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J_M_B
07-21-2010, 11:00 PM
Magic Johnson joins the cavalcade of those saying, essentially, hey LeBron James, real men don't play with superstars.

"We didn't think about it 'cause that's not what we were about," Johnson said at Baruch College in New York, according to Bloomberg News. "From college, I was trying to figure out how to beat Larry Bird."

This past weekend, Jordan said at a celebrity golf event that he never would have played with Johnson or Bird, his two main rivals during his playing days.

"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry , called up Magic [Johnson] and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,'" Jordan said after playing in a celebrity golf tournament in Nevada. The interview aired on the NBC telecast of the event. "But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."


TrueHoop reader Mike, however, takes special exception to the idea that Johnson would stick with a mediocre roster over playing with superstars. He e-mails:

As much as I admire and respect these players, it becomes hard to take them seriously when none of them had situations comparable to LeBron, and all of the them got to play with other great, Top-50 All-Time players. The quest to play with other elite talent is basically universal amongst stars, be it Wilt going to join Hal Greer and later Jerry West and Elgin Baylor or all the way up to Kobe openly flirting with the Bulls and Clippers and threatening trade demands until the Lakers acquired Pau Gasol.

The fact that LeBron simply exercised his rights as a free agent to leave Cleveland to do what countless other players have done, rather than demand trades or refuse to play for the team that drafted him, should not be held against him.

I'm not even a fan of LeBron, but at this point I think he's getting dumped on pretty unfairly.


And in the case of Magic Johnson, Mike has done his homework. He found a Mike Downey L.A. Times article from 1991:

Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

"I'd have stayed in school," he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. "A coin toss changed the course of my whole life." Chicago called heads in a 1979 coin flip with Los Angeles for the No. 1 pick in the NBA college draft. It came up tails.

Johnson signed with the Lakers after his sophomore year of college and proceeded to win five championships. The Bulls picked second, took UCLA's David Greenwood and have won no championships.

"I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. [B]"The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers."


Then Mike gets to comparing the Lakers who played with Johnson in his first seven years to the Cavaliers who played with James over the same period. Johnson's teammates, in aggregate, had:

* Two first team All-Rookie selections (Byron Scott, James Worthy)
* 11 All-Star appearances (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar seven times, Norm Nixon twice, Worthy, Jamaal Wilkes)
* Four All-NBA first team selections (Abdul-Jabbar)
* Two All-NBA second team selections (Abdul-Jabbar)
* Five All-Defensive first team selections (Michael Cooper three times, Abdul-Jabbar twice)
* Four All-Defensive second team selections (Cooper three times, Abdul-Jabbar once)
* One MVP Award (Abdul-Jabbar)
* In addition, Abdul-Jabbar, Worthy, Wilkes, Nixon, and Cooper all got votes for MVP at one point in time or the other during Magic's first seven years, and Cooper won defensive player of the year in Johnson's eighth year.


Mike does a similar analysis on James' Cavs' rosters:

* Zero first team All-Rookie Selections
* Two All-Star game appearances (Mo Williams, Zydrunas llgauskas)
* Zero All-NBA first team selection
* Zero All-NBA second team selections
* Zero All-Defensive first team selections
* One All-Defensive second team selection (Anderson Vareajo)
* Zero MVP Awards


Mike adds, in conclusion:

In order to have a situation even comparable to Magic's, LeBron would have needed to be drafted onto, say, Tim Duncan's team (to parallel Abdul-Jabbar), played the last six years with a prime Bruce Bowen (to parallel Michael Cooper), and had the Cavs draft Danny Granger in his third year (as a parallel to Worthy), and that's ignoring guys like Scott/Wilkes/McAdoo etc.

I mean, let's be real, if LeBron had been in a situation like that does anyone doubt that he would have stayed? That he would already have multiple titles and that we'd be talking about his place amongst the top 10-15 players of all-time instead of dumping on his competitive fire? Magic had it easy, which make his comments seem absolutely ridiculous.


I'll acknowledge there's a chicken and egg thing here. I can hear the argument now: If James had been a better leader, then the Cavaliers would have won more titles which would have earned his teammates more accolades. Even leaving aside entirely the reality that James has been about as productive as any player in NBA history, let's concede that point, and merely say: It's still not even close.

In fact, there's a debate to be had about whether James' current SuperFriends team in Miami is as good as the one Johnson played for. Is Dwyane Wade more valuable than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar? It's an insane question without a real answer, but I think we can agree there are strong cases to be made on both sides of the equation, and though Wade has a much better PER (around 30 last season) Abdul-Jabbar's was still insanely high in the mid-20s through Johnson's first seven seasons, and Abdul-Jabbar almost never missed a game.

What it really comes down to is that Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson can say they wouldn't have stooped to seeking out teammates as good as Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. But bear in mind they also never had to confront the reality of seven years with the kinds of rosters James played on in Cleveland.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/18462/magic-johnson-sought-elite-teammates-too

J_M_B
07-21-2010, 11:01 PM
Sorry if this has already been posted, thought it was a good read.

Hawkeye15
07-21-2010, 11:05 PM
Magic won a championship as a rookie. His frame of reference on LeBron's situation is of no consequence, despite me agreeing with much of what he says.
complete post JMB. Nice job

SupeUnagi
07-21-2010, 11:07 PM
its been said before since he joined the heat
there's really no logic that disputes it, but no one cares

its easier to bash lebron and big up jordan

Baller1
07-21-2010, 11:09 PM
Great read. Great points.

I'm still on your side LeBron, one of the few left.

Wade>You
07-21-2010, 11:10 PM
Kettle, meet Pot.

daleja424
07-21-2010, 11:11 PM
gotcha magic. everyone wants to play with good players...its just more fun.

hugepatsfan
07-21-2010, 11:12 PM
Magic's situation is totally different. Magic was a rookie. He's talking about the thought of him teaming up w/ Bird WHEN THEY BOTH REACHED ELITE STATUS.

SupeUnagi
07-21-2010, 11:13 PM
"i wouldve never joined magic and those guys!"

"ill just stick here and slum it out with my 3 hall of fame teammates. thats what the game is all about, doin it by yourself!"

xbrackattackx
07-21-2010, 11:14 PM
Sorry if this has already been posted, thought it would not make Lebron look a little better.


Fixed.

SupeUnagi
07-21-2010, 11:14 PM
Magic's situation is totally different. Magic was a rookie. He's talking about the thought of him teaming up w/ Bird WHEN THEY BOTH REACHED ELITE STATUS.

why leave something good for something that is equally good?

hyb152
07-21-2010, 11:15 PM
Great read. Great points.

I'm still on your side LeBron, one of the few left.

I am too, simply for the fact that he was given **** teammates and then one of those **** teammates slept with his mom. Other than that, I could care less about Lebron. I'm just against these other fans who are too oblivious to the entire situation and think lebron "betrayed" the cavs. :laugh: betrayed... right...:eyebrow:

J_M_B
07-21-2010, 11:16 PM
Fixed.

:confused:

I don't care how other people judge LeBron..

Henry Abbott made some great points and I thought I would share it.

sportsobsessor
07-21-2010, 11:16 PM
haha, what a hypocrite

hyb152
07-21-2010, 11:16 PM
Anyways, magic was right to go play with another star. I don't blame James one bit, especially with the teams he's had the past few years.

Starting Cavs backcourt in the 2007 NBA Finals:
Eric Snow
Jiri Welsch


Nuff said.

HoopsDrive
07-21-2010, 11:17 PM
Great read.

DCSportsIsPain
07-21-2010, 11:19 PM
The logic is flawed. Magic didn't leave the team that drafted him to hook up with Bird and Clyde in another city. Being drafted by a team with talent and colluding are entirely different things. No one is investigating the Heat for obvious tampering. There is no way this was all planned after the moratorium expired. The situations are entirely different. Magic, Bird, Jordan were drafted by and remained with the teams that drafted them. They never even thought of leaving for the purpose of winning elsewhere. Leave it to BSPN to draw a parallel where there is none.

LeWade>Kobe
07-21-2010, 11:28 PM
The logic is flawed. Magic didn't leave the team that drafted him to hook up with Bird and Clyde in another city. Being drafted by a team with talent and colluding are entirely different things. No one is investigating the Heat for obvious tampering. There is no way this was all planned after the moratorium expired. The situations are entirely different. Magic, Bird, Jordan were drafted by and remained with the teams that drafted them. They never even thought of leaving for the purpose of winning elsewhere. Leave it to BSPN to draw a parallel where there is none.

:confused: What are you saying?

Magic said if he wasn't drafted to Kareem's (Top 3-5 player at time) Lakers he would have selfishly stayed in school and waited out until he had a better opportunity. LOL Did Lebron ever consider going to college to avoid the unbearable situation in CLE? Did he ever demand to be traded? The only reason everyone hates him now is because he never gave any kind of indication he wanted out of the horrific situation there. Then he left. :clap:

still1ballin
07-21-2010, 11:30 PM
Heat fans vs everybody else
..
..
..
..

can I get a drum roll!!

Jahari Kavi
07-21-2010, 11:32 PM
which is why magic and jordan are old bitter hypocrites......people who actually "follow" the game know what "really" happened and don't get caught up in this entire "we were different in the 80s" facade that is being thrown around.............................Magic inherited a great team................he's the biggest hypocrite of them all...and I say that as a Magic fan.....

ldc62
07-21-2010, 11:32 PM
Good read

ROSEBULL
07-21-2010, 11:33 PM
Kobe's high school team wasn't winning NBA championships, so he decided to go win some with shaq

xbrackattackx
07-21-2010, 11:34 PM
Heat fans vs everybody else
..
..
..
..

can I get a drum roll!!

:rimshot:

iggypop123
07-21-2010, 11:36 PM
nobody is disputing whether somebody needs help. the thing about lebron is he will become "the help" not the man to get the help

FarOutIos
07-21-2010, 11:37 PM
Magic's situation is totally different. Magic was a rookie. He's talking about the thought of him teaming up w/ Bird WHEN THEY BOTH REACHED ELITE STATUS.

I'm not even a Heat or Lebron fan... but come one dude. That's a weak argument. Magic was just as bad, if not worse. He hadn't even proven himself yet, and he was trying to manipulate the situation.

Sounds kinda like Eli Manning back in the day... and everyone thought of him as a baby for his behavior.

still1ballin
07-21-2010, 11:40 PM
:rimshot:

:dance:

shizzle09
07-21-2010, 11:40 PM
The logic is flawed. Magic didn't leave the team that drafted him to hook up with Bird and Clyde in another city. Being drafted by a team with talent and colluding are entirely different things. No one is investigating the Heat for obvious tampering. There is no way this was all planned after the moratorium expired. The situations are entirely different. Magic, Bird, Jordan were drafted by and remained with the teams that drafted them. They never even thought of leaving for the purpose of winning elsewhere. Leave it to BSPN to draw a parallel where there is none.

not understanding your logic. it's quite clear. Magic saying he would never call Bird up to play with him is pretty ******** considering we all know who he left college to play with. He didnt need to call Bird to team up as he was already on a great team. his comment says it all

"I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers."

They accomplished the same thing in different ways. Joining a stacked team. Magic's current lakers are winning titles with a near 90 mil payroll while the cap is 58ish. Are the lakers not completely stacked right now??? Sure thing Magic, Lebron doesnt have the right to join a better team than the one he was playing on in order to win a title. :rolleyes:

Jahari Kavi
07-21-2010, 11:41 PM
nobody is disputing whether somebody needs help. the thing about lebron is he will become "the help" not the man to get the help

no one knows this....there is a reason why the guy was the most sought after free agent..............for all we know he can put up MVP type numbers and "lead" the Heat to a title......

ink
07-21-2010, 11:42 PM
The logic is flawed. Magic didn't leave the team that drafted him to hook up with Bird and Clyde in another city. Being drafted by a team with talent and colluding are entirely different things. No one is investigating the Heat for obvious tampering. There is no way this was all planned after the moratorium expired. The situations are entirely different. Magic, Bird, Jordan were drafted by and remained with the teams that drafted them. They never even thought of leaving for the purpose of winning elsewhere. Leave it to BSPN to draw a parallel where there is none.

Yup. 100% agree.

Somehow people miss the red bolded part. That is what these HOFers have been saying all along. Nothing more. It's a significant point.

hyb152
07-21-2010, 11:43 PM
not understanding your logic. it's quite clear. Magic saying he would never call Bird up to play with him is pretty ******** considering we all know who he left college to play with. He didnt need to call Bird to team up as he was already on a great team. his comment says it all

"I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers."

They accomplished the same thing in different ways. Joining a stacked team. Magic's current lakers are winning titles with a near 90 mil payroll while the cap is 58ish. Are the lakers not completely stacked right now??? Sure thing Magic, Lebron doesnt have the right to join a better team than the one he was playing on in order to win a title. :rolleyes:



:clap:



And another thing, Lebron and Wade/Bosh are good friends and were never rivals where as Bird and Magic were always rivals and even played eachother in the national championship in college. So it's understandable they wouldn't team up. They may be friends now, but they certainly weren't back then. They respected eachother as players, but that doens't mean they'd team up. Lebron and Wade/Bosh has never been a rivalry.

shizzle09
07-21-2010, 11:43 PM
which is why magic and jordan are old bitter hypocrites......people who actually "follow" the game know what "really" happened and don't get caught up in this entire "we were different in the 80s" facade that is being thrown around.............................Magic inherited a great team................he's the biggest hypocrite of them all...and I say that as a Magic fan.....

THIS! couldnt have said it better myself. Magic has no room to say anything.

hugepatsfan
07-21-2010, 11:44 PM
I'm not even a Heat or Lebron fan... but come one dude. That's a weak argument. Magic was just as bad, if not worse. He hadn't even proven himself yet, and he was trying to manipulate the situation.

Sounds kinda like Eli Manning back in the day... and everyone thought of him as a baby for his behavior.

I didn't say Magic was right. I just said that it's a different situation. The issue people have with Lebron is an elite player IN HIS PRIME leaving to join another elite player. That would be like Magic joining Bird. Magic had not reached the height of his success when he joined Kareem. Now, a rookie manipulating the NBA is not great either. But that's a different argument - that's all I'm saying.

ink
07-21-2010, 11:45 PM
which is why magic and jordan can speak with credibility......

Fixed.

iggypop123
07-21-2010, 11:45 PM
no one knows this....there is a reason why the guy was the most sought after free agent..............for all we know he can put up MVP type numbers and "lead" the Heat to a title......

whether its true or not its not perception. heck james worthy was amazing in game 7 but magic still gets regarded as the man of that team. lebron's status as sidekick has already been established by many this offseason. people determine a guy's legacy more than the player.

shizzle09
07-21-2010, 11:47 PM
:clap:



And another thing, Lebron and Wade/Bosh are good friends and were never rivals where as Bird and Magic were always rivals and even played eachother in the national championship in college. So it's understandable they wouldn't team up. They may be friends now, but they certainly weren't back then. They respected eachother as players, but that doens't mean they'd team up. Lebron and Wade/Bosh has never been a rivalry.

exactly, which is why Jordan's opinion on this was a lot more reasonable than Magic's. Jordan at least made reference to how the times are different now with players being all buddy buddy.

SupeUnagi
07-21-2010, 11:47 PM
whether its true or not its not perception. heck james worthy was amazing in game 7 but magic still gets regarded as the man of that team. lebron's status as sidekick has already been established by many this offseason. people determine a guy's legacy more than the player.

without playing one game, huh

ok

Jahari Kavi
07-21-2010, 11:48 PM
What it really comes down to is that Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson can say they wouldn't have stooped to seeking out teammates as good as Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. But bear in mind they also never had to confront the reality of seven years with the kinds of rosters James played on in Cleveland.

#ArgumentOverWith

#CloseThread

ink
07-21-2010, 11:49 PM
#ArgumentOverWith

#CloseThread

Hardly conclusive enough. Their points still stand. See above.

_KB24_
07-21-2010, 11:49 PM
Wow, the heights ESPN would go to make Lebron look like the Golden Boy. The comparison of the two different situations does not even warrant a debate.

Jahari Kavi
07-21-2010, 11:50 PM
whether its true or not its not perception. heck james worthy was amazing in game 7 but magic still gets regarded as the man of that team. lebron's status as sidekick has already been established by many this offseason. people determine a guy's legacy more than the player.

he's a sidekick??? lol...how many games have you seen this Heat team play?????....I tell you what if Lebron James has an "okay" season then come back to me this time next year and you can say he's a "sidekick"...but until that happens it's insane to call the guy a sidekick..............your argument is #flawed

gbrl
07-21-2010, 11:50 PM
it is a good read

Byronicle
07-21-2010, 11:51 PM
ummmm Every player he compared to the situation of lebron joining the Heat had one thing in common, including himself THEY PAIRED UP WITH A SUPERSTAR, NOT MAKE A TRIO OF SUPERSTARS

jeez, Jordan said would he call up both Magic and Larry to play with him? No

Magic said he wanted to play with Kareem, JUST KAREEM, and every duo he named I get it because technically Jordan had a duo with Pippen, but people...THIS IS A TRIO, a big fat hairy TRIO

SupeUnagi
07-21-2010, 11:52 PM
still waiting to see someone rival that with logic instead of just saying its not true

Byronicle
07-21-2010, 11:53 PM
not a DUO

a friggen fat-girl on a tricycle TRIO!!!

SupeUnagi
07-21-2010, 11:54 PM
please dont tell me youre a troll
if you are, then you are not a good one and should be ashamed to represent trolldom

td0tsfinest
07-21-2010, 11:56 PM
I found this to be a poor comparison. It was a decent read but it shouldn't be winning over anyone.

Byronicle
07-21-2010, 11:57 PM
please dont tell me youre a troll
if you are, then you are not a good one and should be ashamed to represent trolldom

explain to me how I am trolling? people are saying this is true this true that.

hello Magic compared Lebron/Wade/Bosh w/Kareem+Magic or Jerry+Elgin or...

this guys are at the peak of their prime, were these pairs at their peak? or on the other side? Because i dunno from what I recalled when Magic played with Kareem, people said that Kareem wasn't as dominate as he was when he was at his ''PRIME''

dont call me a troll, please dont I am much better lookign than a troll. At least call me Frodo

SupeUnagi
07-21-2010, 11:58 PM
cool story, bro

Byronicle
07-21-2010, 11:59 PM
I found this to be a poor comparison. It was a decent read but it shouldn't be winning over anyone.

I KNOOOOOOOOOOOOOW GOD.

people are saying good read...GOOD read what?!?! Magic is comparing players who PAIRED up with the Miami Heat Big 3. And hello!? Did these players in the past make soo much drama, have a 1 hour special to announce where they would go? No, these guys are attention whores, nothing like the competitive monsters Larry, Magic and Michael were back in the day

Jahari Kavi
07-21-2010, 11:59 PM
Wow, the heights ESPN would go to make Lebron look like the Golden Boy. The comparison of the two different situations does not even warrant a debate.

no one is making him look like a golden boy....some of the ESPN analyst have dogged him out......the guy is making obvious points that any "real" basketball fan without extreme hatred for james would notice.....Magic sounds like a moron who knows nothing about basketball when he makes statements like the one he made......HE PLAYED WITH ONE OF THE GREATEST PLAYERS EVER! lol......on top of that he admitted that he would've dodged the draft if he would've had to go to a team full of scrubs and pull them up from the dirt...............................as much as I'm a diehard rockets fan, I'm actually hoping the Heat win it all next year, because of some of the down right absurd comments that have been coming out from fans, the media, former players, etc......


THEY PAIRED UP WITH A SUPERSTAR, NOT MAKE A TRIO OF SUPERSTARS


Big Game James = Chris Bosh



Look I like Chris Bosh's game, but let's not act like the guy is Karl Malone in his prime..........

Byronicle
07-22-2010, 12:00 AM
cool story, bro

and that's the only intelligent thing you got to say. I think you deserve a round of applause ;)

Jahari Kavi
07-22-2010, 12:01 AM
explain to me how I am trolling? people are saying this is true this true that.

hello Magic compared Lebron/Wade/Bosh w/Kareem+Magic or Jerry+Elgin or...

this guys are at the peak of their prime, were these pairs at their peak? or on the other side? Because i dunno from what I recalled when Magic played with Kareem, people said that Kareem wasn't as dominate as he was when he was at his ''PRIME''

dont call me a troll, please dont I am much better lookign than a troll. At least call me Frodo

Kareem may not have been at his peak for some of the time span, but he was still a top 5 talent in the league......if you go back to the 80s there aren't too many top level stars that you're taking over kareem.

b0nk
07-22-2010, 12:02 AM
a college draftee wanting to play with a superstar is not the same as an already established superstar teaming up with another superstar

ink
07-22-2010, 12:04 AM
no one is making him look like a golden boy....some of the ESPN analyst have dogged him out......the guy is making obvious points that any "real" basketball fan without extreme hatred for james would notice.....

Let's not bait "real" basketball fans that disagree with you. ;) Agreeing or disagreeing with what Lebron has done does not make anyone a "hater" so let's keep the discussion clean.

Enemey
07-22-2010, 12:05 AM
a college draftee wanting to play with a superstar is not the same as an already established superstar teaming up with another superstar

Exactly :clap:

shizzle09
07-22-2010, 12:05 AM
ummmm Every player he compared to the situation of lebron joining the Heat had one thing in common, including himself THEY PAIRED UP WITH A SUPERSTAR, NOT MAKE A TRIO OF SUPERSTARS

jeez, Jordan said would he call up both Magic and Larry to play with him? No

Magic said he wanted to play with Kareem, JUST KAREEM, and every duo he named I get it because technically Jordan had a duo with Pippen, but people...THIS IS A TRIO, a big fat hairy TRIO

LMFAO. you need to do a little research my friend before you post. Jamal Wilkes avg'd 20 ppg almost every season. Norm Dixon avg'd 17 ppg. That is a solid foursome.

Byronicle
07-22-2010, 12:05 AM
no one is making him look like a golden boy....some of the ESPN analyst have dogged him out......the guy is making obvious points that any "real" basketball fan without extreme hatred for james would notice.....Magic sounds like a moron who knows nothing about basketball when he makes statements like the one he made......HE PLAYED WITH ONE OF THE GREATEST PLAYERS EVER! lol......on top of that he admitted that he would've dodged the draft if he would've had to go to a team full of scrubs and pull them up from the dirt...............................as much as I'm a diehard rockets fan, I'm actually hoping the Heat win it all next year, because of some of the down right absurd comments that have been coming out from fans, the media, former players, etc......




Big Game James = Chris Bosh



Look I like Chris Bosh's game, but let's not act like the guy is Karl Malone in his prime..........

Yea so your Team is full of dirt bags, then go to a better team like the Bulls. I am not a Bulls fan but they have a much better roster than a Lebron-less Cavalier team, but no he has to play it safe.

Bosh is definitely no Karl Malone but if you were a raptor fan watching him everyday, you know there were times when he was motivated that he was absolutely unstoppable. A 20/10 guy that is clearly rejuvenated from that stupid ''introduction'' of the Big 3 after leavin Toronto. Remember, he was 20/10 on a Raptors team, what about a Heat team with Wade, he would've looked better, but with Lebron? He is going to look awesome.

In the olympics, who played most of the minutes at center? Not dwight because he got into too much foul trouble, not boozer, BUT BOSH because he was good at defending the pick and roll. But why is it that he plays good defense when teamed up with his buddies? Maybe he tries harder because there is more reason to try harder, maybe he thought winning a Gold Medal was the closest thing he would ever get to winning a championship

ink
07-22-2010, 12:06 AM
a college draftee wanting to play with a superstar is not the same as an already established superstar teaming up with another superstar

Good point. Kind of lets the air out of this article.

LeWade>Kobe
07-22-2010, 12:08 AM
.
Big Game James = Chris Bosh



Look I like Chris Bosh's game, but let's not act like the guy is Karl Malone in his prime..........

Thank you was waiting for someone to point out the final piece of magics TRIO BIG FAT STINKIN TRIO as that other dude was saying LOL

We are both fans of teams outside of LA, CLE, CHI(they are however my 2nd team) and MIA

In all honesty I think as long as we don't make BS points or flat out lie here our opinion on this matter is worth more than the next. My name says LeWade>Kobe, but you want to know something about me? I loved watching Kobe and Shaq win their 3peat, I have watched every single game of the last 3 finals with Kobe playing in all of them. I love watching Kobe Bryant play basketball, but you know what I love even more than watching Kobe play basketball? Lebron or D Wade playing basketball. Now I get to watch both of them on the same team possibly play against Kobe in the finals.

Jahari Kavi
07-22-2010, 12:08 AM
and people forget that Kareem was MVP in Magic's rookie year

http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=ABDULKA01

http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=WORTHJA01

ink
07-22-2010, 12:09 AM
Yea so your Team is full of dirt bags, then go to a better team like the Bulls. I am not a Bulls fan but they have a much better roster than a Lebron-less Cavalier team, but no he has to play it safe.

Bosh is definitely no Karl Malone but if you were a raptor fan watching him everyday, you know there were times when he was motivated that he was absolutely unstoppable. A 20/10 guy that is clearly rejuvenated from that stupid ''introduction'' of the Big 3 after leavin Toronto. Remember, he was 20/10 on a Raptors team, what about a Heat team with Wade, he would've looked better, but with Lebron? He is going to look awesome.

In the olympics, who played most of the minutes at center? Not dwight because he got into too much foul trouble, not boozer, BUT BOSH because he was good at defending the pick and roll. But why is it that he plays good defense when teamed up with his buddies? Maybe he tries harder because there is more reason to try harder, maybe he thought winning a Gold Medal was the closest thing he would ever get to winning a championship

All good points. Especially the point that going to the Bulls would have been the move of a player with confidence who knew he had the ability to take a good team (like the Bulls) over the top.

PLAYERS FAN
07-22-2010, 12:10 AM
whether its true or not its not perception. heck james worthy was amazing in game 7 but magic still gets regarded as the man of that team. lebron's status as sidekick has already been established by many this offseason. people determine a guy's legacy more than the player.

This is what I don't get! Kareem was a one time champion with 3 MVPs before Magic came to the Lakers. But when you think of that Laker team most think it was Magic team.

Its obvious that Kareem career before Magic is better than Wade did for the Heat before Lebron. I can't see why the heat team can't end up as Lebron team.:shrug:

Byronicle
07-22-2010, 12:10 AM
LMFAO. you need to do a little research my friend before you post. Jamal Wilkes avg'd 20 ppg almost every season. Norm Dixon avg'd 17 ppg. That is a solid foursome.

says the heat fan

wait so let me get this straight because I never really heard these guys, Jamal Wilkes averaged 20ppg? Norm Nixon averaged 17 ppg? and who are the other 2? They were a foursome correct? Maybe there team had a lot of offense, look at the Phoenix suns when they had Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion and Steve Nash all averaging more or less 20ppg, did people say it was unfair? No because their style of play was to shoot and shoot like mad men.

_KB24_
07-22-2010, 12:10 AM
and people forget that Kareem was MVP in Magic's rookie year

http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=ABDULKA01

http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=WORTHJA01

Hmmm, guess Magic had nothing to do with it.

A kid wanting to go to a specific team rather than a superstar wanting to leave is completely different.

allvalleychamp
07-22-2010, 12:13 AM
Barkley also teamed with Clyde to join Hakeem in HOU...in terms of the Trio argument Bosh isn't a top 10 player in the league although he is really really good so its a Very good duo with a very good role player

Byronicle
07-22-2010, 12:14 AM
Barkley also teamed with Clyde to join Hakeem in HOU...in terms of the Trio argument Bosh isn't a top 10 player in the league although he is really really good so its a Very good duo with a very good role player

all of those guys were on the decline

saying its a very good duo with a very good role player is just an excuse for something as unsportmanship as this to occur. its lke saying hey I have a girlfriend and another friend on the side. If you are a cheater, you are a CHEATER!! there is no other way going around it

Jahari Kavi
07-22-2010, 12:14 AM
Let's not bait "real" basketball fans that disagree with you. ;) Agreeing or disagreeing with what Lebron has done does not make anyone a "hater" so let's keep the discussion clean.

i'm sorry, but people need to get called out when they have selective memories.....to me a "real" fan knows how to look at a situation with reason, instead of downright hatred........


Yea so your Team is full of dirt bags, then go to a better team like the Bulls. I am not a Bulls fan but they have a much better roster than a Lebron-less Cavalier team, but no he has to play it safe.

lol, play it safe? You act like the title is going to be handed to Miami on a golden platter next year. There are still great teams they have to go through



a college draftee wanting to play with a superstar is not the same as an already established superstar teaming up with another superstar

yes it is....Magic contradicted himself, which is why I called him a moronic hypocrite repeatedly.........sorry, but there is no win for anyone taking the other side of this argument......I rarely say that, but this is one of those cases......Magic admitted that he wanted no part of being the lone star on a team full of scrubs (and I don't blame him)....and he inherited a great team........his logic is flawed.......point...blank.........period.


#CloseThread

SupeUnagi
07-22-2010, 12:15 AM
im not concerned with him choosing to go there in his rookie year
the fact that he said that he wouldnt team up with larry or jordan in his prime is what made me do a double take

of course he wouldnt have, hes winning championships with hall of fame-bound teammates

same thing with jordan. just three completely different situations altogether

Jahari Kavi
07-22-2010, 12:17 AM
Hmmm, guess Magic had nothing to do with it.

A kid wanting to go to a specific team rather than a superstar wanting to leave is completely different.

I don't know how closely you follow basketball, but it was pretty much a given that Magic and Bird were going to be great players when they exited the draft........Magic wanted to go to a "specific" team and so did Lebron.........if anything we could say that Lebron at least had the guts to go to a sucky team as an 18 year old rookie............. #imjussayin

Byronicle
07-22-2010, 12:18 AM
lol, play it safe? You act like the title is going to be handed to Miami on a golden platter next year. There are still great teams they have to go through



really? because last time i remembered lebron wanted to go to a team to start a Dynasty. Starting a dynasty, you gotta be pretty confident, why else would they have teamed up in the first place? So that they can get spooned fed from that golden platter

BkOriginalOne
07-22-2010, 12:18 AM
Good Points.

But I think it's hard to compare the Magic and Lebron case.
Magic was drafted to the Lakers (as an NBA Rookie, who is not going to want to play with the best). Magic won titles and was sure his 'decision' to enter the NBA was best.

Lebron was drafted onto a team with a young Big Z and a Carlos Boozer (that's not a bad start for James). After losing Boozer (really Boozer left), they tried to build around Lebron and couldn't win. Lebron, 25 and fed up, leaves to play with 3 all star talents all under the age of 30.

People usually don't factor the age of these guys into the choice Lebron made.

b0nk
07-22-2010, 12:18 AM
yes it is....Magic contradicted himself, which is why I called him a moronic hypocrite repeatedly.........sorry, but there is no win for anyone taking the other side of this argument......I rarely say that, but this is one of those cases......Magic admitted that he wanted no part of being the lone star on a team full of scrubs (and I don't blame him)....and he inherited a great team........his logic is flawed.......point...blank.........period.

how is Magic a superstar at that time when he hasn't even played a single NBA game yet? lol

allvalleychamp
07-22-2010, 12:19 AM
all of those guys were on the decline

saying its a very good duo with a very good role player is just an excuse for something as unsportmanship as this to occur. its lke saying hey I have a girlfriend and another friend on the side. If you are a cheater, you are a CHEATER!! there is no other way going around it

ok what i meant is an elite duo with a very good role player, but bosh is a 2nd tier player so its not like the 3 best players in the league teaming up...its the best, a top 10 guy and a 2nd tier guy- still an amazing team but not what the critics have been claiming

ink
07-22-2010, 12:21 AM
i'm sorry, but people need to get called out when they have selective memories.....to me a "real" fan knows how to look at a situation with reason, instead of downright hatred........

And I would ask you to do the same thing. Stop assuming your opinion is the only one free of hatred. At least half a dozen HOFers have all voiced the same concern and it's ridiculous to say that they're motivated by hatred. Not only don't you know what they're motivated by, you are ignoring the fact that they are in a better position to speak about legacy and NBA history than most players and coaches in the L.

On top of that, please stop with the "close thread" stuff. If the thread needs closing it will be closed.

DC Laker
07-22-2010, 12:21 AM
I am not sure why so many people are saying the Legends are hating on LeBron??

Everyone one of them have said that he can do what he wants.... He took advantage of the situation that was presented him.... Its a different situation then "Back in the Day"....

and ultimately would they make the same decision.... NO!!!

How are those comments disrespectful?

Even Barkley said, he would do EXACTLY what LeBron did, and actually DID do the same thing late in his Career when he went to Houston to play with Hakeen, Pippen and the lot... BUT Barkley said he would not have done it so young.

I hear NO Hate in these quotes at all....

Anyone who EVER WATCHED the Celtics and the Lakers knows exactly what they would say if asked if they would go play with the other guy.... Of course they would say no!!!

Would Ewing have wanted to go play with the Bulls???
Would I. Thomas want to go play with the Bulls???
Would Reggie Miller go play with the Knicks?
Would Doctor J ever go play with the Celtics?

You didn't ever watch a game back then if you expect any answer other then NO!!!

So these guys giving an answer we all should have predicted 100% is not trashing LeBron!!!

None of them EVER have said they didn't have GREAT teamates.... Magic NEVER said that Kareem was not a super star...
Jordan never said Pippen was not a great player....
Bird never said Parrish and McHale are not great players...
None of them said LeBron should want to play with scrubs....

They have all simply answered the question they keep getting asked. They answered 100% in line with what we already knew of them... They have all also in the same quotes said they respect LeBron and that things are different.

Why the over reaction???

SupeUnagi
07-22-2010, 12:23 AM
they arent

shizzle09
07-22-2010, 12:24 AM
says the heat fan

wait so let me get this straight because I never really heard these guys, Jamal Wilkes averaged 20ppg? Norm Nixon averaged 17 ppg? and who are the other 2? They were a foursome correct? Maybe there team had a lot of offense, look at the Phoenix suns when they had Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion and Steve Nash all averaging more or less 20ppg, did people say it was unfair? No because their style of play was to shoot and shoot like mad men.

Wilkes was a very legit player. Any old school laker fan can chime in on this. he avg'd 18 ppg the season before Magic joined. his avg went up two points when Magic was there. People are entitled to their opinions about Lebron but when someone who clearly only left college so he could join the lakeshow and form their own trio shouldnt be talking about what Lebrons doing.

Here's the link to the Lakers rosters from the early 80's.

http://www.lakersuniverse.com/seasons/1979_1980_season_stats.htm

~Troy
07-22-2010, 12:25 AM
I have absolutely no problem with LeBron leaving Cleveland. And for the people that do, stop creating a double standard or start yelling every player who leaves the team that drafted them.

JordansBulls
07-22-2010, 12:26 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/18462/magic-johnson-sought-elite-teammates-too

That's the point I was making is that Chicago was a horrible organization before MJ came. No one really really wanted to play here.

Enemey
07-22-2010, 12:30 AM
Lakers DRAFTED Magic Johnson with the NUMBER 1 pick . Magic didnt choose the Lakers the Lakers chose Magic. A rookie does not have a choice to pick where he wants to play .

I dont know why people are comparing a rookie situation with a Superstar situation.

Magic simply said if he was in his PRIME in the NBA he wouldnt want to team up with anther SUPERSTAR in his PRIME if he had the choice. And the Lakers fell to the bottom because of Kareem being injured .

DC Laker
07-22-2010, 12:32 AM
My least favorite part of the entire situation is that teams specifcally tried to NOT WIN in order to pull off something like this.

I have ZERO respect for a team that is willing to lose games, be less then they can be... and take steps backwards on purpose in order to maybe get free agents.

These teams, Chicago, Miami, New York, Jersey.... have all specifically sold there teams and cities on sucking on purpose... in order to maybe get better in a few years.

Could you EVER see a team like the Lakers doing that??? The Lakers go NUTS the first time they don't make the play-offs.

LeBron di dwhat he thoght was best and that is fine with me.... but I do not respect the teams.

The ticket holders deserve better, the fans deserve better and the players deserve a truely competitive team not some cheep attempt to rig the system.

shizzle09
07-22-2010, 12:37 AM
Lakers DRAFTED Magic Johnson with the NUMBER 1 pick . Magic didnt choose the Lakers the Lakers chose Magic. A rookie does not have a choice to pick where he wants to play .

I dont know why people are comparing a rookie situation with a Superstar situation.

Magic simply said if he was in his PRIME in the NBA he wouldnt want to team up with anther SUPERSTAR in his PRIME if he had the choice. And the Lakers fell to the bottom because of Kareem being injured .

Magic never needed to leave the lakers. He left college because he knew he was laker bound hence his comment in the article above. he wanted to play with Kareem and the lakers. Lebron was CHOSEN by the cavs he didnt choose the cavs. So you're saying he is stuck with the team that drafted him and cant go join other good players especially when they're friends. Makes no sense that Magic is questioning his choice.

$KnicksAndKobe$
07-22-2010, 12:38 AM
Lakers DRAFTED Magic Johnson with the NUMBER 1 pick . Magic didnt choose the Lakers the Lakers chose Magic. A rookie does not have a choice to pick where he wants to play .

I dont know why people are comparing a rookie situation with a Superstar situation.

Magic simply said if he was in his PRIME in the NBA he wouldnt want to team up with anther SUPERSTAR in his PRIME if he had the choice. And the Lakers fell to the bottom because of Kareem being injured .

:clap:

shizzle09
07-22-2010, 12:39 AM
My least favorite part of the entire situation is that teams specifcally tried to NOT WIN in order to pull off something like this.

I have ZERO respect for a team that is willing to lose games, be less then they can be... and take steps backwards on purpose in order to maybe get free agents.

These teams, Chicago, Miami, New York, Jersey.... have all specifically sold there teams and cities on sucking on purpose... in order to maybe get better in a few years.

Could you EVER see a team like the Lakers doing that??? The Lakers go NUTS the first time they don't make the play-offs.

LeBron di dwhat he thoght was best and that is fine with me.... but I do not respect the teams.

The ticket holders deserve better, the fans deserve better and the players deserve a truely competitive team not some cheep attempt to rig the system.

good post. all good points.

Maddog-99
07-22-2010, 12:45 AM
It has become too black & white of us vs. them. This is a great post w/ data that points that out.

My beef with Lebron is dont call yourself the King if you then want to sign w/ Wade who is a #3 player & already won a ring. No issue with him & Bosh, in fact bring him to Cleveland or leave & go to Chicago (with or without Bosh) & you are still the Man in my eyes.

Not so much now. I think there is a bit of fear in LeBron.

rockets-fan
07-22-2010, 12:46 AM
i dont blame lebron for leaving to play with wade and bosh...i think thats great for him...i was pissed at him doing it on national television for an hour embarrassing is hometown fans...thats just wrong...he loves the attenition and thats waht i hate..not hm joing up with wade and bosh

Enemey
07-22-2010, 12:49 AM
Magic never needed to leave the lakers. He left college because he knew he was laker bound hence his comment in the article above. he wanted to play with Kareem and the lakers. Lebron was CHOSEN by the cavs he didnt choose the cavs. So you're saying he is stuck with the team that drafted him and cant go join other good players especially when they're friends. Makes no sense that Magic is questioning his choice.

I never said that about James. Lebron James has every right to go and choose where ever he wants to play but will it effect his Legacy ? Yes it will. A rookie cant decide where he wants to play, he can go back to school and it still
and still be drafted by a team that sucks. The Lakers had the #1 pick and simply stated that he wants to play for the lakers. He was the best in the draft so the lakers chose him.

hustleloyrspct
07-22-2010, 01:21 AM
i'm really startin to get irritated at these threads lol mj and magic have all the right to say what they said and in no way were they undermining lebron they just basically said they wouldnt of done the same thing but i myself have no respect for lebron cuzz his hour espn special but i wont get into that.

hugepatsfan
07-22-2010, 01:23 AM
People have toally missed the point here. No one is saying that playing with great teamates is bad. People have a problem with the way this MIA team came together.

Pippen was drafted by CHI while MJ was there. Magic was drafted onto a team w/ Kareem and bcame the #1 player over a legend through his play. They later drafted Worthy, while Magic was on the team. McHale and Parrish grew with Larry. But he clearly established himself as the #1 player.

Lebron ran to another city to join a superstar that has already has carried a team to the finals. If stats were all that matter, Wilt would be the GOAT. If rings were all that matter, Russell would be the GOAT. But MJ is the GOAT because there is another major factor - intangibles. This move is going to leave Lebron severely lacking in that department.

Chacarron
07-22-2010, 01:31 AM
Lakers DRAFTED Magic Johnson with the NUMBER 1 pick . Magic didnt choose the Lakers the Lakers chose Magic. A rookie does not have a choice to pick where he wants to play .

I dont know why people are comparing a rookie situation with a Superstar situation.

Magic simply said if he was in his PRIME in the NBA he wouldnt want to team up with anther SUPERSTAR in his PRIME if he had the choice. And the Lakers fell to the bottom because of Kareem being injured .

Exactly. Lebron left, Magic was drafted.

Wade>You
07-22-2010, 01:38 AM
People have toally missed the point here. No one is saying that playing with great teamates is bad. People have a problem with the way this MIA team came together.

Pippen was drafted by CHI while MJ was there. Magic was drafted onto a team w/ Kareem and bcame the #1 player over a legend through his play. They later drafted Worthy, while Magic was on the team. McHale and Parrish grew with Larry. But he clearly established himself as the #1 player.

Lebron ran to another city to join a superstar that has already has carried a team to the finals. If stats were all that matter, Wilt would be the GOAT. If rings were all that matter, Russell would be the GOAT. But MJ is the GOAT because there is another major factor - intangibles. This move is going to leave Lebron severely lacking in that department.But the point of the thread was that all three guys were surrounded by legends and HOFers. How does LeBron's roster compare to that of Magic/Bird/MJs?

ink
07-22-2010, 01:43 AM
But the point of the thread was that all three guys were surrounded by legends and HOFers. How does LeBron's roster compare to that of Magic/Bird/MJs?

The point of the thread is flawed as demonstrated by some of the posts above.

Wade>You
07-22-2010, 01:46 AM
The point of the thread is flawed as demonstrated by some of the posts above.There all opinions.

hugepatsfan
07-22-2010, 01:46 AM
But the point of the thread was that all three guys were surrounded by legends and HOFers. How does LeBron's roster compare to that of Magic/Bird/MJs?

The point of the quotes is not that at all. All these guys are saying is that they had too much pride and competitiveness to join forces with other superstars IN THEIR PRIMES. Chuck desperately making one last attempt at the ring is his waning years is not the same as what LBJ did. Magic using his leverage of being able to go back to school is different (though not better).

My issue is not him leaving - it's the diva mentality he approached this FA with. That mentality he had is the reason CLE was not a great title situation. The Heat positioned themselves to makes these moves by sacraficing some potnetial wins over the past few years. They could do this because Wade was willing to assure them he would stay. Lebron would not do that for the Cavs. He kept saying "I'll only stay if we win." That forced CLE to makes moves for average players, thus limiting their flexibility. Lebron being a diva and flexing his muscles over his opt out power never allowed CLE to wait for the right move. It forced them into bad moves that limited flexibility, giving LBJ an excuse to leave.

ink
07-22-2010, 01:48 AM
People have toally missed the point here. No one is saying that playing with great teamates is bad. People have a problem with the way this MIA team came together.

Exactly.


Pippen was drafted by CHI while MJ was there. Magic was drafted onto a team w/ Kareem and bcame the #1 player over a legend through his play. They later drafted Worthy, while Magic was on the team. McHale and Parrish grew with Larry. But he clearly established himself as the #1 player.

Lebron would have created a legacy for himself by overcoming adversity. That is what builds ALL legacies. People don't remember athletes that find an easier way to win. That's just reality in the sports world and everyone knows it. People remember the athletes that overcome challenges, no matter what they are. Lebron abandoned a team that won 60+ games. As a team game, that is enough to build on regardless of the individual talent.


Lebron ran to another city to join a superstar that has already has carried a team to the finals. If stats were all that matter, Wilt would be the GOAT. If rings were all that matter, Russell would be the GOAT. But MJ is the GOAT because there is another major factor - intangibles. This move is going to leave Lebron severely lacking in that department.

Well stated. Proof that objections to what Lebron has done can be stated without hatred.

hugepatsfan
07-22-2010, 01:51 AM
Exactly.



Lebron would have created a legacy for himself by overcoming adversity. That is what builds ALL legacies. People don't remember athletes that find an easier way to win. That's just reality in the sports world and everyone knows it. People remember the athletes that overcome challenges, no matter what they are. Lebron abandoned a team that won 60+ games. As a team game, that is enough to build on regardless of the individual talent.



Well stated. Proof that objections to what Lebron has done can be stated without hatred.

Someone else said that part in another thread. I wish I could remember what thread it was so I could give proper credit.

jiggin
07-22-2010, 01:52 AM
yeah...being drafted out of college and organizing with 2 current nba stars is the same thing...WHAT?!?!!?

wow, people are really stretching things here to come up with a story on this subject.

The two are ABSOLUTELY NOT RELATED IN ANY WAY...but nice try.

I guess if a player played with another star at any point in his career it somehow justifies what LBJ has done...right? LOL

Besides...this misses the point all together. Its how he did it and how he presented it that makes LBJ a douche bag and has probably soured his legacy in 85% of NBA fans minds. Its not where he went...but how he handed it and when they decided (were not FA at the time).

Of course, you all knew that right...LOL

$KnicksAndKobe$
07-22-2010, 02:00 AM
Great player drafted to team A vs Great player FA signing to Team A, IS THE SAME THING!!!


(No it's not =D)

Wade>You
07-22-2010, 02:00 AM
The point of the quotes is not that at all. All these guys are saying is that they had too much pride and competitiveness to join forces with other superstars IN THEIR PRIMES. Chuck desperately making one last attempt at the ring is his waning years is not the same as what LBJ did. Magic using his leverage of being able to go back to school is different (though not better).

My issue is not him leaving - it's the diva mentality he approached this FA with. That mentality he had is the reason CLE was not a great title situation. The Heat positioned themselves to makes these moves by sacraficing some potnetial wins over the past few years. They could do this because Wade was willing to assure them he would stay. Lebron would not do that for the Cavs. He kept saying "I'll only stay if we win." That forced CLE to makes moves for average players, thus limiting their flexibility. Lebron being a diva and flexing his muscles over his opt out power never allowed CLE to wait for the right move. It forced them into bad moves that limited flexibility, giving LBJ an excuse to leave.To me, the fact that Magic wouldn't have gone to a Chicago if they had the #1 pick shows how much he cares more about his legacy than being a good soldier. Imagine if LeBron had backed out when he found out that Cleveland landed the #1 pick. (Surprise) Everyone would be questioning his legacy and ability to win it all by himself and would be ragging on him for not joining his home town team and helping them rebuild.

I won't discuss the second half because I have a different opinion on that, and this convo will go on all night lol.

hugepatsfan
07-22-2010, 02:04 AM
The fact that Magic wouldn't have gone to a Chicago if they had the #1 pick shows how much he cares more about his legacy than being a good soldier. Imagine if LeBron had backed out when he found out that Cleveland landed the #1 pick. (Surprise) Everyone would be ragging on him for not joining his home town team and helping them rebuild.

I don't think what Magic did is respectable either. Kobe shouldn't have demanded a trade either. But, and I know this sounds like a cop out answer, the Bulls didn't get a shot at Magic and Kobe wasn't traded. It's really hard to criticize people for hypotheticals, you know. So many variables.

Again, my issue w/ Lebron is the second part of the response you posted. The way his diva mentality ran a franchise into the ground. And then he just stepped over the mess he made on his way down to MIA, leaving one of the "little people" to clean up after him.

Although, CLE did make one mistake. They should have dealt Wally's deal for a piece. But it's easy to say that when we don't know if any good deals were offered. Maybe all that was offered to them were average players with restricting contracts...

Wade>You
07-22-2010, 02:14 AM
I don't think what Magic did is respectable either. Kobe shouldn't have demanded a trade either. But, and I know this sounds like a cop out answer, the Bulls didn't get a shot at Magic and Kobe wasn't traded. It's really hard to criticize people for hypotheticals, you know. So many variables.

Again, my issue w/ Lebron is the second part of the response you posted. The way his diva mentality ran a franchise into the ground. And then he just stepped over the mess he made on his way down to MIA, leaving one of the "little people" to clean up after him.First paragraph: fine. I can't say I agree with that logic since it's truly unfair, but whatever.

Second paragraph: let's look at another diva scenario that the Lakers were fortunate enough to overcome: Kobe pouting in the 2004 Finals when Shaq was killing the Pistons (about 63% FG for 26ppg IIRC) and Kobe was a huge liability on offense (around 34% FG on 22ppg) and would not get Shaq the ball. Kobe's selfishness potentially cost them a title (no team can overcome their leading FGA guy shooting 34%). The Lakers were forced to dismante a dynasty, with Shaq being traded and Phil being fired.

Why? All to keep Kobe Bryant in a Lakers uniform. Granted, the Lakers were VERY FORTUNATE that Phil decided to return (thanks to Jeanie Buss) and the Grizz giftwrapped them Pau Gasol. But that should have been a devastating blow to their franchise. I guess some players/teams have all the luck.

So you can't sit there and criticize LeBron for being a diva while not acknowledging what Kobe did was 10x worse.

hugepatsfan
07-22-2010, 02:28 AM
First paragraph: fine. I can't say I agree with that logic since it's truly unfair, but whatever.

Second paragraph: let's look at another diva scenario that the Lakers were fortunate enough to overcome: Kobe pouting in the 2004 Finals when Shaq was killing the Pistons (about 63% FG for 26ppg IIRC) and Kobe was a huge liability on offense (around 34% FG on 22ppg) and would not get Shaq the ball. Kobe's selfishness potentially cost them a title (no team can overcome their leading FGA guy shooting 34%). The Lakers were forced to dismante a dynasty, with Shaq being traded and Phil being fired.

Why? All to keep Kobe Bryant in a Lakers uniform. Granted, the Lakers were VERY FORTUNATE that Phil decided to return (thanks to Jeanie Buss) and the Grizz giftwrapped them Pau Gasol. But that should have been a devastating blow to their franchise. I guess some players/teams have all the luck.

So you can't sit there and criticize LeBron for being a diva while not acknowledging what Kobe did was 10x worse.

The Kobe situation is really a tricky subject for me. I wasn't all that into basketball back then, so my in depth knowledge of the situation is limited. But I'll try to respond to this...

Kobe was wrong in his actions. He showed a lack of understanding about how legacies are built. When Magic won his first title, Kareem was the better player (despite Magic's epic Game 7). But Magic became the better player as time went on. If Kobe and Shaq had continued their time together, I think the same thing could have happened. Kobe showed an immaturity there.

However, it's not fait to put all the blame on Kobe. That was a disfunctional team for other reasons too. Shaq wasn't an angel. And Phil liked to rub Kobe the wrong way to motivate him. Phil is partly to blame for not realizing that it got to the point where he was having a negative effect.

Hellcrooner
07-22-2010, 02:31 AM
BS.

The auhor wants to mke you ocnfused.

Magic WOULD have jumped on the bulls to.

they had similar age to kareem supsrstar CENTER ARTIS GILMORE Intersting prospect landesberger, ( he choke d but then was a good prospect) ands soon to be ALL STAR REggie Theus .

Bulls woudl have gotten som rings wiht magic

Hellcrooner
07-22-2010, 02:31 AM
BS.

The auhor wants to mke you ocnfused.

Magic WOULD have jumped on the bulls to.

they had similar age to kareem supsrstar CENTER ARTIS GILMORE Intersting prospect landesberger, ( he choke d but then was a good prospect) ands soon to be ALL STAR REggie Theus .

Bulls woudl have gotten som rings wiht magic

D Roses Bulls
07-22-2010, 02:56 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/18462/magic-johnson-sought-elite-teammates-too

ESPN wrote this article, enough said...... they are on lebrons nuts

ARMIN12NBA
07-22-2010, 02:42 PM
Eh, I would take a lot of quotes from Magic with a grain of salt. I think those quotes from 1991 was just a whole lot of hindsight with him loving Cap and the Lakers after the Showtime Dynasty. I remember in an interview with Jeannie Buss, she talked about how when she first met Magic, Magic told her of his desires to leave the Lakers to join his hometown Detroit Pistons. The Lakers won his heart over though. Also, I read this article back from 1987 about how Magic and Kareem had a little friction from even before his playing days with the Lakers so KAJ was definitely not an ultimate deciding factor.

JordansBulls
07-22-2010, 02:58 PM
Also people forget that Kareem was almost traded in 1982.

Here was a thread on it.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=378089




Proposed Trade

NY Knicks
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (from LAL)

LA Lakers
Michael Ray Richardson (from NYK)

Utah Jazz
Bill Cartwright (from NYK)

NJrockPD
07-22-2010, 03:16 PM
You know the little league team where one coach knows all of the most athletic kids so one team is stacked and the others suck. When you are on one of the ****** teams it really sucks because you feel like you lost before the season started. The coach of that winning team seems to be the ******* overaggressive dad who is a sore loser living vicariously through his child. I feel like that ******* allstar team is what the Heat are assembling and thats why I don't like them. They are completely following the rules and I'm not saying anything was done "wrong", but I feel like the competition is disappearing from the game and players are just trying to win easy rings to cement their legacy. I don't like baseball, but now I know why so many people hate the yankees, also I see why the yankees have so many fair weather fans . . . because like the players they don't want to play if they don't know that they are going to win.

JonnyBrav000
07-22-2010, 03:30 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/18462/magic-johnson-sought-elite-teammates-too


Kobe's trade demands did not end when the Lakers acquired Pau Gasol. That is BS.

His trade demands ended way before they picked him up, because that season Bynum was playing well and the Lakers were winning alot of games.

So how could Kobe flirt with signing with Chicago, if the Gasol trade happened mid-season??? Get your useless rants straight before you try to justify all the crap Lebron put everyone through.

Point is Lebron is a sidekick, he went to another star's team and wasn't even man enough to keep it real with the team that drafted him. All he had to do is let them know he wasn't going there anymore, why be a punk and egomaniac about it and announce your decision on TV and then lie and say you took less money to play in Miami, when everyone should know that he is making more in miami because there is no income tax in that state.

tking07
07-22-2010, 03:47 PM
I love how Heat fans try to justify the reasoning behind their team...

Allstar21
07-22-2010, 03:51 PM
magic johnson has aids

end of story...this guy is a jokeee

Me and Mr. T
07-22-2010, 04:04 PM
magic johnson has aids

end of story...this guy is a jokeee

Was that really necessary?

drama1386
07-22-2010, 04:09 PM
great read. i'm still on your side lebron!

TEXASTITAN
07-22-2010, 04:28 PM
Nobody cares anymore seriously......Lebron pissed all over cleveland on national tv and showed no class by his handling of the situation period.....On top of that with him teaming up with wade and bosh all he really proved was he was unable and unwilling to win a title on his own and he's willing to ride b!tch on the heat and in the end his ego will be the end of that little fantasy as well within 3 years he's going to want a trade out of there mark my words 3 years no title he's gonna do whatever it takes to get a ticket out of there....

Rocket21k
07-22-2010, 04:31 PM
This article doesnt take into account the overall league differences between the late 70's/ early 80's and today. Today there are several more teams in the NBA due to expansion. The talent overall may be better, but it is spread across more teams. Where there used to be 20-30 stars and 20-30 great role players spread across 22 teams, we now have 20-30 stars spread across 30 teams. It was a lot easier to end up on a stacked team in the 80's without lobbying for a trade. It is also a totally different situation for a guy like Magic before he got drafted when he had no loyalties to a pro team and could choose to start his career as an unestablished player in a city he wanted to play in.
A lot of these guys today don't want to win for the sake of winning. They want to win for the fame, the credit, and to be portrayed as greater than the other guy for winning.
If Chris Paul or Lebron James wants to win something, then he should be better. Become a winner. Earn it. If these guys continue to want to leave instead of build, then they may win something against a watered-down league. A true champion works for something and earns it and does not take the easy way out. These guys may win something down the road, but they will never be great.

Jonathan2323
07-22-2010, 04:33 PM
I love how Heat fans try to justify the reasoning behind their team...

We don't have to justify anything. We did everything legally we had 1 play under contract and signed 3 superstar players to around 14 mil per yr contracts. All these old Hall of Famers are hypocrites.

Hellcrooner
07-22-2010, 04:36 PM
again, theus, landsberfer and ARTIS GILMORE:

this article is pure crap from teh espn ever lebron ball lickers crew

Tony_Starks
07-22-2010, 04:43 PM
Sometimes when I played Street Fighter II I would pick the character Dhalsim. He wasn't really that great of a character, didn't really have a whole lot of moves, but his REACH was a good feature......

jackdawson
07-22-2010, 04:44 PM
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, A.C. Green, etc etc.

Yeah Magic needs to STFU!

8kobe24
07-22-2010, 04:45 PM
again, theus, landsberfer and ARTIS GILMORE:

this article is pure crap from teh espn ever lebron ball lickers crew

:laugh:

RVN671
07-22-2010, 04:47 PM
I thought the Lakers got the 1st pick from the Jazz when Gail Goodrich (the other badass laker pg before magic) signed with Utah as a FA. The Jazz ended up finishing with the worst record that year.

MiamiWadeCounty
07-22-2010, 04:47 PM
one thing also to be noted is that michael jordan said he'd never team up with bird or magic, but how do you compare bosh an all-star with magic or bird two of the best players in history. also good read:clap:

mikealike305
07-22-2010, 04:48 PM
We don't have to justify anything. We did everything legally we had 1 play under contract and signed 3 superstar players to around 14 mil per yr contracts. All these old Hall of Famers are hypocrites.

their mad

mikealike305
07-22-2010, 04:49 PM
I love how Heat fans try to justify the reasoning behind their team...

you mad

Chronz
07-22-2010, 05:13 PM
Yup. 100% agree.

Somehow people miss the red bolded part. That is what these HOFers have been saying all along. Nothing more. It's a significant point.
Still you gotta admit they never had to endure what Bron did. Much less Magic especially in light of this admission

Chronz
07-22-2010, 05:18 PM
a college draftee wanting to play with a superstar is not the same as an already established superstar teaming up with another superstar
Your right, its worse. Atleast Bron tried to revive a dreadful franchise and elevate it to its highest possible heights given its talent. Magic didnt want to wait, he was happy being 2nd fiddle from the start of his career. Now both Bron and Magic will both end their careers in similar fashion. My money is on Bron trashing that level of success.


Good point. Kind of lets the air out of this article.
In what ways?

All good points. Especially the point that going to the Bulls would have been the move of a player with confidence who knew he had the ability to take a good team (like the Bulls) over the top.
Its much more complex than that, yes how talented the team matters but fit is also important. Going to Chicago wouldnt have been a move to match up talent for talent, so if your going to join a squad that isnt exactly a perfect mesh (Chicago's rosters skillsets do not compliment Bron) then you may as well go to the team with most talent. He along with Bosh are going to make a team that got bounced in R1 into a dynasty. Atleast according to him


Lakers DRAFTED Magic Johnson with the NUMBER 1 pick . Magic didnt choose the Lakers the Lakers chose Magic. A rookie does not have a choice to pick where he wants to play .

I dont know why people are comparing a rookie situation with a Superstar situation.

Magic simply said if he was in his PRIME in the NBA he wouldnt want to team up with anther SUPERSTAR in his PRIME if he had the choice. And the Lakers fell to the bottom because of Kareem being injured .
When did you start analyzing the league?

VivaLaShark
07-22-2010, 05:34 PM
Dumb article.... Magic was drafted and was a star struck rookie who had NO idea how he would fare as an NBA player. Thats like someone saying I refuse to get drafted out of college because I am going to have to play with MJ. Totally different. Magic didn't LEAVE anywhere to go play somewhere. He got drafted to a team from college with no NBA superstardome acquired.

LBJ is THE best in the nba once Kobe retires. You can't compare the two.

Chronz
07-22-2010, 05:36 PM
Lebron would have created a legacy for himself by overcoming adversity. That is what builds ALL legacies. People don't remember athletes that find an easier way to win. That's just reality in the sports world and everyone knows it. People remember the athletes that overcome challenges, no matter what they are. .
Its easier to overcome adversity when there is vast potential for improvement as MJ had when Pip/Grant were the prospects he had to grow alongside with. There are no such hopes in Cleveland. Atleast not if he wants to win to at the highest degree throughout his career, in order to do that he needs what all the greats needed. Transcendent teammates.


Lebron abandoned a team that won 60+ games. As a team game, that is enough to build on regardless of the individual talent.
Yea he may have eventually done a superhuman job and carried his inferior team to a title and yes it would have been memorable, but did you ever think he just wants what Magic, MJ, Bird never had to ask for. The most talented support in the game, great players to grow alongside of, not over the hill/limited prospects.

What good do those 60 wins do if your teammates consistently degrade their level of play in the playoffs. When the most talented teams increase their intensity.

JordansBulls
07-22-2010, 05:43 PM
Its easier to overcome adversity when there is vast potential for improvement as MJ had when Pip/Grant were the prospects he had to grow alongside with. There are no such hopes in Cleveland. Atleast not if he wants to win to at the highest degree throughout his career, in order to do that he needs what all the greats needed. Transcendent teammates.


Yea he may have eventually done a superhuman job and carried his inferior team to a title and yes it would have been memorable, but did you ever think he just wants what Magic, MJ, Bird never had to ask for. The most talented support in the game, great players to grow alongside of, not over the hill/limited prospects.

What good do those 60 wins do if your teammates consistently degrade their level of play in the playoffs. When the most talented teams increase their intensity.

No player got better with Lebron though. Carlos Boozer became a star once he left.

Chronz
07-22-2010, 06:10 PM
No player got better with Lebron though. Carlos Boozer became a star once he left.
The act of making one better is much more difficult to assess than this. Ive been researching the influence players have on eachother for years and still havent fully grasped it.

Besides Boozer improved alongside Bron, his PER increased immensely and then dropped off the next 2 years on average (though he dealt with injuries) and of course by his 5th year or so hes going to be better than he was as a 2nd year man alongside a Rookie Bron.

rufo4100
07-22-2010, 08:48 PM
Jordan and Magic never woudl have done what those guys did. They got players on their teams to play better. That is what true superstars do.

Hellcrooner
07-22-2010, 09:06 PM
Your right, its worse. Atleast Bron tried to revive a dreadful franchise and elevate it to its highest possible heights given its talent. Magic didnt want to wait, he was happy being 2nd fiddle from the start of his career. Now both Bron and Magic will both end their careers in similar fashion. My money is on Bron trashing that level of success.


In what ways?

Its much more complex than that, yes how talented the team matters but fit is also important. Going to Chicago wouldnt have been a move to match up talent for talent, so if your going to join a squad that isnt exactly a perfect mesh (Chicago's rosters skillsets do not compliment Bron) then you may as well go to the team with most talent. He along with Bosh are going to make a team that got bounced in R1 into a dynasty. Atleast according to him


When did you start analyzing the league?


:rolleyes: ahh this yyouth.

Second fiddel as in win finals MVP his first year?

Kobe5RingKing
07-22-2010, 09:13 PM
Ppl gettin at the magic man....come on people! WHY

Kobe5RingKing
07-22-2010, 09:18 PM
their mad


you mad

No Lakers Fan Or NBA Fan is "mad" just the fact that Lebron claims to be the greatest and has "Divorced" his Franchise( Which No other G.O.A.T) Has done. Which Officially make Lebron NOT A G.O.A.T

If he was so great Why did he have to join a FINALS MVP in wade + Bosh....Shure his claiming not to be greedy.

"If You Want To Be The Man, You Must Beat The Man"

Not call a truce and Join Them

Jaji
07-22-2010, 09:19 PM
Great read. Great points.

I'm still on your side LeBron, one of the few left.

Me too. I've been a fan since day 1. I also love that guy in your sig. He's gonna be the main one trying to bring it to the Heat in a few years.

Chronz
07-22-2010, 09:20 PM
:rolleyes: ahh this yyouth.

Second fiddel as in win finals MVP his first year?

Yes because we all know Finals MVP determines who the teams best player was, and not just its most vital (in theory) in the championship round. Shame on me for thinking Larry Bird led the Celtics to their first title.

Chronz
07-22-2010, 09:36 PM
No Lakers Fan Or NBA Fan is "mad" just the fact that Lebron claims to be the greatest and has "Divorced" his Franchise( Which No other G.O.A.T) Has done. Which Officially make Lebron NOT A G.O.A.T

If he was so great Why did he have to join a FINALS MVP in wade + Bosh....Shure his claiming not to be greedy.

"If You Want To Be The Man, You Must Beat The Man"

Not call a truce and Join Them
Umm isnt Kobe the man they are going to beat?

HiphopRelated
07-22-2010, 09:42 PM
No Lakers Fan Or NBA Fan is "mad" just the fact that Lebron claims to be the greatest and has "Divorced" his Franchise( Which No other G.O.A.T) Has done. Which Officially make Lebron NOT A G.O.A.T

If he was so great Why did he have to join a FINALS MVP in wade + Bosh....Shure his claiming not to be greedy.

"If You Want To Be The Man, You Must Beat The Man"

Not call a truce and Join Them
Wade/Bron/Bosh have never met in the playoffs

They were all on teams with limited ceilings. Wade had the best chance to make his "own" team but figured "hey we're in this to win and win big" and decided to link his talents with Bron and Bosh.

None of these guys left a future HOFer behind to join forces

JasonJohnHorn
07-22-2010, 09:56 PM
LBJ's Cavs were different than Magic's Lakers sure enough. But Magic's Lakers had drafted or traded for most of the players he played with. Norm Nixon and Kareem were already there, and we are talking about a Kareem who was over 30 when Magic got there and WELL past 30 (actually 40) when they won their last title. Michael Cooper, Byron Scott, AC Green, these guys were good, but they honestly werent much better than supporting players like Anderson Verajao, Antwan Jamison and Mo Williams.

And lets not forget that Magic took the Lakers to the finals without Kareem, with a second year European player named Vlade Divac who was considered a second rate center at the time. But Magic helped guys like Worthy (whose playing level dropped once Magic was off the court), Green, Scott, Perkins, Divac and Cooper play better and I would say made it possible for Kareem to stay as effective a player as he did into his late 30's. Magic helped to make these guys better, and they were players that the Lakers for the most part had drafted. It wasnt like free agency hit and the Magic Showtime Lakers just called up Jordan and Barkley and said come on over and a title is a lock for both of you.

James had a right to do what he did, and the Cavs failed to get the legit #2 guy, but they did surround him with the pieces to win, they were a deep team and their only hole was at shooting guard, which was made harder to fill last season when Trevor Ariza was considering signing with the Cavs but opted not to because James would make no promises about what the length of his tenure in Cleveland would be.

If James was as committed to the Cavs as Jordan was to the Bulls, Magic was to the Lakers, Thomas and Dumars were to the Pistons, Robinson and Duncan were to the Spurs and Bird was to the Celtics, the Cavs would have won multiple titles.

The only players that really stayed true to a team and didnt win a title were Reggie Miller, Ewing (who was overrated in my book) and Stockton and Malone, and each of their biggest problems was Jordan's Bulls (and Miller of course hit a wall with Shaq's Lakers as well).

It not like Magic pulled a Wade and called up Karl Malone and Hakeem to come play for the Lakers, Magic worked with the guys the Lakers drafted, though Jerry West is the greatest GM of all time, so Magic did have that advantage, but West had the advantage of having a great facilitator on his team like Magic.

Jaji
07-22-2010, 10:04 PM
:yawn:

This is getting so boring. Everyone is mad at LeBron because he's changing the game yet again. Lakers fans are scared. Bulls fans are mad. HOFers are jealous. This is just getting ridiculous. Haters should just stop denying the inevitable and accept the truth that the rest of us have already come to understand: that LeBron James will be the GOAT. At age 25, his career is just beginning...

kozelkid
07-22-2010, 10:06 PM
:yawn:

This is getting so boring. Everyone is mad at LeBron because he's changing the game yet again. Lakers fans are scared. Bulls fans are mad. HOFers are jealous. This is just getting ridiculous. Haters should just stop denying the inevitable and accept the truth that the rest of us have already come to understand: that LeBron James will be the GOAT. At age 25, his career is just beginning...

Stick to football.

Jaji
07-22-2010, 10:25 PM
Stick to football.

Judging by your sig we can tell that you have no emotional ties whatsoever attached to LeBron James :rolleyes:.

kozelkid
07-22-2010, 10:47 PM
Judging by your sig we can tell that you have no emotional ties whatsoever attached to LeBron James :rolleyes:.

Did I ever say I didn't? Isn't being a fan all about having biases. With that said, lebron has done very little to suggest being a future GOAT. There are other factors to being a GOAT than simply stats.
That doesn't change the fact that calling him a Goat is ridiculous at best.

Jaji
07-23-2010, 08:58 AM
Did I ever say I didn't? Isn't being a fan all about having biases. With that said, lebron has done very little to suggest being a future GOAT. There are other factors to being a GOAT than simply stats.
That doesn't change the fact that calling him a Goat is ridiculous at best.

You sound like a Jordan hater in the 80's. I've heard this all before...

Russell_Roberts
07-23-2010, 09:27 AM
who cares what magic said.. the game changes..this is a whole new era of ball.. everything changes. from the ball to the bootyshorts they wore in the day to teams.

Russollini
07-23-2010, 10:04 AM
Magic's situation is totally different. Magic was a rookie. He's talking about the thought of him teaming up w/ Bird WHEN THEY BOTH REACHED ELITE STATUS.

Bird, Jordan and Magic were 1A, B and C. Wade is 3 and Bosh is 15-20. I said this before, Bosh is not a top 5 player in the league!!! Wade is 1, 2 or 3. You have 2 of the top 3 players in the league, that is it. I really do not understand the big deal. Yes they are going to be GREAT, but he did not say I want to play with Kobe, Wade, Paul, Amare, Howard, ect. Kobe has Pau (who is stronger then Bosh), AB (who if healthy is a top tier C) and Lamar (who is inconsistent, but when needed plays at an AS level). The Celtics Big 3 plus Rondo is potent. They destroyed teams in the playoffs before the lakers got the best of them. KG, Ray and Paul all are great players. Todays league has "big" 3s everywhere, and those teams win. Orlando has Carter, Howard and Lewis (Nelson is good too). They brought in Carter to get them over the hump (he is just old now) because they needed a big three to match up with the other teams out there.

People need to stop talking about the Heat, talk about Paul pushing his way out of NO to form a Big 3 in NYC with Amare and (he hopes) Anthony.