so in stunning fashion.


:clap: Thank you. I have been saying the same thing when people say "Well jordan had Pippen". Its not like pippen was a free agent and the bulls got him. The most established player Jordan had was prob Dennis rodman and that is it.

Da Knicks
08-12-2010, 10:02 AM
It boils down to stars being disappointed in Lebron's competitive nature and that's it... They, like most people wanted to see Lebron play against Wade, not with Wade... I feel like Lebron who had a chance to be one of the top 3 dudes ever to play the game, but instead gave up on that and went the easy way out. Now no matter how many rings Lebron gets, they will never be the same as if he had done it the way that most superstar wing players do it, with good role players and a good big. Instead of a superstar team, which in turn discounts all your accomplishments.

Then again if Lebron would of had all the records but no rings he would be mentioned as another Karl Malone. It was a no win situation for him since most people just want to hate the guy.

DCSportsIsPain
08-12-2010, 10:32 AM
Also the problem isn't Lebron leaving but rather who he teamed up with.


Jordan would need to join the 2nd best player in the league in 1990 and needs to take a borderline Top10 player with him. Just to make that clear here:

PER 2009/10 season:

#1 James
#2 Wade
#4 Bosh

Three of the Top4 in PER are joining the same team. That would be equal to Jordan, Ewing and Barkley are building a team in New York or Philadelphia, because all three are feeling they can't win it with their own team. That is the right analogy here. Just imagine that. It would be seen as a **** move by Jordan, no doubt about that.

in the cases of Magic and Bird they came into winning franchises. Lakers already had the best player in the league in Kareem and the Celtics had already won 2 titles in the 70's in '74 and '76. Bulls had never done anything and were the 2nd worst team in the league in 1984 before drafting MJ. So you can use that Magic and Bird had help there entire careers. MJ did not.

There is a difference between how MJ got Pippen. MJ basically got Pippen who was a 8 ppg and 4 rpg player.
He never just got a Pippen who was already a great player.
That is my point with Lebron. True he never had a true star beside him, but he always managed to get guys who were already proven. Shaq was already a 3x finals mvp, 1x league mvp, Jamsion was a career 20 and 8 player, and Mo was a 17 and 6 player before ever playing with Lebron. Only guy who had the potential to be a star was JJ Hickson.

Besides you don't get the best record in the league 2 years in a row without having talent and support on your team.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you would be supporting Lebron more than Wade anyway. Wade is the one who has been with your franchise from day 1 and you got people thinking he is now the 2nd option or 2nd best on the team when he really is the only one that has proven he can win as the man and has done so in stunning fashion.

Excellent post. I question why a player on a team with the best record in the NBA and a two-time MVP feels the team isn't good enough to get to the next level. He somehow feels by being less important, less valuable, less burdened that he has a better chance at team success. Regardless of who had or did not have who on their team, What is comes down to is that none of the other players mentioned walked out on their teammates, their ownership and their cities in pursuit of easy championships. And none of them would have done it in the classless manner in which it was done by LeBron James. It doesn't make LeBron less of a basketball player. It makes him out of touch with reality, a prima donna, everything we have come to loathe about NBA players. LeBron perpetuates the stereotype that all NBA players care about is themselves. Apparently, what the mother of his children wanted wasn't important either. Mentally, LeBron is still 15. At this point it is highly unlikely he will ever be a man, much less the man.

Klivlend
08-12-2010, 05:41 PM
They also got TWO top ten draft picks in the same season, two years after Jordan came into the league (you know them as Horace Grant and Pippen). Please don't compare the early 90's Bulls cast to the late 2000's Cavs man.

+1 thank you.

Steelers23_06
08-12-2010, 06:25 PM
i hate how people try to take this away from lebron. it doesnt make you worse because he chose to leave. i cant believe people want to bash him for leaving when his contract was up. you have the right to do that atleast he wasnt a complete dick about it like most players and demand a trade. he was classy. he did the decision for the 10 million viewers that watched it. it was the biggest free agent decision since shaq joining the lakers and pending on rings won it will prob. prove to be the biggest of all time. you cant knock him for that and everyone is like he needs to be "the man". but with all of these multistar teams around him he would have ended up like KG. KG wanted to bring the twolves a 'ship soooo bad but he just couldnt do it alone. and personally i think that is a HUGE reason why LBJ left because at the end of this seasons celts cavs series KG told him to get out while he can. your youth is a terrible thing to waste and i would rather see the super three put to waste than watch him try to do it by himself stayig loyal to a team that will trade you as soon as things get rough or release you and struggle to find another team or just not win it all (ie allen iverson, karl malone, tracy mcgrady, patrick ewing...the list goes on for days) so why be them when he has a chance to win rings.

Jamiecballer
08-12-2010, 06:40 PM
to original poster:

good question. obviously none of the other great players of the past ever had an opportunity like this but people like to believe their heroes wouldn't have done the same. it's part of the whole athlete superhero worship culture. it's very easy to say that they wouldn't have done the same thing when they couldn't have possibly done it anyways.... you see? it makes it so easy to be right this way!

icej
08-13-2010, 10:18 AM
Reminder: KoBE Bryant asked to be TRADED before LA got break and STOLE Gasol from Memphis.

Kobe clearly understands he cant do it without a big help, its just a matter of perspective.
LBJ can certainly be called a quitter but he can also certainly be called smart to take this move.

BrotherRedz
08-13-2010, 10:23 AM
The Rich got Richer (Boston and LA)

Danny Ainge and Kevin Mchale : KG trade (Remember Celtics fans wearing paperbags at their head)
LA and Jerry West: Gasol bamboozling trade (Kobe threatens to be a Bulls)

Without this, do you think LeBron would leave, damn Bron already would have won 1 or 2 rings by now.

BOSTON617
08-13-2010, 10:34 AM
good job naming three succesful guys..... how a bout the other 47 greatest players of all time who stayed with their teams....

stop making lebron threads... noone cares, he ruined his name, its done... no turing back

this.

b0nk
08-13-2010, 10:45 AM
Reminder: KoBE Bryant asked to be TRADED before LA got break and STOLE Gasol from Memphis.

Kobe clearly understands he cant do it without a big help, its just a matter of perspective.
LBJ can certainly be called a quitter but he can also certainly be called smart to take this move.
except, i doubt Kobe would've asked for a trade back then if he had a 60+ win team like Lebron

BrotherRedz
08-13-2010, 11:04 AM
except, i doubt Kobe would've asked for a trade back then if he had a 60+ win team like Lebron

Mike Brown + Kobe

ummmm yeah... think of the possibilities

WeBallin
08-13-2010, 11:20 AM
Bottom Line is this lebron was thrown in the lime light as bein this ultimate athlete which he is able to fill up a stat line, Even sein him in High school he was always Much better then everyone else so he played the game as rounded as one who could an he done it very well with balance, but he was never a clucth player ever, yeah he had a great series against the pistons back in that series a few years back, but if u really think about it, it was one of those magical season were he tapped into that potiental that every sees when they see this 6'8 all purpose Monster, but reaility is that LBJ is not able to Channel that mental level of competion an it highest level when the pressure becomes to great, he's no motivator, He's no Teacher or the Game, He's jus a Player that has Way above Average Ability for the game, an thats what seperates him from the greastest who played this games his inabilty to make Player around them better an max out teammates ability, So LBJ had no choice but to leave an Join other star players cause had he not he would be Mentioned as one the most gifted but no RING an i guess he would rahter be viewed as a Superstar who had conceded that he was not the man who could carry the load on his shoulders he did for 7 great years though but ultimately it was too much to bear!........