PDA

View Full Version : Top 10 most efficient NBA players.



dnewguy
08-09-2010, 03:46 PM
What are your top 10 most efficient NBA players?

You have to take points, rebounds, assists, blks and stls into account.

1. Lebron James
2. Dwayne Wade
3. Chris Paul
4. Dwight Howard
5. Kevin Durrant
6. David Lee
7. Chris Bosh
8. Pau Gasol
9. Carlos Boozer
10. Dirk Nowitski

JordansBulls
08-09-2010, 03:47 PM
What are your top 10 most efficient NBA players?

You have to take points, rebounds, assists, blks and stls into account.

1. Lebron James
2. Dwayne Wade
3. Chris Paul
4. Dwight Howard
5. Kevin Durrant
6. David Lee
7. Chris Bosh
8. Pau Gasol
9. Carlos Boozer
10. Dirk Nowitski

David Lee is no where as efficient as Dirk. The rest of the list looks good though.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010_leaders.html



Player Efficiency Rating

1. LeBron James-CLE 31.1
2. Dwyane Wade-MIA 28.0
3. Kevin Durant-OKC 26.2
4. Chris Bosh-TOR 25.0
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 24.7
6. Dwight Howard-ORL 24.0
7. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 22.9
8. Pau Gasol-LAL 22.9
9. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 22.6
10. Manu Ginobili-SAS 22.5
11. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 22.2
12. David Lee-NYK 22.2
13. Kobe Bryant-LAL 21.9
14. Steve Nash-PHO 21.6
15. Carlos Boozer-UTA 21.3
16. Brandon Roy-POR 21.3
17. Zach Randolph-MEM 21.2
18. Josh Smith-ATL 21.0
19. Andrew Bogut-MIL 20.7
20. Deron Williams-UTA 20.6

dnewguy
08-09-2010, 03:48 PM
David Lee is no where as efficient as Dirk. The rest of the list looks good though.

That's what I thought till you look up statistics on NBA.com

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 03:50 PM
David Lee is no where as efficient as Dirk. The rest of the list looks good though.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010_leaders.html

agreed. Put Nash in for Lee, done

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 03:50 PM
That's what I thought till you look up statistics on NBA.com

that is not the best efficiency rating, the system they use.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 03:52 PM
does anyone agree on how to rate the overall efficiency of a player? Is it PER? Is it win shares? What is it? For you anyways

mikealike305
08-09-2010, 03:53 PM
good list

JordansBulls
08-09-2010, 03:57 PM
does anyone agree on how to rate the overall efficiency of a player? Is it PER? Is it win shares? What is it? For you anyways

I use both PER and Win Shares. PER shows how productive you are as a player. Win Shares shows how much you contribute to your team winning.
Usually the all time greats are able to lead in both.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 03:59 PM
I use both PER and Win Shares. PER shows how productive you are as a player. Win Shares shows how much you contribute to your team winning.
Usually the all time greats are able to lead in both.

kind of what I was getting at :)

JuggernautJ
08-09-2010, 04:00 PM
Boozer :clap:

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 04:00 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_yearly.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly.html

lists the leader in PER, and win shares. You will see a clear distinction that they are usually the same

DCSportsIsPain
08-09-2010, 04:00 PM
does anyone agree on how to rate the overall efficiency of a player? Is it PER? Is it win shares? What is it? For you anyways

It's everything. PER and WS% don't account for defense, making players like Tim Duncan seem less valuable than they actually are. Stats never tell the full story in the NBA. The only way to get them to be remotely accurate is to use all of them, both offensive and the frequently ignored defensive.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 04:02 PM
It's everything. PER and WS% don't account for defense, making players like Tim Duncan seem less valuable than they actually are. Stats never tell the full story in the NBA. The only way to get them to be remotely accurate is to use all of them, both offensive and the frequently ignored defensive.

oh, Duncan is always way up there. Total win shares means you have to be a great 2-way player. Because you may kill it offensively, but if you don't do much defensively, many guys will pass you

JordansBulls
08-09-2010, 04:05 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_yearly.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly.html

lists the leader in PER, and win shares. You will see a clear distinction that they are usually the same

Yep.

I have a list I compiled showing how many times each of the elite guys led in WS and PER in there careers.

PLAYERS FAN
08-09-2010, 04:05 PM
It's everything. PER and WS% don't account for defense, making players like Tim Duncan seem less valuable than they actually are. Stats never tell the full story in the NBA. The only way to get them to be remotely accurate is to use all of them, both offensive and the frequently ignored defensive.

if that is true then it is a tainted stat to me then.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 04:06 PM
Yep.

I have a list I compiled showing how many times each of the elite guys led in WS and PER in there careers.

Let's have it

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 04:07 PM
if that is true then it is a tainted stat to me then.

PER does not include defense so to speak, its a measure of offensive efficiency mostly. But Win shares, total, factor in defense big time

DCSportsIsPain
08-09-2010, 04:08 PM
oh, Duncan is always way up there. Total win shares means you have to be a great 2-way player. Because you may kill it offensively, but if you don't do much defensively, many guys will pass you

True, but go by the posted list. Is Chris Bosh more valuable than the players below him? Of course not. He is slightly more efficient offensively, but useless defensively.

JordansBulls
08-09-2010, 04:09 PM
Let's have it



http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=3175


1)
Jordan, Kareem and Wilt have led in Win Shares 9 times each and the next closest is 5.
In the playoffs Jordan led in Win Shares 7 times and Russell 5 times. Those are the top 2 in the postseason.


2)
How crazy is it that Jordan led the league in playoff WS 7 times and only even made the finals 6 times?
I know it’s fully possible to play more games than either finalist without making the finals,
but still… Actually looking at the list again I think Jordan is the only NBA player to lead the
playoff WS without making the finals. And he did it twice.


3)
Some would argue that leading in WS in the playoffs is more
valuable (since deeper in playoffs you go the more opportunity you have to generate WS) - interestingly
16 (/58) times has the reg. season WS leader
also been PS Ws leader (MJ= 6 and Kareem 2nd with 3) - But
that player has been the league MVP only 7 of those
times (MJ 3 times, 2000 Shaq, 1983 Moses Malone, 1986 Larry Bird, and Kareem in 1980) - all
of those players went on to be finals MVP, except Kareem who was injured and a young Magic rode Kareem’s efforts to the title and finals MVP.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 39.76
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56
3. Magic Johnson* 32.63
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46
5. Shaquille O'Neal 31.08
6. Tim Duncan 28.61
7. Bill Russell* 27.76
8. Julius Erving* 26.89
9. Jerry West* 26.75
10. Kobe Bryant 26.12


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly_p.html

2010 NBA Pau Gasol 4.25 LAL
2009 NBA LeBron James 4.83 CLE
2008 NBA Kevin Garnett 4.10 BOS
2007 NBA LeBron James 3.73 CLE
2006 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 5.39 DAL
2005 NBA Chauncey Billups 4.59 DET
2004 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 3.86 LAL
2003 NBA Tim Duncan 5.94 SAS
2002 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 3.81 LAL
2001 NBA Kobe Bryant 3.76 LAL
2000 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 4.67 LAL
1999 NBA Tim Duncan 3.71 SAS
1998 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.81 CHI
1997 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.94 CHI
1996 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.68 CHI
1995 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 3.02 ORL
1994 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 4.28 HOU
1993 NBA Charles Barkley* 4.60 PHO
1992 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.13 CHI
1991 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.77 CHI
1990 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.98 CHI
1989 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.04 CHI
1988 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.99 LAL
1987 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.68 LAL
1986 NBA Larry Bird* 4.23 BOS
1985 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.01 LAL
1984 NBA Larry Bird* 4.72 BOS
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 2.84 PHI
1982 NBA Julius Erving* 3.00 PHI
1981 NBA Moses Malone* 3.46 HOU
1980 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 3.26 LAL
1979 NBA Gus Williams 2.72 SEA
1978 NBA Elvin Hayes* 3.06 WSB
1977 NBA Julius Erving* 3.40 PHI
1976 NBA Dave Cowens* 2.71 BOS
1975 NBA Rick Barry* 3.09 GSW
1974 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 4.69 MIL
1973 NBA Walt Frazier* 3.02 NYK
1972 NBA Walt Frazier* 3.33 NYK
1971 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 3.26 MIL
1970 NBA Jerry West* 3.19 LAL
1969 NBA Jerry West* 4.31 LAL
1968 NBA Jerry West* 3.60 LAL
1967 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 3.78 PHI
1966 NBA Bill Russell* 3.25 BOS
1965 NBA Bill Russell* 3.34 BOS
1964 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 3.75 SFW
1963 NBA Bill Russell* 2.53 BOS
1962 NBA Bill Russell* 3.60 BOS
1961 NBA Elgin Baylor* 2.99 LAL
1960 NBA Bill Russell* 2.97 BOS
1959 NBA Frank Ramsey* 2.04 BOS
1958 NBA Cliff Hagan* 2.72 STL
1957 NBA Bob Pettit* 1.66 STL
1956 NBA Paul Arizin* 2.23 PHW
1955 NBA Dolph Schayes* 1.84 SYR
1954 NBA George Mikan* 3.46 MNL
1953 NBA George Mikan* 1.97 MNL
1952 NBA George Mikan* 2.37 MNL


MJ led in Playoff Win Shares 7x and Russell 5x. The most for any player


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly.html

2009-10 NBA LeBron James 18.46 CLE
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 20.25 CLE
2007-08 NBA Chris Paul 17.79 NOH
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 16.34 DAL
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 17.72 DAL
2004-05 NBA Kevin Garnett 16.11 MIN
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 18.33 MIN
2002-03 NBA Tim Duncan 16.45 SAS
2001-02 NBA Tim Duncan 17.81 SAS
2000-01 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 14.94 LAL
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 18.65 LAL
1998-99 NBA Karl Malone 9.62 UTA
1997-98 NBA Karl Malone 16.35 UTA
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 18.30 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 20.43 CHI
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 17.46 SAS
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 19.98 SAS
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 17.24 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 17.73 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 20.30 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 18.99 CHI
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 19.80 CHI
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 21.23 CHI
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan* 16.89 CHI
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 15.81 BOS
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 15.67 BOS
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 14.61 UTA
1982-83 NBA Moses Malone* 15.10 PHI
1981-82 NBA Moses Malone* 15.42 HOU
1980-81 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.26 LAL
1979-80 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.84 LAL
1978-79 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.38 LAL
1977-78 NBA David Thompson* 12.70 DEN
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.81 LAL
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.01 LAL
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 17.81 BUF
1973-74 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 18.45 MIL
1972-73 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 21.86 MIL
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.37 MIL
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 22.31 MIL
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 15.15 LAL
1968-69 NBA Willis Reed* 14.69 NYK
1967-68 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 20.38 PHI
1966-67 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 21.87 PHI
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 21.42 PHI
1964-65 NBA Oscar Robertson* 16.95 CIN
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 24.98 SFW
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 20.94 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 23.11 PHW
1960-61 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 18.83 PHW
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 17.01 PHW
1958-59 NBA Bob Pettit* 14.75 STL
1957-58 NBA Dolph Schayes* 13.73 SYR
1956-57 NBA Neil Johnston* 13.68 PHW
1955-56 NBA Neil Johnston* 13.92 PHW
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 15.39 PHW
1953-54 NBA Neil Johnston* 18.30 PHW
1952-53 NBA Neil Johnston* 15.33 PHW
1951-52 NBA Paul Arizin* 16.01 PHW


MJ led in Season Win Shares 9x and Wilt and Kareem as well led in it 9x. The most for any player


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 27.32
2. Magic Johnson* 23.10
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 21.82
4. Jerry West* 21.34
5. Shaquille O'Neal 20.13
6. Kobe Bryant 19.02
7. Julius Erving* 16.29
8. Reggie Miller 16.18
9. Wilt Chamberlain* 15.65
10. Tim Duncan 15.58



http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_yearly_p.html

2010 NBA Pau Gasol 3.18 LAL
2009 NBA LeBron James 3.68 CLE
2008 NBA Chris Paul 2.38 NOH
2007 NBA LeBron James 2.10 CLE
2006 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 3.81 DAL
2005 NBA Manu Ginobili 3.01 SAS
2004 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 2.58 LAL
2003 NBA Tim Duncan 3.27 SAS
2002 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 2.59 LAL
2001 NBA Ray Allen 3.19 MIL
2000 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 3.59 LAL
1999 NBA Tim Duncan 2.06 SAS
1998 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.63 CHI
1997 NBA Michael Jordan* 2.47 CHI
1996 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.36 CHI
1995 NBA Clyde Drexler* 2.17 HOU
1994 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 2.32 HOU
1993 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.34 CHI
1992 NBA Terry Porter 2.96 POR
1991 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.23 CHI
1990 NBA Michael Jordan* 2.70 CHI
1989 NBA Michael Jordan* 2.81 CHI
1988 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.18 LAL
1987 NBA Magic Johnson* 2.58 LAL
1986 NBA Larry Bird* 2.71 BOS
1985 NBA Magic Johnson* 2.04 LAL
1984 NBA Larry Bird* 3.04 BOS
1983 NBA Johnny Moore 1.77 SAS
1982 NBA Julius Erving* 1.95 PHI
1981 NBA Moses Malone* 2.43 HOU
1980 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 2.21 LAL
1979 NBA Gus Williams 1.99 SEA
1978 NBA Elvin Hayes* 1.39 WSB
1977 NBA Julius Erving* 2.56 PHI
1976 NBA Phil Smith 1.57 GSW
1975 NBA Rick Barry* 1.77 GSW
1974 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 3.17 MIL
1973 NBA Walt Frazier* 2.27 NYK
1972 NBA Walt Frazier* 2.56 NYK
1971 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1.95 MIL
1970 NBA Jerry West* 2.64 LAL
1969 NBA Jerry West* 3.23 LAL
1968 NBA Jerry West* 3.06 LAL
1967 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 1.83 PHI
1966 NBA Jerry West* 2.71 LAL
1965 NBA Jerry West* 1.89 LAL
1964 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 2.12 SFW
1963 NBA Oscar Robertson* 2.04 CIN
1962 NBA Jerry West* 2.20 LAL
1961 NBA Elgin Baylor* 2.70 LAL
1960 NBA Elgin Baylor* 2.01 MNL
1959 NBA Frank Ramsey* 1.50 BOS
1958 NBA Cliff Hagan* 2.58 STL
1957 NBA Bob Pettit* 1.47 STL
1956 NBA Paul Arizin* 1.73 PHW
1955 NBA Bill Sharman* 1.08 BOS
1954 NBA George Mikan* 1.98 MNL
1953 NBA Ernie Vandeweghe 1.00 NYK
1952 NBA Connie Simmons 1.39 NYK


MJ led in Playoff Offensive Win Shares 7x and Jerry West 6x and Magic 4x. The most for any player


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_yearly.html

2009-10 NBA LeBron James 13.30 CLE
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 13.74 CLE
2007-08 NBA Chris Paul 13.20 NOH
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 11.85 DAL
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 13.47 DAL
2004-05 NBA Amare Stoudemire 11.26 PHO
2003-04 NBA Peja Stojakovic 11.35 SAC
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 13.24 ORL
2001-02 NBA Tim Duncan 10.72 SAS
2000-01 NBA Ray Allen 11.49 MIL
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 11.66 LAL
1998-99 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 7.17 LAL
1997-98 NBA Karl Malone 12.09 UTA
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 13.29 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 14.20 CHI
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 10.72 SAS
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 13.33 SAS
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 12.00 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 12.11 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 14.86 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 14.68 CHI
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 14.61 CHI
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 15.16 CHI
1986-87 NBA Magic Johnson* 12.06 LAL
1985-86 NBA Adrian Dantley* 10.42 UTA
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 10.45 BOS
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 12.97 UTA
1982-83 NBA Kiki Vandeweghe 10.46 DEN
1981-82 NBA Adrian Dantley* 11.91 UTA
1980-81 NBA Adrian Dantley* 12.32 UTA
1979-80 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 9.54 LAL
1978-79 NBA Moses Malone* 10.61 HOU
1977-78 NBA David Thompson* 10.76 DEN
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 11.90 LAL
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 9.82 LAL
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 12.73 BUF
1973-74 NBA Bob McAdoo* 10.92 BUF
1972-73 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.37 MIL
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 18.31 MIL
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.01 MIL
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 11.48 LAL
1968-69 NBA Oscar Robertson* 12.23 CIN
1967-68 NBA Oscar Robertson* 11.51 CIN
1966-67 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 14.83 PHI
1965-66 NBA Jerry West* 14.41 LAL
1964-65 NBA Jerry West* 14.82 LAL
1963-64 NBA Oscar Robertson* 16.20 CIN
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 15.96 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 17.11 PHW
1960-61 NBA Oscar Robertson* 13.03 CIN
1959-60 NBA Cliff Hagan* 9.27 STL
1958-59 NBA Kenny Sears 11.88 NYK
1957-58 NBA George Yardley* 10.16 DET
1956-57 NBA Neil Johnston* 11.59 PHW
1955-56 NBA Neil Johnston* 11.22 PHW
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 11.46 PHW
1953-54 NBA Neil Johnston* 15.35 PHW
1952-53 NBA Neil Johnston* 13.00 PHW
1951-52 NBA Paul Arizin* 14.78 PHW


MJ led in Offensive Win Shares 8x and Kareem 6x and Neil Johnson 5x and Wilt 4x. The most for any player.


PER (Player Efficiency Rating)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 26.86
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.59
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.67
7. Bob Pettit* 25.37
8. Tim Duncan 25.02
9. Neil Johnston* 24.72
10. Charles Barkley* 24.63
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
12. Magic Johnson* 24.11


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_yearly.html

2009-10 NBA LeBron James 31.10
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 31.67
2007-08 NBA LeBron James 29.14
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 27.59
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 28.06
2004-05 NBA Kevin Garnett 28.20
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 29.44
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 30.27
2001-02 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 29.68
2000-01 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.23
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.65
1998-99 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.55
1997-98 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 28.79
1996-97 NBA Karl Malone 28.90
1995-96 NBA David Robinson* 29.41
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 29.13
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 30.66
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.70
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 27.75
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.63
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.19
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.14
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.71
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.78
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 25.61
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 26.54
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 24.64
1982-83 NBA Moses Malone* 25.12
1981-82 NBA Moses Malone* 26.77
1980-81 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.48
1979-80 NBA Julius Erving* 25.36
1978-79 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.47
1977-78 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 29.22
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 27.80
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 27.21
1974-75 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 26.36
1973-74 NBA Bob McAdoo* 24.65
1972-73 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 28.45
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 29.94
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 28.95
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 24.64
1968-69 NBA Jerry West* 22.32
1967-68 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 24.71
1966-67 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 26.51
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 28.26
1964-65 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 28.62
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 31.64
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 31.84
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 31.76
1960-61 NBA Elgin Baylor* 28.24
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 28.04
1958-59 NBA Bob Pettit* 28.19
1957-58 NBA Bob Pettit* 26.26
1956-57 NBA Bob Pettit* 28.23
1955-56 NBA Bob Pettit* 27.34
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 25.50
1953-54 NBA George Mikan* 28.54
1952-53 NBA George Mikan* 28.39
1951-52 NBA George Mikan* 26.26

Kareem led in PER 9x and Wilt 8x and MJ 7x (Tied in 1996 with D.Robinson so it could be said 8x) The most for any player


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 27.08
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.16
5. Tim Duncan 25.74
6. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
7. Tracy McGrady 24.66
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.66
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dwyane Wade 24.04


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_yearly_p.html

2010 NBA Dwyane Wade 29.43
2009 NBA LeBron James 37.39
2008 NBA Chris Paul 30.70
2007 NBA Amare Stoudemire 29.57
2006 NBA Tim Duncan 30.39
2005 NBA Yao Ming 28.99
2004 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 27.50
2003 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.61
2002 NBA Tim Duncan 31.80
2001 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 28.67
2000 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.45
1999 NBA Grant Hill 29.29
1998 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 31.00
1997 NBA Anfernee Hardaway 29.88
1996 NBA David Robinson* 29.10
1995 NBA Kevin Johnson 27.36
1994 NBA Charles Barkley* 27.85
1993 NBA Michael Jordan* 30.06
1992 NBA Michael Jordan* 27.24
1991 NBA Michael Jordan* 32.04
1990 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.63
1989 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.90
1988 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 38.95
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 28.46
1986 NBA Spud Webb 25.74
1985 NBA Michael Jordan* 24.72
1984 NBA Bernard King 27.60
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 25.72
1982 NBA Julius Erving* 22.46
1981 NBA Marques Johnson 27.65
1980 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 27.91
1979 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 26.54
1978 NBA George Gervin* 29.44
1977 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 32.35
1976 NBA Bob Lanier* 25.27
1975 NBA Bob McAdoo* 24.25
1974 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 28.31
1973 NBA Jerry West* 22.67
1972 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 22.45
1971 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.26
1970 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 29.39
1969 NBA Jerry West* 25.20
1968 NBA Jerry West* 25.13
1967 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 25.34
1966 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 25.97
1965 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 27.09
1964 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 31.22
1963 NBA Bob Pettit* 26.04
1962 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 29.62
1961 NBA Elgin Baylor* 28.55
1960 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 27.01
1959 NBA Cliff Hagan* 26.19
1958 NBA Cliff Hagan* 27.46
1957 NBA Bob Pettit* 25.03
1956 NBA George Yardley* 25.36
1955 NBA Dolph Schayes* 24.31
1954 NBA George Mikan* 33.58
1953 NBA George Mikan* 26.25
1952 NBA George Mikan* 27.61

Kareem led in Playoff PER 7x and MJ 6x (also led in it in 1986 with a 30 PER, so really 7x) and Wilt 6x. The most for any player


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_yearly.html

2009-10 NBA LeBron James 0.2987 CLE
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 0.3183 CLE
2007-08 NBA Chris Paul 0.2840 NOH
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2780 DAL
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2753 DAL
2004-05 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2479 DAL
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 0.2723 MIN
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 0.2617 ORL
2001-02 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 0.2615 LAL
2000-01 NBA David Robinson* 0.2457 SAS
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 0.2830 LAL
1998-99 NBA David Robinson* 0.2607 SAS
1997-98 NBA David Robinson* 0.2691 SAS
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2829 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3174 CHI
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 0.2727 SAS
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 0.2960 SAS
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2698 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2743 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3211 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2851 CHI
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2920 CHI
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3077 CHI
1986-87 NBA Magic Johnson* 0.2627 LAL
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 0.2438 BOS
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 0.2380 BOS
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 0.2350 UTA
1982-83 NBA Moses Malone* 0.2480 PHI
1981-82 NBA Julius Erving* 0.2294 PHI
1980-81 NBA Julius Erving* 0.2311 PHI
1979-80 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2266 LAL
1978-79 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2186 LAL
1977-78 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2571 LAL
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2835 LAL
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2416 LAL
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 0.2416 BUF
1973-74 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2495 MIL
1972-73 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.3225 MIL
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.3399 MIL
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.3256 MIL
1969-70 NBA Walt Frazier* 0.2361 NYK
1968-69 NBA Willis Reed* 0.2268 NYK
1967-68 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2551 PHI
1966-67 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2851 PHI
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2751 PHI
1964-65 NBA Jerry West* 0.2611 LAL
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.3251 SFW
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2641 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2857 PHW
1960-61 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2395 PHW
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2445 PHW
1958-59 NBA Kenny Sears 0.2562 NYK
1957-58 NBA Frank Ramsey* 0.2340 BOS
1956-57 NBA Neil Johnston* 0.2595 PHW
1955-56 NBA Larry Foust 0.2639 FTW
1954-55 NBA Larry Foust 0.2823 FTW
1953-54 NBA Dolph Schayes* 0.2668 SYR
1952-53 NBA George Mikan* 0.2640 MNL
1951-52 NBA Al Cervi* 0.2967 SYR


Kareem led in WS Per 48 Minutes 9x and MJ 8x and Wilt 8x, the most for any player


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career.html

1. Michael Jordan* 0.2505
2. David Robinson* 0.2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2480
4. Neil Johnston* 0.2413
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2284
6. Magic Johnson* 0.2249
7. LeBron James 0.2242
8. Tim Duncan 0.2190
9. Manu Ginobili 0.2167
10. Charles Barkley* 0.2163


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_yearly_p.html

2010 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2912 DAL
2009 NBA LeBron James 0.3994 CLE
2008 NBA Chris Paul 0.2887 NOH
2007 NBA Amare Stoudemire 0.2690 PHO
2006 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2634 DAL
2005 NBA Paul Pierce 0.3009 BOS
2004 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2871 DAL
2003 NBA Tim Duncan 0.2792 SAS
2002 NBA Jamaal Magloire 0.2498 CHH
2001 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 0.2602 LAL
2000 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 0.2241 LAL
1999 NBA Marcus Camby 0.2800 NYK
1998 NBA Steve Smith 0.2688 ATL
1997 NBA Anfernee Hardaway 0.2395 ORL
1996 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3064 CHI
1995 NBA Shawn Kemp 0.2597 SEA
1994 NBA Detlef Schrempf 0.2599 SEA
1993 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2700 CHI
1992 NBA Karl Malone* 0.2198 UTA
1991 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3325 CHI
1990 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2837 CHI
1989 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2703 CHI
1988 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 0.3855 HOU
1987 NBA Magic Johnson* 0.2650 LAL
1986 NBA Magic Johnson* 0.2666 LAL
1985 NBA Sidney Moncrief 0.2169 MIL
1984 NBA Larry Bird* 0.2356 BOS
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 0.2599 PHI
1982 NBA Kevin McHale* 0.2568 BOS
1981 NBA Marques Johnson 0.2600 MIL
1980 NBA Cedric Maxwell 0.2555 BOS
1979 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2218 LAL
1978 NBA Steve Mix 0.3112 PHI
1977 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.3324 LAL
1976 NBA Bob Lanier* 0.2133 DET
1975 NBA Don Nelson 0.2094 BOS
1974 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2971 MIL
1973 NBA Oscar Robertson* 0.2362 MIL
1972 NBA Walt Frazier* 0.2271 NYK
1971 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2711 MIL
1970 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2859 MIL
1969 NBA Jerry West* 0.2735 LAL
1968 NBA Jerry West* 0.2779 LAL
1967 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2529 PHI
1966 NBA Jerry West* 0.2374 LAL
1965 NBA Bill Russell* 0.2857 BOS
1964 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.3228 SFW
1963 NBA Bob Pettit* 0.2436 STL
1962 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2596 PHW
1961 NBA Bill Sharman* 0.2571 BOS
1960 NBA Elgin Baylor* 0.2646 MNL
1959 NBA Frank Ramsey* 0.3225 BOS
1958 NBA Cliff Hagan* 0.3124 STL
1957 NBA Frank Ramsey* 0.2904 BOS
1956 NBA Paul Arizin* 0.2618 PHW
1955 NBA Dolph Schayes* 0.2421 SYR
1954 NBA George Mikan* 0.3912 MNL
1953 NBA George Mikan* 0.2045 MNL
1952 NBA Dolph Schayes* 0.2838 SYR

MJ and Kareem both led in WS per 48 Minutes in the playoffs 5x, the most for any Player.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 0.2553
2. George Mikan* 0.2541
3. LeBron James 0.2287
4. Magic Johnson* 0.2078
5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2059
6. Tim Duncan 0.2037
7. Jerry West* 0.2031
8. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.1998
9. David Robinson* 0.1992


MJ, Kareem and Wilt were stat machines.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 04:16 PM
I would say "nerd alert", but that is impressive.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 04:21 PM
but it gets back to my question, and your answer on pg. 1. PER and win shares are huge in factoring who, statistically, was the most dominant.

tredigs
08-09-2010, 04:40 PM
Agree with you guys.

But standard Win Shares will give the benefit to those who play more games (which obviously is also important), so if you want to just see their per-game winshare value then I like to use WinShare/48. You'll still see some anomalies in there, though - so from a purely stats angle - just combine that with a players PER to see how imactful of a player they probably are.

Problem with PER is that it has the tendency to benefit chuckers (any shot above something like 25% FG% is considered a positive, and I'm not sure why Hollinger has it set up like this...), but combined with WS/48 I still think that's the best way to go.


edit:

By the way looking at Lebron's Playoff WS/48 last year from that list JB: .399?! Wow, that has to be the highest ever. It's scary that he's on such a dominant team now. You mentioned something about Jordan being the only person to not reach the finals and win in playoff win shares - but Lebron definitely did that last year as well. I guess that's what 35/9/7 on .510% shooting and a PER of 37 will do for you... That might be the highest playoff PER ever as well, come to think of it.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 04:43 PM
Agree with you guys.

But standard Win Shares will give the benefit to those who play more games (which obviously is also important), so if you want to just see their per-game winshare value then I like to use WinShare/48. You'll still see some anomalies in there, though - so from a purely stats angle - just combine that with a players PER to see how imactful of a player they probably are.

Problem with PER is that it has the tendency to benefit chuckers (any shot above something like 25% FG% is considered a positive, and I'm not sure why Hollinger has it set up like this...), but combined with WS/48 I still think that's the best way to go.

PER does indeed promote shot creation, but not necessarily chuckers.
and I will agree, WS/48 is a very good stat to use

Kashmir13579
08-09-2010, 04:47 PM
agreed. Put Nash in for Lee, done

statistically lee is more efficient. obviously dirk is the better player. i think rondo should be on this lit somewhere.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 04:49 PM
statistically lee is more efficient. obviously dirk is the better player. i think rondo should be on this lit somewhere.

Rondo is a terrible shooter with too many turnovers. Efficiency and him are not in the same sentence

mikealike305
08-09-2010, 04:53 PM
Rondo is a terrible shooter with too many turnovers. Efficiency and him are not in the same sentence

this

tredigs
08-09-2010, 05:03 PM
statistically lee is more efficient. obviously dirk is the better player. i think rondo should be on this lit somewhere.

How's lee more efficient than Dirk? I guess if you look at their ts%'s from last year, then Lee has him by a hair, but given Dirk's higher USG%, his consistently higher PER, the fact that he takes 3+ more shots a game and how seldom he turns the ball over, I'd say he's the more efficient player - though they're both way up there.

TopsyTurvy
08-09-2010, 05:06 PM
It's everything. PER and WS% don't account for defense, making players like Tim Duncan seem less valuable than they actually are. Stats never tell the full story in the NBA. The only way to get them to be remotely accurate is to use all of them, both offensive and the frequently ignored defensive.

You want an ignored stat - passing. Passing in basketball can and should be ranked in terms beyond the simple assist since a passed ball moves faster than a dribble and leads to more sound scoring opportunities in the end.

Similar pull-based network mapping techniques and algorithms were applied to the World Cup to come up with some fantastic ratings/diagrams of team strengths and weaknesses.

jim51990
08-09-2010, 05:09 PM
just more proof that bron is the best player on the planet

Hellcrooner
08-09-2010, 05:11 PM
I use both PER and Win Shares. PER shows how productive you are as a player. Win Shares shows how much you contribute to your team winning.
Usually the all time greats are able to lead in both.

DOnt mention win shares in laker form, for you own sake. :D

Hellcrooner
08-09-2010, 05:12 PM
You want an ignored stat - passing. Passing in basketball can and should be ranked in terms beyond the simple assist since a passed ball moves faster than a dribble and leads to more sound scoring opportunities in the end.

Similar pull-based network mapping techniques and algorithms were applied to the World Cup to come up with some fantastic ratings/diagrams of team strengths and weaknesses.

an interesting stat wodl be Passes who lead to an assist.

Some times playe Iq gets dilute d or missed beau se they see the WHOLE play an igive the pass that allows the assist later.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 05:20 PM
an interesting stat wodl be Passes who lead to an assist.

Some times playe Iq gets dilute d or missed beau se they see the WHOLE play an igive the pass that allows the assist later.

Its called ast%. This is the percentage of baskets a player assists while on the floor. Here are the leaders for years, per year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_pct_yearly.html

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 05:23 PM
Look at John freakin Stockton from 89-91'. He assisted nearly 60% of the baskets scored by the Jazz while he was on the floor. Wow

Kashmir13579
08-09-2010, 05:32 PM
Rondo is a terrible shooter with too many turnovers. Efficiency and him are not in the same sentence

uhhh, and nash doesn't turn it over?

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 05:37 PM
uhhh, and nash doesn't turn it over?

Nash is so much stronger in shooting and passing, he blows Rondo away efficiency wise

tredigs
08-09-2010, 05:40 PM
uhhh, and nash doesn't turn it over?

He does for sure - but he also lead the league in assists + assist% and is probably the best shooter in the game, if not all time. So he gets a pass on the turnovers.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 05:41 PM
He does for sure - but he also lead the league in assists + assist% and is probably the best shooter in the game, if not all time. So he gets a pass on the turnovers.

I think Nash is the best shooter of all time honestly.

arkanian215
08-09-2010, 05:42 PM
WS's for this past season:
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Dwight Howard
Dwyane Wade
Dirk Nowitzki
Gerald Wallace
Pau Gasol
Tim Duncan
Al Horford
Nene Hilario

arkanian215
08-09-2010, 05:43 PM
Also we should get a forum for basketball stats.:up:

Frezhnitz
08-09-2010, 05:45 PM
just more proof that bron is the best player on the planet

:facepalm: It doesn't prove that.

tredigs
08-09-2010, 05:49 PM
I think Nash is the best shooter of all time honestly.

Probably. Ray Allen and Bird come to mind, but he's got them both beat honestly. If he stays away from injury, some day Stephen Curry will be challenging them for the title. Anthony Morrow, as well. Feel like homer saying those two, but I think it's entirely possible.



Also we should get a forum for basketball stats.:up:

There definitely should be a sub-forum for it, just like the sabermetrics sub-forum in the MLB section.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 05:49 PM
:facepalm: It doesn't prove that.

it sure helps his case, when he is blowing everyone away

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 05:51 PM
Probably. Ray Allen and Bird come to mind, but he's got them both beat honestly. If he stays away from injury, some day Stephen Curry will be challenging them for the title. Anthony Morrow, as well. Feel like homer saying those two, but I think it's entirely possible.




There definitely should be a sub-forum for it, just like the sabermetrics sub-forum in the MLB section.

First, a caveat: By "history," we're limiting ourselves to the 3-point era. There were plenty of great shooters who played prior to that point, but we have no way to verify their cases statistically. In particular, it appears Calvin Murphy and Rick Barry -- two players from the 1970s who were renowned for their shooting range and rank among the top six free throw shooters of all time -- are slighted by today's methodology. Bill Sharman, Mike Newlin and Fred Brown also get my apologies.

OK, now for the method. My first step is to require players pass through a couple of fairly low "gates" in at least one season: shooting 85 percent from the line with at least a 45 percent mark on 3s, or shooting 87.5 percent from the line with at least 42.5 percent made on 3s, or shooting 90 percent from the stripe with at least 40 percent made on 3s.

The point at this stage isn't to determine the best shooter of all time but to eliminate all the players we know darn well aren't the best shooter of all time. This does an efficient job, narrowing our list to 44 players.

From there, I set about creating a formula to rank the best shooters. I thought I'd have to dream up something very complex to adjust for all the variables involved, but it turned out a simple formula worked far better than any of my more exotic concoctions. I simply added a player's 2-point, 3-point and free throw percentages. We'll call this "Combined Shooting Rating," or CSR for short.

CSR works for a few reasons. First, the free throw is a pretty fair arbiter of shooting ability. It's the only true apples-to-apples measurement we have, because it's always 15 feet from the hoop and unguarded, regardless of what system the team runs or how the player is used. It's only one shot among many that need to be in a player's arsenal, but it's an important one.

Second, the yin and yang of 2-point and 3-point ability balance each other out. Some players are more effective midrange shooters than long-range marksmen, while others are more comfortable bombing away. And using this method makes the system more fair to players from the 1980s and early '90s, when teams didn't utilize the 3 as often or as effectively.

The one thing I left out was frequency. Obviously, players who pick their spots get higher-percentage looks than those who are the focal point of the offense on play after play. On the other hand, it's extremely difficult for players in the former group to shoot well enough from the line to crack the elite on this list, simply because of the lack of in-game repetition. Several snipers with great numbers from the floor (Brent Barry, for instance, or Hubert Davis) couldn't get into the top 10 because of free throw percentage, and even the second-ranked player on our list (one of the all-time snipers) has the worst free throw percentage of anybody in the top 10.

Also, I did set two minimum standards: 10,000 career minutes and 250 made 3-pointers. I didn't want anybody getting onto the list with a lengthy career sparsely populated with 3-point attempts; that seemed counter to the point of the exercise. While arbitrary, 250 nicely separated the truly deadly long-range shooters from the guys who merely hit midrange J's and made their free throws.

So now that our rather simple CSR method is clear, let's get to our list of the top 10 shooters, which also apparently doubles as a great predictor of post-career broadcasting, coaching and front-office opportunities. According to CSR, they are:


Top All-Time Shooters By CSR
Player 2-Pt% 3-Pt% FT% CSR
Steve Nash .515 .431 .903 1.849
Steve Kerr .494 .454 .864 1.812
Reggie Miller .525 .395 .888 1.807
Mark Price .501 .402 .904 1.807
Jeff Hornacek .515 .403 .877 1.795
Chris Mullin .533 .384 .865 1.783
Peja Stojakovic .485 .400 .895 1.779
Larry Bird .509 .376 .886 1.770
Ray Allen .482 .396 .893 1.770
Dana Barros .488 .411 .858 1.757
Min. 10,000 career minutes

That's right: Steve Nash. By a mile.

I've always written that his shooting is his most underappreciated skill, but even so, this blows me away.

It makes sense, though -- run through the numbers, and Nash crushes every possible competitor. And it becomes even more impressive when one considers nearly all his shots from the field have come off the dribble. Nash and the fourth-ranked player on this list, Mark Price, are the only two players in history to shoot better than 50 percent on 2s, 40 percent on 3s and 90 percent from the line for their careers. And as it happens, Nash's general manager in Phoenix, Steve Kerr, is second on the list.

One strong point of this list is that it acknowledges a few of the game's great midrange shooters. Neither Chris Mullin nor Jeff Hornacek shot the 3 with great frequency, for instance, but both were deadly accurate when they did, and they were exceptional from 2-point range.

Fans of "Larry Legend" undoubtedly will be disappointed to see him eighth on this list and to see one player of his own size -- Stojakovic -- rank just ahead of him. But Bird's greatest asset was his ability to make high-difficulty shots, which would need to be part of a different list entirely -- a list that would include different players. (Kobe Bryant, for one obvious example, is nowhere close on the above list but would have to rank high on any list of tough-shot makers.)

If you're wondering about Nowitzki, he is 13th, and easily the best among players 6-foot-10 or taller. Players 11 to 20 on this list are Barry, Hersey Hawkins, Nowitzki, Davis, Korver, Mo Williams, Danny Ainge, Allan Houston, Scott Skiles and Glen Rice.

Before I exit, some players who didn't make my list warrant mentioning.

The first is Drazen Petrovic, who just missed my minutes cut-off because of his untimely death in 1993. Petro's rating of 1.799 would have put him fifth on the list, a fact that becomes even more impressive when one considers he was only 28 when he died -- most players improve their numbers on the above criteria well into their 30s.

The second is Calderon, who needs only 779 more minutes to crack the list; his 1.805 career mark would place him fifth. Calderon also has only 238 made 3s on his career and needs to make 12 more of those. You might think his free throw percentage carries him into the top 10, but actually it's his amazing 2-point field goal percentage that does it. Calderon has shot 53.4 percent for his career on 2-point shots, the best mark of any of the 44 players in this study.

Finally, two young players on the Golden State Warriors have established a great chance of finishing their careers near the top of this list. Rookie Stephen Curry is at 1.770 thus far in his brief career, and should that number hold up, he'll finish his career in the top 10. Since players' shooting often improves dramatically in their second through fifth seasons, he could finish as one of the top-ranked players of all time.

Then again, he also might finish second among current Warriors. Curry's teammate, Anthony Morrow, has played two NBA seasons as a part-time starter, and posted career marks of 48.8 percent on 2s, 45.9 percent on 3s and 87.6 percent from the line. That's good for a CSR of 1.822, which is better than every other player in history except Nash

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 05:51 PM
Hollinger's attempted rating of shooters

TO Rapz
08-09-2010, 05:52 PM
mike james. /thread.

Frezhnitz
08-09-2010, 05:54 PM
it sure helps his case, when he is blowing everyone away

It helps but not good enough.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 05:55 PM
It helps but not good enough.

LeBron James is the best player in the world, you know this, right?

HowFit
08-09-2010, 05:57 PM
I think Nash is the best shooter of all time honestly.

totally agree...R. Miller got to be up there as well

Hawkeye15
08-09-2010, 05:58 PM
totally agree...R. Miller got to be up there as well

yes sir, he sure is. Check my post from the previous page

Khalifa21
08-09-2010, 06:06 PM
I think Nash is the best shooter of all time honestly.

Completely agree.

tredigs
08-09-2010, 06:12 PM
I've read that "shooters" piece by Hollinger, and it's a pretty good formula. I'm not sure how far back the "percentage of shots made within 'X' feet" statistics go, but if it were me than I would give more statistical weight to shots outside of 10 feet than those within.

As far as basketball goes, I don't care how you put it in - as long as you put it in (thinking of a player like Rondo who shoots poorly, though still comes up with solid %'s due to his slashing ability), but if we're talking about strictly shooting ability then layups and 5 footers should definitely be weighed differently. But again if those statistics are only available for the last decade or so, then it dampers that a bit.

slyone_nyc
08-09-2010, 06:35 PM
Rondo is a terrible shooter with too many turnovers. Efficiency and him are not in the same sentence

he may be a terrible jump shooter, but his fg% is always around 50% or better, what kills rondo is his ft%... i agree that he should be on the list.. as for david lee, he definitely should be on the list in terms of offensive efficiency. im not sure how you guys factor in defense to a players efficiency, defensive stats definitely does not mean your a good or efficient defender!!!

RulerSlick
08-09-2010, 07:47 PM
Top 3 are

Lebron, wade and Cp3

Next 7 IMO are

Durant
D Williams
Nash
Amare
David lee
Dirk
?????

Kashmir13579
08-10-2010, 01:02 AM
Nash is so much stronger in shooting and passing, he blows Rondo away efficiency wise
shooting: yes
passing: about the same/both elite
defense: rondo

honestly, are triple doubles not considered efficient anymore? can anybody imagine the stats rondo would have playing on a up-tempo team like the suns or knicks?

not in the same sentence :facepalm:

devv83
08-10-2010, 11:18 AM
How do you get the win shares? What do they use to come up with it?

dnewguy
08-10-2010, 11:51 AM
How do you get the win shares? What do they use to come up with it?

Thatz what I was wondering also.

ohreally
08-10-2010, 12:00 PM
Well, you can go to basketball reference for a rundown on how they calculate them, but basically, it is related to number of wins, so the best players on winning teams will tend to have the most win shares. So you have to look at the overall team wins and a player's win shares in relation to that in order to get a better reading. It is a team game, and the overall makeup of the team will always skew the numbers, sometimes good players on good teams will suffer, sometimes they'll benefit, and the same goes for every variation of individual/team talent, so it all still will come down to our own biases in rating individual players.

As for PER and USG, I don't see why a higher PER or ppg really says anything that positive when USG is higher, I'd rather look at PER relative to Usage, since that would say really who is more effective. LeBron does rate well in this as well, but David Lee actually rates very nicely. And Pau Gasol and Chris Paul actually have higher PERs than Usage.

mikealike305
08-10-2010, 12:05 PM
It helps but not good enough.

most efficent player in the NBA.... 2 time (in a row) MVP... not enough?.... LeBron is the best player in the world (right now) period..

IndyRealist
08-10-2010, 12:17 PM
PER does not include defense so to speak, its a measure of offensive efficiency mostly. But Win shares, total, factor in defense big time

Actually untrue. PER does not measure offensive efficiency, it measures offensive output. If you look at the formula for PER, you can shoot 35% FG and something like 22% 3pt% and come out looking like a superstar (the break-even points are 30.4% FG and 21.4% 3pt, meaning if you shoot those percentages, then the penalty for taking extra shots is negated by the points you get). PER rewards players who take a ton of low percentage shots.

The discussion of PER where I got the numbers above from can be found here ( http://dberri.wordpress.com/2006/11/17/a-comment-on-the-player-efficiency-rating/ )

Giantwarrior
08-10-2010, 12:57 PM
D-Lee has inflated stats because of D'Antoni system and the SHlTTY Knicks team.

Hawkeye15
08-10-2010, 01:08 PM
he may be a terrible jump shooter, but his fg% is always around 50% or better, what kills rondo is his ft%... i agree that he should be on the list.. as for david lee, he definitely should be on the list in terms of offensive efficiency. im not sure how you guys factor in defense to a players efficiency, defensive stats definitely does not mean your a good or efficient defender!!!

there are defensive numbers out there that help efficiency. Defensive rating is more indicative of team defense. But there are steal and block percentages, and some sites off area protection numbers, and synergy will give you numbers of how specific players do against specific teams, areas, players, etc. Defensive win shares is also out there. Rondo is a very good defender, but not so much more so than Paul or Williams that he doesn't get killed overall due to his offensive liabilities, and Nash is so far ahead of him offensively, Rondo's better defense can't catch him
Rondo's turnovers, poor percentages from everywhere outside 5 feet, and offensive win shares just don't add up to him being in the top level of pg's. You are right, his free throw shooting is a killer for him.

Hawkeye15
08-10-2010, 01:09 PM
shooting: yes
passing: about the same/both elite
defense: rondo

honestly, are triple doubles not considered efficient anymore? can anybody imagine the stats rondo would have playing on a up-tempo team like the suns or knicks?

not in the same sentence :facepalm:

you are not understanding. Ast% doesn't care about pace. It factors in possessions, which is how you measure true numbers. PER POSSESSION....
Nash is better in assists pretty easily. And there is your tie breaker

Hawkeye15
08-10-2010, 01:12 PM
Actually untrue. PER does not measure offensive efficiency, it measures offensive output. If you look at the formula for PER, you can shoot 35% FG and something like 22% 3pt% and come out looking like a superstar (the break-even points are 30.4% FG and 21.4% 3pt, meaning if you shoot those percentages, then the penalty for taking extra shots is negated by the points you get). PER rewards players who take a ton of low percentage shots.

The discussion of PER where I got the numbers above from can be found here ( http://dberri.wordpress.com/2006/11/17/a-comment-on-the-player-efficiency-rating/ )

true, my bad on the wording. It helps those who have high shot creation, and as some have said, can make volume shooters appear more efficient than they really are at times. But PER also rewards for other numbers outside shots. Great rebounders, distributors, ie, those who get pure numbers, will be rewarded too. Hence why Carl Landry is always so high

Hawkeye15
08-10-2010, 01:13 PM
also, those who keep claiming the Knicks have such a high pace need to go check again. They slowed it down this year a bit.

tredigs
08-10-2010, 01:27 PM
true, my bad on the wording. It helps those who have high shot creation, and as some have said, can make volume shooters appear more efficient than they really are at times. But PER also rewards for other numbers outside shots. Great rebounders, distributors, ie, those who get pure numbers, will be rewarded too. Hence why Carl Landry is always so high

Looking into it a bit more, I'm actually having trouble finding examples of this. I don't think it makes as much of a difference as the PER critics insinuate (like in the article IndyRealist posted - and there is a method to the mayhem, I just haven't looked into deep enough to unravel what it is).

By the way IndyRealist, I think one thing that the article you linked isn't taking into account is "star factor". The volume shooters who don't excel at many other things may not help you win the most games possible (I'm looking at you, Melo...), but they will sell you tickets and help drive up the stock of the franchise, which is undoubtedly a big reason why the owners pay them what they do. It's not always about wins, unfortunately.

Good point on David Lee and the Knicks by the way Hawkeye, I was going to mention the same thing. And hey, do you have any idea what Hollinger did to his pace-ratings last year that started calibrating all the teams differently?

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/paceFactor/year/2008

^'08

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/paceFactor/year/2009

^'09 I can't imagine it's possible that the league has slowed down that drastically overall in just a matter of 1 year...

nuggetsyankees
08-10-2010, 01:36 PM
i don't like looking at efficiency rating cause it doesn't tell you the whole story...melo is #11 but he's a top 5 player in the league

Hawkeye15
08-10-2010, 01:37 PM
i don't like looking at efficiency rating cause it doesn't tell you the whole story...melo is #11 but he's a top 5 player in the league

Melo is not a top 5 player. Top 10? sure

mikealike305
08-10-2010, 01:39 PM
i don't like looking at efficiency rating cause it doesn't tell you the whole story...melo is #11 but he's a top 5 player in the league

melo is not a top 5 player..... he is the best overrated player in the NBA

devv83
08-10-2010, 02:07 PM
i don't like looking at efficiency rating cause it doesn't tell you the whole story...melo is #11 but he's a top 5 player in the league


Melo it top 5 to 10 I think. My thing is that he is third on the team in win shares, but he hit two game winners had a game saving block, key steals stops and rebounds all season plus about 10 or mor games where he went for double digits in the 4th to lead the nuggets to the win. I dont understand.

IndyRealist
08-10-2010, 04:14 PM
:D
Looking into it a bit more, I'm actually having trouble finding examples of this. I don't think it makes as much of a difference as the PER critics insinuate (like in the article IndyRealist posted - and there is a method to the mayhem, I just haven't looked into deep enough to unravel what it is).

By the way IndyRealist, I think one thing that the article you linked isn't taking into account is "star factor". The volume shooters who don't excel at many other things may not help you win the most games possible (I'm looking at you, Melo...), but they will sell you tickets and help drive up the stock of the franchise, which is undoubtedly a big reason why the owners pay them what they do. It's not always about wins, unfortunately.

Good point on David Lee and the Knicks by the way Hawkeye, I was going to mention the same thing. And hey, do you have any idea what Hollinger did to his pace-ratings last year that started calibrating all the teams differently?

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/paceFactor/year/2008

^'08

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/paceFactor/year/2009

^'09 I can't imagine it's possible that the league has slowed down that drastically overall in just a matter of 1 year...

Very true. The article I linked was written by a sports economist, and they generally think in logical, absolute terms (that the goal is to win games, that GM's will make rational decisions toward that goal), etc. Scorers do tend to draw in the crowd, and thereby sell tickets. But so does winning :D

Also, the article's author also writes books on the subject, and has his own statisical measure, Wins Produced. So in essence he's a competitor to Hollinger and his PER.

BOSTON617
08-10-2010, 04:27 PM
melo is not a top 5 player..... he is the best overrated player in the NBA

disagree he is def a top 5 player in the nba...

mikealike305
08-10-2010, 04:35 PM
disagree he is def a top 5 player in the nba...

naa... he's good... but not top 5... i'd say top 10... but he is a little overrated... IMO

tredigs
08-10-2010, 06:33 PM
disagree he is def a top 5 player in the nba...

I'd rather have: Lebron - Wade - Durant - Kobe - Cp3 - Deron Williams - Dwight Howard, off the top of my head. So I'd have him as 8th, highest. Pau, Dirk and even still Duncan are all arguable as well. In no way is he "definitely" top 5. His defense is too poor. I'd agree with the guy above me; As clutch as he is (and he really does pull together some awesome performances sometimes), Melo's a bit overrated.

Sixerlover
08-10-2010, 06:37 PM
Melo is overrated. 1 trick pony. He can score that's it.

Baller1
08-10-2010, 06:57 PM
i don't like looking at efficiency rating cause it doesn't tell you the whole story...melo is #11 but he's a top 5 player in the league

Melo is not top 5.

MiamiWadeCounty
08-10-2010, 06:58 PM
for a PG it is by far Rondo. not sayin hes the best but he can get pts asst rebs steals.

alencp3
08-10-2010, 06:59 PM
CP3 is close second when healthy i think?

Hawkeye15
08-10-2010, 07:28 PM
Paul is exponentially the most efficient PG, and its not even close.
As for PER, its
Paul- 23.74 (which is way under his career avg, expect him at 28+ next season again)
Nash- 21.67
Deron- 20.62
Billups- 20.25
Rondo- 19.18
Then is starts falling a bit to guys like Rose, Evans, Lou Williams

As for win shares per 48, its
Paul- .204 (again, in an injury year, should return to around .290)
Billups- .182
Nash- .178
Deron- .177
Rondo- .156

Its clear Rondo belongs on the fringe of being a top 5 efficient PG. Paul crushes everyone, and then its a tossup between who is better between Billups, Nash, and Deron

Paul


Deron
Nash
Billups


Rondo


sorta looks like the overall rankings to me....

illegallover
08-10-2010, 08:01 PM
the question is if

Player A averages 20 mins a game with an Eff of %10 is he more valuble than
Player B who averages 15 mins a game with an EFF of %15

RulerSlick
08-10-2010, 09:15 PM
Melo is overrated. 1 trick pony. He can score that's it.

very true:clap:

RulerSlick
08-11-2010, 03:39 AM
CP3 is close second when healthy i think?

Yes, Cp3 is the 2nd most eff player in the game when healthy.