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NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 05:34 PM
http://www.ballineurope.com/us-basketball/nba/kobe-bryant-on-european-basketball-player-development-4203/

In lieu of preparing for the 2010 FIBA World Championship with Team USA (sigh), Kobe Bryant has been visiting China this week as part of a promotional tour the locals are calling “Kobe 24 Live.” (Read: Kobe’s in Asia hocking basketball shoes.)

Putting in an appearance yesterday afternoon at 4.20pm in Changchun, Kobe signed a few autographs and dutifully commented on all things basketball for an adoring public – nothing unusual there.

However, what was unusual – and o so gratifying for fans of European basketball – was Bryant’s shout-out to The Continental method of developing players. From an English-language story running this morning from China’s national press agency Xinhua, Kobe was a bit fancifully quoted through a translator and back again, but the message on several topics was quite clear.

On what other countries need to learn from NBA and American basketball system, Kobe gave a surprising answer, and he said: “I believe that the system works best right now is not the US system, I believe it is the European system. Because they develop basketball players, and they teach them the skills. I think the European system has jumped over US system.”

Now one might argue that this is the viewpoint of an American baller who never played the college game in the ‘States, but might not David Stern & Co. (not to mention the NCAA) take this as a little constructive criticism…? BallinEurope has personally felt for at least a decade that the U.S. is crying out for a proper minor-league basketball system.

_________________________

Can't believe Kobe responded to my created topic faster than any PSD members :clap::clap::clap::clap:

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=515721
:p

AI4MVP
07-30-2010, 05:48 PM
its true. no raciscm here but if european players had the athletiscm of black guys, European players would dominate basketball

AI4MVP
07-30-2010, 05:50 PM
i GUAARANTEEE that FC Barcelona would be a playoff contender in the East

blue bleeder09
07-30-2010, 05:55 PM
i GUAARANTEEE that FC Barcelona would be a playoff contender in the East

STOP!!!!:facepalm:,kobe's being a salesman right now nothing more ...stick to soccer buddy thats what u know lol:D

knickerbockerny
07-30-2010, 05:58 PM
Kobe Bryant does not even believe that. Look at all NBA drafts. American born players dominate.

You can even look at some of the top foreign leagues, the top players over there are American born for the most part. Basketball, football and baseball are ways of life in the US. Inner city youth use those avenues as escape routes. While in Europe for the most part it is soccer.

Knowledge
07-30-2010, 06:02 PM
The FIBA rules require the players to play a different style that focus on passing,shooting, and more team play. If we played FIBA rules, our players would adjust too.

AI4MVP
07-30-2010, 06:03 PM
STOP!!!!:facepalm:,kobe's being a salesman right now nothing more ...stick to soccer buddy thats what u know lol:D

...i dont even follow soccer

D1JM
07-30-2010, 06:03 PM
Kobe Bryant does not even believe that. Look at all NBA drafts. American born players dominate.

You can even look at some of the top foreign leagues, the top players over there are American born for the most part. Basketball, football and baseball are ways of life in the US. Inner city youth use those avenues as escape routes. While in Europe for the most part it is soccer.

He is talking about development not talent.

AI4MVP
07-30-2010, 06:04 PM
and just becuz most fans here are striclty NBA fans and dont expand there horizons means u dont know whether or not im right so watch a couple games first

smith&wesson
07-30-2010, 06:10 PM
STOP!!!!:facepalm:,kobe's being a salesman right now nothing more ...stick to soccer buddy thats what u know lol:D

what are you saying ?? your post hurts my head.

Ray_R
07-30-2010, 06:15 PM
Yeah and fat people dominate track and field.

knickerbockerny
07-30-2010, 06:16 PM
He is talking about development not talent.

Doesn't a player have to develop to be considered talented?

If he is talking about player development, European v. US, which he is, he is wrong.

If he is talking about European players making strides in their development he is right.

NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 06:22 PM
Actually, "soccer" as you wanna call it, is more popular in most countries. (in Poland it's volleyball, in Lithuania it's basketball and so on)

It's more popular because you don't need to be a freak of nature to become great. The best player in the world at the moment is undersized (5ft6 maybe)

Basketball IQ in Europe is greater than the NBA.
The NBA in the past decade has been more about marketing and more of a show than a sport.

I just found the 2006 Greece Vs USA game, and the USA were soooo one-dimensional. They had 4 scorers plus Hinrich in, while Greece was having a rage with drives and post ups.
The NBA is relying its greatness with go-to guys. There's no doubt the best players in the world are American. Since forever.

But players use only their athleticism and talent. They rarely develop other skills, as in the NBA it's useless. Basketball is a team sport. The NBA has transformed into one-man or two-man shows. Defense is a team effort. But not in the NBA! Here you rate players as good/bad defenders etc. You rarely see someone whose name is not in the elite being double marked. There's no effort to help your teammate in defense mostly.

Also the NBA's rotating is pretty much stuck. Europe developed that. Back in the 90s in Europe, there would be players having 35/40 minutes play time and some had 1 or 2 minutes only. Now every team uses rotation, most of them effectively as well. Many teams use 10-12 players each game, with the least amount of minutes is probably 8-10

The biggest advantage Europe has over the NBA is the fact that they can take a kid from 10 years old (give or take a few years) and develop him until he's 17-18 and use him with the first team. The NBA does not have "basketball schools" in this way.

A player has to play in high school, then might move to a college in the other side of the country, then enters the draft and gets picked by somewhere in the middle. This messes up some players, but it could prove helpful to many as well.

But the key factor is loyalty. There's no loyalty in the NBA. That's because there's no player freedom. Player's can't have a choice as there's the draft, he has to be traded instead of having buy outs to request transfers etc.
In Europe, you are born in one place, root for that team from the moment you opened your eyes, dream of playing there, manage to do so, and you are part of that team until you retire.
In the NBA even the damn teams move to other places!!! How can that be possible?? And people call players disloyal for leaving franchises for others where they seize the moment of the current NBA state, which is earn more money!

System is way better than the current US system.
In the 90s, European basketball was mediocre. Now, I prefer watching the Euroleague Top 16 round and on, than the NBA Playoffs. When I was a kid I could stay awake until 5 am to watch the Bulls beat the Jazz in game 6. Now I only watch the Knicks when they're on and the weekly NBA programs just to be informed. There's no excitement. It's all about marketability.

All in all, in the NBA you have to be the best in order to get credit. In Europe we love our role players, there's no "6th man" and there's no "starters". There are 2-3 star players and the rest are role players. Now that's basketball.

Look out for Splitter, Pekovic, Mozgov and watch out for 2011 and on, coz Europe's going to earn some NBA money ;)

NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 06:24 PM
Ricky Rubio btw is a great PROSPECT. There are at least 5 Point Guards who are better than him in Europe.

Giantwarrior
07-30-2010, 06:26 PM
there more basketball development, camps and coaches in Europe. kids start at very young ages learning fundamentals.

in the usa you go to the park or local gym.

danidin
07-30-2010, 06:30 PM
STOP!!!!:facepalm:,kobe's being a salesman right now nothing more ...stick to soccer buddy thats what u know lol:D

"soccer" is the greatest game in the world.
very simple - european players are smarter bcuz they doesn't have enough talent, and the brain become the only adg. they can get against talented players.
nothing to do with black\white.

and yes, i can't watch european bball. boring. but if there is something that european bball is way better - fans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am5ed3SldgI

lakers4sho
07-30-2010, 06:38 PM
Doesn't a player have to develop to be considered talented?

Darius Miles pre-injury was talented, but not developed. See the difference?

jrodmesche
07-30-2010, 06:44 PM
damn bro take a chill pill.

but in response to anything u said, ur prolly a 13 year old kid that thinks using swear words is hella bad *** and you have absolutely no basketball knowledge if you think Ricky Rubio is guna get dominated by 3rd strong point guards when the point guards of team usa (chris paul, jason kidd, maybe youve heard of them. they arent exactly third stringers) have praised him and that when was he was a 17 year old kid, yes only 4 years older then u

i could beat ricky rubio 1 on 1 and im not 13 im 17. have fun watching euro basketball for the rest of ur life i would rather watch the spurs.

bogdanrom
07-30-2010, 06:45 PM
well u should fuking euro lover

First of all you, don't get panties in a knot, you inbred racist ******.

Also Kobe does believe what he's saying. He's not talking about US players vs European players, but the systems. In Europe kids as young as 7 or 8 years old are sent to camps that last until they are 14 or 15 not for a couple of days, or maybe weeks. While they are there they work on the basics, not on showing they're athletic capabilities.

If you don't agree with me, just look at the number of European players that are playing now in the NBA versus a couple of years. And the future is only brighter in Europe. You have to realize that many kids grew up wanting to play only soccer, but things are changing. Basketball has become a global sport.

I don't think we will see Europeans destroying in the NBA any time soon, but the values are getting much closer than a lot of us realize.

BALLER R
07-30-2010, 06:56 PM
whats wrong with this guy stop talking out your ***

TheHoopsProphet
07-30-2010, 06:59 PM
jrod's father beats him

NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 07:04 PM
o great now Im not only arguing with th Euro fans but also Canadiens. Hey look how good the Raptors did with all those Euros on there team haha yah they sucked dick there yah go.

They got 3 European players and suddenly they represent European players all over the world? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

They got Bargnani and Belinelli who are Italians, a nation that is considered below par these days in basketball. Jose Calderon is one of the best European PGs though.

I guess I can say the same about a team in Europe that has 3-4 American players. That Americans suck coz a random team in Europe has no success.

The NBA is a league with 1 winner and 29 losers. Europe has 2-3 trophies to be won each season by teams from each nation, not just 1 for all.

Hellcrooner
07-30-2010, 07:16 PM
lol.

He is right.


eve wondere d how do people like gasol or dirk or manu wich is weaker, Slower, unatheltic etc etc than the average afroamerican USA citizen player reached to being allstars?

because they were teached MUH BETTER fundamentals and were developed MUCH better than americna layers are being teached right now sepcailly if they simply stay at HS then 1 year of ncca an then to Nb.a
If the stayed at least 3 years in the ncaa their tehnic and skills woudl be much better than they are because in NBA theres no time to teach de youngsters.

Its a fact that eiurope is being better in develop players skilss Iq etc but of course snce 90 per cent of our pupulation is CAUCASIAN WHITE wich obviously is not the best suited to play basktball we dont come up with that many superstars-

Another fact? why do you think is really complcated to find a FULL CAUCASIAN american allstar right now? becaue they are being developed in usa and coaches there focus too much on phisics and not enough on skilss and iq so obviusly caucasiasn have a hard time learning.

IMO if i was a n usa father of a talented white propsect i woudl send him europe Jennigns way.


Oh and rememebr this.

right now european teams are bringing a lot of kids from AFRICA to their yout schemes to teac them.

Eiuro teaching + African Body = expect a lot of africans in the allstar in 10 to 15 years.

Next MJ will be a NIgerian, or COngoian that has been developed in Italy or Spain.
Mark my words.

PrettyBoyJ
07-30-2010, 07:26 PM
well he has a point they give time for European to develop as oppose to the US which give you a year, or 2 if your lucky if you dont show any signs they will get rid of you in Europe you have the time to develop and learn the game

NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 07:45 PM
well he has a point they give time for European to develop as oppose to the US which give you a year, or 2 if your lucky if you dont show any signs they will get rid of you in Europe you have the time to develop and learn the game

Key in Europe is that you learn the game and become a star under the same roof.

Basketball teams have youth ranks. Those are the "camps".
Every European sport follows that model.

It's much better than college sports then pros, but USA is one big country so it suited them well all these years.
Thing is, Europe until late 90s played almost the same rules with NCAA. They changed it and that's what made their teams better. They also changed philosophy.

No starters, no star player(there will always be stars, but not divas at least), no 6th man. The term role player means a lot there. A role player gets 15-25 minutes per game, not 10 at most. Young players know that they will get playing time as part of the rotation systems. It motivates them.

Raph12
07-30-2010, 08:11 PM
The Europeans are more fundamentally sound, but that's because most of the kids growing up here are dominating with their athleticism/size, they don't need those fundamentals until they hit college... Another reason to stay in school kids.

Raidaz4Life
07-30-2010, 08:16 PM
The Europeans are more fundamentally sound, but that's because most of the kids growing up here are dominating with their athleticism/size, they don't need those fundamentals until they hit college... Another reason to stay in school kids.

Exactly

Hellcrooner
07-30-2010, 08:44 PM
The Europeans are more fundamentally sound, but that's because most of the kids growing up here are dominating with their athleticism/size, they don't need those fundamentals until they hit college... Another reason to stay in school kids.

and sadly in college in usa they are centering too much in athlrticis m too.

BrotherRedz
07-30-2010, 08:45 PM
I guess Sasha Vujacic is superior than more USA made players

Oh Kobe.... oh sad, you envy his Girlfriend?

NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 09:02 PM
I guess Sasha Vujacic is superior than more USA made players


Vujacic didn't develop in Europe. He's just European.

A huge problem European players have in the NBA is that because they lack athleticism, they play them out of position.

Teams/coaches in the NBA do not suit their style according to the players, but they try to suit the players in their systems. (eg Mike D'Antoni).

Seems like most of you guys have no idea of what you're talking about as your eyes are set on the NBA and only.

lakers4sho
07-30-2010, 09:05 PM
Seems like most of you guys have no idea of what you're talking about as your eyes are set on the NBA and only.

No use talking to them.

BrotherRedz
07-30-2010, 09:05 PM
Seriously though if USA made player have finesse

Oh well that would be boring right? expecially college hoops

BrotherRedz
07-30-2010, 09:07 PM
Vujacic didn't develop in Europe. He's just European.

Vujačić began his professional career at the age of 16, playing with Snaidero Udine of Italy. His father Vaso Vujačić is a Serbian basketball coach.

Vujačić was also a member of the Slovenian junior national team. He won a silver medal at the 2002 European Junior Championship

I guess this isnt a development in Europe for you

Seems you are the one that has no idea of what you're talking about as your eyes are set on the NBA only

ALL_i-Do_is-Win
07-30-2010, 09:07 PM
yeah they get a head start
they start younger and focus on fundamentals
by the time they are nba everyone is a very good shooter and knows the game well enough not to hurt you

_KB24_
07-30-2010, 09:08 PM
Crooner just popped it :D

Don't agree with him, the US has a great system in place for development of our young-lings.

lakers4sho
07-30-2010, 09:08 PM
Vujačić began his professional career at the age of 16, playing with Snaidero Udine of Italy. His father Vaso Vujačić is a Serbian basketball coach.

Vujačić was also a member of the Slovenian junior national team. He won a silver medal at the 2002 European Junior Championship

I guess this isnt a development in Europe for you

You're using Sasha Vujacic as an example? That's like saying Fred Jones is the epitome of American basketball.

Hellcrooner
07-30-2010, 09:12 PM
thet ting is that the bad euros in nba like sasha are "bd" because

1 tey ar eno fisical enoug to endure the season

2 they are not enoug good one on one deffenders beause of a lack of speed or strenght ( they are go TEAM DEFENDERS BECAUSE THATS HOW YOU DEFFEND IN FIBA not one on one but with team help ystems)

bt you never see an euro failing because they cant shoot, otr can t shot FT or are not smart enough to understand the system of the coach, or dont have good moves , or has not enouh Iq or doe shave not enough fundamentls or doe snot handle the ball proprly etc ec.

and that must mean smoething

NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 09:22 PM
No, that does not qualify as development in Europe for an NBA ready player as he played at the youth ranks of a bad team that doesn't participate in the Euroleague. It's just like getting a D-Leaguer from a bad D-League team.


He's also a point guard and never played in that position in the NBA. I'm not saying he's very talented or anything, but you don't like him coz he can't play in the NBA as a shooting guard.

We've seen the NBA misuse Vasilis Spanoulis after he raped the "Dream Team" in 2006.
We've seen the NBA misuse Rudy Fernandez when he's got the quickest 3pt release in Europe and is the best European player in transition.

You can't judge a player by his NBA performance. I guess the organizers don't even wanna think of the possibility that a non-American is among the top 10 players of the league.

How many non-American hall of famers are there? You think there's the slightest chance Dirk Nowitzki will ever gonna be inducted in the hall of fame?

Just like you downgrade the Europeans, the same thing happens all over the USA. They will never acknowledge or maybe, let, a European player dominate the game. (Those two I mentioned earlier could have notable careers, but certainly would not dominate the game)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbH8ZJ6iiLk

Here's another "dream team" rapist. The best European player in the continent. A PG that rebounds better than centers/power forwards, who shoots better than shooting guards.... That's player development for you. If he was in the NBa 5-6 years ago, he would be back in Greece playing at a 5-6th level team instead of being the best...
(2005-9 Best Defensive player in Euroleague)

Name me a PG in the NBA that gets to do that.
No one does and no one will, because the NBA does not allow that. It's far too simple for such things to happen.

Small guys run with the ball through half court.
PG/SG might drive to the basket and either dunk/layup or give the ball to a big guy to dunk/lay up.
Shooting guards either organize offense or stand in the 3pt line to have a go
Power forwards/centers receive the ball and shoot/dunk
Only the superstars do better than that.

That's the NBA regular season explained in 5 sentences.

Wade>You
07-30-2010, 09:33 PM
Kobe might feel that way, but until European players dominate the NBA over American players, I'll play it safe and disagree with him.

BrotherRedz
07-30-2010, 09:34 PM
Hype of Euroleague probably started when team USA failed in 2004 Olympics this is my guess


Well it isnt the player's fault, it's larry brown, he hated the new generation of players
as you're probably aware, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Amare Stoudemire, and Carmelo Anthony hardly saw any playing time. Reasonable people will tell you that James, Wade, and Anthony were coming off rookie seasons in the NBA, while Stoudemire was coming off an injury-plagued and rather undistinguished second season, at least in comparison to his knockout rookie season.

Thus team morale is failing especially with lots of disputes between new generation and the past

Yeah Odom and Marbury got more playing time than them Seriously a crap coach Larry Brown made USA a laughing stock, thus the rise popularity of euroleague in other non-euro countries

Even the 1st time I've heard Euroleague was in 2005

NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 09:38 PM
Even the 1st time I've heard Euroleague was in 2005

What does that prove to you?

I'm pretty sure you didn't know how soccer's played despite being the most popular sport in the world at one point (be it 94 98 02 06 10 etc)

Euroleague>>>>>>>>>>NBA in the 2000s

If you really want to open your eyes, go find some place to watch the Final Four tournaments of these competitions and compare them to the NBA Finals.

Unless you think basketball is all about powerful dunking.

AI4MVP
07-30-2010, 09:40 PM
i stand by my statemnt 100% the fc barcelona could make the playoffs in the east

lakers4sho
07-30-2010, 09:44 PM
Hype of Euroleague probably started when team USA failed in 2004 Olympics this is my guess

Incorrect. 2004 was the first time people got to see how much improved European basketball is.

No excuses. If you say that American basketball is far superior, then they shouldn't have a problem with a measley "Euroleague" team.


Even the 1st time I've heard Euroleague was in 2005

Ignorance then would be the problem.

NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 09:45 PM
i stand by my statemnt 100% the fc barcelona could make the playoffs in the east

Panathinaikos would make the NBA Finals if they were in the East :cool:
(if we get that shooting guard we need :D)

I remember there was once talk about Maccambi Tel-Aviv, Barcelona and Panathinaikos being part of the NBA somehow. I'm so glad it didn't happen:cool::cool::cool::cool:

Jaji
07-30-2010, 09:52 PM
its true. no raciscm here but if european players had the athletiscm of black guys, European players would dominate basketball

Same could be said for women dominating. They have the fundamentals down pat. But fundamentals don't really help when a guy can simply jump over you.

Hellcrooner
07-30-2010, 09:59 PM
hey Greekie relax

Meneghin , Dlipaglic are in the Hof and dont worry Dir k and pau will BOTH make te hof.

as for nba nto wanting euros in the top 1'0 players?

i dont know bout that i know AMERICAN fans hate it . but well both Dirk and Pau are there i dont cre if they dont ecognise it because i know it is true.

as well as i know tha tin the future som africn kid grown in an europens team youth scheme will be the best player in the league.

lakers4sho
07-30-2010, 09:59 PM
Same could be said for women dominating. They have the fundamentals down pat. But fundamentals don't really help when a guy can simply jump over you.

Ripe vs. Unripe Apples

Apples vs. Oranges

Not the same comparison

AI4MVP
07-30-2010, 10:00 PM
Panathinaikos would make the NBA Finals if they were in the East :cool:
(if we get that shooting guard we need :D)

I remember there was once talk about Maccambi Tel-Aviv, Barcelona and Panathinaikos being part of the NBA somehow. I'm so glad it didn't happen:cool::cool::cool::cool:

man o man i would LOVE it

Jaji
07-30-2010, 10:05 PM
Wow are people really saying the Euro League > the NBA? :facepalm:

Jaji
07-30-2010, 10:09 PM
Ripe vs. Unripe Apples

Apples vs. Oranges

Not the same comparison

They're both dumb comparisons. Europeans aren't gonna take over the NBA and neither are women. But both European players and female players have 1 thing in common: fundamentals. That's what I'm getting at. I'm not really sure what you're talking about.

Hellcrooner
07-30-2010, 10:11 PM
Wow are people really saying the Euro League > the NBA? :facepalm:

the thing is thy are comletley different.

if you want a good HSHOW with big stars getting big numbers, individual math ups in defense no rel rivalry/heat beteen fans a lot of dunks and flashy replays on tv Nba is far superior.

If you want some fundamentaly sound game with teams playng qs teams wiht no player being o feelign more important than the other where theres tension in every game nd fans absoultely loath other teams with loudy courts n a lot of emotion and a lot of tactical display by coaches then yoru ting is eurlege.

I like Both and enjoy both. as much as a man can enjoy both Nfl and Rugby, similar but not even close to be the same thing.

Hellcrooner
07-30-2010, 10:15 PM
They're both dumb comparisons. Europeans aren't gonna take over the NBA and neither are women. But both European players and female players have 1 thing in common: fundamentals. That's what I'm getting at. I'm not really sure what you're talking about.

WORLD will eventually take over the nba.

the pocess has not stopped

20 years ago there were like 10 ROLE players that were foreing in the nba.

15 years ago Petrovic was staring when he got killed ( he woudl ahve been the first allstar ) you got like 1' 0 foreignes beig starters and 30 in the league.


10 years ago Dirk was an allstar and the number of 'players and starters had grown.

5 years ago Parker was an Mvp of the finals Dirk was Mvp pau, manu, ming etc where allstars

No w you got players being used s second option s in back to back winners, pau, allstars , lots of starters and even more players.


in 1 0 years the oeague will have like half of the plyers from other countrys. and half the allsta wl be foreigners

and so will grow more and more.

like in socer you know? everybody plays soccer if you make a top 50 players poll you will have like 40 different countrys represented.

Thats the nba future too

NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 10:27 PM
Wow are people really saying the Euro League > the NBA? :facepalm:

I grew up watching the NBA and ended up preferring the Euroleague.
I know that you grew up watching the NBA and won't substitute that to nothing, but you got no choice either.

As a kid I was part of the lousy basketball academies we had (in Cyprus) but I had role models in MJ, John Stockton, Gary Payton etc.

Now kids have in Europe don't have NBA players as role models.

NBA has gotten worse than then 90s, Europe has improved by a lot in the 2000s, it's just simple equations.

Europeans will never light out the NBA. There will be some very good players, but only those who want the money and fame will come to the NBA.
We are now witnessing the last generation that "dreamt of playing the NBA".

In 10 years, Europeans' opinions on the NBA will decrease. There's still the Kobe factor, that's why I say 10 and not 5.

I dare you to attend a Panathinaikos-Olympiakos game and then hook you on a lie detector. There's no way in hell you'd be disappointed.

Euroleague Final Fours are much better than the recent NBA Finals. Better atmosphere, 4 very balanced teams face each other, games are always close, fans of all 4 teams in the same stadium as well as neutrals, tactics & strategy at its best. Something the NBA is begging to have but at the same time refuses to. You just want dunks and quiet arenas.

Hellcrooner
07-30-2010, 10:31 PM
I grew up watching the NBA and ended up preferring the Euroleague.
I know that you grew up watching the NBA and won't substitute that to nothing, but you got no choice either.

As a kid I was part of the lousy basketball academies we had (in Cyprus) but I had role models in MJ, John Stockton, Gary Payton etc.

Now kids have in Europe don't have NBA players as role models.

NBA has gotten worse than then 90s, Europe has improved by a lot in the 2000s, it's just simple equations.

Europeans will never light out the NBA. There will be some very good players, but only those who want the money and fame will come to the NBA.
We are now witnessing the last generation that "dreamt of playing the NBA".

In 10 years, Europeans' opinions on the NBA will decrease. There's still the Kobe factor, that's why I say 10 and not 5.

I dare you to attend a Panathinaikos-Olympiakos game and then hook you on a lie detector. There's no way in hell you'd be disappointed.

Euroleague Final Fours are much better than the recent NBA Finals. Better atmosphere, 4 very balanced teams face each other, games are always close, fans of all 4 teams in the same stadium as well as neutrals, tactics & strategy at its best. Something the NBA is begging to have but at the same time refuses to. You just want dunks and quiet arenas.

waht intiruge me is what woudl hapen i basketball REALLY take off in terms than it draw enough atraction to the eurloeage that we could make our OWN league CLOSED league with the best 30 teams from europe with high attennaces in order teams could hve 60 million EUROS budgets and compete with nba in salary.

Where you play? nba with the salary cap , you got to go where you are rafted and the team can trade you whre they want.

r for the same or MORE money sign somwhere where theres no salray cap you can sign for how much you want for the team YOU want and you can go to other team simply by tha t team paying money to your curent one ==????

NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 10:31 PM
15 years ago Petrovic was staring when he got killed ( he woudl ahve been the first allstar ) you got like 1' 0 foreignes beig starters and 30 in the league.


I'm sorry to disappoint you but 2 days before his accident he had signed a contract with the team below ;)

dabears2010
07-30-2010, 10:37 PM
http://www.ballineurope.com/us-basketball/nba/kobe-bryant-on-european-basketball-player-development-4203/

In lieu of preparing for the 2010 FIBA World Championship with Team USA (sigh), Kobe Bryant has been visiting China this week as part of a promotional tour the locals are calling “Kobe 24 Live.” (Read: Kobe’s in Asia hocking basketball shoes.)

Putting in an appearance yesterday afternoon at 4.20pm in Changchun, Kobe signed a few autographs and dutifully commented on all things basketball for an adoring public – nothing unusual there.

However, what was unusual – and o so gratifying for fans of European basketball – was Bryant’s shout-out to The Continental method of developing players. From an English-language story running this morning from China’s national press agency Xinhua, Kobe was a bit fancifully quoted through a translator and back again, but the message on several topics was quite clear.

On what other countries need to learn from NBA and American basketball system, Kobe gave a surprising answer, and he said: “I believe that the system works best right now is not the US system, I believe it is the European system. Because they develop basketball players, and they teach them the skills. I think the European system has jumped over US system.”

Now one might argue that this is the viewpoint of an American baller who never played the college game in the ‘States, but might not David Stern & Co. (not to mention the NCAA) take this as a little constructive criticism…? BallinEurope has personally felt for at least a decade that the U.S. is crying out for a proper minor-league basketball system.

_________________________

Can't believe Kobe responded to my created topic faster than any PSD members :clap::clap::clap::clap:

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=515721
:p

GOOD. Maybe Omer Asik will be everything the Bulls hope he is.

NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 10:41 PM
waht intiruge me is what woudl hapen i basketball REALLY take off in terms than it draw enough atraction to the eurloeage that we could make our OWN league CLOSED league with the best 30 teams from europe with high attennaces in order teams could hve 60 million EUROS budgets and compete with nba in salary.


That would kill European basketball imo.
European sports have never had any similarities with the American sports.
Actually the only pouplar sport we share is basketball.
European players would never get paid THAT much. $4m is the maximum salary in Europe now I think.
Teams cannot generate that much money.
A superleague instead of a Euroleague+domestic leagues would be terrible for basketball in Europe. It would kill the international teams as well.

What makes Europe unique compared to the USA is player freedom.
Player decides he joins the team(as a kid)
Player decides if he wants to leave or stay if an offer is on the table
Teams BUY players instead of trade them around like they're cards.


(I played for Apoel Nicosia and Etha Engomi from age of 8 until 13, made a terrible mistake for not continuing, I was quite good but would never reach pro level)

I do agree that the NBA is starting to become multinational.
And that's because it's the only sport they have in common with the rest of the world.
In Europe baseball is considered lame. Rugby/NFL are something that only a few countries are appealed by(to watch or play)
Basketball is all over the place (except England)

Hellcrooner
07-30-2010, 10:45 PM
That would kill European basketball imo.
European sports have never had any similarities with the American sports.
Actually the only pouplar sport we share is basketball.
European players would never get paid THAT much. $4m is the maximum salary in Europe now I think.
Teams cannot generate that much money.
A superleague instead of a Euroleague+domestic leagues would be terrible for basketball in Europe. It would kill the international teams as well.

What makes Europe unique compared to the USA is player freedom.
Player decides he joins the team(as a kid)
Player decides if he wants to leave or stay if an offer is on the table
Teams BUY players instead of trade them around like they're cards.


(I played for Apoel Nicosia and Etha Engomi from age of 8 until 13, made a terrible mistake for not continuing, I was quite good but would never reach pro level)

I do agree that the NBA is starting to become multinational.
And that's because it's the only sport they have in common with the rest of the world.
In Europe baseball is considered lame. Rugby/NFL are something that only a few countries are appealed by(to watch or play)
Basketball is all over the place (except England)

I played for BReogan Lugo youth scheme , tey usualy are in Acb League in spain ( now we are in teh second division) but wa snot good enough, in fact onlh one of my tamates did indeed play some games in the first division.

Mmm thats another difference, domestic leagues have the conet of RELEZGATIOn wich makes things as mcuh interesting in teh bottom of the league than in the top. They shoudl try it instead of tanking to get aplayer in the draft.

La24
07-30-2010, 10:46 PM
Kobe's right imagine all the 2nd and 3rd team players that are such amazing athletes like 40 inch verticals and have amazing speed but no fundamentals??????

HoopsDrive
07-30-2010, 10:55 PM
WORLD will eventually take over the nba.

the pocess has not stopped

20 years ago there were like 10 ROLE players that were foreing in the nba.

15 years ago Petrovic was staring when he got killed ( he woudl ahve been the first allstar ) you got like 1' 0 foreignes beig starters and 30 in the league.


10 years ago Dirk was an allstar and the number of 'players and starters had grown.

5 years ago Parker was an Mvp of the finals Dirk was Mvp pau, manu, ming etc where allstars

No w you got players being used s second option s in back to back winners, pau, allstars , lots of starters and even more players.


in 1 0 years the oeague will have like half of the plyers from other countrys. and half the allsta wl be foreigners

and so will grow more and more.

like in socer you know? everybody plays soccer if you make a top 50 players poll you will have like 40 different countrys represented.

Thats the nba future too

Hmm more like 15 maybe 20 with domination from the 9 superpowers... but I get your point, football is indeed a global sport.

Hellcrooner
07-30-2010, 11:06 PM
Hmm more like 15 maybe 20 with domination from the 9 superpowers... but I get your point, football is indeed a global sport.

9 lol itued ot be 8 guess we finally won our place there this summer :D

shep33
07-30-2010, 11:08 PM
He's actually right... think about what has happend over the past 15 years.

-Dream Team 2 with Hakeem, Charles, etc. were blowing teams out in the Olympics... really no contest.

-2002- Finished 6th in the World Championships

-2004- Fishished 3rd at the Olympics

-2008- Finished 1st at the Olympics... but they went through a tough battle to beat Spain.

The world got good fast, and they know they ai'nt as athletic as NBA players, they teach their fundamentals much more heavily around the world though.

hgtiger32
07-30-2010, 11:15 PM
but don't they play on club sports teams? in the USA you play sports for your school team but i remember one of my teachers, whos as smart as hell btw, tell me that over in Europe they don't have extra ciriculars for their school, they have it with different organizations and such...u know what i mean???

Hellcrooner
07-30-2010, 11:16 PM
He's actually right... think about what has happend over the past 15 years.

-Dream Team 2 with Hakeem, Charles, etc. were blowing teams out in the Olympics... really no contest.

-2002- Finished 6th in the World Championships

-2004- Fishished 3rd at the Olympics

-2008- Finished 1st at the Olympics... but they went through a tough battle to beat Spain.

The world got good fast, and they know they ai'nt as athletic as NBA players, they teach their fundamentals much more heavily around the world though.

you forgot taht the 2000 team barely won the medal.

Lithuani was a lst second 3 pointer failure from gettin them defeated.

Hellcrooner
07-30-2010, 11:19 PM
but don't they play on club sports teams? in the USA you play sports for your school team but i remember one of my teachers, whos as smart as hell btw, tell me that over in Europe they don't have extra ciriculars for their school, they have it with different organizations and such...u know what i mean???

you play ball for fun in the insitiute but if you are chasing a career you get into the organized leagues in each city in one of the teams.

If you are very good you will call the atention of one of the big clubs and put ou in the youth scheme.


Just to make you understand.

Imagine L.a

There would be an L.a league with different ages ranges .

In this league there would be tems, privat teams tht are not related to high schools.

Well Lakers and clippers will have teams in tht leagues for 1-12 kids another for 12-14 kid s another for 14-16 kids and another for 16 -20 teen players and then a secondary Lakers or colippers team playing Pro in a lower division wher eto try tyoung players.

Top talent in L:A and Cali woudl go to that teams, grow up learning in them and Once they are ready they woudl be called up to the MAIN lakers8/ clippers team.


think that for each city in the states.

NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 11:20 PM
but don't they play on club sports teams? in the USA you play sports for your school team but i remember one of my teachers, whos as smart as hell btw, tell me that over in Europe they don't have extra ciriculars for their school, they have it with different organizations and such...u know what i mean???

There are high school teams, but those are just for recreation.

The 'academies' as we call the youth teams are part of teams.

eg think of Barcelona. There's Barcelona B, then there's Barcelona C, then there's Barcelona U15 etc
They play games of their own etc

High school games are just for fun, there are trips to different cities/countries and that's why people like to play there. It's not the route to take. Nobody got fame in Europe by playing in high school, just teams.
And 75% of the kids are assigned to teams. Be it basketball, soccer, volleyball, handball, anything really. I used to be both basketball and soccer at the age of 10-11.

albertc86
07-30-2010, 11:22 PM
STOP!!!!:facepalm:,kobe's being a salesman right now nothing more ...stick to soccer buddy thats what u know lol:D

Doubt it. Team USA hasn't necessarily been running through the competition like in the 90's.

blastmasta26
07-30-2010, 11:23 PM
European development must be better, there are more and more international players in the NBA now, and even with all of our talent, we didn't dominate the Olympics last decade.

HoopsDrive
07-30-2010, 11:31 PM
9 lol itued ot be 8 guess we finally won our place there this summer :D

You guys sure did lol... I still wonder what would have been if it was Brazil v Spain final.... damn you Felipe Melo

Jaji
07-30-2010, 11:34 PM
the thing is thy are comletley different.

if you want a good HSHOW with big stars getting big numbers, individual math ups in defense no rel rivalry/heat beteen fans a lot of dunks and flashy replays on tv Nba is far superior.

If you want some fundamentaly sound game with teams playng qs teams wiht no player being o feelign more important than the other where theres tension in every game nd fans absoultely loath other teams with loudy courts n a lot of emotion and a lot of tactical display by coaches then yoru ting is eurlege.

I like Both and enjoy both. as much as a man can enjoy both Nfl and Rugby, similar but not even close to be the same thing.

If I want to see fundamentals I can watch women's college. I enjoy the superior athletes that the NBA offers. I like that guys can create their own shots. The NBA has fundamentals too but it also has guys who can dominate the game. It's like Neo in the Matrix. And the Matrix is my favorite movie :D.



WORLD will eventually take over the nba.

the pocess has not stopped

20 years ago there were like 10 ROLE players that were foreing in the nba.

15 years ago Petrovic was staring when he got killed ( he woudl ahve been the first allstar ) you got like 1' 0 foreignes beig starters and 30 in the league.


10 years ago Dirk was an allstar and the number of 'players and starters had grown.

5 years ago Parker was an Mvp of the finals Dirk was Mvp pau, manu, ming etc where allstars

No w you got players being used s second option s in back to back winners, pau, allstars , lots of starters and even more players.


in 1 0 years the oeague will have like half of the plyers from other countrys. and half the allsta wl be foreigners

and so will grow more and more.

like in socer you know? everybody plays soccer if you make a top 50 players poll you will have like 40 different countrys represented.

Thats the nba future too

A handful of players out of how many? 95% or more of the NBA is still American players. Americans dominate the Olympics. The NBA is obviously the premier league. The only Americans who play in Europe are the ones who aren't good enough for the NBA. The only Europeans that play in the NBA are the best. And that's not very many. Maybe in 50 to 100 years things will even out. But in 5 to 10 it will pretty much be the same with Dirk and Pau being replaced by Ricky Rubio and someone else. There will still be very few European stars.

NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 11:37 PM
The only Europeans that play in the NBA are the best

Get your facts straight ;)

Jaji
07-30-2010, 11:37 PM
I grew up watching the NBA and ended up preferring the Euroleague.
I know that you grew up watching the NBA and won't substitute that to nothing, but you got no choice either.

As a kid I was part of the lousy basketball academies we had (in Cyprus) but I had role models in MJ, John Stockton, Gary Payton etc.

Now kids have in Europe don't have NBA players as role models.

NBA has gotten worse than then 90s, Europe has improved by a lot in the 2000s, it's just simple equations.

Europeans will never light out the NBA. There will be some very good players, but only those who want the money and fame will come to the NBA.
We are now witnessing the last generation that "dreamt of playing the NBA".

In 10 years, Europeans' opinions on the NBA will decrease. There's still the Kobe factor, that's why I say 10 and not 5.

I dare you to attend a Panathinaikos-Olympiakos game and then hook you on a lie detector. There's no way in hell you'd be disappointed.

Euroleague Final Fours are much better than the recent NBA Finals. Better atmosphere, 4 very balanced teams face each other, games are always close, fans of all 4 teams in the same stadium as well as neutrals, tactics & strategy at its best. Something the NBA is begging to have but at the same time refuses to. You just want dunks and quiet arenas.

HS basketball games can be exciting too but the there's no denying that the NBA has the best players in the world. Period.

Jaji
07-30-2010, 11:39 PM
Get your facts straight ;)

Okay so they're letting garbage Europeans in the NBA now? The 12th man on a Euro team is NOT going to the NBA. If a European comes over you better believe he was a star in Europe. Name one who wasn't...

kblo247
07-30-2010, 11:45 PM
Kobe Bryant does not even believe that. Look at all NBA drafts. American born players dominate.

You can even look at some of the top foreign leagues, the top players over there are American born for the most part. Basketball, football and baseball are ways of life in the US. Inner city youth use those avenues as escape routes. While in Europe for the most part it is soccer.

The guy who spent the better part of his youth learning how to play basketball in Europe doesn't know and believe that they teach you the game better than AAU? :eyebrow:

It isn't about the NBA and the Euroleague. It is about the European basketball camps vs AAU and American camps.

Jaji
07-30-2010, 11:50 PM
The guy who spent the better part of his youth learning how to play basketball in Europe doesn't know and believe that they teach you the game better than AAU? :eyebrow:

It isn't about the NBA and the Euroleague. It is about the European basketball camps vs AAU and American camps.

You do realize Kobe went to HS in the states right? And his dad was in the NBA as well (genes?). Not only that, Kobe said when he came over to the states he had some catching up to do on the court so this is pretty hypocritical of he's talking about his own experience.

NYKalltheway
07-30-2010, 11:52 PM
Okay so they're letting garbage Europeans in the NBA now? The 12th man on a Euro team is NOT going to the NBA. If a European comes over you better believe he was a star in Europe. Name one who wasn't...

The Top 5 are in the NBA:

Dirk Nowitzki
Pau Gasol
Tony Parker
Andrei Kirilenko
Rudy Fernandez

Now Pekovic has joined as well.

Diamantidis is the best European who never even thought of going to the NBA, coz (his own words) his in the best team and has the best coach.

Juan Navarro one of the best offensive players

Dejan Bodiroga who was the best player of the decade in Europe didn't want to go to the NBA
Sarunas Jasikevicius played for 2-3 seasons
Papaloukas didn't come to the NBA
Spanoulis came for 1 year and was extremely disappointed. He expected organisations to be better. Might blame the Rockets for that, but there's no doubt he was worthy.
Khryapa is one of the best Power Forwards in Europe. In the NBA they used him as SF. He's quite clueless on the perimeter, but a beast in the paint.

There are too many players in Europe that could have played in the NBA.
I'm not saying that nobody wants to go there, that would be insane. It's just that the NBA does not know how to acknowledge talent.

Nesterovic has returned to Europe. He's gonna be worse than at least 10 Centers in Europe in a time where centers are rare. That's because he can't post up and he'll get squeezed by the overwhelming defense strategies here.
I'm sure you'd think that Nesterovic would score 15ppg in the "lousy" Euroleague...

Hellcrooner
07-30-2010, 11:55 PM
Okay so they're letting garbage Europeans in the NBA now? The 12th man on a Euro team is NOT going to the NBA. If a European comes over you better believe he was a star in Europe. Name one who wasn't...

mmm thats a tough question.

its not possibe o make perfect sense bout " if you are one of the best in the euroleague you will do well in the nb a and if you are not you got no place in nba"
Nor " any star in nba will do well in europe"

i put you an exampl.

Raja bell, wa s cut by nba team he was "not good enough" went europe to Tau victoria he FAILEd big time in europe....but went bck to nba and became a very solid player.

Jose calderon was just a n Ok euroleague starter Jasikevicius was an absolute star.

guess who is still in the league nd who had to come back.

Hellcrooner
07-30-2010, 11:57 PM
You guys sure did lol... I still wonder what would have been if it was Brazil v Spain final.... damn you Felipe Melo

Wonder not, i know what woud have been.

a Soccer game!!!!!! instead of one team trying to play soccer vs a bunch of Kung fu Fighters.:facepalm:

Jaji
07-31-2010, 12:02 AM
mmm thats a tough question.

its not possibe o make perfect sense bout " if you are one of the best in the euroleague you will do well in the nb a and if you are not you got no place in nba"
Nor " any star in nba will do well in europe"

i put you an exampl.

Raja bell, wa s cut by nba team he was "not good enough" went europe to Tau victoria he FAILEd big time in europe....but went bck to nba and became a very solid player.

Jose calderon was just a n Ok euroleague starter Jasikevicius was an absolute star.

guess who is still in the league nd who had to come back.

I never said any of those things. I said if a European makes it to the NBA he had to be good in Europe. The NBA isn't going overseas to scout benchwarmers. But that doesn't mean they'll be successful and I never said that guarantees success. And the other thing I said is the only American players who go to Europe are those who didn't pan out in the NBA. Raja Bell is a fine example. He's not a star. He's not going to get a max contract. That's the type of American player who goes overseas. Raja Bell or less. Carmelo Anthony is not going to Europe unless he's 38 and still trying to play.

Jaji
07-31-2010, 12:07 AM
The Top 5 are in the NBA:

Dirk Nowitzki
Pau Gasol
Tony Parker
Andrei Kirilenko
Rudy Fernandez

Now Pekovic has joined as well.

Diamantidis is the best European who never even thought of going to the NBA, coz (his own words) his in the best team and has the best coach.

Juan Navarro one of the best offensive players

Dejan Bodiroga who was the best player of the decade in Europe didn't want to go to the NBA
Sarunas Jasikevicius played for 2-3 seasons
Papaloukas didn't come to the NBA
Spanoulis came for 1 year and was extremely disappointed. He expected organisations to be better. Might blame the Rockets for that, but there's no doubt he was worthy.
Khryapa is one of the best Power Forwards in Europe. In the NBA they used him as SF. He's quite clueless on the perimeter, but a beast in the paint.

There are too many players in Europe that could have played in the NBA.
I'm not saying that nobody wants to go there, that would be insane. It's just that the NBA does not know how to acknowledge talent.

Nesterovic has returned to Europe. He's gonna be worse than at least 10 Centers in Europe in a time where centers are rare. That's because he can't post up and he'll get squeezed by the overwhelming defense strategies here.
I'm sure you'd think that Nesterovic would score 15ppg in the "lousy" Euroleague...

Scouting is always hit and miss. Kwame Brown was the top pick overall. Clearly that was a mistake. At some point Nesterovic showed a lot of potential. The NBA is not going to bring any Euro scrubs over here. You have to show some sort of potential for the NBA to take a look at you. 7 footers will get a look just because the NBA LOVES 7 footers but if you're not starting in the Euro league you can forget about the NBA.

NYKalltheway
07-31-2010, 12:13 AM
So much for the Vujacic example then :D

VinceCarter
07-31-2010, 12:49 AM
Doesn't a player have to develop to be considered talented?

If he is talking about player development, European v. US, which he is, he is wrong.

If he is talking about European players making strides in their development he is right.

:facepalm:

NYKalltheway
07-31-2010, 01:25 AM
Heard that the NBA has paid EA Sports a lot of money in order to not go ahead with a Euroleague video game(I think back in 2007) as they would lose a lot of their European game fans to the Euro one. Anyone knows any more details?
(found this out as I was looking for a Euroleague game but there's none available, just one attempt back in 2008 with a manager mode)

lakers4sho
07-31-2010, 01:29 AM
Why are we even comparing leagues when the topic is about development??

The style of basketball is different, resulting from the abundance of athleticism from one end and the lack thereof from the other.

Korman12
07-31-2010, 03:17 AM
Alright, I didn't read every post (a lot of mod-deleted ones), but here's my take:

Focus on development - The easiest comparison to what Kobe was discussing (and he knows what he's talking about) is the way international soccer players are developed. There are two huge reasons why Americans can't compete with the international talent in the world (I have a point, yes); lack of domestic interest and delayed development, which Kobe is talking about.

International players are recruited at much younger ages - talking 12 and 13 years-old - than players here in the US. They're instituted in developmental leagues (not high school) before being permitted to play professionally. Here, it's high school, college and the D-League, which isn't really a developmental league, it's a league for players who can't cut it in the NBA. Athleticism can't be taught, but everything else about the game can, and that's what international specs know very early on. It explains why a 6'10 Nemanja Bjelica can play three positions, and the tallest American PG right now is Shaun Livingston.

THE MTL
07-31-2010, 01:59 PM
European players are very fundamentally sound; HOWEVER American-born players have much better development. American-born players develops a person's swagger, state of mind, confidence, etc. MUCH BETTER than the European system.

European players are usually soft, lack confidence, intangibles, and just the mentality that we American-born players have.

Hellcrooner
07-31-2010, 02:01 PM
European players are very fundamentally sound; HOWEVER American-born players have much better development. American-born players develops a person's swagger, state of mind, confidence, etc. MUCH BETTER than the European system.

European players are usually soft, lack confidence, intangibles, and just the mentality that we American-born players have.

yeah yeah go on dreaming

THE MTL
07-31-2010, 02:05 PM
The Top 5 are in the NBA:

Dirk Nowitzki
Pau Gasol
Tony Parker
Andrei Kirilenko
Rudy Fernandez

Now Pekovic has joined as well.

Diamantidis is the best European who never even thought of going to the NBA, coz (his own words) his in the best team and has the best coach.

Juan Navarro one of the best offensive players

Dejan Bodiroga who was the best player of the decade in Europe didn't want to go to the NBA
Sarunas Jasikevicius played for 2-3 seasons
Papaloukas didn't come to the NBA
Spanoulis came for 1 year and was extremely disappointed. He expected organisations to be better. Might blame the Rockets for that, but there's no doubt he was worthy.
Khryapa is one of the best Power Forwards in Europe. In the NBA they used him as SF. He's quite clueless on the perimeter, but a beast in the paint.

There are too many players in Europe that could have played in the NBA.
I'm not saying that nobody wants to go there, that would be insane. It's just that the NBA does not know how to acknowledge talent.

Nesterovic has returned to Europe. He's gonna be worse than at least 10 Centers in Europe in a time where centers are rare. That's because he can't post up and he'll get squeezed by the overwhelming defense strategies here.
I'm sure you'd think that Nesterovic would score 15ppg in the "lousy" Euroleague...

I STRONGLY disagree with you. If a player can PLAY than he will PLAY! Its no racism or lack of ability to recognize talent. Good rookies in the NBA play major minutes and good europeans play minutes as well.

The guys at Europe beast over there cause of the talent and size level. Those guys who play center at Europe and PF in US must SWITCH because in the US you will get KILLED in the paint.

TALENT LEVEL is a big difference. Look at even our American college players. Michael Beasley at 6' 7" was averaging 26ppg 12rpg. Beasley CANT rebound at all in the NBA.

NYKalltheway
07-31-2010, 03:06 PM
The BIGGEST factor for European players are rules.

Europeans have grown since bball day 1 to play for the team.

In the NBA, the real zone defense is somehow illegal, as there's that 3 seconds rule, rules are not tolerant to physical game... The rules are adjusted for superstars, not superteams.

Every year since 2005 or 2006 I think, European teams go to the States and play a game with an NBA under NBA rules. They can't adjust to the game.

If an NBA team comes to Europe vs one of the top teams, to play under European rules, they'll get their ***** wiped.

Barcelona, Panathinaikos, CSKA Moscow... those three teams can beat at least half of the NBA in their home ground.


Europeans grow to play for the team. In the States, they let the players grow on their own, and great players develop that swag, and lesser players accept to be have a 10-12 mpg role while the others have 35+.

basketfan4life
07-31-2010, 03:34 PM
i totally agree, teaching how to play basketball is like a science in europe,not in the nba...you guys have to watch some european games, you don't get the point from we have the best players point of view...

look it this way,in europe players get to maximize their potential,in u.s they don't...for example,one of the two best players in the world,lebron,doesn't know how to post up or play off the ball,inspite of 7 pro. years in basketball,it is not possibble in europe...i'm sure kobe being this sound fundementally has sthing to do with his years in İtaly.

thekmp211
07-31-2010, 03:56 PM
the onus on athleticism has become so paramount in the sport that in many cases it supercedes talent.

the players are so big, strong, and quick, ESPECIALLY down low, that you cannot expect to compete in the NBA without similarly gifted players.

i am not well versed enough in euroleague to back this statement up, but i am sure there are tons of great "players" over in europe that would just get dusted in the NBA. as a result, they have put the onus on developing skills.

i agree with kobe's specific point though. if you were to take Player X, with middling athletic talent and a potential for a good/great basketball IQ, put a version of him in the NBA and one in the Euroleague, that the euroleague product would be a more skilled player. sounds superior to me.

d00d
07-31-2010, 03:59 PM
"soccer" is the greatest game in the world.


stopped reading there, holy **** :facepalm:

Hellcrooner
07-31-2010, 04:09 PM
the thing her is if dwight hoaward woudl have lived and playe in europe from 12 to 20 years aold ( or played in ncca the 4 years) he woudl have developed SKILLS and fundamentals

Wich would mean he woudl become the REAL NEXT BIG THING of the league unstopableby all means and threatening to enter he top5 ever.

But instea he had incompelte formation in high school and jumped to the pros so they have only focuse in his AMAZING body , that means whe will be a career allstar who may or may not win titles and be somehow not viewed as so much grat some years after retinrinhg ) providing the lack of funamentals does not pay a toll on him once athetlicism is gone and has an wull end of his kareer shawn kemp like:.

thekmp211
07-31-2010, 04:18 PM
the thing her is if dwight hoaward woudl have lived and playe in europe from 12 to 20 years aold ( or played in ncca the 4 years) he woudl have developed SKILLS and fundamentals

Wich would mean he woudl become the REAL NEXT BIG THING of the league unstopableby all means and threatening to enter he top5 ever.

But instea he had incompelte formation in high school and jumped to the pros so they have only focuse in his AMAZING body , that means whe will be a career allstar who may or may not win titles and be somehow not viewed as so much grat some years after retinrinhg ) providing the lack of funamentals does not pay a toll on him once athetlicism is gone and has an wull end of his kareer shawn kemp like:.

presumtuous about how his career will end but i pretty much agree with this.

thekmp211
07-31-2010, 04:19 PM
stopped reading there, holy **** :facepalm:

get over it more people agree with him than you. the facepalm doesn't help, either.

NYKalltheway
07-31-2010, 04:44 PM
European players that make it to the NBA are not always superstars in Europe.

Andrea Bargnani for example. He could have had a decent career in Europe, probably never win the Euroleague though.
Tony Parker was unknown in Europe, but he was only 19 when he left.
Jack Tsakalidis has spent 7 years in the NBA and is totally useless as a player. Maybe 7th or 8th center for Greece in terms of quality!
Marco Belinelli was a good player, but not top. He improved a lot in the NBA.
Darko Milicic was never highly rated in Europe.
Aleksandar Pavlovic was nothing special. 7+ years in the NBA
Primoz Brezec... above average player. Spent 7 years in the NBA
Giorgos Printezis, who is not even a Top 20 Greek player, was drafted in 2007.
Oleksiy Pecherov was unknown in Europe.

Guys coming from Europe that excelled and made it in the NBA include Pau Gasol, Luis Scola, Andrei Kirilenko, Manu Ginobili, Peja Stojakovic etc....


There are also some examples of NBA players that didn't cut it in Europe either.

Tony Delk
Josh Childress
Qyntel Woods (I'm not sure if he was ever good anywhere... he's struggling atm in Europe)

Players who go to the NBA and succeed are:
Big guys
Efficient shooters
Athletic guys

Players who have high basketball IQ are usually too slow for the NBA as they don't have the athleticism needed, best example Sarunas Jasikevicius, a Top 2 Euroleague player of the decade. (Bodiroga, Jasikevicius the Top 2, I feel Diamantidis is the 3rd)

In return, athletic guys with no outside shot, don't cut it in Europe. Josh Childress let's say. Tony Delk was an outstanding shooter, but he had a problem with tactics and pure shooters have no role in European basketball. They are 7th-8th choices in top teams as they are only used in easy games or when a team is desperate and just shoots 3s. He also could not post up or defend a post up play, which is essential for modern European guards.

The NBA is a great school for DEVELOPED European players. But a player cannot learn anything basketball-wise from the NBA. What you guys play now is not basketball. It's not even close to the 90s game.

danidin
07-31-2010, 05:10 PM
player with 0 IQ can't succeed in europe.
will bynum was terrible in maccabi tel aviv


Bodiroga, Jasikevicius the Top 2, I feel Diamantidis is the 3rd.

Anthony Parker was #2 after Sharas IMO.


stopped reading there, holy ****:facepalm:

The beautiful game is not what the fast food continent appreciates

nanablvd
07-31-2010, 05:38 PM
Kobe is saying the truth. With the grueling nba season plus playoffs, the nba is not the best platform that actually develops players' raw talent or specific skill sets when the one-week training camp before the season is what they have only. Most players are fundamentally trained in their youth at college as opposed to a centralized development league that continues to take player development beyond youth time. The States now have so-called NBDL which is pretty good actually but dont have the resources as huge as those European systems.

NYKalltheway
07-31-2010, 07:29 PM
player with 0 IQ can't succeed in europe.
will bynum was terrible in maccabi tel aviv



Anthony Parker was #2 after Sharas IMO.

Heh, Parker was pretty good, but maybe Top 10, definitely not Top2 :p

Dejan Bodiroga - 72,130 votes
Šarūnas Jasikevičius - 70,317 votes
Ramūnas Šiškauskas - 56,687 votes
Arvydas Sabonis - 47,235 votes
Dejan Tomašević - 46,373 votes
Nikola Peković - 43,777 votes
Miloš Vujanić - 40,295 votes
Arvydas Macijauskas - 39,778 votes
Marcus Brown - 39,702 votes
Dimitris Diamantidis - 39,299 votes

Sabonis is there just because of his career.
Bodiroga and Jasikevicius were a joy to watch. Specially when they teamed up in Barcelona.

Official selection: (more realistic)
Dejan Bodiroga
Dimitris Diamantidis
J.R. Holden
Šarūnas Jasikevičius
Trajan Langdon
Juan Carlos Navarro
Theo Papaloukas
Anthony Parker
Ramūnas Šiškauskas
Nikola Vujčić

I can't imagine European teams playing 82 games in the same way the NBA teams do. They wouldn't cope with that.

Mochalman
07-31-2010, 08:05 PM
case and point, brandon jennings!

montazingmvp
07-31-2010, 10:49 PM
stopped reading there, holy **** :facepalm:

yeah god forbid someone has a different opinion than you. :rolleyes:
what an ***...

anyway to the topic...euro players are more fundamentally sound than nba players, but less athletically gifted...this is likely due to the fact that basketball players in europe are for the most part second tier athletes...the best athletes in europe play soccer, not basketball. there are of course exceptions to the rule...

the best of the best generally follow the money...the money is in soccer in europe and the rest of the world

Hellcrooner
07-31-2010, 10:52 PM
yeah god forbid someone has a different opinion than you. :rolleyes:
what an ***...

anyway to the topic...euro players are more fundamentally sound than nba players, but less athletically gifted...this is likely due to the fact that basketball players in europe are for the most part second tier athletes...the best athletes in europe play soccer, not basketball. there are of course exceptions to the rule...

not really.

The problem is the majority of european population is caucasian white.

But as i said earlier we are welcoming a TON of african kids in our youth schemes.

Just wait and see Black Africans raised as basketball players in europe will take over the league in 10 to 15 years.

montazingmvp
07-31-2010, 11:01 PM
not really.

The problem is the majority of european population is caucasian white.

But as i said earlier we are welcoming a TON of african kids in our youth schemes.

Just wait and see Black Africans raised as basketball players in europe will take over the league in 10 to 15 years.

oh come on be real...name me one euro baller with the athleticism of thierry henry, fernando torres, zlatan, these guys' lateral quickness and bursts of speed make rudy fernandez look like a flat footed dork. ...europe has plenty of world class athletes. they just aren't gravitating towards basketball because it doesn't pay the big bucks...

we're trying to figure this same thing out with soccer over here.

Hellcrooner
07-31-2010, 11:03 PM
oh come on be real...name me one euro baller with the athleticism of thierry henry, fernando torres, zlatan, these guys' lateral quickness and bursts of speed make rudy fernandez look like a flat footed dork. ...europe has plenty of world class athletes. they just aren't gravitating towards basketball because it doesn't pay the big bucks...

we're trying to figure this same thing out with soccer over here.

actually soe of the best athletes dont play soccer.

As a matter of fact spins top 2 ahtlets dont play soccer.

Rafa nadal ( tennis) and Alberto contador ( cycling) bot of them are absolute freaks of nature.

montazingmvp
07-31-2010, 11:18 PM
actually soe of the best athletes dont play soccer.

As a matter of fact spins top 2 ahtlets dont play soccer.

Rafa nadal ( tennis) and Alberto contador ( cycling) bot of them are absolute freaks of nature.

rafael nadal i'll give you...of course he has football running through his blood. contador i disagree with...i think its much tougher to get to the top of the footballing world (xavi, villa. torres) than it is to get to the top of the cycling world which is a sport for people who've always had money...cylcing is a suburban sport...

nobody ever really considered lance armstrong one of the greatest athletes here despite blowing away the competition in his respective sport. contador isn't even in armstrong's class. fantastic athlete nevertheless...

but anyway the point stands..the best athletes in europe do not play basketball

RapToronto95
07-31-2010, 11:27 PM
the onus on athleticism has become so paramount in the sport that in many cases it supercedes talent.

the players are so big, strong, and quick, ESPECIALLY down low, that you cannot expect to compete in the NBA without similarly gifted players.

i am not well versed enough in euroleague to back this statement up, but i am sure there are tons of great "players" over in europe that would just get dusted in the NBA. as a result, they have put the onus on developing skills.

i agree with kobe's specific point though. if you were to take Player X, with middling athletic talent and a potential for a good/great basketball IQ, put a version of him in the NBA and one in the Euroleague, that the euroleague product would be a more skilled player. sounds superior to me.

True.............

knickerbockerny
08-01-2010, 12:13 AM
The statement is "European Player Development is Superior to that of the United States" I disagree strongly. Who is currently the best player in the world? Arguably there are two of them Kobe Bryant and Lebron James. Kobe Byant was born and developed his game in the United States. He did move to Italy when he was six, but every summer he would go back to the United States and play in American leagues. When he was 12 he moved back to the states and soon after went to an American highschool to further develop his game.

Lebron James developed his game in the United States. The greatest basketball player ever, Michael Jordan developed in the United States.

The best players at every position in currently in NBA were each developed in the United States. Center Dwight Howard, Power Foward Tim Ducan or Chris Bosh, Small Foward Carmelo Anthony, Lebron James, Kevin Durrant, Shooting Guard Kobe Bryant, D Wade, Point Guard CP3, Deron Williams.

Once the United States began to take world competitions more serious they have yet to lose. The U.S. won FIBA Americas and won the Oympics. They are favorite to win the FIBA worlds with their B team.

The United States U19 team won the FIBA world men's championship last year

To this date there has only been one foreign developed player to win the leagues most valuable player, that was Dirk Nowitski. Hakeem Olajuwon and Steve Nash were both foreign born, but each played four years at American Universities.

Out of the three all NBA first teams last season only three Foreign developed players were included... and I'll give you Andrew Bogut though he went to college in the United States, with that said he was not European developed.

Out of the the two all rookie teams Jonas Jerebko was the only European prospect to make it. The top 5 rookies last season were American developed. There was only one European prospect drafted in the first round this past draft and that was Kevin Seraphin. There are only 2 projected to go in the top 10 in next season's draft (things can change).

The United States also have a very good AAU system were children as young as 8 years old can develop their games. The majority of Junior Highschools and Highshools in the United States have basketball teams. So a child can literally play organized basketball from Autumn to Autumn. Not to mention the countless of local leagues and the abundance of basketball courts in neighborhoods across the country.

I can go on and on... the two players to dominate the NBA summer league John Wall and Cousins are American developed.

Don't get me wrong, Europeans are making major strides and closing the gap in player development, but the gap is still pretty wide if you ask me.

I use the NBA as the basis for most of my argument, because it is hands down the best pro basketball league.

I've noticed that there are a lot of foreign posters in this forum, but I grew up in New York City, basketball is more than just a sport here and in most parts of the U.S. it is a way of life.

knickerbockerny
08-01-2010, 12:43 AM
Im not done American developed players dominated your top league last season, Liga ACB. Three of the top five scorers were American developed, with one the overall leader in scoring. Two of the top five rebounders were American developed. The leader in assist is American developed and a fellow New Yorker from Brooklyn Omar Cook

American developed players were awarded more MVP of the week titles than any other one country. American developed players won more MVP of the month trophies than all European developed players combined. The rising star of the year is American developed. See for yourself!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9310_ACB_season


Is that enough?

knickerbockerny
08-01-2010, 12:55 AM
As for all this more fundamentally sound talk, if you have a pure desire to learn all facets of the game you can become fundamentally sound. Not all American developed NBA players rely of athleticism. Tim Duncan, Chris Paul, Jason Kid, Bradon Roy, DeJuan Blair, etc. The athletics just make the game more fun I guess. Your average fan wants to see a dunk facial more than a perfectly set pick and roll. Just like people rather see a high scoring game rather than an 80-70 final.

Jaji
08-01-2010, 12:59 AM
stopped reading there, holy **** :facepalm:

Dude, soccer is the most popular sport in the world. Not in the US, but in just about every other country except Canada and Russia, where hockey rules, soccer is the sport. Just look at the World Cup coverage. It trumped the NBA playoffs in terms of exposure and that was here in the US. Imagine some South American or African nation. They don't give a rat's :moon: about basketball.

Jaji
08-01-2010, 01:06 AM
the onus on athleticism has become so paramount in the sport that in many cases it supercedes talent.

the players are so big, strong, and quick, ESPECIALLY down low, that you cannot expect to compete in the NBA without similarly gifted players.

i am not well versed enough in euroleague to back this statement up, but i am sure there are tons of great "players" over in europe that would just get dusted in the NBA. as a result, they have put the onus on developing skills.

i agree with kobe's specific point though. if you were to take Player X, with middling athletic talent and a potential for a good/great basketball IQ, put a version of him in the NBA and one in the Euroleague, that the euroleague product would be a more skilled player. sounds superior to me.

I agree with this.

montazingmvp
08-01-2010, 01:31 AM
Dude, soccer is the most popular sport in the world. Not in the US, but in just about every other country except Canada and Russia, where hockey rules, soccer is the sport. Just look at the World Cup coverage. It trumped the NBA playoffs in terms of exposure and that was here in the US. Imagine some South American or African nation. They don't give a rat's :moon: about basketball.

not to nitpick, and i wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying besides this...but i'm not so sure hockey is even more popular than soccer in russia...

lakers4sho
08-01-2010, 01:34 AM
The statement is "European Player Development is Superior to that of the United States" I disagree strongly. Who is currently the best player in the world? Arguably there are two of them Kobe Bryant and Lebron James. Kobe Byant was born and developed his game in the United States. He did move to Italy when he was six, but every summer he would go back to the United States and play in American leagues. When he was 12 he moved back to the states and soon after went to an American highschool to further develop his game.

Lebron James developed his game in the United States. The greatest basketball player ever, Michael Jordan developed in the United States.

The best players at every position in currently in NBA were each developed in the United States. Center Dwight Howard, Power Foward Tim Ducan or Chris Bosh, Small Foward Carmelo Anthony, Lebron James, Kevin Durrant, Shooting Guard Kobe Bryant, D Wade, Point Guard CP3, Deron Williams

All you named are superstars who also dedicate their time to improve on their game, not to mention off the chart athleticism, basketball IQ, and dedication.

What about the average joe basketball player?

knickerbockerny
08-01-2010, 01:43 AM
All you named are superstars who also dedicate their time to improve on their game, not to mention off the chart athleticism, basketball IQ, and dedication.

What about the average joe basketball player?

I did that because we are talking about development, and Kobe's statement and of European development being superior (key word) to that in the United States, I named the superstar players for a reason, to show that it is not.

As for the average joe ball player being able to develop they are all over the map. The Lakers had a few... the Luke Waltons of the world. The Wally Svzerbiaks (mispelled), Michael Redd's etc.

Coach K does a brilliant job developing average players at Duke, turning them into winners.

JayW_1023
08-01-2010, 05:31 AM
Actually, "soccer" as you wanna call it, is more popular in most countries. (in Poland it's volleyball, in Lithuania it's basketball and so on)

It's more popular because you don't need to be a freak of nature to become great. The best player in the world at the moment is undersized (5ft6 maybe)

Basketball IQ in Europe is greater than the NBA.
The NBA in the past decade has been more about marketing and more of a show than a sport.

I just found the 2006 Greece Vs USA game, and the USA were soooo one-dimensional. They had 4 scorers plus Hinrich in, while Greece was having a rage with drives and post ups.
The NBA is relying its greatness with go-to guys. There's no doubt the best players in the world are American. Since forever.

But players use only their athleticism and talent. They rarely develop other skills, as in the NBA it's useless. Basketball is a team sport. The NBA has transformed into one-man or two-man shows. Defense is a team effort. But not in the NBA! Here you rate players as good/bad defenders etc. You rarely see someone whose name is not in the elite being double marked. There's no effort to help your teammate in defense mostly.

Also the NBA's rotating is pretty much stuck. Europe developed that. Back in the 90s in Europe, there would be players having 35/40 minutes play time and some had 1 or 2 minutes only. Now every team uses rotation, most of them effectively as well. Many teams use 10-12 players each game, with the least amount of minutes is probably 8-10

The biggest advantage Europe has over the NBA is the fact that they can take a kid from 10 years old (give or take a few years) and develop him until he's 17-18 and use him with the first team. The NBA does not have "basketball schools" in this way.

A player has to play in high school, then might move to a college in the other side of the country, then enters the draft and gets picked by somewhere in the middle. This messes up some players, but it could prove helpful to many as well.

But the key factor is loyalty. There's no loyalty in the NBA. That's because there's no player freedom. Player's can't have a choice as there's the draft, he has to be traded instead of having buy outs to request transfers etc.
In Europe, you are born in one place, root for that team from the moment you opened your eyes, dream of playing there, manage to do so, and you are part of that team until you retire.
In the NBA even the damn teams move to other places!!! How can that be possible?? And people call players disloyal for leaving franchises for others where they seize the moment of the current NBA state, which is earn more money!

System is way better than the current US system.
In the 90s, European basketball was mediocre. Now, I prefer watching the Euroleague Top 16 round and on, than the NBA Playoffs. When I was 8 years old(1997) I could stay awake until 5 am to watch the Bulls beat the Jazz in game 6. Now I only watch the Knicks when they're on and the weekly NBA programs just to be informed. There's no excitement. It's all about marketability.

All in all, in the NBA you have to be the best in order to get credit. In Europe we love our role players, there's no "6th man" and there's no "starters". There are 2-3 star players and the rest are role players. Now that's basketball.

Look out for Splitter, Pekovic, Mozgov and watch out for 2011 and on, coz Europe's going to earn some NBA money ;)


Good post. I agree that even though International players lack the raw talent and athletic prowess of American players, they are far superior in fundamentals and understanding of the game.

Plus it's much rarer to see a selish player from Euroleagues than in the NBA. It explains why a guy like Manu has accepted coming off the bench almost his entire career.

mlisica19
08-01-2010, 06:48 AM
Kobe is not saying that the European trained players are better than the Americans. Their training is just better, in the sense that they focus on the intelligence of the game over the athleticism. Look at the way Kobe plays, he grew up in Italy and trained there. He has the experience of both worlds and can plain out tell you that it is exceeding that of Americas. They focus on playmaking and shooting, the smarts of the game and how to play SMART. In America its all about, whether they mean to or not, individualism. Pass it over to the best player and let him to do his job, you do yours. In Europe they train them to work together. How to play defense and offense as a team.

I am in Europe right now, I come here alot for family and vaca. I play basketball here, forget the fact that theres no take backs and its a quicker pick up game here just understand that these kids are far better than the kids i play with back at home.

They dont miss shots, they know how to use their body know matter what size they are and they know how to get open quicker. And these are just kids who are born on a small island, they tranined a little. Same age and most likely near or the same amount of training my friends back home have. Out of 10 kids i can think of off the top of my head, only one can truly excel here. And as for these european kids going to the states, they will have no problem shutting any team i can possibly make out of the kids i graduated with lol.

What do you expect, the best players in Europe start young and from then on thats their life. Not for their school, only for their city. These kids here start off on PRO teams just on their U-10 team. the best kids move through their ranks and some by the age of 16 make pros lol

JayW_1023
08-01-2010, 08:10 AM
Fundamentals can prolong a players prime. The NBA's two biggest winners, Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan, are living proof.

Hellcrooner
08-01-2010, 12:11 PM
The statement is "European Player Development is Superior to that of the United States" I disagree strongly. Who is currently the best player in the world? Arguably there are two of them Kobe Bryant and Lebron James. Kobe Byant was born and developed his game in the United States. He did move to Italy when he was six, but every summer he would go back to the United States and play in American leagues. When he was 12 he moved back to the states and soon after went to an American highschool to further develop his game.

Lebron James developed his game in the United States. The greatest basketball player ever, Michael Jordan developed in the United States.

The best players at every position in currently in NBA were each developed in the United States. Center Dwight Howard, Power Foward Tim Ducan or Chris Bosh, Small Foward Carmelo Anthony, Lebron James, Kevin Durrant, Shooting Guard Kobe Bryant, D Wade, Point Guard CP3, Deron Williams.

Once the United States began to take world competitions more serious they have yet to lose. The U.S. won FIBA Americas and won the Oympics. They are favorite to win the FIBA worlds with their B team.

The United States U19 team won the FIBA world men's championship last year

To this date there has only been one foreign developed player to win the leagues most valuable player, that was Dirk Nowitski. Hakeem Olajuwon and Steve Nash were both foreign born, but each played four years at American Universities.

Out of the three all NBA first teams last season only three Foreign developed players were included... and I'll give you Andrew Bogut though he went to college in the United States, with that said he was not European developed.

Out of the the two all rookie teams Jonas Jerebko was the only European prospect to make it. The top 5 rookies last season were American developed. There was only one European prospect drafted in the first round this past draft and that was Kevin Seraphin. There are only 2 projected to go in the top 10 in next season's draft (things can change).

The United States also have a very good AAU system were children as young as 8 years old can develop their games. The majority of Junior Highschools and Highshools in the United States have basketball teams. So a child can literally play organized basketball from Autumn to Autumn. Not to mention the countless of local leagues and the abundance of basketball courts in neighborhoods across the country.

I can go on and on... the two players to dominate the NBA summer league John Wall and Cousins are American developed.

Don't get me wrong, Europeans are making major strides and closing the gap in player development, but the gap is still pretty wide if you ask me.

I use the NBA as the basis for most of my argument, because it is hands down the best pro basketball league.

I've noticed that there are a lot of foreign posters in this forum, but I grew up in New York City, basketball is more than just a sport here and in most parts of the U.S. it is a way of life.


THe fact that you have howard and bosh in your list instead of Pau and Dirk tells it all.

Howard is more dominant bcause he is a freak of nature but in terms of being a basketball player in terms of Knowledge of the game, iq, usage of body, post moves, passing, creating plays, handling the ball, shooting etc etc he holds no chance against Pau
Why? pau has been trained into fundamentals , Howard didnt thats the difference.

Bosh? is more athletic than Dirk, not bad fundamentals but WORSE than dirks.

Oh and bout "not trying enough" and only caring for the international game recently........Dont give me that **** you bearly won with your BEST team against spain.

Im half sure al the best players renounced to play this summer because they KNOW is just a matter of time they lose a game and dont win the gold.


Wich is stupid sinc this summer team usa should have no problem winning it all given Pau, Paeker, Dirk, Manu, Scola wont be playing for their natioanl teams.

kurivaimu
08-01-2010, 12:24 PM
Kobe is right
He is talking about the overall quality of the players. In the US, its mostly athleticism, and thats the main factor why us (mostly black) dominate europeans. But skillwize, and game IQ-wise, Europeans are much etter.
European big man for instance can drible, shoot, pass. While US big man are just muscular, jump high, and rebound well. Look at the centers in the NBA today. No skills at all. Nada.

knickerbockerny
08-01-2010, 12:48 PM
THe fact that you have howard and bosh in your list instead of Pau and Dirk tells it all.

Howard is more dominant bcause he is a freak of nature but in terms of being a basketball player in terms of Knowledge of the game, iq, usage of body, post moves, passing, creating plays, handling the ball, shooting etc etc he holds no chance against Pau
Why? pau has been trained into fundamentals , Howard didnt thats the difference.

Bosh? is more athletic than Dirk, not bad fundamentals but WORSE than dirks.

Oh and bout "not trying enough" and only caring for the international game recently........Dont give me that **** you bearly won with your BEST team against spain.

Im half sure al the best players renounced to play this summer because they KNOW is just a matter of time they lose a game and dont win the gold.


Wich is stupid sinc this summer team usa should have no problem winning it all given Pau, Paeker, Dirk, Manu, Scola wont be playing for their natioanl teams.

You say they barely won, but they did win, they did beat Spain! If you want a morale victory then fine, but morale victories don't win Gold medals.

We are talking about overall development being superior. We are not only talking about fundamental development, which is half of the game. Athleticism happens to be the other half. One hand washes the other an combines to make a great player.

Through your descriptions you make it seem as if American development circumvents basketball knowledge and relies solely on athletics. And that is not true. Your average 10 year old American ball player can not dunk, nor and he run a 4.4 40 yard dash, so he has to be taught how to get to the hoop and what to do if he can't. If not he won't stand a chance.

Though Howard lacks a great fundamental game, he is still considered the best center in the game. The reason why Pau is even in the discussion is because he plays the front court with another 7 footer (giving him the size advantage at power forward on any given night) and Kobe Bryant.

Dirk Nowitzki is a great player and I'm going to leave it at that. But answer me this question, how many Dirk Nowitzki's are in the NBA, with his game and talent? How many of them are back home in Europe with a similar superior talent level as Dirk?

The statement about players not wanting to play fearing they would lose is pure foolery. Who plays the game thinking they are going to lose the game? Definitely not Kobe, Lebron, Wade, an co. These guys think they can win every game. If that was the case Durant, Rose and co. won't play either.

Hellcrooner
08-01-2010, 01:03 PM
You say they barely won, but they did win, they did beat Spain! If you want a morale victory then fine, but morale victories don't win Gold medals.

We are talking about overall development being superior. We are not only talking about fundamental development, which is half of the game. Athleticism happens to be the other half. One hand washes the other an combines to make a great player.

Through your descriptions you make it seem as if American development circumvents basketball knowledge and relies solely on athletics. And that is not true. Your average 10 year old American ball player can not dunk, nor and he run a 4.4 40 yard dash, so he has to be taught how to get to the hoop and what to do if he can't. If not he won't stand a chance.

Though Howard lacks a great fundamental game, he is still considered the best center in the game. The reason why Pau is even in the discussion is because he plays the front court with another 7 footer (giving him the size advantage at power forward on any given night) and Kobe Bryant.

Dirk Nowitzki is a great player and I'm going to leave it at that. But answer me this question, how many Dirk Nowitzki's are in the NBA, with his game and talent? How many of them are back home in Europe with a similar superior talent level as Dirk?

The statement about players not wanting to play fearing they would lose is pure foolery. Who plays the game thinking they are going to lose the game? Definitely not Kobe, Lebron, Wade, an co. These guys think they can win every game. If that was the case Durant, Rose and co. won't play either.

just wait for the gifted atheltic black africans we are teaching the game in europe right now. :o

NYKalltheway
08-01-2010, 01:04 PM
Dirk Nowitzki is a great player and I'm going to leave it at that. But answer me this question, how many Dirk Nowitzki's are in the NBA, with his game and talent? How many of them are back home in Europe with a similar superior talent level as Dirk?

Talent-wise, there are probably none.

BUT, there are a lot of Nowitzki-type players in Europe.

Bigs who can shoot.

The NBA only helps the great players. A fringe player cannot expect to develop his skills to a maximum level in the NBA. Why? First of all because he will not get any playing time, or just limited time. In Europe, if you're part of a team, you play. Only in major tournaments and championship finals the lesser players are not used. The more playing time, the better.

knickerbockerny
08-01-2010, 01:06 PM
Kobe is right
He is talking about the overall quality of the players. In the US, its mostly athleticism, and thats the main factor why us (mostly black) dominate europeans. But skillwize, and game IQ-wise, Europeans are much etter.
European big man for instance can drible, shoot, pass. While US big man are just muscular, jump high, and rebound well. Look at the centers in the NBA today. No skills at all. Nada.

Tim Duncan, David Lee, Carlos Boozer, Brad Miller, Chris Bosh, Brook Lopez, Channing Frye, etc. etc. would also fit into that category of big men being able to dribble, shoot, pass and have high basketball IQ.

The overall theme with many posters agreeing with Kobe seems to be that American developed players lack skill and rely on athleticism to score and be effective/dominant. And that could not be further from the from the truth.

Another thing your average Euroleague center is about 6'10" 230lbs, so comparing them to the NBA's huge centers does not tell the truth. You have to compare them to NBA power forwards and some small forwards, because that is the positions they play when they come over.

Hellcrooner
08-01-2010, 01:08 PM
btw knirebockery is usa system is superior in developing talent.

answere me a question.

Why is there no a SINGLE WHITE AMERICAN (USA CITIZEN) in the top 15 players of the league?

knickerbockerny
08-01-2010, 01:16 PM
just wait for the gifted atheltic black africans we are teaching the game in europe right now. :o

Hey man I'm a fan of basketball, I can't wait. Hopefully they flood the market and create more parity in the NBA. I'm tired of seeing the same teams win, and the same teams in the lottery.

With that said Americans are going to keep developing their skills because they love the game here

NYKalltheway
08-01-2010, 01:19 PM
Another thing your average Euroleague center is about 6'10" 230lbs, so comparing them to the NBA's huge centers does not tell the truth. You have to compare them to NBA power forwards and some small forwards, because that is the positions they play when they come over.

Agree on that.

But there are two implications:

1) NBA coaches do not know how to use these players, as their many advantage is knowing the game. Something that is not considered a great trait for players who are not PG. You average Center in Euroleague knows how to give great passes, knows how to post up, can grab rebounds, can block shots, can shoot from distance, can dunk, and usually they are surrounded by 2-3 players in the paint when they have the ball...

2) There are many examples of players coming to the NBA and playing out of position. They are not useless, but they were developed for European basketball. Unless you have a coach like Obradovic(Panathinaikos coach) you won't have players who play in three positions. Panathinaikos players are unique as they tend to play in 3 positions each, using mismatch situations, using 3 guards on court almost every game in the last 8 or so years.
Players in Europe are considered undersized for the NBA, so you can't expect Rudy Fernandez who is a traditional 2-3 in Europe to play as a SF, or be great in the SG position.
The NBA is not flexible with these things. In Europe you may see one guard, 2 forwards and 2 centers on court, or 3 guards and 2 forwards.. It's a very tactical game, and everyone adapts to that. In the NBA you have your typical 5 players.

There's a reason why the USA team struggles from 2000 and on against Europeans and internationals in general. They never faced multiple strategies in a single game and they don't know how to respond to that. Not even players who have a mere 4 years in college know these stuff.

*The best basketball "teachers" are Serbs, or Croats/Slovenians/Montenegrin(former Yugoslavia), Spaniards have great youth now, Italians are bringing it back, Greeks and French dominate the youth championships and there's the northern former Soviet nations(Russia, Lithuania...). There are other countries who develop some players like Turkey, Latvia etc but they are not traditional powers.

Nowitzki is a rare example. Germany does not have a basketball tradition. If he was Russian or something I wouldn't be so surprised he turned out so good.

* just to inform the topic what we mean by European basketball

knickerbockerny
08-01-2010, 01:30 PM
btw knirebockery is usa system is superior in developing talent.

answere me a question.

Why is there no a SINGLE WHITE AMERICAN (USA CITIZEN) in the top 15 players of the league?

What does that have to do with development? But I'll take a shot in the dark and try my best to answer this question. Caucasian Americans on average grow up in better communities then their African American counterparts. There are a plethora of sports they can afford to play and other avenues in which they can take to better themselves. So they can literally play 2-3 sports for an entire year instead of one. More choices in regards to sports they want to play, or they can afford to have a good education. (?)

Basketball like soccer(football) abroad is more of an inner city sport. The inner cities for the most part are dominated by other races, one being African Americans. All that is needed to play the game is shoes, a hoop and a ball, which is plentiful in the inner cities. The right skills may lead to a free college education to help better your current situation.

knickerbockerny
08-01-2010, 01:50 PM
Agree on that.

But there are two implications:

1) NBA coaches do not know how to use these players, as their many advantage is knowing the game. Something that is not considered a great trait for players who are not PG. You average Center in Euroleague knows how to give great passes, knows how to post up, can grab rebounds, can block shots, can shoot from distance, can dunk, and usually they are surrounded by 2-3 players in the paint when they have the ball...

2) There are many examples of players coming to the NBA and playing out of position. They are not useless, but they were developed for European basketball. Unless you have a coach like Obradovic(Panathinaikos coach) you won't have players who play in three positions. Panathinaikos players are unique as they tend to play in 3 positions each, using mismatch situations, using 3 guards on court almost every game in the last 8 or so years.
Players in Europe are considered undersized for the NBA, so you can't expect Rudy Fernandez who is a traditional 2-3 in Europe to play as a SF, or be great in the SG position.
The NBA is not flexible with these things. In Europe you may see one guard, 2 forwards and 2 centers on court, or 3 guards and 2 forwards.. It's a very tactical game, and everyone adapts to that. In the NBA you have your typical 5 players.

There's a reason why the USA team struggles from 2000 and on against Europeans and internationals in general. They never faced multiple strategies in a single game and they don't know how to respond to that. Not even players who have a mere 4 years in college know these stuff.

*The best basketball "teachers" are Serbs, or Croats/Slovenians/Montenegrin(former Yugoslavia), Spaniards have great youth now, Italians are bringing it back, Greeks and French dominate the youth championships and there's the northern former Soviet nations(Russia, Lithuania...). There are other countries who develop some players like Turkey, Latvia etc but they are not traditional powers.

Nowitzki is a rare example. Germany does not have a basketball tradition. If he was Russian or something I wouldn't be so surprised he turned out so good.

* just to inform the topic what we mean by European basketball

Your right the NBA is not as flexible as the Euroleagues. But just as when the Americans had to adapt to a Euro type of game when they went over for international competitions. Euro players have to adapt when they make a transition over here.

For example the guard, two forward, two center strategy would not always work in the NBA. I say that because the majority of teams to don't play like that. In American development one is almost locked in to one position and plays it for the rest of his basketball career. So that person is can become a genius at that position, instead of good at two. That is why Brandon Roy starts ahead of Rudy Fernandez. And because of the size and athleticism being better in the NBA than the Euros, Rudy Fernandez would struggle to defend the Lerbon James, Carmelo Anthony's, Durant, Granger etc. at the small forward spot.

But when the US goes over there where everyone is playing the same game, they can't in force there will on them, so they must match up different. We can't feed the post, which is prominant in the US game. Because if we do that the Euro team would just shorten the possessions by using all the clock and shooting threes. That how Greece beat the US in 2004. The US tried to feed Tim Duncan in the post while Greece was shortening the game and shooting.

Mike D as you my fellow Knick fan knows uses an European style and tries to play one guard, with multiple forwards, but as you can see that style has yet to win a title, or for Mike D get him into the championship game. I definitely hope that changes. :cool:

NYKalltheway
08-01-2010, 01:51 PM
Basketball like soccer(football) abroad is more of an inner city sport.

No it's not

NYKalltheway
08-01-2010, 01:54 PM
That how Greece beat the US in 2004. The US tried to feed Tim Duncan in the post while Greece was shortening the game and shooting.

Mike D as you my fellow Knick fan knows uses an European style and tries to play one guard, with multiple forwards, but as you can see that style has yet to win a title, or for Mike D get him into the championship game. I definitely hope that changes. :cool:

Greece beat the USA in 2006, and Duncan was not there. Only Howard was the big guy but team USA used him for just a little and instead had Lebron, Wade, Melo, Hinrich and J.Johnson fielded together :D That's just weird.

Mike D's style is not common in Europe. Pick & roll, yes. But his tendencies are not European. More like NCAA experiments. His style could work in Europe, but I wouldn't count on it.

knickerbockerny
08-01-2010, 02:09 PM
Greece beat the USA in 2006, and Duncan was not there. Only Howard was the big guy but team USA used him for just a little and instead had Lebron, Wade, Melo, Hinrich and J.Johnson fielded together :D That's just weird.

Mike D's style is not common in Europe. Pick & roll, yes. But his tendencies are not European. More like NCAA experiments. His style could work in Europe, but I wouldn't count on it.

Yea your right, Duncan was not there in 06, he was in 04 and I meant the lost to Argentina in the semis. They shortened the game, and a US team which normally went over 100 scored only 81.

In 06, though the team was built to mirror the Euro style, the program was still in its infancy.

All I know is that Mike D has to make his system work lol!

knickerbockerny
08-01-2010, 02:18 PM
No it's not

Former German Coach jurgen klinsmann talks about this issue on ESPN and in this article. Though he is not the end all be all in regards to football knowledge, he is very wise in that subject.

http://www.dailysoccerfix.com/2010/7/2/1549267/klinsmanns-thoughts-on-u-s-soccers

NYKalltheway
08-01-2010, 02:23 PM
Then Klinsmann said something that takes Bradley off the hook a little. He talked about U.S. Soccer’s dysfunctional developmental system, one that emphasizes club soccer and the chase for college scholarships over true professional development. Remember, this man knows soccer and he knows the United States, having lived here for the better part of 12 years now.

"This is the only country in the world that has the pyramid upside down. You pay for having your kid play soccer," he said. "Because your goal is not to have your kid become a professional soccer player, your goal is that your kid gets a scholarship in college, which is complete opposite rest of the world."

Oh, do go on, Klinsy …

"We all [came] out of moderate families and fought our way through … so we need to keep this hunger throughout out life. I compare it to basketball here, because I look at these guys and they are coming from inner cities. So we need to find ways to connect, however that could be, to connect with Hispanics, to connect with everybody in the soccer environment in the U.S., and to get kids who are really hungry, to get kids on technical level to perform, and what I mean is first touch

He's talking about football (soccer) being played in inner cities in the USA, not the rest of the world. In Europe EVERYONE kicks a ball with other kids in parks, or professional youth teams or whatever.

Hellcrooner
08-01-2010, 02:24 PM
What does that have to do with development? But I'll take a shot in the dark and try my best to answer this question. Caucasian Americans on average grow up in better communities then their African American counterparts. There are a plethora of sports they can afford to play and other avenues in which they can take to better themselves. So they can literally play 2-3 sports for an entire year instead of one. More choices in regards to sports they want to play, or they can afford to have a good education. (?)

Basketball like soccer(football) abroad is more of an inner city sport. The inner cities for the most part are dominated by other races, one being African Americans. All that is needed to play the game is shoes, a hoop and a ball, which is plentiful in the inner cities. The right skills may lead to a free college education to help better your current situation.

on the contrary,

american white players have the same phisical tools than european white players.

they are no match for black players athelticism.

the only thing that llows the dirks, manus, paus and pejas to compete with much more phisically gifted players is their FUNDamentals and their skills.

If those black american players were equally gifted in fndamentals and skills euro whiteys woudlnet be abke to compete with them

Thats why KObe or DUncan are GENIUS players, because they have both the body nd the skills.

What happens to american white players'?

In hs and Ncaa coacehs focus on develioping what nba wants now, wich is atheltic players who are strong and can jump.

So they negletc the teaching of fundamentals and skills in their programs.
As a result white american players underacheve their portentials beause no one teaches them properly how ti play the game baseing on skills instead of phisics.
SHoudl the parets of those kids send them to europe to learn teh fundamentals while growing up they woudl beome mch better layers and be able to compete with balck americans .

Of course i f the system in usa teqcehd the balck americans on how to play wiht skill o and fundamentals there woudl be MUCH LESS european players in the league and with less prominnet roles.

Thats how things were back there in the 80s afroamerican players HAD fundamentals so there hwas a TRUE barrier between nba player and eropen play.

They started focusing on athetlics in the 90s, ad obssesed about it in this decade.

Asa result only a handfull of amerian players have real both things, skills and phisic, and that are the top dogs.

SOmetimes the phisics are so freak that ithey overcome their tactical limitations nd become stars, like howard or Lebron.

But the average afroamerican player has athelticism but nO SKILL, thats wha opens space for euros.

And if coaches wre not chauvinistic or nknew the game better there wodl be MUCH MORE euros with more important roles.

But they are biaed and go focused on athletics too.

NYKalltheway
08-01-2010, 02:32 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_Hairston

Malik Hairston has recently signed for Siena. In 2-3 seasons he will be a Top 5-10 Euroleague player imo, if he stays there

JayW_1023
08-02-2010, 04:47 AM
Yea your right, Duncan was not there in 06, he was in 04 and I meant the lost to Argentina in the semis. They shortened the game, and a US team which normally went over 100 scored only 81.

In 06, though the team was built to mirror the Euro style, the program was still in its infancy.

All I know is that Mike D has to make his system work lol!

Apart from Duncan that 2004 team was poorly constructed with knuckleheads and talented up and comers. That wasn't a team in the literal sense.

Back in the Dream Team days even NBA superstars valued fundamentals and had better understanding of the game. That's how they were able to mop the field with the competition.

Todays kids idolize Jordan for his individual highlights, but they forget Jordan mastered the fundamentals. He could rebound, score in the post, defend, pass and play within a system.

Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan, so if anyone has a keen observation on polishing skills it's the most skilled perimeter player himself.

JayW_1023
08-02-2010, 04:49 AM
Once their athletic gifts will fade, players like Dwight and LeBron will become ordinary after their primes if they don't continue to work on their skills.

Kobe and Duncan are the only two superstars in the NBA who have mastered the fundamentals. Logically they share 9 titles between them as the focal points of their respective teams. This is NO coincidence.

valade16
08-02-2010, 05:17 AM
How many non-American hall of famers are there? You think there's the slightest chance Dirk Nowitzki will ever gonna be inducted in the hall of fame?

:confused:

Is this a joke??!! Nowitzki will be a first ballot HOFer, he won an MVP for freakin' sake, if there was some conspiracy against foreign players, why would they give him an MVP?:confused:

Or why let the spurs with GINOBILI and PARKER win their three titles?

Maybe no euro players being in the HOF has less to do with there being some giant US conspiracy to not give euro players recognition and more to do with the fact that there is a mandatory wait time after you retire before you can get in the Hall and since most Euro players started playin in the NBA not too long ago, no one has reached the time requirements...

I'd say maybe that was a ******** post but I don't need the maybe, that was one ******** post.

valade16
08-02-2010, 05:19 AM
just wait for the gifted atheltic black africans we are teaching the game in europe right now. :o

why yessa masta', we alls get right on that.

Seriously, how can that NOT be banned for being blatantly racist...

valade16
08-02-2010, 05:26 AM
Kobe is right
He is talking about the overall quality of the players. In the US, its mostly athleticism, and thats the main factor why us (mostly black) dominate europeans. But skillwize, and game IQ-wise, Europeans are much etter.
European big man for instance can drible, shoot, pass. While US big man are just muscular, jump high, and rebound well. Look at the centers in the NBA today. No skills at all. Nada.

It's not that they are better skillwise, it's just they develop DIFFERENT skills. For instance your big men are taught the fundamentals of shooting, however all of your big men are absolute trash (with the exception of the Gasols) at post game offense. I understand it's because in Euro it's not how they play, but it doesn't mean the US guy suddenly isn't as talented skillwise, he's just got different skills.

Just like on man defense. Euros play lots more zone, as a result most of the time there on ball defense is terrible. I'm a blazers fan and Rudy Fernandez is a TERRIBLE on the ball defender (though in Europes defense, Batum is really good at it).

And as for the rebounding that is just not true. If Euro players are so much fundamentally better at rebounding how come all the best rebounders in the league are AMERICAN?

valade16
08-02-2010, 05:31 AM
Alright, I didn't read every post (a lot of mod-deleted ones), but here's my take:

Focus on development - The easiest comparison to what Kobe was discussing (and he knows what he's talking about) is the way international soccer players are developed. There are two huge reasons why Americans can't compete with the international talent in the world (I have a point, yes); lack of domestic interest and delayed development, which Kobe is talking about.

International players are recruited at much younger ages - talking 12 and 13 years-old - than players here in the US. They're instituted in developmental leagues (not high school) before being permitted to play professionally. Here, it's high school, college and the D-League, which isn't really a developmental league, it's a league for players who can't cut it in the NBA. Athleticism can't be taught, but everything else about the game can, and that's what international specs know very early on. It explains why a 6'10 Nemanja Bjelica can play three positions, and the tallest American PG right now is Shaun Livingston.

That's not true. There are countless private schools whose sole job is to give these guys the minimum education they have to while developing their sport talents to the maximum. I mean there are National rankings for MIDDLE SCHOOLERS.

Trust me, American players that can ball are recruited at ridiculously young ages. Heck, some 13 year old just committed to USC for football lol...

magichatnumber9
08-02-2010, 06:51 AM
Until I see his transcript if there is one then I refuse to comment. So much is lost in translation.

Niro
08-02-2010, 07:19 AM
Actually, "soccer" as you wanna call it, is more popular in most countries. (in Poland it's volleyball, in Lithuania it's basketball and so on)

It's more popular because you don't need to be a freak of nature to become great. The best player in the world at the moment is undersized (5ft6 maybe)

Basketball IQ in Europe is greater than the NBA.
The NBA in the past decade has been more about marketing and more of a show than a sport.

I just found the 2006 Greece Vs USA game, and the USA were soooo one-dimensional. They had 4 scorers plus Hinrich in, while Greece was having a rage with drives and post ups.
The NBA is relying its greatness with go-to guys. There's no doubt the best players in the world are American. Since forever.

But players use only their athleticism and talent. They rarely develop other skills, as in the NBA it's useless. Basketball is a team sport. The NBA has transformed into one-man or two-man shows. Defense is a team effort. But not in the NBA! Here you rate players as good/bad defenders etc. You rarely see someone whose name is not in the elite being double marked. There's no effort to help your teammate in defense mostly.

Also the NBA's rotating is pretty much stuck. Europe developed that. Back in the 90s in Europe, there would be players having 35/40 minutes play time and some had 1 or 2 minutes only. Now every team uses rotation, most of them effectively as well. Many teams use 10-12 players each game, with the least amount of minutes is probably 8-10

The biggest advantage Europe has over the NBA is the fact that they can take a kid from 10 years old (give or take a few years) and develop him until he's 17-18 and use him with the first team. The NBA does not have "basketball schools" in this way.

A player has to play in high school, then might move to a college in the other side of the country, then enters the draft and gets picked by somewhere in the middle. This messes up some players, but it could prove helpful to many as well.

But the key factor is loyalty. There's no loyalty in the NBA. That's because there's no player freedom. Player's can't have a choice as there's the draft, he has to be traded instead of having buy outs to request transfers etc.
In Europe, you are born in one place, root for that team from the moment you opened your eyes, dream of playing there, manage to do so, and you are part of that team until you retire.
In the NBA even the damn teams move to other places!!! How can that be possible?? And people call players disloyal for leaving franchises for others where they seize the moment of the current NBA state, which is earn more money!

System is way better than the current US system.
In the 90s, European basketball was mediocre. Now, I prefer watching the Euroleague Top 16 round and on, than the NBA Playoffs. When I was 8 years old(1997) I could stay awake until 5 am to watch the Bulls beat the Jazz in game 6. Now I only watch the Knicks when they're on and the weekly NBA programs just to be informed. There's no excitement. It's all about marketability.

All in all, in the NBA you have to be the best in order to get credit. In Europe we love our role players, there's no "6th man" and there's no "starters". There are 2-3 star players and the rest are role players. Now that's basketball.

Look out for Splitter, Pekovic, Mozgov and watch out for 2011 and on, coz Europe's going to earn some NBA money ;)

great post:clap:

xbrackattackx
08-02-2010, 10:33 AM
This thread is a plethora of ignorance towards Euro Ball. They have great fundamentals and nice skill sets. They train them all around so that it's not really "you play this, I play that".

But Fundamentals only get you so far...Stockton great fundamental guy not athletic really no ring.

Tim Duncan-Fundamental and Started playing basketball late in life. Also very athletic multiple rings.

I think players who are the best need to be Fundamental sound, Athletic and not affraid to trust the team they are on.

Hellcrooner
08-02-2010, 10:45 AM
:confused:

Is this a joke??!! Nowitzki will be a first ballot HOFer, he won an MVP for freakin' sake, if there was some conspiracy against foreign players, why would they give him an MVP?:confused:

Or why let the spurs with GINOBILI and PARKER win their three titles?

Maybe no euro players being in the HOF has less to do with there being some giant US conspiracy to not give euro players recognition and more to do with the fact that there is a mandatory wait time after you retire before you can get in the Hall and since most Euro players started playin in the NBA not too long ago, no one has reached the time requirements...

I'd say maybe that was a ******** post but I don't need the maybe, that was one ******** post.

hey dude take a look at some HOF list in wikipedia.

There are already some European Players in the BASKETBAL HALL OF FAME, there are women too.

MAybe one day here wil eb something called the Nba Fall of Fame , but for the moment the Naismith recognise acievement in any basketbal expression in teh world, Ncaa, Nba, Fiba, Wnba and i guess even Wheelchair basket.

So there are some euros already.

And you can bet you arse Manu or Pau would be lokcs for it based simply on thei INTERNATIONAL career.
Add rings to that and it makes it a 100% chance and 95% of getting it at first ballot

Raoul Duke
08-02-2010, 10:53 AM
Well, I guess the European players are training more effectively for international play? That's what I got outta this, which I guess implies that they're training less effectively for NBA play.

I'm still an NBA fan first and foremost, so... moot point.

JayW_1023
08-02-2010, 11:09 AM
This thread is a plethora of ignorance towards Euro Ball. They have great fundamentals and nice skill sets. They train them all around so that it's not really "you play this, I play that".

But Fundamentals only get you so far...Stockton great fundamental guy not athletic really no ring.

Tim Duncan-Fundamental and Started playing basketball late in life. Also very athletic multiple rings.

I think players who are the best need to be Fundamental sound, Athletic and not affraid to trust the team they are on.

Duncan isn't athletic at all, even while in his prime. His longivity is purely because he is so polished fundamentally. Same with Kobe at the SG position. 9 titles between them. Do the math.

NYKalltheway
08-02-2010, 12:55 PM
NBA is not suited for basketball in the last few years really. It has turned into an athletic circus.

Whoever jumps higher is one of the best
Whoever shoots more 3s, is one of the best.

Zone defense is "illegal" in the NBA, which is absurd. The 3 seconds rule gives the edge to the superstars. Coast is clear to go one on one and finish off with a fascinating dunk.
Heck, the zone defense used to really be illegal back in the days I think.
This has turned the regular season into an exhibition period.

Also, the pressure in the States is much bigger on kids.

You're in high school tournaments, you HAVE TO WIN.
You're in college tournaments, you HAVE TO WIN.

In European teams:
You're in U14 team, you play for fun, best kids advance
You're in U16 team, you try to make it to the U18 as fast as possible by improving
You're in the U18 team, you try to improve the aspects that will take you to the pros.
You're in the U20-21 team, you improve your physical abilities as much as possible to compete with the stronger and faster pros.

USA it's all about instant success.
In Europe, nobody goes to watch these kids play. Their motivation is to become a pro and play in filled arenas, while their 17year old American counterparts have 5.000 people watching them play, while only the parents and relatives of the players watch kids play in Europe.

Instant success= no developing what needs to be

xbrackattackx
08-02-2010, 01:04 PM
Duncan isn't athletic at all, even while in his prime. His longivity is purely because he is so polished fundamentally. Same with Kobe at the SG position. 9 titles between them. Do the math.

Gee Kobe and Duncan were never athletic always survived on Fundamentals. No Kobe got Fundamental sound in the 2000's he was a Dunker, take it to the hoop kinda player not like he is now. Duncan wasn't a athletic beast down low like Dwight but he could hold his on.

NYKalltheway
08-02-2010, 01:07 PM
Gee Kobe and Duncan were never athletic always survived on Fundamentals. No Kobe got Fundamental sound in the 2000's he was a Dunker, take it to the hoop kinda player not like he is now. Duncan wasn't a athletic beast down low like Dwight but he could hold his on.

Kobe started winning when he made his game less NBA-esque, that's what he means

ballpd05
08-02-2010, 01:11 PM
European players are more skilled because they have sports academies and they preach more fundamentals. American players have a tendency to be more athletic. Of course this is just a generalization and there are exceptions to that, but sometimes superior athleticism just trumps skills.

But imagine if a guy like Tyrus Thomas had moves like Luis Scola... Or a guy like Tyson Chandler had the skills of like a Bargnani. If you look across the board European guys fundamentals and footwork (offensively) are generally better than U.S. players.

xbrackattackx
08-02-2010, 02:43 PM
Kobe started winning when he made his game less NBA-esque, that's what he means

I agree Kobe started winning when he grew up, Kobe was never my favorite laker until he decided to grow up.I said I think that Fundamentals and Athleticism to a Degree is important. You need to have a nice B-Ball IQ,Skill set and Handles but you can't be out of shape and the last one down the court either.

valade16
08-02-2010, 04:18 PM
hey dude take a look at some HOF list in wikipedia.

There are already some European Players in the BASKETBAL HALL OF FAME, there are women too.

MAybe one day here wil eb something called the Nba Fall of Fame , but for the moment the Naismith recognise acievement in any basketbal expression in teh world, Ncaa, Nba, Fiba, Wnba and i guess even Wheelchair basket.

So there are some euros already.

And you can bet you arse Manu or Pau would be lokcs for it based simply on thei INTERNATIONAL career.
Add rings to that and it makes it a 100% chance and 95% of getting it at first ballot

Your only furthering my point. read what I quoted, guy thought there was a conspiracy against Euro players in the HOF and that Nowitzki wasn't going to make it. Obviously wrong.

valade16
08-02-2010, 04:22 PM
European players are more skilled because they have sports academies and they preach more fundamentals. American players have a tendency to be more athletic. Of course this is just a generalization and there are exceptions to that, but sometimes superior athleticism just trumps skills.

But imagine if a guy like Tyrus Thomas had moves like Luis Scola... Or a guy like Tyson Chandler had the skills of like a Bargnani. If you look across the board European guys fundamentals and footwork (offensively) are generally better than U.S. players.

Why do people keep perpetuating this MYTH?! It's not that they're more skilled, it's that their skilled in different areas!!

If Chandler had Bargnani's skills he would then become just as USELESS in the post as he is. Not to mention his ability to rebound would fall into the toilet.

You eruo-ball lovers seem to value passing ability and shooting over post up game and rebounding. But I don't.

you need both on a team to win consistently

VinceCarter
08-02-2010, 05:15 PM
The beautiful game is not what the fast food continent appreciates

ummmm last time I checked Mexico was apart of North America :eyebrow:

NYKalltheway
08-02-2010, 05:34 PM
Your only furthering my point. read what I quoted, guy thought there was a conspiracy against Euro players in the HOF and that Nowitzki wasn't going to make it. Obviously wrong.

Yeh sorry it was me.
I didn't intend to make it seem like a conspiracy theory thing :p

NYKalltheway
08-02-2010, 05:53 PM
Why do people keep perpetuating this MYTH?! It's not that they're more skilled, it's that their skilled in different areas!!

If Chandler had Bargnani's skills he would then become just as USELESS in the post as he is. Not to mention his ability to rebound would fall into the toilet.

You eruo-ball lovers seem to value passing ability and shooting over post up game and rebounding. But I don't.

you need both on a team to win consistently

Bargnani was nothing special back in Europe.

Brandon Jennings was below average back in Europe.

Josh Childress was below average back in Europe(you might see an improved version in the NBA this season)

Post up game is extremely important in Europe for EVERYONE. You even see poing guards posting up!
Who says rebounding isn't important? It's one of the most important things in basketball, be it streetball, be it Euroleague or NBA.

As for shooting, it's more of an American thing eventually.
European shooters are great, but not all Europeans can shoot. Those that can, are the ones that are considered great. And shooting is a major advantage. Points from anywhere from anyone. You will only see open shots unless time runs off in Europe.
Whereas in the States a guy will shoot just coz it's his thing, or coz he can't pass, despite having 15 more seconds left.

Posting up in Europe is far more challenging than in the NBA. You have 2 or 3 players surrounding the big guy who tries to post up, and that's usually how open shots are made. Big guy is skilled enough to pass the balll outside for a better opportunity.

NBA stars have talent that is not taught. You can't teach strength. You can teach someone how to use his weaker body against someone who's stronger(look also for martial arts, anyone can beat larger people). But that's just sometimes. The stronger guy will dominate in the end.
You can't teach someone how to jump over the rim! You can practice for 10 years and still not manage to outjump the others coz it's not in your genes.

Posting up, footwork etc is something I even know from the few years of basketball I had with the youth ranks in Cyprus, a nation that has never excelled for any sport, and is not as passionate for basketball as let's say Greece, Italy, and now Spain (from the Mediterranean nations, who are football-"soccer" fans)

I can honestly say that if I was Dwight Howard's size, I could outperform him in the paint with the skills I've acquired back then.

There some people from former Yugoslavia and former Soviet Union that people honestly said that they were born with a basketball.
Moves that even MJ didn't have in his game.

NBA rules are also favorable for the strong, fast and more athletic players compared to Europe's game, where set games are like religion. Transition games are a spectacle over here, a rarity. Players and coaches know how to play on the transition, but they also know that it's risky and it might lose them the game.

Dirk Nowitzki, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Rasho Nesterovic, now Pau Gasol maybe, all can shoot midrange shots and even threes.
Could you imagine if Shaquille O'Neal had that in his game?
Or Patrick Ewing back then? That would mean lots of trouble for Michael Jordan's legacy, wouldn't it? :p
Or think Dwight Howard now. He would kill Dirk on the paint, but can he match up with him when Dirk can shoot from anywhere he wants?

It's not a fight against which is better.
It takes a blind person to not see which one is better.
The point is, is America ready to improve?
The upcoming FIBA World Championship will ring many bells. The Lithuanians 2000 & 2004, 2006 Greece, 2008 Spain. That was just the beginning.
Apart from Yugoslavia and Soviet Union, the rest of Europe started developing their basketball between 1987-1996.
They will never be more athletic than the American home-grown players, but I've heard somewhere that the NBA has paid a lot of money to EA Sports to refuse to develop a Euroleague basketball game as they would lose their European market! That's from a freakin video game.

Wade>You
08-02-2010, 05:58 PM
Kobe says the sky is purple, everyone here would believe it.

Someone needs to remind Kobe which country is pumping out the most Superstars, All-Stars, and Starters in the NBA today.

NYKalltheway
08-02-2010, 06:20 PM
and how many foreigners are there?
and which of these foreigners had a European training?

Someone needs to remind his self that the USA is on the other side of the world for some people, and that's there's around 100 quality basketball players overseas

Hellcrooner
08-02-2010, 06:59 PM
thre are tens more of european who could be on the league taking the places of the ck watsons, jordan farmars and tony allens of the nba
The thing is, good europeans player that are projected to be 9-12 roatition players in the nba generally prefer to stay home and earn MUCH more money than go to the nba and rot their career.s

xbrackattackx
08-02-2010, 07:47 PM
thre are tens more of european who could be on the league taking the places of the ck watsons, jordan farmars and tony allens of the nba
The thing is, good europeans player that are projected to be 9-12 roatition players in the nba generally prefer to stay home and earn MUCH more money than go to the nba and rot their career.s

I can agree with this. Nba wants to underpay these talented guys just to sit there.

Call me crazy but I think Sasha would be a beast on a team were he could be involved more. He needs to play to keep his confidence up, when phil just benches him cause he makes a mistake it makes him confidence drop and play safer and not the way he should play. He should be able to shoot more cause he is a stroker when he has him groove.

NYKalltheway
08-02-2010, 07:50 PM
maybe the foreigners in the NBA have trouble settling, communicating(English is no one's first language except England's who don't play basketball), as well as have to adjust to new rules

ntat
08-02-2010, 08:05 PM
Vujačić began his professional career at the age of 16, playing with Snaidero Udine of Italy. His father Vaso Vujačić is a Serbian basketball coach.

Vujačić was also a member of the Slovenian junior national team. He won a silver medal at the 2002 European Junior Championship

I guess this isnt a development in Europe for you

Seems you are the one that has no idea of what you're talking about as your eyes are set on the NBA only

looks more like u just googled his wikipedia.

rabzouz 96
08-02-2010, 09:03 PM
Bargnani was nothing special back in Europe.

Brandon Jennings was below average back in Europe.

Josh Childress was below average back in Europe(you might see an improved version in the NBA this season)

Post up game is extremely important in Europe for EVERYONE. You even see poing guards posting up!
Who says rebounding isn't important? It's one of the most important things in basketball, be it streetball, be it Euroleague or NBA.

As for shooting, it's more of an American thing eventually.
European shooters are great, but not all Europeans can shoot. Those that can, are the ones that are considered great. And shooting is a major advantage. Points from anywhere from anyone. You will only see open shots unless time runs off in Europe.
Whereas in the States a guy will shoot just coz it's his thing, or coz he can't pass, despite having 15 more seconds left.

Posting up in Europe is far more challenging than in the NBA. You have 2 or 3 players surrounding the big guy who tries to post up, and that's usually how open shots are made. Big guy is skilled enough to pass the balll outside for a better opportunity.

NBA stars have talent that is not taught. You can't teach strength. You can teach someone how to use his weaker body against someone who's stronger(look also for martial arts, anyone can beat larger people). But that's just sometimes. The stronger guy will dominate in the end.
You can't teach someone how to jump over the rim! You can practice for 10 years and still not manage to outjump the others coz it's not in your genes.

Posting up, footwork etc is something I even know from the few years of basketball I had with the youth ranks in Cyprus, a nation that has never excelled for any sport, and is not as passionate for basketball as let's say Greece, Italy, and now Spain (from the Mediterranean nations, who are football-"soccer" fans)

I can honestly say that if I was Dwight Howard's size, I could outperform him in the paint with the skills I've acquired back then.

There some people from former Yugoslavia and former Soviet Union that people honestly said that they were born with a basketball.
Moves that even MJ didn't have in his game.

NBA rules are also favorable for the strong, fast and more athletic players compared to Europe's game, where set games are like religion. Transition games are a spectacle over here, a rarity. Players and coaches know how to play on the transition, but they also know that it's risky and it might lose them the game.

Dirk Nowitzki, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Rasho Nesterovic, now Pau Gasol maybe, all can shoot midrange shots and even threes.
Could you imagine if Shaquille O'Neal had that in his game?
Or Patrick Ewing back then? That would mean lots of trouble for Michael Jordan's legacy, wouldn't it? :p
Or think Dwight Howard now. He would kill Dirk on the paint, but can he match up with him when Dirk can shoot from anywhere he wants?

It's not a fight against which is better.
It takes a blind person to not see which one is better.
The point is, is America ready to improve?
The upcoming FIBA World Championship will ring many bells. The Lithuanians 2000 & 2004, 2006 Greece, 2008 Spain. That was just the beginning.
Apart from Yugoslavia and Soviet Union, the rest of Europe started developing their basketball between 1987-1996.
They will never be more athletic than the American home-grown players, but I've heard somewhere that the NBA has paid a lot of money to EA Sports to refuse to develop a Euroleague basketball game as they would lose their European market! That's from a freakin video game.

no it wouldnt. theyre big guys who play near the basket, they dont need anything from that. it just forces them away from the basket and possible offensive rebounds. in-the-paint-shots are high percentage shots and thats whats their bread and butter.

thekmp211
08-02-2010, 09:30 PM
thre are tens more of european who could be on the league taking the places of the ck watsons, jordan farmars and tony allens of the nba
The thing is, good europeans player that are projected to be 9-12 roatition players in the nba generally prefer to stay home and earn MUCH more money than go to the nba and rot their career.s

good point. why be sarunas jasikevicius here when you could be sarunas jasikevicius in europe?

NYKalltheway
08-02-2010, 09:52 PM
Aleks Maric, the new Panathinaikos center, has stated upon his arrival that he's not thinking of moving to the NBA and he wants to remain with Panathinaikos for 5-10 years.
He started his career at age 16 in Australia, after he signed for a basketball academy and stayed there for 3 years.

He's Australian-Serb who was part of the University of Nebraska in NCAA until 2-3 years ago.

Q: It was expected you would go to the NBA, why didn't it happen?
Maric: It wasn't for me. It was my destiny to go to college there, then move to Spain, then Partizan and now Panathinaikos for, who knows, 5 to 10 years.

Q: So you don't have an NBA dream?
Maric: I'm not thinking about the NBA, just Europe. Just here

Q: Do you at least watch any NBA games?
Maric: Basketball is in Europe. If you want to see people running and jumping, then you watch the NBA.

He was voted best in the All-Euroleague in 2010 is his debut season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeDvUnZveLs

The NBA will start missing out on great talents and Europe is gonna be stacked over the next decade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeDvUnZveLs

Devoted this post to him as he was a real phenom this year, much better than any other Center in Europe, yet it's Mozgov(6th or 7th last season) and Pekovic(2nd or 3rd last season) who move to the NBA

Jaji
08-02-2010, 10:23 PM
Anyone who plays basketball and says they don't want to play in the NBA is lying. Unless English isn't their first language and they're confusing "don't want" with the word "can't."

montazingmvp
08-02-2010, 10:27 PM
Anyone who plays basketball and says they don't want to play in the NBA is lying. Unless English isn't their first language and they're confusing "don't want" with the word "can't."

arrogance in its grandest form...

thekmp211
08-02-2010, 10:35 PM
Anyone who plays basketball and says they don't want to play in the NBA is lying. Unless English isn't their first language and they're confusing "don't want" with the word "can't."

do you really believe that?

hellcrooner made a great point. the tony allens and jordan farmars of the nba could be replaced by european talent. but why?

nba teams often times have to spend more money on european players, so why bother? it is the ones with potential that are intriguing.

the best european players could play here, but they would be role players. i would much rather be a star for 15 years and make millions rather than jumping to the nba and -maybe- catching on.

there are of course exceptions. but the reason so many highly drafted euros have stunk it up and looked bad is
a. they were drafted way too high by bad teams looking for dirk/tp
b. they were drafted on potential, as has been stated many times already the veteran stars often elect to stay.

i often agree with you jaji but not this time

Jaji
08-02-2010, 10:49 PM
do you really believe that?

hellcrooner made a great point. the tony allens and jordan farmars of the nba could be replaced by european talent. but why?

nba teams often times have to spend more money on european players, so why bother? it is the ones with potential that are intriguing.

the best european players could play here, but they would be role players. i would much rather be a star for 15 years and make millions rather than jumping to the nba and -maybe- catching on.

there are of course exceptions. but the reason so many highly drafted euros have stunk it up and looked bad is
a. they were drafted way too high by bad teams looking for dirk/tp
b. they were drafted on potential, as has been stated many times already the veteran stars often elect to stay.

i often agree with you jaji but not this time

How much do they make in the Euroleague?

Jaji
08-02-2010, 10:51 PM
arrogance in its grandest form...

How is that arrogant? Buy a effin dictionary.

Jaji
08-02-2010, 10:54 PM
do you really believe that?

hellcrooner made a great point. the tony allens and jordan farmars of the nba could be replaced by european talent. but why?

nba teams often times have to spend more money on european players, so why bother? it is the ones with potential that are intriguing.

the best european players could play here, but they would be role players. i would much rather be a star for 15 years and make millions rather than jumping to the nba and -maybe- catching on.

there are of course exceptions. but the reason so many highly drafted euros have stunk it up and looked bad is
a. they were drafted way too high by bad teams looking for dirk/tp
b. they were drafted on potential, as has been stated many times already the veteran stars often elect to stay.

i often agree with you jaji but not this time

But isn't that essentially what I'm saying? That they're not good enough? Sure they may be able to "catch on" but they won't be good enough to get much playing time. So it's not "I don't want to go to the NBA." It's "I don't want to sit on the bench in the NBA."

thekmp211
08-02-2010, 11:47 PM
But isn't that essentially what I'm saying? That they're not good enough? Sure they may be able to "catch on" but they won't be good enough to get much playing time. So it's not "I don't want to go to the NBA." It's "I don't want to sit on the bench in the NBA."


I mean they can be good role, players, maybe starters. I'm too lazy to go back for the exact quote but someone noted very successful players european players who were stars who chose not to go over. these guys could be rotation players in the league, maybe some starters. if you took all of the talent in the euroleague and dumped it into the nba, it would make a significant dent into team rosters.

the talent doesn't peak as high or run as deep as the nba, but across the stronger european leagues there's definitely some nba talent that is choosing/has chosen to not come over.

valade16
08-02-2010, 11:56 PM
do you really believe that?

hellcrooner made a great point. the tony allens and jordan farmars of the nba could be replaced by european talent. but why?

nba teams often times have to spend more money on european players, so why bother? it is the ones with potential that are intriguing.

the best european players could play here, but they would be role players. i would much rather be a star for 15 years and make millions rather than jumping to the nba and -maybe- catching on.

there are of course exceptions. but the reason so many highly drafted euros have stunk it up and looked bad is
a. they were drafted way too high by bad teams looking for dirk/tp
b. they were drafted on potential, as has been stated many times already the veteran stars often elect to stay.

i often agree with you jaji but not this time

What does that say about those players? :eyebrow:

valade16
08-02-2010, 11:57 PM
Q: Do you at least watch any NBA games?
Maric: Basketball is in Europe. If you want to see people running and jumping, then you watch the NBA.

TRANSLATION: "all of my supposedly superior skills aren't good enough against the best Bball players on earth"...

valade16
08-02-2010, 11:59 PM
I mean they can be good role, players, maybe starters. I'm too lazy to go back for the exact quote but someone noted very successful players european players who were stars who chose not to go over. these guys could be rotation players in the league, maybe some starters. if you took all of the talent in the euroleague and dumped it into the nba, it would make a significant dent into team rosters.

the talent doesn't peak as high or run as deep as the nba, but across the stronger european leagues there's definitely some nba talent that is choosing/has chosen to not come over.

I agree, there are many good Euro league players that could for sure play in the NBA, but overall the majority of the best Basketball players on earth come from the US.

Europe has made TREMENDOUS strides in their development of talent and that shouldn't be underestimated, but don't say for one second that European basketball has surpassed NBA basketball.

thekmp211
08-03-2010, 12:20 AM
accident

thekmp211
08-03-2010, 12:23 AM
I agree, there are many good Euro league players that could for sure play in the NBA, but overall the majority of the best Basketball players on earth come from the US.

Europe has made TREMENDOUS strides in their development of talent and that shouldn't be underestimated, but don't say for one second that European basketball has surpassed NBA basketball.

of course. my point is that given the fact that the euroleague has an inherit disadvantage i talent, it's methods of developing players are more fundamentally sound and thus superior to the us.

the corruption runs so deep at the aau and ncaa levels that its almost a bastardization of amatuer basketball, but that is another discussion for another day..

Hellcrooner
08-03-2010, 12:50 AM
im not talking bout the best.


The best 20 polayers in europe can be future nba stars, future nba starters or future nba sixth men ( talking bout the youngestars like rubio bjelica etc).

than you have like 20 or 30 veterans that never went to nba or that are back from it that could ahve been sixth or 7th men in the nba maybe with luck staretrs but either didnt get to be there or decided not to go or never where given a good chance( macijausaks, jasikevicius)

and then you ahve like 100 players that could be there in a nba ben playing 10 mpg but decide to stay in europe HOME in a place they know with an idiom they know with amoe relevant place in teir teams , earning form TWICE to four times what the typycal 9-12 men on te bench earns in usa .
In fact a TON of AMERICAN players that see they are going too be sticied ino a 9-12 men role decide to come here for more money.

some of them even develop their game and are ready to be back in some years wiht a better role ( charlie bells, Antohy parker, Marucs Hauslipa, Pj Brown etc)

BradyIsTheMan12
08-03-2010, 01:00 AM
Anyone who plays basketball and says they don't want to play in the NBA is lying. Unless English isn't their first language and they're confusing "don't want" with the word "can't."

Agreed. That's not arrogance, that's the truth.

BoltLakerPadre
08-03-2010, 01:11 AM
stopped reading there, holy **** :facepalm:

The fundamentals of flopping are now a part of the NBA. Thank you Europe, thank you soccer players, thank you the world's sport aka the game most often decided by a players ability to roll around on the ground crying like a little bit**.

Hellcrooner
08-03-2010, 01:13 AM
Agreed. That's not arrogance, that's the truth.

Any starter in eroleague can be Scalabrine.
But they dont WANT to be 8000 miles from home to play 3 minutes per game and earn 4 times less the money.

valade16
08-03-2010, 01:49 AM
Any starter in eroleague can be Scalabrine.
But they dont WANT to be 8000 miles from home to play 3 minutes per game and earn 4 times less the money.

how much are these guys making over there? You make it sound like NBA players are paid like scrubs, yet most are making what over 4 million a year? How much more are Euro league guys getting?

montazingmvp
08-03-2010, 02:29 AM
The fundamentals of flopping are now a part of the NBA. Thank you Europe, thank you soccer players, thank you the world's sport aka the game most often decided by a players ability to roll around on the ground crying like a little bit**.

flopping has existed in the nba since the 60's...probably before that...it has nothing to do with soccer and nothing to do with europeans. take your bias and ethnocentrism elsewhere...most people here aren't dumb enough to believe your ********.

its a basic strategy that has existed for a long time. stop trying to blame the "foreigners" all the time.

montazingmvp
08-03-2010, 02:32 AM
How is that arrogant? Buy a effin dictionary.

thinking that everyone in the world wants to play in america's league...this may come as a surprise to you but many athletes in europe take pride in elevating the game in their home country and not moving thousands of miles to play limited minutes or not at all.

im fully aware of the meaning of arrogance. and you fit the bill

Hellcrooner
08-03-2010, 02:45 AM
I remmeber a certain dude who was a fully american W-A-S-P flopping like hell before a single european put foot int he league.

Mr WIllaim Lambieer.

NYKalltheway
08-03-2010, 06:27 AM
double post

NYKalltheway
08-03-2010, 06:27 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xl8K_snWH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D1WjZV50Lo

Greece-USA

Where "scrubs" who are not in the NBA beat the so called Dream Team.

Lithuania-USA, a team with unknown players to the USA, beat the so called Dream Team

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp4_qohHTuI (general video of Greece's comebacks, a team that has no NBA players I repeat)

Coz when you play here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAIXBxVPeCc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtQAJH_JoXM

....you don't want to move here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM2ntmd0YEA

People who have never seen/lived European basketball should simply ask or search the internet for some stuff(ie youtube).

It's getting annoying hearing that only scrubs play in Europe.

How many drafted players are STILL in Europe I wonder?
European BASKETBALL, has improved dramatically over the years. The best recent Euroleague years were 2000-2004 and 2008-ongoing.

European BASKETBALL, has more BASKETBALL to offer than the NBA. The NBA has transformed into a show, pure entertainment. Almost no passion, almost no heat between fans, it's as if it's soulless. You have to thank David Stern & co for that.

Does anyone care to answer why the NBA is the only basketball organization that does not undergo anti-doping testing?

Jaji
08-03-2010, 08:47 AM
I mean they can be good role, players, maybe starters. I'm too lazy to go back for the exact quote but someone noted very successful players european players who were stars who chose not to go over. these guys could be rotation players in the league, maybe some starters. if you took all of the talent in the euroleague and dumped it into the nba, it would make a significant dent into team rosters.

the talent doesn't peak as high or run as deep as the nba, but across the stronger european leagues there's definitely some nba talent that is choosing/has chosen to not come over.

My freshman year of HS I played on the JV team. I hated JV because the coach would sub 5 players at a time and made sure everyone played in every game. One of my buddies on that JV team asked what was more important winning or playing? I said winning. Some of the garbage guys on the team said playing. I think this is the same idea. Star in the Euro league, where you're guaranteed minutes (kind of like that JV team), or sit on the bench in the NBA? Staying in Europe means they're opting for the less talented league where they're guaranteed shine. That would be like me staying on the JV team as a sophomore. As it turned out, coach did keep me on JV as a sophomore (so I could see some floor time) but I also rode the bench on the varsity squad. Varsity was the NBA, JV was the Euroleague. See what I'm saying?

Jaji
08-03-2010, 08:53 AM
thinking that everyone in the world wants to play in america's league...this may come as a surprise to you but many athletes in europe take pride in elevating the game in their home country and not moving thousands of miles to play limited minutes or not at all.

im fully aware of the meaning of arrogance. and you fit the bill

That's exactly my point. If they were good enough, they wouldn't be playing limited minutes. I'm the farthest thing from arrogant American you'll ever find. Hell, I don't even like this damn country!

thekmp211
08-03-2010, 10:58 AM
My freshman year of HS I played on the JV team. I hated JV because the coach would sub 5 players at a time and made sure everyone played in every game. One of my buddies on that JV team asked what was more important winning or playing? I said winning. Some of the garbage guys on the team said playing. I think this is the same idea. Star in the Euro league, where you're guaranteed minutes (kind of like that JV team), or sit on the bench in the NBA? Staying in Europe means they're opting for the less talented league where they're guaranteed shine. That would be like me staying on the JV team as a sophomore. As it turned out, coach did keep me on JV as a sophomore (so I could see some floor time) but I also rode the bench on the varsity squad. Varsity was the NBA, JV was the Euroleague. See what I'm saying?

sure. but in your scenario there was only one jv team and one varsity team. the scales were pronounced and extreme.

it is a little lame to see jasikevicius and the like light up europe and then flop here for a year and give up. some guys don't like the style change, some don't like the fact that they have to prove themselves again. but, i'd say that every nba team could upgrade 2-4 roster spots if they could add any european talent in the euroleague. some starters, some solid rotation guys, some end-of-benchers.

Jaji
08-03-2010, 11:23 AM
sure. but in your scenario there was only one jv team and one varsity team. the scales were pronounced and extreme.

it is a little lame to see jasikevicius and the like light up europe and then flop here for a year and give up. some guys don't like the style change, some don't like the fact that they have to prove themselves again. but, i'd say that every nba team could upgrade 2-4 roster spots if they could add any european talent in the euroleague. some starters, some solid rotation guys, some end-of-benchers.

Yeah but I'm using the JV squad as a representation of the Euroleague, not one particular team, and varsity is the entire NBA, again, not just one team.

If a guy had a chance to star in the NBA, I think they'd be there. Just like how everyone is bashing LeBron for saying he wants to take the easy way out (which I don't agree with BTW). Athletes want to compete. The highest level of competition is the NBA. That's where the best basketball players are, European and American alike. The guys who are staying in Europe (not including contract disputes or whatever) are the guys who will not be getting much playing time in the NBA. So they have a choice, stay in Europe and be a star or go the NBA and be a scrub to role player. I'm sure they wished they were better so they could be a star in the NBA. Its the premier basketball league. but they're not good enough to star in the NBA so they stay in Europe.

Just look at who goes to Europe from the states. I know a few guys who I played against in HS who now play in Europe. Why? Because they weren't good enough to go to the NBA. Its pretty much the same thing only the Europeans have a little more incentive to stay close to home. But if there was a 6'-8" 250 pound European with LeBron's athleticism and skill, he would be in the NBA, not in Europe.

NYKalltheway
08-03-2010, 12:00 PM
Watch an 80s and early 90s playoff game from the NBA.
Watch a Euroleague Top 16 game from the 2000s.

Similar basketball, MUCH better players in the NBA.
Watch a 2000s NBA game, there's nothing like that. What's happening is pure prostitution of the league & sport.

Athleticism is essential, but it's exaggerated now. I can't imagine Gasol flying like Howard, but he would destroy him if he had a similar body. If Howard was physically weaker, he would play in a non-Euroleague team in an average league.
Basketball is not about strength and jumping high.

The new generation of NBA fans has no idea of what basketball is.
In the 80s and 90s everyone would watch basketball. A lot of young kids from the 90s stopped caring about basketball. You might blame it on the lockout of 1999, but that's a ridiculous thought. The NBA instead of improving, has become worse. While Europe on the other hand was at a developing stage, level was 20 times worse than the NBA, but now I can honestly say the difference has shrunk.
The Euroleague is one of the most tight basketball competition, and the Eurobasket(national teams) is probably the best basketball tournament on earth. Just check the game results from 1999 till 2009. Amazing basketball is played there, team effors.

Basketball is a team sport in which two teams of five players try to score points by throwing or "shooting" a ball through the top of a basketball hoop while following a set of rules. Basketball is one of the most popular and widely viewed sports in the world.[1]

(from my friend wikipedia)

Five, not one or two. NBA really needs improvement. Europe does not care anymore about the NBA. I'm one of not many NBA fans left, and that's coz I love basketball. But for the last 5 years I've rarely watch a full game, just highlights and tv shows. Playoffs? Maybe I'll watch a full game depending on who plays. Full NBA games are ridiculously worse than the European game. No off the ball movement, just pure isolation, no teamwork, just flashy passes and flashy dunks/layups. I'm not missing much by not watching the games as I can catch those on the highlight shows...

Hellcrooner
08-03-2010, 01:52 PM
how much are these guys making over there? You make it sound like NBA players are paid like scrubs, yet most are making what over 4 million a year? How much more are Euro league guys getting?

nba stars win tons of millions, starters and 6xth or 7th men win 3 to 9 millions in nba.

But Scrubs that go 8-15 in the roster win 1 million dollars AT Best, the majority get the minimum salary thats around 400000 dollars isnt it? BEFORE TAXES so in the end they win around 180000 or 200000 dollars in a year. so thats like 150000 euros.

The AVERAGE starter on a Italian, SPanish, Greek or Russian european team who plays eroleague earsn around 800000-1500000 euors AFTER TAXES (the club pays his taxes) so make your math. Be important n a team in your country or at least your continent,be gamous and earn four times more or be scalabine in the nba....

Hellcrooner
08-03-2010, 01:55 PM
Also Euro players are starting to get sick to have to prove their value HARDED than americans in teh neba.
SIck of the aemrican media never rcognising their talent.

Sick of havint to work hardedr to make their way into the teams rotations and sometimes not making i even it they are better thean other palyer and even if they try harder just because the oach is proamerican bieased.

HoopsDrive
08-03-2010, 01:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7H4PwTeqNo#t=6m20s

Gold in Indianapolis baby, USA 115-120 Brazil.

Oscar Schmidt MAO SANTA

Hellcrooner
08-03-2010, 02:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7H4PwTeqNo#t=6m20s

Gold in Indianapolis baby, USA 115-120 Brazil.

Oscar Schmidt MAO SANTA

he should have played in the nba in the 80s, also Epi from spain.

But in those days iusa coaches were even more racist.

valade16
08-03-2010, 03:50 PM
Also Euro players are starting to get sick to have to prove their value HARDED than americans in teh neba.
SIck of the aemrican media never rcognising their talent.

Sick of havint to work hardedr to make their way into the teams rotations and sometimes not making i even it they are better thean other palyer and even if they try harder just because the oach is proamerican bieased.

If there is a coach that plays worse American players over Europeans simply for a pro-American bias I guarantee that coach is out of a job right now.

The NBA is about winning, and the coaches put the players they THINK will have the best chance of winning on the floor. Period. They can't afford to have biases like that because if they don't produce they will be fired.

you just think the majority of European players are better than American players. It's like anyone born that side of the Atlantic gets a +2 bonus in your eyes...

Hellcrooner
08-03-2010, 03:57 PM
If there is a coach that plays worse American players over Europeans simply for a pro-American bias I guarantee that coach is out of a job right now.

The NBA is about winning, and the coaches put the players they THINK will have the best chance of winning on the floor. Period. They can't afford to have biases like that because if they don't produce they will be fired.

you just think the majority of European players are better than American players. It's like anyone born that side of the Atlantic gets a +2 bonus in your eyes...

Not like that.

Its Clear that ROy is better than RUdy Fernandez for exmaple so im not going to fault macmillan for starting roy.

BUT sorry webster or outleow ARE NOT bctter than Rudy and yeat Mcmillan gave them more plahing time and touches.

Thats just one example.

Anohter?

Raptors dont pla good defense.

What does American media do? its all the fault of CALDRON and BARGNANI ( who by the way was playing out of position=) buit they never cared to say that BOSH didnt deffend anything also.

and i could go on for years.


Its specially anoying that american paleyrs if they are ballhogs and score a lot font get any fire for NOT DEFFENIDING jack making turonvers and not porviding anything more they no tonly dont get called out gor it, but are called stars.

But euro players are always sent off to the bench out for not playing "enough defese" even if they are shooting good, are providing assists, reboun ds etc etc.

theres a double morale in the league wiht americans and foreigners.

REFS do also have a double morealle?

Proog? just cheack the Dallas vs Miami finals and check how the American Star got away with EVERY GCALll while the euro star did not get some clear cu t calls in his gfavour.

DODGERS&LAKERS
08-03-2010, 04:08 PM
Not like that.

Its Clear that ROy is better than RUdy Fernandez for exmaple so im not going to fault macmillan for starting roy.

BUT sorry webster or outleow ARE NOT bctter than Rudy and yeat Mcmillan gave them more plahing time and touches.

Thats just one example.

Anohter?

Raptors dont pla good defense.

What does American media do? its all the fault of CALDRON and BARGNANI ( who by the way was playing out of position=) buit they never cared to say that BOSH didnt deffend anything also.

and i could go on for years.


Its specially anoying that american paleyrs if they are ballhogs and score a lot font get any fire for NOT DEFFENIDING jack making turonvers and not porviding anything more they no tonly dont get called out gor it, but are called stars.

But euro players are always sent off to the bench out for not playing "enough defese" even if they are shooting good, are providing assists, reboun ds etc etc.

theres a double morale in the league wiht americans and foreigners.

REFS do also have a double morealle?

Proog? just cheack the Dallas vs Miami finals and check how the American Star got away with EVERY GCALll while the euro star did not get some clear cu t calls in his gfavour.

Crooner! Mix in a spell check every now and then. I get a headache everytime I read your post. I know English is not your first language, but the spell check would really help some of the things that are beyond misspelled.

Also, its not "double morale" Its called a double standard.

But about your point. Rudy is not a small forward. Talk about people playing out of position. The Blazers would be way too small in the back court.

NYKalltheway
08-03-2010, 04:23 PM
Rudy Fernandez plays on the "3" in Europe.
System usually means there are 2 playmakers who can be transformed to shooters depending on who's having the ball and 1 "2-3" player, which is something between shooting guard and small forward, meaning he's either trying to penetrate or shoot the 3 and has some freelance role. Rudy excels in that position. He can't play in the NBA, as he is forced to man mark instead of use team based defenses.

Rudy is a star player, you just can't use him in the NBA where everything is straight forward and basic. (ie PG assists, PF & C collect rebounds, SG throws 3s, SF is a slasher etc)

Watch how Spain plays with Gasol as C(he's sort of a PF in the NBA) Rudy as "SF" and Calderon as "1-2" playmaker. It's not easier for them in the way that the opposition is inferior, it's just how they learned the game, something that cannot work under the NBA rules & with athleticism being the top priority.

Jaji
08-03-2010, 04:34 PM
Also Euro players are starting to get sick to have to prove their value HARDED than americans in teh neba.
SIck of the aemrican media never rcognising their talent.

Sick of havint to work hardedr to make their way into the teams rotations and sometimes not making i even it they are better thean other palyer and even if they try harder just because the oach is proamerican bieased.

Hmmmm sounds like African Americans in the 60s and 70s.

Hellcrooner
08-03-2010, 04:43 PM
Hmmmm sounds like African Americans in the 60s and 70s.

yes, and a lot of them decided to sighn in ABA teams for that reason.

valade16
08-03-2010, 04:55 PM
Not like that.

Its Clear that ROy is better than RUdy Fernandez for exmaple so im not going to fault macmillan for starting roy.

BUT sorry webster or outleow ARE NOT bctter than Rudy and yeat Mcmillan gave them more plahing time and touches.

Well Outlaw was 6'9" so he could guard a little taller guys than Rudy (not to mention he could guard one on one period). As for Webster, in the Blazers system (which is pretty much the anti-Rudy system) Webster played just as well as Rudy did. Not to mention he's an good to great one on one defender, something Rudy is NOT.

Add to that McMillian values defense almost as much as D'Antoni values offense and you can see why Rudy doesn't play much.

As I stated earlier, the reason so many analysts crap on Euro's defense is because they aren't very good at on the ball defense, because as you've stated in Europe it's FAR more zone, so they haven't practiced the skill as much and they have to learn on the go.

NYKalltheway
08-03-2010, 05:03 PM
As I stated earlier, the reason so many analysts crap on Euro's defense is because they aren't very good at on the ball defense, because as you've stated in Europe it's FAR more zone, so they haven't practiced the skill as much and they have to learn on the go.

Agree on this, but you have to take into account that nobody back there flies like black American players and add to that NBA calibre ones, so it's really amateur stuff for them. You see though that the likes of Wade, Lebron etc don't have it easy against the Europeans(and Argentina to be exact) when they are on the defensive side.

If the same rules applied to the NBA as the rest of the world, then we could draw a better conclusion on a comparison

thekmp211
08-03-2010, 05:18 PM
Yeah but I'm using the JV squad as a representation of the Euroleague, not one particular team, and varsity is the entire NBA, again, not just one team.

If a guy had a chance to star in the NBA, I think they'd be there. Just like how everyone is bashing LeBron for saying he wants to take the easy way out (which I don't agree with BTW). Athletes want to compete. The highest level of competition is the NBA. That's where the best basketball players are, European and American alike. The guys who are staying in Europe (not including contract disputes or whatever) are the guys who will not be getting much playing time in the NBA. So they have a choice, stay in Europe and be a star or go the NBA and be a scrub to role player. I'm sure they wished they were better so they could be a star in the NBA. Its the premier basketball league. but they're not good enough to star in the NBA so they stay in Europe.

Just look at who goes to Europe from the states. I know a few guys who I played against in HS who now play in Europe. Why? Because they weren't good enough to go to the NBA. Its pretty much the same thing only the Europeans have a little more incentive to stay close to home. But if there was a 6'-8" 250 pound European with LeBron's athleticism and skill, he would be in the NBA, not in Europe.

see i don't agree that only the europeans with the chance to be a star/starter come to the nba. there are european players currently playing star roles, starting/role player roles and bench warmer roles. some of these guys were stars in europe, some weren't. they were just the ones that chose to make the jump.

the european option is a different thing for americans and europeans. for europeans, it is the default unless you are scouted, or dominate the leagues there to such an extent that the nba is the last frontier. all american kids are gunning for the nba.

i think our perspective on european basketball is skewed from an nba-centric viewpoint. it is undoubtedly the highest quality, most powerful league in the world. but for many players who grow up over there, european leagues are more than enough. maybe they are wimping out, but maybe they are just being rational actors.

rabzouz 96
08-03-2010, 08:50 PM
Not like that.

Its Clear that ROy is better than RUdy Fernandez for exmaple so im not going to fault macmillan for starting roy.

BUT sorry webster or outleow ARE NOT bctter than Rudy and yeat Mcmillan gave them more plahing time and touches.

Thats just one example.

Anohter?

Raptors dont pla good defense.

What does American media do? its all the fault of CALDRON and BARGNANI ( who by the way was playing out of position=) buit they never cared to say that BOSH didnt deffend anything also.

and i could go on for years.
.

dont agree at all. outlaw overall is better than fernandez, especially at sf. webster had more potential than fernandez before his injuries and is still more usefull at sf. heck even batum is starting over fernandez, and batum is a euro as well, hes even french, if theres a euro country americans hate its gotta be france! fernandez is simply not as good as he thinks.

and i also disagree with your evaluation, best players in europe are bench players in the nba and not stars or 6th men players, there were enough who tried, from jasikevicius to okulaja ot la bomba and they were never satisfying all around, ive also yet to see the superior fundamentals that european players are said to have, because neither dirk nor paul nor bargnani or any other euro player have fundamentals on how to play their position, they just know how to shoot.

Hellcrooner
08-03-2010, 09:01 PM
dont agree at all. outlaw overall is better than fernandez, especially at sf. webster had more potential than fernandez before his injuries and is still more usefull at sf. heck even batum is starting over fernandez, and batum is a euro as well, hes even french, if theres a euro country americans hate its gotta be france! fernandez is simply not as good as he thinks.

and i also disagree with your evaluation, best players in europe are bench players in the nba and not stars or 6th men players, there were enough who tried, from jasikevicius to okulaja ot la bomba and they were never satisfying all around, ive also yet to see the superior fundamentals that european players are said to have, because neither dirk nor paul nor bargnani or any other euro player have fundamentals on how to play their position, they just know how to shoot.
pau only knows how to shoot :rolleyes: keep living in your bubble dude

NYKalltheway
08-03-2010, 10:44 PM
ive also yet to see the superior fundamentals that european players are said to have, because neither dirk nor paul nor bargnani or any other euro player have fundamentals on how to play their position, they just know how to shoot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SKczNvPjRI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vy0kI4SMvo

Bargnani I never rated highly but he has some good moves too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It_iVyiXC3w

Someone is wearing his "I don't like foreigners in my league" glasses :cool:

HoopsDrive
08-03-2010, 11:09 PM
he should have played in the nba in the 80s, also Epi from spain.

But in those days iusa coaches were even more racist.

When Barbosa was the best Brazilian playing in the NBA (:facepalm:) Oscar seemed pretty mad that Brazil wasn't doing enough to develop bball... I kind of agree with him too, guys like Nene, Varejao and Barbosa are all role players... we need a guy to come out of the system and be a star here :(

Btw, this also means that I have no idea what Spliter's upside is...

Hellcrooner
08-03-2010, 11:11 PM
When Barbosa was the best Brazilian playing in the NBA (:facepalm:) Oscar seemed pretty mad that Brazil wasn't doing enough to develop bball... I kind of agree with him too, guys like Nene, Varejao and Barbosa are all role players... we need a guy to come out of the system and be a star here :(

Btw, this also means that I have no idea what Spliter's upside is...

The name of that dude is TIAGO.

Just wait and see , thanks god he fell in Spurs hands,, they are never afraid to allow foreginers to take an important role.

HoopsDrive
08-03-2010, 11:24 PM
The name of that dude is TIAGO.

Just wait and see , thanks god he fell in Spurs hands,, they are never afraid to allow foreginers to take an important role.

I know lol... I just have no idea what kind of potential he got. But you're right, he's pretty lucky he landed with the Spurs. I'll be checking more Spurs games from now on and see what kind of game he got.

Hellcrooner
08-03-2010, 11:46 PM
I know lol... I just have no idea what kind of potential he got. But you're right, he's pretty lucky he landed with the Spurs. I'll be checking more Spurs games from now on and see what kind of game he got.

he si pisicla, plays hard nose defense, he junmps, and has very good pos tmoves.

He will please both type of fans, fundamentals and satheltics fans.

thekmp211
08-04-2010, 03:35 PM
he can be a less-talented tim duncan to tim duncan's not-as-washed-up-as-David-Robinson. his contracted was hailed by pretty much everyone as the best signing this offseason.

rabzouz 96
08-04-2010, 03:42 PM
pau only knows how to shoot :rolleyes: keep living in your bubble dude

ok maybe i put gasol undeservingly in this group, he and his brother are better post players than the other euros, but theyre still not more fundamentally sound than us players on their positions and pau is a bit soft. doesnt change anything about the other euros



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SKczNvPjRI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vy0kI4SMvo

Bargnani I never rated highly but he has some good moves too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It_iVyiXC3w

Someone is wearing his "I don't like foreigners in my league" glasses :cool:

O.o im from europe, i dont care where players are from, i just think that the better fundamentals of europeans are a pipe dream and most of them even lack em, as theyre not really trained on how to play in the paint. i have no idea what that bargnani video should show, but it just proved my point as all he did was shoot and slash from the outside but didnt get a good position in the paint nor show any post moves. he might do it once in a while, but thats more of a fluke than a rule.

valade16
08-04-2010, 04:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SKczNvPjRI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vy0kI4SMvo

Bargnani I never rated highly but he has some good moves too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It_iVyiXC3w

Someone is wearing his "I don't like foreigners in my league" glasses :cool:

This might actually hurt your case, as you always seem to show Dirk and Pau. If Europe has gotten so good at developing fundamentals you shouldn't have to hang your hat on the same 2-3 players...

Take away the Gasol's and Dirk and your left with who? Bargnani is the next best??!! :confused:

And while that video shows he has some good moves, they almost all were him passing or driving. He only actually did a post move once, and that was a turnaround fadeaway (not gonna help the Euro "soft" label). He's good at some thigns but as I've pointed out, his post game is near zero, and he clearly doesn't operate in the paint that much or else he'd have more than his lousy 6 rebounds a game.

Bargnani is a good player, but he's not a great player, nor is he so good he's going to make me forget about all the good players coming out of the states.

Convince me that Dirk and Pau are the norm, not the exception.

Hellcrooner
08-04-2010, 04:13 PM
This might actually hurt your case, as you always seem to show Dirk and Pau. If Europe has gotten so good at developing fundamentals you shouldn't have to hang your hat on the same 2-3 players...

Take away the Gasol's and Dirk and your left with who? Bargnani is the next best??!! :confused:

And while that video shows he has some good moves, they almost all were him passing or driving. He only actually did a post move once, and that was a turnaround fadeaway (not gonna help the Euro "soft" label). He's good at some thigns but as I've pointed out, his post game is near zero, and he clearly doesn't operate in the paint that much or else he'd have more than his lousy 6 rebounds a game.

Bargnani is a good player, but he's not a great player, nor is he so good he's going to make me forget about all the good players coming out of the states.

Convince me that Dirk and Pau are the norm, not the exception.

what makes it differnet for Paur and DIrk is they somehow got lucky and ended up somwhere where they were GIVEN THE CHANCE to develop, and the conifidence to bet the g future of the team on them and bnild around them..

Not many coaches an gms trust their euros enought to do taht.

Archetypical case? Darkio, im nto going to tell if he is god or bad or whatever , ( IMO he left europe too early) ut whet i knoe is ending up in a title contender with a coach like lary brown tha tbarel allowed them to brig the towells to the starters in teh game did not do any kind of favour to hi,m...

Had he fallen in a lottery team that had the time to allow him o develop we maybe shodul be talking bout a complete differnet player.

Hellcrooner
08-04-2010, 04:15 PM
and btwe Dino Radjka, Toni Kikoc, Arcydas sabonis, Vlade Divac ( i gues valade 16 goes for him?( all of them had Post games.

valade16
08-04-2010, 04:46 PM
and btwe Dino Radjka, Toni Kikoc, Arcydas sabonis, Vlade Divac ( i gues valade 16 goes for him?( all of them had Post games.

Yes they did, but that was in the PREVIOUS generation. You can't say Euro's had post games without mentioning the fact that pretty much EVERY big man back then had a good post game.

Perhaps that means that both Europe and the States have gravitated away from post games?

Also, as a Blazer fan, MAN I wish Sabonis could've come over sooner! We'd have taken a title or two with him on our team, but it wasn't meant to be :(

valade16
08-04-2010, 04:49 PM
Not many coaches an gms trust their euros enought to do taht.

Archetypical case? Darkio, im nto going to tell if he is god or bad or whatever , ( IMO he left europe too early) ut whet i knoe is ending up in a title contender with a coach like lary brown tha tbarel allowed them to brig the towells to the starters in teh game did not do any kind of favour to hi,m...

Had he fallen in a lottery team that had the time to allow him o develop we maybe shodul be talking bout a complete differnet player.

Your acting like the NBA is a conspiracy. Trust me, if Euro can lead a team, he's gonna get playing time. Name Euro players in the NBA that COULD'VE been a No. 1 option on a team but weren't because an American coach didn't give them a chance.

If your list is at zero, you passed...

And while Darko didn't get many minutes in Detroit (with Larry Brown, no rookie does), he's had many years to turn it around and be the amazing player everyone thought. Turns out he's average. Whatever, he still gets a huge payday for it.

NYKalltheway
08-04-2010, 05:11 PM
I said, I never rated Bargnani highly. Bargnani was nothing special in Europe. Italian basketball has become much worse than the mid 90s and early 2000s. They produce the odd good player, but other than that, they're not very good.

I included him because you lot keep going on about him.

I also showed those three, because apparently they are in the NBA and you know them. You wanna watch how they do it in Europe?

Some moves by Nikola Pekovic (I wonder if they allow him to show his skills with the T-wolves)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB51hXRhrc4
and it's called PEK & roll, not pick & roll :)
He doesn't shoot at all in games, but he can. Seen him in practice sessions and he also hit 2 threes in an intra-squad friendly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57dENmhkP2w
Here's a 2nd string Greek center. Not part of the National Team and a reserve at his team. He has some great post up moves as well as good perimeter shooting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfLG2bYlrrY
With more brain, this guy could be a new Pau Gasol. I hate him for various reasons, but he's one of the greatest centers in Europe. NBA material 100% if you ask me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Hwl0okmnnI
Best Center for season 09/10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoNg98kVqrY
Interesting highlights from PAO vs NBA teams in the States(under NBA rules which was the first time ever for PAO and they didn't expect so many weird calls)

I don't want to flood the topic with youtube links but you can also search for a lot of other guys like Mike Batiste, Tiago Splitter...


Posting up is basic skills in Europe. You won't see videos on youtube for posting up!!! There are only videos of either team success or a general highlight reel for a player with scoring from distance, posting up, blocking and pick&roll(it's a beautiful thing to watch it perfected, and there are lots of teams who do it perfectly)
Individualism is rarely cherished by Europeans, unless we talk Drazen Petrovic, Nick Galis or Dejan Bodiroga.

So don't be concerned about not seeing enough posting up in youtube links, watch a full game and you'll see that 80% of the moves is in the low post.

NYKalltheway
08-04-2010, 05:33 PM
Your acting like the NBA is a conspiracy. Trust me, if Euro can lead a team, he's gonna get playing time. Name Euro players in the NBA that COULD'VE been a No. 1 option on a team but weren't because an American coach didn't give them a chance.

If your list is at zero, you passed...

And while Darko didn't get many minutes in Detroit (with Larry Brown, no rookie does), he's had many years to turn it around and be the amazing player everyone thought. Turns out he's average. Whatever, he still gets a huge payday for it.

Darko Milicic is not that good. Plus he would never find a sucker to pay him that much money back here! :facepalm:

When you say number 1 option, do you mean #1 for the position or be the #1 option for his team?

Here's a list of those who should have made it but were either mistreated or unlucky to get to the wrong teams
Vasilis Spanoulis
Sarunas Jasikevicius
Rudy Fernandez(can't see why he's so underrated in the States!!!)
Goran Dragic
Viktor Khryapa
Jorge Garbajosa
Antonis Fotsis
Arvydas Macijauskas*

Could also add Stojko Vrankovic(defensive wall), Juan Navarro, Sergei Monia and Sergio Rodriguez...

Plus all those who don't want to go to the NBA for reasons like:

- Different game
- You can't choose where to play!!!! (that's like a crime in Europe :p)
- Other side of the world
- People have gone and have had terrible experiences with coaches, media and teammates
- You need to be lucky to make it. Everyone has the talent, some more than the others or else they wouldn't be there, but you can't cross the Atlantic and just have a fingers-crossed mentality


* "I want to forget that year. Everything went wrong. A really bad coach, a bad franchise. At the end of the season, I didn't even think of returning to New Orleans next season. From the third game on, I was already sentenced to zero minutes for the rest of the year. The NBA isn't funny. Teams are (not) teams. There's not true commitment between the teammates."

El Hombre#5
08-04-2010, 05:52 PM
i GUAARANTEEE that FC Barcelona would be a playoff contender in the East

Trust me, they wouldn't.

valade16
08-04-2010, 06:00 PM
When you say number 1 option, do you mean #1 for the position or be the #1 option for his team?

Here's a list of those who should have made it but were either mistreated or unlucky to get to the wrong teams
Vasilis Spanoulis
Sarunas Jasikevicius
Rudy Fernandez(can't see why he's so underrated in the States!!!)
Goran Dragic
Viktor Khryapa
Jorge Garbajosa
Antonis Fotsis
Arvydas Macijauskas*

Could also add Stojko Vrankovic(defensive wall), Juan Navarro, Sergei Monia and Sergio Rodriguez...

I meant like a No. 1 option on a team. HAHA, if Sergio Rodriguez or Rudy Fernandez or Victor Khryapa were the No. 1 option on a team that team wouldn't crack 5 wins let alone come close to the 9 the 76ers got back in the day lol.

Of the guys I've seen play of that list, they are all role players, maybe fringe starters at best.

Please tell me you don't honestly think Sergio could be a quality player in the NBA. He flamed out of SACRAMENTO AND NEW YORK. If you don't have enough skills to play with them, your not very good...

t_money25
08-04-2010, 06:04 PM
European player development puts all players basically thru the training regiments as opposed to here in the states we focus on a specific players talents in an attempt to reach his ceiling......for ex. Dwight Howard - here in the states during practice i'm sure he doesn't do any dribbling drills or long range shooting drills......if he played in Europe he would most likely do those things

NYYCowboys
08-04-2010, 06:23 PM
The number of European players drafted in the past few years has taken a huge swing downward, because a lot of them used to get drafted as pure future potential picks and so many of them didn't pan out, so I disagree with Kobe

NYKalltheway
08-04-2010, 07:18 PM
The number of European players drafted in the past few years has taken a huge swing downward, because a lot of them used to get drafted as pure future potential picks and so many of them didn't pan out, so I disagree with Kobe

Draft of international players increased(including Europeans)

There are still a lot of drafted players who don't want to make the next step to the NBA for whatever reasons.

Indiana Pacers: Erazem Lorbek, Stanko Barac
Cleveland Cavaliers: Sasha Kaun
Washington Wizards: Emir Preldzic
Orlando Magic: Milovan Rakovic, Fran Vasquez
Atlanta Hawks: Pape Sy, Alain Digbeu!!!(from 1997!!!), Cenk Akyol, Sergiy Gladyr
Toronto Raptors: Giorgos Printezis
San Antonio Spurs: Robertas Javtokas(2001!), Viktor Sanikidze, Sergei Karaulov, Ryan Richards, James Gist, Nando De Colo (+ Splitter who came this season)
Minnesota Timberwolves: Ricky Rubio, Henk Noel, Paulao Prestes, Nemanja Bjelica (+ Pekovic who came this year)
Utah Jazz: Tadija Dragicevic, Ante Tomic, Peter Fehse(2002!)
Portland Trail Blazers: Joel Freeland, Petteri Koponen, Victor Claver
Houston Rockets: Frederic Weis(1999!), Venson Hamilton(1999!), Kyle Hill(2001!), Sergei Lishouk(2004!), Axel Hervelle, Lior Eliyahu, Brad Newley, Maarty Leunen, Sergio Lull
Dallas Mavericks: Nick Calathes, Shan Foster, Ahmad Nivins
LA Clippers: Sofoklis Schortsianitis(2003!!!)


You know what else? Most of them are not even known in the basketball world. Most of them are nothing special, yet drafted as prospects. I've underlined most of the top guys from this list

Faycem
08-04-2010, 07:30 PM
Draft of international players increased(including Europeans)

There are still a lot of drafted players who don't want to make the next step to the NBA for whatever reasons.

Indiana Pacers: Erazem Lorbek, Stanko Barac
Cleveland Cavaliers: Sasha Kaun
Washington Wizards: Emir Preldzic
Orlando Magic: Milovan Rakovic, Fran Vasquez
Atlanta Hawks: Pape Sy, Alain Digbeu!!!(from 1997!!!), Cenk Akyol, Sergiy Gladyr
Toronto Raptors: Giorgos Printezis
San Antonio Spurs: Robertas Javtokas(2001!), Viktor Sanikidze, Sergei Karaulov, Ryan Richards, James Gist, Nando De Colo (+ Splitter who came this season)
Minnesota Timberwolves: Ricky Rubio, Henk Noel, Paulao Prestes, Nemanja Bjelica (+ Pekovic who came this year)
Utah Jazz: Tadija Dragicevic, Ante Tomic, Peter Fehse(2002!)
Portland Trail Blazers: Joel Freeland, Petteri Koponen, Victor Claver
Houston Rockets: Frederic Weis(1999!), Venson Hamilton(1999!), Kyle Hill(2001!), Sergei Lishouk(2004!), Axel Hervelle, Lior Eliyahu, Brad Newley, Maarty Leunen, Sergio Lull
Dallas Mavericks: Nick Calathes, Shan Foster, Ahmad Nivins
LA Clippers: Sofoklis Schortsianitis(2003!!!)


You know what else? Most of them are not even known in the basketball world. Most of them are nothing special, yet drafted as prospects. I've underlined most of the top guys from this list

Rockets have draft rights for Sergio Llul? Really? That's a good prospect if healthy

rabzouz 96
08-04-2010, 09:00 PM
European player development puts all players basically thru the training regiments as opposed to here in the states we focus on a specific players talents in an attempt to reach his ceiling......for ex. Dwight Howard - here in the states during practice i'm sure he doesn't do any dribbling drills or long range shooting drills......if he played in Europe he would most likely do those things

and you see that as an advantage? putting all players through the same regiment without specifically adressing their needs? first thing,when dwight howard used to be a pg, so he once knew how to dribble and shoot. second if he were to go through euro training he might dribble and shoot a little better but i bet he wouldnt be the rebounder he is and a way worse defender aand even worse in his postgame. there are players in chicagos backyards that play on a higher niveau than most players from european nationalteams and that says a lot about most of the european player development systems.

Hellcrooner
08-04-2010, 09:03 PM
Lull is the tipic case.

He has ALL th e skils in the world.

But he knows Rockets have Brooks and Martin.
Knows fans are blinded by brooks and martin.

Knows coach is blinded by brooks and martin.
So even if he knows he[B] coud[/B ( not an affirmation, a possibility)] do b etter he does not want to spend his youth on a bench because he does not get an apropiate chance.

rabzouz 96
08-04-2010, 09:08 PM
Lull is the tipic case.

He has ALL th e skils in the world.

But he knows Rockets have Brooks and Martin.
Knows fans are blinded by brooks and martin.

Knows coach is blinded by brooks and martin.
So even if he knows he[B] coud[/B ( not an affirmation, a possibility)] do b etter he does not want to spend his youth on a bench because he does not get an apropiate chance.

so hes stuck behind 2 better players, there are enough american players that face the same fate, thats not a case of thinking less of euro players.

Hellcrooner
08-04-2010, 09:21 PM
so hes stuck behind 2 better players, there are enough american players that face the same fate, thats not a case of thinking less of euro players.

point 1 we dont know if he is or isnt better than them, and we wont know if the coach goes .....call it conservative, call it american homerist call is as you want but he wont get the oportunity, if he WAS american he would get a chance to see if he is or is not better.


2 given he WOnt be iven a right chance why sign the ridicule rookie contract and spent 4 years of your youth spoling your developmenete sitting behind two guys your coach is not goingt to allow you to jum over no matter how hard you work , 8000 mile away form home when you can be HOME earning 3 to 5 times the money, STARRING for a team whose fans adore you?

thekmp211
08-04-2010, 09:47 PM
Lull is the tipic case.

He has ALL th e skils in the world.

But he knows Rockets have Brooks and Martin.
Knows fans are blinded by brooks and martin.

Knows coach is blinded by brooks and martin.
So even if he knows he[B] coud[/B ( not an affirmation, a possibility)] do b etter he does not want to spend his youth on a bench because he does not get an apropiate chance.

i mean those two guys are just good.

rabzouz 96
08-04-2010, 10:13 PM
point 1 we dont know if he is or isnt better than them, and we wont know if the coach goes .....call it conservative, call it american homerist call is as you want but he wont get the oportunity, if he WAS american he would get a chance to see if he is or is not better.


2 given he WOnt be iven a right chance why sign the ridicule rookie contract and spent 4 years of your youth spoling your developmenete sitting behind two guys your coach is not goingt to allow you to jum over no matter how hard you work , 8000 mile away form home when you can be HOME earning 3 to 5 times the money, STARRING for a team whose fans adore you?

1. hes a young player and the 2 other guys are in their primes, of course theyre better than him and will get more PT. thats just a bunch of whining and bitshing, there are enough american players with the same fate, marcus williams had all the potential in the world and i bet his career wouldve looked way different had he not been stuck behind jason kidd and therefore not gotten enough playing time.there are enough examples of players who couldnt get enough PT, heck even gerald wallace was stuck behind some other players before he got his freedom when the bobcats expansiondrafted him. there are enough foreign players who made it on different teams to disprove this theory. batum got his chance, diaw got it,pietrus, mbah a moute,even guys like ilyasova, kleiza, ibaka, llunga mbenga, nocioni,araujo,...


2. only thing i disagree with is that the coach will not play him over them no matter how hard he works. if he gets better than the other 2 guys he will play.

JayW_1023
08-05-2010, 07:03 AM
I wish more NBA players would follow the attitude and work ethic of the following guys:

Chauncey Billups
Tim Duncan
Tayshaun Prince
Kobe Bryant
Shane Battier
Steve Nash
Ray Allen

Not such knuckleheads like Allen Iverson who thinks he is all that because he has streetball cred and a mean crossover.

valade16
08-05-2010, 03:51 PM
point 1 we dont know if he is or isnt better than them, and we wont know if the coach goes .....call it conservative, call it american homerist call is as you want but he wont get the oportunity, if he WAS american he would get a chance to see if he is or is not better.


2 given he WOnt be iven a right chance why sign the ridicule rookie contract and spent 4 years of your youth spoling your developmenete sitting behind two guys your coach is not goingt to allow you to jum over no matter how hard you work , 8000 mile away form home when you can be HOME earning 3 to 5 times the money, STARRING for a team whose fans adore you?

That is a load of BS :mad: WHY DO YOU KEEP PERPETUATING THIS MYTH!?

Here's a good example. 2 years ago the Blazers drafted 2 foreigners, one was Fernandez, the other was Batum.

Now considering both are foreigners and we have a deep rooted american bias apparently, they should never see playing time. Well, during camp, Batum played SO well McMillian STARTED him, as a ROOKIE!!!!! And he wasn't even the hyped Euro coming in (Fernandez), he just flat PLAYED BETTER and earned his playing time.

It sounds to me like you want all the Euro's to be handed 30 min starting jobs without having to EARN it...

Bottom line, if you show your better in practice, you will see the floor in the games. Period. End of discussion, no european bias.

Hellcrooner
08-05-2010, 04:05 PM
That is a load of BS :mad: WHY DO YOU KEEP PERPETUATING THIS MYTH!?

Here's a good example. 2 years ago the Blazers drafted 2 foreigners, one was Fernandez, the other was Batum.

Now considering both are foreigners and we have a deep rooted american bias apparently, they should never see playing time. Well, during camp, Batum played SO well McMillian STARTED him, as a ROOKIE!!!!! And he wasn't even the hyped Euro coming in (Fernandez), he just flat PLAYED BETTER and earned his playing time.

It sounds to me like you want all the Euro's to be handed 30 min starting jobs without having to EARN it...

Bottom line, if you show your better in practice, you will see the floor in the games. Period. End of discussion, no european bias.

whats batum ebest thing athelticism or funadamentals?

theres also another difference but i wont say it.

valade16
08-05-2010, 04:11 PM
whats batum ebest thing athelticism or funadamentals?

theres also another difference but i wont say it.

while he is athletic his fundamentals are very good (WAY better than Fernandez'). He can shoot (50% FG, 40% 3-pt, 84% FT last year), rebound, pass, block, steal, and play outstanding one on one defense. He's also a great cutter to the basket and he moves without the ball really well. He is a fundamentally sound player.

If your implying what I think you implying then you have your 1960's America glasses on :facepalm:

There is no playing time racism in the NBA. If there was then why are all these foreigners getting drafted??!!! WHY DRAFT A GUY YOU DON'T INTEND TO PLAY BECAUSE YOUR RACIST??!!

Hellcrooner, I sure hope someday you stop being a racist *****

xbrackattackx
08-05-2010, 04:27 PM
I wish more NBA players would follow the attitude and work ethic of the following guys:

Chauncey Billups
Tim Duncan
Tayshaun Prince
Kobe Bryant
Shane Battier
Steve Nash
Ray Allen

Not such knuckleheads like Allen Iverson who thinks he is all that because he has streetball cred and a mean crossover.


Great group of guys to show hard work. Those guys never stop.

ishouldbeagm
08-05-2010, 07:39 PM
i would have my drafted players play in argentina for a year or so those guys can balll.

rabzouz 96
08-05-2010, 07:40 PM
That is a load of BS :mad: WHY DO YOU KEEP PERPETUATING THIS MYTH!?

Here's a good example. 2 years ago the Blazers drafted 2 foreigners, one was Fernandez, the other was Batum.

Now considering both are foreigners and we have a deep rooted american bias apparently, they should never see playing time. Well, during camp, Batum played SO well McMillian STARTED him, as a ROOKIE!!!!! And he wasn't even the hyped Euro coming in (Fernandez), he just flat PLAYED BETTER and earned his playing time.

It sounds to me like you want all the Euro's to be handed 30 min starting jobs without having to EARN it...

Bottom line, if you show your better in practice, you will see the floor in the games. Period. End of discussion, no european bias.

both posts were spot on

JayW_1023
08-06-2010, 05:14 AM
If the Euroleague would take over the functions of the NBDL the level of NBA basketball would end up much higher.