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View Full Version : With Chris Bosh Out Of The Picture How High Can Andrea Bargnani succeed ?



Kobe5RingKing
08-10-2010, 11:16 PM
Every Year He Got His Points Up

2010 Stats: 17 points a game

His Only 24. 7feet 250pounds

Will he still be a "Dirk" ?

SA5195
08-10-2010, 11:22 PM
He can succeed pretty high if he steps his rebounding up, and improve his help side defense. And be consistent at it.

But as a Raps fan, I can't imagine him leading this team to the playoffs. So I can't call him the franchise player.

king4day
08-10-2010, 11:26 PM
With no more Bosh doubleteams, it'll be harder to have him be effective. More eyes will be on him.

_KB24_
08-10-2010, 11:27 PM
Put it this way: Consider Dirk a Rolex and Bargnani a fake rolex, it appears to be the same from the outside but lacks quality in production :cool:

Sadds The Gr8
08-10-2010, 11:28 PM
With no more Bosh doubleteams, it'll be harder to have him be effective. More eyes will be on him.

maybe...but he'll get more looks so his scoring will surely improve. I think Bargs can be 24 PPG if he maxes his potential...but like SA said, I don't see him being able to carry our team to the playoffs. we're gonna be bad this year. I don't think he can be Dirk though.

5ass
08-10-2010, 11:29 PM
depends if toronto are able to pair him with a good defensive center

Tenacity
08-10-2010, 11:31 PM
I believe he can put up stats like 20 pts and about 8 rebounds'ish. I don't think he'll be able to carry our team. I can only see him as a "Scoring Leader" on the Raptors cause of his offensive game.

Sly Guy
08-10-2010, 11:35 PM
depends if toronto are able to pair him with a good defensive center

this.

dnewguy
08-10-2010, 11:37 PM
Every Year He Got His Points Up

2010 Stats: 17 points a game

His Only 24. 7feet 250pounds

Will he still be a "Dirk" ?

The Raptors will be in for a bad season, Bargnani is not a franchise player and will never be. He can hardly get a shot off in front of a shorter defender, he's slow, the definition of nonathletic and he has no leadership kills. His defense is terrible, he can be out-rebounded by Earl Boykins, and can also be pushed around by even a player as weak as Damon Jones. Just a totally no-skills, no moves and would never amount to a All-Star player IMO

Jays101
08-10-2010, 11:38 PM
depends if toronto are able to pair him with a good defensive center

right on, the less he has to worry about banging at the defensive end the more he can focus and dominate on offence. In addition, a traditional centre would clog the paint on Offence as well allowing bargs to utilize his shot and driving ability further

Brooklyn Mets
08-10-2010, 11:38 PM
i think its going to be harder for him this season without bosh on the team

Faycem
08-10-2010, 11:40 PM
As high as Towelie want him to be

http://citypaper.net/blogs/clog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/towelie.png

BkOriginalOne
08-10-2010, 11:41 PM
I'd say about 7, maybe 8 feet.

Jays101
08-10-2010, 11:46 PM
The Raptors will be in for a bad season, Bargnani is not a franchise player and will never be. He can hardly get a shot off in front of a shorter defender, he's slow, the definition of nonathletic and he has no leadership kills. His defense is terrible, he can be out-rebounded by Earl Boykins, and can also be pushed around by even a player as weak as Damon Jones. Just a totally no-skills, no moves and would never amount to a All-Star player IMO

lol wow so much hate on bargs........ I could agree at this point bargnani just wont ever be a true franchise player on a championship team and it is mainly because as you pointed out he doesnt have much leadership skills. But seriously non-athletic? have you seen this guy play, they dont call him il mago (the magician) for no reason, as a 7-footer the skill and athleticism he displays is amazing, his shot is not only effective against shorter defenders, but also he posts them up!!! thats what he has developed in his game over the past year. Contrary to what many people beleive his D is not terrible at all, he is a solid man to man defender but where he has problems is on help D because he is playing the 5 out of position, hes a natural PF. take any pf in the league and force them to play the C they will be a bit lost. And sure bargs rebounding isnt great, but its improving and i wouldnt be surprised to see him average 20+ and 10 this year. To say that he has no skills and no moves is idiotic, few players have the skillset this guy possesses, he definietly figures to be an all star if he is moved back to PF with a solid defensive 5 and puts his game together.

SA5195
08-10-2010, 11:49 PM
The Raptors will be in for a bad season, Bargnani is not a franchise player and will never be. He can hardly get a shot off in front of a shorter defender, he's slow, the definition of nonathletic and he has no leadership kills. His defense is terrible, he can be out-rebounded by Earl Boykins, and can also be pushed around by even a player as weak as Damon Jones. Just a totally no-skills, no moves and would never amount to a All-Star player IMO

I'm guessing you never saw Bargnani play lol.

GeekInThePink
08-10-2010, 11:50 PM
The Raptors will be in for a bad season, Bargnani is not a franchise player and will never be. He can hardly get a shot off in front of a shorter defender, he's slow, the definition of nonathletic and he has no leadership kills. His defense is terrible, he can be out-rebounded by Earl Boykins, and can also be pushed around by even a player as weak as Damon Jones. Just a totally no-skills, no moves and would never amount to a All-Star player IMO

It hurts me how dumb this statement is

Tmath
08-10-2010, 11:54 PM
The Raptors will be in for a bad season, Bargnani is not a franchise player and will never be. He can hardly get a shot off in front of a shorter defender, he's slow, the definition of nonathletic and he has no leadership kills. His defense is terrible, he can be out-rebounded by Earl Boykins, and can also be pushed around by even a player as weak as Damon Jones. Just a totally no-skills, no moves and would never amount to a All-Star player IMO

:facepalm: Typical Bandwagon Heat fan

yungballah15
08-10-2010, 11:57 PM
If they run plays for him that he can have success with, and is not to much pressure then just the traditional throw the ball in there and score, he can get at 23 ppg.

K1NG
08-11-2010, 12:06 AM
The Raptors will be in for a bad season, Bargnani is not a franchise player and will never be. He can hardly get a shot off in front of a shorter defender, he's slow, the definition of nonathletic and he has no leadership kills. His defense is terrible, he can be out-rebounded by Earl Boykins, and can also be pushed around by even a player as weak as Damon Jones. Just a totally no-skills, no moves and would never amount to a All-Star player IMO


this nigguh dunt know wat he talkin bout obv,go kill urself fhgget

ALL_i-Do_is-Win
08-11-2010, 12:07 AM
i think being realistic
he can be all star if he reaches his full potential but not "dirk"
i can't even see him as franchise player
this season he will get his stats around 21-23 with 7 -8 rebounds with less efficiency
he is good power forward but his defense is really bad and i don't ever see hims being a good defender
i think @ max potential he can be 24 and 9 guy with decent defense

Mplsman
08-11-2010, 12:07 AM
steroids.

OA SLAY
08-11-2010, 12:11 AM
Hes Gonna Crack so fast

Tmath
08-11-2010, 12:14 AM
steroids.

?

Green Storm
08-11-2010, 12:15 AM
He will be good, but he will not be as good as Dirk.

Dol-Fan
08-11-2010, 12:17 AM
The Raptors will be in for a bad season, Bargnani is not a franchise player and will never be. He can hardly get a shot off in front of a shorter defender, he's slow, the definition of nonathletic and he has no leadership kills. His defense is terrible, he can be out-rebounded by Earl Boykins, and can also be pushed around by even a player as weak as Damon Jones. Just a totally no-skills, no moves and would never amount to a All-Star player IMO

1) He's quicker than just about any C in the league, watch a game.

2) His man defense is very good (against PFs and Cs of similar size..obviously dominated by the Howards of the league, he surprisingly defends Yao very well), watch a game.

3) You're right, his help defense is terrible. He can block shots but his rotations are very, very slow.

4) Uhh...out-rebounded by Earl Boykins? No, he's not a good rebounding center. But he's no worse than say, Mehmet Okur. WATCH A GAME.

5) Out-muscled by Damon Jones? do I have to say this again? WATCH A FLIPPIN GAME.

6) Dude's already averaging 17/6/1.5 on 48% from the field a 40% from 3, and over 80% from the foul line. He's also 24. To say that he's no skilled and has NO chance to be an all-star is just stupid.

I don't know why I even bothered with this post, it wasn't so much to argue with you as it was to make sure no one actually takes you seriously.

The_905
08-11-2010, 12:22 AM
lol wow so much hate on bargs........ I could agree at this point bargnani just wont ever be a true franchise player on a championship team and it is mainly because as you pointed out he doesnt have much leadership skills. But seriously non-athletic? have you seen this guy play, they dont call him il mago (the magician) for no reason, as a 7-footer the skill and athleticism he displays is amazing, his shot is not only effective against shorter defenders, but also he posts them up!!! thats what he has developed in his game over the past year. Contrary to what many people beleive his D is not terrible at all, he is a solid man to man defender but where he has problems is on help D because he is playing the 5 out of position, hes a natural PF. take any pf in the league and force them to play the C they will be a bit lost. And sure bargs rebounding isnt great, but its improving and i wouldnt be surprised to see him average 20+ and 10 this year. To say that he has no skills and no moves is idiotic, few players have the skillset this guy possesses, he definietly figures to be an all star if he is moved back to PF with a solid defensive 5 and puts his game together.

:clap: Very well said.

GeekInThePink
08-11-2010, 12:23 AM
1) He's quicker than just about any C in the league, watch a game.

2) His man defense is very good (against PFs and Cs of similar size..obviously dominated by the Howards of the league, he surprisingly defends Yao very well), watch a game.

3) You're right, his help defense is terrible. He can block shots but his rotations are very, very slow.

4) Uhh...out-rebounded by Earl Boykins? No, he's not a good rebounding center. But he's no worse than say, Mehmet Okur. WATCH A GAME.

5) Out-muscled by Damon Jones? do I have to say this again? WATCH A FLIPPIN GAME.

6) Dude's already averaging 17/6/1.5 on 48% from the field a 40% from 3, and over 80% from the foul line. He's also 24. To say that he's no skilled and has NO chance to be an all-star is just stupid.

I don't know why I even bothered with this post, it wasn't so much to argue with you as it was to make sure no one actually takes you seriously.

You are god, couldn't agree more

Asham
08-11-2010, 12:29 AM
Bargnani's stats next year = 30 pts, 15 reb, 5 blocks and 10 assists per game

MacFitz92
08-11-2010, 12:42 AM
Put it this way: Consider Dirk a Rolex and Bargnani a fake rolex, it appears to be the same from the outside but lacks quality in production :cool:

This.

Rego247
08-11-2010, 12:53 AM
The Raptors will be in for a bad season, Bargnani is not a franchise player and will never be. He can hardly get a shot off in front of a shorter defender, he's slow, the definition of nonathletic and he has no leadership kills. His defense is terrible, he can be out-rebounded by Earl Boykins, and can also be pushed around by even a player as weak as Damon Jones. Just a totally no-skills, no moves and would never amount to a All-Star player IMO

this is straight up hate.

u called him slow? are u high?

Rego247
08-11-2010, 12:54 AM
1) He's quicker than just about any C in the league, watch a game.

2) His man defense is very good (against PFs and Cs of similar size..obviously dominated by the Howards of the league, he surprisingly defends Yao very well), watch a game.

3) You're right, his help defense is terrible. He can block shots but his rotations are very, very slow.

4) Uhh...out-rebounded by Earl Boykins? No, he's not a good rebounding center. But he's no worse than say, Mehmet Okur. WATCH A GAME.

5) Out-muscled by Damon Jones? do I have to say this again? WATCH A FLIPPIN GAME.

6) Dude's already averaging 17/6/1.5 on 48% from the field a 40% from 3, and over 80% from the foul line. He's also 24. To say that he's no skilled and has NO chance to be an all-star is just stupid.

I don't know why I even bothered with this post, it wasn't so much to argue with you as it was to make sure no one actually takes you seriously.

:clap:

diu9leilomo
08-11-2010, 12:56 AM
Bargnani's stats next year = 30 pts, 15 reb, 5 blocks and 10 assists per game

only?

van-city-male
08-11-2010, 12:59 AM
If Big Country Bryant Reeves can average 18 and 8 on what was the worst team in the nba, it just goes to show on a crappy team, anyone's number's can be inflated.

uprightciti
08-11-2010, 01:01 AM
good player
he will get david lee treatment

John Walls Era
08-11-2010, 01:17 AM
I still think he can avg. 20 pts a game. Hopefully he could get 8+ reb this year.

IversonIsKrazy
08-11-2010, 01:28 AM
I'd be excited this season if the Tyson Chandler trade went down. But it didn't, and we don't have that defensive-minded C, so Andrea will have to stay as a C, I see him getting 20ppg and 7rpg this season. He won't be able to lift our franchise, no way, but as some ppl have said before, he can be our scoring leader. Next season will either make or break Andrea

jimbobjarree
08-11-2010, 02:14 AM
lol...Andrea's a girls name

dnewguy
08-11-2010, 03:26 AM
I'm guessing you never saw Bargnani play lol.

That may be the case. I'll admit, I haven't seen him play much but I watched the Raptors towards the end of last season when they was battling the Bulls for the 8th spot. Bargnani had a chance to do something without Bosh down the stretch, he played horrible and couldn't even win games they were supposed to win in their building. If I remember correctly, the Raps got blown out one of those needed games in Toronto. I judged Bargnani from what I saw during that stretch. You may be right, maybe if I had watched him earlier, I may have a different opinion. Lets be clear here, Bargnani is not even a top 40 player in the NBA, that's why I just can't make a case for him as franchise player.

ChiSox219
08-11-2010, 03:33 AM
I like Bargs but he can't play defense, his footwork is horrendous. He'll benefit playing with Amir Johnson but the Raptors really need to get a bruiser at Center to unleash Bargnani's effectiveness.

I sent this to Kozelkid a couple days back, the lineup that could optimize Bargs effectiveness:

PG Jack
SG Ray Allen
SF Andrei Kirilineko
PF Andrea Bargnani
C Marcus Camby

Raptors could deal a few younger pieces to cut some salary and bring in Ray Allen. Then outbid for AK47 and deal Calderon+ for Camby because Oden will be a healthy beast.

Mile High Champ
08-11-2010, 10:14 AM
Why do people ask questions about Bargnani to people who never watch him play? The Raps had no games nationally broadcasted. Unless everyone here has NBA league pass, I am not sure how we have so many Bargnani experts on PSD.

Bargnani should see his stats go up next year. With more looks, typically comes with more scoring. He is a great on the ball defender, very underated. That being said, he is not a good help defender by any means. He needs to work on that. His rebounding numbers should improve now that he will be covering PF's and not center's. He will get a lot more weakside boards this year. His offensive game continues to improve. He is an oustanding shooter and very quick for his size. He knows how to take the ball to the basket and has a very quick first step.

I see him having a 20 and 8 year. He is getting better every season.

beasted86
08-11-2010, 10:19 AM
Bargnani is not a franchise player... plain and simple.

Whether he has good point and rebound averages next season is beside the point, and I think most Raptors fans know this. He is not a franchise player to build around and lead a team to a championship... Bosh wasn't even that.

Mile High Champ
08-11-2010, 10:21 AM
Bargnani is not a franchise player... plain and simple.

Whether he has good point and rebound averages next season is beside the point, and I think most Raptors fans know this. He is not a franchise player to build around and lead a team to a championship... Bosh wasn't even that.

Bosh is overrated.. He did nothing for us..

beasted86
08-11-2010, 10:23 AM
Bosh is overrated.. He did nothing for us..

Yet, he's better than Bargnani on both ends, and still wasn't a franchise player.

That's my point. Bargnani won't take that team anywhere as a 1st option. That's the truth... and I've always been under the impression Bosh can't take a team anywhere as the #1 option either. If fans hopes are only to make the playoffs, then our definitions of "franchise player" differ completely.

S-Dot
08-11-2010, 10:25 AM
Why do people ask questions about Bargnani to people who never watch him play? The Raps had no games nationally broadcasted. Unless everyone here has NBA league pass, I am not sure how we have so many Bargnani experts on PSD.


I agree 100%

As much as I want to speak on the subject, I just havn't seen dude play enough. The only person who received media love on that team was Bosh. Can't call it with this dude. I know Raps fans are high on em, but I don't know his potential. :shrug:

Mile High Champ
08-11-2010, 10:26 AM
Yet, he's better than Bargnani on both ends, and still wasn't a franchise player.

That's my point.

I disagree, Bosh is not a good defender by any means. Both players are awful weak side defenders. Bargnani's on the ball defense and shot blocking is much better than Bosh. Take it from someone who watched both played over 250 games.

As far as offense goes. In different respects. Bosh knows how to get to the line and has a good range jumper. He always shys away from contact and falls in love to often with his off balance Jumper. Bargnani has the superior outside game. I am not say Bargnani is better than Bosh, all I am saying that there is not as big of a gap as people think.

Bargnai's skill set may actually allow him to be better than Bosh.

Mile High Champ
08-11-2010, 10:29 AM
I agree 100%

As much as I want to speak on the subject, I just havn't seen dude play enough. The only person who received media love on that team was Bosh. Can't call it with this dude. I know Raps fans are high on em, but I don't know his potential. :shrug:

Exactly. Its hard to speak intelligently about a player you see maybe play once or twice a year. I don't understand why people have to pretend they know everything to look like top ****. Bargnani has the potential and the skill set to be a great player. Who knows if he reaches that, only time will tell..

JasonJohnHorn
08-11-2010, 10:30 AM
Almost anybody in the league can score 20+ on a losing team that runs most of their plays through them. Cough, cough, Mike James.

Bargnani is a bust, we know this already. His shooting % is average at best, and that is when he has the advantage of people double teaming Bosh and leaving him space, and the dude cant rebound. Seriously, 7+ feet and starting minutes and the dude cant even get 7 rebounds a game?

I think we've seen enough. The Raptors have no choice this season because they have no other real option in the post, but while he may see his number go up, his talent level will remain where it is.

The Raptors will miss the playoffs and defenses will have no problem letting Bargnani score an inefficient 20+ game in a losing effort where the opposition is up 10+ for 3+ quarters.

Look at guys like Stackhouse (on the 76ers his first year, or with the Pistons when they sucked) or Mitch Richmond, who scored 25+ for the Kings how many season without making the playoffs, and then when they sign with a team that actually has a roster, they get moved to the bench.

Bosh is gone, Bargnani is a bust, we lost one, we might as well trade the other while some is still willing to offer picks and a quality young guy.

torontosports10
08-11-2010, 10:32 AM
He needs to play PF to reach his highest potential. Not ****ing Center.

Were in for a long year.

Stupid ****ing Amir Johnson contract.

beasted86
08-11-2010, 10:33 AM
I disagree, Bosh is not a good defender by any means. Both players are awful weak side defenders. Bargnani's on the ball defense and shot blocking is much better than Bosh. Take it from someone who watched both played over 250 games.

As far as offense goes. In different respects. Bosh knows how to get to the line and has a good range jumper. He always shys away from contact and falls in love to often with his off balance Jumper. Bargnani has the superior outside game. I am not say Bargnani is better than Bosh, all I am saying that there is not as big of a gap as people think.

Bargnai's skill set may actually allow him to be better than Bosh.

I'm going to just take this as blind optimism. I guess if Wade left the Heat and all we had was Beasley, I'd similarly be trying to defend him and bolster his abilities.

But anyway, there are very few who believe Bargnani is anywhere close to Bosh on either end of the floor.

And for those on the relentless pursuit to don Bargnani as this "very good on ball defender" I feel the need to send you this link: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/all-nba-worst-defensive-team.php

Bargnani is an okay player, but we all know he'll never be a franchise player.

Ragun
08-11-2010, 10:46 AM
i think bargnani will succeed. amir johnson and bargnani make a great combo. bargnani wont get as much open shots early in the season but that means amir johnson will be getting open...but as the season progresses teams are going to realize how effective amir johnson is and bargnani will get more open looks. they both showed huge flashes when bosh went down at the end of the season.

it'll take time for bargnani to adjust to the #1 option on offense role but thats understandable and rarely does a player become an effective #1 option as soon as the former #1 option leaves.

and to be a franchise player he needs to be a good defensive player too. not just a good offensive player. he has great man-to-man defense for his size and also very good post defense...but last season he was one of the worst help defenders in the league...it was a huge reason for why we got torched up every night...help defense can be improved easily and if he can do that...we got ourselves our franchise player.

bargnani will be a much better franchise guy then bosh IMO.

Khalifa21
08-11-2010, 10:53 AM
I can see him putting up 20+ on a poor team, but until he improves his rebounding considerably and starts playing defense, i'll never consider the guy an All-Star.

Ragun
08-11-2010, 10:55 AM
The Raptors will be in for a bad season, Bargnani is not a franchise player and will never be. He can hardly get a shot off in front of a shorter defender, he's slow, the definition of nonathletic and he has no leadership kills. His defense is terrible, he can be out-rebounded by Earl Boykins, and can also be pushed around by even a player as weak as Damon Jones. Just a totally no-skills, no moves and would never amount to a All-Star player IMO

LOL are you serious? bargnani shoots over anyone...he is never scared to get blocked...he's done it guys like TJ ford and even samuel dalembert from downtown. He's slow? are you ****ing insane. he is arguably one of the hardest big men to defend. he is super athletic for his size and will blow by any player...even guards using his excellent pump fakes. his rebounding is average. its not weak...with bosh gone next year (an 11 rpg guy), you can expect bargs' rebounding numbers to increase. you're talking about a rookie bargnani because this bargnani is not a pusssy anymore...he has become as tough as nails.

this is arguably one of the worst posts i've ever read on PSd...its like you're being sarcastic or you've never seen bargnani play.

here watch some highlights: http://www.youtube.com/user/hoiduda#p/u

coolmo
08-11-2010, 10:56 AM
I'm going to just take this as blind optimism. I guess if Wade left the Heat and all we had was Beasley, I'd similarly be trying to defend him and bolster his abilities.

But anyway, there are very few who believe Bargnani is anywhere close to Bosh on either end of the floor.

And for those on the relentless pursuit to don Bargnani as this "very good on ball defender" I feel the need to send you this link: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/all-nba-worst-defensive-team.php

Bargnani is an okay player, but we all know he'll never be a franchise player.

we are not saying because bosh bolted, we have been saying this from years.

i remember all people were saying bosh is overrated and on and on and that doesn't change just because he went to miami. I am not saying bosh is bad and you guys are XXXXed, he will be the best 3rd options in the world. he isn't just good enough 1st options.

i don't believe barg is capable of being a franchise player but neither bosh was when he was with raptors. wade or james can though.

again, it has nothing to do with bosh bolting the team and fans takes it hard.
it's just the fact.

Ragun
08-11-2010, 11:00 AM
1) He's quicker than just about any C in the league, watch a game.

2) His man defense is very good (against PFs and Cs of similar size..obviously dominated by the Howards of the league, he surprisingly defends Yao very well), watch a game.

3) You're right, his help defense is terrible. He can block shots but his rotations are very, very slow.

4) Uhh...out-rebounded by Earl Boykins? No, he's not a good rebounding center. But he's no worse than say, Mehmet Okur. WATCH A GAME.

5) Out-muscled by Damon Jones? do I have to say this again? WATCH A FLIPPIN GAME.

6) Dude's already averaging 17/6/1.5 on 48% from the field a 40% from 3, and over 80% from the foul line. He's also 24. To say that he's no skilled and has NO chance to be an all-star is just stupid.

I don't know why I even bothered with this post, it wasn't so much to argue with you as it was to make sure no one actually takes you seriously.

i agree with everything expect that. bargnani has become a much better defender against howard...you're talking about the rookie and sophmore bargnani. not the 3rd year or 4th year bargnani.

look at the games he had against toronto: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2384

huge improvements. remember when dwight used to drop 20/20s on bosh and bargs almost every game?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2987

look at the games bargnani had against the DPOY as the 2nd option.

beasted86
08-11-2010, 11:02 AM
we are not saying because bosh bolted, we have been saying this from years.

i remember all people were saying bosh is overrated and on and on and that doesn't change just because he went to miami. I am not saying bosh is bad and you guys are XXXXed, he will be the best 3rd options in the world. he isn't just good enough 1st options.

i don't believe barg is capable of being a franchise player but neither bosh was when he was with raptors. wade or james can though.

again, it has nothing to do with bosh bolting the team and fans takes it hard.
it's just the fact.

Agreed. See my above post a page back: http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14527837&postcount=43

I was always under the impression Bosh wasn't good enough to be a franchise player either. I'm not changing that idea just because he's on the Heat now.

Ragun
08-11-2010, 11:13 AM
That may be the case. I'll admit, I haven't seen him play much but I watched the Raptors towards the end of last season when they was battling the Bulls for the 8th spot. Bargnani had a chance to do something without Bosh down the stretch, he played horrible and couldn't even win games they were supposed to win in their building. If I remember correctly, the Raps got blown out one of those needed games in Toronto. I judged Bargnani from what I saw during that stretch. You may be right, maybe if I had watched him earlier, I may have a different opinion. Lets be clear here, Bargnani is not even a top 40 player in the NBA, that's why I just can't make a case for him as franchise player.
that was the only bad game bargnani has in the stretch? did you see what he did in the last 2 games? you're just basing it off one game.

Yet, he's better than Bargnani on both ends, and still wasn't a franchise player.

That's my point. Bargnani won't take that team anywhere as a 1st option. That's the truth... and I've always been under the impression Bosh can't take a team anywhere as the #1 option either. If fans hopes are only to make the playoffs, then our definitions of "franchise player" differ completely.
uhm no he isnt...they both have their weaknesses and strengths.

bosh is much better at getting to the free throw line on offense. but bargnani is the better shooter in every way possible. they both are pretty equal in the post IMO. bargnani has much more offensive upside then bosh. he can get to hole from the 3 point line...thats impressive for a 7 footer. bosh falls in love with the jump shot way too much. he will drive in and then do a step back and take the jumper. he shy's away from contact. bargnani doesnt.

defensively, both are very weak with help defense but i still gotta give the advantage to bosh. bargnani's help d is horrendous...but bargnani is much better in pretty much every other way defensively.

Ragun
08-11-2010, 11:13 AM
Almost anybody in the league can score 20+ on a losing team that runs most of their plays through them. Cough, cough, Mike James.

Bargnani is a bust, we know this already. His shooting % is average at best, and that is when he has the advantage of people double teaming Bosh and leaving him space, and the dude cant rebound. Seriously, 7+ feet and starting minutes and the dude cant even get 7 rebounds a game?

I think we've seen enough. The Raptors have no choice this season because they have no other real option in the post, but while he may see his number go up, his talent level will remain where it is.

The Raptors will miss the playoffs and defenses will have no problem letting Bargnani score an inefficient 20+ game in a losing effort where the opposition is up 10+ for 3+ quarters.

Look at guys like Stackhouse (on the 76ers his first year, or with the Pistons when they sucked) or Mitch Richmond, who scored 25+ for the Kings how many season without making the playoffs, and then when they sign with a team that actually has a roster, they get moved to the bench.

Bosh is gone, Bargnani is a bust, we lost one, we might as well trade the other while some is still willing to offer picks and a quality young guy.
i stopped reading right there.

beasted86
08-11-2010, 11:14 AM
i agree with everything expect that. bargnani has become a much better defender against howard...you're talking about the rookie and sophmore bargnani. not the 3rd year or 4th year bargnani.

look at the games he had against toronto: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2384

huge improvements. remember when dwight used to drop 20/20s on bosh and bargs almost every game?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2987

look at the games bargnani had against the DPOY as the 2nd option.

:confused:

Are we looking at the same gamelog?

Dwight Howard averaged 19.8 PPG, 12.3 REB, 51% FG, 71% FT, 1.3 AST, 2.5 BLK in the 4 games against the Raptors. His only problem area was turnovers at 4.5 Turnovers a game, but in the end he averages 3.3 TOV on the season anyway.

Your standing would make one think he Bargnani held his own against Howard when it was mostly business as usual.

Ragun
08-11-2010, 11:15 AM
in all honesty, ive wanted bosh gone even before the offseason started...you can ask any poster in the raptors forum.

thecure
08-11-2010, 11:15 AM
The best part of all of this is that Bosh was built around for years without any real success and Bargs is about to make the pieces that never fit with Bosh work.
Just watch.

beasted86
08-11-2010, 11:19 AM
bargnani is much better in pretty much every other way defensively.

Again, I'll just take this line here, and most of what you said as blind optimism. Pretyt much last season it was talk about how the Raptors had Bargnani poised for a break out season, and they were positioned to grab the 4th or 5th seed by most of PSD.

We'll see how Bargnani does next season, hopefully he lives up to your expectations.

Ragun
08-11-2010, 11:21 AM
:confused:

Are we looking at the same gamelog?

Dwight Howard averaged 19.8 PPG, 12.3 REB, 51% FG, 71% FT, 1.3 AST, 2.5 BLK in the 4 games against the Raptors. His only problem area was turnovers at 4.5 Turnovers a game, but in the end he averages 3.3 TOV on the season anyway.

Your standing would make one think he Bargnani held his own against Howard when it was mostly business as usual.

he made 14-16 free throws in the first game...that was a fluke. his FG% during the season is 61%...that 10% difference is huge. dwight howard is dominant and when you hold him down a player like him to 10% below his average, thats pretty impressive. his season averages were bigger than all those numbers expect for PPG and FT%.

4.5 TOPG is huge btw.

and if you've watched raptors game a couple of years or few years ago, dwight howard consistently got 20/20 games against us...he always got his career high in points against us.

Ragun
08-11-2010, 11:25 AM
Again, I'll just take this line here, and most of what you said as blind optimism. Pretyt much last season it was talk about how the Raptors had Bargnani poised for a break out season, and they were positioned to grab the 4th or 5th seed by most of PSD.

We'll see how Bargnani does next season, hopefully he lives up to your expectations.

TBH, ive always been optimistic about bosh...we did have the 5th seed going into the all-star break and when bosh went down it really ****ed us up because every play was run through chris bosh...even the ones for bargnani.

btw, everyone says bosh's presence on offense helped bargnani...i agree with that but no one mentioned how much bargnani helped out bosh offensively.

i also want to add that bargnani is a better passer than bosh.

bosh is awesome though. he was my favourite player for a while and is a legit all-star. he'll be winning championships in miami.

Bob_at_york
08-11-2010, 12:17 PM
He needs to play PF to reach his highest potential. Not ****ing Center.
I don't understand this. How is playing against faster players (PFs are generally faster than Cs) going to help Bargnani's game? The players will be able to keep up with him better.

gwrighter
08-11-2010, 12:18 PM
Let's be honest with ourselves. I doubt Bargnani will ever lead the raptors to the finals. Sure he can become our franchise player and bring us into the playoffs in the future but never a serious contender. I see him more as a Pau gasol, a guy with tremendous skill on the cusp. put a top 15 guard and rebounding centre next to him and you will see a very good second option player. I think his potential is like this. franchise player > Bargs >second option. He will not be good enough to be first option but he will be an above average second option type player. we still need a rebounding/defensive centre to compliment bargnani so he can play up to his full potential.

Bob_at_york
08-11-2010, 12:20 PM
That may be the case. I'll admit, I haven't seen him play much but I watched the Raptors towards the end of last season when they was battling the Bulls for the 8th spot. Bargnani had a chance to do something without Bosh down the stretch, he played horrible and couldn't even win games they were supposed to win in their building. If I remember correctly, the Raps got blown out one of those needed games in Toronto. I judged Bargnani from what I saw during that stretch. You may be right, maybe if I had watched him earlier, I may have a different opinion. Lets be clear here, Bargnani is not even a top 40 player in the NBA, that's why I just can't make a case for him as franchise player.
What game were they suppose to win in their own building? Are you referring only to the Bulls game? Yes the team played bad. I am not sure if the Raptors were suppose to win that one without Bosh though. The Bulls were a hot team at that point and the Raptors were trying to find their footing without Bosh.

gwrighter
08-11-2010, 12:25 PM
I don't understand this. How is playing against faster players (PFs are generally faster than Cs) going to help Bargnani's game? The players will be able to keep up with him better.

i agree with that poster's comment just because....

bargnani is a 7'0 250lb PF. size of a C but mobility of a smaller PF.

playing against smaller/faster PF's (chris bosh): he can use his size to back them down and create for himself off the block. fade aways, back to the basket moves etc.

when he bullies the PF's.....

C's come up to play defense( andrew bynum): stretches the D with his shooting therefore creating lanes for him to drive on the bigger and slower C.

Also i think he will be able to grab more rebounds as well vs. PF's.

The main difference comes on defense. His size and speed will be great against defending PF's. C's just bully him and tire him out. he can be a lockdown PF defender given the chance.

I think he can be a top 5 PF in this league easily if he continues to get better. A good example of bargnani's potential was on display when we faced off against the Lakers. I remember Bynum guarding bosh and Pau guarding Bargs. Andrea averaged. 21.5ppg 8rebs 1.5blks. over the 2 games while being marginally less efficient than CB4.

rabzouz 96
08-11-2010, 12:29 PM
i agree with that poster's comment just because....

bargnani is a 7'0 250lb PF. size of a C but mobility of a smaller PF.

playing against smaller/faster PF's (chris bosh): he can use his size to back them down and create for himself off the block. fade aways, back to the basket moves etc.

when he bullies the PF's.....

C's come up to play defense( andrew bynum): stretches the D with his shooting therefore creating lanes for him to drive on the bigger and slower C.

Also i think he will be able to grab more rebounds as well vs. PF's.

The main difference comes on defense. His size and speed will be great against defending PF's. C's just bully him and tire him out. he can be a lockdown PF defender given the chance.

I think he can be a top 5 PF in this league easily if he continues to get better.

lol

HowFit
08-11-2010, 12:33 PM
gonna need a big center or else his numbers may improve just little...like one said, there won't be no more double-teams on Bosh so more eyes will fall on Barg

thescore53
08-11-2010, 12:34 PM
no one is expecting him to be a franchise player. i think we have to wait for the next draft before we get our next frachise.

gwrighter
08-11-2010, 12:39 PM
lol

he is a good on ball defender. its his help defense that is suspect. Hence why when playing C the raptors D was so horrific. You need a good help side C to alter shots when there are blow by's. i'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't follow the raps and therefore don't know.

smith&wesson
08-11-2010, 12:50 PM
19 points per game
8 rebounds
1.5 blocks

pebloemer
08-11-2010, 12:53 PM
i think being realistic
he can be all star if he reaches his full potential but not "dirk"
i can't even see him as franchise player
this season he will get his stats around 21-23 with 7 -8 rebounds with less efficiency
he is good power forward but his defense is really bad and i don't ever see hims being a good defender
i think @ max potential he can be 24 and 9 guy with decent defense

I agree with his max potential, but i think your projections for this season are a bit optimistic. But sounds fairly realistic. He really needs to work on his defense and rebounding though to reach "decent defense" and 9 rebounds. I don't think he'll get that far, but the potential remains.

mjt20mik
08-11-2010, 01:02 PM
The Raptors will be in for a bad season, Bargnani is not a franchise player and will never be. He can hardly get a shot off in front of a shorter defender, he's slow, the definition of nonathletic and he has no leadership kills. His defense is terrible, he can be out-rebounded by Earl Boykins, and can also be pushed around by even a player as weak as Damon Jones. Just a totally no-skills, no moves and would never amount to a All-Star player IMO

LOL.

If Bargnani get's manhandled I wonder how you feel about Bosh

Ragun
08-11-2010, 01:04 PM
Let's be honest with ourselves. I doubt Bargnani will ever lead the raptors to the finals. Sure he can become our franchise player and bring us into the playoffs in the future but never a serious contender. I see him more as a Pau gasol, a guy with tremendous skill on the cusp. put a top 15 guard and rebounding centre next to him and you will see a very good second option player. I think his potential is like this. franchise player > Bargs >second option. He will not be good enough to be first option but he will be an above average second option type player. we still need a rebounding/defensive centre to compliment bargnani so he can play up to his full potential.
well not by himself but with a solid supporting cast, why not?

gwrighter
08-11-2010, 01:11 PM
well not by himself but with a solid supporting cast, why not?

if the supporting cast includes a top 15 guard then for sure.

Jamiecballer
08-11-2010, 01:22 PM
I don't understand this. How is playing against faster players (PFs are generally faster than Cs) going to help Bargnani's game? The players will be able to keep up with him better.

true but his help defense will probably not be as detrimental to the team at that position. last year guys blew by Calderon and Turk over and over again and had a free path to the basket.

SA5195
08-11-2010, 01:37 PM
That may be the case. I'll admit, I haven't seen him play much but I watched the Raptors towards the end of last season when they was battling the Bulls for the 8th spot. Bargnani had a chance to do something without Bosh down the stretch, he played horrible and couldn't even win games they were supposed to win in their building. If I remember correctly, the Raps got blown out one of those needed games in Toronto. I judged Bargnani from what I saw during that stretch. You may be right, maybe if I had watched him earlier, I may have a different opinion. Lets be clear here, Bargnani is not even a top 40 player in the NBA, that's why I just can't make a case for him as franchise player.

So you judge a player for the last 2-3 games you saw and then at your first post you say he's soft, slow etc? Wow.

Sadds The Gr8
08-11-2010, 01:38 PM
I don't understand this. How is playing against faster players (PFs are generally faster than Cs) going to help Bargnani's game? The players will be able to keep up with him better.

Because he's a 7 footer playing PF which is rare. He will be able to body up on the smaller PFs and shoot over them since he'll have size advantage. He also is quick for his size which will help him out even more against the PFs that are his size. He won't be so one-dimensional. He'll also give us alot of length on defense (if we can find a starting C). Two 7 footers will help us out alot (look at the Lakers), but Bargs does have to rebound better for that to work.

Bob_at_york
08-11-2010, 03:39 PM
true but his help defense will probably not be as detrimental to the team at that position. last year guys blew by Calderon and Turk over and over again and had a free path to the basket.
Why can't a PF be a good help side defender? Why can't Bargs cover opposition's centres and the PF beside him tries to protect the basket?

Chronz
08-11-2010, 04:06 PM
well not by himself but with a solid supporting cast, why not?
You need alot more than a solid supporting cast in place to win with Bargs as your best player. And if you get that cast in place, he will no longer be "leading" them. But yes anyone could "lead" their team to the Finals if their support is good enough, so whats the point in mentioning this if its not a distinguishing factor in ones career?


he is a good on ball defender. its his help defense that is suspect. Hence why when playing C the raptors D was so horrific. You need a good help side C to alter shots when there are blow by's. i'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't follow the raps and therefore don't know.

What made you think he was a good on ball defender, and I think you used that expression wrong. Giving him the benefit would imply that your on his side right? Like Im not going to give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming you dont watch games outside of Toronto/analyze stats to properly evaluate a players man 2 man defense.

ChiSox219
08-11-2010, 04:10 PM
Why do people ask questions about Bargnani to people who never watch him play? The Raps had no games nationally broadcasted. Unless everyone here has NBA league pass, I am not sure how we have so many Bargnani experts on PSD.

Bargnani should see his stats go up next year. With more looks, typically comes with more scoring. He is a great on the ball defender, very underated. That being said, he is not a good help defender by any means. He needs to work on that. His rebounding numbers should improve now that he will be covering PF's and not center's. He will get a lot more weakside boards this year. His offensive game continues to improve. He is an oustanding shooter and very quick for his size. He knows how to take the ball to the basket and has a very quick first step.

I see him having a 20 and 8 year. He is getting better every season.



Bargnani is a bad on ball defender and terrible help defender. He has slow feet and poor recognition skills. He's a poor rebounder for his height and position and even worse he fails to box out opponents too often, so unless he improves that, I don't think Bargnani's rebound numbers will improve.

Keep in mind, Amir is likely to take up all of the rebounds left behind by Bosh and then some because Johnson has a higher career Rebound Percentage. Also, Davis and Alabai should get their fair share as well.

I haven't followed the Raptors off-season too closely, who is their new starting center? Besides, Bosh often guarded opposing centers last year hence his refusal to do so this year.

Bargs offensive game is nice, just not good enough to outweigh his deficiencies. He's still young and improving so that could change. The real problem is now that Bosh is gone, teams will be putting their best defenders on Bargnani and focusing their gameplans more on him, so while I think his averages will improve, it wouldn't surprise me if his efficiency doesn't.

Kakaroach
08-11-2010, 04:13 PM
I think with no Bosh you'll see just how good Bargs is offensively. He still has to vastly improve on defense and rebounding but offensively I expect Bargs to have a huge year in T-Dot.

thescore53
08-11-2010, 04:18 PM
wow whhy the **** is everyone saying bargs is slow. name one 7ft quicker than him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBzVPXxV8UY

does this look slow and unathletic to u

ChiSox219
08-11-2010, 04:21 PM
wow whhy the **** is everyone saying bargs is slow. name one 7ft quicker than him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBzVPXxV8UY

does this look slow and unathletic to u

Watch him on defense, his feet are cement blocks.

thescore53
08-11-2010, 04:23 PM
so he turns magically agile on offense. and bargs rarely guards guys on the perimeter

ChiSox219
08-11-2010, 04:25 PM
so he turns magically agile on offense. and bargs rarely guards guys on the perimeter

Yes, magically.

thescore53
08-11-2010, 04:31 PM
:facepalm:

Chronz
08-11-2010, 04:51 PM
so he turns magically agile on offense. and bargs rarely guards guys on the perimeter
There are tons of examples of gifted players unable to utilize those gifts on both (mostly defensive) ends. Hell one of them played for your team. The reason is the same thing that made them stars on offense.

Anticipation, IQ, and desire. While you may have the advantage with the ball offensively dictating where the ball gos, defensively you have to be able to react to the opposition. Does Bargs have that kind of reflex? Is your understanding of your teammates position such that you know which direction you have to beat your defender to?

More importantly does he even want to be a great defender?

Take Shane Battier for example, most would say hes not athletic but Id point out his lateral quickness is tops in the game. Whether its a result of his talent or his knowledge of the game is irrelevant all I know is that hes super fast on defense and super slow on offense.

The Toronto example was Vince Carter, he was so explosive but never great side to side. Though later would prove to be an effective defender, so Bargs could stand to improve in much the same way. But from what Ive seen and analyzed, hes a bad defender every way possible. About the only thing he does well (individually) is defend his man on the PnR and I think thats mostly because he rarely helps the perimeter player.

The_905
08-11-2010, 04:51 PM
Don't even bother TheScore, the guy clearly does not know anything about Bargs..

ChiSox219
08-11-2010, 04:54 PM
There are tons of examples of gifted players unable to utilize those gifts on both (mostly defensive) ends. Hell one of them played for your team. The reason is the same thing that made them stars on offense.

Anticipation, IQ, and desire. While you may have the advantage with the ball offensively dictating the move you want to make, defensively you have to be able to react to the opposition. Does Bargs have that kind of reflex? Is your understanding of your teammates position such that you know which direction you have to beat your defender to?

More importantly does he even want to be a great defender?

Take Shane Battier for example, most would say hes not athletic but Id point out his lateral quickness is tops in the game. Whether its a result of his talent or his knowledge of the game is irrelevant all I know is that hes super fast on defense and super slow on offense.

The Toronto example was Vince Carter, he was so explosive but never great side to side. Though later would prove to be an effective defender, so Bargs could stand to improve in much the same way. But from what Ive seen and analyzed, hes a bad defender every way possible. About the only thing he does well (individually) is defend his man on the PnR and I think thats mostly because he rarely helps the perimeter player.

This

but I think it will go over that guy's head

Ragun
08-11-2010, 04:56 PM
Watch him on defense, his feet are cement blocks.

lmao no they're not. if you've seen him play this past season, you will know that his only weakness on d is his help.

Ragun
08-11-2010, 04:59 PM
You need alot more than a solid supporting cast in place to win with Bargs as your best player. And if you get that cast in place, he will no longer be "leading" them. But yes anyone could "lead" their team to the Finals if their support is good enough, so whats the point in mentioning this if its not a distinguishing factor in ones career?




well the point is that bosh cant do that. and bargnani could do better as the #1 option.

ive never said bargnani will lead this team to the promise land by himself. he can definitely do it with a good supporting just like kobe, wade, duncan and anyone else.

ChiSox219
08-11-2010, 05:01 PM
lmao no they're not. if you've seen him play this past season, you will know that his only weakness on d is his help.

Yes they are, and I watched over two dozen Raptors games this past season.

Are you telling me his defensive rebounding/boxing out is not a weakness on D, because it is.

Chronz
08-11-2010, 05:19 PM
well the point is that bosh cant do that. and bargnani could do better as the #1 option.

ive never said bargnani will lead this team to the promise land by himself. he can definitely do it with a good supporting just like kobe, wade, duncan and anyone else.

Hey check this link (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/login.php?do=logout&logouthash=1281561470-a813a33cd6ec1f96486b4ca04f604945e6e1968b) out, it validates your opinion


Yes they are, and I watched over two dozen Raptors games this past season.

Are you telling me his defensive rebounding/boxing out is not a weakness on D, because it is.
What killed me was that it sounds like hes minimizing the importance of help defense. ONLY help D, as if it doesnt account for just about every defensive possession.

juggla53
08-11-2010, 05:27 PM
he has the skill set to average 25ppg... however any team that is allowing him to take enough shots to get that total is going to be one of the worst in the leauge.

juggla53
08-11-2010, 05:30 PM
well the point is that bosh cant do that. and bargnani could do better as the #1 option.

ive never said bargnani will lead this team to the promise land by himself. he can definitely do it with a good supporting just like kobe, wade, duncan and anyone else.

"just like kobe, wade and duncan"????? so your telling me replace duncan on those SA championship teams and they still would have four rings? No, not even close.

Chronz
08-11-2010, 05:33 PM
he has the skill set to average 25ppg... however any team that is allowing him to take enough shots to get that total is going to be one of the worst in the leauge.
You know who has the skill set to avg 25 if he could just find a team bad enough to let him chuck.....?

Dol-Fan
08-11-2010, 05:49 PM
Yes they are, and I watched over two dozen Raptors games this past season.

Are you telling me his defensive rebounding/boxing out is not a weakness on D, because it is.

I don't think anyone's disputing that his help defence is poor and that it is a serious weakness in his game. The argument is that his man defence is actually pretty good, which it is. That does not mean he doesn't need SERIOUS improvements in help D and rebounding.

Chronz
08-11-2010, 06:21 PM
I don't think anyone's disputing that his help defence is poor and that it is a serious weakness in his game. The argument is that his man defence is actually pretty good, which it is. That does not mean he doesn't need SERIOUS improvements in help D and rebounding.
Read the post he quoted, people are in fact disputing it. Besides we've both said hes bad at several defensive aspects, man 2 man D included.

Ragun
08-11-2010, 06:25 PM
Yes they are, and I watched over two dozen Raptors games this past season.

Are you telling me his defensive rebounding/boxing out is not a weakness on D, because it is.
defensive rebounding and boxing shouldnt be considered as part of defense. bosh and zbo are good defensive rebounders. does that make them good defenders? and boxing out is also an offensive thing.

Hey check this link (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/login.php?do=logout&logouthash=1281561470-a813a33cd6ec1f96486b4ca04f604945e6e1968b) out, it validates your opinion


What killed me was that it sounds like hes minimizing the importance of help defense. ONLY help D, as if it doesnt account for just about every defensive possession.
you're so funny. :rolleyes:

im not minimizing it. i even admitted that bargnani's horrible help defense was a huge reason why the raptors defense sucked last year. but my point is that he is a good man-to-man defender and a good post defender.

he has the skill set to average 25ppg... however any team that is allowing him to take enough shots to get that total is going to be one of the worst in the leauge.


"just like kobe, wade and duncan"????? so your telling me replace duncan on those SA championship teams and they still would have four rings? No, not even close.
that is not what i am saying at all. what i am saying is if you surround a very good player with a good supporting cast, you can win rings. obviously with the current roster we arent going anywhere and it will probably take a couple of years for bargnani to prove that he is a legit #1 guy offensively.

Dol-Fan
08-11-2010, 06:34 PM
Read the post he quoted, people are in fact disputing it. Besides we've both said hes bad at several defensive aspects, man 2 man D included.

How many times a year you watch the Raps play? He's 10x better a man defender than Bosh, I'll tell you that. Once you watch the Raps play 82 games a year, get back to me.

YoungOne
08-11-2010, 06:46 PM
lol wow so much hate on bargs........ I could agree at this point bargnani just wont ever be a true franchise player on a championship team and it is mainly because as you pointed out he doesnt have much leadership skills. But seriously non-athletic? have you seen this guy play, they dont call him il mago (the magician) for no reason, as a 7-footer the skill and athleticism he displays is amazing, his shot is not only effective against shorter defenders, but also he posts them up!!! thats what he has developed in his game over the past year. Contrary to what many people beleive his D is not terrible at all, he is a solid man to man defender but where he has problems is on help D because he is playing the 5 out of position, hes a natural PF. take any pf in the league and force them to play the C they will be a bit lost. And sure bargs rebounding isnt great, but its improving and i wouldnt be surprised to see him average 20+ and 10 this year. To say that he has no skills and no moves is idiotic, few players have the skillset this guy possesses, he definietly figures to be an all star if he is moved back to PF with a solid defensive 5 and puts his game together.

wow, one underates him the other overates him pretty much ^^ thats funny..

Sadds The Gr8
08-11-2010, 06:52 PM
You guys are over and underrating Bargnani's defense. He's not as good as Ragun and Dol-fan are saying he is, but he's not as bad as Chi Sox and Chronz are saying...Bargnani isn't a great man2man and post defender, but he's not terrible. He's decent...and it's his help defense and rebounding where he sucks balls.

Jays101
08-11-2010, 06:56 PM
wow, one underates him the other overates him pretty much ^^ thats funny..

how have i overrated bargnani? I merely stated what i thought about his game and i even acknowledged he isnt a true franchise player....

Ragun
08-11-2010, 07:25 PM
You guys are over and underrating Bargnani's defense. He's not as good as Ragun and Dol-fan are saying he is, but he's not as bad as Chi Sox and Chronz are saying...Bargnani isn't a great man2man and post defender, but he's not terrible. He's decent...and it's his help defense and rebounding where he sucks balls.

no he is better than decent. definitely above average at those two spots.

Jamiecballer
08-11-2010, 07:45 PM
Why can't a PF be a good help side defender?

he/she can. i never said otherwise.


Why can't Bargs cover opposition's centres and the PF beside him tries to protect the basket?

in theory of course it could be done that way, but the opposing teams center is usually going to be the closest offensive player to the basket thus the center is usually in the best position to step up and challenge.

Sadds The Gr8
08-11-2010, 08:07 PM
no he is better than decent. definitely above average at those two spots.

yea decent...above average...almost the same thing. He has above average Man2man but his help D sucks.

beasted86
08-11-2010, 08:14 PM
well not by himself but with a solid supporting cast, why not?

I don't think anyone is going out on a limb saying Bargnani will never ever ever lead a team to the Finals as the best player on the team.

And that's not hating on him or anything, just plain realism.

beasted86
08-11-2010, 08:19 PM
You guys are over and underrating Bargnani's defense. He's not as good as Ragun and Dol-fan are saying he is, but he's not as bad as Chi Sox and Chronz are saying...Bargnani isn't a great man2man and post defender, but he's not terrible. He's decent...and it's his help defense and rebounding where he sucks balls.

Everyone decided to overlook what I posted earlier, so I'll quote it:

2010 All Non Defensive Team

C Andrea Bargnani

This was a close call between Andrea and Al Jefferson but I think Andrea’s lack of athleticism gives him the slight edge. Andrea’s one year defensive adjusted +/- rating is a staggering -9.13 and although adjusted plus minus rankings should be taken with a rather large grain of salt (especially 1 year ratings) when I substitute Andrea for any other starting center in the league, Toronto’s defensive numbers improve across the board.

http://aloneinthecorner.com/post/527082424/2010-all-non-defensive-team

Statistics support Bargnani as being one of the worst defensive Centers in the NBA.

Ragun
08-11-2010, 09:26 PM
I don't think anyone is going out on a limb saying Bargnani will never ever ever lead a team to the Finals as the best player on the team.

And that's not hating on him or anything, just plain realism.
no. thats your opinion.

Everyone decided to overlook what I posted earlier, so I'll quote it:

http://aloneinthecorner.com/post/527082424/2010-all-non-defensive-team

Statistics support Bargnani as being one of the worst defensive Centers in the NBA.

its because of his help defense...everyone has pointed that out. he has arguably the worst help defense in the league.

we'll just have to wait and see guys.

THE MTL
08-11-2010, 10:14 PM
I say Bargnani averages 20-21ppg 7rpg 1.5bpg on 44% shooting

canzano55
08-12-2010, 12:31 AM
Almost anybody in the league can score 20+ on a losing team that runs most of their plays through them. Cough, cough, Mike James.

Bargnani is a bust, we know this already. His shooting % is average at best, and that is when he has the advantage of people double teaming Bosh and leaving him space, and the dude cant rebound. Seriously, 7+ feet and starting minutes and the dude cant even get 7 rebounds a game?

I think we've seen enough. The Raptors have no choice this season because they have no other real option in the post, but while he may see his number go up, his talent level will remain where it is.

The Raptors will miss the playoffs and defenses will have no problem letting Bargnani score an inefficient 20+ game in a losing effort where the opposition is up 10+ for 3+ quarters.

Look at guys like Stackhouse (on the 76ers his first year, or with the Pistons when they sucked) or Mitch Richmond, who scored 25+ for the Kings how many season without making the playoffs, and then when they sign with a team that actually has a roster, they get moved to the bench.

Bosh is gone, Bargnani is a bust, we lost one, we might as well trade the other while some is still willing to offer picks and a quality young guy.Name me one C in the Eastern conference that is more offensively talented than Bargnani.

canzano55
08-12-2010, 12:41 AM
he has the skill set to average 25ppg... however any team that is allowing him to take enough shots to get that total is going to be one of the worst in the leauge.Bargnani's offensive efficiency has always been high and growing. The stats going all the way back to his rookie year are indisputable.

NBA-GMaster
08-12-2010, 01:04 AM
Raptors need a SG or SF(shooter) and a center that could dominate under the rim..

Rego247
08-12-2010, 01:52 AM
Almost anybody in the league can score 20+ on a losing team that runs most of their plays through them. Cough, cough, Mike James.

Bargnani is a bust, we know this already. His shooting % is average at best, and that is when he has the advantage of people double teaming Bosh and leaving him space, and the dude cant rebound. Seriously, 7+ feet and starting minutes and the dude cant even get 7 rebounds a game?

I think we've seen enough. The Raptors have no choice this season because they have no other real option in the post, but while he may see his number go up, his talent level will remain where it is.

The Raptors will miss the playoffs and defenses will have no problem letting Bargnani score an inefficient 20+ game in a losing effort where the opposition is up 10+ for 3+ quarters.

Look at guys like Stackhouse (on the 76ers his first year, or with the Pistons when they sucked) or Mitch Richmond, who scored 25+ for the Kings how many season without making the playoffs, and then when they sign with a team that actually has a roster, they get moved to the bench.

Bosh is gone, Bargnani is a bust, we lost one, we might as well trade the other while some is still willing to offer picks and a quality young guy.

"we already know" wow i didnt get that memo. if ur deadest in showing that bargs is a bust, why not set up thread in rap forum, and gauge the responses.

u will get ur answer.

The Claw
08-12-2010, 02:04 AM
in all honesty, ive wanted bosh gone even before the offseason started...you can ask any poster in the raptors forum.

I am a Poster in the Raps Forum... and I disagree 1 million percent.

You jump on and off the Bandwagon.

scotti pippin
08-12-2010, 03:41 AM
His stats mostly points will go up significantly all but fg% which if he is ready and for real will at least be consistent if not slightly better. He will score alot the question is will toronto be terrible or not? I think you need big defensive pure center that stands out of bounds basically on offense (10 pts. on frees and off.reb.) but is a beast defensivly and on the boards and a combo sf/pf (Amir?)that is also def and reb beast with more offensive production and ability than said center. This will give big A the best opportunity to be the player he has potential to be. Remember he was 'bout 20 when he entered and hasn't done that bad and at 7 1 his big *** can dribble and score and "kinda" shoot..... Also I'm not really even a fan of his but let's see the answer will definitely be apparent.

JasonJohnHorn
08-12-2010, 08:54 AM
i stopped reading right there.


You can seriously tell me that after watching the guy for four seasons and see how soft he is, and how he loses his place on defence and lets guys get easy dunks, and that he doenst rebound worth a $#!T that the guy, considering the fact he was a FIRST OVER ALL pick, isnt a bust. He got 17 points a game last year, and had Bosh not been drawing double teams, he wouldnt have even gotten that much.

I admit he's one of the few centers who has a decent three-point shot, and that talent alone makes him an asset as a potential role player off the bench for a team with some depth, but NO TEAM will EVER even so much as MAKE THE PLAYOFFS with a guy like Bargnani as their first option.

Will his number go up? Of course, because the Raptors have no other options. And hopefully when they do go up somebody will be dumb enough to offer us a high draft pick and/or a quality vet for him, but I since Isiah isnt in charge of any NBA teams, I doubt anybody will be dumb enough to trade for a center that struggles to get 6 boards a game with starting minutes.

BARGNANI IS A BUST!!!!

thescore53
08-12-2010, 09:09 AM
how is he a bust. how many guys from the 2006 draft is better than him. aldridge is just as soft. tyrus thomas is a joke. adam morrison lol. how about randy foye. bargs was a top 5 player in the draft. do u see people calling bogut a bust

td0tsfinest
08-12-2010, 09:13 AM
I am a Poster in the Raps Forum... and I disagree 1 million percent.

You jump on and off the Bandwagon.

Actually, Ragun was a few of the posters who didn't want Bosh back.

Anyways, Bargnani is a very skilled on the offensive end. A lot of people just talk about his 3 pt shooting but he is a very good attacker for his size, has a nice off the dribble jumper and surprisingly is a pretty good passer. Unfortunately, a lot of plays weren't run for him last season. There were plenty of times where we saw Andrea start the game hot but eventually just fading away.

Where Andrea lacks is his defense. He's a decent shot blocker. To be honest, he's probably a better blocker than he is a rebounder. And most of those blocks come from one on one defending. His help defense is his biggest problem.

He'll be a 20 PPG guy this year and maybe a 7/8 RPG.

DaoudS
08-12-2010, 10:13 AM
As a long time hater of Bargnani, he has really impressed me in the last season and a half. He is still young - which brings inconsistency. He lets his offensive game run his defensive game. When he is hitting his shots, he will be play average to slightly above average D. But when he is throwing up bricks, he will just go through the motions.

With Bosh gone, Bargnani has legit potential to get 22 PPG, 8 rebounds, 1.4 blocks per game. Now it is up to him to actually learn to deal with double teams, rebound better and for ****s sake, improve the help defense.

Ragun
08-12-2010, 10:56 AM
As a long time hater of Bargnani, he has really impressed me in the last season and a half. He is still young - which brings inconsistency. He lets his offensive game run his defensive game. When he is hitting his shots, he will be play average to slightly above average D. But when he is throwing up bricks, he will just go through the motions.

With Bosh gone, Bargnani has legit potential to get 22 PPG, 8 rebounds, 1.4 blocks per game. Now it is up to him to actually learn to deal with double teams, rebound better and for ****s sake, improve the help defense.

that sounds fair.

except bargnani's man-to-man d and post is always good...he was **** at every aspect of defense except for shot blocking when he came in but he improved in everything significantly over the years except for help defense.

i also expect bargs to struggle in the first half of the season because he has to get adjusted to the double teams but hopefully im wrong.

Ragun
08-12-2010, 11:00 AM
I am a Poster in the Raps Forum... and I disagree 1 million percent.

You jump on and off the Bandwagon.
lmao...please. im a diehard raptors fan and ive wanted bosh gone before even free agency started. ive said that several times in the raptors forum...

you can ask any consistent poster in the raptors forum.

i've never been a bandwagon fan :S

You can seriously tell me that after watching the guy for four seasons and see how soft he is, and how he loses his place on defence and lets guys get easy dunks, and that he doenst rebound worth a $#!T that the guy, considering the fact he was a FIRST OVER ALL pick, isnt a bust. He got 17 points a game last year, and had Bosh not been drawing double teams, he wouldnt have even gotten that much.

I admit he's one of the few centers who has a decent three-point shot, and that talent alone makes him an asset as a potential role player off the bench for a team with some depth, but NO TEAM will EVER even so much as MAKE THE PLAYOFFS with a guy like Bargnani as their first option.

Will his number go up? Of course, because the Raptors have no other options. And hopefully when they do go up somebody will be dumb enough to offer us a high draft pick and/or a quality vet for him, but I since Isiah isnt in charge of any NBA teams, I doubt anybody will be dumb enough to trade for a center that struggles to get 6 boards a game with starting minutes.

BARGNANI IS A BUST!!!!

dude. im not going to read that. i read the first line and i stopped.

http://www.youtube.com/user/hoiduda#p/u

how about you watch some game highlights.

cant believe people are still calling him soft. he was soft when he came in to the league and his sophmore year.

Rego247
08-12-2010, 11:18 AM
dude. im not going to read that. i read the first line and i stopped.

http://www.youtube.com/user/hoiduda#p/u

how about you watch some game highlights.

cant believe people are still calling him soft. he was soft when he came in to the league and his sophmore year.

no point arguing with this guy ragun, its evident he has a pure hatred about everything and everyone in the BC era of raptors basketball. calling a guy a bust who was averaging 17 ppg, and was the 3rd option on the team (behind bosh and turk), is moronic.

BlondeBomber41
08-12-2010, 08:13 PM
He'll probably average over 20 a game, but he is still a **** rebounder and the Raptors are gonna have a hard time keeping him on the floor because of that. They dont really have any legit big men to pair him with so because of that he'll get his numbers. They are gonna be an awful rebounding team, even worse than last year most likely.

Dol-Fan
08-12-2010, 08:21 PM
He'll probably average over 20 a game, but he is still a **** rebounder and the Raptors are gonna have a hard time keeping him on the floor because of that. They dont really have any legit big men to pair him with so because of that he'll get his numbers. They are gonna be an awful rebounding team, even worse than last year most likely.

Yeah, if it wasn't for your ******* Mavs and MJ we would have Tyson Chandler right now to mask some of Bargs deficiencies :( they would have been an ideal fit together.

MackSnackWrap
08-12-2010, 08:44 PM
Not a franchise player.... He has no concitency... With bosh gone its gunna be tougher for Bargnanit to be effective like people are excpecting him to put up Dirk Like numbers.

MackSnackWrap
08-12-2010, 08:46 PM
Actually, Ragun was a few of the posters who didn't want Bosh back.

Anyways, Bargnani is a very skilled on the offensive end. A lot of people just talk about his 3 pt shooting but he is a very good attacker for his size, has a nice off the dribble jumper and surprisingly is a pretty good passer. Unfortunately, a lot of plays weren't run for him last season. There were plenty of times where we saw Andrea start the game hot but eventually just fading away.

Where Andrea lacks is his defense. He's a decent shot blocker. To be honest, he's probably a better blocker than he is a rebounder. And most of those blocks come from one on one defending. His help defense is his biggest problem.

He'll be a 20 PPG guy this year and maybe a 7/8 RPG.

stats seem fine but his Fg% will be lower than last year and turnovers will be up

Sadds The Gr8
08-12-2010, 10:13 PM
Everyone decided to overlook what I posted earlier, so I'll quote it:

http://aloneinthecorner.com/post/527082424/2010-all-non-defensive-team

Statistics support Bargnani as being one of the worst defensive Centers in the NBA.

he's not unathletic...if only people would watch instead listening to people's bull ****.

JasonJohnHorn
08-12-2010, 10:14 PM
l


dude. im not going to read that. i read the first line and i stopped.

Well, if you aint gonna read, then dont bother commenting on it.
I am a Raptors fan. I have watched the guy over the last four years. I cant count how many times he loses his spot on defence and give up easy baskets. I cant count how many times he just starting running up the court to get up on offence without even bothering going for the rebound.

If you want to have a conversation, then you can at least have the common courtesy to read what other posters have taken the time to write, rather than imply that they are so wrong they arent worth listening to and shouting that you are right whilst everybody else is wrong.

He was a first over all pick and he has not lived up to that being such. You are acting like a homer. You want to address his weakness on defence, you want to address his inability to rebound, fine, but you want to ignore those things and act like this guy is a franchise player that is going to he the saviour of the organization, then you are just going to be walk back with your tale between your legs when the Raptors finally give up on this debacle of a pick that they wasted on a player who is a mid-level talent at best while they passed up on several all-stars and at least one legit franchise player who could have had Toronto contending instead of looking forward to the cellar of the NBA next season.

Chronz
08-13-2010, 02:34 AM
you're so funny. :rolleyes:
Be honest with me, did you click the link?


im not minimizing it. i even admitted that bargnani's horrible help defense was a huge reason why the raptors defense sucked last year. but my point is that he is a good man-to-man defender and a good post defender.
If that were true the Raps wouldnt be so bad defensively, you speak as if the Raps were good at certain aspects of defense but the reality is they ranked among the worst at just about everything, 1 on 1 post defense included its why their counterpart #'s are hideous.


How many times a year you watch the Raps play? He's 10x better a man defender than Bosh, I'll tell you that. Once you watch the Raps play 82 games a year, get back to me.
Once you watch more games outside of Toronto, have a high understanding of statistics, get back to me.



You guys are over and underrating Bargnani's defense. He's not as good as Ragun and Dol-fan are saying he is, but he's not as bad as Chi Sox and Chronz are saying...Bargnani isn't a great man2man and post defender, but he's not terrible. He's decent...and it's his help defense and rebounding where he sucks balls.
Any bit of proof would help because the evidence is overwhelmingly in our favor.

Ragun
08-13-2010, 10:51 AM
If that were true the Raps wouldnt be so bad defensively, you speak as if the Raps were good at certain aspects of defense but the reality is they ranked among the worst at just about everything, 1 on 1 post defense included its why their counterpart #'s are hideous.


team defense is the most important type of defense but we sucked at that cause our 2 bigs (bargnani and bosh) were not **** at that.

im not talking about the raptors...im talking about bargnani.

everyone knows the raptors were a horrible defensive team.

and im not saying bargnani is a good defender. im just pointing out that he is good in some defensive areas...and he is better than bosh in those defensive areas.

Chronz
08-13-2010, 12:28 PM
team defense is the most important type of defense but we sucked at that cause our 2 bigs (bargnani and bosh) were not **** at that.

im not talking about the raptors...im talking about bargnani.

everyone knows the raptors were a horrible defensive team.

and im not saying bargnani is a good defender. im just pointing out that he is good in some defensive areas...and he is better than bosh in those defensive areas.
If that were true the Raps wouldnt be so bad defensively, you speak as if the Raps were good at certain aspects of defense but the reality is they ranked among the worst at just about everything, 1 on 1 post defense included its why their counterpart #'s are hideous.

If you didnt get the gist of my post, BARGS sucks at things you claim hes good at.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2010, 01:39 PM
Bargnani was actually outplayed efficiency wise by his counterpart all season long. So claiming he is a good defender is a losing cause.
His offensive numbers should be pretty good this year. But the Raps are in for a long year with a lot of losses

Mplsman
08-13-2010, 01:59 PM
Quit chucking 3's.

Ragun
08-13-2010, 07:20 PM
If that were true the Raps wouldnt be so bad defensively, you speak as if the Raps were good at certain aspects of defense but the reality is they ranked among the worst at just about everything, 1 on 1 post defense included its why their counterpart #'s are hideous.

If you didnt get the gist of my post, BARGS sucks at things you claim hes good at.

i really dont need to repeat myself. if you didnt understand what i said, then thats your problem...you can just keep on thinking whatever you want.

Chronz
08-13-2010, 07:43 PM
Dude I understand you completely, its you whos not getting me. Well thats not entirely true, I hadnt looked up Bargs #'s in detail, turns out hes a better post defender than I thought but still not good.

Lets try again, this time I wont use the word team or help defense, Ill only post the INDIVIDUAL #'s see if that helps.


Bargs is a better post defender than Bosh(by a small margin at first glance), but hes still not good at his position. In Isolation Sets Bosh was MUCH better at defending his man 1 on 1. Both had 130 possessions in ISO sets, Bosh held his counterpart to .65PTS for every possession meanwhile Bargs held guys to .95.
Now I havent sorted through the data to see if it was skewed by one of them guarding significantly tougher players, but given the vast difference in ranking (Bosh ranked in the top 16, Bargs ranked in the 260 group) thats far too great of a leap to be accounted for by Strength of Opposition.

So dont repeat yourself, lets have a new argument. Tell me, why should I ignore these facts?

ChiSox219
08-13-2010, 08:04 PM
Dude I understand you completely, its you whos not getting me. Well thats not entirely true, I hadnt looked up Bargs #'s in detail, turns out hes a better post defender than I thought but still not good.

Lets try again, this time I wont use the word team or help defense, Ill only post the INDIVIDUAL #'s see if that helps.


Bargs is a better post defender than Bosh(by a small margin at first glance), but hes still not good at his position. In Isolation Sets Bosh was MUCH better at defending his man 1 on 1. Both had 130 possessions in ISO sets, Bosh held his counterpart to .65PTS for every possession meanwhile Bargs held guys to .95.
Now I havent sorted through the data to see if it was skewed by one of them guarding significantly tougher players, but given the vast difference in ranking (Bosh ranked in the top 16, Bargs ranked in the 260 group) thats far too great of a leap to be accounted for by Strength of Opposition.

So dont repeat yourself, lets have a new argument. Tell me, why should I ignore these facts?

You get Synergy?

Chronz
08-13-2010, 08:17 PM
You get Synergy?

You dont? Why come?