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baseballguru3
07-25-2010, 11:33 PM
*with one exception, do not rank OPS.

1) OBP

2) Home Runs

3) Steals

4) Slugging

5) Batting average

6) RBI

sexicano31
07-25-2010, 11:35 PM
They all kinda suck but OBP is by far and away more important than the rest

DanielC
07-25-2010, 11:36 PM
OBP
K's
W's
HR's

flea
07-25-2010, 11:36 PM
1) True Average
2) WARP3
3) OBP
4) Other inferior sabremetric stats
5) Slugging percentage
6) Counting stats

McPeak92
07-25-2010, 11:46 PM
how is steals more important than RBI's, Slugging%, and avg?

Jeffy25
07-25-2010, 11:51 PM
*with one exception, do not rank OPS.

1) OBP

2) Home Runs

3) Steals

4) Slugging

5) Batting average

6) RBI

OBP
SLUG
BA
HR
Steals
RBI

long ball
07-25-2010, 11:52 PM
*with one exception, do not rank OPS.

1) OBP

2) Home Runs

3) Steals

4) Slugging

5) Batting average

6) RBI

Of the stats you listed

slugging
obp
home runs
steals
ba
rbi

McPeak92
07-25-2010, 11:56 PM
anybody who values steals please leave.

fifajade5
07-25-2010, 11:58 PM
I think an RBI is more important than a steal. A steal essentially = a double or triple. Like if u hit a single and then steal second it is like hitting a double. Getting a hit while someone is on base is more valuable then getting on base (i know you need the baserunner to get the RBI) But a solo HR is an RBI too.

long ball
07-26-2010, 12:00 AM
anybody who values steals please leave.

Steals show more talent than RBI.

McPeak92
07-26-2010, 12:03 AM
Steals show more talent than RBI.
speed doesn't equal talent. If anything steal% is a better stat cause you could be one of those players that like stealing bases to stuff your own stat sheet and get picked off a lot in situations where steals aren't necessary(see Jose Reyes 2007.)

long ball
07-26-2010, 12:07 AM
speed doesn't equal talent.

It takes athletic ability to be fast. In most cases, it takes athletic ability to be a talented offensive baseball player.

McPeak92
07-26-2010, 12:08 AM
It takes athletic ability to be fast. In most cases, it takes athletic ability to be a talented offensive baseball player.

so than i guess Juan Castro is the more talented offensive player than Prince Fielder. I mean because he is more athletic and all.

dolfan720
07-26-2010, 12:12 AM
RBIs>>>>>the rest

long ball
07-26-2010, 12:12 AM
so than i guess Juan Castro is the more talented offensive player than Prince Fielder. I mean because he is more athletic and all.

Where did I imply that at all? I ranked slugging as the most important offensive stat listed. Steals were only ranked above batting average and rbi.

Gigantes4Life
07-26-2010, 12:12 AM
OBP
SLG

The rest don't tell you much unless you show PA, CS, etc.

McPeak92
07-26-2010, 12:16 AM
Where did I imply that at all? I ranked slugging as the most important offensive stat listed. Steals were only ranked above batting average and rbi.

I'm saying athleticism has 1.2 percent, to do with offensive production. See great hitters such as Dunn, Mauer, Howard, Fielder, Manny etc.

long ball
07-26-2010, 12:19 AM
I'm saying athleticism has 1.2 percent, to do with offensive production. See great hitters such as Dunn, Mauer, Howard, Fielder, Manny etc.

Coordination, strength, and fast twitch muscle fiber play only 1.2% of offensive ability? I find that hard to believe. That would leave most of the other 98.8% to luck.

McPeak92
07-26-2010, 12:28 AM
I guess thats if you consider strength and coordination an athletic atribute. For example, Papi is strong, Papi is not an athlete. But that goes back to the original argument about steals being important and I KNOW coordination, strength and fast twitch muscle fiber don't have anything to do with steals. Unless you think you need +coordination to run a straight 90 foot line.

whitesoxfan83
07-26-2010, 12:31 AM
*with one exception, do not rank OPS.

1) OBP

2) Home Runs

3) Steals

4) Slugging

5) Batting average

6) RBI

Of these 6...

OBP
SLG

HR

BA


SB

RBI

Zmaster52
07-26-2010, 12:38 AM
I feel stupid but can somebody explain to me why Rbis are last on like all the lists?

Jeffy25
07-26-2010, 12:42 AM
steals are over valued, they have little value in winning games, in fact, they create the opportunity for additional outs.

Jeffy25
07-26-2010, 12:43 AM
I feel stupid but can somebody explain to me why Rbis are last on like all the lists?

i'll quote a good example once again, shared with me by a friend


in 1986 McGee drove in 16% of the runners on base when he batted
in 1988 McGee drove in 14% of the runners on base when he batted
in 1987 McGee drove in 17% of the runners on base when he batted

So, a slight improvement in the percent of runners he was able to drive in.

BUT

in 1986 McGee had 291 runners on base. If he had driven in 17% (instead of 16%) he would have increased his RBI by about 3 RBI giving him 51 RBI
in 1988 McGee had 369 runners on base. If he had driven in 17% (instead of 14%) he would have increased his RBI by about 11 RBI giving him 61 RBI
in 1987 McGee had 544 runners on base.

That's why he had 100 RBI in 1987

RBI's have very little value to a player when it comes to player evaluation.

It is all about men getting on base in front of them.

baseballguru3
07-26-2010, 12:46 AM
That is a good post.

Prince Feilder for example has had terrible luck with risp.... he has only hit 1 homer with runners on base the whole year I believe!!! all the rest are solo bombs.

Zmaster52
07-26-2010, 12:47 AM
i'll quote a good example once again, shared with me by a friend



RBI's have very little value to a player when it comes to player evaluation.

It is all about men getting on base in front of them.

ahh I see. Thank you...I was kinda confused :hide:

Gigantes4Life
07-26-2010, 01:02 AM
steals are over valued, they have little value in winning games, in fact, they create the opportunity for additional outs.

Steals are overvalued, but I wouldn't say SB% isn't.

Jeffy25
07-26-2010, 01:04 AM
Steals are overvalued, but I wouldn't say SB% isn't.

I agree

bosox3431
07-26-2010, 01:27 AM
speed doesn't equal talent. If anything steal% is a better stat cause you could be one of those players that like stealing bases to stuff your own stat sheet and get picked off a lot in situations where steals aren't necessary(see Jose Reyes 2007.)

And speed dosent equal SB's either. The fastest man in the owrld couldnt steal bases if he didnt have good timing and able to read a pitcher.

Benny21
07-26-2010, 01:40 AM
wOBA
wRC
OBP
BABIP
SLG

bosox3431
07-26-2010, 01:42 AM
wOBA
wRC
OBP
BABIP
SLG

WPA is up there to I believe, not sure if its really considered an offensive stat though

Benny21
07-26-2010, 01:43 AM
WPA is up there to I believe, not sure if its really considered an offensive stat though

Yeah, I don't think it qualifies as an offensive stat

Gigantes4Life
07-26-2010, 01:44 AM
wOBA
wRC
OBP
BABIP
SLG

wRC is simply the counting staf of wOBA.

Honestly, wOBA is all you really need as long as you throw in SB and CS to the equation.

Benny21
07-26-2010, 01:48 AM
wRC is simply the counting staf of wOBA.

Honestly, wOBA is all you really need as long as you throw in SB and CS to the equation.

I know wRC is just the calculation of wOBA into runs, but it (in my opinion at least) has saved me a lot of time and I view it as very valuable.

ntat
07-26-2010, 01:57 AM
Steals show more talent than RBI.

yeah but chicks dig the longball... None of them are sittin around goin man, ichiro's wOBA and WPA is so sick i wanna S his D.

Phelps89
07-26-2010, 02:00 AM
*with one exception, do not rank OPS.

1) OBP

2) Home Runs

3) Steals

4) Slugging

5) Batting average

6) RBI

1. OBP
2. Home runs
3. Slugging
4. Average
5. RBI
6. Steals

long ball
07-26-2010, 03:18 PM
So OPS is a a pretty good stat when you want to see how good of an offensive player some one is (not as good as wOBA, but still decent). I think most people would agree with that. In most situations a player's slugging percentage is higher than their obp, therefore it makes up a larger portion of their ops. So shouldn't slugging be more valued than obp?

cantstopthee
07-26-2010, 03:30 PM
risp avg i like :) cabby does a nice job

VRP723
07-26-2010, 03:30 PM
yeah but chicks dig the longball... None of them are sittin around goin man, ichiro's wOBA and WPA is so sick i wanna S his D.

Epic post.

Zmaster52
07-26-2010, 03:31 PM
yeah but chicks dig the longball... None of them are sittin around goin man, ichiro's wOBA and WPA is so sick i wanna S his D.

LOL thats gonna be my sig :p

long ball
07-26-2010, 03:39 PM
yeah but chicks dig the longball... None of them are sittin around goin man, ichiro's wOBA and WPA is so sick i wanna S his D.

Well duh, his wOBA and WPA are about league average this season.

The_Mac22
07-26-2010, 03:53 PM
HOME RUNZ
Ribeyes

**** the rest.

Nymfan87
07-26-2010, 04:00 PM
OBP
SLG%
HR
Batting average
RBI's
Steals

Gigantes4Life
07-26-2010, 04:47 PM
So OPS is a a pretty good stat when you want to see how good of an offensive player some one is (not as good as wOBA, but still decent). I think most people would agree with that. In most situations a player's slugging percentage is higher than their obp, therefore it makes up a larger portion of their ops. So shouldn't slugging be more valued than obp?

OBP should be more valued, that's the problem with OPS.

bosox3431
07-26-2010, 09:10 PM
Ill say whichever stats make my player look better. If it's average and RBI's, then so be it.

bagwell368
07-26-2010, 09:22 PM
RBI, SB (especially w/o consideration of CS), and BA that we all learned were important as kids are all well less important then the newer stats such as: wRC, wOBA, OPS+, WARP3, etc.

Therefore class, with the bat only Dunn > Ichiro - by a comfortable margin. His BA sucks, he's painful to watch. But he is more productive, the only thing that matters. Style does not equal production.

Ian.
07-26-2010, 09:38 PM
It's weird that nobody has legitimately said HRs are the best offensive stat.

It's a guaranteed run (sometimes more.)

HR >>>>>> Any other offensive stat.

baseballguru3
07-26-2010, 09:42 PM
RBI, SB (especially w/o consideration of CS), and BA that we all learned were important as kids are all well less important then the newer stats such as: wRC, wOBA, OPS+, WARP3, etc.

Therefore class, with the bat only Dunn > Ichiro - by a comfortable margin. His BA sucks, he's painful to watch. But he is more productive, the only thing that matters. Style does not equal production.

Way to go comparing a lead off man to a clean up hitter in terms of their bat:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepa lm::facepalm::facepalm:

Ian.
07-26-2010, 09:54 PM
Way to go comparing a lead off man to a clean up hitter in terms of their bat:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepa lm::facepalm::facepalm:

Run production is run production. No matter where you hit in the lineup.

baseballguru3
07-26-2010, 10:03 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm:

chisoxfan99
07-26-2010, 10:04 PM
It's weird that nobody has legitimately said HRs are the best offensive stat.

It's a guaranteed run (sometimes more.)

HR >>>>>> Any other offensive stat.

So would you rank a guy better offensively who has 8 hr's and bats a .200 average better than a guy with 2 hr's and a .300+ average?

Ian.
07-26-2010, 10:06 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm:

Do you care to offer a rebuttal?


So would you rank a guy better offensively who has 8 hr's and bats a .200 average better than a guy with 2 hr's and a .300+ average?

Absolutely. Home runs are a productive at bat. Base hits do not always lead to runs scored.

Gigantes4Life
07-26-2010, 10:06 PM
It's weird that nobody has legitimately said HRs are the best offensive stat.

It's a guaranteed run (sometimes more.)

HR >>>>>> Any other offensive stat.

HR is the best outcome, but not the best stat.

Ian.
07-26-2010, 10:09 PM
HR is the best outcome, but not the best stat.

I'd consider a home run a stat, no?

If we're talking ratios, then I am dumb.

Gigantes4Life
07-26-2010, 10:58 PM
I'd consider a home run a stat, no?

If we're talking ratios, then I am dumb.

It's a stat, but no counting stat can be the best.

Unless you're saying you value HR total more than say OPS or wOBA.

Ian.
07-26-2010, 11:01 PM
It's a stat, but no counting stat can be the best.

Unless you're saying you value HR total more than say OPS or wOBA.

I guess I was saying I value a HR more than a walk/hit.

Gigantes4Life
07-26-2010, 11:02 PM
I guess I was saying I value a HR more than a walk/hit.

Well, that's kind of obvious.

The question wasn't what is the best outcome in any situation though.

HRs are just data, nothing more than that, part of a bigger picture.

Swishalicious
07-26-2010, 11:36 PM
It takes athletic ability to be fast. In most cases, it takes athletic ability to be a talented offensive baseball player.

Running is not that athletic of an ability. Everyone joins the track team when they are in high school (at least in the generations I know)... so I guess everyone is very talented in athletics? Heck no!

Know what teams used to do? They used to hire track runners for pinch runners... but that worked only so well because stealing bases is different from running. Knowing how to read a pitcher and how to get a good jump is important. Also, knowing what time is appropriate to run (if your team is down 7-0...why would you steal 3rd base?).

In the end, stats don't tell the whole story. This is a team sport, no one player can be a team, not even the best players. You need players who can hit for average, for power. Players with base stealing ability. Situational hitters. Guys who can bunt for basehits. Young and energized players as well as veterans who know how to play the game.

jmtapia
07-27-2010, 12:16 AM
to me OPS.

long ball
07-27-2010, 01:11 AM
OBP should be more valued, that's the problem with OPS.

Thanks for the reminder. Now that I think about it, when I was reading an article a while back on why wOBA is a more useful than OPS that was mentioned. I hardly ever reference OPS anyways, almost exclusively wOBA.

Gigantes4Life
07-27-2010, 01:34 AM
Thanks for the reminder. Now that I think about it, when I was reading an article a while back on why wOBA is a more useful than OPS that was mentioned. I hardly ever reference OPS anyways, almost exclusively wOBA.

Yeah there's no reason really to use OPS over wOBA in any situation as long as they're both available.

TheRuckus
07-27-2010, 01:53 AM
Grit
Leadership
Hustle
RBI
Batting average with RISP
Sacrifice bunts
Sacrifice flies
Grit again
Steals

Gigantes4Life
07-27-2010, 02:30 AM
You forgot gamerness.

StealingSigns
07-27-2010, 04:40 AM
Grit
Leadership
Hustle
RBI
Batting average with RISP
Sacrifice bunts
Sacrifice flies
Grit again
Steals


You forgot:

Charisma
Singing Voice
Chewing Tobacco Preference
Clubhouse Shenanigans

Manatoo
07-27-2010, 06:27 AM
wOBA
OBP
OPS

bagwell368
07-27-2010, 08:38 AM
Way to go comparing a lead off man to a clean up hitter in terms of their bat:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepa lm::facepalm::facepalm:

The choice of Dunn was made to emphasize how useless BA is compared to SLG. BTW, production is production, do you think Rickey Henderson's HR's leading off shouldn't count?

bagwell368
07-27-2010, 08:40 AM
So would you rank a guy better offensively who has 8 hr's and bats a .200 average better than a guy with 2 hr's and a .300+ average?

How about the OBP and SLG?

Hitter #1 is much better if he is .200/.400/.600 over Hitter #2 at .300/.350/.550 (assuming PA's, and leagues, parks are the same).