PDA

View Full Version : Nobody will EVER break Bonds home run single season record.



baseballguru3
07-27-2010, 10:52 PM
Unless Steroids become legal.

Agree/Disagree?

The most a "clean" hitter has hit in the modern era was Ryan Howard with 58...... 16 away from breaking the record. Kinda sad that baseballs most prestigious single season record will always have an asterisk beside it.

:facepalm:

hugepatsfan
07-27-2010, 10:57 PM
K

Zmaster52
07-27-2010, 11:08 PM
cool.

bagwell368
07-27-2010, 11:09 PM
You think Howard is clean?

Hahahhahahahrrrahhahahahhahahahahaaaa. He might be, but I wouldn't bet your life on it.

Your list is wrong also, the modern era is since 1920:

Maris - 61
Ruth - 60 (154 games)
Ruth - 59 (154 games)
Foxx - 58 (154 games)
Greenberg - 58 (154 games)
Howard - 58
Griffey - 56 (twice)
Wilson - 56 (154 games)
Kiner - 56 (154 games)

Fields get smaller and smaller, rules change, strike zones change. Never say never, but you can say unlikely.

More-Than-Most
07-27-2010, 11:12 PM
You think Howard is clean?

Hahahhahahahrrrahhahahahhahahahahaaaa. He might be, but I wouldn't bet your life on it.

Your list is wrong also, the modern era is since 1920:

Maris - 61
Ruth - 60 (154 games)
Ruth - 59 (154 games)
Foxx - 58 (154 games)
Greenberg - 58 (154 games)
Howard - 58
Griffey - 56 (twice)
Wilson - 56 (154 games)
Kiner - 56 (154 games)

Fields get smaller and smaller, rules change, strike zones change. Never say never, but you can say unlikely.

I believe he is clean... he is a big huge guy... he has always been a big guy lol... Bonds went from tiny to huge.

baseballguru3
07-27-2010, 11:15 PM
Howard has always been a huge guy man, he is clean otherwise he would get caught for steorid use.

and those numbers put up waaaaay back in the day of an all white league and not as much talent throughout the league dont mean much to me. thats their era...modern era is like 80's until now

Melo15
07-27-2010, 11:19 PM
I love lamp

StealingSigns
07-27-2010, 11:21 PM
By definition, according to MLB, the modern era is 1900-now.

Giants27
07-27-2010, 11:21 PM
Whats your point..

ROSEBULL
07-27-2010, 11:22 PM
Pujols could probably do it, but pitchers pitch around him too often and won't test him enough to let that happen.

sexicano31
07-27-2010, 11:26 PM
Cool story bro

avrpatsfan
07-27-2010, 11:30 PM
Prince Fielder could do it at Fenway. With that RF porch it's possible.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-27-2010, 11:31 PM
Unless Steroids become legal.

Agree/Disagree?

The most a "clean" hitter has hit in the modern era was Ryan Howard with 58...... 16 away from breaking the record. Kinda sad that baseballs most prestigious single season record will always have an asterisk beside it.

:facepalm:

Says who

fishfan79
07-27-2010, 11:36 PM
hr record is held by maris not bonds anyways

avrpatsfan
07-27-2010, 11:38 PM
No it's held by Bonds.

baseballguru3
07-27-2010, 11:39 PM
what other record comes close to the hr record man....ill telll you nothing does

nymetsrule
07-27-2010, 11:46 PM
what other record comes close to the hr record man....ill telll you nothing does

Charles Radbourn with his single season win record. :laugh2:

lakersfan01
07-27-2010, 11:48 PM
Unless Steroids become legal.

Agree/Disagree?

The most a "clean" hitter has hit in the modern era was Ryan Howard with 58...... 16 away from breaking the record. Kinda sad that baseballs most prestigious single season record will always have an asterisk beside it.

:facepalm:

No Ken Griffey Jr had more. He was overshadowed by chemical freaks Bonds Mcgwire and Sosa.

DirtNasty
07-28-2010, 12:04 AM
first off there investigating bonds more than anyone else and he still hasnt been proven guilty. I can not wait untill it comes out that big albert did steriods. and also griffey has come back from a lot of injurys......all without using any steriods for rehab?

DirtNasty
07-28-2010, 12:05 AM
oh and barry bonds is a god.

dfritz03
07-28-2010, 12:08 AM
Ok first off, if anyone thinks Ryan Howard is or was on performance enhancing drugs, you shouldn't talk about baseball but it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about...

Secondly, like people have said before me, you literally have no idea what the future will hold. No one knows what the game will turn into, and no one knows what kind of talent/players will be playing the game. For all we know, one power hitter can just have the season of their life and play at the right place and hit 74. Or a player can come along that hits 60+ bombs every season, with one season hitting the record... We just don't know. So to say the record will NEVER be broken means nothing, because no one knows for certain.

netsgiantsyanks
07-28-2010, 12:09 AM
oh and barry bonds is a god.

yeah, the god of juicing.

netsgiantsyanks
07-28-2010, 12:11 AM
first off there investigating bonds more than anyone else and he still hasnt been proven guilty. I can not wait untill it comes out that big albert did steriods. and also griffey has come back from a lot of injurys......all without using any steriods for rehab?

you are really dumb. you really dont think bonds used steroids?? but you think griffey jr. did?? **** a court case. the guy came in to training camp in 98 bigger than he EVER was. and his excuse was a bad diet?? get the hell outta here.

bagwell368
07-28-2010, 12:14 AM
I believe he is clean... he is a big huge guy... he has always been a big guy lol... Bonds went from tiny to huge.

So is Ortiz.

Zaunnie
07-28-2010, 12:15 AM
cool beans.

bagwell368
07-28-2010, 12:16 AM
Howard has always been a huge guy man, he is clean otherwise he would get caught for steorid use.

and those numbers put up waaaaay back in the day of an all white league and not as much talent throughout the league dont mean much to me. thats their era...modern era is like 80's until now

Ever hear of HGH? Bonds did more of that, because until very recently you couldn't detect it at all. Big heads, big all around....

Celtic AL
07-28-2010, 12:16 AM
Unless Steroids become legal.

Agree/Disagree?

The most a "clean" hitter has hit in the modern era was Ryan Howard with 58...... 16 away from breaking the record. Kinda sad that baseballs most prestigious single season record will always have an asterisk beside it.

:facepalm:

are you lou holtz lisp?

bagwell368
07-28-2010, 12:22 AM
Ok first off, if anyone thinks Ryan Howard is or was on performance enhancing drugs, you shouldn't talk about baseball but it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about...

Because a Philly fan says so? HAHAHHAHahrhrhaHhHAHAHSHfaa

Give me a break. Do you have intimate knowledge of your binky? Test his urine?

Nobody should wonder on your assurance. Either you are very sure, or very childish.

Celtic AL
07-28-2010, 12:24 AM
So is Ortiz.

ortiz is fat

Zmaster52
07-28-2010, 12:28 AM
Charles Radbourn with his single season win record. :laugh2:

54 wins is nothing

dfritz03
07-28-2010, 12:30 AM
Because a Philly fan says so? HAHAHHAHahrhrhaHhHAHAHSHfaa

Give me a break. Do you have intimate knowledge of your binky? Test his urine?

Nobody should wonder on your assurance. Either you are very sure, or very childish.

I'm actually not even that big on Ryan Howard. But if he was on steroids, don't you think he would have been suspended like the rest of the players that got suspended? they started testing in 2003, Ryan Howard's first appearance in the bigs was in '04. So yes, I do know for a fact he never used PED's. He's a big frame and has been since he was drafted by the phils, it's not like he blew up like Bonds did or McGwire. So please, before you start acting like you know what your talking about, get the facts first.

Gigantes4Life
07-28-2010, 12:31 AM
I'm actually not even that big on Ryan Howard. But if he was on steroids, don't you think he would have been suspended like the rest of the players that got suspended? they started testing in 2003, Ryan Howard's first appearance in the bigs was in '04. So yes, I do know for a fact he never used PED's. He's a big frame and has been since he was drafted by the phils, it's not like he blew up like Bonds did or McGwire. So please, before you start acting like you know what your talking about, get the facts first.

You mean you can't take steroids before you get to pro baseball?

dfritz03
07-28-2010, 12:37 AM
You mean you can't take steroids before you get to pro baseball?

Ae you kidding me? Seriously? What did I just say about being a big guy before he was drafted... I guess because he is a power hitter than he MUST be on PED's... I don't trash people for their opinions, but if you seriously think Ryan Howard used PED's, you're an idiot.

Crzycjunx76
07-28-2010, 12:38 AM
I bet we see a lot more disparity between the true star talents and the every day ball players as well. Anyone who thinks the big hulking home run hitters were the only ones benefiting from roids is deluding themselves. The fire-balling relief pitcher, the speedy lead off man, the acrobatic out fielder, and the workhorse starting pitchers among others all gained advantages in quickness, durability, and longevity from the creative use of now banned substances... but most of all the average talents boosted their game to the level of past stars and the fringe average players used to fight their way to the majors... without this boost the overall talent level will drop in the league but the truly superstar talents will still rise to the top and find themselves with a wider disparity between themselves and their competition. I would not be surprised to see a .400 average at some point in the next decade, or a collection of true aces that routinely keep their ERA's around or under a 2.

Me and Mr. T
07-28-2010, 12:44 AM
ortiz is fat

Yeah and he also took PED's! Did you forget about the 2003 list with his name on it?

stupidmop
07-28-2010, 12:46 AM
I do not think anyone will ever break Bonds single-season record and that is for two reasons:

(1) juicing obviously.
(2) talent drought.

Baseball continues to lose elite athletes to other sports. Unless something changes the talent drought to other sports, I don't think you are likely to see another player like Bonds all too often. Without that many elite players in the league, it's going to be pretty unlikely someone breaks it.

Yes Bonds juiced, he would not have been as good as he was without the juice, but he still was one of the greatest players to ever grace the game.

championships
07-28-2010, 12:49 AM
Someone, sometime in the future will break it. There will be a new, undetectable, drug waiting to be discovered

Rad_Racing
07-28-2010, 12:54 AM
54 wins is nothing

Exactly, the Orioles might win 54 this year.


I thought Bryce Harper already broke the single-season HR record?

Lloyd Christmas
07-28-2010, 01:00 AM
The way ballparks keep getting built smaller and smaller I think one day someone will break this record. Hell, is it a reach for the Yankees to sign the best power hitter in 10 years hitting them out in that stadium?

TxRangersP1
07-28-2010, 01:04 AM
Roger Maris still holds the legit record

burgh_fan66
07-28-2010, 01:09 AM
If the hype is true Harper should break the record this season after signing in August. Then again he might be pitched around some and only finish with 65-70 so it might have to wait until 2011.

nymetsrule
07-28-2010, 01:10 AM
Exactly, the Orioles might win 54 this year.


I thought Bryce Harper already broke the single-season HR record?

Bryce Harper's single-season HR record is nothing compared to Strasburg's back to back to back to back to back to back to back to back Cy Young Awards.

t327
07-28-2010, 01:15 AM
Roger Maris still holds the legit record

If you really want to be technical, Babe Ruth still holds it. Ruth hit 60 in 154 games (when that was the regular season scheduled). Maris hit 2 after his 154th game, when a 162 game schedule was implemented. So his 61 technically can have an * on it as well.

Gigantes4Life
07-28-2010, 01:23 AM
Ae you kidding me? Seriously? What did I just say about being a big guy before he was drafted... I guess because he is a power hitter than he MUST be on PED's... I don't trash people for their opinions, but if you seriously think Ryan Howard used PED's, you're an idiot.

Thanks for calling me an idiot.

I never said anything about him using PEDs, I was only criticizing your argument.

He could have taken PEDs when he was 14 for all we know. Nobody's innocent as far as I'm concerned.

Also, not all PEDs make you gigantic. See Neifi Perez.

Celtic AL
07-28-2010, 01:27 AM
Yeah and he also took PED's! Did you forget about the 2003 list with his name on it?

ik he took PEDs DUH:facepalm:

Public Enemy #1
07-28-2010, 01:39 AM
Its held by Bonds and will always be held by Bonds until somebody breaks it which won't be happening anytime soon

ntat
07-28-2010, 01:42 AM
Pujols could probably do it, but pitchers pitch around him too often and won't test him enough to let that happen.
I would like to think he doesnt get pitched around that often. Trust me.

ntat
07-28-2010, 01:42 AM
and **** this baiting bull **** thread.

Public Enemy #1
07-28-2010, 01:43 AM
and **** this baiting bull **** thread.

:clap:

ntat
07-28-2010, 01:45 AM
I'm actually not even that big on Ryan Howard. But if he was on steroids, don't you think he would have been suspended like the rest of the players that got suspended? they started testing in 2003, Ryan Howard's first appearance in the bigs was in '04. So yes, I do know for a fact he never used PED's. He's a big frame and has been since he was drafted by the phils, it's not like he blew up like Bonds did or McGwire. So please, before you start acting like you know what your talking about, get the facts first.

u dont know **** man. HGH was impossible to test 4. And Barry was never suspended, but i bet u know for a FACT he took steroids right?

StealingSigns
07-28-2010, 02:10 AM
and **** this baiting bull **** thread.

The OP seems to be pretty good at these.

iggypop123
07-28-2010, 02:16 AM
Unless Steroids become legal.

Agree/Disagree?

The most a "clean" hitter has hit in the modern era was Ryan Howard with 58...... 16 away from breaking the record. Kinda sad that baseballs most prestigious single season record will always have an asterisk beside it.

:facepalm:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj290/TheWoodenBlock/coolstorybro3.jpg

Me and Mr. T
07-28-2010, 02:30 AM
I think it's funny when people actually think that their teams players NEVER took roids! Give me a break! They all cheated.

Kingz4L
07-28-2010, 02:51 AM
Unless Steroids become legal.

Agree/Disagree?

The most a "clean" hitter has hit in the modern era was Ryan Howard with 58...... 16 away from breaking the record. Kinda sad that baseballs most prestigious single season record will always have an asterisk beside it.

:facepalm:

I think Albert Pujols can do it, but I'm sure there will be a new star born later on in our lives that will be a beast...remember records are always bound to be broken!!

ILikeThePhils
07-28-2010, 03:02 AM
Ryan Howard hit a 400 foot homer when he was 12. Roids.

HowFit
07-28-2010, 04:12 AM
Howard has always been a huge guy man, he is clean otherwise he would get caught for steorid use.

and those numbers put up waaaaay back in the day of an all white league and not as much talent throughout the league dont mean much to me. thats their era...modern era is like 80's until now

there are steroids out there that's for strength and not size

HowFit
07-28-2010, 04:15 AM
first off there investigating bonds more than anyone else and he still hasnt been proven guilty. I can not wait untill it comes out that big albert did steriods. and also griffey has come back from a lot of injurys......all without using any steriods for rehab?

Lies have it easy way out...

HowFit
07-28-2010, 04:17 AM
Ever hear of HGH? Bonds did more of that, because until very recently you couldn't detect it at all. Big heads, big all around....

yep...

HowFit
07-28-2010, 04:21 AM
I do not think anyone will ever break Bonds single-season record and that is for two reasons:

(1) juicing obviously.
(2) talent drought.

Baseball continues to lose elite athletes to other sports. Unless something changes the talent drought to other sports, I don't think you are likely to see another player like Bonds all too often. Without that many elite players in the league, it's going to be pretty unlikely someone breaks it.

Yes Bonds juiced, he would not have been as good as he was without the juice, but he still was one of the greatest players to ever grace the game.

bump...

HowFit
07-28-2010, 04:29 AM
Ae you kidding me? Seriously? What did I just say about being a big guy before he was drafted... I guess because he is a power hitter than he MUST be on PED's... I don't trash people for their opinions, but if you seriously think Ryan Howard used PED's, you're an idiot.

not saying he did but there's always a possibility, like anybody else...there are stuff out there that helps pass tests or a player could mask a compound. There's some easy way out for these guys

phillies4life13
07-28-2010, 05:07 AM
The homerun record is held by bonds sucks but it is. Its unlikely to be broken unless Howard can Play two halfs like he plays the second half every year.

tmacsc2
07-28-2010, 06:09 AM
The Homerun Record is held by Roger maris and The steroid record is held by bonds!!

phillies4life13
07-28-2010, 06:33 AM
The Homerun Record is held by Roger maris and The steroid record is held by bonds!!

your right, But hopefully someday someone will Break bonds record and there wont have to be two guys holding this record just one.............

phillies4life13
07-28-2010, 06:35 AM
If it happens with any current active players I would say Howard has the best chance........

Bruno
07-28-2010, 06:36 AM
hr record is held by maris not bonds anyways

:clap::clap:

Manatoo
07-28-2010, 06:37 AM
Do people honestly think we are in a clean era now? Players will always find away to cheat the system and the cheaters will always be ahead of the newest test, to think that baseball is clean, or even close to it now is nothing short of laughable...

phillies4life13
07-28-2010, 06:47 AM
Do people honestly think we are in a clean era now? Players will always find away to cheat the system and the cheaters will always be ahead of the newest test, to think that baseball is clean, or even close to it now is nothing short of laughable...

in that case how do we know they weren't cheating during ruth, mantles or Arrons eras as well!!!!!!!!!!!

WatWoudJordanDo
07-28-2010, 06:50 AM
technically you can still say Ruth owns it :P Maris did it more games, Bonds did it with better drugs...

i just cant believe baseball will protect this guy and not give him an * when maris was a stand up guy who everyone liked, for the most part (except NY fans but they hate everyone...just kidding lol) and he did even live to see the day where his record was THE record

Huskers
07-28-2010, 07:40 AM
Steroids have been around since world war 2, so do we really know if anyone was ever clean? There are many ways to beat test and several steroids are in and out of your system fast. So it depends on what kind of testing they are doing. There is also hgh, ways of taking insulin, IGF-1 and myostatin blockers to name a few that are on the horizon. As long as millions of dollars are involved athletes will always have other performance enhancing drugs to turn to and be ahead of testing.

HowFit
07-28-2010, 08:22 AM
Do people honestly think we are in a clean era now? Players will always find away to cheat the system and the cheaters will always be ahead of the newest test, to think that baseball is clean, or even close to it now is nothing short of laughable...

bump...

HowFit
07-28-2010, 08:24 AM
in that case how do we know they weren't cheating during ruth, mantles or Arrons eras as well!!!!!!!!!!!

steroids were not around during Ruth & Mantle's times, in fact even Arrons...what would Ruth be like if he wasn't drunk all the time? Maybe 800 homers?

Manatoo
07-28-2010, 10:25 AM
in that case how do we know they weren't cheating during ruth, mantles or Arrons eras as well!!!!!!!!!!!

Uh... you do know that Hank Aaron admitted to taking greenies right?

Brooklyn Mets
07-28-2010, 10:40 AM
never going to happen unless they strip him of his record

DodgersFanFor23
07-28-2010, 11:10 AM
http://www.thenoseonyourface.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/bonds.JPG

BaustinSali08
07-28-2010, 11:15 AM
:horse: I think this is appropriate for this topic

kingkenny01
07-28-2010, 11:41 AM
A-rod will beat bonds records

theslick1
07-28-2010, 01:31 PM
u dont know **** man. HGH was impossible to test 4. And Barry was never suspended, but i bet u know for a FACT he took steroids right?

No one knows if Bonds took steroids. For all we know, he has some mysterious disease that makes your head double in size as you get older.

Steelers>NFL
07-28-2010, 01:38 PM
:yawn:

HowFit
07-28-2010, 01:53 PM
A-rod will beat bonds records

thinking the same thing if stays healthy...Howard won't. Unfortunately, he broke in majors at later age and doesn't even have 300 yet for his career and he's 30. Pujols, on other hand, has a chance

NYhighrollaz
07-28-2010, 02:30 PM
No one knows if Bonds took steroids. For all we know, he has some mysterious disease that makes your head double in size as you get older.

It's probability. We don't know because HGH was not tested for. take a look at before and after photos from his days with the pirates and the giants. it's like i'm looking at two different people.

Bonds, as many of you may not remember was NOT a big time hr hitter. he had an all around game that made him a great player. But all of a sudden, a guy gets bigger, a guy gets older, and he's hitting 70 plus out? I mean probability tells you he took SOMETHING to enhance performance.

dfritz03
07-28-2010, 02:55 PM
u dont know **** man. HGH was impossible to test 4. And Barry was never suspended, but i bet u know for a FACT he took steroids right?

Um.... Yeah, he did. If you read what I wrote earlier, testing and suspensions in baseball for PED's didn't begin until 2004, by that time he stopped using the drugs. But I guess him being named in the Mitchell Report and being indicted for lying to congress about using PED's means nothing to you...

ntat
07-28-2010, 03:04 PM
No one knows if Bonds took steroids. For all we know, he has some mysterious disease that makes your head double in size as you get older.look at pictures of ur 19 yr old dad, and look at his *** when hes 42.

ntat
07-28-2010, 03:05 PM
It's probability. We don't know because HGH was not tested for. take a look at before and after photos from his days with the pirates and the giants. it's like i'm looking at two different people.

Bonds, as many of you may not remember was NOT a big time hr hitter. he had an all around game that made him a great player. But all of a sudden, a guy gets bigger, a guy gets older, and he's hitting 70 plus out? I mean probability tells you he took SOMETHING to enhance performance.

yes he was.

ntat
07-28-2010, 03:07 PM
Um.... Yeah, he did. If you read what I wrote earlier, testing and suspensions in baseball for PED's didn't begin until 2004, by that time he stopped using the drugs. But I guess him being named in the Mitchell Report and being indicted for lying to congress about using PED's means nothing to you...And the only thing on the mitchell report is someone saying bonds took em, not pos test. and u mean that case that keeps getting posponed because they dont have a case? get the **** out of here man, ur jaded as **** if u think u know whats up in baseball. And r u really tryong to say Bond's got suspended? Cuz he didnt.

dfritz03
07-28-2010, 03:15 PM
u mean that case that keeps getting posponed because they dont have a case? get the **** out of here man, ur jaded as **** if u think u know whats up in baseball. And r u really tryong to say Bond's got suspended? Cuz he didnt.

Here ya go...http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2007/12/13/sports/20071213_MITCHELL_FEATURE.html#33

Btw, it keeps getting put off because they are trying to find as much evidence as possible to convict him. And I know he didn't get suspended, but if they started testing 3 years earlier, then he would have been. So please, do your research before you start talking out of your ***. Learn how to type too.

TEXASTITAN
07-28-2010, 03:31 PM
It wont ever be broken and it's a real disrespect to the players who had the record cleanly. Every record of Bonds should be removed from the books period end of story. He disgraced baseball and put their integrity in question and in kind MLB should act like he never existed.

ntat
07-28-2010, 03:32 PM
ur crackin me up man, and again, there is no positive test on that. Dont come at me like i dont know what's been proven. You act like you know what the truth is in baseball because u looked at a website with the names on the Mitchell Report. You need to get ur facts straight man. Your assumptions and opinions, are not facts. And you looking at the mitchell report off of google, is not u having knowledge on steroids in baseball. And its not getting put off so they can amass a wealth of evidence against him, they don't have a case right now man, and that is pretty common knowledge. Its funny because you are really uneducated in the matter but have such strong opinions and an even bigger sense of righteousness about it. The ****ing mitchell report has soooooo much non-evidence its abusrd when people use that for their argument.

Lloyd Christmas
07-28-2010, 03:37 PM
We all know Bonds took steroids. He already said that he unknowingly took them. That is what the feds are going after him for. They think he knowingly took them and they won't beable to prove that. They are wasting their time.

Why are we still arguing about this? I am a Giants fan and I understand people swearing that their guy is innocent of using PED's. Lets face it though, PED's were so common that we have no idea who is innocent or not. Call me dumb if you want.

downsos
07-28-2010, 03:40 PM
Why is it that we accept the he was small and then he got big evidence for some players and not others? This topic has been beaten to death. Fact is steroids were not banned as a PED when Bonds was using. They were banned under the regular drug test and fell under every other drug that was illegal at the time. It was considered illegal but not cheating. Can't blame Bonds or other players for taking advantage of the system when nobody was willing to change it. People will allways find ways to give them an edge.

fanofclendennon
07-28-2010, 03:42 PM
in that case how do we know they weren't cheating during ruth, mantles or Arrons eras as well!!!!!!!!!!!

Mantle, Aaron, and Mays all used amphetamines to help them stay sharp during night games.

Ruth never had to face black pitchers.

Maris played in an expansion season.

It's an incredibly slippery slope you're trying to climb here.

Each era had its own black eyes.

We're faced with no other choice but to say Bonds is the home run champion, single season and career. Arod will almost certainly overtake him for his career. And in that bandbox of a park they call Philly, it wouldnt surprise me if someone hit more than 73 hrs in a season at some point.

The problem with guys like McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, and Arod is that, while they occupy legitimate places in the home run record books, we're still inclined to say, "We don't care anymore guys. Thanks for nothing."

ntat
07-28-2010, 03:42 PM
We all know Bonds took steroids. He already said that he unknowingly took them. That is what the feds are going after him for. They think he knowingly took them and they won't beable to prove that. They are wasting their time.

Why are we still arguing about this? I am a Giants fan and I understand people swearing that their guy is innocent of using PED's. Lets face it though, PED's were so common that we have no idea who is innocent or not. Call me dumb if you want.

I get what ur saying but that's not why i argue for him. I get so tired of Barry Bond's being the only guy who took steroids, and everyone knowing for a fact when they dont. Yet every ****** from Philly or ST Louis or NY before ARod got nailed thinks they know for a fact who took them and who didnt. When a guy on another team hits more hrs than ur guy, it doesnt mean they are dirty and ur guy's clean. It could just mean they are better.
And again that's wrong. He didnt say he took them and didnt know. He said he never knowingly took them.. Its similar, but that's not a confession. He said if he did, he didnt know he took them, basically.

fanofclendennon
07-28-2010, 03:46 PM
No one knows if Bonds took steroids. For all we know, he has some mysterious disease that makes your head double in size as you get older.

More likely, he somehow infected his fans with a not-so-rare "closed eyes" disease that can only be cured when wearing special prescription rose-colored glasses.

DodgerBulls
07-28-2010, 03:49 PM
K

Their HRs turned to "K".

Lloyd Christmas
07-28-2010, 03:51 PM
I get what ur saying but that's not why i argue for him. I get so tired of Barry Bond's being the only guy who took steroids, and everyone knowing for a fact when they dont. Yet every ****** from Philly or ST Louis or NY before ARod got nailed thinks they know for a fact who took them and who didnt. When a guy on another team hits more hrs than ur guy, it doesnt mean they are dirty and ur guy's clean. It could just mean they are better.
And again that's wrong. He didnt say he took them and didnt know. He said he never knowingly took them.. Its similar, but that's not a confession. He said if he did, he didnt know he took them, basically.

I hear you. My post wasn't directed only at you. It was also directed at the guy saying you are "dumb" for thinking Howard may be guilty also and anybody else that swears their guy is innocent. Nobody knows who is innocent anymore. That's all I was saying.

ntat
07-28-2010, 03:52 PM
^^
Which is exactlly what i was saying. None of u know ****

fanofclendennon
07-28-2010, 03:54 PM
I hear you. My post wasn't directed only at you. It was also directed at the guy saying you are "dumb" for thinking Howard may be guilty also and anybody else that thinks their guy is innocent. Nobody knows who is innocent anymore. That's all I was saying.

To further this point, based on the player's association aggressive resistance to any testing for PEDs prior to 6 years ago, all MLB players, whether they've been implicated or not, are up for suspicion.

It's the culture they themselves helped to create.

ntat
07-28-2010, 03:59 PM
It's probability. We don't know because HGH was not tested for. take a look at before and after photos from his days with the pirates and the giants. it's like i'm looking at two different people.

Bonds, as many of you may not remember was NOT a big time hr hitter. he had an all around game that made him a great player. But all of a sudden, a guy gets bigger, a guy gets older, and he's hitting 70 plus out? I mean probability tells you he took SOMETHING to enhance performance.
And this is something else that bothers me. Look at guys that wrok out from 20 to 40 and see howmuch bigger they become. Look how much more ur dads weigh now than when they were 20. Thats another stupid thing taken as a fact. "Well look, he lifted weights and got hella buff over 15 years. How could he get that buff in a decade and a half wihout juice?"

fanofclendennon
07-28-2010, 04:08 PM
And this is something else that bothers me. Look at guys that wrok out from 20 to 40 and see howmuch bigger they become. Look how much more ur dads weigh now than when they were 20. Thats another stupid thing taken as a fact. "Well look, he lifted weights and got hella buff over 15 years. How could he get that buff in a decade and a half wihout juice?"

If you're trying to say Bonds got bigger due to the natural aging process coupled with a regular workout routine, that's just, well, stupid.

Aging is a gradual process. Other than flabby weight gain, people do not get much bigger from year to year without some sort of chemical help, certainly not while their fit and in their early to mid 30s. You make it sound like we're comparing a picture of him at age 18 with one at age 65.

Hardly the case.

ntat
07-28-2010, 04:12 PM
If you're trying to say Bonds got bigger due to the natural aging process coupled with a regular workout routine, that's just, well, stupid.

Aging is a gradual process. Other than flabby weight gain, people do not get much bigger from year to year without some sort of chemical help, certainly not while their fit and in their early to mid 30s. You make it sound like we're comparing a picture of him at age 18 with one at age 65.

Hardly the case.

With the best diets and Training, all things he had access to, u can put on 10 to 15 lbs of muscle in a year, i think over 15 years, he was in the realm of possibility. Dont call me stupid, or try and act like I dont know what Im talking about. The natural aging process is not the sole argument i was using, try and read what I wrote. The simple fact that anyone's body can change drastically over such a long period of time, whether fromlack of exercise or great execution of exercise, or good diet, and bad diet, is my point. U cant just say look at a guy when he is young and look at him when he is older and say thats proof, cuz its not even a good "point", let alone any type of fact.

GeekInThePink
07-28-2010, 04:27 PM
cool

theslick1
07-28-2010, 04:28 PM
With the best diets and Training, all things he had access to, u can put on 10 to 15 lbs of muscle in a year, i think over 15 years, he was in the realm of possibility. Dont call me stupid, or try and act like I dont know what Im talking about. The natural aging process is not the sole argument i was using, try and read what I wrote. The simple fact that anyone's body can change drastically over such a long period of time, whether fromlack of exercise or great execution of exercise, or good diet, and bad diet, is my point. U cant just say look at a guy when he is young and look at him when he is older and say thats proof, cuz its not even a good "point", let alone any type of fact.

Must have been all that "flaxseed oil" that made his head grow about 3 hat sizes.

fanofclendennon
07-28-2010, 04:32 PM
With the best diets and Training, all things he had access to, u can put on 10 to 15 lbs of muscle in a year, i think over 15 years, he was in the realm of possibility. Dont call me stupid, or try and act like I dont know what Im talking about. The natural aging process is not the sole argument i was using, try and read what I wrote. The simple fact that anyone's body can change drastically over such a long period of time, whether fromlack of exercise or great execution of exercise, or good diet, and bad diet, is my point. U cant just say look at a guy when he is young and look at him when he is older and say thats proof, cuz its not even a good "point", let alone any type of fact.

And the size of his head?

Obviously you're not stupid but I think your hypothesis was dishonest. Bonds' body did not change size over a long period of time. It was the same with McGwire. This implies almost definitively that they were using chemicals of some sort. To conclude otherwise is either stupid or dishonest. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're just being dishonest.

ntat
07-28-2010, 04:45 PM
Its not about proving Bond's didnt take steroids. I just get irritated that people point to things that arent facts as facts over and over and over, and these guys all seem to think they are educated in the matter. None of these turds know about training, or supplements, or steroids. It just gets really old to see the same non-factual arguments against Bonds, but anyone they like without a doubt doesnt use steroids. Its ****ing stupid. Barry didnt put on 50lbs in a year I can proimise u that.

fanofclendennon
07-28-2010, 05:00 PM
Its not about proving Bond's didnt take steroids. I just get irritated that people point to things that arent facts as facts over and over and over, and these guys all seem to think they are educated in the matter. None of these turds know about training, or supplements, or steroids. It just gets really old to see the same non-factual arguments against Bonds, but anyone they like without a doubt doesnt use steroids. Its ****ing stupid. Barry didnt put on 50lbs in a year I can proimise u that.

I'm still confused with what you're trying to say.

The evidence linking Bonds with the good folks at Balco is pretty damning. Combine that with the circumstantial evidence of how we've seen Bonds change in size over a relatively small period of time and I gotta tell you, my standard of proof has been met.

But putting all that aside, if you honestly think Bonds didn't need any chemical help to peak after he tuned 35, then God Bless You my friend.

theslick1
07-28-2010, 05:04 PM
What kind of training or supplements makes your freaking head grow? Please let me know so I don't inadvertently put any of it in my coffee.

Also, Bonds shoe size went from size 10-1/2 to size 13 after he joined the Giants.

Heads and feet do not grow because of training.

ntat
07-28-2010, 05:21 PM
I'm still confused with what you're trying to say.

The evidence linking Bonds with the good folks at Balco is pretty damning. Combine that with the circumstantial evidence of how we've seen Bonds change in size over a relatively small period of time and I gotta tell you, my standard of proof has been met.

But putting all that aside, if you honestly think Bonds didn't need any chemical help to peak after he tuned 35, then God Bless You my friend.

See what Im saying, in what year did he gain all this weight at once? And being linked to Balco does not MAKE him guilty,thats not proof in the eyes of the law. Its "damning" yes, but there is still a big degree of supposition going on when u jump to saying thats proof. Im not saying i can prove he didnt, that would be silly, im just saying none of you outright know, and it gets really old.

papipapsmanny
07-28-2010, 05:34 PM
omg giants fans he did steroids get the **** over it.

theslick1
07-28-2010, 05:48 PM
See what Im saying, in what year did he gain all this weight at once? And being linked to Balco does not MAKE him guilty,thats not proof in the eyes of the law. Its "damning" yes, but there is still a big degree of supposition going on when u jump to saying thats proof. Im not saying i can prove he didnt, that would be silly, im just saying none of you outright know, and it gets really old.

Bonds admits to using a "cream" and some "clear" substance that his trainer gave him. Guess what those were?

Also, here's an excerpt from a Chronicle article in 2004:


Yankees outfielder Gary Sheffield, testified that while he trained with Bonds in the Bay Area before the 2002 baseball season, Bonds had arranged for him to receive "the cream," "the clear" and "red beans," which the prosecutors identified as steroid pills manufactured in Mexico.

Sheffield said he had never been told that the substances were steroids. Bonds also was using "the cream" and "the clear," Sheffield said.

"Nothing was between me and Greg," Sheffield testified. "Barry pretty much controlled everything. ... It was basically Barry (saying), 'Trust me. Do what I do.'

"... I know I've seen Greg give Barry the same thing I was taking. I didn't see him taking those red beans, but I seen him taking this (clear) and this cream here."


If you haven't read it, you should read "Game of Shadows" and then decide if you still feel like Bonds is innocent of the steroid charges.

fanofclendennon
07-28-2010, 05:50 PM
See what Im saying, in what year did he gain all this weight at once? And being linked to Balco does not MAKE him guilty,thats not proof in the eyes of the law. Its "damning" yes, but there is still a big degree of supposition going on when u jump to saying thats proof. Im not saying i can prove he didnt, that would be silly, im just saying none of you outright know, and it gets really old.

Being guilty in the eyes of the law and being guilty in the court of public opinion are two different things.

One has to do with what can be proven in a court of law beyond a reasonable doubt and the other has to do with what one chooses to believe based on common sense and the available information.

But without going tit for tat, I'm curious to hear your side of the story: How come he was hitting far home runs after age 35 than he had at age 27, 29, 30, etc? What's your take on that?

sawxfan
07-28-2010, 05:53 PM
And I thought a "court of law" and the "court of public opinion" were the same thing.

sawxfan
07-28-2010, 05:57 PM
Being guilty in the eyes of the law and being guilty in the court of public opinion are two different things.

One has to do with what can be proven in a court of law beyond a reasonable doubt and the other has to do with what one chooses to believe based on common sense and the available information.

But without going tit for tat, I'm curious to hear your side of the story: How come he was hitting far home runs after age 35 than he had at age 27, 29, 30, etc? What's your take on that?

I think he took steroids. Saying that, at age 35 I think he also worked out specifically to get bigger and stronger to increase his power numbers. When he was younger he stole bases(lots of 'em) and played great defense. At 35, his production was based purely on his bat, and what a bat it was. Steroids or not, the guy was absolutely amazing.

infernoscurse
07-28-2010, 06:02 PM
Jose Bautista will break it next year

ntat
07-28-2010, 06:06 PM
Bonds admits to using a "cream" and some "clear" substance that his trainer gave him. Guess what those were?

Also, here's an excerpt from a Chronicle article in 2004:



If you haven't read it, you should read "Game of Shadows" and then decide if you still feel like Bonds is innocent of the steroid charges.

See these are all NOT FACTS. Because Gary Sheffield Said Barry tricked him, Thats just fact lol? I cant even try and argue cuz literally all of think that circumstancial evidence makes someone without a doubt guilty. There is a big difference in someone's account and facts. I know what Barry almost certainly did, but literally none of u have a factual argument that Barry took steroids. A lot of circumstancial things and heresay. That is all im trying to point out.
If I ever heard anyone argue against Barry, and not say look at his rookie pic to thegiants pics, look at his head, this guy said he took em, id **** myself. cuz none of thats proof.

fanofclendennon
07-28-2010, 06:08 PM
See what Im saying, in what year did he gain all this weight at once? .

Probably starting in 1997, ending in 2001-2. Check it out.

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,1640086,00.html

ntat
07-28-2010, 06:10 PM
Being guilty in the eyes of the law and being guilty in the court of public opinion are two different things.

One has to do with what can be proven in a court of law beyond a reasonable doubt and the other has to do with what one chooses to believe based on common sense and the available information.

But without going tit for tat, I'm curious to hear your side of the story: How come he was hitting far home runs after age 35 than he had at age 27, 29, 30, etc? What's your take on that?

Because he got stronger and became a better hitter when approaching an at bat. Did u notice he stopped stealing as many bags after his first major injury, a knee injury. The guy was 35 not 24, his game had to evolve, he wasnt gonna steal bases anymore. Its easier to get stronger than to get faster. But because i said he got stronger, thats more factual PROOF right? lol And thats not being guilty in the court of public opinion, thats making assumptions. There's no ****ing court of public opinion.

fanofclendennon
07-28-2010, 06:10 PM
And I thought a "court of law" and the "court of public opinion" were the same thing.

I suggest you revisit law school. No one who has ever been convicted by the court of public opinion has ever gone to jail unless he was also convicted by a court of law.

Zmaster52
07-28-2010, 06:11 PM
Innocent until proven guilty.

Yanks All Day
07-28-2010, 06:11 PM
Sure, we can't say NEVER when it comes to the record, but unless the season gets longer or new supplements are developed, we can probably say it is highly unlikely that anyone will come close to 73. There are guys who have the ability (Fielder, Pujols, Howard, OMG BRYCE HARPER GOD JESUS, Gonzalez) to hit that many home runs in a season, but as we are seeing this year, it looks like 40-45 could be the most we see for a while.

By the way, if you couldn't tell, I don't believe Harper will live up to the hype.

As for Bonds, we don't have any proof to definitively say he was using. But come on, let's be real. 73 is absurd. There is no one that was can say was definitely clean, and no one who hasn't been exposed that we can say definitely used steroids, but Bonds is the closest to a sure thing that we have to a definite user.

fanofclendennon
07-28-2010, 06:12 PM
Because he got stronger and became a better hitter when approaching an at bat. The guy was 35 not 24, his game had to evolve, he wasnt gonna steal bases anymore. Its easier to get stronger than to get faster. But because i said he got stronger, thats more factual PROOF right? lol

That's fine if I were to believe that all players who get older and slower become better home run hitters because the power part of their game evolved while the speed part deteriorated.

I defy you to find one other player in baseball history whose power numbers took off after the age of 35. Go ahead.

theslick1
07-28-2010, 06:14 PM
See these are all NOT FACTS. Because Gary Sheffield Said Barry tricked him, Thats just fact lol? I cant even try and argue cuz literally all of think that circumstancial evidence makes someone without a doubt guilty. There is a big difference in someone's account and facts. I know what Barry almost certainly did, but literally none of u have a factual argument that Barry took steroids. A lot of circumstancial things and heresay. That is all im trying to point out.
If I ever heard anyone argue against Barry, and not say look at his rookie pic to thegiants pics, look at his head, this guy said he took em, id **** myself. cuz none of thats proof.

It actually is proof. Sheffield was testifying under oath in front of a grand jury. He was an eyewitness to Bonds using the cream and the clear and that's what he testified to. If you think people don't get convicted in court because of what witnesses saw and testified to, you're wrong. If you read Game of Shadows you will find other witnesses to his steroid use too. You will also find a lot of circumstantial evidence that tends to support the eyewitness accounts. At this point, I'm not sure what you would consider "proof." Would anything short of Bonds saying "I used steroids" change your mind?

superabound
07-28-2010, 06:14 PM
The moment you deal in absolutes you are going to lose. In 50 years people will probably be hitting 100 hrs a year.

ntat
07-28-2010, 06:14 PM
Probably starting in 1997, ending in 2001-2. Check it out.

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,1640086,00.html

so ur saying he gained "all that weight" in 5 years? Wow, how could he ever do that in 5 years. U just won the argument with that great point.... And according to this site, he put on 25 lbs in 5 years lol. He just blew up didnt he? 5 lbs a year lol

ntat
07-28-2010, 06:24 PM
It actually is proof. Sheffield was testifying under oath in front of a grand jury. He was an eyewitness to Bonds using the cream and the clear and that's what he testified to. If you think people don't get convicted in court because of what witnesses saw and testified to, you're wrong. If you read Game of Shadows you will find other witnesses to his steroid use too. You will also find a lot of circumstantial evidence that tends to support the eyewitness accounts. At this point, I'm not sure what you would consider "proof." Would anything short of Bonds saying "I used steroids" change your mind?

Dude, someone saying they saw something is not proof get real. And if Sheffield is mr honest, and his word is "proof" then his argument that he never knowingly took steroids is ok? But not barry's? Come on man. Thats what HE testified too. And its not that I dont think he did them, but all of u guys have NOTHING. U have 2nd hand accounts of other liars and pictures. U know what would shut me up, a test, proven to belong to Barry, that said he did it.

baseballguy247
07-28-2010, 06:26 PM
I always suspected pudge was a juicer. He had that breakdown period when he stopped the cycle. Then he got real small.

ps. all you barry supporters are really sensitive about bonds image. Mac was clean until he admitted it. Bonds ego will never let him fess up to it. As of now bonds is the HR leader like it or not. We lived threw the steroid era its something that we all need to come to terms with. When i lived in Pitt my roommate worked for the pirates and he said bonds would make the ball boy "club house boy" get him McDonald's then when he did he would throw it away and make him go get him pizza or something else. I always liked bonds as a player but fact is fact he is a ego maniac.

ntat
07-28-2010, 06:29 PM
Sure, we can't say NEVER when it comes to the record, but unless the season gets longer or new supplements are developed, we can probably say it is highly unlikely that anyone will come close to 73. There are guys who have the ability (Fielder, Pujols, Howard, OMG BRYCE HARPER GOD JESUS, Gonzalez) to hit that many home runs in a season, but as we are seeing this year, it looks like 40-45 could be the most we see for a while.

By the way, if you couldn't tell, I don't believe Harper will live up to the hype.

As for Bonds, we don't have any proof to definitively say he was using. But come on, let's be real. 73 is absurd. There is no one that was can say was definitely clean, and no one who hasn't been exposed that we can say definitely used steroids, but Bonds is the closest to a sure thing that we have to a definite user.

yes we can, they guys that got caught. AKA Positive tests, having to admit it. Thos guys FOR SURE did it. Thats proof.

Yanks All Day
07-28-2010, 06:31 PM
yes we can, they guys that got caught. AKA Positive tests, having to admit it. Thos guys FOR SURE did it. Thats proof.

Maybe I worded it incorrectly, or you misunderstood, but I said basically the only people that we can DEFINITELY say used are the ones that have been exposed.

ntat
07-28-2010, 06:35 PM
Maybe I worded it incorrectly, or you misunderstood, but I said basically the only people that we can DEFINITELY say used are the ones that have been exposed.

And thats all im trying to say. Unless they have a positive test, or have admitted it, they are not guilty in anyway. I mean since when did every one here become an omnipotent judge, that knows all about PED's and exercise science? Almost none of u are qualified in anyway to say u know what u r talking about.

theslick1
07-28-2010, 06:42 PM
Dude, someone saying they saw something is not proof get real. And if Sheffield is mr honest, and his word is "proof" then his argument that he never knowingly took steroids is ok? But not barry's? Come on man. Thats what HE testified too. And its not that I dont think he did them, but all of u guys have NOTHING. U have 2nd hand accounts of other liars and pictures. U know what would shut me up, a test, proven to belong to Barry, that said he did it.

The jails are full of people who were convicted on eyewitness testimony. You think every criminal leaves behind a video tape of the crime and a confession or in this case a bottle of urine or a blood specimen with his name on it?

ntat
07-28-2010, 06:45 PM
That doesnt make it proof man.

HowFit
07-28-2010, 06:56 PM
Dude, someone saying they saw something is not proof get real. And if Sheffield is mr honest, and his word is "proof" then his argument that he never knowingly took steroids is ok? But not barry's? Come on man. Thats what HE testified too. And its not that I dont think he did them, but all of u guys have NOTHING. U have 2nd hand accounts of other liars and pictures. U know what would shut me up, a test, proven to belong to Barry, that said he did it.

who said passing the test(s) means you're clean?

ntat
07-28-2010, 06:58 PM
who said passing the test(s) means you're clean?

it sure as **** doesnt make u guilty.

theslick1
07-28-2010, 06:58 PM
And thats all im trying to say. Unless they have a positive test, or have admitted it, they are not guilty in anyway. I mean since when did every one here become an omnipotent judge, that knows all about PED's and exercise science? Almost none of u are qualified in anyway to say u know what u r talking about.

The government has three positive test results from Bonds, dating from 2000, 2001, and 2003. The 2000 and 2001 test results have been ruled inadmissable unless Greg Anderson testifies at trial, which he probably won't do. Nevertheless, the tests do exist. The 2003 test, part of MLB's testing program, was initially negative, but it was sent to UCLA's lab to test for the designer drug THG, which was the steroid used in BALCO's "clear" and which was not detectable under MLB's testing. The test was positive for THG as well as Clomid, an estrogen suppressing drug used by steroid users post-cycle. (Manny Ramirez earned a 50 game suspension for taking a drug similar to Clomid.)

The government also has recordings of Anderson talking about how he shot Bonds up in different places so as to avoid the formation of cysts that can occur when injections are repeatedly made in the same place. These recordings were made in the Giants locker room. The person who secretly made the recordings was trying to prove to Bonds father that Barry was using steroids.

Bonds' girlfriend Kimberly Bell as well as former teammate Bobby Estalella will testify for the government that Bonds admitted his steroid use to them.

HowFit
07-28-2010, 06:58 PM
Bonds admits to using a "cream" and some "clear" substance that his trainer gave him. Guess what those were?

Also, here's an excerpt from a Chronicle article in 2004:



If you haven't read it, you should read "Game of Shadows" and then decide if you still feel like Bonds is innocent of the steroid charges.

what about that comment he made "I thought it was flaxseed oil..." Are we that stupid?

baseballguy247
07-28-2010, 06:58 PM
bonds hat size grew thats the real red flag guys.

rookie 180 lbs with a hat size of 7 1/2

last season he played 236 lbs with a hat size of ~ 9 3/4

BigBlueCrew
07-28-2010, 07:00 PM
The jails are full of people who were convicted on eyewitness testimony. You think every criminal leaves behind a video tape of the crime and a confession or in this case a bottle of urine or a blood specimen with his name on it?

The jist of the case is not whether he took steroids or not. Its whether he KNOWINGLY took them or not. Just because he took something labeled 'the cream' or 'the clear' and or 'red beans' doesn't prove squat.

Unless someone specifically told him those are roids, which I highly doubt, this case is going no where fast

HowFit
07-28-2010, 07:02 PM
bonds hat size grew thats the real red flag guys.

rookie 180 lbs with a hat size of 7 1/2

last season he played 236 lbs with a hat size of ~ 9 3/4

hgh...which isn't a steroid...should that be an acception?

baseballguy247
07-28-2010, 07:05 PM
The jist of the case is not whether he took steroids or not. Its whether he KNOWINGLY took them or not. Just because he took something labeled 'the cream' or 'the clear' and or 'red beans' doesn't prove squat.

Unless someone specifically told him those are roids, which I highly doubt, this case is going no where fast

as a athlete you need to be responsibly for what you take into your body. I guess they can all start saying i did not know my personal trainer gave it to me... common:facepalm:

baseballguy247
07-28-2010, 07:07 PM
hgh...which isn't a steroid...should that be an acception?

he got suspiciously bigger thats all i dont care what illegal supplement he took. hgh can make your head bigger.

Although much of Bonds' testimony dealt with anabolic steroids, he is also charged with having lied about taking human growth hormones. And HGH can indeed affect the size of your noggin. The hormone, which is produced by the pituitary gland, normally stimulates bone and tissue growth throughout the body. If there's too much of it, the body starts to develop an abnormal amount of flesh and bone. This affects the entire body to some degree, but in some places the chemical receptors tend to be especially sensitive. In an adult, very large doses of HGH can cause the skull to thicken and the forehead and eyebrow ridge to become especially prominent. Hands and feet also grow out of proportion with the rest of the body. Bonds claimed his hat size never grew but we all can see it clearly did. He will never admit it and we will never know. Guys it was the era of PED we have to accept it.

theslick1
07-28-2010, 07:07 PM
The jist of the case is not whether he took steroids or not. Its whether he KNOWINGLY took them or not. Just because he took something labeled 'the cream' or 'the clear' and or 'red beans' doesn't prove squat.

Unless someone specifically told him those are roids, which I highly doubt, this case is going no where fast

I know that's what the case is about. However, Giants fan is arguing that Bonds never used. I think the evidence is pretty substantial that he used. I also believe it's pretty substantial that he KNOWINGLY used, but you're right, that's an entirely different issue.

theslick1
07-28-2010, 07:10 PM
what about that comment he made "I thought it was flaxseed oil..." Are we that stupid?

Other athletes who got steroids from BALCO (Marion Jones, etc.) admitted they were told to say they were taking "flaxseed oil" if and when they were ever questioned. Bonds was just repeating the mantra.

Gigantes4Life
07-28-2010, 07:11 PM
Talk about a topic beaten to death, wow.

HowFit
07-28-2010, 07:15 PM
he got suspiciously bigger thats all i dont care what illegal supplement he took. hgh can make your head bigger.

hey read this

http://www.slate.com/id/2178288

oh believe me, I'm with ya. Hgh increase all cells in body such as muscle cells, cancers cells, ect..if you asked me I would say he injected hgh along with some of steroid compounds. To me it's obvious. And back to that guy that said it's possible to gain 50lbs and it happened over the years...50lbs of solid mass? You kidding?

FLYER-FAN
07-28-2010, 07:15 PM
unless steroids become legal.

Agree/disagree?

The most a "clean" hitter has hit in the modern era was ryan howard with 58...... 16 away from breaking the record. Kinda sad that baseballs most prestigious single season record will always have an asterisk beside it.

:facepalm:


he cheated !!.. He doesnt deserve to be in the hall of fame ...

theslick1
07-28-2010, 07:18 PM
Talk about a topic beaten to death, wow.

Threads about these topics seem to go on forever:

Bonds
Steroids
Salary Cap
DH vs. No DH

Weeducatekids
07-28-2010, 07:18 PM
No way anyone breaks Bonds single season hr record. That was a part of the steroid era with Bonds, Sosa, and Big Mac. Just like with the Golden Era of pitching where guys would win +30 games, same thing here, times have changed and that was just part of a unique era in baseball. People are going to have to accept that bonds will own that record. Now the better question is will someone CLEAN break the all time HR record?

HowFit
07-28-2010, 07:19 PM
Other athletes who got steroids from BALCO (Marion Jones, etc.) admitted they were told to say they were taking "flaxseed oil" if and when they were ever questioned. Bonds was just repeating the mantra.

yes sir...my point was do we inject flaxseed oil? :cool:

HowFit
07-28-2010, 07:22 PM
No way anyone breaks Bonds single season hr record. That was a part of the steroid era with Bonds, Sosa, and Big Mac. Just like with the Golden Era of pitching where guys would win +30 games, same thing here, times have changed and that was just part of a unique era in baseball. People are going to have to accept that bonds will own that record. Now the better question is will someone CLEAN break the all time HR record?

you mean clean break the all time clean HR record? :D

ntat
07-28-2010, 07:22 PM
The government has three positive test results from Bonds, dating from 2000, 2001, and 2003. The 2000 and 2001 test results have been ruled inadmissable unless Greg Anderson testifies at trial, which he probably won't do. Nevertheless, the tests do exist. The 2003 test, part of MLB's testing program, was initially negative, but it was sent to UCLA's lab to test for the designer drug THG, which was the steroid used in BALCO's "clear" and which was not detectable under MLB's testing. The test was positive for THG as well as Clomid, an estrogen suppressing drug used by steroid users post-cycle. (Manny Ramirez earned a 50 game suspension for taking a drug similar to Clomid.)

The government also has recordings of Anderson talking about how he shot Bonds up in different places so as to avoid the formation of cysts that can occur when injections are repeatedly made in the same place. These recordings were made in the Giants locker room. The person who secretly made the recordings was trying to prove to Bonds father that Barry was using steroids.

Bonds' girlfriend Kimberly Bell as well as former teammate Bobby Estalella will testify for the government that Bonds admitted his steroid use to them.They have test people said were bonds, i doubt his name was sitting on them and they know they were his.
and I pose another question that seems to get sidestepped. Steroids were not illegal in baseball then, and HGH wasnt illegal at all if prescribed. What if a Dr prescribed them to him and he used it to help repair his knee. How could that possibly be cheating? It wasnt illegal, wasnt breaking baseball rules, and he had a legit injury.

Gigantes4Life
07-28-2010, 07:27 PM
Threads about these topics seem to go on forever:

Bonds
Steroids
Salary Cap
DH vs. No DH

You can also throw in the "is XXX XXXXX the best pitcher in baseball?" once a week.

Those cover basically 95% of the discussion threads.

theslick1
07-28-2010, 07:53 PM
They have test people said were bonds, i doubt his name was sitting on them and they know they were his.
and I pose another question that seems to get sidestepped. Steroids were not illegal in baseball then, and HGH wasnt illegal at all if prescribed. What if a Dr prescribed them to him and he used it to help repair his knee. How could that possibly be cheating? It wasnt illegal, wasnt breaking baseball rules, and he had a legit injury.

Nice try but wrong again. Steroids were prohibited when Bonds took them. On June 7, 1991, commissioner Fay Vincent sent a memo to each team and the players union that stated:


"The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids."

In addition, steroids without a doctor's prescription were illegal under federal law. I'm pretty sure if it's illegal under federal law, it's illegal for baseball players too.

No one, not even Bonds, has ever suggested he took steroids or HGH because a doctor prescribed it so your last question is moot. Remember, it's Bonds position that he never KNOWINGLY took the drugs at all.

ntat
07-28-2010, 08:03 PM
Steroids were not on the banned list bro. And HGH isnt illegal at all.

theslick1
07-28-2010, 08:17 PM
Steroids were not on the banned list bro. And HGH isnt illegal at all.

What part of this did you miss:


"The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids."

That's from the commissioner of baseball in 1991. They were illegal, banned, prohibited, verboten, etc.

As for HGH:


21 USC 333(e) prohibits the distribution or possession with intent to distribute hGH for any use in humans other than for recognized medical reasons and pursuant to a valid prescription. Violations may be punishable by imprisonment of up to 5 years (10 years if to a person under 18 years).


So without a prescription, it is illegal.

HowFit
07-28-2010, 09:31 PM
Steroids were not on the banned list bro. And HGH isnt illegal at all.

Hgh isn't illegal? :facepalm:

ntat
07-28-2010, 10:16 PM
Hgh isn't illegal? :facepalm:

whats with the facepalm genius, its not illegal, it can be prescribed to u.

redzone11
07-28-2010, 10:34 PM
You think Howard is clean?

Hahahhahahahrrrahhahahahhahahahahaaaa. He might be, but I wouldn't bet your life on it.

Your list is wrong also, the modern era is since 1920:

Maris - 61
Ruth - 60 (154 games)
Ruth - 59 (154 games)
Foxx - 58 (154 games)
Greenberg - 58 (154 games)
Howard - 58
Griffey - 56 (twice)
Wilson - 56 (154 games)
Kiner - 56 (154 games)

Fields get smaller and smaller, rules change, strike zones change. Never say never, but you can say unlikely.

He has a twin brother who is just big as him, he is clean.

theslick1
07-28-2010, 11:51 PM
whats with the facepalm genius, its not illegal, it can be prescribed to u.

It's illegal unless you have a prescription and Bonds didn't have one.

Gary Reasons
07-28-2010, 11:59 PM
maris holds the record

misterd
07-29-2010, 12:00 AM
And thats all im trying to say. Unless they have a positive test, or have admitted it, they are not guilty in anyway. I mean since when did every one here become an omnipotent judge, that knows all about PED's and exercise science? Almost none of u are qualified in anyway to say u know what u r talking about.

They're guilty if they did it.

Courts don't determine reality, which is why they don't declare defendents "innocent", just "not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt."

As for Bonds, a person's head and neck do not grow three sizes in their mid-30s unless they are using "enhancements".

nymetsrule
07-29-2010, 12:08 AM
whats with the facepalm genius, its not illegal, it can be prescribed to u.

It is illegal if it isn't prescribed...

TEXASTITAN
07-29-2010, 12:36 AM
If you really want to be technical, Babe Ruth still holds it. Ruth hit 60 in 154 games (when that was the regular season scheduled). Maris hit 2 after his 154th game, when a 162 game schedule was implemented. So his 61 technically can have an * on it as well.

So your comparing someone playing 2 extra games in which homeruns were hit to somone who juiced his way to the record as having an astrik* by his record? Thats the lamest argument ive heard yet. Like it was maris's fault the season was extended right?

edcat209
07-29-2010, 01:56 AM
all i know is bonds was a hall of famer b4 and after roids plus he broke the record in his mid 30's he jus had more plate disciplane later on in his carreer and he took the walks!

JonnyBrav000
07-29-2010, 02:20 AM
what other record comes close to the hr record man....ill telll you nothing does

Actually the Yankees 27 world series championships blows that out of the water buddy.

JonnyBrav000
07-29-2010, 02:26 AM
Ok first off, if anyone thinks Ryan Howard is or was on performance enhancing drugs, you shouldn't talk about baseball but it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about...

Secondly, like people have said before me, you literally have no idea what the future will hold. No one knows what the game will turn into, and no one knows what kind of talent/players will be playing the game. For all we know, one power hitter can just have the season of their life and play at the right place and hit 74. Or a player can come along that hits 60+ bombs every season, with one season hitting the record... We just don't know. So to say the record will NEVER be broken means nothing, because no one knows for certain.

Either you have an intimate relationship with R.Howard or it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about.

Not saying he isn't clean, but only he knows for sure.

iam brett favre
07-29-2010, 02:38 AM
how can you say it will never be broken? 5 years down the road there could be a superstar that is better then we have ever seen before in the mlb yet.
his name....JESUS MONTERO

:p

ntat
07-29-2010, 04:13 AM
my whole point to this isnt to prove he didnt do it, its just to say none of u have any hard truths, nor do any of u really know **** about it. But since u all vilify the guy and treat him like the lone cheater in an era where none of you know who did what. U all have the same four things to say over and over and none of u ever check anyone else for having a weak argument. Yet all of u will only accept the most statistical driven saber stats in any other argument, because u all want facts facts facts, except here, in this argument.

HowFit
07-29-2010, 04:24 AM
whats with the facepalm genius, its not illegal, it can be prescribed to u.

"It can be prescribed to you" is what you should have said before saying it's illegal :clap:

shizzle09
07-29-2010, 04:31 AM
Unless Steroids become legal.

Agree/Disagree?

The most a "clean" hitter has hit in the modern era was Ryan Howard with 58...... 16 away from breaking the record. Kinda sad that baseballs most prestigious single season record will always have an asterisk beside it.

:facepalm:

ummm, sure. how the hell do we know if he was clean. HGH anyone? As far as im concerned baseball went untested up until recently with nothing testing for HGH so ANY player in the past is suspect in my eyes. Didnt really care in the first place. Until this steroid thing was blown up everyone enjoyed EVERY record they saw set and or broke.

shizzle09
07-29-2010, 04:35 AM
my whole point to this isnt to prove he didnt do it, its just to say none of u have any hard truths, nor do any of u really know **** about it. But since u all vilify the guy and treat him like the lone cheater in an era where none of you know who did what. U all have the same four things to say over and over and none of u ever check anyone else for having a weak argument. Yet all of u will only accept the most statistical driven saber stats in any other argument, because u all want facts facts facts, except here, in this argument.

:clap::clap::clap:

theslick1
07-29-2010, 09:00 AM
my whole point to this isnt to prove he didnt do it, its just to say none of u have any hard truths, nor do any of u really know **** about it. But since u all vilify the guy and treat him like the lone cheater in an era where none of you know who did what. U all have the same four things to say over and over and none of u ever check anyone else for having a weak argument. Yet all of u will only accept the most statistical driven saber stats in any other argument, because u all want facts facts facts, except here, in this argument.

Your point is that you don't want to believe Bonds used steroids even though there is substantial proof that he did:


three failed drug tests (2000, 2001, 2003)
eyewitness accounts of his steroid use
association with BALCO
admission that he used the cream and the clear
Anderson admitting on tape that he injected Bonds
unexplained physiological changes (i.e., his head and feet grew)
inexplicable increase in power numbers after age 35


Instead, you make ridiculous comments about how steroids weren't illegal even after you've been shown the commissioner's announcement that made them illegal in 1991, then you suggest that maybe Bonds had a prescription, which would be contrary to what Bonds himself has said since if he never knowingly used PEDs, he couldn't have had a prescription. I get that you like the guy and you don't want to believe he did anything wrong but it gets to a point where there is just too much evidence to ignore.

Do you want to know why Bonds is villified? It's not because anyone is stupid enough to think he was the "lone cheater." The Mitchell Report is full of cheaters. It's because of all the cheaters, he is the only one who came to hold two of baseball's most cherished records by what many consider illegitimate means. I also think public opinion is much less harsh on those guys who own up to what they did or offer some kind of apology (i.e., Giambi, Pettitte) and it's much harsher on those guys who continue to deny (i.e., Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro).

thawv
07-29-2010, 11:02 AM
Unless Steroids become legal.

Agree/Disagree?

The most a "clean" hitter has hit in the modern era was Ryan Howard with 58...... 16 away from breaking the record. Kinda sad that baseballs most prestigious single season record will always have an asterisk beside it.

:facepalm:

You don't really think Howard was clean, do you? That's crazy.

thawv
07-29-2010, 11:05 AM
Your point is that you don't want to believe Bonds used steroids even though there is substantial proof that he did:


three failed drug tests (2000, 2001, 2003)
eyewitness accounts of his steroid use
association with BALCO
admission that he used the cream and the clear
Anderson admitting on tape that he injected Bonds
unexplained physiological changes (i.e., his head and feet grew)
inexplicable increase in power numbers after age 35


Instead, you make ridiculous comments about how steroids weren't illegal even after you've been shown the commissioner's announcement that made them illegal in 1991, then you suggest that maybe Bonds had a prescription, which would be contrary to what Bonds himself has said since if he never knowingly used PEDs, he couldn't have had a prescription. I get that you like the guy and you don't want to believe he did anything wrong but it gets to a point where there is just too much evidence to ignore.

Do you want to know why Bonds is villified? It's not because anyone is stupid enough to think he was the "lone cheater." The Mitchell Report is full of cheaters. It's because of all the cheaters, he is the only one who came to hold two of baseball's most cherished records by what many consider illegitimate means. I also think public opinion is much less harsh on those guys who own up to what they did or offer some kind of apology (i.e., Giambi, Pettitte) and it's much harsher on those guys who continue to deny (i.e., Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro).

Very nicely said slick.

JAYZFAN9
07-29-2010, 12:29 PM
Who cares... in many peoples minds, Bonds doesnt even hold the record anyways .. HE WAS A CHEATER

sawxfan
07-29-2010, 01:32 PM
Maris was popping pills and Ruth had to be taking something, so, Jimmy Foxx really owns the record. I did not even mention Mcgwire and Sosa because they obviously were caught in a blast of gamma radiation like Bruce Banner.

TheGiantYankee
07-29-2010, 01:36 PM
I want Jose Bautista to break it just because it would be hilarious.

jaded01
07-29-2010, 02:09 PM
it was amphetamines before steroids and spitballs before that. people always cheat... just how the game was played. why all the morality all of a sudden? you watched the steroid years because sosa vs mcguire was incredibly entertaining. besides... it wasn't even against the rules until more recently.

and there is one player who you can say definitively 100% was clean during the whole era and is probably the best player of the era as well: greg maddux.

sawxfan
07-29-2010, 02:21 PM
it was amphetamines before steroids and spitballs before that. people always cheat... just how the game was played. why all the morality all of a sudden? you watched the steroid years because sosa vs mcguire was incredibly entertaining. besides... it wasn't even against the rules until more recently.

and there is one player who you can say definitively 100% was clean during the whole era and is probably the best player of the era as well: greg maddux.

How can you say he was 100% clean? You start with your first paragraph that challenges our strange moral stance against PEDs(and I agree with you) and then you say everyone was dirty except Maddux.

theslick1
07-29-2010, 02:33 PM
it was amphetamines before steroids and spitballs before that. people always cheat... just how the game was played. why all the morality all of a sudden? you watched the steroid years because sosa vs mcguire was incredibly entertaining. besides... it wasn't even against the rules until more recently.

and there is one player who you can say definitively 100% was clean during the whole era and is probably the best player of the era as well: greg maddux.

Depends on what you mean by "recent." It has been against the rules since at least 1991.

HowFit
07-29-2010, 02:47 PM
How can you say he was 100% clean? You start with your first paragraph that challenges our strange moral stance against PEDs(and I agree with you) and then you say everyone was dirty except Maddux.

lol..Maddux on roids...that's extremely doubtful

JDMac80
07-29-2010, 02:48 PM
modern era is like 80's until now

The rest of us call it the steroid era :facepalm:

sawxfan
07-29-2010, 03:11 PM
lol..Maddux on roids...that's extremely doubtful

They can help you bounce back from injury more easily, they do not just make you look like the Hulk. He probably did not, but I would not completely rule out the possibility.

Bike riders have been involved with doping and PEDs. They help overall endurance and aerobic capacity, two things that could very much help a pitcher. Did he definitely not take PEDs because he looks smart and he does not look like Lou Ferirgno?