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Philly 4 Life
08-07-2010, 02:02 PM
I never understood why people only say that kobe couldnt win without shaq or that kobe would never win without shaq, when shaq wouldnt have won without kobe and after shaq left kobe in LA he was with the 2nd best 2 guard in the world in D-Wade when he won, so in my opinion shaq needs a absolute superstar in his career like kobe and wade to win as well, and yet he didnt win last year with lebron or should i say lebron - i choke in the playoffs - james. Just curious why people never reversed the statement, because shaq never won without kobe or wade (the top 2 guards in the entire world).

DCSportsIsPain
08-07-2010, 02:08 PM
What mental defectives are supposedly saying this?

$KnicksAndKobe$
08-07-2010, 02:11 PM
In order to win a championship, you need more than one star on your team.

Mr Moody
08-07-2010, 02:12 PM
In order to win a championship, you need more than one star on your team.

+1 It's not that hard of a concept people...

kingcanadian409
08-07-2010, 02:15 PM
Eh, false, the pistons won in 04' without any true star. What do you consider their title was a result of?

$KnicksAndKobe$
08-07-2010, 02:18 PM
Eh, false, the pistons won in 04' without any true star. What do you consider their title was a result of?

They had 5 all-stars and one of the best front-court duo's ever

Result of winning was great defense, teamwork, and coaching.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2010, 02:21 PM
no matter how good a player is, they can not do it alone.

Kevj77
08-07-2010, 02:22 PM
Shaq was the man on that team, but he doesn't have the success without Kobe. Kobe was the closer on that team because of Shaq's terrible FTs. Shaq isn't exactly know for his game winners either. It's just something the Kobe haters use to try to marginalize Kobe's accomplishments. Haters gonna hate.

Hellcrooner
08-07-2010, 02:24 PM
Eh, false, the pistons won in 04' without any true star. What do you consider their title was a result of?

they were a TEAM that played like a TEAM where theres no I in TEAM.

Pity that kind of thing does not get tried more by franchises in the legue.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2010, 02:26 PM
they were a TEAM that played like a TEAM where theres no I in TEAM.

Pity that kind of thing does not get tried more by franchises in the legue.

its far harder to get 5 borderline all stars all in their primes at the same time I think, than a star, another all star player, and some role players.
The equation that was the 2004 Pistons is very difficult to duplicate, and seems to be a rare thing

Kevj77
08-07-2010, 02:31 PM
Don't forget about Penny, he was damn good before his knee got hurt, Shaq has always had a great guard to play with.

rabzouz 96
08-07-2010, 02:36 PM
I never understood why people only say that kobe couldnt win without shaq or that kobe would never win without shaq, when shaq wouldnt have won without kobe and after shaq left kobe in LA he was with the 2nd best 2 guard in the world in D-Wade when he won, so in my opinion shaq needs a absolute superstar in his career like kobe and wade to win as well, and yet he didnt win last year with lebron or should i say lebron - i choke in the playoffs - james. Just curious why people never reversed the statement, because shaq never won without kobe or wade (the top 2 guards in the entire world).

because at that time kobe was interchangable with pretty much every all star wing player and they still wouldve won it all due to prime shaq, whereas you couldnt interchange oneal against any other center, or else they wouldntve won it all.

iggypop123
08-07-2010, 02:38 PM
Eh, false, the pistons won in 04' without any true star. What do you consider their title was a result of?

karl malone's crippled knee

TrueFan420
08-07-2010, 02:40 PM
Eh, false, the pistons won in 04' without any true star. What do you consider their title was a result of?

they were the definition of a team. also dont forget that sheed had all the tools to be one of the greatest pf's he could do it all he just lacked the mental aspect. would have loved to have seen what sheed would have been if larry brown coached him for his whole career.

lakers4sho
08-07-2010, 02:52 PM
because at that time kobe was interchangable with pretty much every all star wing player and they still wouldve won it all due to prime shaq, whereas you couldnt interchange oneal against any other center, or else they wouldntve won it all.

And you say it as if it were a fact :rolleyes:

Avenged
08-07-2010, 02:57 PM
It was Shaq's team, he was the better player at the time, that's why he gets all the credit.

Yanks All Day
08-07-2010, 02:58 PM
Eh, false, the pistons won in 04' without any true star. What do you consider their title was a result of?

Unfortunately, the '04 Pistons were the exception to the rule, not the rule itself. These days, superstar combinations win titles, not truly great teams. The '04 Pistons were the definition of a team. Everyone had a role and played that role to the best of their abilities. Most teams now rely on 2 or 3 players to do everything and find role players to fit accordingly.

icon1914
08-07-2010, 03:04 PM
I never understood why people only say that kobe couldnt win without shaq or that kobe would never win without shaq, when shaq wouldnt have won without kobe and after shaq left kobe in LA he was with the 2nd best 2 guard in the world in D-Wade when he won, so in my opinion shaq needs a absolute superstar in his career like kobe and wade to win as well, and yet he didnt win last year with lebron or should i say lebron - i choke in the playoffs - james. Just curious why people never reversed the statement, because shaq never won without kobe or wade (the top 2 guards in the entire world).

Are we talking about the same James that took a nothing team to finals? The same James that scored like 25 consecutive points against Detroit and won the series? The same James that keep the the 2009 ECF half way competitive even when Mo Williams and Big Z failed to show up against the Magic? If you call that choking you have some very high standards.

I agree it takes at least two stars and some real solid role players to win. I think Shaq and Kobe owe each other a lot for the titles they won.

Minimal
08-07-2010, 03:06 PM
lebron or should i say lebron - i choke in the playoffs - james
He averaged almost triple double, had .500 FG% and .400 3P% last playoffs and you say he choked? Ohh I understand for you LeBron not choking is average triple double, make .600FG% and 500 3P%, right?
You are another dumbass LeBron hater!

SiR Lakers III
08-07-2010, 03:23 PM
^^^ Why don't you pick a team and be a fan and not some bandwagon Lebron nut hugging fan.

Grand Master B
08-07-2010, 03:27 PM
its simple really, Kobe is the most polarized player in the NBA. Although Lebron seems to be trying to take that title. People either love him or hate him.
- The side that hates him just can not believe that he has done anything worthy of being great.
- The side that love him are always OVER compensating how great he is because the haters wont give him any credit.

Flojo
08-07-2010, 03:30 PM
they were a TEAM that played like a TEAM where theres no I in TEAM.

Pity that kind of thing does not get tried more by franchises in the legue.

I'd say the Bulls are trying to accomplish that, to some extent. Although we do have two all-stars in Rose and Boozer, we're trying to make a championship push without any real superstar presence.

dwadefan03
08-07-2010, 03:35 PM
this guy lost all credability when he said lebron choked in the playoffs. i understand that ppl are upset at lebron but thats no reason to completely abandon all forms of logistics.

JasonJohnHorn
08-07-2010, 03:39 PM
Well, with players like Glen Rice, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Rick Fox and Robert Horry going through the Lakers system, and a coach like Phil Jackson, I think that Lakers team still would have pulled out a ring or two without Kobe. But we will never know. We do however know that Shaq got to the finals before Kobe and Wade were ever in the league, and at a very young age, and we know that Shaq was able to win with Wade. I think people assume that because Shaq was some physically dominant once he hit his prime, since the center position in the league was diluted after the greats like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing retried, and Mourning saw his career cut short, that Shaq's dominance in the paint, as long as it was surrounded with some talent, would have been able to win, where as Kobe, though the most dominant guard, didnt dominant in the same way that Shaq did. A team could handle 35 or 40 points from Kobe and still win the game, but if shaq had a 30 point 20 rebound night, the opposition was not going to win.

But regardless, basketball is a team sport, and nobody, not even Wilt Chamberlain, could win without a great team around them.

cheetos185
08-07-2010, 03:39 PM
shaq couldn't win by himself in orlando suns or cavs well by than he was tooo old

Law25
08-07-2010, 04:13 PM
because at that time kobe was interchangable with pretty much every all star wing player and they still wouldve won it all due to prime shaq, whereas you couldnt interchange oneal against any other center, or else they wouldntve won it all.

That is so false, and if it were true was Shaq not interchangable? Think about it, Kobe, Duncan, Phil Jackson, and that same cast. Would they not three peat. If History serves me correctly Duncan was an beast at that time, and in all ther matchups Kobe not Shaq is know for destroying the Spurs. Shaq was an beast im not taking anything from him, but to say kobe was interchangable is just WRONG. Imagine if Spurs were in the east and the Lakers played them at that time in the finals. Shaq would of had to go at it against an real low post threat.Would he had still won all his MVP's? Im just saying give respect where it is due. They won those chips together, and both were of equal value to their rings PERIOD.

Sixerlover
08-07-2010, 04:15 PM
Every star needs another star to truly make some noise. But the 00-02 lakers were Shaq's teams. Just like the 08-10 Lakers are Kobe's teams

lakers4sho
08-07-2010, 04:17 PM
It was Shaq's team, he was the better player at the time, that's why he gets all the credit.

But he wouldn't have won without Kobe. So it goes both ways.

Philly 4 Life
08-07-2010, 04:55 PM
He averaged almost triple double, had .500 FG% and .400 3P% last playoffs and you say he choked? Ohh I understand for you LeBron not choking is average triple double, make .600FG% and 500 3P%, right?
You are another dumbass LeBron hater!

no im talken bout how he choked against boston, da dude couldnt hit a shot, and people are sayen its because delonte ****ed his mom, well i doubt that because superstars are suppposed 2 play through anything and be locked in during the game he choked in the series and that was da reason that they again didnt make the finals

Avenged
08-07-2010, 05:09 PM
But he wouldn't have won without Kobe. So it goes both ways.

Lol It always sounds like I'm against Kobe.

But yes, I agree. I'm just looking at it through non Laker fans perspective.

Shaq gets all the credit because it was his team at the time.

But Shaq wouldn't have done it without Kobe if you look at the lineup they had minus Kobe and all the times Kobe bailed them out.

Steelers23_06
08-07-2010, 05:34 PM
no im talken bout how he choked against boston, da dude couldnt hit a shot, and people are sayen its because delonte ****ed his mom, well i doubt that because superstars are suppposed 2 play through anything and be locked in during the game he choked in the series and that was da reason that they again didnt make the finals

27 points, 19 rebounds, and 10 assists-yea thats a horrible game. lebron is horrible. is that what you want to hear. even though he had a bad series he still carried them. speak facts not pointless babble of what your simple mind thinks up

thaboss318
08-07-2010, 05:49 PM
This is the thing...it does go both ways...They needed each other to win...but most true Laker fans know...opposing teams' number 1 goal was to stop Shaq....and for Shaq to still dominate with teams scheming to stop him first...says a lot

NYYCowboys
08-07-2010, 05:52 PM
It's not like Kobe has won a championship on his own anyway. The Lakers are stacked with good players like Gasol, Artest, Odom and Bynum. Sure he was the best player on the team, but he didnt "win on his own". Just like the team with Shaq where he was the best player.

Steelers23_06
08-07-2010, 06:04 PM
you cant win it alone idc who you are its never been done and unless there is someone that is tall as yao, big as shaq, can dunk like vince, dribble like a.i., pass like nash and drive like lebron we will never see it happen.

Kashmir13579
08-07-2010, 06:13 PM
They had 5 all-stars and one of the best front-court duo's ever

Result of winning was great defense, teamwork, and coaching.

they were so hard nosed; really fun to watch. tayshauns block on reggie miller is arguably the biggest block in the history of the nba playoffs. and your absolutely right, they had five stars and an amazing bench. lindsay hunter was the man.

IDB Josh M
08-07-2010, 06:29 PM
This win with and win without argument is ridiculous! Blah blah blah Kobe can't win without Shaq ... blah blah blah Phil Jackson can't win without the best players ... blah blah blah ... its annoying as hell!

If you want to be a dick about it all, just remember that the best player ever is Shaq, and not Jordan. He's the only player that was able to win without Phil Jackson. Not Jordan, Kobe, PIppen, Duncan (with Poppa) or anyone else that a great player. The only reason shaq couldn't win with the "King" is because the "king" was that bad of a player.

/s

thekmp211
08-07-2010, 06:43 PM
This win with and win without argument is ridiculous! Blah blah blah Kobe can't win without Shaq ... blah blah blah Phil Jackson can't win without the best players ... blah blah blah ... its annoying as hell!

If you want to be a dick about it all, just remember that the best player ever is Shaq, and not Jordan. He's the only player that was able to win without Phil Jackson. Not Jordan, Kobe, PIppen, Duncan (with Poppa) or anyone else that a great player. The only reason shaq couldn't win with the "King" is because the "king" was that bad of a player.

/s

huh?

junion
08-07-2010, 07:27 PM
This win with and win without argument is ridiculous! Blah blah blah Kobe can't win without Shaq ... blah blah blah Phil Jackson can't win without the best players ... blah blah blah ... its annoying as hell!

If you want to be a dick about it all, just remember that the best player ever is Shaq, and not Jordan. He's the only player that was able to win without Phil Jackson. Not Jordan, Kobe, PIppen, Duncan (with Poppa) or anyone else that a great player. The only reason shaq couldn't win with the "King" is because the "king" was that bad of a player.

/s
generally you need multiple stars to win... a combination of kobe and shaq has a lot of star power... but so do 5 players (detroit) with less individual star power - each player had less star power, but combined they were a big force still.

and i also agree with the guy who mentioned the Bulls. they don't have kobe, wade, lebron, bosh, or any of the top stars, but they have a team that, combined can be a big force. that's what makes me scared of them, and at the same time excited to see play.

ajsulli1919
08-07-2010, 07:38 PM
double post, sorry---post is below.

ajsulli1919
08-07-2010, 07:40 PM
:)
He averaged almost triple double, had .500 FG% and .400 3P% last playoffs and you say he choked? Ohh I understand for you LeBron not choking is average triple double, make .600FG% and 500 3P%, right?
You are another dumbass LeBron hater!

I bet him and anyone else including me would rather be that instead of a bandwagon b-iatch.....I bet you rooted for Cleveland last year huh?

Let the record show I am not a LeBron hater but am just against the awful way he did it and have lost all respect for him.:)

Jaji
08-07-2010, 08:33 PM
Simple explanation: No one can win a title by themselves. It's a team game. The best team wins, not necessarily the best player.

Jaji
08-07-2010, 08:36 PM
no im talken bout how he choked against boston, da dude couldnt hit a shot, and people are sayen its because delonte ****ed his mom, well i doubt that because superstars are suppposed 2 play through anything and be locked in during the game he choked in the series and that was da reason that they again didnt make the finals

You mean like when Jordan retired after his father died?

:facepalm:

SouthSideRookie
08-07-2010, 10:23 PM
you cant win it alone idc who you are its never been done and unless there is someone that is tall as yao, big as shaq, can dunk like vince, dribble like a.i., pass like nash and drive like lebron we will never see it happen.

Go back and look at the Rockets roster from 94 and see if Olajuwon had an allstar on his squad. On Shaq, he had a very good team in Orlando, they were the heavy favorites to win the title the year they got to the Finals, we all know what happened.

Hellcrooner
08-07-2010, 10:59 PM
Go back and look at the Rockets roster from 94 and see if Olajuwon had an allstar on his squad. On Shaq, he had a very good team in Orlando, they were the heavy favorites to win the title the year they got to the Finals, we all know what happened.

Sam Cassell and Otis thorpe did play allstar games.

An d e ha d a HELL of a suprting cast with some of the best Role players of the moment like Maxwell, Herrera, Kanny Smith, Robert Horry or Mario Elie.

OSme of them were a Hell of defenders and others where three point gods.

So that team had to win.

SouthSideRookie
08-07-2010, 11:26 PM
Sam Cassell and Otis thorpe did play allstar games.

An d e ha d a HELL of a suprting cast with some of the best Role players of the moment like Maxwell, Herrera, Kanny Smith, Robert Horry or Mario Elie.

OSme of them were a Hell of defenders and others where three point gods.

So that team had to win.

Cassell was a rookie, how could he have been an allstar? My point is people are saying it takes 2 superstars which I agree that usually that is the case but to say Lebron would have never won in Cleveland is just not true, especially with this notion that hes the "chosen one"

Philly 4 Life
08-07-2010, 11:43 PM
You mean like when Jordan retired after his father died?

:facepalm:

read da rest of that thing i rote b4 u comment because the next words are and be locked in during a game, which means if they decide to keep playen then they are supposed 2 block out everything and focus on playing the game, kind of like brett favre did on monday night football when his father died and had the game of the year for him that night. I am not saying that they are going to play through anything but if they do decide to play then yes they are suppposed to have everything blocked out besides playing

Storch
08-07-2010, 11:48 PM
Because people like to hate on kobe and haters like to sing the same song over and over again. Monkey see monkey do.

Jaji
08-08-2010, 12:07 AM
Go back and look at the Rockets roster from 94 and see if Olajuwon had an allstar on his squad. On Shaq, he had a very good team in Orlando, they were the heavy favorites to win the title the year they got to the Finals, we all know what happened.

Clyde Drexler! He was averaging over 20 a game that year. Robert Horry one of the most clutch players of all time, Kenny Smith and Cassel (who was in his 2nd year then, not a rookie), Mario Ellie, Vernon Maxwell, Otis Thorpe... That team was very deep and did include another All Star. Keep in mind that the Rockets won both titles in the years MJ was out (he came back at the end of their 2nd championship season). The Bulls won the title 3 years in a row before that and 3 years in a row after that. The Rockets took advantage and were very fortunate they didn't run into MJ's Bulls because they left a lot of HOF guys ringless.

Jaji
08-08-2010, 12:18 AM
read da rest of that thing i rote b4 u comment because the next words are and be locked in during a game, which means if they decide to keep playen then they are supposed 2 block out everything and focus on playing the game, kind of like brett favre did on monday night football when his father died and had the game of the year for him that night. I am not saying that they are going to play through anything but if they do decide to play then yes they are suppposed to have everything blocked out besides playing

So LeBron was supposed to retire? He decided he was done with Cleveland. They couldn't bring in enough help for him and the guys they did bring in were screwing his mother. And Cleveland is a lame city. It was time to move on. And even in his "bad game" he had a triple double so... :shrug:

SupeUnagi
08-08-2010, 12:20 AM
It was Shaq's team, he was the better player at the time, that's why he gets all the credit.

basically
leader of the team get the credit

PrettyBoyJ
08-08-2010, 12:20 AM
Ppl who say these things are ignorant and dont know the history of the game.. All the great players had someone as there number 2..

SupeUnagi
08-08-2010, 12:23 AM
Clyde Drexler! He was averaging over 20 a game that year. Robert Horry one of the most clutch players of all time, Kenny Smith and Cassel (who was in his 2nd year then, not a rookie), Mario Ellie, Vernon Maxwell, Otis Thorpe... That team was very deep and did include another All Star. Keep in mind that the Rockets won both titles in the years MJ was out (he came back at the end of their 2nd championship season). The Bulls won the title 3 years in a row before that and 3 years in a row after that. The Rockets took advantage and were very fortunate they didn't run into MJ's Bulls because they left a lot of HOF guys ringless.

i believe hes referring to the year before that. otis thorpe was his number 2

Jaji
08-08-2010, 12:33 AM
i believe hes referring to the year before that. otis thorpe was his number 2

But he clearly said against Orlando. He did confuse it by saying 94 so I don't really know what he was talking about :laugh2:.

But both titles were by default, regardless. The Bulls would have beat the Knicks (because they always used to beat the Knicks) and most likely Houston too. And I love Olajuwon too but I'm also a realist.

moshy2
08-08-2010, 12:38 AM
Shaq couldnt do it without wade but kobe couldnt do it without gasol

MTar786
08-08-2010, 11:00 AM
because at that time kobe was interchangable with pretty much every all star wing player and they still wouldve won it all due to prime shaq, whereas you couldnt interchange oneal against any other center, or else they wouldntve won it all.

as much as i know shaq was more reason than kobe in those 3 championships ur statement isnt true. shaq was may fav player from 1999-05 and if u took out kobe from la and put mcgrady they still would have won atleast 2 rings... Just like if la traded shaq for tim duncan la still would have won atleast 2 rings

MTar786
08-08-2010, 11:01 AM
Shaq couldnt do it without wade but kobe couldnt do it without gasol

thats why the lakers were the number 1 team in the west record wise just before la traded for pau?

look it up

Hawkeye15
08-08-2010, 11:18 AM
thats why the lakers were the number 1 team in the west record wise just before la traded for pau?

look it up

the Lakers were not going to win it all without Gasol is probably what he meant. Who knows