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View Full Version : Foolish for teams to be stubborn and not trade their players (Suns and Raps)?



Boston Faithful
08-02-2010, 04:35 PM
This offseason, we've seen Amare Stoudemire, Chris Bosh and LeBron James walk for nothing but big trade exceptions.

For months, for years, Amare and Bosh were the focus of trade rumors. Everybody watched as the Raptors and Suns constantly turned down deals for them. Well, now they just lost them for pretty much nothing.

Amare's on the Knicks and Bosh is on the Heat. On the flipside, had the teams not been foolish and stubborn, they could have had some nice young prospects for Amare and Bosh.

I'm not going to say the Cavaliers should have traded LeBron, but if they had, they would still have a 45-50 win team instead of one of the worst teams in the league. Teams would have traded their whole roster for LeBron.

Teams are just stubborn these days. They are so scared to make a move, to trade their star, such as the 76ers with Andre Iguodala. Hopefully the Hornets and Nuggets aren't so foolish to make the same mistake.

In the next five years, as presently constructed, the only teams that will win a championship are the Heat, Lakers, Magic or Celtics. If the Bulls or Knicks add pieces, they too could contend. But for the Nuggets or Hornets to think they even have a chance is just foolish. They should just trade Paul and Anthony.

PrettyBoyJ
08-02-2010, 04:43 PM
Think like an owner you trade your best player away you lose money and the attendance goes down, then the concession stands dont sell, ppl buy less jerseys, then you have to cut lower level seat prices in half to attract fans to come, which could all be avoided if you didnt trade your superstar and just add the right pieces to play along side them.. Some owners dont want to dish out the contracts but wen you build a winning team and they deliver you a championship the return is greater then the what you spent.. (Lakers, Yankees)

valade16
08-02-2010, 04:45 PM
Think like an owner you trade your best player away you lose money and the attendance goes down, then the concession stands dont sell, ppl buy less jerseys, then you have to cut lower level seat prices in half to attract fans to come, which could all be avoided if you didnt trade your superstar and just add the right pieces to play along side them.. Some owners dont want to dish out the contracts but wen you build a winning team and they deliver you a championship the return is greater then the what you spent.. (Lakers, Yankees)

Way to pick the two teams that have the most inherent advantages...

Wade>You
08-02-2010, 04:46 PM
I'm pretty sure Miami would've gladly offered the #2 pick (when it wasn't Michael Beasley) to the Raps for Bosh.

king4day
08-02-2010, 04:54 PM
Suns essentially traded Amar'e for Warrick, Childress, and Turk.
It's no equal value of course, but it's better than just Hickson or Beasley.

Kyben36
08-02-2010, 04:54 PM
Lebron wasnt expected to leave, so you cant include them. The suns Jazz, Raps, probably, although the jazz got a nice concilation prize in Jeferson. the other 2 however, not so much.

Khalifa21
08-02-2010, 04:55 PM
I agree but owners always have that glimmer of hope that their player will re-sign. They don't wanna show the fans that they've pretty much given up on their franchise player by waving the white flag and surrendering them for packages of unequal value.

As said before, it can drive attendances down and the general feeling of the team will be that they've just given up. From a mental perspective, if a player leaves it's on him... He let the team down and in some cases the owner isn't to blame.

Should the owners be less stubborn when it comes to trading their franchise player if he's pretty much guaranteed to leave (like Bosh in Toronto)? Yes. Will it change? No.

Teams can always say after they've lost a star in FA "damn, I wish we'd traded him beforehand". A lot of the times this situation comes around there's a lot of worry on the team proposing the trade that the star could just walk when his contract is up. That way teams are more cautious about gutting their rosters for a rental. Another example is when the star would rather sign as a FA so they can play with the more talented team. If it's a sign and trade, the team the star is going to will be a lot less attractive if the whole team has been gutted.

This all amounts to making these kinda trades seem like they're gonna remain a rarity in the NBA.

Da Knicks
08-02-2010, 04:57 PM
Its hard for people to trade the best player and hope that fans don't turn on them. I hope Melo and Paul do get traded though since I think those two deserve a chance at a ring.

Wade>You
08-02-2010, 04:57 PM
Suns essentially traded Amar'e for Warrick, Childress, and Turk.
It's no equal value of course, but it's better than just Hickson or Beasley.You'd rather have nothing for Amare than to get Hickson or Beasley? This thread isn't "Foolish for fans to be stubborn and not trade their players."

Raph12
08-02-2010, 05:00 PM
Hornets will be in this boat in 2 years if they don't trade CP3

DerekRE_3
08-02-2010, 05:01 PM
Suns essentially traded Amar'e for Warrick, Childress, and Turk.
It's no equal value of course, but it's better than just Hickson or Beasley.

Hedo's contract begs to differ, especially if he didn't waive most of that trade kicker in his contract. What the Suns are doing reminds me of what the Kings did when their window closed, which is get complimentary pieces that are overpaid (Warrick, Frye, Turkoglu, Childress) in an effort to stay competitive (and get mediocre draft picks in the process). All that they are going to do is delay the inevitable and be stuck with bad contracts once they are pretty much forced to rebuild.

John Walls Era
08-02-2010, 05:09 PM
I'm pretty sure Miami would've gladly offered the #2 pick (when it wasn't Michael Beasley) to the Raps for Bosh.

That would've actually helped the Heat even more by clearing cap space. Raptors got back their pick and another 1 so its not too bad. Not sure if Raptor fans even want Beasley.

MG3
08-02-2010, 05:10 PM
To be fair, the suns thought they could win this year and finishing in the WCF losing to the eventual champs is a pretty good year.

SA5195
08-02-2010, 05:10 PM
We were like 4-5 games back of the 4th seed. Why would we trade the best player?

And Bosh also got injured 1 day before the trade deadline.

REGular
08-02-2010, 05:13 PM
If Lebron had been traded to the Heat this season, b/c he told Cavs he wouldn't be signing there again, would Lebron/Wade have received the same kind of backlash?

Lancelot
08-02-2010, 05:13 PM
Suns essentially traded Amar'e for Warrick, Childress, and Turk.
It's no equal value of course, but it's better than just Hickson or Beasley.

yeah, the package the suns flipped the cap space and trade exception for turned out to be better than any offer for amare.

ink
08-02-2010, 05:16 PM
Hedo's contract begs to differ, especially if he didn't waive most of that trade kicker in his contract. What the Suns are doing reminds me of what the Kings did when their window closed, which is get complimentary pieces that are overpaid (Warrick, Frye, Turkoglu, Childress) in an effort to stay competitive (and get mediocre draft picks in the process). All that they are going to do is delay the inevitable and be stuck with bad contracts once they are pretty much forced to rebuild.

They seem to be relying too heavily on Nash's ability to make players around him better. I'm not sure how Hedo and Nash will be together either. I think you have a point about them taking an approach like the Kings. It's hard to just go from WCF one year to rebuild the next. Hard at the gate in terms of ticket revenue and fan interest.

--

About the OP, what makes you think that "stubbornness" is the issue? There are no guarantees in the draft and rebuilding is no more guarantee than trying hard to win with what you have. The Suns had a pretty damn good season last year and getting to the WCF was a major achievement. Do you think their fans wanted to miss that? What if fans like the players they have and want to see how far they can go? These are all things that GMs have to balance.

DerekRE_3
08-02-2010, 05:24 PM
They seem to be relying too heavily on Nash's ability to make players around him better. I'm not sure how Hedo and Nash will be together either. I think you have a point about them taking an approach like the Kings. It's hard to just go from WCF one year to rebuild the next. Hard at the gate in terms of ticket revenue and fan interest.

--

About the OP, what makes you think that "stubbornness" is the issue? There are no guarantees in the draft and rebuilding is no more guarantee than trying hard to win with what you have. The Suns had a pretty damn good season last year and getting to the WCF was a major achievement. Do you think their fans wanted to miss that? What if fans like the players they have and want to see how far they can go? These are all things that GMs have to balance.

That's a good point. Hedo excelled with the Magic when he had the ball in his hands, which worked out great since Nelson is more of a shooter anyways. Nash has the ball constantly in the Suns system (can't blame them for that). I know Nash is still an excellent player, but he is closer to the end than the beginning and once he's gone...what do the Suns have? I like Dragic but he's not Nash.

ChiSox219
08-02-2010, 05:26 PM
Suns are not foolish, they came out of this off-season and improved team.

king4day
08-02-2010, 05:28 PM
You'd rather have nothing for Amare than to get Hickson or Beasley? This thread isn't "Foolish for fans to be stubborn and not trade their players."

For Phoenix, it led to a deep playoff run. Through free agency and trade, we ended up with 3 players who can help this team. Kerr didn't have confidence that Hickson was going to be the future PF for the Suns and no one in this league wanted Beasley.
So instead of making a desperate trade, they took a chance to resign him. That didn't workout, so with the trade exception, we landed Warrick, Turk, and Childress.

How this team fairs from this point on is to be determined, but you can't say the Phoenix Suns got nothing for Amar'e. That was a valuable trade exception and it allowed their fans to be excited for this team, during and after the season.

During the year, there's no player that was offered to the Suns that I wanted. I'd rather have lost him for nothing and take the hit. Fortunately that wasn't the case.

juggla53
08-02-2010, 05:29 PM
A team has almost no leverage when they are tradeing soon to be free agents, so knowing that they probabley wont get equal value or will have a hard time getting young talented cheaper players in return why would they want to tie up their cap for the forseeable future to take on players with bad contracts

king4day
08-02-2010, 05:35 PM
Hedo's contract begs to differ, especially if he didn't waive most of that trade kicker in his contract. What the Suns are doing reminds me of what the Kings did when their window closed, which is get complimentary pieces that are overpaid (Warrick, Frye, Turkoglu, Childress) in an effort to stay competitive (and get mediocre draft picks in the process). All that they are going to do is delay the inevitable and be stuck with bad contracts once they are pretty much forced to rebuild.

No argument on Turks contract. It's garbage and too long. Unless he has a really great run with us, chances are we buy out his 4th year for half the price.

When you look back, there's no team who rebuilt from scratch that's become a title contender (although the Thunder and Blazers have a chance to do that).
LA, San Antonio, Detroit, Miami all had pieces and just put players around them.

Phoenix has their youth in Dragic, Dudley, and Lopez. Throw in Childress and the suddenly impressive Lawal, and they have a good core. Clark still has potential but it doesn't look good for him.

Sure the contracts of Warrick, Turk, and Frye aren't pretty (in length at least), but at this stage, they are necessary to compete. They are also tradable during the ends of those deals. Right now Sarver is trying to get through the Nash era by staying competitive for him.

akesh99
08-02-2010, 05:39 PM
This offseason, we've seen Amare Stoudemire, Chris Bosh and LeBron James walk for nothing but big trade exceptions.

For months, for years, Amare and Bosh were the focus of trade rumors. Everybody watched as the Raptors and Suns constantly turned down deals for them. Well, now they just lost them for pretty much nothing.

Amare's on the Knicks and Bosh is on the Heat. On the flipside, had the teams not been foolish and stubborn, they could have had some nice young prospects for Amare and Bosh.

I'm not going to say the Cavaliers should have traded LeBron, but if they had, they would still have a 45-50 win team instead of one of the worst teams in the league. Teams would have traded their whole roster for LeBron.

Teams are just stubborn these days. They are so scared to make a move, to trade their star, such as the 76ers with Andre Iguodala. Hopefully the Hornets and Nuggets aren't so foolish to make the same mistake.

In the next five years, as presently constructed, the only teams that will win a championship are the Heat, Lakers, Magic or Celtics. If the Bulls or Knicks add pieces, they too could contend. But for the Nuggets or Hornets to think they even have a chance is just foolish. They should just trade Paul and Anthony.

There are always reasons for and against trading star players. When dealing with such a delicate situation one move could make or break an organization. For you to say that teams are "stubborn" is dumb. I'm a Raps fan and I know that despite the fact that we are gonna be in the bottom half of the league, we are better off as an organization without Bosh and his max deal. If we had traded him before the deadline, we would have most likely had to take on some large, lengthy contracts. The best thing for the Raps who are clearly rebuilding was the trade exception and picks. It gives them the flexibility to swing for the fences with the exception, or gives them long term security with the picks. Either way, we don't know what any of these players would have netted in return but from the Raptors standpoint, I am content with what we got.

king4day
08-02-2010, 05:41 PM
They seem to be relying too heavily on Nash's ability to make players around him better. I'm not sure how Hedo and Nash will be together either.

Based on what Gentry had said when they brought in Hedo, this team is going to do things they wouldn't have last year in that they'll let Hedo control the ball a lot as well in order to release Nash as a dead eye shooter (in so many words).
This gives you the two play makers who can shoot the 3ball really well. It also forces the forward who's guarding Hedo to come out on him and open the lane for Lopez (pray to god he develops a post game) to go to work.

Nash is smart and knows how to evade a defender around screens. Gentry knows how to set proper screens to get open looks also. This was an advantage of his following timeouts and low shotclock inbound plays.

You'll see a lot of PnR with Nash and Lopez this season. If Lopez can work on his offense, then this team has a chance to be better than last year.
But that's asking for a lot. Things need to fall into place.