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View Full Version : Ricky Henderson - Could I argue....



baseballguru3
07-25-2010, 10:07 PM
That he had the as much impact on a game to game basis in his prime that anyone has ever had in the modern era, period?

sexicano31
07-25-2010, 10:08 PM
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

bagwell368
07-25-2010, 10:11 PM
RH's value was far more in OBP then his baserunning or nice SLG for a leadoff guy - if less great for a LF.

He was a crackpot teammate, and there were players (do you mean since 1920) with better OBP's and SLG, so, no, not IMO.

Someone who overvalues SB's will say yes.

JonRasty
07-25-2010, 11:12 PM
I think stolen bases are an incredibly important skill to have:

1) You have to be on base to be in a position to steal
2) Get yourself in scoring position
3) Get in the pitchers head that you will run which can lead to divided concentration

I'm sure there's more, but to think Henderson stole 1400+ bases is just astonishing. Obviously the stolen bases were a major factor in his record setting 2,295 runs as well, and that is after all the main goal when your team is at bat.

Jeffy25
07-25-2010, 11:20 PM
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

I could not understand this question

Jeffy25
07-25-2010, 11:21 PM
RH's value was far more in OBP then his baserunning or nice SLG for a leadoff guy - if less great for a LF.

He was a crackpot teammate, and there were players (do you mean since 1920) with better OBP's and SLG, so, no, not IMO.

Someone who overvalues SB's will say yes.

I agree with this.

And Bonds had more influence in every game that he played throughout his prime and into his old age than Ricky did

TheRuckus
07-25-2010, 11:21 PM
That he had the as much impact on a game to game basis in his prime that anyone has ever had in the modern era, period?

You could argue it, but you'd be wrong.

TheHoopsProphet
07-25-2010, 11:28 PM
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

what. the. ****.

jay87shot
07-25-2010, 11:40 PM
I think a couple guys have had a bigger influence but that was probably just the steriods they were on.

GyroSlurve
07-25-2010, 11:43 PM
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

mr. sexicano, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul

Moosie Doom
07-26-2010, 12:44 AM
That he had the as much impact on a game to game basis in his prime that anyone has ever had in the modern era, period?I wouldn't think so, but I'd like to see you try.

nymetsrule
07-26-2010, 01:18 AM
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Well, when they have done it far more to be 1993 it was baseball really like.

DodgerLove
07-26-2010, 01:43 AM
mr. sexicano, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul

haha dude was clearly joking.

1903
07-26-2010, 02:07 AM
Throw enough numbers at something and you could argue anything in baseball. It may not make any sense but then again arguments hardly ever do.

SquirtReynolds
07-26-2010, 02:10 AM
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

This is what I'm talking about...

thekmp211
07-26-2010, 02:20 AM
haha dude was clearly joking.

lol, go watch Billy Madison and come back to this thread.

thefeckcampaign
07-26-2010, 07:46 AM
That he had the as much impact on a game to game basis in his prime that anyone has ever had in the modern era, period?His manager Tony LaRussa?

bringinwood
07-26-2010, 04:56 PM
The first thought I had in response to this was Barry Bonds....

The last thought was the same....


I can't imagine there was an ERA in the history of baseball that had one hitter more feared by the entire major leagues than Bond's reign of terror during the 90s and early 00s ...

bagwell368
07-26-2010, 06:45 PM
I think a couple guys have had a bigger influence but that was probably just the steriods they were on.

U mean like Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and others? All with more impact and value then RH.

As for all the extra runs earned from steals, the first thing you have to do is remove value for the caught stealing. BTW, CS is a much larger negative then 1 SB. He was a great base runner, but, he was caught quite a bit too. A runner that stole 5 bases a year with 1 CS with his OBP on his teams would be quite close to RH's runs scored totals. We are not talking magntitude here.

apocalypse15
07-26-2010, 07:10 PM
what. the. ****.

Lmao that's what I said.

baseballguru3
07-26-2010, 07:13 PM
U mean like Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and others? All with more impact and value then RH.

As for all the extra runs earned from steals, the first thing you have to do is remove value for the caught stealing. BTW, CS is a much larger negative then 1 SB. He was a great base runner, but, he was caught quite a bit too. A runner that stole 5 bases a year with 1 CS with his OBP on his teams would be quite close to RH's runs scored totals. We are not talking magntitude here.

He basically made 130 singles into doubles one year. Come on now, doubles are far more important than a single....automatic scoring position right there.

bagwell368
07-31-2010, 07:56 PM
He basically made 130 singles into doubles one year. Come on now, doubles are far more important than a single....automatic scoring position right there.

This is a statement that reveals misunderstanding on your part.

Did you account for the CS?

In this era a SB is worth +.19 runs, and a CS is worth -.47 runs - or .687 - that is if a guy steals at a .687% rate - 68.7 out of 100, then the net value of that is ZERO runs (on average).

In RH's time it would be about +.27 and -.56

RH stole 130 bases - good for +35.1 runs
RH nailed 42 times - good for - 23.52 runs

So the net value in runs of his base running in 1982 was + 11.58 runs

There is a stat called RC/G - meaning if there was a lineup of 9 RH's he would be expected to average 6.0 runs per 9 inning game.

RH's best year as an overall offensive force was 1990 at an excellent 10.2 runs per game.

RH was .325/.439/.577 188 OPS+ w/ 65 SB and 10 CS in 1990

RH was .267/.398/.382 122 OPS+ w/ 130 SB and 42 CS in 1982

RH was on base 261 times in 1982, and 261 times in 1990 - but it took 136 less PA's in 1990 (20.9% less) and he scored 119 runs both years.

RH's best year for scoring runs was 1985 with 146. .314/.419/.516 w/ 80 bases with 10 CS - good for 9.3 runs per game.

Looking at other hitters:

Adam Dunn .266/.388/.569 146 OPS+ SB: 6 CS: 1 8.3 RC/G - 8.3 (well ahead of RH in 1992)

1999 Bagwell .304/.454/.591 162 OPS+ SB: 30 CS: 11 RC/G - 10.1 - 143 runs - better then all years mentioned except RH's 1990.

So there you have it. The value of SB's are determined much more by the ratio of CS. Whatever net value comes from SB's is well short of OBP & SLG - by far the most important elements for a productive offensive player.

baseballguru3
07-31-2010, 08:08 PM
FLAWED

Ricky got caught stealing the majority of time when he was on first and there were two outs. To me, if he gets caught stealing it does not cost his team -.47 runs in that situation...... the risk/reward is heavily in the favor of the reward in that situation.

bagwell368
07-31-2010, 08:42 PM
FLAWED

Ricky got caught stealing the majority of time when he was on first and there were two outs. To me, if he gets caught stealing it does not cost his team -.47 runs in that situation...... the risk/reward is heavily in the favor of the reward in that situation.

Please provide your data. Your subjective impressions so far seem very unsound frankly - designed it seems to support your opinion of the moment.

.47 is obviously a handy average of 0/1/2 out situations. By all means do the research to prove your point.

hoggin88
08-02-2010, 01:54 PM
He basically made 130 singles into doubles one year. Come on now, doubles are far more important than a single....automatic scoring position right there.

A single plus a stolen base does not have the same value as a double. The fact that you think they are equal means the basis for your entire argument, or lackthereof, is flawed.

ShockerArt
08-02-2010, 02:39 PM
FLAWED

Ricky got caught stealing the majority of time when he was on first and there were two outs. To me, if he gets caught stealing it does not cost his team -.47 runs in that situation...... the risk/reward is heavily in the favor of the reward in that situation.

If the majority of times he was caught was with 2 outs, attempting to steal 2nd, then he must have also run more often in those situations. This would mean that a majority of his successes were 2nd base w/ 2 outs, which doesn't add as much value as other situations.

Unless, of course, you're implying that opposing catchers had superpowers when there was 2 outs w/ a runner on first. In that case, Ricky got caught at a higher rate when stealing under those conditions. If that's the case, then he should have stopped attempting to steal 2nd with 2 outs.

todu82
08-15-2010, 01:14 PM
Henderson was a good player, we'll probably never see another guy steal bases like him but when it comes to being an all-time great then Henderson isn't there.