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View Full Version : Getting Prospects for Type A and Type B free agents "Worst Case Scenario



BlueJayCarter
08-01-2010, 11:32 AM
I have had a day to steam off after the trade deadline and I am still pissed off. In articles I have read it leans towards are pitching A Type free agents accepting arbitration which in the article nstojic lists "is desirable" for A.A. It is only desirable next year if they perform to the same statistics as this year or better, because if they regress which is a real possibility their value will be extremely low come next trade deadline and A.A will still be asking for "elite prospects".

"Worst case scenario ..." getting draft picks for our Type A and Type B free agents. Hasn't someone told A.A we are rebuilding and youth is the way to rebuilding not keeping "old" players?

I thought the whole point in keeping them is for draft picks not resigning them hoping they put up the same numbers. Since the Wallace ... Gose Trade A.A is losing a lot of potential in my mind.


The problem with Downs for interested teams was that as a Type A free agent he would be worth two compensatory draft picks if the Jays offered him arbitration and he signed elsewhere. Any trade would have required a team to satisfy Anthopoulos’s view of fair compensation.

“It’s absolutely part of the criteria,” Anthopoulos said of what he would look for. “You have a lot of options. You get to keep the player and help your club continue to be competitive. We have fans that come to the stadium, that watch the games. You still have the option to keep the player, re-sign the player. Or, in the worst case scenario, you have the potential to get a draft pick — and if he accepts arbitration you get the player on a one-year non-guaranteed contract. There’s a lot of appeal to that.”

The Jays’ opening day closer has snuck in the back door of Type A status as a future free agent. The Jays at the deadline played hardball, demanding very close to two-draft pick equivalency. Nobody would bite. Frasor could end up with the Jays through the end of the season and if he is offered arbitration, might be well-advised to accept a one-year deal for 2011.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseba...ay-trade-front

Hello!!! We are not competing this year. And probably not next year. Why are we still competing 10 games back. It should have been time to give young prospects the chance.

ChacinCologne
08-01-2010, 11:34 AM
Cool story brohan

StayOnBoard
08-01-2010, 12:18 PM
A couple of "sandwich" picks in the past few years who have worked out very well... Unless Im completely missing your point?! AA is doing very well keeping his players for a shot at the following (younger version)

Dan Uggla, Johan Santana, Joba Chamberlain, Huston Street, Alfonso Soriano, Carlos Lee, Barry Zito, and many, many more...!

ALL were sandwich picks - this is the type of value (in a younger version) that AA can get by letting these players walk. Therefore, unless we got top talent back we weren't trading... I can hardly blame him.

If we traded players for fringe prospects everyone would complain how we didn't get value. We kept our players now everyone complains we did nothing.

Draft picks ARE very valuable - especially the Type A/B players (all above were taken after the first round). There is nothing wrong with the way AA is doing things, people just need to have patience; there lies the problem.

Cowboys123456
08-01-2010, 12:35 PM
A couple of "sandwich" picks in the past few years who have worked out very well... Unless Im completely missing your point?! AA is doing very well keeping his players for a shot at the following (younger version)

Dan Uggla, Johan Santana, Joba Chamberlain, Huston Street, Alfonso Soriano, Carlos Lee, Barry Zito, and many, many more...!

ALL were sandwich picks - this is the type of value (in a younger version) that AA can get by letting these players walk. Therefore, unless we got top talent back we weren't trading... I can hardly blame him.

If we traded players for fringe prospects everyone would complain how we didn't get value. We kept our players now everyone complains we did nothing.



Draft picks ARE very valuable - especially the Type A/B players (all above were taken after the first round). There is nothing wrong with the way AA is doing things, people just need to have patience; there lies the problem.



100% agree. Plus i go to many games and the idea of going to games where we have traded away our glue players and r left with nothing is not to appealing. Draft picks are never a bad thing and you need people who think otherwise need to get a bit more educated

BlueJayFanDan
08-01-2010, 02:15 PM
A couple of "sandwich" picks in the past few years who have worked out very well... Unless Im completely missing your point?! AA is doing very well keeping his players for a shot at the following (younger version)

Dan Uggla, Johan Santana, Joba Chamberlain, Huston Street, Alfonso Soriano, Carlos Lee, Barry Zito, and many, many more...!

ALL were sandwich picks - this is the type of value (in a younger version) that AA can get by letting these players walk. Therefore, unless we got top talent back we weren't trading... I can hardly blame him.

If we traded players for fringe prospects everyone would complain how we didn't get value. We kept our players now everyone complains we did nothing.

Draft picks ARE very valuable - especially the Type A/B players (all above were taken after the first round). There is nothing wrong with the way AA is doing things, people just need to have patience; there lies the problem.

The way I look at it is that guys like Gregg, Bautista, Gonzalez, Buck we gave up absolutely nothing for except money. They were essentially free. Didn't have to move players for them or anything which is why you sign those mediocre free agents in the offseason. Trading them at the deadline even getting one mediocre prospect is still getting a heck of a lot more then you gave up to get them right? I would have no problem getting some crappy prospect for someone like Gregg. Not like we gave up anything to get him.We got Gonzalez absolutely free. Well he turned into Yunel Escobar. That worked out nicely. Point is, any return on these kinds of players is good because you give up nothing to get them so do even get a small return is nice.

fatkev78
08-01-2010, 03:54 PM
The way I look at it is that guys like Gregg, Bautista, Gonzalez, Buck we gave up absolutely nothing for except money. They were essentially free. Didn't have to move players for them or anything which is why you sign those mediocre free agents in the offseason. Trading them at the deadline even getting one mediocre prospect is still getting a heck of a lot more then you gave up to get them right? I would have no problem getting some crappy prospect for someone like Gregg. Not like we gave up anything to get him.We got Gonzalez absolutely free. Well he turned into Yunel Escobar. That worked out nicely. Point is, any return on these kinds of players is good because you give up nothing to get them so do even get a small return is nice.

I would MUCH rather have the pick.

bomber0104
08-01-2010, 04:18 PM
Some people here are totally missing the point.. A guy like Frasor is anything but a guranteed 2 picks coming back..

The Jays will probably offer him over 3 million dollars in arbitration and he should definitely take it especially if he was a type A. We have seen a few type A FA who have not gotten signed because of the picks attached to them.

Frasor will just take the 1 year offer leaving us with an average reliever in a year when we will most likely not need him.

Same thing might happen with Downs especially since Downs arbitration should be a very respectable 5.5 mill or something

BlueJayCarter
08-01-2010, 05:05 PM
I would MUCH rather have the pick.

That is someone signs him. We might have him for two more years. What is the point in that? Same with Frasor, Downs and Buck .. what is the point if they come back next year. Bautista I think we can sign for three maybe a fourth as he has value. But the others can definately regress and if A.A is LOOKING TO SIGN THEM FOR NEXT TRADE DEADLINE as he says picks are the worst case scenario A.A might trade them just to get a worst prospect next deadline.

BlueJayCarter
08-01-2010, 05:11 PM
Some people here are totally missing the point.. A guy like Frasor is anything but a guranteed 2 picks coming back..

The Jays will probably offer him over 3 million dollars in arbitration and he should definitely take it especially if he was a type A. We have seen a few type A FA who have not gotten signed because of the picks attached to them.

Frasor will just take the 1 year offer leaving us with an average reliever in a year when we will most likely not need him.

Same thing might happen with Downs especially since Downs arbitration should be a very respectable 5.5 mill or something

Exactly. If other GMs were offering crap in trades ... I don't think that was the case as A.A said there was "fair offers" ... everyone has been saying we can wait to Free Agency and pick up two draft picks for Downs, two for Frasor, one for Gregg and one for Buck. Frasor, Gregg and Buck can easily fall off and we are left with Downs. Or Downs accepts arbitration so we have no draft picks and no prospect and "old useless players" next year who have a larger chance of regressing and blocking the path of youth. Or they all continue as Type A and B and sign with Toronto. No picks and no prospects.

If someone says they are okay with Buck, Downs, Frasor and Gregg coming back they have to have their head looked at as that situation will not be assisting in rebuilding the Blue Jays to a contender.

That is why I am upset, and alot of others are upset because the likelyhood of getting nothing but Downs, Buck, Frasor and Gregg has increased greatly heading towards the offseason compared to even just a single move to pick up a prospect or two.

Farsight
08-01-2010, 05:38 PM
A couple of "sandwich" picks in the past few years who have worked out very well... Unless Im completely missing your point?! AA is doing very well keeping his players for a shot at the following (younger version)

Dan Uggla, Johan Santana, Joba Chamberlain, Huston Street, Alfonso Soriano, Carlos Lee, Barry Zito, and many, many more...!

ALL were sandwich picks - this is the type of value (in a younger version) that AA can get by letting these players walk. Therefore, unless we got top talent back we weren't trading... I can hardly blame him.

If we traded players for fringe prospects everyone would complain how we didn't get value. We kept our players now everyone complains we did nothing.

Draft picks ARE very valuable - especially the Type A/B players (all above were taken after the first round). There is nothing wrong with the way AA is doing things, people just need to have patience; there lies the problem.

Dan Uggla was drafted in the 11th round by the Arizona, and was than later picked up by the Marlins in the rule 5 draft. The supplementary picks stop after the 3rd round i believe.

Alfonso was actually signed by the Yankees in 1998. He previously played in Japan.

Same goes with Johan Santana who was signed by Houston in 1995 as a center fielder and was converted to a pitcher. He was also a rule 5 draft pickup by Minnesota in 1999.

Carlos Lee was actually signed by the whitesox as an international free agent in 1994 and made his debut in 1999.

Actually Barry Zito was drafted 9th over all in the 1999 draft by Oakland

But i do agree with you that sandwich picks are very valuable and you can find good players in those positions.

wamco
08-01-2010, 05:47 PM
Draft picks are never a bad thing and you need people who think otherwise need to get a bit more educated

Well said.

wamco
08-01-2010, 05:49 PM
Dan Uggla was drafted in the 11th round by the Arizona, and was than later picked up by the Marlins in the rule 5 draft. The supplementary picks stop after the 3rd round i believe.

Alfonso was actually signed by the Yankees in 1998. He previously played in Japan.

Same goes with Johan Santana who was drafted by Houston in 1995 as a center fielder and was converted to a pitcher. He was also a rule 5 draft pickup by Minnesota in 1999.

Carlos Lee was actually signed by the whitesox as an international free agent in 1994 and made his debut in 1999.

Actually Barry Zito was drafted 9th over all in the 1999 draft by Oakland

owned.

broncosfan_101
08-01-2010, 05:50 PM
If someone says they are okay with Buck, Downs, Frasor and Gregg coming back they have to have their head looked at as that situation will not be assisting in rebuilding the Blue Jays to a contender.

I'd love to bring back Downs, he's a great reliever. Obviously the 2 picks would be more valuable to us, but if our worst case scenario is another season of Scott Downs at $4.5-5 mill, where we can still deal him at the next deadline, then we have absolutely nothing to complain about.

Buck has been good, and if we didn't have Arencibia ready to step in right now, I'd be fine with him coming back as well. I don't think he has as much value as a backup as Molina does so I don't think he should come back in that role, but I also think he's pretty much set as a Type B, so nobody will shy away from signing him in the offseason. We'll get our pick for him.

Frasor and Gregg, not so much, but I'm guessing they'll both be Type B's as well. I bet Gregg leaves and Frasor stays, which again is fine. It also gives us another chance to deal him at the next deadline.

Not too worried about not making any deals this weekend.

BlueJayCarter
08-01-2010, 05:52 PM
No posters are saying that draft picks are not great. A.A's own words in his article state that they would be a "worst case scenario".

So posters who think that should become better educated.

BlueJayFanDan
08-01-2010, 06:08 PM
I would MUCH rather have the pick.

I would love draft picks but we see it every year. Teams are LUCKY if they sign half the players they draft. You can bank on prospects who are already signed but you can never bank on draft picks.

StayOnBoard
08-01-2010, 06:20 PM
Dan Uggla was drafted in the 11th round by the Arizona, and was than later picked up by the Marlins in the rule 5 draft. The supplementary picks stop after the 3rd round i believe.

Alfonso was actually signed by the Yankees in 1998. He previously played in Japan.

Same goes with Johan Santana who was drafted by Houston in 1995 as a center fielder and was converted to a pitcher. He was also a rule 5 draft pickup by Minnesota in 1999.

Carlos Lee was actually signed by the whitesox as an international free agent in 1994 and made his debut in 1999.

Actually Barry Zito was drafted 9th over all in the 1999 draft by Oakland

But i do agree with you that sandwich picks are very valuable and you can find good players in those positions.

Your absolutely right - I was looking at the wrong column when I was checking the stats (guys who turned INTO Type A free agents as opposed to those who were drafted as a supplemental pick).

Regardless - the point still stands but I very much stand corrected :) Thank you sir lol. Either way, there are plenty of guys (like Joba and Street) who were picked there and have turned out to be great players. So it doesn't discount my argument one bit (although the Trolls would say otherwise by trying to make themselves look smart - hey - wasn't I supposed to be on your ignore list Wamco?) ;)

Gibby
08-01-2010, 06:24 PM
I would love draft picks but we see it every year. Teams are LUCKY if they sign half the players they draft. You can bank on prospects who are already signed but you can never bank on draft picks.

if you dont sign the draft picks you get picks back next year.

I think what some posters are saying is the picks are not guaranteed and players might accept arbitration. this is calculated risk the GM will make, he understands the market better than us. we have to understand alot of these players want more than 1 year deal.

The other thing is that teams will avoid signing players because fear of losing picks. This only a problem for Type As and not B. question is will teams be willing give up a 15th-30th pick or 2nd round pick for downs. i think they will.

wamco
08-01-2010, 06:27 PM
If we didn't get offered quality for downs this year, when the other team would get draft picks as well, why would we think there would be some great offer for him next year?

BlueJayCarter
08-01-2010, 06:51 PM
Your absolutely right - I was looking at the wrong column when I was checking the stats (guys who turned INTO Type A free agents as opposed to those who were drafted as a supplemental pick).

Regardless - the point still stands but I very much stand corrected :) Thank you sir lol. Either way, there are plenty of guys (like Joba and Street) who were picked there and have turned out to be great players. So it doesn't discount my argument one bit (although the Trolls would say otherwise by trying to make themselves look smart - hey - wasn't I supposed to be on your ignore list Wamco?) ;)

I am glad I don't have to work or deal with you on an every day basis. I have criticism of A.A and I am free to have my opinion of A.A and his lack of action which has increased the likelyhood of no draft picks and now no prospects and you label me a troll. I am glad you are not in political life. That person has a desenting opinion to my view ... off with his head.

I am ignoring both you and La11. There is no loss debating either of you.

Farsight
08-01-2010, 07:07 PM
Your absolutely right - I was looking at the wrong column when I was checking the stats (guys who turned INTO Type A free agents as opposed to those who were drafted as a supplemental pick).

Regardless - the point still stands but I very much stand corrected :) Thank you sir lol. Either way, there are plenty of guys (like Joba and Street) who were picked there and have turned out to be great players. So it doesn't discount my argument one bit (although the Trolls would say otherwise by trying to make themselves look smart - hey - wasn't I supposed to be on your ignore list Wamco?) ;)

I agree with you that there is a lot of talent to be found in the mlb draft. However, usually after the first 10 pics, the draft becomes completely unknown. However, i would rather have prospects who have showed potential already in the minors than the draft. Their is more certainty of a prospect who is already performing well in the minors, than drafting a player with a bunch of question marks.

However, if you are not getting quality players like Downs and Buck, i would keep the draft picks and pick players based on potential.

T.O. Fan
08-01-2010, 08:48 PM
WTF is AA supposed to say?

"Yeah, we're just riding out the rest of the season to collect on those draft picks. We have no desire to resign those guys and be competitive?

Come on.

The GM ALWAYS has to portray a sense of now to the fan base, at least a little bit.

StayOnBoard
08-01-2010, 08:56 PM
I am glad I don't have to work or deal with you on an every day basis. I have criticism of A.A and I am free to have my opinion of A.A and his lack of action which has increased the likelyhood of no draft picks and now no prospects and you label me a troll. I am glad you are not in political life. That person has a desenting opinion to my view ... off with his head.

I am ignoring both you and La11. There is no loss debating either of you.

I actually wasn't talking about you (if you actually read my post, this much would have been obvious).............. but anyways. I won't lose much sleep over it

Asham
08-01-2010, 10:30 PM
I have had a day to steam off after the trade deadline and I am still pissed off. In articles I have read it leans towards are pitching A Type free agents accepting arbitration which in the article nstojic lists "is desirable" for A.A. It is only desirable next year if they perform to the same statistics as this year or better, because if they regress which is a real possibility their value will be extremely low come next trade deadline and A.A will still be asking for "elite prospects".

"Worst case scenario ..." getting draft picks for our Type A and Type B free agents. Hasn't someone told A.A we are rebuilding and youth is the way to rebuilding not keeping "old" players?

I thought the whole point in keeping them is for draft picks not resigning them hoping they put up the same numbers. Since the Wallace ... Gose Trade A.A is losing a lot of potential in my mind.



http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseba...ay-trade-front

Hello!!! We are not competing this year. And probably not next year. Why are we still competing 10 games back. It should have been time to give young prospects the chance.

Buddy, go outside and get some fresh air. You sound like your going to blow a gasket over something that you shouldnt

donatolla
08-01-2010, 10:47 PM
WTF is AA supposed to say?

"Yeah, we're just riding out the rest of the season to collect on those draft picks. We have no desire to resign those guys and be competitive?

Come on.

The GM ALWAYS has to portray a sense of now to the fan base, at least a little bit.

I think you may be pretty close.... At some level, this is also a PR exercise, and there is a business to run.

Trading away all the valuable pieces for unknown names would surely decrease the number of paying tickets through the rest of the year. AA has to strike some balance between rebuilding and getting fans to come to the ball park.

fatkev78
08-02-2010, 12:42 AM
I would MUCH rather have the pick.


Some people here are totally missing the point.. A guy like Frasor is anything but a guranteed 2 picks coming back..

The Jays will probably offer him over 3 million dollars in arbitration and he should definitely take it especially if he was a type A. We have seen a few type A FA who have not gotten signed because of the picks attached to them.

Frasor will just take the 1 year offer leaving us with an average reliever in a year when we will most likely not need him.

Same thing might happen with Downs especially since Downs arbitration should be a very respectable 5.5 mill or something

To be clearer I guess I should have said I would much rather take a gamble on getting the picks then getting "some crappy prospect" as the poster had said. I think the poster below said it very well.


if you dont sign the draft picks you get picks back next year.

I think what some posters are saying is the picks are not guaranteed and players might accept arbitration. this is calculated risk the GM will make, he understands the market better than us. we have to understand alot of these players want more than 1 year deal.

The other thing is that teams will avoid signing players because fear of losing picks. This only a problem for Type As and not B. question is will teams be willing give up a 15th-30th pick or 2nd round pick for downs. i think they will.

2009mvp
08-02-2010, 12:46 AM
I think you may be pretty close.... At some level, this is also a PR exercise, and there is a business to run.

Trading away all the valuable pieces for unknown names would surely decrease the number of paying tickets through the rest of the year. AA has to strike some balance between rebuilding and getting fans to come to the ball park.

I think Bautista's the only one who would have affected the team in that sense. Trade a 34 year old non-closer it's no biggie, trade the major league home run leader and that makes some noise.

wamco
08-02-2010, 08:11 AM
Originally Posted by BlueJayFanDan
I would love draft picks but we see it every year. Teams are LUCKY if they sign half the players they draft. You can bank on prospects who are already signed but you can never bank on draft picks.

if you dont sign the draft picks you get picks back next year.

Not true for all picks throughout the draft.

although the Trolls would say otherwise by trying to make themselves look smart - hey - wasn't I supposed to be on your ignore list Wamco?)

You are, and have been since I said so. It still shows the junk you write when someone quotes you though.

T.O. Fan
08-02-2010, 09:33 AM
Lots of hostility on this thread.

Billyen
08-02-2010, 09:39 AM
You are, and have been since I said so. It still shows the junk you write when someone quotes you though.

As Richard would say..."And it's DEEP TOO!"

scotttube
08-03-2010, 03:24 PM
AA has to say that is the "worst case scenario." He's not going to say the best thing that can happen is we lose those players for draft picks. What does that say to the players? He's just telling a white lie to be politically correct but he is secretly hoping they all turn down arbitration like Scutaro and Barajas did.