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Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 03:38 PM
A term that some use, in various ways, to describe different players. What does it mean to you? Should a great player who was drafted into a great scenario, and won a ring(s) within their first few years, be credited with loyalty like a player such as Paul Pierce for example? Are there different kinds? List examples if possible..
Hoping to keep this up long enough to get some real opinions. Stuff like this turns ugly quick at times, so be nice kids

king4day
08-06-2010, 03:46 PM
Pierce is loyal to Boston just like KG was loyal to Minny. They dealt him, so that will always be there.
Guys Like Lebron, Bosh, Boozer, are not.

There's really only one type. If someone doesn't complain about wanting to be traded and stays as long as he can, then they're loyal. If they leave for money or to chase success, then they aren't. I don't think that can be debated either.

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 03:47 PM
Pierce is loyal to Boston just like KG was loyal to Minny. They dealt him, so that will always be there.
Guys Like Lebron, Bosh, Boozer, are not.

explain

king4day
08-06-2010, 03:50 PM
explain

Bosh never gave the Raps a chance to win with him. He always knew he'd be leaving and before this season, barring an amazing year from Toronto, no one thought he'd stay.
Lebron failed as a Cav and went to a safe bet. He knew that franchise bent over backwards for him and didn't stay to give them another chance.
Boozer jumped to where the money was when he was in Cleveland years ago and then bolted a good thing in Utah for another good thing in Chicago.

That's not loyalty. It's not a bad thing, but loyalty is KG not wanting to leave the Wolves even at their worst times. He was there through bad and good and bad again until Minny wanted to move in another direction.
Pierce stayed with Boston when he was a free agent, before they got the big 3.

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 03:51 PM
Bosh never gave the Raps a chance to win with him. He always knew he'd be leaving and before this season, barring an amazing year from Toronto, no one thought he'd stay.
Lebron failed as a Cav and went to a safe bet. He knew that franchise bent over backwards for him and didn't stay to give them another chance.
Boozer jumped to where the money was when he was in Cleveland years ago and then bolted a good thing in Utah for another good thing in Chicago.

That's not loyalty. It's not a bad thing, but loyalty is KG not wanting to leave the Wolves even at their worst times. He was there through bad and good and bad again until Minny wanted to move in another direction.
Pierce stayed with Boston when he was a free agent, before they got the big 3.

should Kobe and Duncan be in the same classification as Pierce for example?

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 03:52 PM
also, I wouldn't call Boozer a ring chaser. I don't know what he is, but rings haven't been his motivation.

king4day
08-06-2010, 03:52 PM
Other examples of loyalty is Hill and Nash staying in Phoenix, knowing they have relatively no chance at a ring.
Dirk or Duncan taking less to stay with their teams.

Bryrob58
08-06-2010, 03:53 PM
Bosh never gave the Raps a chance to win with him. He always knew he'd be leaving and before this season, barring an amazing year from Toronto, no one thought he'd stay.
Lebron failed as a Cav and went to a safe bet. He knew that franchise bent over backwards for him and didn't stay to give them another chance.
Boozer jumped to where the money was when he was in Cleveland years ago and then bolted a good thing in Utah for another good thing in Chicago.

That's not loyalty. It's not a bad thing, but loyalty is KG not wanting to leave the Wolves even at their worst times. He was there through bad and good and bad again until Minny wanted to move in another direction.
Pierce stayed with Boston when he was a free agent, before they got the big 3.

He gave them 7 years, Colangelo just did a poor job surrounding him with talent.

Your point is solid though.

king4day
08-06-2010, 03:53 PM
should Kobe and Duncan be in the same classification as Pierce for example?

Duncan more so.
While we'll never know how serious Kobe was, he did demand a trade. I can't recall if Pierce ever did, but I don't think so.

king4day
08-06-2010, 03:55 PM
He gave them 7 years, Colangelo just did a poor job surrounding him with talent.

Your point is solid though.

I agree. The same can be said for Lebron too.
And while he did a poor job surrounding him, he did try. When Colangelo got there, they started building a team that made you think Toronto would finally break through and be a contender. Injuries, slow development, and some bad decisions sank them though.

DCSportsIsPain
08-06-2010, 03:56 PM
If a player bails at first opportunity to go to an already championship caliber team, then he is a "ringchaser." Players who give the team that drafted them little or no opportunity to build around them are ringchasers.

iam brett favre
08-06-2010, 03:57 PM
ring chasers are better then paper chasers

tredigs
08-06-2010, 03:58 PM
I'd like to ask why a player in basketball SHOULD be loyal, in the context that "if I don't think I'm in the best place to further maximize what I'm capable to do in my 12 or so years as a basketball player, why should I stay?"

These guys were not given a choice as to what organization they were drafted to. And this is a league where the players are on a seemingly constantly churning swap meet, so it's not as if leaving your team is like leaving a family. You never see a role player get scrutinized by fans for wanting to leave, only those who are greater than the rest.

This isn't a dictatorship, a player should be allotted at least one "free pass" in their basketball career to actually decide for once where it is they want to play, rather than everyone else. They worked their *** off their entire lives to get to the point they're at, so I'd argue that it's the least that they deserve.

DCSportsIsPain
08-06-2010, 04:01 PM
I'd like to ask why a player in basketball SHOULD be loyal, in the context that "if I don't think I'm in the best place to further maximize what I'm capable to do in my 12 or so years as a basketball player, why should I stay?"

These guys were not given a choice as to what organization they were drafted to. And this is a league where the players are on a seemingly constantly churning swap meet, so it's not as if leaving your team is like leaving a family. You never see a role player get scrutinized by fans for wanting to leave, only those who are greater than the rest.

This isn't a dictatorship, a player should be allotted at least one "free pass" in their basketball career to actually decide for once where it is they want to play, rather than everyone else. They worked their *** off their entire lives to get to the point they're at, so I'd argue that it's the least that they deserve.

The argument could be made that we think less of Karl Malone and John Stockton and Patrick Ewing and many others because they were loyal instead of ringchasers.

tredigs
08-06-2010, 04:03 PM
Also, it's highly circumstantial. Should a guy like Kobe Bryant or Tim Duncan really be given any more credit than someone like Tracy McGrady or Lebron? The prior two were drafted into the most ideal situations possible; amazing coaches, fantastic ownership and a top 3 big in the league right along their side to help them grow. All things are not equal, and more people need to respect that.



The argument could be made that we think less of Karl Malone and John Stockton and Patrick Ewing and many others because they were loyal instead of ringchasers.

Karl Malone: Top 3 PF ALL TIME
John Stockton: Top 3 PG ALL TIME - Playing under one of the best run organizations in the league - again, is that honestly fair to compare? And AGAIN, why should a player not have the right to choose at least ONCE where they want to play for a change?

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 04:03 PM
I'd like to ask why a player in basketball SHOULD be loyal, in the context that "if I don't think I'm in the best place to further maximize what I'm capable to do in my 12 or so years as a basketball player, why should I stay?"

These guys were not given a choice as to what organization they were drafted to. And this is a league where the players are on a seemingly constantly churning swap meet, so it's not as if leaving your team is like leaving a family. You never see a role player get scrutinized by fans for wanting to leave, only those who are greater than the rest.

This isn't a dictatorship, a player should be allotted at least one "free pass" in their basketball career to actually decide for once where it is they want to play, rather than everyone else. They worked their *** off their entire lives to get to the point they're at, so I'd argue that it's the least that they deserve.


I will follow your statement with this- I agree entirely. And I don't think a player should be judged for leaving a team to pursue a ring. I also don't think a player who walked into a perfect winning situation deserves a single kudos for staying. Why would they leave a team that delivered them millions of dollars, awards, and championships? They do not deserve to be called loyal or given credit for anything other than being a fantastic player for a great organization. There are only so many teams that are run well enough to compete year in and year out for a number of years. If you are not on one of these organizations, your chance of winning slides.
I have never heard anyone criticizing Robert Horry.

Bryrob58
08-06-2010, 04:06 PM
Wow that was some fine posting, Tredigs.

junion
08-06-2010, 04:19 PM
it depends on the fan and the player. if a fan hates a player, they'll find something to discredit them. kobe stayed with the lakers his whole career, but he demaded a trade. lebron decided to bail on the cavs, but they failed to surround him with a championship caliber team. boozer's not a ring chaser, but he's a paper chaser.

also i dont think a player has to be loyal. after a player is traded, we always hear the cliche, "this is a business"... why can't the players have that mindset. if the organizations are doing what's best for business, why can't the players do what's best for their business and themselves.

who are we to judge why people play in the nba? some people want to chase rings. some people just want to make money. i don't think there's anything wrong with that. some people would want to support their family and extended family forever by taking the most money, while some want to be recognized with the greats of the sport. and few players are able to do both - they're the very fortunate. and some players want to be loyal.

as long as a player achieves his goal (whether it's championships, money, loyalty, fame, etc), then it's all good and we shouldn't judge whether they did the right thing or not.

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 04:23 PM
it depends on the fan and the player. if a fan hates a player, they'll find something to discredit them. kobe stayed with the lakers his whole career, but he demaded a trade. lebron decided to bail on the cavs, but they failed to surround him with a championship caliber team. boozer's not a ring chaser, but he's a paper chaser.

also i dont think a player has to be loyal. after a player is traded, we always hear the cliche, "this is a business"... why can't the players have that mindset. if the organizations are doing what's best for business, why can't the players do what's best for their business and themselves.

who are we to judge why people play in the nba? some people want to chase rings. some people just want to make money. i don't think there's anything wrong with that. some people would want to support their family and extended family forever by taking the most money, while some want to be recognized with the greats of the sport. and few players are able to do both - they're the very fortunate. and some players want to be loyal.

as long as a player achieves his goal (whether it's championships, money, loyalty, fame, etc), then it's all good and we shouldn't judge whether they did the right thing or not.

this is exactly why I started the thread quite honestly. It's just bothersome that many here, and in general, will do anything possible to call out players they don't like, while completely contradicting themselves.
This subject is a total matter of opinion. There is no right or wrong answer. But when you use a term like "ringchaser", you should have the ability to rationally explain it, and using Kobe and Duncan or Magic and Bird are pathetic examples

Master Mind
08-06-2010, 04:34 PM
If you're not chasing rings then what you're playing for, that's the name of the game. There's no loyalty in sports, leverage has a lot to do in these cases. From the top (FO) to the bottom (players) they're all ring chasers, if a player leaves in search of a better chance of winning he's a ring chaser and by some ppl's logic that player is a coward--same goes for players who demands to be traded. But if the FO decides to trade/cut players in order to acquire a star then they're doing their job, where's the loyalty there?

Russell_Roberts
08-06-2010, 04:36 PM
if thats the case dirk is loyal... how would u say ring chaser and u named all these players thats going to different teamns i can see if the team won multiple championships then jump on the wagon. so basically your saying there is more than 1 ring?

Russell_Roberts
08-06-2010, 04:37 PM
is amare a ring chaser... and kg isnt loyal player then.

Shmontaine
08-06-2010, 04:40 PM
ring chasers are better then paper chasers

most ring chasers already have the paper... so yeah, if you're good enough to already have the money, you should be better...

numba1CHANGsta
08-06-2010, 04:41 PM
Loyals: Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, Pierce
Non Loyals: Shaq, Lebron, Bosh

mark1125
08-06-2010, 04:41 PM
also, I wouldn't call Boozer a ring chaser. I don't know what he is, but rings haven't been his motivation.

He chases the money.

WeBallin
08-06-2010, 04:47 PM
Hey Hawkeye i've read a number of your post an you talk bout Kobe an Duncan in regards to them bein in a perfect situation, The Spurs where not the Spurs until they got Duncan cause when the admiral was there i don't recall any chips in fact the spurs had to tank the season to get ducan, an the Kobe deal he was orginally an Hornet but great GM move got Kobe in LA, BTW not Kobe fault, an yes LB gave cleveand 7 years but the state of Ohio made him who he is today, if it wasn't for the AAU teams or the high school team he attended he may have never been who he is today, so yes IMO LB is a ring chaser, Duncan was a key piece to a dynasty, an Kobe as much as i hate to say it is a ultimate competitor an yes he DEMANDED a trade as many of you have said but at least he made the team accountabe an not the fans as LBJ had....I would have had more respect for LBJ had he just demanded the team to get better with the threat of leavin if no changes were made an although you guys will say he spent 7 years there it takes time to right a whole lot a wrong, an there was certainly more wrong in cle befor those 7 years LB got there, an sometimes u gotta go through it. kobe did it, Peirce did it, My 2004 pistons did it.....LBJ is an will forever go down as the youngest ring chaser ever!

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 04:52 PM
Hey Hawkeye i've read a number of your post an you talk bout Kobe an Duncan in regards to them bein in a perfect situation, The Spurs where not the Spurs until they got Duncan cause when the admiral was there i don't recall any chips in fact the spurs had to tank the season to get ducan, an the Kobe deal he was orginally an Hornet but great GM move got Kobe in LA, BTW not Kobe fault, an yes LB gave cleveand 7 years but the state of Ohio made him who he is today, if it wasn't for the AAU teams or the high school team he attended he may have never been who he is today, so yes IMO LB is a ring chaser, Duncan was a key piece to a dynasty, an Kobe as much as i hate to say it is a ultimate competitor an yes he DEMANDED a trade as many of you have said but at least he made the team accountabe an not the fans as LBJ had....I would have had more respect for LBJ had he just demanded the team to get better with the threat of leavin if no changes were made an although you guys will say he spent 7 years there it takes time to right a whole lot a wrong, an there was certainly more wrong in cle befor those 7 years LB got there, an sometimes u gotta go through it. kobe did it, Peirce did it, My 2004 pistons did it.....LBJ is an will forever go down as the youngest ring chaser ever!


The Spurs were 59-23 the year before Robinson went down. And yes, the Spurs held a healthy Robinson out for many games to get a shot at a high pick. Tim walked into a team that was essentially the same team that went to the WCF two years previous. Ideal situation to say the least.
What exactly did Kobe go through?

tredigs
08-06-2010, 04:56 PM
Loyals: Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, Pierce
Non Loyals: Shaq, Lebron, Bosh

Coming out of their rookie contracts: Kobe had the best player in the league and was on a championship team. Dirk has always had stacked teams - be it prime Josh Howard/Jason Terry/Dev. Harris or Steve Nash and Michael Finley - he had great ownership and great help around him; No reason to go. I could go on.

You could argue "loyalty" for Paul Pierce (although he still was in a better situation by playing for the top organization in the league and having the benefit of knowing they were clearing cap space for the inclusion of the "big three" once it was his contract time), but certainly not for a guy like Kobe or even Duncan. Duncan would be classified under "Who knows?", while with Kobe we do know - he will demand a trade until he receives the best all around team in the league again like he grew up with. That's not to say that Kobe didn't have a crap team, he did - and I don't blame him. But those are the facts. Given that he did that, it's fairly obvious what he would have done had he been drafted to a place like Toronto or Cleveland (hint: got the hell out of dodge).

Htownballa1622
08-06-2010, 05:01 PM
Hey Hawkeye i've read a number of your post an you talk bout Kobe an Duncan in regards to them bein in a perfect situation, The Spurs where not the Spurs until they got Duncan cause when the admiral was there i don't recall any chips in fact the spurs had to tank the season to get ducan, an the Kobe deal he was orginally an Hornet but great GM move got Kobe in LA, BTW not Kobe fault, an yes LB gave cleveand 7 years but the state of Ohio made him who he is today, if it wasn't for the AAU teams or the high school team he attended he may have never been who he is today, so yes IMO LB is a ring chaser, Duncan was a key piece to a dynasty, an Kobe as much as i hate to say it is a ultimate competitor an yes he DEMANDED a trade as many of you have said but at least he made the team accountabe an not the fans as LBJ had....I would have had more respect for LBJ had he just demanded the team to get better with the threat of leavin if no changes were made an although you guys will say he spent 7 years there it takes time to right a whole lot a wrong, an there was certainly more wrong in cle befor those 7 years LB got there, an sometimes u gotta go through it. kobe did it, Peirce did it, My 2004 pistons did it.....LBJ is an will forever go down as the youngest ring chaser ever!


So lebron is a ring chaser because he wants to take less to win? In that case...is kobe a ring chaser? He wanted to be traded.lebron did his time and left rightfully.he not once spoke of free agency until time.the only downfall is he handled it wrong.you lakers fan are quick to jump on lebron for anything.fact is...had pau not gone to l.a. kobe would most likely be gone from l.a.....so since when is it bad to wasn't to win.i think a ring chaser would be penny trying to play for heat.

WeBallin
08-06-2010, 05:02 PM
When Kobe had that team with Threat, Nick VanExcel, Jones i mean they were good in terms of league standards but they were not contending for chips, An ok the spurs were a WCF team okay but then what they had to do was tank to get a superstar player so in other words they wasn't as close as one thinks if they had to tank an entire season to land a No#1 player so although the record looked good, so did Lebron's regular season record if thats the case an he still left......So

Htownballa1622
08-06-2010, 05:05 PM
And you lakers fans is directed to lakers fans quick to hate on lebron.

WeBallin
08-06-2010, 05:07 PM
So lebron is a ring chaser because he wants to take less to win? In that case...is kobe a ring chaser? He wanted to be traded.lebron did his time and left rightfully.he not once spoke of free agency until time.the only downfall is he handled it wrong.you lakers fan are quick to jump on lebron for anything.fact is...had pau not gone to l.a. kobe would most likely be gone from l.a.....so since when is it bad to wasn't to win.i think a ring chaser would be penny trying to play for heat.

I live in Florida comin from Michigan an he didn't take less it seems that way cause of the dollar amount reported, but he don't have to pay city taxes so in essesnse its almost identical to what the cavs could have gave him, oh am i'm definitely not a Kobe fan but he pushed the front office to make moves, If you call penny a ring chaser u gotta call LB one too cause he left his team to join another guy team now don'r get me wrong he was a FA so it was his decesion but what about the fans? the ones who packed that stadium up to go see him, LBJ is a buster!

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 05:09 PM
When Kobe had that team with Threat, Nick VanExcel, Jones i mean they were good in terms of league standards but they were not contending for chips, An ok the spurs were a WCF team okay but then what they had to do was tank to get a superstar player so in other words they wasn't as close as one thinks if they had to tank an entire season to land a No#1 player so although the record looked good, so did Lebron's regular season record if thats the case an he still left......So

oh, you mean after he won 3 championships. And being a Lakers fan is like being a Yankees fan. If they aren't a top 3 team, its "tough times".
If you understand trends, you know the Spurs were an elite team for a few years before that one bad season, and ever since. So you will have to pardon me overlooking their one year of bad circumstances...
Basically, Kobe and Duncan are loyal, but it would take a complete ****** to walk away from the situations they landed upon, so they don't deserve to be hyped as loyal players who "stuck by" their franchises in hard times

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 05:10 PM
And you lakers fans is directed to lakers fans quick to hate on lebron.

and this is why threads get closed. Instead of posting rational ideas, you start getting posters who focus on their guy, and crap on everyone else.

nanablvd
08-06-2010, 05:12 PM
A term that some use, in various ways, to describe different players. What does it mean to you? Should a great player who was drafted into a great scenario, and won a ring(s) within their first few years, be credited with loyalty like a player such as Paul Pierce for example? Are there different kinds? List examples if possible..
Hoping to keep this up long enough to get some real opinions. Stuff like this turns ugly quick at times, so be nice kids

There is no such thing as loyalty in the business world. Everyone is selfish and has his own goals, whether it be a ring, money, happiness, or a legacy to be remembered. You can say Paul Pierce is loyal since he never switches team, but it could be his long term goal to be remembered as one of the greatest Celtics ever. Who knows if he would have switched teams long ago if he was drafted by another team of little history. In this capitalistic country, loyalty is just a diplomatic way of praising someone.

WeBallin
08-06-2010, 05:15 PM
oh, you mean after he won 3 championships. And being a Lakers fan is like being a Yankees fan. If they aren't a top 3 team, its "tough times".
If you understand trends, you know the Spurs were an elite team for a few years before that one bad season, and ever since. So you will have to pardon me overlooking their one year of bad circumstances...
Basically, Kobe and Duncan are loyal, but it would take a complete ****** to walk away from the situations they landed upon, so they don't deserve to be hyped as loyal players who "stuck by" their franchises in hard times

I get what your sayin but, what you doin is blamin a player for being loyal to a franchise that is loyal to winnin, if you look back at all the champions in this league the majority of them are from franchise with multiple chips in frequent manner, an owner that are committed to winnin an i think thats the difference, if i'm a player i'm more incline to stay with a winnin organzation through there ups in downs if i know for certain that franchise is committted an i think thats more to it then jus the players

Da Knicks
08-06-2010, 05:16 PM
When Kobe had that team with Threat, Nick VanExcel, Jones i mean they were good in terms of league standards but they were not contending for chips, An ok the spurs were a WCF team okay but then what they had to do was tank to get a superstar player so in other words they wasn't as close as one thinks if they had to tank an entire season to land a No#1 player so although the record looked good, so did Lebron's regular season record if thats the case an he still left......So

So Lebron came in to the sorriest team in the league and made the team relevant, made them money, gave them a chance to win. Seven years is a long time when the career you are in lasts an average of twelve years. Kobe and Pierce went to BOSTON, LOS ANGELES way different than going to say cleveland where no free agents want to go. I recall Boozer leaving, Artest declining to go and Ariza going to Houston over cleveland.

Ring chasers are in my book the old guys that go to an established team and dont play and get a ring. Nothing is a giving for the Heat just as it was with Mcgrady and Hill back in the day. Things happen and injuries can happen anytime. The thing is that people will always go against top players leaving because they are the face of the franchise but how many of us would leave our job if a job with more prestige came about? Its not always about the money sometimes its having a chance to become or attaining something you have always coveted.

cle12152433
08-06-2010, 05:16 PM
it means quitting on your hometown and fans to go do it the easy way and let two other guys do the work....LAZINESS

Htownballa1622
08-06-2010, 05:16 PM
I live in Florida comin from Michigan an he didn't take less it seems that way cause of the dollar amount reported, but he don't have to pay city taxes so in essesnse its almost identical to what the cavs could have gave him, oh am i'm definitely not a Kobe fan but he pushed the front office to make moves, If you call penny a ring chaser u gotta call LB one too cause he left his team to join another guy team now don'r get me wrong he was a FA so it was his decesion but what about the fans? the ones who packed that stadium up to go see him, LBJ is a buster!

Ok so he put his legacy on the line to win and still he would be a main contributor.penny would be what? Last guy off the bench? He owes cleveland nothing.there's a word for people like you calling him a buster...its called HATER.i bet if he went to your team you would think otherwise.i respect his playing abilit.? Why be a hater for no reason?

Htownballa1622
08-06-2010, 05:21 PM
and this is why threads get closed. Instead of posting rational ideas, you start getting posters who focus on their guy, and crap on everyone else.

No I'm not saying anything bad about lakers fans.i was simply correcting my previous post saying that lakers fans or people defending kobe are w quick to hate lebron.nothing against them.I'm a rockets fan.but you know lebron gets ridiculed unfairly by those fans.i was simply clarifying who hates on him unnecessarily

Avenged
08-06-2010, 05:22 PM
Loyals: Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, Pierce
Non Loyals: Shaq, Lebron, Bosh

Kobe did demand a trade so it can be argued that he isn't loyal but the fact remains that he never left and has only played for one professional team his whole NBA career. I mean perhaps the best way to distinguish loyalty and what not is to put them in a class. Players like Dirk, Duncan, Pierce to name a few should be put up on a "higher" class of loyalty you can say. While players like Kobe, Garnett, Malone, and even Jordan on a lower level of loyalty.

I don't think it's fair to fault a player as not being loyal or whatnot simply because he started off with a good team early in his career. The fact of the matter is these guys still remained with their teams throughout the majority of their prime.

Malone basically left Utah to "ring chase" and the same can be said about Garnett although it was through a trade. But on record, KG has said he wished he would have left Minny earlier in his career if he had the chance all over again.

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 05:23 PM
I get what your sayin but, what you doin is blamin a player for being loyal to a franchise that is loyal to winnin, if you look back at all the champions in this league the majority of them are from franchise with multiple chips in frequent manner, an owner that are committed to winnin an i think thats the difference, if i'm a player i'm more incline to stay with a winnin organzation through there ups in downs if i know for certain that franchise is committted an i think thats more to it then jus the players

no man, I am not blaming. Not in the slightest. But I am saying, players that walk into ideal scenarios and win right away, especially those that win more than one right away, don't need to be heralded as loyal players. And why are you defending Kobe then? He won 3 rings, his team took a slight downturn, and he demanded a trade from an organization that not only helped give him 3 rings, but has a history of winning. Shouldn't he stay through the ups and downs then, and not complain?

And really, I was just looking for different opinions on why certain players are ring chasers.

WeBallin
08-06-2010, 05:23 PM
Ok so he put his legacy on the line to win and still he would be a main contributor.penny would be what? Last guy off the bench? He owes cleveland nothing.there's a word for people like you calling him a buster...its called HATER.i bet if he went to your team you would think otherwise.i respect his playing abilit.? Why be a hater for no reason?

Lol no hate from me my boy this PSD is only for entertainment purposes, all i'm sayin that if for one moment you a homer an the team that drafts you is in your state u owe alot more then jus an average Joe who gets selected, but you HEAT fans an that seems to be what you are or LB boyfriend, its gonna take him time in MIA too, so jus cause he left for what it seems greener pasture he'll realize that he could have played with his friends on the weekend durrin pickup games

Da Knicks
08-06-2010, 05:27 PM
it means quitting on your hometown and fans to go do it the easy way and let two other guys do the work....LAZINESS

I feel sorry for all the fan base in Cleveland but, when most kids get out of high school the dream is to go to college far away and see the world. Lebron never got to do that, in fact he stayed home and worked for seven years. Made an all-star out of Mo Williams, got an over the hill shaq and got Anderson Varejao a huge contract. I dont think the cavs knew what they had and surrounded him with average players. It was not the cavs fault completely Cleveland is just not an area that people like to live in. Free agents will never be thrilled about going to cleveland. Now if Lebron had being drafted by a big market would he leave? imo NO, people would join his team.;)

junion
08-06-2010, 05:31 PM
some organizations want rings not just to win championships, but because it would lead to their organization and city getting more revenue from its growing popularity, etc.

Kashmir13579
08-06-2010, 05:33 PM
i believe durant will turn out to be faithful to his team.

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 05:34 PM
i believe durant will turn out to be faithful to his team.

what if they can't get over the hump and win a ring during this next contract he just signed?

WeBallin
08-06-2010, 05:34 PM
Well if there are so many ring chaser in the league if FA's truly believed that cleveand an LBJ was gonna win a chip agents would have came anywhere besides guys jus cause you play for a team you don't have to reside there for the rest of your life.....or is that in the contract????? All i'm sayin if LBJ is Mega star u have folks come play with you not the other way around

mikealike305
08-06-2010, 05:34 PM
I think it's so stupid when people use the phrase ring chasers in a negitive way, the way I see it is there is 2 people in sports, ring chasers and paper chasers, and I would much rather I guy on my team trying to chase a ring than a guy just trying to get money

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 05:35 PM
Well if there are so many ring chaser in the league if FA's truly believed that cleveand an LBJ was gonna win a chip agents would have came anywhere besides guys jus cause you play for a team you don't have to reside there for the rest of your life.....or is that in the contract????? All i'm sayin if LBJ is Mega star u have folks come play with you not the other way around

NBA Salary Cap. Look it up

Htownballa1622
08-06-2010, 05:36 PM
Lol no hate from me my boy this PSD is only for entertainment purposes, all i'm sayin that if for one moment you a homer an the team that drafts you is in your state u owe alot more then jus an average Joe who gets selected, but you HEAT fans an that seems to be what you are or LB boyfriend, its gonna take him time in MIA too, so jus cause he left for what it seems greener pasture he'll realize that he could have played with his friends on the weekend durrin pickup games

You know I can think of a million different ways to come back at you and put down your ideas but I won't.fact is.lebron isa great player and I respect his playing ability.same with kobe.i just don't hate on their personal decision of what they do. Maybe they are ring chasers but is that bad? That these players are dedicated to winning?imo.no its not. Thats just my opinion over this situation.and to correct you.I'm a rockets fan and don't rely on homo jokes to insult someones opinion little "boy"

Htownballa1622
08-06-2010, 05:39 PM
NBA Salary Cap. Look it up

I 100% agree

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 05:40 PM
Is a ring chaser a term with negative intentions? Or is it simply a descriptive word for a player who knows his team doesn't have the ability to get him a ring, and he makes a decision to go somewhere he possibly can?

Avenged
08-06-2010, 05:43 PM
Well if there are so many ring chaser in the league if FA's truly believed that cleveand an LBJ was gonna win a chip agents would have came anywhere besides guys jus cause you play for a team you don't have to reside there for the rest of your life.....or is that in the contract????? All i'm sayin if LBJ is Mega star u have folks come play with you not the other way around

You don't have to play for the team who drafts you for the rest of your career, absolutely not, but that's when not being loyal kicks in depending on the circumstances.

A player like Lebron shouldn't be at fault for leaving Cleveland. He remained loyal for them for 7 years even going as far as recruiting players to play with him. I agree that a superstar shouldn't have to join another superstar to win, but again it's not necessarily a bad thing. The game is played to win, it's pretty basic and simple. I mean, yes Lebron left Cleveland to play with someone else but ultimately the Heat will belong to Lebron because he's the superior player.

WeBallin
08-06-2010, 05:45 PM
You know I can think of a million different ways to come back at you and put down your ideas but I won't.fact is.lebron isa great player and I respect his playing ability.same with kobe.i just don't hate on their personal decision of what they do. Maybe they are ring chasers but is that bad? That these players are dedicated to winning?imo.no its not. Thats just my opinion over this situation.and to correct you.I'm a rockets fan and don't rely on homo jokes to insult someones opinion little "boy"

but you rely on callin me a lil boy Via internet not knowin if i'm older then you or not, lol ok an i'm glad you 100% agree on me lookin up salary cap cause i won't be doin that any time soon its really not that serious at all, an bottom line you defendin your stacne on it an i'm defendin mines, but still at the end of the day I REALLY AN TRULY DON"T GIVE A FONT!!!!!!!!.....U guys have a good one!

mikealike305
08-06-2010, 05:48 PM
Is a ring chaser a term with negative intentions? Or is it simply a descriptive word for a player who knows his team doesn't have the ability to get him a ring, and he makes a decision to go somewhere he possibly can?

Depends who u ask, I call lebron a ring chaser in a positive light, some people call him a ring chaser in a negitive light saying being a ring chaser is a sell out
I personlly see a ring chaser in a positive way

WeBallin
08-06-2010, 05:49 PM
Lebron because he's the superior player.[/QUOTE]

LBJ is a superior player one that had to uproot his family to go an try to win a chip, an he is a superior player in the regular season i'll give you that but they not handin out chips after the regular season they hand them out after the playoffs.....

Htownballa1622
08-06-2010, 05:49 PM
but you rely on callin me a lil boy Via internet not knowin if i'm older then you or not, lol ok an i'm glad you 100% agree on me lookin up salary cap cause i won't be doin that any time soon its really not that serious at all, an bottom line you defendin your stacne on it an i'm defendin mines, but still at the end of the day I REALLY AN TRULY DON"T GIVE A FONT!!!!!!!!.....U guys have a good one!

Lol.if you say so.no need to get offended:cry:;)

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 05:51 PM
Lebron because he's the superior player.

LBJ is a superior player one that had to uproot his family to go an try to win a chip, an he is a superior player in the regular season i'll give you that but they not handin out chips after the regular season they hand them out after the playoffs.....[/QUOTE]

LeBron's playoffs numbers rank him with the all time greats

VinceCarter
08-06-2010, 05:57 PM
Loyals: Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, Pierce
Non Loyals: Shaq, Lebron, Bosh

Kobe is a tweener at best. He demanded a trade when the Lakers were just "floating" not really doing much.

Avenged
08-06-2010, 05:58 PM
LBJ is a superior player one that had to uproot his family to go an try to win a chip, an he is a superior player in the regular season i'll give you that but they not handin out chips after the regular season they hand them out after the playoffs.....

Which would pretty much fall in the hands on his teammates not Lebron.

I really don't want to defend Lebron, I dislike the guy, but seriously, he did all he could to win while putting up an impressive stat line. Him not winning it all doesn't make him any less of a player, or un-loyal, it pretty much falls in the hands of his teammates. I do think Lebron is lacking something "mentally" for now to get to that next level in the playoffs, something that Duncan and Kobe have mastered, but again it doesn't change the fact that he's a great player.

papisupremo
08-06-2010, 05:59 PM
first off, great thread! this is definitely something that needs some debate. here's my two cents. "ring chaser" i think is defined as a player who purposely goes to an already established situation with overwhelming odds to win a chip, such as lebron. this demonstrates a lack of competitiveness and it turns people off because of a high chance of reward with very low investment. this is great with money, but not sports.

elway's super bowls were sweet because of the work he put in and all the times he came so close. black belts are sweet because you have to train for years and work hard and eventually you get rewarded. this investment of hard work and perseverance, this sweat equity is what fans like me respect. its the reason i root for a guy like steve nash who has done everything BUT win a chip.

just because you beat madden on rookie, doesnt mean you're the best! he was already on a championship-caliber team, but the weight of carrying them was too much for him. it wasnt too much for jordan, kobe, magic, or bird. shying away from that challenge is what makes him hated. because really, who respects a coward??

and btw, dwade is a pimp in my book for manipulating the ***** in lbj in his favor. and i mean pimp in the best possible way.

VinceCarter
08-06-2010, 06:01 PM
LBJ is a superior player one that had to uproot his family to go an try to win a chip, an he is a superior player in the regular season i'll give you that but they not handin out chips after the regular season they hand them out after the playoffs.....

LeBron's playoffs numbers rank him with the all time greats[/QUOTE]

but you never know when he'll just quit on you and not give it his all.

mikealike305
08-06-2010, 06:04 PM
first off, great thread! this is definitely something that needs some debate. here's my two cents. "ring chaser" i think is defined as a player who purposely goes to an already established situation with overwhelming odds to win a chip, such as lebron. this demonstrates a lack of competitiveness and it turns people off because of a high chance of reward with very low investment. this is great with money, but not sports.

elway's super bowls were sweet because of the work he put in and all the times he came so close. black belts are sweet because you have to train for years and work hard and eventually you get rewarded. this investment of hard work and perseverance, this sweat equity is what fans like me respect. its the reason i root for a guy like steve nash who has done everything BUT win a chip.

just because you beat madden on rookie, doesnt mean you're the best! he was already on a championship-caliber team, but the weight of carrying them was too much for him. it wasnt too much for jordan, kobe, magic, or bird. shying away from that challenge is what makes him hated. because really, who respects a coward??

and btw, dwade is a pimp in my book for manipulating the ***** in lbj in his favor. and i mean pimp in the best possible way.

how does lebron coming to miami show a lack of competitivness? he did it to COMPETE with the lakers.
and so invesment? he didnt lose all his fans and became the most hated man in sports? to me that an invesment, not including all the hard work he already put in to get to the level he is at now, u make it seem he just got lucky and ended up in this team

Master Mind
08-06-2010, 06:09 PM
Loyals: Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, Pierce
Non Loyals: Shaq, Lebron, Bosh

You must have forgot when Kobe held the Lakers hostage.

Hurricane H
08-06-2010, 06:16 PM
I will follow your statement with this- I agree entirely. And I don't think a player should be judged for leaving a team to pursue a ring. I also don't think a player who walked into a perfect winning situation deserves a single kudos for staying. Why would they leave a team that delivered them millions of dollars, awards, and championships? They do not deserve to be called loyal or given credit for anything other than being a fantastic player for a great organization. There are only so many teams that are run well enough to compete year in and year out for a number of years. If you are not on one of these organizations, your chance of winning slides.
I have never heard anyone criticizing Robert Horry.

I think Horry was just lucky. He won with Houston and I believe he was traded to the Suns and then the Lakers. Then signed as a free agent with the Spurs. He signed with the Spurs because if I'm not mistaken his kids or family lives in TX. So no one can really say he was a ring chaser.

Hurricane H
08-06-2010, 06:16 PM
You must have forgot when Kobe held the Lakers hostage.

Refresh my memory. How did he do that?

Tony_Starks
08-06-2010, 06:21 PM
Big ups to Hawk for a thought provoking topic! Being a staunch David Kahn advocate, I would've never expected it from you my good fellow!!! kidding, kidding.....


But to brass tacks I look at Shaq as the walking definition of a ring chaser. A ring chaser IMO is someone that chooses a team that he thinks will probably win a ring WITH OR WITHOUT HIM. The with or w/o part to me is a really big line of distinction. That seperates guys like Lebron, for example, who are going to a team with intentions of winning BUT as a major contributor. Or even a Robert Horry who could put a already solid team like the Spurs over the top with his clutch playoff performances.

So to me it really boils down to what they're expected to contribute. Look at Ron Artest for example who people wrote off as a "ring chaser" before the season started and ended up being a major hero because of his contribution to the team. W/o him they don't get the ring....

Avenged
08-06-2010, 06:23 PM
I think Horry was just lucky. He won with Houston and I believe he was traded to the Suns and then the Lakers. Then signed as a free agent with the Spurs. He signed with the Spurs because if I'm not mistaken his kids or family lives in TX. So no one can really say he was a ring chaser.

Pretty much since he was drafted by Houston and won 2 rings with them.

When he won with the Lakers, he was traded there by the Suns which lead to 3 championships.

And yes he went to Texas for family so it isn't like he was ring chasing.

Now that I think about if, Horry got extremely lucky way too early in his career and luck followed him throughout till the end.

Good catch on that one.

Enemey
08-06-2010, 06:27 PM
So lebron is a ring chaser because he wants to take less to win? In that case...is kobe a ring chaser? He wanted to be traded.lebron did his time and left rightfully.he not once spoke of free agency until time.the only downfall is he handled it wrong.you lakers fan are quick to jump on lebron for anything.fact is...had pau not gone to l.a. kobe would most likely be gone from l.a.....so since when is it bad to wasn't to win.i think a ring chaser would be penny trying to play for heat.

Before this post not one Laker fan said anything about Lebron that was negative. The guy you're quoting is a pistons fan. Lebron fans make it seem like it's Kobe VS Lebron in every thread .

RCarlson85
08-06-2010, 06:27 PM
Kobe is a tweener at best. He demanded a trade when the Lakers were just "floating" not really doing much.

If Kobe had been a free agent at that time he would have left. He didn't have a choice. He tried to demand a trade but that didn't work out. He ended up getting lucky getting Pau and others so now he's happy. I guarantee if Lebron had a team like that he wouldn't have left Cleveland. No one wants to go play in Cleveland, Bosh didn't and neither did Amare.

Lebron was loyal for all the years he played for the Cavs and never demanded a trade. He played out his contract. He even signed a extension that kept him in Cleveland for an extra 3 years. He could have gotten out sooner if he didn't do that. He gave them 7 years to win and in return the Cavs gave him no supporting cast.

John Walls Era
08-06-2010, 06:34 PM
Interesting thread. I always thought of "ringchasers" as guys past their prime (30ish) who want a ring before they call it quits. Gary Payton and McDyess are the first 2 that come to mind.

Jarvo
08-06-2010, 06:41 PM
iMean LBJ Gave The Cavs 7yrs Got A Bunch Of Players, Finished 1st In The East With The Best Record & Still Came Up Short. Hell iWouldve Left Too Smfh Cleveland Cursed Anyway. How Many Chances Can He Give Them?

Boozer iMean Jazz Was Trying To Get Rid Of Him Anyway, Ever Since Last Season.

Bosh He's Just A Follower We All Know This.

VinceCarter
08-06-2010, 06:42 PM
If Kobe had been a free agent at that time he would have left. He didn't have a choice. He tried to demand a trade but that didn't work out. He ended up getting lucky getting Pau and others so now he's happy. I guarantee if Lebron had a team like that he wouldn't have left Cleveland. No one wants to go play in Cleveland, Bosh didn't and neither did Amare.

Lebron was loyal for all the years he played for the Cavs and never demanded a trade. He played out his contract. He even signed a extension that kept him in Cleveland for an extra 3 years. He could have gotten out sooner if he didn't do that. He gave them 7 years to win and in return the Cavs gave him no supporting cast.

I agree but the way he left was completely unprofessional. He held a show on national TV saying he was leaving the Cavs without informing his employer of his departure. The Cavs had to find out via media leaks/The Decision.

Also he quit on the Cavs in the Celtics series I truely believe with him giving it 100% they would've at least made the finals and could've competed for a title.

So with those 2 big things taken into account that's why the "hate" is justified. It doesn't help he made a superteam in the process.

Htownballa1622
08-06-2010, 06:45 PM
Before this post not one Laker fan said anything about Lebron that was negative. The guy you're quoting is a pistons fan. Lebron fans make it seem like it's Kobe VS Lebron in every thread .

He clearly mentioned kobe and Im aware he isn't a lakers fan.I'm not a lebron fan.I'm a ROCKETS fan for the last time.i was talking about LAKER FANS WHO ALWAYS DEFEND KOBE BUT HATE LEBRON.so before you respond w/o knowledge of the situation.get the facts straight and don't just target that post because it said laker fan.you know what laker fans I'm talking about.they're the same type as the heat fans on the other end.

Avenged
08-06-2010, 06:47 PM
Interesting thread. I always thought of "ringchasers" as guys past their prime (30ish) who want a ring before they call it quits. Gary Payton and McDyess are the first 2 that come to mind.

That's who I refer to as ring chasers as well.

Players like Shaq, Malone, Payton, and even Big Z now.

The way I see it, you can take ring chasing in two ways. For me, if a player is young like Lebron, "ring chasing" isn't a negative thing. But when you're older in your career and all your doing is going from team to team for a chance at a ring, that to me is a ring chaser in a "negative" way.

RCarlson85
08-06-2010, 06:52 PM
I agree but the way he left was completely unprofessional. He held a show on national TV saying he was leaving the Cavs without informing his employer of his departure. The Cavs had to find out via media leaks/The Decision.

Also he quit on the Cavs in the Celtics series I truely believe with him giving it 100% they would've at least made the finals and could've competed for a title.

So with those 2 big things taken into account that's why the "hate" is justified. It doesn't help he made a superteam in the process.

No argument here. I wish he would have done it differently. There is no way Cleveland fans would have been happy with him leaving, but the hate could have been lessened by just making the decision and then holding a press conference to explain it or talk about it like everyone else does. I am fine with people being mad with how he did it, I just don't think people hating him just because he decided to go somewhere else is justified.

8kobe24
08-06-2010, 06:52 PM
Like a fellow Laker fan said in here, Shaq is the standard of a true "ring chaser". He wants to hop on a team where he thinks can get a ring with minimum contribution. With lebron, well he just wants to play with his buddies, with the hopes of winning a title. All I can say is lebron gave Cleveland 7 years of his career trying to win a championship, Cleveland surrounded him with good solid players but was unable to get the big chip. He now wants to win a title and he thinks he has a better shot playing alongside dwade and bosh Again, nothing wrong with this as long as he stops calling himself "king".

Enemey
08-06-2010, 06:55 PM
He clearly mentioned kobe and Im aware he isn't a lakers fan.I'm not a lebron fan.I'm a ROCKETS fan for the last time.i was talking about LAKER FANS WHO ALWAYS DEFEND KOBE BUT HATE LEBRON.so before you respond w/o knowledge of the situation.get the facts straight and don't just target that post because it said laker fan.you know what laker fans I'm talking about.they're the same type as the heat fans on the other end.

Again before that post not one Lakers fan said anything negative about Lebron so why even mention it? You're defending Lebron by trying to put down Kobe. Kobe and Lebron situation are completely different .

LTS
08-06-2010, 07:00 PM
heres to guys on the same team and one became a ring chaser
Stockton
Malone (chaser)

Other ring chasers include (horry, Payton) alot of sixth men or defense specialist seem to change teams wiht who they belive will have a chance to win the next year

I don't belive its a abd thing either if your not a star but your good go to a team were you will be more likely to have success.

Htownballa1622
08-06-2010, 07:01 PM
Again before that post not one Lakers fan said anything negative about Lebron so why even mention it? You're defending Lebron by trying to put down Kobe. Kobe and Lebron situation are completely different .

I'm not putting anyone down.you're obviously confused.i said that its people like him and the lakers fans (the hating ones) that want to say something negative about lebron.i made a comparison about kobe and lebron.it could have been kg and lebron and how they're similar but no I made a kobe comparison which I can't do because he's untouchable.you go ahead and defend kobe.I'm donewriting you back because you'll defend kobe to your death.

BUCK WILD!!
08-06-2010, 07:12 PM
I hope all players are ring chasers, this means they want to win championships. If not a chaser means you playing for only the money. And if this is THE case, we have another issue and then another hatin --- topic.

By the way you can not get mad at players who just want TO win. Just like your co-worker can not get mad if you want be in the best position on job to reach success. Besides the team owners do not care when a player is traded or cut from the team where he has strong ties with city.

So everybody is mad at players like LEBRON AND BOSH. SO WHAT!! They out smarted the system. Unlike your great stars from the past. They stayed on one team forever. They was not smart enough to change things up if they are not working. However, the owners are sure not scared to do it.

These players just listened to the encouraging words of an organization for years "Its just a business" when they got unfortunately traded. Therefore, when these star players realized that they have some power too. They went the lab and made it happen and now THEY CAN tell the owners the same thing they were told for years "ITS JUST A BUSINESS".

SO EVERYBODY StOP HATIN ON LEBRON, BOSH and others, they are smart not just ring chasrs. Just tell your team get their money up to make big moves or tell your players to stay out of the club and stay in the gym!!

The BUCKS are the home team. The CELTICS have the MENTAL!! And WADE IS THE BEST NOTTTTT kobe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way tredigs, you got handles!! YOU BE ON POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Enemey
08-06-2010, 07:16 PM
I'm not putting anyone down.you're obviously confused.i said that its people like him and the lakers fans (the hating ones) that want to say something negative about lebron.i made a comparison about kobe and lebron.it could have been kg and lebron and how they're similar but no I made a kobe comparison which I can't do because he's untouchable.you go ahead and defend kobe.I'm donewriting you back because you'll defend kobe to your death.

I just don't see the comparison at all with how they handled the situation. You can compare the situation with Dwyane Wade because he said in 2009 he wants Miami to be a contender or hes gone in the free agency but with Lebron I don't see it.

I just want you to explain this to me . Lebron is loyal because he spent his first 7 years in Cleavland until he was a free agent and left a team that had the best record in the NBA for two years, But Kobe is not loyal because he spent 14 years in LA and he was a free agent in 2004 and still signed back with them knowing they were going to rebuild around him. Theres no he coulda woulda shoulda things or he say or she say stuff.

You can say he demanded a trade and yeah he was douche for that but when he had the opportunity to leave in free agency in 2004 he still came back despite talking to the Bulls or Clippers.

On topic I dont consider LBJ a ring chase because he is young and has every right to leave to make himself happy but he shouldn't be considered loyal.

Htownballa1622
08-06-2010, 07:23 PM
I just don't see the comparison at all with how they handled the situation. You can compare the situation with Dwyane Wade because he said in 2009 he wants Miami to be a contender or hes gone in the free agency but with Lebron I don't see it.

I just want you to explain this to me . Lebron is loyal because he spent his first 7 years in Cleavland until he was a free agent and left a team that had the best record in the NBA for two years, But Kobe is not loyal because he spent 14 years in LA and he was a free agent in 2004 and still signed back with them knowing they were going to rebuild around him. Theres no he coulda woulda shoulda things or he say or she say stuff.

You can say he demanded a trade and yeah he was douche for that but when he had the opportunity to leave in free agency in 2004 he still came back despite talking to the Bulls or Clippers.

On topic I dont consider LBJ a ring chase because he is young and has every right to leave to make himself happy but he shouldn't be considered loyal.


Fair enough.YOU are being reasonable.i compared the two because I said kobe or lebron are imo ring chasers.which is not bad. this was a comparison in my point of ring chasers.i don't think anything bad of kobe or lebron.i simply pointed out that lebron gets hated on..especially by laker fans and I can say The same now that kobe gets it from miami fans now..(look up where the guy says wade is better than kobe)

Lakersho
08-06-2010, 07:27 PM
Duncan more so.
While we'll never know how serious Kobe was, he did demand a trade. I can't recall if Pierce ever did, but I don't think so.
...Yes , it was the year before the big three got together . C's won like 20 games it was bad . but ya, he said get me help or trade me . Kobe was alot louder because of who he is and where he plays media got right on it and stayed...

Also, it's highly circumstantial. Should a guy like Kobe Bryant or Tim Duncan really be given any more credit than someone like Tracy McGrady or Lebron? The prior two were drafted into the most ideal situations possible; amazing coaches, fantastic ownership and a top 3 big in the league right along their side to help them grow. All things are not equal, and more people need to respect that.



Karl Malone: Top 3 PF ALL TIME
John Stockton: Top 3 PG ALL TIME - Playing under one of the best run organizations in the league - again, is that honestly fair to compare? And AGAIN, why should a player not have the right to choose at least ONCE where they want to play for a change?
...To Answer TRE. They do and should have a say. IT's the way players go about it that upsets the fanbases......TRE , Why Lebron's hated on is mostly all the self hype : CHOSEN ONE , THE KING , Then the way he left . ESPN , and Lebron's pr guy need FIRED, and Lebron needs to grow up alot and use better judgment on his image...The Cavs did get him help . You dont have the best record 2 seasons and get to say they didn't get him any help. Lebron was in on the trades , telling them who he wanted and didn't want. T. Mac isn't in the same league as LBJ, so people dont care as much...

I will follow your statement with this- I agree entirely. And I don't think a player should be judged for leaving a team to pursue a ring. I also don't think a player who walked into a perfect winning situation deserves a single kudos for staying. Why would they leave a team that delivered them millions of dollars, awards, and championships? They do not deserve to be called loyal or given credit for anything other than being a fantastic player for a great organization. There are only so many teams that are run well enough to compete year in and year out for a number of years. If you are not on one of these organizations, your chance of winning slides.
I have never heard anyone criticizing Robert Horry.
...NO hawkeye,No one says anything about Big Rob, I think it's because he just a roll player and not a superstar. Roll players are more considered a hired gun. superstars you build a team or franchise around...

He clearly mentioned kobe and Im aware he isn't a lakers fan.I'm not a lebron fan.I'm a ROCKETS fan for the last time.i was talking about LAKER FANS WHO ALWAYS DEFEND KOBE BUT HATE LEBRON.so before you respond w/o knowledge of the situation.get the facts straight and don't just target that post because it said laker fan.you know what laker fans I'm talking about.they're the same type as the heat fans on the other end.
...There's no reason to defend Kobe, he isn't a ring chaser . But by you throwing the Kobe <lebron comparisons in your post ,your bringing it on yourself...

Sly Guy
08-06-2010, 07:29 PM
should Kobe and Duncan be in the same classification as Pierce for example?

yes.

Even though there was a time kobe was a lil' disgruntled, if we're going by moves alone, then kobe is still in the class with those that are considered 'loyal'

Avenged
08-06-2010, 07:32 PM
heres to guys on the same team and one became a ring chaser
Stockton
Malone (chaser)

Other ring chasers include (horry, Payton) alot of sixth men or defense specialist seem to change teams wiht who they belive will have a chance to win the next year

I don't belive its a abd thing either if your not a star but your good go to a team were you will be more likely to have success.

Horry's situation has already been pointed out.

He was drafted by the Rockets and won 2 championship with them, which isn't ring chasing since he was there since the beginning.

Then when he won 3 straight with the Lakers, he was traded to L.A by the Phoenix Suns. Again, that isn't ring chasing since he was traded.

With the Spurs, he chose to play in Texas because of his family. He wasn't chasing any rings, more like chasing his family.

None of his rings were "chased", he just got extremely lucky from the beginning of his career till the end.

Payton though, is a good example as a ring chaser later in his career.

lakers4sho
08-06-2010, 07:32 PM
That's who I refer to as ring chasers as well.

Players like Shaq, Malone, Payton, and even Big Z now.

The way I see it, you can take ring chasing in two ways. For me, if a player is young like Lebron, "ring chasing" isn't a negative thing. But when you're older in your career and all your doing is going from team to team for a chance at a ring, that to me is a ring chaser in a "negative" way.

I disagree.

To me, when a player is young, he should try his best to win as the main man, because that is how legacies are built and cemented. "Ringchasing" should be nowhere in his dictionary.

However, when a player is clearly past his prime and can't be the go-to-guy anymore, he is free to join whatever team he pleases for a chance at a ring. He is only a role player at this point.

ManRam
08-06-2010, 07:33 PM
I know that in my profession I'd leave my job in a heartbeat in order to go somewhere where I can become more successful and my career can grow the most. The NBA is their job. They all sacrificed a little bit (a lot actually, just look at how LeBron's reputation has slid) in order to win, play with people they want to play with, and in order for their careers to thrive.

I'm not going to sit here and criticize any of them. Ring chasing is fine in my books. If they want to do it, so be it. I'm sure most of the people here would do the same.

Enemey
08-06-2010, 07:37 PM
Fair enough.YOU are being reasonable.i compared the two because I said kobe or lebron are imo ring chasers.which is not bad. this was a comparison in my point of ring chasers.i don't think anything bad of kobe or lebron.i simply pointed out that lebron gets hated on..especially by laker fans and I can say The same now that kobe gets it from miami fans now..(look up where the guy says wade is better than kobe)

I can agree that its not bad to be a ringchaser.

TO the guy above you Lebron and Kobe are the top 2 players in the League Wade is behind them by not much.

Htownballa1622
08-06-2010, 07:39 PM
I can agree that its not bad. Lebron and Kobe are the top 2 players in the League Wade is behind them by not much.

Agreed:clap:

And yao is fourth....:)

Jk..i wish Yao was :/

mikealike305
08-06-2010, 07:39 PM
I think it's so stupid when people use the phrase ring chasers in a negitive way, the way I see it is there is 2 people in sports, ring chasers and paper chasers, and I would much rather I guy on my team trying to chase a ring than a guy just trying to get money

Lakersho
08-06-2010, 07:42 PM
I'm not putting anyone down.you're obviously confused.i said that its people like him and the lakers fans (the hating ones) that want to say something negative about lebron.i made a comparison about kobe and lebron.it could have been kg and lebron and how they're similar but no I made a kobe comparison which I can't do because he's untouchable.you go ahead and defend kobe.I'm donewriting you back because you'll defend kobe to your death.

...Hey Htown, My post above this wasn't meant that your startin trouble or what ever. Some of the younger Laker posters do go off as you said. What i wrote wasn't hate toward you , just advice , nothing more... Peace out and carry on...

Avenged
08-06-2010, 07:43 PM
I disagree.

To me, when a player is young, he should try his best to win as the main man, because that is how legacies are built and cemented. "Ringchasing" should be nowhere in his dictionary.

However, when a player is clearly past his prime and can't be the go-to-guy anymore, he is free to join whatever team he pleases for a chance at a ring. He is only a role player at this point.

I don't disagree with that. A superstar should be able to go out there and do it all on his own without another superstar. He shouldn't have to resort to joining up with any other elite player. But, this stuff does happen and when it does, I don't think it's a bad thing. Players just want to win, they play to win, plain and simple.

If a young player goes to play with someone else, then good for him. That just means he's about winning. It would probably take a hit on his legacy a bit for not winning it on his own, but you can't fault a player for going to a team trying to win.

Htownballa1622
08-06-2010, 07:46 PM
...Hey Htown, My post above this wasn't meant that your startin trouble or what ever. Some of the younger Laker posters do go off as you said. What i wrote wasn't hate toward you , just advice , nothing more... Peace out and carry on...

:) thanks...i didn't take it bad.i got what you said.made sense.i love basketball and I fdon't hate them based of what they decide. My point was just taking out of context I feel but I appreciate what you said.no trouble at all.

Mattb7
08-06-2010, 07:50 PM
Toronto did make the moves to surround Bosh with talent. In the end it is clear that Chris Bosh is definitely not a franchise player but rather a very solid role player. Wade brought his team to the playoffs and Toronto was more talented then Miami was last year.

lakers4sho
08-06-2010, 07:53 PM
I don't disagree with that. A superstar should be able to go out there and do it all on his own without another superstar. He shouldn't have to resort to joining up with any other elite player. But, this stuff does happen and when it does, I don't think it's a bad thing. Players just want to win, they play to win, plain and simple.

If a young player goes to play with someone else, then good for him. That just means he's about winning. It would probably take a hit on his legacy a bit for not winning it on his own, but you can't fault a player for going to a team trying to win.

Of course.

I was just assuming that a player of LeBron's caliber would want to be in that upper echelon of elites. And that's not going to happen after what just transpired.

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 07:56 PM
yes.

Even though there was a time kobe was a lil' disgruntled, if we're going by moves alone, then kobe is still in the class with those that are considered 'loyal'

but we know Pierce wasted his prime with no ring, and got it due to patience. Would Kobe and Tim have done the same? I honestly doubt it

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 07:57 PM
I know that in my profession I'd leave my job in a heartbeat in order to go somewhere where I can become more successful and my career can grow the most. The NBA is their job. They all sacrificed a little bit (a lot actually, just look at how LeBron's reputation has slid) in order to win, play with people they want to play with, and in order for their careers to thrive.

I'm not going to sit here and criticize any of them. Ring chasing is fine in my books. If they want to do it, so be it. I'm sure most of the people here would do the same.

that is the point of this thread. Not only to identify different types of ringchasers, but to argue, "is it really a negative thing to be one?"

VinceCarter
08-06-2010, 07:59 PM
I think it's so stupid when people use the phrase ring chasers in a negitive way, the way I see it is there is 2 people in sports, ring chasers and paper chasers, and I would much rather I guy on my team trying to chase a ring than a guy just trying to get money

ahhhh but it's not that simple. There is also a third party of players who are called "loyal"....real hated bunch :rolleyes:

mark1125
08-06-2010, 07:59 PM
Bottom line is that we are in no position to judge what drives a person to play in any particular city.

Some chase rings
Some chase money
Some chase playing time
Some want to play in their hometown
Some want to stay with team that they had most success with.
Some want to play with a certian coach
etc
etc

There is no reason that is more "honorable" than another IMO.

Jarvo
08-06-2010, 08:02 PM
Isnt It EVERY Player Dream Is To Win A Ring Anyway??? By Any Means When You Get Into The NBA? I'm Just Saying, Especially If Your A Vet That Did EVERYTHING You Can Do In Your Career But Win Atleast One Ring. I Don't Blame Them People Just Too Damn Sensitive These Days.

CowboysKB24
08-06-2010, 08:04 PM
LeBron James is really a perfect example of a ringchaser. Cleveland did everything and anything LBJ wanted. They got any talent he wanted or at least tried the best they could. They gave him special, ridiculous priviledges like allowing him to bring his friends and family on the team air planes. Cleveland created a team that won the most games in the regular season back to back years and gave LBJ two back to back MVPs. What more can the guy ask for? I knew he was leaving when he said he was going to test his options. Guys that are loyal state that they are staying. It is not the Cavs fault that LBJ could not get it done in the playoff and could not get his teammates ready either.

mikealike305
08-06-2010, 08:05 PM
ahhhh but it's not that simple. There is also a third party of players who are called "loyal"....real hated bunch :rolleyes:

haha thats harder to judge IMO. how can we really tell how loyal players are? i mean some we can but others idk, for example, if the spurs never won or were even good would tim still be there? idk, do u?

mikealike305
08-06-2010, 08:06 PM
LeBron James is really a perfect example of a ringchaser. Cleveland did everything and anything LBJ wanted. They got any talent he wanted or at least tried the best they could. They gave him special, ridiculous priviledges like allowing him to bring his friends and family on the team air planes. Cleveland created a team that won the most games in the regular season back to back years and gave LBJ two back to back MVPs. What more can the guy ask for? I knew he was leaving when he said he was going to test his options. Guys that are loyal state that they are staying. It is not the Cavs fault that LBJ could not get it done in the playoff and could not get his teammates ready either.

what more could he have asked for? a ring

CowboysKB24
08-06-2010, 08:06 PM
Duncan more so.
While we'll never know how serious Kobe was, he did demand a trade. I can't recall if Pierce ever did, but I don't think so.

Kobe wanted to and gave the Lakers three years to get a team together after Shaq left. The Lakers did nothing. Lakers were a consistent 6-8 seed and a first round loss team. When he did start to complain and demand a trade, things started to happen. You can't blame him when you feel like you front office isn't getting things done. It worked out though. His scenario is nothing like other ring chasers. He didn't call anyone up to be on his team.

Avenged
08-06-2010, 08:07 PM
but we know Pierce wasted his prime with no ring, and got it due to patience. Would Kobe and Tim have done the same? I honestly doubt it

Perhaps not, but you can speculate all you want and we will never know the true answer. What we do know is that both these players have played with only 1 professional team their whole careers.

CowboysKB24
08-06-2010, 08:09 PM
what more could he have asked for? a ring

When you create a team that wins the most games back to back years, don't think you have done your job? LBJ flopped in the playoffs. He can't handle big games and the pressure. You are making LBJ look bad. He is a ring chaser. He had a great situation in CLE, but left because it was not a 100 percent that he was going to win. He could not handle that. He needed the security. He hated the fact that he could do everything, but handle the pressure of the playoffs and win. There is no excuse for not getting to the finals at least once when you are the best team for two years straight. LBJ then took it so far that he called up the other two best players in the league to play with him. He now has Wade to handle his pressure problems. Wade will make and take all the big shots.

Tell LBJ to keep making his dance videos and skits before games. It is working. Great maturity. It relates to his lack of leadership, charisma, and clutchness. We all now know the real LBJ. He is a p*$$y. He is a scared.

lakers4sho
08-06-2010, 08:10 PM
Paul Pierce has finally told team management that unless the Celtics come out of this week with a talented veteran co-star for him, they should expect him to make a public declaration soon after Thursday's draft that he wants a trade.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-pierce062507

Pierce and Kobe were on the same boat during the summer of 2007. Pierce isn't more "loyal" by any stretch.

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 08:11 PM
Perhaps not, but you can speculate all you want and we will never know the true answer. What we do know is that both these players have played with only 1 professional team their whole careers.

no doubt. But would you leave a situation like LAL, or San Antonio?
I guess the answer is yes (Shaq)

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 08:11 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-pierce062507

Pierce and Kobe were on the same boat during the summer of 2007. Pierce isn't more "loyal" by any stretch.

but Kobe was up 3-0 in rings. Pierce's frustration was more justified because of this, imho.

mikealike305
08-06-2010, 08:15 PM
When you create a team that wins the most games back to back years, don't think you have done your job? LBJ flopped in the playoffs. He can't handle big games and the pressure. You are making LBJ look bad. He is a ring chaser. He had a great situation in CLE, but left because it was not a 100 percent that he was going to win. He could not handle that. He needed the security. He hated the fact that he could do everything, but handle the pressure of the playoffs and win. There is no excuse for not getting to the finals at least once when you are the best team for two years straight. LBJ then took it so far that he called up the other two best players in the league to play with him. He now has Wade to handle his pressure problems. Wade will make and take all the big shots.

Tell LBJ to keep making his dance videos and skits before games. It is working. Great maturity. It relates to his lack of leadership, charisma, and clutchness. We all now know the real LBJ. He is a p*$$y. He is a scared.

he's a pu**y cuz he wants to win and create a great team?
so let me ask u, what would u have done if u were lebron? stay with the cavs and risk never winning?

Avenged
08-06-2010, 08:19 PM
no doubt. But would you leave a situation like LAL, or San Antonio?
I guess the answer is yes (Shaq)

When Kobe demanded a trade, it was because of the lack of talent the Lakers surrounded him with. I understand why Kobe would want to leave the Lakers a couple of years ago, I would have wanted the same thing. I mean, I'm sure players aren't too happy wasting their prime on mediocre teams.

A poster contrasted Lebron's and Kobe's situation, and I actually think the opposite. Lebron left Cleveland because of the lack of teammates they provided. Yes, they did give Lebron "good" teammates but they didn't give him enough to get over the hump.

Same situation with Kobe, the Lakers didn't provide the teammates to win it all until they decided to trade for Gasol. The thing is, Lebron never got his all-star player which resulted in him leaving.

Kobe got his all-star which resulted in him staying.

[[I didn't want to post the Lebron and Kobe scenario in your quote since that's now what you asked but I'm too lazy to quote someone else]] :p

Htownballa1622
08-06-2010, 08:25 PM
When you create a team that wins the most games back to back years, don't think you have done your job? LBJ flopped in the playoffs. He can't handle big games and the pressure. You are making LBJ look bad. He is a ring chaser. He had a great situation in CLE, but left because it was not a 100 percent that he was going to win. He could not handle that. He needed the security. He hated the fact that he could do everything, but handle the pressure of the playoffs and win. There is no excuse for not getting to the finals at least once when you are the best team for two years straight. LBJ then took it so far that he called up the other two best players in the league to play with him. He now has Wade to handle his pressure problems. Wade will make and take all the big shots.

Tell LBJ to keep making his dance videos and skits before games. It is working. Great maturity. It relates to his lack of leadership, charisma, and clutchness. We all now know the real LBJ. He is a p*$$y. He is a scared.

:facepalm: that last paragraph...lol

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 08:25 PM
When Kobe demanded a trade, it was because of the lack of talent the Lakers surrounded him with. I understand why Kobe would want to leave the Lakers a couple of years ago, I would have wanted the same thing. I mean, I'm sure players aren't too happy wasting their prime on mediocre teams.

A poster contrasted Lebron's and Kobe's situation, and I actually think the opposite. Lebron left Cleveland because of the lack of teammates they provided. Yes, they did give Lebron "good" teammates but they didn't give him enough to get over the hump.

Same situation with Kobe, the Lakers didn't provide the teammates to win it all until they decided to trade for Gasol. The thing is, Lebron never got his all-star player which resulted in him leaving.

Kobe got his all-star which resulted in him staying.

[[I didn't want to post the Lebron and Kobe scenario in your quote since that's now what you asked but I'm too lazy to quote someone else]] :p


let me rephrase it. With 3 rings already in the bag, shouldn't Kobe be more "loyal" to a franchise that did indeed surround him with talent, and has a historical ability to form championship teams?
Just trying to stem conversation. Not trying to do a LJ vs KB here

lakers4sho
08-06-2010, 08:28 PM
but Kobe was up 3-0 in rings. Pierce's frustration was more justified because of this, imho.

True. I was just pointing out the fact that putting him in the same level of "loyalty" as Duncan is a bit of an inaccuracy IMO.

Hawkeye15
08-06-2010, 08:30 PM
True. I was just pointing out the fact that putting him in the same level of "loyalty" as Duncan is a bit of an inaccuracy IMO.

fair enough

Avenged
08-06-2010, 08:35 PM
let me rephrase it. With 3 rings already in the bag, shouldn't Kobe be more "loyal" to a franchise that did indeed surround him with talent, and has a historical ability to form championship teams?
Just trying to stem conversation. Not trying to do a LJ vs KB here

In my opinion, he "shouldn't" have to do anything. He really doesn't owe the Lakers anything since he was a major major part of the Lakers success during the 3-peat years.

I mean, your question is basically implying Kobe isn't loyal when in fact he's only played with 1 professional team his whole career.

If Kobe would have left, then yes, he would be considered and unloyal selfish player. (even more so than he already is)

I said earlier in this thread that there's some sort of separation in class concerning the loyal players. That being, the "high class" which include Dirk, Pierce, Duncan etc.. And the "middle class" of loyalty which include Kobe, KG, Malone, and Jordan.

Pierce is perhaps more loyal than Kobe but it doesn't mean Kobe isn't loyal because Pierce is a step ahead of him in terms of loyalty.

lakers4sho
08-06-2010, 08:39 PM
Forgive my poor memory if so, but didn't Kobe retract his trade demand after a day or two?

So you can't really say he stayed "because the Lakers got Pau Gasol".

cle12152433
08-06-2010, 08:43 PM
I dont give a damn if Kobe demanded a trade or not, he won 3 rings before that garbage....and at the end of the day he stayed. Didnt he sign an extension last year too?

That more the Judas or Bosh can say....

Avenged
08-06-2010, 08:44 PM
Forgive my poor memory if so, but didn't Kobe retract his trade demand after a day or two?

So you can't really say he stayed "because the Lakers got Pau Gasol".

Yes, but that was only because Deng was included in the deal and Kobe didn't want to go to Chicago if Deng wasn't there. He wanted to go to a team that could win the title, not leave the Lakers for another team in the same situation.

We can speculate, which pretty much is what this thread has become whether or not Kobe would have left if Gasol came to L.A or not. If Kobe had been a F.A at the time of the trading drama he created, he would have probably signed with another team.

Enemey
08-06-2010, 08:53 PM
Yes, but that was only because Deng was included in the deal and Kobe didn't want to go to Chicago if Deng wasn't there. He wanted to go to a team that could win the title, not leave the Lakers for another team in the same situation.

We can speculate, which pretty much is what this thread has become whether or not Kobe would have left if Gasol came to L.A or not. If Kobe had been a F.A at the time of the trading drama he created, he would have probably signed with another team.

Kobe felt the Lakers weren't even trying to put players around him to win. In Kobes eyes he felt the Lakers lied to him about saying that they were going to rebuild around him and be a title contender all he ever wanted was to be surrounded by good role players. How bout when Kobe was a free agent in 2004 he could have signed with the bulls or the clippers but he still came back KNOWING Lakers were going to rebuild around him. Where as he could have went to the Chicago Bulls who had already good players to surround Kobe.

JasonJohnHorn
08-06-2010, 08:57 PM
There are different kinds of ring chasers. There are guys like Mitch Richmond and Karl Malone, who play for years for one team that is loyal to them, and then after a while, when things are clearly not going to lead to a title, the want to make one last run and jump to a team like LA, even though their respective teams still want them.

Then there are guys who get bounced around. Payton got dumped by Seattle. McDysse got dumped by a couple teams. Juan Howard has been a journeyman most of his career, so when players like these choose to sign with a contender, I'm more understanding.

As for the Bosh and LBJ. They are unique situations. Bosh gave TO a chance. If he didnt want to be there, he could have left years ago. He could have signed a one year contract after his rookie contract expired and then bolted, but he gave the team a few years and they did nothing but make bad moves. LBJ on the other hand, had a winning team and a management team that bent over backwards for him, and when the playoffs rolled around, they just werent good enough to win. But LBJ's ties with Cleveland were much different than Bosh's ties with TO. I understand Bosh leaving, but with LBJ there was a chance for him to do something special, and he passed up on that for easy win on a stacked team. That his perogative, and he has a right to play where he wants, but when getting a ring is more important to a player than earning a ring, that diminishes how I see the player.

Stockton never won a title. Neither did Reggie Miller, but everybody knows how great those two players are and there is no question that they are HOFers. Its about the effort you put in, not about how many rings you get along the way. Karl Malone, McDysse, Larry Nance, Brad Doraughty, Mark Price, Rik Smitts these are all some great players who have never won a title, and yeah, Nance remains underrated to this day and had he won a title more people would remember him, but I think in the minds of true basketball fans, players like these are still great even though they didnt win it all.

Winning is as much about situation and chance as it is about effort. Players who put out the effort will be respected.

PrettyBoyJ
08-06-2010, 09:07 PM
Loyalty is one thing but @ the end of the day this is a business

shep33
08-06-2010, 09:11 PM
If you look up ring-chaser in the dictionary... there is a picture of Shaq

cle12152433
08-06-2010, 09:12 PM
If you look up ring-chaser in the dictionary... there is a picture of Shaq

and two pictures of LeBron

Avenged
08-06-2010, 09:27 PM
Kobe felt the Lakers weren't even trying to put players around him to win. In Kobes eyes he felt the Lakers lied to him about saying that they were going to rebuild around him and be a title contender all he ever wanted was to be surrounded by good role players. How bout when Kobe was a free agent in 2004 he could have signed with the bulls or the clippers but he still came back KNOWING Lakers were going to rebuild around him. Where as he could have went to the Chicago Bulls who had already good players to surround Kobe.

Shaq was traded to the Heat that year only because they had to choose between Shaq or Kobe. The Lakers ended up choosing Kobe Bryant. I mean 2 big ego's clashed that year, Kobe wanted the Lakers to be his team, that's why he signed there. At that time, Kobe was trying to establish himself as a player and get to the level of the elites throughout history. He did just that but yes the Lakers never surrounded him with the players to get over the hump during the "Smush" era.

I mean, Lamar Odom was suppose to be his "Pippen". They waited for Odom to become that player and it never happened.

I'm not questioning his loyalty as I have stated in this thread that he is loyal to the Lakers since he's been with them his whole career. But, you can "assume" he would have left the Lakers had he been a F.A during the time he demanded a trade.

HiphopRelated
08-06-2010, 09:31 PM
LeBron James is really a perfect example of a ringchaser. Cleveland did everything and anything LBJ wanted. They got any talent he wanted or at least tried the best they could. They gave him special, ridiculous priviledges like allowing him to bring his friends and family on the team air planes. Cleveland created a team that won the most games in the regular season back to back years and gave LBJ two back to back MVPs. What more can the guy ask for? I knew he was leaving when he said he was going to test his options. Guys that are loyal state that they are staying. It is not the Cavs fault that LBJ could not get it done in the playoff and could not get his teammates ready either.
They wouldn't give up JJ Hickson for Amare

that's not "everything"

Lebron saw a team he took as far as they were going to go and an improving league.

Wade, Bosh and whatever pieces Riley could have signed or traded for with his capspace would have likely been above Cleveland too.

It was a losing battle.

cle12152433
08-06-2010, 09:36 PM
They wouldn't give up JJ Hickson for Amare



And the Cavs are geniuses too. Who would they have to build around? Amare woulda gone to NY anyway....

CURUKASH
08-06-2010, 09:57 PM
Kobe is a weird situation because he did flirt with the Clippers during his free agency period and was there was also a speculation of him getting a sign and trade to New York because Nike would have doubled his contract yet he stayed with the Lakers... I think Kobe is loyal he is just a baby at times... Kids argue with there parents but still come back...
Now its funny how I have not seen the name Clyde Drexler or Charkes Barkley who both ended up in Houston during the mid 90's AFTER the Rockets already won a championship... BTW I'm a Knicks fan

Enemey
08-06-2010, 09:58 PM
Shaq was traded to the Heat that year only because they had to choose between Shaq or Kobe. The Lakers ended up choosing Kobe Bryant. I mean 2 big ego's clashed that year, Kobe wanted the Lakers to be his team, that's why he signed there. At that time, Kobe was trying to establish himself as a player and get to the level of the elites throughout history. He did just that but yes the Lakers never surrounded him with the players to get over the hump during the "Smush" era.

I mean, Lamar Odom was suppose to be his "Pippen". They waited for Odom to become that player and it never happened.

I'm not questioning his loyalty as I have stated in this thread that he is loyal to the Lakers since he's been with them his whole career. But, you can "assume" he would have left the Lakers had he been a F.A during the time he demanded a trade.

I agree and know what you mean and I don't know how this turned to Kobe out of nowhere, but the fact he wasn't a FA so we never know what would happen maybe the Lakers would have traded Lamar odom, bynum and bring in someone to keep Kobe if it had to go that far if he wsa FA and threaten to leave.

CowboysKB24
08-06-2010, 09:59 PM
They wouldn't give up JJ Hickson for Amare

that's not "everything"

Lebron saw a team he took as far as they were going to go and an improving league.

Wade, Bosh and whatever pieces Riley could have signed or traded for with his capspace would have likely been above Cleveland too.

It was a losing battle.

Yeah you can't go much further than winning the most games during the season two years in a row. Playoff time is about execution and being able to win when it matters. Evidently, the Cavs and LBJ could not get that done. When a team beats playoff teams in the regular season, but then can't get it done in the playoffs... I don't think you blame the front office for that. LBJ takes the blame for being ready to handle it. His teammates were playing better than him in some of the games against the Celtics. LBJ can't take over games like the greats. He can't shoot that well. If he can't get into the lane and dunk or go on fast breaks, his game is limited.

Come on dude, there is no excuse. They didn't even make the finals after winning the most games two years in a row. How disappointing is that? There is no excuse.

Enemey
08-06-2010, 10:08 PM
They wouldn't give up JJ Hickson for Amare

that's not "everything"

Lebron saw a team he took as far as they were going to go and an improving league.

Wade, Bosh and whatever pieces Riley could have signed or traded for with his capspace would have likely been above Cleveland too.

It was a losing battle.

Lakers did the same with Bynum, they didn't trade him for KG, J.O'Neal or J.Kidd. Does that mean they weren't trying their best?

Jaji
08-06-2010, 10:09 PM
:yawn:

This site is getting ridiculous.

Lakersho
08-06-2010, 10:09 PM
:) thanks...i didn't take it bad.i got what you said.made sense.i love basketball and I fdon't hate them based of what they decide. My point was just taking out of context I feel but I appreciate what you said.no trouble at all.
...Good to see , Posters on psd that can get along...:)

In my opinion, he "shouldn't" have to do anything. He really doesn't owe the Lakers anything since he was a major major part of the Lakers success during the 3-peat years.

I mean, your question is basically implying Kobe isn't loyal when in fact he's only played with 1 professional team his whole career.

If Kobe would have left, then yes, he would be considered and unloyal selfish player. (even more so than he already is)

I said earlier in this thread that there's some sort of separation in class concerning the loyal players. That being, the "high class" which include Dirk, Pierce, Duncan etc.. And the "middle class" of loyalty which include Kobe, KG, Malone, and Jordan.

Pierce is perhaps more loyal than Kobe but it doesn't mean Kobe isn't loyal because Pierce is a step ahead of him in terms of loyalty.

...The thing is , They both stayed . Sometimes players have to get in the owners ear, The Lakers were 2yrs. one and done in playoffs. Real fierce competetors wont take it lightly . Pierce threw just as big a fit , Kobe is covered Alot closer and he was a 3 peat champ. So ya you will hear more. But the thing is THEY STAYED !!!!! thats what matters to the fans...

VinceCarter
08-06-2010, 10:14 PM
he's a pu**y cuz he wants to win and create a great team?
so let me ask u, what would u have done if u were lebron? stay with the cavs and risk never winning?

No, because he quit on his team and can't handle leading a team (best record in the league) to a ring.

CURUKASH
08-06-2010, 10:21 PM
Old LA Times article I found

When Kobe Bryant was a free agent in 2004, Mike Dunleavy told Sterling that he had worked out a deal to sign the All-Star from the Lakers.

"I drove from my house in Malibu to the Four Seasons in Newport Beach to meet Kobe and Kobe said I didn't need to say anything because he was going to be a Clipper," Sterling says, a day later learning Bryant had been convinced by Buss to remain with the Lakers.

You can call it what you want but Kobe decided to stay with the Lakers after the 2004 season. That summer Shaq was traded and Rudy T took over the Lakers.

I believe he is loyal he just has temper tantrums...

Avenged
08-07-2010, 02:20 AM
...Good to see , Posters on psd that can get along...:)


...The thing is , They both stayed . Sometimes players have to get in the owners ear, The Lakers were 2yrs. one and done in playoffs. Real fierce competetors wont take it lightly . Pierce threw just as big a fit , Kobe is covered Alot closer and he was a 3 peat champ. So ya you will hear more. But the thing is THEY STAYED !!!!! thats what matters to the fans...

That's what ultimately is my point.

The fact is that Kobe stayed regardless so just by that he should be considered loyal. But then there are other players who never demanded for a trade or played elsewhere whom I feel are a little step beyond in terms of loyalty.

tredigs
08-07-2010, 02:28 AM
That's what ultimately is my point.

The fact is that Kobe stayed regardless so just by that he should be considered loyal. But then there are other players who never demanded for a trade or played elsewhere whom I feel are a little step beyond in terms of loyalty.

You can call him loyal all you want - the bottom line is that they never treaded in those other guys shoes. Think Kobe stays "loyal" if he isn't traded from Charlotte to L.A. on draft night and gets to grow up with the most dominant center of all time?

The answer is, "who knows"? But history isn't on his side. Not everybody's adopted by Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie.

Bottom line is that even with this "super team" that was created in Miami - it's still arguable that the Lakers have a better team. Is that registering with anyone else? 2 of the top 3 players in the league along with another lesser superstar are on the same squad, and it's debatable whether or not they have what it takes to beat the Lakers. And people wonder why guys like Kobe are "loyal"? Give me a ****ing break.

Avenged
08-07-2010, 02:35 AM
You can call him loyal all you want - the bottom line is that they never treaded in those other guys shoes. Think Kobe stays "loyal" if he isn't traded from Charlotte to L.A. on draft night and gets to grow up with the most dominant center of all time?

The answer is, "who knows"? But history isn't on his side. Not everybody's adopted by Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie.

Bottom line is that even with this "super team" that was created in Miami - it's still arguable that the Lakers have a better team. Is that registering with anyone else? 2 of the top 3 players in the league along with another lesser superstar are on the same squad, and it's debatable whether or not they have what it takes to beat the Lakers. And people wonder why guys like Kobe are "loyal"? Give me a ****ing break.

And that's what this thread is all about now, speculating among who would be loyal if they were in different scenarios.

I believe Kobe would have left the Lakers when he demanded a trade a couple years ago had he been a free agent, but he wasn't, which resulted in him staying.

We can all use the "what ifs" for every player but facts are facts. Some players stay with 1 team their whole careers, others leave for another, and some go "ring chasing".

tredigs
08-07-2010, 02:48 AM
And that's what this thread is all about now, speculating among who would be loyal if they were in different scenarios.

I believe Kobe would have left the Lakers when he demanded a trade a couple years ago had he been a free agent, but he wasn't, which resulted in him staying.

We can all use the "what ifs" for every player but facts are facts. Some players stay with 1 team their whole careers, others leave for another, and some go "ring chasing".

I agree entirely - which is why there should be a clear distinction between "loyalty", and staying with your team for your entire career. Which in all fairness would indicate that Kobe is not loyal, he simply stayed with his team for his entire career (so far). Agreed?

SANDBURG23
08-07-2010, 04:10 AM
I find LeBron a joke myself. But how many years should you give a team, is 7 years not enough, does the fact that they made the finals and had best record buy the drafting team more time? That would show ur not that far away. Is Joe Johnson loyal because he sign'd a contract that cripples the team $. Would he have been a title chaser if he sign'd with the Bulls. What's Amare a attention seeker.

TebowForeva
08-07-2010, 04:13 AM
its okay to chase rings when your like 33, then you can run too a so called contender and get one, but when your 25 in your prime you should not be scared to go out there and compete against the best to win your ring straight up

_KB24_
08-07-2010, 04:32 AM
I agree entirely - which is why there should be a clear distinction between "loyalty", and staying with your team for your entire career. Which in all fairness would indicate that Kobe is not loyal, he simply stayed with his team for his entire career (so far). Agreed?

How the hell does that not make him loyal? He could have left in '04 to MUCH better situations in Chicago and the Clippers, but he decided to stay so he could win in LA. He could have acted like a ***** and not report to training camp and not give his 100% back in the summer 0f 07 but he came back and on the FIRST game of the season had a monster night and nearly led his team to victory against one of the West's best in Houston if it were not for stupid defense from Odom on the final possession. He is as loyal as it gets.

JordansBulls
08-07-2010, 07:31 AM
Pierce is loyal to Boston just like KG was loyal to Minny. They dealt him, so that will always be there.
Guys Like Lebron, Bosh, Boozer, are not.

There's really only one type. If someone doesn't complain about wanting to be traded and stays as long as he can, then they're loyal. If they leave for money or to chase success, then they aren't. I don't think that can be debated either.

Boozer isn't a ring chaser, he is a money chaser.

tcav701
08-07-2010, 08:12 AM
This is all irrelevant because the fact of the matter is if someone like James wins 5 rings in MIA it wont mean nearly as much to fans, other players, league officials and LeBron himself than if he won 1 championship in CLE.

Joining a championship team is easy, respect is earned.

mikealike305
08-07-2010, 09:22 AM
This is all irrelevant because the fact of the matter is if someone like James wins 5 rings in MIA it wont mean nearly as much to fans, other players, league officials and LeBron himself than if he won 1 championship in CLE.

Joining a championship team is easy, respect is earned.

and lebron james hasne "earned" respect? i think being drafted number 1 right out of high school and actully living up to they hype, being arguablly the best player in the world at age 25 should earn him atleast a little respect, dont u?

tcav701
08-07-2010, 09:29 AM
and lebron james hasne "earned" respect? i think being drafted number 1 right out of high school and actully living up to they hype, being arguablly the best player in the world at age 25 should earn him atleast a little respect, dont u?

Hey dont get me wrong, I respect him 100% as a basketball player. He is one of the best the league has ever seen. i'm talking about respect as a man.

Clinton was a very good president, gave us our biggest surplus we've ever seen. But he lost people's respect when he grabbed a blow joe from a fat chick.

tcav701
08-07-2010, 09:41 AM
Another thing i cant stand is MIA fans defending what LeBron did simply because he chose south beach. If Wade left MIA in the same fashion, heat fans would be irate saying the SAME things people are saying about James.

It is okay to be happy that LJ joined your team, it makes them an instant championship contender. But to defend what he did and especially how he went about it because he chose your team makes you just as much of a douche.

MTar786
08-07-2010, 09:56 AM
No, because he quit on his team and can't handle leading a team (best record in the league) to a ring.

the video in your sig was taken at my house.. no joke..

ps. lebron n wade need to team up cuz they cant take kobe on their own.. maybe they'll have better luck together with bosh

mikealike305
08-07-2010, 10:05 AM
Another thing i cant stand is MIA fans defending what LeBron did simply because he chose south beach. If Wade left MIA in the same fashion, heat fans would be irate saying the SAME things people are saying about James.

It is okay to be happy that LJ joined your team, it makes them an instant championship contender. But to defend what he did and especially how he went about it because he chose your team makes you just as much of a douche.

i would like for u to point out a single post where i or a heat fan defended how he did it, cuz i sure as hell didint so im not to sure what u are talking about, if wade left miami i would have been mad, would i have burned his jersey? probably not. if wade left i would of understood, he is one of the greatest in the world with one ring? i would understand. i dont defend lebron cuz he went to south beach i defend him cuz i feel he had everyright to leave. i dont agree with the way he did it and i think the whole hour special was a joke but other than that he did nothing wrong, he wasnt winning rings, he wanted to win, so he put himself on a team that can almost promise more than 1 ring, i would of done the same

tcav701
08-07-2010, 10:17 AM
i would like for u to point out a single post where i or a heat fan defended how he did it, cuz i sure as hell didint so im not to sure what u are talking about, if wade left miami i would have been mad, would i have burned his jersey? probably not. if wade left i would of understood, he is one of the greatest in the world with one ring? i would understand. i dont defend lebron cuz he went to south beach i defend him cuz i feel he had everyright to leave. i dont agree with the way he did it and i think the whole hour special was a joke but other than that he did nothing wrong, he wasnt winning rings, he wanted to win, so he put himself on a team that can almost promise more than 1 ring, i would of done the same

Im not saying you specifically, but its hard to keep track the heat fans are commin out of their caves lately.

the only other point ill make before i enjoy my weekend is the best want to beat the best and still no matter how many rings he wins in MIA wont compare to 1 in CLE.

Jaji
08-07-2010, 10:57 AM
No, because he quit on his team and can't handle leading a team (best record in the league) to a ring.

I just have one question for you: Why are you so mad? So LeBron is going to Miami where it is very likely he'll end up with more rings than Michael Jordan. So what? You act like he did something to you personally. It sucks to be you because you're so angry while everyone else gets to laugh at you. No need adding more stress to your life. It's only a game, guy ;).

mikealike305
08-07-2010, 11:07 AM
I just have one question for you: Why are you so mad? So LeBron is going to Miami where it is very likely he'll end up with more rings than Michael Jordan. So what? You act like he did something to you personally. It sucks to be you because you're so angry while everyone else gets to laugh at you. No need adding more stress to your life. It's only a game, guy ;).

this,
btw you are from tampa? how did u end up a heat fan not a magic fan? dont mean it in a wrong way just a curious question

HiphopRelated
08-07-2010, 11:10 AM
Lakers did the same with Bynum, they didn't trade him for KG, J.O'Neal or J.Kidd. Does that mean they weren't trying their best?
if Kobe was a free agent, I think Bynum would have been booted out if necessary.

you're not building around JJ frickin Hickson or Bynum

mikealike305
08-07-2010, 11:13 AM
Im not saying you specifically, but its hard to keep track the heat fans are commin out of their caves lately.

the only other point ill make before i enjoy my weekend is """the best want to beat the best"""" and still no matter how many rings he wins in MIA wont compare to 1 in CLE.

i agree with what i put in quotes 100%.... and im sure LeBron agrees, he will beat the best when the heat beat L.A (kobe) and he will beat the best when the heat beat OKC (KD) and denver (MeLo) when L.A falls out, and in the future he will beat the best when the heat beat the bulls (Rose) and the wiz (Wall).... i can go on all day... Alot of good talent in the NBA... stupid argument IMO to say he doesnt want to beat the best cuz he joined wade, all it means is they will beat the best together

prodigy
08-07-2010, 11:16 AM
BTW- Cavs offered Z, JJ, Green, picks and cash for A'mare. Who ever keeps saying cavs did not offer Hickson stop, your wrong.

BrotherRedz
08-07-2010, 11:20 AM
BTW- Cavs offered Z, JJ, Green, picks and cash for A'mare. Who ever keeps saying cavs did not offer Hickson stop, your wrong.

The problem with Amare deal is that Steve Kerr wont respond at the last day of the deadline, it looks like he might leave them hanging in mid-air, yeah screwing the Cavs, so Cavs took Jamison instead


Remember no one right has the ability win against a healthy Boston in the East and a healthy Lakers of the West, until Bron, Wade, Bosh joined together under one roof.
(Familiar with the 80's scenario?)


The only haters of this reality is obviously, Lakers, Boston and the people who didnt got LeBron

Brooklyn Mets
08-07-2010, 11:26 AM
If a player bails at first opportunity to go to an already championship caliber team, then he is a "ringchaser." Players who give the team that drafted them little or no opportunity to build around them are ringchasers.

agree.. also a lot of players become ringchasers when they get closer to retirement regardless of how many rings they already have if any..

Laker Legend42
08-07-2010, 01:06 PM
I think Shaq is more intrested in being the first player to win rings with both the Lakers and Celtics. That goes right in line with his most dominant player self given title. To be the only onme to do this would be huge.

Laker Legend42
08-07-2010, 01:08 PM
agree.. also a lot of players become ringchasers when they get closer to retirement regardless of how many rings they already have if any..

Exactly. Money first and if I have time I'll stop and get a ring. I can't say I blame them because you can't eat that ring after retirement.

hugepatsfan
08-07-2010, 01:50 PM
I just have one question for you: Why are you so mad? So LeBron is going to Miami where it is very likely he'll end up with more rings than Michael Jordan. So what? You act like he did something to you personally. It sucks to be you because you're so angry while everyone else gets to laugh at you. No need adding more stress to your life. It's only a game, guy ;).

That's a pretty bold prediction. I would say rather unlikely that he gets 7 rings.

sargon21
08-07-2010, 01:58 PM
I just have one question for you: Why are you so mad? So LeBron is going to Miami where it is very likely he'll end up with more rings than Michael Jordan. So what? You act like he did something to you personally. It sucks to be you because you're so angry while everyone else gets to laugh at you. No need adding more stress to your life. It's only a game, guy ;).

its heat fans like you that make me sick. you give no respect to the rest of the league, including the back-to-back champions lakers, and then you proclaim that lbj will get more rings than the GOAT, just based on 3 big names -- wade would be 35 by the time they would need to win 7 in a row, you can be happy about your team, just show respect ... and knowing your fellow heat fans i'll just get an immature response U Mad??

Rebelo
08-07-2010, 03:05 PM
He gave them 7 years, Colangelo just did a poor job surrounding him with talent.

Your point is solid though.

Exactly 7 years is a long time, he never requested a trade ala Carter either so he gave Toronto the ball and they dropped it.. SIMPLE

Avenged
08-07-2010, 03:12 PM
This is all irrelevant because the fact of the matter is if someone like James wins 5 rings in MIA it wont mean nearly as much to fans, other players, league officials and LeBron himself than if he won 1 championship in CLE.

Joining a championship team is easy, respect is earned.

I disagree.

A championship is a championship no matter what. If a player had the opportunity to join in on or create what happen in Miami, they'd do it too if they were in Lebron or Wade's shoes.

5 rings would cement the Heat in NBA history and will be known as one of the greatest teams of all time. A championship is valued either way.

SiR Lakers III
08-07-2010, 03:25 PM
Top 5 Ringchasers

1. Shaq
2. Lebron
3. Garnett
4. Allan
5. Bosh

Yanks All Day
08-07-2010, 03:41 PM
Players who play out their contract with a team and leave to succeed somewhere else should not be considered ring chasers. Nor should they be considered loyal to their team, but they were at least loyal to their contract. Players who demand out of a contract to go somewhere else, likewise, should not be considered loyal.

Didn't read the rest of the thread, but because I know it's coming eventually: Bosh and LeBron were loyal to their contracts, and exercised their rights as free agents to pursue success with a new team. I don't believe Wade can be considered loyal because he waited until he got word from Bosh and LeBron to stay in Miami. Had Bosh/LeBron gone elsewhere, there is no way we can definitively say that D-Wade would have stayed on the Heat. Kobe demanded out of LA a few years ago when they were losing before they pulled off the Gasol heist, so we can't say he has been completely loyal, either. To me, Paul Pierce is the definition of loyalty. He was stuck on a bad team, but played through it until he got help. Other players qualify as well, such as Duncan, Nash, etc, but Pierce just exemplifies loyalty because the Celtics were bottom feeders, while the Spurs and Suns were competing for titles.

At this point in his career, as much as I hate to say it, Shaq is a ring chaser. He joins contenders who have already been established and hopes to push them over the top and win a ring before he retires. Shaq is really the only player I can see as a true ring chaser.

ryang
08-07-2010, 03:45 PM
Bosh never gave the Raps a chance to win with him. He always knew he'd be leaving and before this season, barring an amazing year from Toronto, no one thought he'd stay.
Lebron failed as a Cav and went to a safe bet. He knew that franchise bent over backwards for him and didn't stay to give them another chance.
Boozer jumped to where the money was when he was in Cleveland years ago and then bolted a good thing in Utah for another good thing in Chicago.

That's not loyalty. It's not a bad thing, but loyalty is KG not wanting to leave the Wolves even at their worst times. He was there through bad and good and bad again until Minny wanted to move in another direction.
Pierce stayed with Boston when he was a free agent, before they got the big 3.


You do realize K.G. said one of his major regrets as an athlete was not leaving minnesota ealier right???

tredigs
08-07-2010, 04:09 PM
Top 5 Ringchasers

1. Shaq
2. Lebron
3. Garnett
4. Allan
5. Bosh

Bosh signed before Lebron: So clearly he isn't.
Shaq was either the main or a huge reason both LA and Miami won: So you could argue that in his later years maybe, but not now.
Lebron is joining a team that can't get out of the first round - and Bosh isn't enough to make a first-round exit team a contender, so if they win it's due in large part to him.
Without Garnett + Allen the Celtics have no chance to contend, so again - fail.

Laker Legend42
08-07-2010, 09:52 PM
Top 5 Ringchasers

1. Shaq
2. Lebron
3. Garnett
4. Allan
5. Bosh

Both Ray Allen and Garnett were traded. KG tried to do it with his original team. How long should he have stayed?

SupeUnagi
08-07-2010, 10:09 PM
whats the point of playing if you know that youre not giving yourself the best chance to win?

and especially with all the work these guys put in, and leaving their families for so long. play to win, its more fun

THE MTL
08-07-2010, 11:26 PM
Iono how you ppl have Kobe as LOYAL player. Yall forget about his trade demands and whining until Lakers got Pau Gasol. It got to the point where he put out a youtube vid bashing his own teammate? Are u serious??

And why was this you ask......Lakers had two mediocre years after trading one of the best centers of all time. SMH!!!!!!

THE MTL
08-07-2010, 11:29 PM
I personally DONT put too much onto a championship....yeah it helps alot, but you cant fault a guy for not having a stacked team in order to win 5 and 6 times OR running into a MAJOR DYNASTY!

THE MTL
08-07-2010, 11:32 PM
Top 5 Ringchasers

1. Shaq
2. Lebron
3. Garnett
4. Allan
5. Bosh

I think the league has made Lebron into a ring chaser. His accolades and records as ALREADY amazing. He has honors and achievements in every aspect of the game, but a championship. But for some reason, thats not good enough for ppl. The mentality that ppl put on him is you havent won anything till a championship. NBA is so much more than just a championship. Adam Morrison won a championship. Jordan Farmer won a championship. Darko Millic won a championship.

Geargo Wallace
08-07-2010, 11:46 PM
LeBron is not a ring chaser because he wasn't joining an elite team. The Heat only became elite with the addition of LeBron. Ppl who join the Lakers, Boston, Orlando ect for cheap are ring chasers for the most part.

_KB24_
08-08-2010, 01:35 AM
Iono how you ppl have Kobe as LOYAL player. Yall forget about his trade demands and whining until Lakers got Pau Gasol. It got to the point where he put out a youtube vid bashing his own teammate? Are u serious??

And why was this you ask......Lakers had two mediocre years after trading one of the best centers of all time. SMH!!!!!!

I was going to respond, but then I saw your sig. No comment.

sargon21
08-08-2010, 01:42 AM
LeBron is not a ring chaser because he wasn't joining an elite team. The Heat only became elite with the addition of LeBron. Ppl who join the Lakers, Boston, Orlando ect for cheap are ring chasers for the most part.

i agree with this, the only 2 problems I have with lebron was that he basically admitted he's not going to be the leader of a championship team and the "decision"

SupeUnagi
08-08-2010, 03:12 AM
ive never seen people so bothered by a tv special and new team
lebron pwns all

hugepatsfan
08-08-2010, 03:31 AM
You do realize K.G. said one of his major regrets as an athlete was not leaving minnesota ealier right???

But he stayed. Using hindsight, he realizes it would have been better for him to leave. But in the moment, he gave all he had to the MIN franchise. He never wanted to be dealt - he was talked into it.

hugepatsfan
08-08-2010, 03:32 AM
KG = loyal
Duncan = loyal
Kobe, Pierce = not loyal.

They demanded trades and just lucked into the situations they are in now.

hugepatsfan
08-08-2010, 03:36 AM
Players who play out their contract with a team and leave to succeed somewhere else should not be considered ring chasers. Nor should they be considered loyal to their team, but they were at least loyal to their contract. Players who demand out of a contract to go somewhere else, likewise, should not be considered loyal.

Didn't read the rest of the thread, but because I know it's coming eventually: Bosh and LeBron were loyal to their contracts, and exercised their rights as free agents to pursue success with a new team. I don't believe Wade can be considered loyal because he waited until he got word from Bosh and LeBron to stay in Miami. Had Bosh/LeBron gone elsewhere, there is no way we can definitively say that D-Wade would have stayed on the Heat. Kobe demanded out of LA a few years ago when they were losing before they pulled off the Gasol heist, so we can't say he has been completely loyal, either. To me, Paul Pierce is the definition of loyalty. He was stuck on a bad team, but played through it until he got help. Other players qualify as well, such as Duncan, Nash, etc, but Pierce just exemplifies loyalty because the Celtics were bottom feeders, while the Spurs and Suns were competing for titles.

At this point in his career, as much as I hate to say it, Shaq is a ring chaser. He joins contenders who have already been established and hopes to push them over the top and win a ring before he retires. Shaq is really the only player I can see as a true ring chaser.

Pierce told the Celtics to get him some help or trade him. BOS tried for Garnett originally, but he refused to sign an extension so BOS would not do the deal for a rental (KG had an opt out clause after the season). That forced BOS to overpay for Ray in a trade. In the meantime, deals to land KG in LA or PHX fell through. W/ Ray in the fold, KG decided he would sign an extension in BOS. BOS had the best offer after LA and PHX backed out, and the rest is hostory.

Moral of the story - Pierce is the same as Kobe when it comes to loyalty. They wanted out but got lucky.

_KB24_
08-08-2010, 04:32 AM
Pierce told the Celtics to get him some help or trade him. BOS tried for Garnett originally, but he refused to sign an extension so BOS would not do the deal for a rental (KG had an opt out clause after the season). That forced BOS to overpay for Ray in a trade. In the meantime, deals to land KG in LA or PHX fell through. W/ Ray in the fold, KG decided he would sign an extension in BOS. BOS had the best offer after LA and PHX backed out, and the rest is hostory.

Moral of the story - Pierce is the same as Kobe when it comes to loyalty. They wanted out but got lucky.

I would still call them loyal. Even with their demands, they still wanted to stay with their organizations. I wouldn't call it a whole-hearted demand wanting out, they were just fed up with their surroundings that showed NO sign of improvement in the near future. They both struck home runs in the acquisitions of Pau and Ray & Garnett. The teams are the ones that were lucky.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2010, 10:00 AM
I would still call them loyal. Even with their demands, they still wanted to stay with their organizations. I wouldn't call it a whole-hearted demand wanting out, they were just fed up with their surroundings that showed NO sign of improvement in the near future. They both struck home runs in the acquisitions of Pau and Ray & Garnett. The teams are the ones that were lucky.

for me, it keeps coming back to this. Yes, Kobe and Pierce were frustrated with their respective franchises. But Kobe's had already given him the support to win 3 rings. Pierce had 0. His team's were always inferior to what Kobe had. I just personally think Pierce was in a different scenario. Playing for a team, at the end of his prime, that NEVER delivered him the support. Kobe was not in that same boat.

_KB24_
08-08-2010, 03:06 PM
for me, it keeps coming back to this. Yes, Kobe and Pierce were frustrated with their respective franchises. But Kobe's had already given him the support to win 3 rings. Pierce had 0. His team's were always inferior to what Kobe had. I just personally think Pierce was in a different scenario. Playing for a team, at the end of his prime, that NEVER delivered him the support. Kobe was not in that same boat.

We're talking about them in the franchise player scenario aren't we? They didn't build around Kobe pre-2004. So from 2004, up until Kobe's demands, the team was in total disarray. No sign of championship-caliber team whatsoever. Pierce and Kobe are definitely in the same boat.

RedRicanoBx
08-08-2010, 03:37 PM
Pierce is loyal to Boston just like KG was loyal to Minny. They dealt him, so that will always be there.
Guys Like Lebron, Bosh, Boozer, are not.

There's really only one type. If someone doesn't complain about wanting to be traded and stays as long as he can, then they're loyal. If they leave for money or to chase success, then they aren't. I don't think that can be debated either.

well said good sir

Hawkeye15
08-08-2010, 03:39 PM
We're talking about them in the franchise player scenario aren't we? They didn't build around Kobe pre-2004. So from 2004, up until Kobe's demands, the team was in total disarray. No sign of championship-caliber team whatsoever. Pierce and Kobe are definitely in the same boat.

totally disagree man

_KB24_
08-08-2010, 03:45 PM
totally disagree man

Would love to hear why. You cannot possibly bring in Kobe in the argument pre-2004. He was not their franchise player.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2010, 03:57 PM
Would love to hear why. You cannot possibly bring in Kobe in the argument pre-2004. He was not their franchise player.

but you can. He was an all star on a championship team man well before 2004. The Lakers gave him supreme talent from day 1 in his situation, and they went into a few year period of rebuilding on the fly after Shaq left. Pierce never won ****. Never, until late in his career.
They are just different scenarios all together. Kobe never experienced what Pierce did.

lakersfan01
08-08-2010, 04:09 PM
also, I wouldn't call Boozer a ring chaser. I don't know what he is, but rings haven't been his motivation.

a money chaser lol

_KB24_
08-08-2010, 04:09 PM
but you can. He was an all star on a championship team man well before 2004. The Lakers gave him supreme talent from day 1 in his situation, and they went into a few year period of rebuilding on the fly after Shaq left. Pierce never won ****. Never, until late in his career.
They are just different scenarios all together. Kobe never experienced what Pierce did.

But the whole franchise tag comes into play as well. The topic is on ringchasers who were the face of their franchise and left for rings. Kobe was not that pre-2004. I can only put the slight blame on him for the debacle in the 03/04 season, even though as a resident of LA and Lakers fan for 20 years plus, the circumstances would gather a rated "R" tag for everything that happened. And I know this is a week argument, but many (not me) were all over that Celtics team in early 00's. They did make the ECF, albeit in a sorry conference at the time. What they experienced from relatively around the same time (04- till the summer of 07), was pretty much the same scenario.

Dade County
08-08-2010, 04:17 PM
I haven't looked at all the post... but I hope someone mentioned Magic Johnson as a ring chaser, BECAUSE he said that he would not have left college, if the bulls had the first overall pick, he very much like the idea of playing with the lakers superstars and would not want to go to the bulls just to try to rebuild a franchise.

Lbj didn't say, Cavs got the first pick, I'm going to college now.

And he gave 7yrs to the Cavs, he has the right to go to any team he wants, most of you are just mad, that he didn't pick your team. What shaq is doing at the end of his career, is ring chasing (but yes shaq has rings already, he just wants more; and their is noting wrong with that) ......... what Lbj did, is him and his friends got together and said lets make a super team. He put his-self in the best position to win, what's wrong with that, he was a free agent.

Just stop with the hate already, and let the man live his life.

I'm going to get bash (hear it comes)........ smh already.

Hawkeye15
08-08-2010, 04:18 PM
But the whole franchise tag comes into play as well. The topic is on ringchasers who were the face of their franchise and left for rings. Kobe was not that pre-2004. I can only put the slight blame on him for the debacle in the 03/04 season, even though as a resident of LA and Lakers fan for 20 years plus, the circumstances would gather a rated "R" tag for everything that happened. And I know this is a week argument, but many (not me) were all over that Celtics team in early 00's. They did make the ECF, albeit in a sorry conference at the time. What they experienced from relatively around the same time (04- till the summer of 07), was pretty much the same scenario.

While we all agree Shaq was option A on those teams, Kobe was indeed an all star and half the face of the Lakers.
Basically what I am saying is, Kobe was a complete stud on 3 championship teams, and then had a lull. Pierce was in a lull until 2008.
There is a difference between them.
We just don't see eye to eye on this, but we both get each others points. We can leave it at that.

S-Dot
08-10-2010, 01:41 PM
Pierce is loyal to Boston just like KG was loyal to Minny. They dealt him, so that will always be there.
Guys Like Lebron, Bosh, Boozer, are not.

There's really only one type. If someone doesn't complain about wanting to be traded and stays as long as he can, then they're loyal. If they leave for money or to chase success, then they aren't. I don't think that can be debated either.

first time reading this thread...good one. And the first post made the most sense. Though chasing success and money isnt always being a ring chaser. Shaq left Orlando, who was a better team than LA was at the time. But I definitely wouldn't consider his move to LA as being a ring chaser.