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YankeeFan28
07-14-2010, 12:04 PM
Jays acquire SS Escobar & LHP Reyes from ATL in exchange for SS Gonzalez & prospects T. Collins & T. Pastornicky. More on bluejays.com soon.http://twitter.com/MLBastian

fatkev78
07-14-2010, 12:06 PM
Jays also get pitcher Jo-Jo Reyes

blujaysrock
07-14-2010, 12:11 PM
holy **** we got Yunel Escobar :speechless:


edit: Holy **** we moved Tim Collins and Pastronicky :cry: ****

Bryrob58
07-14-2010, 12:11 PM
What's Yunel's problem this year? Isn't he usually a .300 hitter with the power to hit 10 hrs? Why would ATL give up on him? I would take Escobar over Gonzalez any day...

2009mvp
07-14-2010, 12:11 PM
First impression....****ing hate it.

blujaysrock
07-14-2010, 12:14 PM
First impression....****ing hate it.

Same. When I saw Yunel I liked it but when I saw Pastornicky and Collins it made me hate it.

Bryrob58
07-14-2010, 12:14 PM
At least he plays top notch defence, even if his bat never comes back.

2009mvp
07-14-2010, 12:15 PM
So he's only 27, not as bad as I first thought. Still, I don't get why we had to give up 2 prospects for them to throw in a thoroughly useless arm in Reyes.

miller74
07-14-2010, 12:16 PM
I dont know much about Collins or Pastornicky, but i like that we have a legit SS going forward

Bryrob58
07-14-2010, 12:17 PM
So he's only 27, not as bad as I first thought. Still, I don't get why we had to give up 2 prospects for them to throw in a thoroughly useless arm in Reyes.

... I doubt they would have traded Yunel for Gonzalez straight up, maybe I'm wrong? :shrug:

blujaysrock
07-14-2010, 12:18 PM
... I doubt they would have traded Yunel for Gonzalez straight up, maybe I'm wrong? :shrug:

Still we should have just let them keep Reyes and only sent them one spec. Still I guess time will tell if it was a good move or not.

Roy31
07-14-2010, 12:18 PM
It's an okay deal, Yunel is still relatively young and good.

Bryrob58
07-14-2010, 12:20 PM
Still we should have just let them keep Reyes and only sent them one spec. Still I guess time will tell if it was a good move or not.

Agreed. Usually I'm all for moving mid level prospects, but the return should be for players of value. Reyes has no business on an MLB team, IMO.

Asham
07-14-2010, 12:25 PM
Collins and Pastornicky were okay but I dont think they were key parts of the future for the Jays

Jays Claw
07-14-2010, 12:25 PM
The Blue Jays gave up too much in this deal.

fatkev78
07-14-2010, 12:31 PM
Escobar is arbitration eligible for the 1ST time after this season......under control through 2013.

Bryrob58
07-14-2010, 12:31 PM
Collins and Pastornicky were okay but I dont think they were key parts of the future for the Jays

I think I agree with this. The way AA's been going after international prospects, these two are easily replaced. The Jays have been searching for a solid, year-in year-out SS for years. I think the Jays win this trade, though obviously we can't make conclusions until we see what Collins and Pastornicky can do in the show.

lovingTO
07-14-2010, 12:34 PM
Love this deal

ILDD
07-14-2010, 12:34 PM
Atlanta gave up

Escobar - potentially elite SS. Yes, issues this year but an great fielding SS who hit 300 last year with OPS+ 116? Rarer than rocking horse ****.
Reyes - no idea why he's in there, junk IMHO.

Blue Jays gave up

Gonzalez - career year, AA selling high. Cost nothing in draft picks to sign, just money, and not much money at that.
Pastornicky - potential but still miles away.
Tiny Tim - bags of potential again but he's a reliever so little value really.

Fantastic move from AA. He knows he has to have elite players in almost every position to challenge in AL East so he's swinging for the fences. If he tries to fill with "OK" players it's a recipe for 3rd place and that's nothing.

Gibby
07-14-2010, 12:35 PM
whats the ceiling on Escobar? His career numbers are pretty good.

The Analyst
07-14-2010, 12:35 PM
Gonzalez has a $2.5 million club option for 2011, but Escobar should have two more years of arbitration elibility left and I'm not sure if Hecchiveria (probably spelled that wrong) will be ready to be an everyday short stop in 2012 and that's why I think they made the deal.

Congrats to me on my 500th post! Four years and eight months, but I made it!

Bryrob58
07-14-2010, 12:38 PM
whats the ceiling on Escobar? His career numbers are pretty good.

.300, 15 hr, 15 sbs, great defense.

Borderline all star, if he can figure out his swing again.

Terrible attitude though.

Rochesta
07-14-2010, 12:38 PM
So he's only 27, not as bad as I first thought. Still, I don't get why we had to give up 2 prospects for them to throw in a thoroughly useless arm in Reyes.

Part of the reason is that Gonzales is still owed $1.23 million and it doesn't sound like we'll be paying any of it.

2009mvp
07-14-2010, 12:39 PM
Escobar is arbitration eligible for the 1ST time after this season......under control through 2013.

Good point. The SS position is locked up for 3 years now with Hech on the way as well, everyone has to like that. Weird that his power seems to have disappeared, but Yuni's still got tremendous potential. I guess all in all it's not that much to give up for a solid, relatively young SS.

JohnnyMapleLeaf
07-14-2010, 12:40 PM
The Blue Jays gave up too much in this deal.



The Braves are going to regret this later on.

:confused:

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 12:42 PM
I was a huge fan of getting Escobar till i saw Collins included. Collins should be twice the pitcher that Reyes is. Reyes should have negative value right now so unless we gave all these guys to get Escobar, it was a stupid trade

Rochesta
07-14-2010, 12:42 PM
Atlanta gave up

Escobar - potentially elite SS. Yes, issues this year but an great fielding SS who hit 300 last year with OPS+ 116? Rarer than rocking horse ****.
Reyes - no idea why he's in there, junk IMHO.

Blue Jays gave up

Gonzalez - career year, AA selling high. Cost nothing in draft picks to sign, just money, and not much money at that.
Pastornicky - potential but still miles away.
Tiny Tim - bags of potential again but he's a reliever so little value really.

Fantastic move from AA. He knows he has to have elite players in almost every position to challenge in AL East so he's swinging for the fences. If he tries to fill with "OK" players it's a recipe for 3rd place and that's nothing.


Totally F'n awesome. AA is the ****. He created a viable long term SS option out of thin air. All he did was sign Gonzales to a one year deal and now we have Escobar somehow. All we really lost on this whole thing, dating back to last offseason, was two marginal minor leaguers.

blujaysrock
07-14-2010, 12:42 PM
Good point. The SS position is locked up for 3 years now with Hech on the way as well, everyone has to like that. Weird that his power seems to have disappeared, but Yuni's still got tremendous potential. I guess all in all it's not that much to give up for a solid, relatively young SS.

If Yunel can get back to what he was the last 2 years, it was well worth Collins and Pastronicky. Gives us something we haven't had in a while and that's a young starting shortstop that can hit and play great defense.

miller74
07-14-2010, 12:58 PM
Collins and Pastronicky ranked by baseball america as the jays 19 and 17th rated prospects. Collins might be a reliver one day and Pastronicky could prove to be a utilitly guy someday i think AA did a great job here

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 01:01 PM
On the other hand, if you think about it, we basically got Escobar for Collins and Pastornicky considering that Gonzalez was signed in the offseason and was never part of the future plan.

Pastornicky i have no problem losing since he will most likely end up being a utility player or an extremely light hitting SS with speed

Collins is a guy we all love. His numbers are great but with all the questions put forward by scouts, there have to be some concerns about his future potential. Even if he pans out, he is gonna end up being a set up reliever which i have no problem giving up for a young SS

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Escobar is a great buy low candidate. the guy came up as a top prospect and performed very well in his first few seasons. I totally feel that the only reasons behind his struggles are his ongoing problems with Bobby Cox. lets hope the Jays can get him back to where he was

lovingTO
07-14-2010, 01:03 PM
Collins and Pastronicky ranked by baseball america as the jays 19 and 17th rated prospects. Collins might be a reliver one day and Pastronicky could prove to be a utilitly guy someday i think AA did a great job here

can you link a Baseball America Blue Jays prospect ranking for this season?

hlhiii
07-14-2010, 01:07 PM
yunel is the BEST player in the deal. A 27 yr old SS with very good defense and an OPS of over .800 in his first 3 years in the majors (~1400 ab). That's a rarity in baseball.

pastronicky and collins are mid-range prospects.

great move at the present time...even if it doesn't work out in the future, this is still a good baseball move anyway you look at it.

Pride
07-14-2010, 01:08 PM
Gonzalez had type B status, so no real loss there. Pastronicky is just a future utility kind of guy. Collins, despite his sick stats is still really looked down upon by scouts because of his height. A future setup man is probably his ceiling. I don't think the deal was a HUGE steal for us, but it certainly wasn't a bad deal at all.

YankeeFan28
07-14-2010, 01:11 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-yunel-escobar-trade-torontos-perspective/

hlhiii
07-14-2010, 01:14 PM
the only thing I don't like is that escobar seems to get injured far too often. Petty injuries but still..........

2010/05/15 Missed 13 games (adductor muscle).
2010/05/04 Adductor muscle, 15-day DL.
2010/04/30 Adductor muscle, day-to-day.
2009/09/20 Arm injury, day-to-day.
2009/09/08 Missed 2 games (sprained ankle).
2009/09/06 Sprained ankle, day-to-day.
2009/09/02 Missed 1 game (arm injury).
2009/08/03 Missed 1 game (bruised right wrist).
2009/08/02 Bruised right wrist, day-to-day.
2009/07/12 Missed 1 game (back injury).
2009/07/11 Back injury, day-to-day.
2009/06/30 Missed 3 games (hip injury).
2009/06/26 Hip injury, day-to-day.
2009/06/23 Missed 1 game (hip flexor).
2009/06/22 Hip flexor, day-to-day.
2009/05/29 Missed 6 games (hip flexor).
2009/05/23 Hip flexor, day-to-day.
2009/04/20 Missed 3 games (abdominal injury).
2009/04/17 Abdominal injury, day-to-day.
2008/09/29 Missed the last 5 games of the regular season (hamstring).
2008/09/23 Hamstring, day-to-day.
2008/09/21 Missed 1 game (hamstring).
2008/09/20 Hamstring, day-to-day.
2008/07/22 Missed 7 games (left shoulder injury).
2008/07/11 Left shoulder injury, day-to-day.
2008/07/02 Missed 5 games (left shoulder injury).
2008/06/25 Left shoulder injury, day-to-day.
2008/06/23 Missed 1 game (hip flexor).
2008/06/22 Hip flexor, day-to-day.
2008/05/23 Missed 2 games (right knee injury).
2008/05/21 Right knee injury, day-to-day.
2008/04/29 Missed 1 game (finger injury).
2008/04/27 Finger injury, day-to-day.

miller74
07-14-2010, 01:17 PM
can you link a Baseball America Blue Jays prospect ranking for this season?

I cannot that is just what i read off of rotoworld.com

Pride
07-14-2010, 01:19 PM
^^ That list was pre-season. Collins may have improved his stock with his unreal year so far.

miller74
07-14-2010, 01:24 PM
^^ That list was pre-season. Collins may have improved his stock with his unreal year so far.

Yes that is true, but i can see why people would get scared off by his Jeff Frye body type

Pride
07-14-2010, 01:26 PM
Now if AA can unload on Buck, Frasor, Downs, and Bautista, we'd be looking good for the future.

StayOnBoard
07-14-2010, 01:26 PM
I am SHOCKED people are knocking this deal...

Shocked

We get a potential All Star SS (what we desperately needed) whos under control till like what... 2013?

For a guy having a career year and 2 decent prospects (but not even in our top 10 overall prospects)

What's not to like...

All I hear is whine of "AA needs to make some trades" - then when he makes a brilliant move its "How could we give up to fringe prospects that won't even see MLB till 2013+"

I seriously don't get it... someone please explain how this can be bad (at all). If Escobar learns how to hit again - oh my.... 15 hrs and 76 rbis last season with great defense... ya - terrible move :rolleyes:

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 01:27 PM
At least this show us that AA is serious about dealing these guys and not like JP who sat back every trade deadline and held some useless pieces (last year not included)

FlakeyFool
07-14-2010, 01:28 PM
Blue jays win this trade. Yunel will find himself in Toronto

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 01:28 PM
I am SHOCKED people are knocking this deal...

Shocked

We get a potential All Star SS (what we desperately needed) whos under control till like what... 2013?

For a guy having a career year and 2 decent prospects (but not even in our top 10 overall prospects)

What's not to like...

All I hear is whine of "AA needs to make some trades" - then when he makes a brilliant move its "How could we give up to fringe prospects that won't even see MLB till 2013+"

I seriously don't get it... someone please explain how this can be bad (at all). If Escobar learns how to hit again - oh my.... 15 hrs and 76 rbis last season with great defense... ya - terrible move :rolleyes:

i just had a jerk back reaction to seeing Collins name but i'm very satisfied with the trade

Pride
07-14-2010, 01:30 PM
Toronto seems to be the place where everyone gets a resurgence. Lewis, Buck, Gonzalez, Bautista have all had comeback seasons so far. Hopefully, Escobar won't break the streak.

miller74
07-14-2010, 01:31 PM
I am SHOCKED people are knocking this deal...

Shocked

We get a potential All Star SS (what we desperately needed) whos under control till like what... 2013?

For a guy having a career year and 2 decent prospects (but not even in our top 10 overall prospects)

What's not to like...

All I hear is whine of "AA needs to make some trades" - then when he makes a brilliant move its "How could we give up to fringe prospects that won't even see MLB till 2013+"

I seriously don't get it... someone please explain how this can be bad (at all). If Escobar learns how to hit again - oh my.... 15 hrs and 76 rbis last season with great defense... ya - terrible move :rolleyes:


Its because people are obsessed with numbers and see good numbers in the minors and thinks Collins is gonig to be Billy Wagner type

McJoe
07-14-2010, 01:33 PM
This is a STEAL isnt it? 2 prospects who aren't even in our top 10 for a 27 year old starting SS who hit .299/.377/.436/.812 with 14 homers last season. Pastornicky is a solid prospect but he will never be as good as Escobar is already and Collins is a short reliever at best with the funky delivery. Alex Gonzalez is a fluke and a rental. This is a STEAL. I dont understand why anyone dislikes this trade. AA makes another PHENOMENAL trade.

StayOnBoard
07-14-2010, 01:33 PM
Sorry if this was posted - all via Rotoworld


Tyler Pastornicky-SS- Braves Jul. 14 - 12:47 pm et


Braves acquired INF Tyler Pastronicky, LHP Tim Collins and SS Alex Gonzalez from the Blue Jays for SS Yunel Escobar and LHP Jo-Jo Reyes.

Pastronicky, a former fifth-round pick in 2008, has a .264/.340/.355 batting line over parts of three seasons in the minor leagues. A right-handed hitter, the 20-year-old has batted .258/.348/.376 with six homers, 35 RBI and seven stolen bases for High-A Dunedin this season, splitting time between shortstop and second base. He's not going to hit for much power, but with his speed, he could make for a useful utility infielder someday. Pastronicky was ranked as the Jays' No. 17 prospect by Baseball America before the season.


Tim Collins-S- Braves Jul. 14 - 12:41 pm et


Braves acquired LHP Tim Collins, INF Tyler Pastronicky and SS Alex Gonzalez from the Blue Jays for SS Yunel Escobar and LHP Jo-Jo Reyes.

Collins has a 2.40 ERA in parts of four seasons in the minor leagues. Working in relief with Double-A New Hampshire this season, the 20-year-old southpaw has a 2.51 ERA in 35 appearances, averaging an eye-popping 15.3 K/9 over 43 innings. Checking in at 5-foot-7 and 155 pounds, Collins was ranked as the Blue Jays' No. 19 prospect by Baseball America over the winter.


Alex Gonzalez-SS- Braves Jul. 14 - 12:25 pm et


Braves acquired SS Alex Gonzalez, LHP Tim Collins and INF Tyler Pastronicky from the Blue Jays for SS Yunel Escobar and LHP Jo-Jo Reyes.

In a bold move, Gonzalez will replace Yunel Escobar as the Braves' starting shortstop. The 33-year-old batted .259/.296/.497 with 17 homers and 50 RBI during the first half, though we'd be shocked if he can maintain this pace in the National League. The Braves are going to sell this trade on Gonzalez's veteran presence and steady glove, but that won't change the fact that he has only walked in 4.9 percent of his at-bats this season and has a .294 career on-base percentage. Gonzalez will make roughly $1.2 million for the rest of this season. His contract includes a 2.5 million club option for 2011, but this sounds more like the move of a club who is gearing up for short-term stability over long-term potential.


Jo-Jo Reyes-R- Blue Jays Jul. 14 - 12:23 pm et


Blue Jays acquired LHP Jo-Jo Reyes and SS Yunel Escobar from the Braves for SS Alex Gonzalez, LHP Tim Collins and INF Tyler Pastronicky.

Reyes has a 5.70 ERA in 12 games (10 starts) with Triple-A Gwinnett this season, though he has averaged 9.5 K/9. The 25-year-old left-hander made one appearance this season with the Braves on April 12, giving up nine runs over 3 1/3 innings. The AL East probably isn't the best place for him, but there's still No. 4 starter upside here.


Yunel Escobar-SS- Blue Jays Jul. 14 - 12:10 pm et


Blue Jays acquired SS Yunel Escobar and LHP Jo-Jo Reyes from the Braves for SS Alex Gonzalez, LHP Tim Collins and INF Tyler Pastronicky.

Escobar is an incredibly frustrating talent, but we can't help but think that the Braves sold incredibly low here. It was only months ago that he was regarded as one of the top young shortstops in the game. The 27-year-old batted just .238/.334/.284 with zero homers and 19 RBI during the first half, but this is a worthwhile gamble for Blue Jays general manager Alex Anthopoulos. Under team control through 2013, the Jays have plenty of time to see if he can match his potential.

tuck25
07-14-2010, 01:33 PM
I am SHOCKED people are knocking this deal...

Shocked

We get a potential All Star SS (what we desperately needed) whos under control till like what... 2013?

For a guy having a career year and 2 decent prospects (but not even in our top 10 overall prospects)

What's not to like...

All I hear is whine of "AA needs to make some trades" - then when he makes a brilliant move its "How could we give up to fringe prospects that won't even see MLB till 2013+"

I seriously don't get it... someone please explain how this can be bad (at all). If Escobar learns how to hit again - oh my.... 15 hrs and 76 rbis last season with great defense... ya - terrible move :rolleyes:

I agree, very good move. Hope AA can keep it up, this year was done anyway and Yunel can be a future piece IMO.:clap: I take a starting SS over a possible Bullpen arm any day.

B2theRY
07-14-2010, 01:39 PM
the only thing I don't like is that escobar seems to get injured far too often. Petty injuries but still..........

2010/05/15 Missed 13 games (adductor muscle).
2010/05/04 Adductor muscle, 15-day DL.
2010/04/30 Adductor muscle, day-to-day.
2009/09/20 Arm injury, day-to-day.
2009/09/08 Missed 2 games (sprained ankle).
2009/09/06 Sprained ankle, day-to-day.
2009/09/02 Missed 1 game (arm injury).
2009/08/03 Missed 1 game (bruised right wrist).
2009/08/02 Bruised right wrist, day-to-day.
2009/07/12 Missed 1 game (back injury).
2009/07/11 Back injury, day-to-day.
2009/06/30 Missed 3 games (hip injury).
2009/06/26 Hip injury, day-to-day.
2009/06/23 Missed 1 game (hip flexor).
2009/06/22 Hip flexor, day-to-day.
2009/05/29 Missed 6 games (hip flexor).
2009/05/23 Hip flexor, day-to-day.
2009/04/20 Missed 3 games (abdominal injury).
2009/04/17 Abdominal injury, day-to-day.
2008/09/29 Missed the last 5 games of the regular season (hamstring).
2008/09/23 Hamstring, day-to-day.
2008/09/21 Missed 1 game (hamstring).
2008/09/20 Hamstring, day-to-day.
2008/07/22 Missed 7 games (left shoulder injury).
2008/07/11 Left shoulder injury, day-to-day.
2008/07/02 Missed 5 games (left shoulder injury).
2008/06/25 Left shoulder injury, day-to-day.
2008/06/23 Missed 1 game (hip flexor).
2008/06/22 Hip flexor, day-to-day.
2008/05/23 Missed 2 games (right knee injury).
2008/05/21 Right knee injury, day-to-day.
2008/04/29 Missed 1 game (finger injury).
2008/04/27 Finger injury, day-to-day.

its not like he missed a season... he missed a game here and there.. who cares you play 162 games.. everyone misses games.

I mean by that standards,... Aaron Hill is Injury Prone.

scotttube
07-14-2010, 01:41 PM
pastornicky and collins put up some good minor league stats but at the end of the day no one was convinced with their major league potential. 17th and 19th in the organization is nothing to get worked up over. If they are effective in the big leagues then they defied the odds.

FlakeyFool
07-14-2010, 01:41 PM
this is an impressive trade from AA. We win this trade

Pride
07-14-2010, 01:42 PM
Wouldn't it be great if Escobar rebounds and has a few good seasons which land him in type A status? And then we sell high on him again?

marcre
07-14-2010, 01:45 PM
Wouldn't it be great if Escobar rebounds and has a few good seasons which land him in type A status? And then we sell high on him again?

The object isn't to trade players in hopes of flipping them in a couple years. The object is to win the world series. I'd rather have him be good and keep him.

Farsight
07-14-2010, 01:49 PM
Wouldn't it be great if Escobar rebounds and has a few good seasons which land him in type A status? And then we sell high on him again?

I dont know. I think Escobar might the the short stop of the future. I think you have to play it slow. None of our Short stop prospects are a guarantee to make the big leagues or be a good player. However, if our Short stop prospects start to pan out, such as Hecchiveria, we might want to think about trading Escobar, or Hecchiveria for a position that we need to fill

North Yorker
07-14-2010, 01:50 PM
I was shocked when i first saw this, then I saw Collins name and I got a little worried, but after looking at the big picture Im ok with it I guess.

Escobar could fill that SS spot that we have been looking for for years.

Now AA trade Buck, Gregg, Frasor, Downs, and if you get a good deal, then Bautista.

Imagine a potential lineup next year of

LF-Lewis
SS-Escobar
DH-Lind
CF-Wells
2B-Hill
3B-Bautista
RF-Snider
1B-Wallace
C-Arencibia

:drool:

If AA can come away with a legit 3B spec in a trade at the deadline then even better. Replace him with Bautista in the lineup and that is dangerous for years to come.

It seems like a good idea now to go basically all pitching in the draft this year, because we could have a pretty decent offense for years to come. Add in the international signings and the future is indeed bright.

FlakeyFool
07-14-2010, 01:53 PM
bautista needs to be traded

D-Train#35
07-14-2010, 02:01 PM
This is a STEAL isnt it? 2 prospects who aren't even in our top 10 for a 27 year old starting SS who hit .299/.377/.436/.812 with 14 homers last season. Pastornicky is a solid prospect but he will never be as good as Escobar is already and Collins is a short reliever at best with the funky delivery. Alex Gonzalez is a fluke and a rental. This is a STEAL. I dont understand why anyone dislikes this trade. AA makes another PHENOMENAL trade.

This. AA does it again. How anyone can be upset at this is beyond me. Sure he has a bad attitude but I believe he and Bobby Cox didn't get along. He is an amazing defender and capable of hitting for average, getting on base and hitting for decent power. Just last year he was considered one of the most promising young Short Stops and can be a mainstay in our lineup for a long time hitting in the top of the order. If Hech is ever ready, one of them can move over to third anyways, giving us an AMAZING defensive infield with Esco, Hech and Hill. For once, I am excited about the future of this team largely in part to AA.

Our future lineup looks something like..

1. CF Jake Marisnick
2. 2B Aaron Hill
3. LF Travis Snider
4. DH Adam Lind
5. 1B Brett Wallace
6. C JP Arencebia
7. 3B Yunel Escobar
8. SS Adeiny Hechevaria
9. RF Moises Sierra

Several of these guys are interchangable and the lineup is complete with speed, power, contact ability and defense. We have plan B's at a lot of these positions and should have a really good bench with players like Carlos Perez, Travis D'arnaud, etc.

Our pitching staff is going to be good, we already know that.

North Yorker
07-14-2010, 02:02 PM
bautista needs to be traded

Maybe we should trade him to Atlanta,lol.

I posted an article a week or 2 ago that they were interested in him. They are looking for OF's. He can also play 3rd which is an added bonus b/c he can give Chipper the odd day off.

I just really hope AA can get a good 3B or CF spec.

hawksd911
07-14-2010, 02:05 PM
Just to tell you guys, the reason we traded Escobar because he is extremely lazy and has a horrible attitude towards the game. He has potential to be one of the bests but not if he dnt change his attitude.

hawksd911
07-14-2010, 02:07 PM
Also Escobar is a groundball hitter and is much better in the 5th-6th posistion in the batting order

North Yorker
07-14-2010, 02:09 PM
Also Escobar is a groundball hitter and is much better in the 5th-6th posistion in the batting order

thanks for the heads up, I just thought with him having a high obp and with him hitting .300 last year that he would be ideal in the 2 hole. oh well, Hill can move back there I guess now that Gonzo's gone.

McJoe
07-14-2010, 02:17 PM
bautista needs to be traded

Since he has kept hitting, I would hang on to him I think unless I got a really good deal. Gregg, Frasor, Downs, Overbay, Encarnacion, and John Buck should all be gone if not be the July 31st deadline then the August deadline.

FlakeyFool
07-14-2010, 02:22 PM
I cant see anyone taking Encarnacion unless we take on a bad contract.

Kelly Gruber
07-14-2010, 02:26 PM
Absolutley love this trade for the Jays. Escobar is a talented player that has the potential to be an All-Star, and we have nothing but time to let him re-gain his form. Apparently he's shown a bit of an attitude, but that's likely the only reason he was available. The prospects we gave up are projects at best. No room for Pastronicky anyway really.

You have to sell high, and buy low and AA did a great job on both counts with this deal.

McJoe
07-14-2010, 02:27 PM
I cant see anyone taking Encarnacion unless we take on a bad contract.

then you gotta keep him I guess...Rogers has money and they aren't using it on the pitching staff anytime soon so it wont kill us to have a few million stuck in E5.

A little off topic but my favourite part about Edwin is that he got a whole bunch of praise for hitting .438/.486/.781/1.267 with 3 homers and 13 RBI in only 7 games but he made 5 errors lol. Sure Wallace might not be quite as good as Overbay but come on lol.

North Yorker
07-14-2010, 02:30 PM
then you gotta keep him I guess...Rogers has money and they aren't using it on the pitching staff anytime soon so it wont kill us to have a few million stuck in E5.
A little off topic but my favourite part about Edwin is that he got a whole bunch of praise for hitting .438/.486/.781/1.267 with 3 homers and 13 RBI in only 7 games but he made 5 errors lol. Sure Wallace might not be quite as good as Overbay but come on lol.

EE is expiring anyway, so I dont care if they hang onto him. That being said how much payroll do we have committed to next season? It cant be more than $50M can it?

With our young talent coming up and our cheap pitching we could look to make that one FA splash in this offseason or more than likely the next one.

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 02:34 PM
EE is expiring anyway, so I dont care if they hang onto him. That being said how much payroll do we have committed to next season? It cant be more than $50M can it?

With our young talent coming up and our cheap pitching we could look to make that one FA splash in this offseason or more than likely the next one.

payroll is gonna be around 50 if we don't resign our relievers. Wells, Lind, and Hill are the only guys making any kind of money. Everyone else is either on a sub 3 million dollar deal or still in their pre-arbitration years.

I would try to sign a couple of players like Gonzo and Sheets this year and hope they work so you can trade them at the deadline and continue the rebuild.

I would go after guys like Bedard, Webb and Harden on 1 year deals

North Yorker
07-14-2010, 02:37 PM
payroll is gonna be around 50 if we don't resign our relievers. Wells, Lind, and Hill are the only guys making any kind of money. Everyone else is either on a sub 3 million dollar deal or still in their pre-arbitration years.

I would try to sign a couple of players like Gonzo and Sheets this year and hope they work so you can trade them at the deadline and continue the rebuild.

I would go after guys like Bedard, Webb and Harden on 1 year deals

Yea I like the Bedard idea, I think a 1 yr deal would be great for both him and the Jays. Hopefully he has a good first half and we can flip him. He needs to get his career back on track, and TO would be a good spot for him. He knows the AL East.

B2theRY
07-14-2010, 02:41 PM
I would keep Buck if we can..

I would move Bautista but i think by default he will be kept and be our 3B.

I like Buck..

North Yorker
07-14-2010, 02:54 PM
I would keep Buck if we can..

I would move Bautista but i think by default he will be kept and be our 3B.

I like Buck..

We have JPA coming up. No need to keep Buck unless there are crappy offers, which I doubt. Power hitting C's are a pretty hot comodity.

And I think Bautista will be moved. AA was on that Sportsnet radio show with Blair the other day and when asked if Bautista was in their future plans AA kind of dodged the question. But yea i wouldnt mind if he was our 3B next year, I just dont wanna commit a shitload of $$$ to him.

B2theRY
07-14-2010, 03:04 PM
We have JPA coming up. No need to keep Buck unless there are crappy offers, which I doubt. Power hitting C's are a pretty hot comodity.

And I think Bautista will be moved. AA was on that Sportsnet radio show with Blair the other day and when asked if Bautista was in their future plans AA kind of dodged the question. But yea i wouldnt mind if he was our 3B next year, I just dont wanna commit a shitload of $$$ to him.

JPA cannot play DEF (from what i hear)

secondly, dont you think it would be stupid on the Jays part to put all their eggs in one basket.. hoping JPA is solid?

the guy stats are inflated due to the league he plays in..

I would NOT be happy with JPA as our starting catcher next season.. i would keep buck again and platoon JPA

GNick
07-14-2010, 03:07 PM
Not surpised a trade was announced after listening to AA on FAN590 on Monday night. My take on trade...would not make trade but it could turn out to be a good one for the Jays. Did not want to lose Collins and Escobar has been a head case. Two things I do not want. But Escobar may be able to turn it around under new settings. It is a gamble

North Yorker
07-14-2010, 03:11 PM
JPA cannot play DEF (from what i hear)

secondly, dont you think it would be stupid on the Jays part to put all their eggs in one basket.. hoping JPA is solid?

the guy stats are inflated due to the league he plays in..

I would NOT be happy with JPA as our starting catcher next season.. i would keep buck again and platoon JPA

No, Im sorry if you get a good offer for Buck, which I think we will, then you deal him. We are building for the future, and JPA deserves a shot. We can get some good specs for Buck, which is great when he was signed to be nothing more than a stop-gap like Gonzo.

ugafan
07-14-2010, 03:13 PM
Braves fan perspective: First off, Jo-Jo Reyes is a serviceable MLB arm and would be in our pen if it wasn't already one of the best in baseball. He'll be pretty useful for you guys.

Escobar is a better player than Gonzalez any way you look at it, yes, but he's had countless issues with the best player's manager in baseball. If you can't play under Bobby Cox, you surely can't play under anybody else. He is often times lazy and never apologetic. He was a clubhouse cancer for us, but if you guys can get his head on straight, this will be seen as a great trade for you guys for years to come.

GNick
07-14-2010, 03:25 PM
Braves fan perspective: First off, Jo-Jo Reyes is a serviceable MLB arm and would be in our pen if it wasn't already one of the best in baseball. He'll be pretty useful for you guys.

Escobar is a better player than Gonzalez any way you look at it, yes, but he's had countless issues with the best player's manager in baseball. If you can't play under Bobby Cox, you surely can't play under anybody else. He is often times lazy and never apologetic. He was a clubhouse cancer for us, but if you guys can get his head on straight, this will be seen as a great trade for you guys for years to come.

Hey, good post. Basically agree with you. I think Jays will try and get out of Escobar what White Sox got out of Rios this season. Both have similar issues but if under right control could be a good trade for both teams.

Hate losing Collins as these type of wonder stories pike fans interest and generate chemistry in team

jon32
07-14-2010, 03:36 PM
Love this trade. Solid pick up if he can get his head on straight......give us a sold ss for the time until Adeinis Hechavarria comes up and takes over.

pigspigs76
07-14-2010, 03:38 PM
why wouldn't the jays build for the future??? this move doesn't make any sense to me... unless they plan on moving Escobar soon. Would have preferred some prospects as apposed to giving some up...

Shifty1 69
07-14-2010, 03:40 PM
I was a huge fan of getting Escobar till i saw Collins included. Collins should be twice the pitcher that Reyes is. Reyes should have negative value right now so unless we gave all these guys to get Escobar, it was a stupid trade


On the other hand, if you think about it, we basically got Escobar for Collins and Pastornicky considering that Gonzalez was signed in the offseason and was never part of the future plan.

Pastornicky i have no problem losing since he will most likely end up being a utility player or an extremely light hitting SS with speed

Collins is a guy we all love. His numbers are great but with all the questions put forward by scouts, there have to be some concerns about his future potential. Even if he pans out, he is gonna end up being a set up reliever which i have no problem giving up for a young SS

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Escobar is a great buy low candidate. the guy came up as a top prospect and performed very well in his first few seasons. I totally feel that the only reasons behind his struggles are his ongoing problems with Bobby Cox. lets hope the Jays can get him back to where he was

Was gonna challenge your initial comments... then you came to your senses.:D
I do agree that most of us were intrigued by Collins and his rediculous K rates... but the fact remains he was a reliever and nothing but and the reality is that until he proves to be a dominant MLB reliever, he has little value.
Pastornicky... I could not care less about moving him out, especially with bringing in another SS.
I like Gonzo, but if nothing else, it shows that AA is willing to deal veteran talent to acquire legit future pieces. That excites me. Escobar now gives the Jays a present and future high ceiling talent at a premium position. Just because he is having a bit of a down year I am not too concerned. Seems to me that he would be one of those ideal "change of scenery" type acquisitions... cough cough Rios cough cough...;):D There is no denying he has the ability, so long as he can keep his head on straight.

As for Reyes... who cares, if hes not good enough to be a legit MLB arm, then he wont be a pitcher for the Jays, at least not when it matters. I would think it would have taken at least Gonzalez and Collins to acquire Yunel and considering what the cost was to the Jays to acquire those 2 (a stop gap offseason signing and low draft pick).... I am rather pleased by this!!! Great work AA and crew.:clap:

Shifty1 69
07-14-2010, 03:45 PM
Oh yeah, best part about this deal.......


They didnt trade Gonzo for Brendan Ryan!!!!:clap::D

Rochesta
07-14-2010, 03:45 PM
Also a good trade for Gonzales. Now he gets to compete for a title. He must be happy today.

Shifty1 69
07-14-2010, 03:56 PM
why wouldn't the jays build for the future??? this move doesn't make any sense to me... unless they plan on moving Escobar soon. Would have preferred some prospects as apposed to giving some up...

The only "prospect" they gave up is Collins... a 5'7" pitcher that will never be anything but a BP arm, a good one or not, still just a BP arm.
Pastornicky... who cares?? Certainly not me.:cool:
The Jays arent lacking in pitching depth and as much as I liked reading about Collins insane K rates, you dont turn away a potential cornerstone SS (premium position to be sure) for a reliever no matter how much he is dominating DOUBLE A.:rolleyes:

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 04:08 PM
JPA cannot play DEF (from what i hear)

secondly, dont you think it would be stupid on the Jays part to put all their eggs in one basket.. hoping JPA is solid?

the guy stats are inflated due to the league he plays in..

I would NOT be happy with JPA as our starting catcher next season.. i would keep buck again and platoon JPA

Buck was nothing more than a fringe starter before this season and will probably go back to that level next year. These kind of catchers aren't hard to get. We got a couple of servicable years from Barajas the same way.

I would definitely trade him and give JPA a chance and see what he does with it. and no we aren't putting our eggs in 1 basket. We have 4 catching prospects other than JPA who could come up in the future if JPA doesn't work out

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 04:12 PM
why wouldn't the jays build for the future??? this move doesn't make any sense to me... unless they plan on moving Escobar soon. Would have preferred some prospects as apposed to giving some up...

we just got an established major leaguer that is young and under control with perhaps some untapped potential.

and why would they move Escobar? we don't have a SS for the next couple of years and who knows if Hechaverria ever works out.

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 04:13 PM
Was gonna challenge your initial comments... then you came to your senses.:D
I do agree that most of us were intrigued by Collins and his rediculous K rates... but the fact remains he was a reliever and nothing but and the reality is that until he proves to be a dominant MLB reliever, he has little value.
Pastornicky... I could not care less about moving him out, especially with bringing in another SS.
I like Gonzo, but if nothing else, it shows that AA is willing to deal veteran talent to acquire legit future pieces. That excites me. Escobar now gives the Jays a present and future high ceiling talent at a premium position. Just because he is having a bit of a down year I am not too concerned. Seems to me that he would be one of those ideal "change of scenery" type acquisitions... cough cough Rios cough cough...;):D There is no denying he has the ability, so long as he can keep his head on straight.

As for Reyes... who cares, if hes not good enough to be a legit MLB arm, then he wont be a pitcher for the Jays, at least not when it matters. I would think it would have taken at least Gonzalez and Collins to acquire Yunel and considering what the cost was to the Jays to acquire those 2 (a stop gap offseason signing and low draft pick).... I am rather pleased by this!!! Great work AA and crew.:clap:

haha... the text from TSN woke me up and when i went to check I saw Collins so i had a bit of jerk bak reaction

ATL-ALL-DAY
07-14-2010, 04:20 PM
Braves fan here who loves Esco:


Yunel is a MONSTER SS, and when his bat is good, he's without a doubt an all star (IMO)

his biggest problem is himself... Swagger is one thing, but pure cockiness and ego is another. He's amazing defensively, no doubt... But dealing with his attitude/ego/ & pure selfishness is a huge problem for me, and it's better to remove the cancer before the whole team falls victim...

Esco was one of my favorite Braves and has all the potential in the world... Hope this trade is the slap in the face he needs, or you guys might be looking to dump him
next year as well... Best of luck to y'all and yunel, I've been on the Yunel bandwagon since he took over for an injured renteria years ago, but this is my stop... Hope he makes y'all proud for years to come, we'll miss his glove but damn sure not that attitude/ego.

sheps88
07-14-2010, 04:28 PM
we are talking like these prospects the Jays gave were gonna make the show tomorrow. At the end of the day the Jays have what 27000 relievers already all vying for 7 or 8 spots at most.


I love that AA sold high on AGon. Who woulda thought given his track record he'd be hitting bombs like this. Is it the Rogers Center? What if he goes to ATL and flops offensively? What if Yunel cranks it up?

AA should do the same with Bautista and Buck and maybe there is a taker for Wells now? Would love to ship him to Tex for a few guys in return. Feliz and maybe Holland

statquo
07-14-2010, 04:34 PM
Love this deal. I really liked Escobar when he was a spec and can't wait to see him turn it around in a Jays uni. Best luck to Gonzo... did everything + while in a Jays uni.

Nuke
07-14-2010, 04:36 PM
why wouldn't the jays build for the future??? this move doesn't make any sense to me... unless they plan on moving Escobar soon. Would have preferred some prospects as apposed to giving some up...

Getting a 27 yr old with good defence and a huge upside is a great move. If it takes the Jays 3 years to get good (or Hech is ready) you trade him or let him walk and hopefully he is a Type A or B and you even have the possibility that he's an all-star and you re-sign him, he'll only be 30! if he's bad trade or dump who cares, imo the prospects we sent will not be missed. This trade is worth the gamble.

BlueJayCarter
07-14-2010, 04:43 PM
I was disappointed when I read it the first time here, about Gonzo, Collins and Tyler P being traded for Escobar and Reyes. Not because of Tyler or Gonzo leaving but that they traded Collins who I feel would be a good closer. Even though reports and other posters on this forum state he will be a set-up man at best. Since Tyler and Collins were only 20, I do feel A.A. could have given rid of a piece or two that were in the minors that were older who were of the same talent level of these two to allow for younger ball players to move up the system. But oh well.

I also remember Buck Martinez saying in one of his broadcasts that GMs in baseball trade players and trade back for them all the time. So maybe with Collins and Tyler being seasoned in Atlanta minor leagues, maybe we get one of them back in a couple of years, when they are closer to the show.

All in all. Very good trade by A.A.

BlueJayCarter
07-14-2010, 04:46 PM
why wouldn't the jays build for the future??? this move doesn't make any sense to me... unless they plan on moving Escobar soon. Would have preferred some prospects as apposed to giving some up...


Escobar is only 27 like others have said. He is a defensive first short stop like Gonzo, six years younger entering his prime and is All Star potential like others have said. He is much better then a couple of minor league prospects as he is controllable and is a known asset for at least three years. He solidifies the shortstop position, until Adeinis Hechavarria comes up as Adeinis has been picking up his play in double AA. And does not need to be rushed.

BlueJayCarter
07-14-2010, 04:51 PM
I read that someone wants John Buck to come back next year. That should not be an option. JPA has awesome power, he has hit 20+ HRs in each of his minor league seasons and has bounced back big time this season. He deserves to be called up this season and be behind the plate next year full time. I believe D'Arnuad will be the catcher of the Blue Jays but JPA will be the DH. While Adam Lind will move over to 1st and Wallace will move back to 3rd.

BlueJayFanDan
07-14-2010, 04:51 PM
I have been trying to figure out whether I like this deal or not. Gonzo was not part of our future plans but I honestly believe Tim Collins has potential to one day be a major league closer and a good one at that and I hate that we gave him up in this deal. I like Pastornicky and in about 3-4 years he could be a good lead off hitter in the majors although he is far away and has some stuff to improve.

Reyes seems like garbage and I dunno why on earth we felt the need to get him. He has a career 6.40 era and is honestly pretty worthless. If he cant make it with the Braves he has no chance in the AL East. Escobar is a beast and I really like him. He is having a very down year but overall he is awesome.

I would love this deal for is if we didn't move Collins. If Escobar gets back to form it is still an awesome deal but losing Collins I think will eventually hurt.

BlueJayCarter
07-14-2010, 04:52 PM
As well, I think Jo-Jo Reyes will be like a David Purcey reclamation project, just younger. He hasn't had a good time as a starter. Next Spring Training he will come in, they will try him as a reliever, send him to the minors as a reliever and call him up when they think he will succeed or when injuries occur.

T.O. Fan
07-14-2010, 04:55 PM
Just turned on the computer.

Wow. Not really liking this trade to be honest. Maybe once it sets in, but as of right now I think the Jays gave up too much.

BlueJayFanDan
07-14-2010, 04:59 PM
Just turned on the computer.

Wow. Not really liking this trade to be honest. Maybe once it sets in, but as of right now I think the Jays gave up too much.

We severely overpaid.

wamco
07-14-2010, 04:59 PM
Wouldn't it be great if Escobar rebounds and has a few good seasons which land him in type A status? And then we sell high on him again?

No, it would be great if/when he turns it around and we sign him to a contract and he plays great and we sign him to another contract.

BlueJayCarter
07-14-2010, 04:59 PM
Yeah I have been working all day. So when I came home and turned on this forum and read that Tim Collins was traded along with AGonzo to Braves along with Tyler P I thought that it was an awful trade on A.A part. That was half an hour ago. Now, I think A.A pulled off a really good trade, getting all-star, gold-glove talent for a rental and two prospects. And if the Blue Jays pitching staff can turn Jo-Jo into a David Purcey, not bad.

1hardcore
07-14-2010, 05:00 PM
I'm not sure on this one i saw his stats this year and he only has 19 rbis in 75 games hitting .238...... If he has huge upside then he should show it by now. and Jo Jo Reyes?????? The guy is young, but struggling in the majors right now .. I don't get it at all..

wamco
07-14-2010, 05:01 PM
I was shocked when i first saw this, then I saw Collins name and I got a little worried, but after looking at the big picture Im ok with it I guess.

Escobar could fill that SS spot that we have been looking for for years.

Now AA trade Buck, Gregg, Frasor, Downs, and if you get a good deal, then Bautista.

Imagine a potential lineup next year of

LF-Lewis
SS-Escobar
DH-Lind
CF-Wells
2B-Hill
3B-Bautista
RF-Snider
1B-Wallace
C-Arencibia

:drool:

If AA can come away with a legit 3B spec in a trade at the deadline then even better. Replace him with Bautista in the lineup and that is dangerous for years to come.

It seems like a good idea now to go basically all pitching in the draft this year, because we could have a pretty decent offense for years to come. Add in the international signings and the future is indeed bright.

I'd say the opposite, go mostly top potential hitters, we've gone pitching for awhile now. You need an awesome offense to win this division

wamco
07-14-2010, 05:03 PM
[QUOTE=D-Train#35;14133368]This. AA does it again. How anyone can be upset at this is beyond me. Sure he has a bad attitude but I believe he and Bobby Cox didn't get along. He is an amazing defender and capable of hitting for average, getting on base and hitting for decent power. Just last year he was considered one of the most promising young Short Stops and can be a mainstay in our lineup for a long time hitting in the top of the order. If Hech is ever ready, one of them can move over to third anyways, giving us an AMAZING defensive infield with Esco, Hech and Hill. For once, I am excited about the future of this team largely in part to AA.

Our future lineup looks something like..

1. CF Jake Marisnick
2. 2B Aaron Hill
3. LF Travis Snider
4. DH Adam Lind
5. 1B Brett Wallace
6. C JP Arencebia
7. 3B Yunel Escobar
8. SS Adeiny Hechevaria
9. RF Moises Sierra

-Sounds like a lineup that would be destroyed by NYY,TB or Boston's

nithanyo
07-14-2010, 05:04 PM
Who are the prospects we gave up ??? How good where they?

wamco
07-14-2010, 05:04 PM
Just to tell you guys, the reason we traded Escobar because he is extremely lazy and has a horrible attitude towards the game. He has potential to be one of the bests but not if he dnt change his attitude.

sounds like a 3bman we have. Maybe the two will become fast friends. Imagine the lineup IF these two reached their full potential? Would be better than Gruber and Lee :)

BlueJayFanDan
07-14-2010, 05:06 PM
Yeah I have been working all day. So when I came home and turned on this forum and read that Tim Collins was traded along with AGonzo to Braves along with Tyler P I thought that it was an awful trade on A.A part. That was half an hour ago. Now, I think A.A pulled off a really good trade, getting all-star, gold-glove talent for a rental and two prospects. And if the Blue Jays pitching staff can turn Jo-Jo into a David Purcey, not bad.

The more I think about it the more I hate this trade. If we had done this trade for someone like Jose Reyes or Tulowitzki or someone that can really swing a bat I would be much happier. I like Escobar but he is never gonna hit more then 15 hrs is a season and I see him as basically a career .285 or so hitter. I just think we gave up way too much. Collins and Pastornicky both have major league potential. Reyes is worthless. Gonzo is having a career year. Escobar sucks this year. We overpaid so bad for what everyone is right now. At this moment I would much rather have Gonzo then Escobar and I would not touch Reyes. And then when you add two prospects, one being a pitcher who hasnt given up a run in over 20 innings and is striking out everyone in AA and probably deserves a promotion it just makes it harder to understand.

1hardcore
07-14-2010, 05:09 PM
nahhh i dont like it at all... The season is a wash and then you trade for hardly anything for bp help.. Unless AA does a huge fire sale then this trade is garbage!!!

wamco
07-14-2010, 05:12 PM
Since he has kept hitting, I would hang on to him I think unless I got a really good deal. Gregg, Frasor, Downs, Overbay, Encarnacion, and John Buck should all be gone if not be the July 31st deadline then the August deadline.

Trade the whole grab bag for one can't miss offensive prospect that can be ready to start next year as far as i'm concerned

wamco
07-14-2010, 05:15 PM
[QUOTE=North Yorker;14133890]EE is expiring anyway, so I dont care if they hang onto him. That being said how much payroll do we have committed to next season? It cant be more than $50M can it?

That's about the number I am thinking. Go to Cot's payroll site, they have jays' spreadsheets for contracts and although it is not perfect, it is fast and easy and close enough (they ammortize equally bonus' or something like that)

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tlGuOwsSqqOBS4H6hAg-Q_Q&output=html

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/toronto-blue-jays_05.html

nithanyo
07-14-2010, 05:16 PM
[QUOTE=D-Train#35;14133368]This. AA does it again. How anyone can be upset at this is beyond me. Sure he has a bad attitude but I believe he and Bobby Cox didn't get along. He is an amazing defender and capable of hitting for average, getting on base and hitting for decent power. Just last year he was considered one of the most promising young Short Stops and can be a mainstay in our lineup for a long time hitting in the top of the order. If Hech is ever ready, one of them can move over to third anyways, giving us an AMAZING defensive infield with Esco, Hech and Hill. For once, I am excited about the future of this team largely in part to AA.

Our future lineup looks something like..

1. CF Jake Marisnick
2. 2B Aaron Hill
3. LF Travis Snider
4. DH Adam Lind
5. 1B Brett Wallace
6. C JP Arencebia
7. 3B Yunel Escobar
8. SS Adeiny Hechevaria
9. RF Moises Sierra

-Sounds like a lineup that would be destroyed by NYY,TB or Boston's

Are you defending our lineup or saying its better than NYY, TB or Boston. Hill and Lind turned out to be flops. Snider hasnt proven anything either. The rest of the players are all minor leaguers with only wallace proving anyhting on a consistent basis and even he has hit a bump recently. Yes it does seem like that lineup would get destroyed by NYY, TB and Boston

wamco
07-14-2010, 05:17 PM
Yea I like the Bedard idea, I think a 1 yr deal would be great for both him and the Jays. Hopefully he has a good first half and we can flip him. He needs to get his career back on track, and TO would be a good spot for him. He knows the AL East.

Hopefully we sign him on the cheap, he rips it up AND WE KEEP HIM ON OUR TEAM AFTER THE SEASON

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 05:25 PM
lol... I love all the sudden negativity over the last page after most of us agreed that it was a good trade for the Jays

reminds me of the Morrow trade where everyone but for 3 or 4 people thought it was a good trade and it just keeps on looking better

wamco
07-14-2010, 05:25 PM
I would keep Buck if we can..

I would move Bautista but i think by default he will be kept and be our 3B.

I like Buck..

nah, with JPA and or other catchers cheap and available to use in a tandem for next year, coupled with selling high on Buck is a move you have to make.

Or you cave in to his demands, probably at minimum, a 2 year deal if you buy into his season and pay what it will cost to keep him I suppose. If he keeps it up all year, maybe, he is for real.

Sometimes this forum acts as if it is a shame if a player plays great and turns his career around and instead of seeming like we are going to trade them, we buy into them. I have no idea if he will keep it up.

He is CERTAINLY an interesting case. Could he be Bengie Molina? If so, that is significant value that wouldn't cost an extreme amount to take a risk on.

I'd take the risk on him over bautista or gonzo repeating

idrinkpepsi
07-14-2010, 05:26 PM
When I saw this trade I was quite happy we got Yunel but once I saw that we traded Tim Collins who is having an unreal season in the minors I kind of got an upset stomach. Even though the Jays overpaid another successful trade for AA, we get the shortstop we've been lacking for years (not a gap filler either like AG) Hopefully Yunel's attitude is changed in Toronto, but otherwise I like this trade for the Jays. We sold high on Alex and now Atlanta gets a boost to make it into the playoffs for Bobby Cox's last year.

JaysFan87
07-14-2010, 05:30 PM
payroll is gonna be around 50 if we don't resign our relievers. Wells, Lind, and Hill are the only guys making any kind of money. Everyone else is either on a sub 3 million dollar deal or still in their pre-arbitration years.

I would try to sign a couple of players like Gonzo and Sheets this year and hope they work so you can trade them at the deadline and continue the rebuild.

I would go after guys like Bedard, Webb and Harden on 1 year deals

I would not touch Bedard, Webb, or Harden. There are smarter places to use that money then to hope that one fo those pitchers comes back to life. Texas tried that this year with harden and look where that got them.

BlueJayFanDan
07-14-2010, 05:32 PM
lol... I love all the sudden negativity over the last page after most of us agreed that it was a good trade for the Jays

reminds me of the Morrow trade where everyone but for 3 or 4 people thought it was a good trade and it just keeps on looking better

I don't see how any Jays fan likes this deal... Escobar has low value right now. Kind of like Lind and Hill. If we were to move Lind and Hill I expect the return to be a lot worse then it would have been this time last year. Right now Gonzo>Escobar. Reyes is worthless and Collins is fantastic and Pastornicky has solid value. We totally lost this trade. At this very moment to be honest if we left our prospects out and traded Gonzo for Escobar and Reyes based on how good Gonzo has been I still think we lose the trade. Then you go and add 2 prospects from our side. that makes it so much worse.

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 05:34 PM
The more I think about it the more I hate this trade. If we had done this trade for someone like Jose Reyes or Tulowitzki or someone that can really swing a bat I would be much happier.

you would have to give a lot more than Collins and Pastornicky to get one of these guys that is if they ever hit the block



I like Escobar but he is never gonna hit more then 15 hrs is a season and I see him as basically a career .285 or so hitter.

What is wrong with these numebrs. They are enough to make you an all-star at short in most years. In fact, these are the numbers the Jays should hope for Hechavarria to achieve in a couple of years.



I just think we gave up way too much. Collins and Pastornicky both have major league potential. Reyes is worthless. Gonzo is having a career year. Escobar sucks this year. We overpaid so bad for what everyone is right now.


The Braves are trying to win this year while the Jays are building for the future so it makes sense that we overpaid for what everyone is right now. Who cares if Gonzo is having a good year (that could be argued considering his sub .300 OBP) since we are going no where this year and probably next year.

the fact is, if Escobar wasn't having such a down year, there would have been no way for the Jays to get him without giving up 1 of our top prospects.


At this moment I would much rather have Gonzo then Escobar.

Really... would you have said the samething last year?

Yes we all love Tim collins, but if all we gave is a late inning reliever to get a young all-star caliber SS, I would be ecstatic

FlakeyFool
07-14-2010, 05:35 PM
the two prospects were a reliever and a utility potential players

wamco
07-14-2010, 05:36 PM
why wouldn't the jays build for the future??? this move doesn't make any sense to me... unless they plan on moving Escobar soon. Would have preferred some prospects as apposed to giving some up...

no way. Buying low, low, low on escobar (and reyes, who is being underrated in this trade) for the preseason 17th and 19th prospect in the system. And 1.35M or so saved which could and should be used towards player developement, either fa, international players, or the draft.

check out these numbers for escobar the last two seasons and see if it was not trending in an amazing direction:

288/366/401
299/377/436

Reyes is a lefty SP that by most accounts will get and stay in mlb with 4th starter potential is significant value bought at a low value

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 05:37 PM
I don't see how any Jays fan likes this deal... Escobar has low value right now. Kind of like Lind and Hill. If we were to move Lind and Hill I expect the return to be a lot worse then it would have been this time last year. Right now Gonzo>Escobar. Reyes is worthless and Collins is fantastic and Pastornicky has solid value. We totally lost this trade. At this very moment to be honest if we left our prospects out and traded Gonzo for Escobar and Reyes based on how good Gonzo has been I still think we lose the trade. Then you go and add 2 prospects from our side. that makes it so much worse.

seriously dude, get real.. how short-sighted can you be?

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 05:39 PM
no way. Buying low, low, low on escobar (and reyes, who is being underrated in this trade) for the preseason 17th and 19th prospect in the system. And 1.35M or so saved which could and should be used towards player developement, either fa, international players, or the draft.

check out these numbers for escobar the last two seasons and see if it was not trending in an amazing direction:

288/366/401
299/377/436

Reyes is a lefty SP that by most accounts will get and stay in mlb with 4th starter potential is significant value bought at a low value

I peronally think Reyes is another one of these lefties this organization loves to collect like a Dana Eveland and Zach Jackson.. but even if we take him out , i love this trade

wamco
07-14-2010, 05:40 PM
Escobar now gives the Jays a present and future high ceiling talent at a premium position. Just because he is having a bit of a down year I am not too concerned. Seems to me that he would be one of those ideal "change of scenery" type acquisitions... cough cough Rios cough cough...;):D There is no denying he has the ability, so long as he can keep his head on straight.

-Let's just pray it's cough, cough, rios and not cough, cough, EE. The 3 of them together would be some tremendous, tremendous upside.

It's looking more and more to me that we should have taken the risk on Rios turning it around at somepoint in his extremely long term contract. I was all for the release of him to CHW ONLY if we immediately reinvested the money to find his replacement on the FA or trade market.

wamco
07-14-2010, 05:42 PM
We have 4 catching prospects other than JPA who could come up in the future if JPA doesn't work out[/QUOTE]

To be fair, we had 4 other ones before JPA that were "can't miss" according to these boards as well.

BlueJayFanDan
07-14-2010, 05:44 PM
seriously dude, get real.. how short-sighted can you be?

Gonzo has so much value right now. A lot more then a guy hitting .238 and a pitcher with a horrendous era. We are a team building for the future. So why are we getting rid of 2 prospects? This is a stupid *** trade. We just made our minor leagues a bit worse by getting rid of two guys who have a lot of potential. I like Escobar. Don't get me wrong. But right now Gonzo has a lot better value right now.

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 05:46 PM
To be fair, we had 4 other ones before JPA that were "can't miss" according to these boards as well.

well considering our past track record, i think we are due to hit on a couple of these guys.

We have Arencibia
Jeroloman (backup)
D'Arnud

and Jimienz and Perez who seem like future studs although they are far away.

wamco
07-14-2010, 05:46 PM
We severely overpaid.

Most likely we gave up nothing

Escobar is only 27 like others have said. He is a defensive first short stop like Gonzo,

I definitely would not place that label on him.

My first reaction was "hell freaking ya". Now after coming here, it is "hell freaking ya, and I can't believe those guys in the forum are going crazy about giving up mid level prospects. I think they should root for the AAA team rather than the mlb trade"

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 05:47 PM
When it comes to JPA, i look at it this way.

I think at worst, JPA is another John Buck. A guy that hits .255 with an OBP around .300 and 20 HR power. so there is nothing to lose by letting Buck go

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 05:50 PM
Most likely we gave up nothing

Escobar is only 27 like others have said. He is a defensive first short stop like Gonzo,

I definitely would not place that label on him.

My first reaction was "hell freaking ya". Now after coming here, it is "hell freaking ya, and I can't believe those guys in the forum are going crazy about giving up mid level prospects. I think they should root for the AAA team rather than the mlb trade"

haha.. i love my prospects but i'm fine with giving up the guys we gave up.

and I got a question for the people that think Pastornicky is gonna be a decent SS that is able to play a bunch of positions and steal some bases,

i'm wondering how that is different from what Mccoy does? he doesn't seem to be getting the credit that you guys are giving to Pastor

wamco
07-14-2010, 05:50 PM
[QUOTE=wamco;14136579]

Are you defending our lineup or saying its better than NYY, TB or Boston. Hill and Lind turned out to be flops. Snider hasnt proven anything either. The rest of the players are all minor leaguers with only wallace proving anyhting on a consistent basis and even he has hit a bump recently. Yes it does seem like that lineup would get destroyed by NYY, TB and Boston

generally speaking "WOULD BE DESTROYED" is a bad thing.

broncosfan_101
07-14-2010, 05:51 PM
In his last 3.5 seasons, Gonzo has been worth 7 wins. Yunel has been worth 11. We're trading an old guy with no future on this team who's on a peak right now, for a 27 year old stud at a premium position who's in a valley. We bought low, just like everyone here wants us to do, and to avoid by trading Hill or Lind while their values are at their lowest.

Seriously, Yunel is a guy that should put up consistent 15 HR, .800+ OPS, .350 wOBA seasons while playing great defense at SS. What on earth did we give up in this trade that has value even close to that? Tim Collins would need to turn into a better version of Billy Wagner. I'll take that bet.

wamco
07-14-2010, 05:52 PM
Gonzo has so much value right now. A lot more then a guy hitting .238 and a pitcher with a horrendous era. We are a team building for the future. So why are we getting rid of 2 prospects? This is a stupid *** trade. We just made our minor leagues a bit worse by getting rid of two guys who have a lot of potential. I like Escobar. Don't get me wrong. But right now Gonzo has a lot better value right now.

Actually, by definition, the value he has is EXACTLY what he was just traded for. Not all prospects are treated equally. made our minor leagues worse? wow.

B2theRY
07-14-2010, 05:54 PM
i dont know why everyones upset about trading a pitching prospect

all the jays have is pitching prospects

wamco
07-14-2010, 05:54 PM
we should not anticipate sb's (15-15) seasons by yunel however, he has a very poor sb ratio.

JaysFan87
07-14-2010, 05:56 PM
Gonzo has so much value right now. A lot more then a guy hitting .238 and a pitcher with a horrendous era. We are a team building for the future. So why are we getting rid of 2 prospects? This is a stupid *** trade. We just made our minor leagues a bit worse by getting rid of two guys who have a lot of potential. I like Escobar. Don't get me wrong. But right now Gonzo has a lot better value right now.

dude the minor leagues are nothin special......at the absolute best collins i a set-up man and pastornicky is an incredible light hitting second basemen or a utilityman. Escobar even if he just gets back to what he was the last 2 years is a .290/.360/.480 with 12-16 HR and top notch defence. Im sorry ill take that any day of the week.

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 06:02 PM
Gonzo has so much value right now. A lot more then a guy hitting .238 and a pitcher with a horrendous era. We are a team building for the future. So why are we getting rid of 2 prospects? This is a stupid *** trade. We just made our minor leagues a bit worse by getting rid of two guys who have a lot of potential. I like Escobar. Don't get me wrong. But right now Gonzo has a lot better value right now.

these prospects would be lucky to ever contribute as much as Yunel has at the major league level and he is only 27

wolverine
07-14-2010, 06:04 PM
UNREAL that AA just got Escobar from ATL, and this collins guy everyone is so upset about losing is 5'7" and 155lbs, and will always be on the verge of a career injury

this is the first time in a long long time the jays have actually had a short stop not a stop gap short stop.....AA took 8 months to do what JP was trying to do for 8 years

Twitchy
07-14-2010, 06:09 PM
I'll throw in my 2 cents but most of it has been mentioned by you guys.

It's a terrific trade by AA. Gonzalez is a great player, but like I said earlier today he's not a part of the future and if you can get someone who's gonna help us down the line than you have to pull the trigger. Escobar is exactly that.

It sucks to give up Collins, but in a system that's pretty deep in pitching I don't think his loss is going to be that big. I also thought the SS would break out, but again, he's 20, and even if he does Escobar is a solid young player and Hech has a much higher ceiling. Neither of them are a huge loss, and it's worth trading them to get a guy like Escobar.

Escobar's a terrific defensive SS so even if the bat doesn't rebound right away he'll be similar to Gonzalez from that point of view. To me he's a lot like a younger Marco Scutaro, in that he'll hit for a decent average (290 career), show some good on base skills (368 career) and decent pop (400 slugging). There might be some more upside in there, but I see a lot of similarities from the 09 Scutaro. The combo of his slightly above average bat and plus defense makes him a really good SS. I can't understand why Atlanta moved him.

There's a risk that he doesn't improve on this season, but given his track record and the fact he's got what, another 3 years of club control makes him pretty valuable to the Jays.

Looking beyond the deal, it shows what a talented GM we have right now. AA is a shark. This is the second time he's bought low on a player with talent who's having a poor season, and while there's some risk, the upside makes it a great deal. Moves like this are exactly what this team is going to need in order to contend, and I'm looking forward to see what comes next.

ChongInc.
07-14-2010, 06:10 PM
Gonzo didn't have any bat potential before Cito got to him.
I wonder what he can do with escobar and his great bat potential.

jaysfan46
07-14-2010, 06:20 PM
Great deal IMO, Escobar's having a terrible year but is still young and been really good the last couple seasons which makes him a great guy to buy low. Gonzalez was a stopgap solution and losing Collins and Pastornicky is not really a big deal.

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 06:29 PM
Gonzo didn't have any bat potential before Cito got to him.
I wonder what he can do with escobar and his great bat potential.

I would actually rather have Cito not mess with Yunel's approach. He is a line drive hitter so he isn't gonna hit for 25 HRs. I like the fact that he doesn't mind drawing a walk unlike Gonzo

tuck25
07-14-2010, 06:32 PM
Gonzo didn't have any bat potential before Cito got to him.
I wonder what he can do with escobar and his great bat potential.

True, very true, Cito is a great hitting coach. (manager not so much) but great to help the hitters.

Pride
07-14-2010, 06:47 PM
Even as a hitting coach, Cito and Murphy annoy me when they say OBP doesn't matter.

Bryrob58
07-14-2010, 06:57 PM
God I hate fans that just look at stats from half a year. Escobar is much more talented offensively (and equal defensively) than Gonzalez. The Jays make out like Bandits in this trade, getting one of the best buy low targets out there. For a team that hasn't had a "franchise SS" in ages, I thought most people would be ecstatic, considering the main piece was a 33 (?) year old one.

Same thing goes on with players like Dan Haren and Pablo Sandoval this year. Everybody thinks they're ****, while its mostly just small sample sizes.

AA is doing a fantastic job, IMO.

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 08:18 PM
well... baseball america loves Reyes stuff. Hopefully the Jays can help him figure it out

Bjaxn45
07-14-2010, 09:43 PM
Wow... Keith Law went on PTS @ 6pm today and ripped the trade for the jays. Said Escobar was declining from his "great rookie year". If you look at the numbers this is not true as he had his best year last year.

I'm not going to post the stats but here.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/e/escobyu01.shtml

Jays Claw
07-14-2010, 10:00 PM
I'm starting to like this deal for the Blue Jays. They get a shortstop who has 'elite' potential. However, they lose two solid prospects and a defensive wizard.

Do any of you know why the Blue Jays picked up Jo-Jo Reyes? He seems like a useless pitcher.

BIGdanielBABY
07-14-2010, 10:11 PM
I'm starting to like this deal for the Blue Jays. They get a shortstop who has 'elite' potential. However, they lose two solid prospects and a defensive wizard.


I agree with you. When i first saw the trade A Gon for Yunel i was like :clap:..then i kept reading and i saw Collins and i was like :facepalm:...But i kept reading posts and watching videos of Yunel and started to feel more excited about the trade. And also considering what the other rumoured trade that was out there (Gonzalez for possibly B. Ryan of the Cardinals), i'm glad AA pulled the trigger on this trade.

Pride
07-14-2010, 10:35 PM
Reyes might not be so bad. People at fangraphs and BA seem to love him, and consider him the same value as Collins.

bomber0104
07-14-2010, 10:52 PM
Wow... Keith Law went on PTS @ 6pm today and ripped the trade for the jays. Said Escobar was declining from his "great rookie year". If you look at the numbers this is not true as he had his best year last year.

I'm not going to post the stats but here.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/e/escobyu01.shtml

Keith Law can go **** himself for all i care.. maybe **** JP while he's at it.

the dude sure doesn't like to hide his hate for the organization

fatkev78
07-14-2010, 11:02 PM
^ the other thing I didn't like that KLaw said was that Escobar was all BA.....while OBP is his biggest asset.

StealingSigns
07-14-2010, 11:23 PM
K-law is out to lunch on his assessment of Escobar. That interview on the Fan590 today was ridiculous.

1hardcore
07-15-2010, 12:00 AM
I still don't like it at all!!! I heard he's got a huge attitude problem and if the jays are going to have losing seasons then.............
:confused:



This is a huuuuuuuuge gamble in my mind!!!

ATL-ALL-DAY
07-15-2010, 12:54 AM
I still don't like it at all!!! I heard he's got a huge attitude problem and if the jays are going to have losing seasons then.............
:confused:



This is a huuuuuuuuge gamble in my mind!!!

coming from a braves fan who LOVED esco

And you would be right my friend... It's hard to find a braves fan that would wanna give up escobar (before this season)... He's shown signs of a bad attitude before, but nothing like he's been doin this year. Half @$$ing on plays, not giving a crap in the locker room, on the field, etc... He's got a bad case of "diva" and he has only himself to blame. As another braves fan mentioned, If u can't play for Bobby (the ultimate players coach) u can't play for anyone else.

I hope he turns his attitude around, cuz let's face it, yunel is a beast defensively and when his bat is going, boy is he clutch... I hope he becomes an asset for u guys for years to come, instead of just an @$$ like he's been for us.

Good luck to ya tho!

BlueJayFanDan
07-15-2010, 12:59 AM
I still don't like it at all!!! I heard he's got a huge attitude problem and if the jays are going to have losing seasons then.............
:confused:



This is a huuuuuuuuge gamble in my mind!!!

Glad someone else agrees with me. I was getting shelled in here earlier for hating this trade. Everyone likes it and I don't get why. I know Escobar is talented as hell but we really overpaid. I dunno.

Halladay
07-15-2010, 01:12 AM
Don't know why people don't like this deal. We won't be a contending team for a few years and Gonzo was just a stop gap SS who happened to light it up this year and he's aging. Collins and Pastornicky are a ways away from doing anything and neither projects to be full time major leaguers. Amazing how everyone *****ed and complained for yeard about getting a young SS with a lot of potential and now that we've got one, people cannot believe we gave up prospects who will probably be a utility player and the other a reliever. I don't get it.

2009mvp
07-15-2010, 01:18 AM
I still don't like it at all!!! I heard he's got a huge attitude problem and if the jays are going to have losing seasons then.............
:confused:



This is a huuuuuuuuge gamble in my mind!!!

I can buy that side of the argument (though I usually hate conversations about attitude/leadership and that junk) but I don't see how it's a huge gamble. I like both the prospects we gave up (more than most, I think) but it's not as if we're talking about elite potential there. I don't think Escobar has this infinite potential that others here seem to, but his upside (solid starting SS under team control the next 3 years) is still more valuable than that of the specs AA gave up (excellent middle reliever/speedy middle infielder). I can see why people like the deal, I can see why people don't like the deal, but calling it a gamble isn't accurate IMO.

2009mvp
07-15-2010, 01:26 AM
Don't know why people don't like this deal. We won't be a contending team for a few years and Gonzo was just a stop gap SS who happened to light it up this year and he's aging. Collins and Pastornicky are a ways away from doing anything and neither projects to be full time major leaguers. Amazing how everyone *****ed and complained for yeard about getting a young SS with a lot of potential and now that we've got one, people cannot believe we gave up prospects who will probably be a utility player and the other a reliever. I don't get it.

Well because 28 isn't that young for a team at least a couple of years away from serious contention, because he's had a historically poor work ethic/attitude (not a fan of that argument, but I don't think anyone's denying it), because he's having a piss poor year offensively, and most of all because his potential has been so overstated. It's probably a risk worth taking on the Jays' part, but you've got to understand why fans would hesitate to give up any worthwhile prospects when this is still a rebuilding ballclub.

ByShine
07-15-2010, 01:43 AM
there goes our season

conway429
07-15-2010, 01:45 AM
Don't know why people don't like this deal. We won't be a contending team for a few years and Gonzo was just a stop gap SS who happened to light it up this year and he's aging. Collins and Pastornicky are a ways away from doing anything and neither projects to be full time major leaguers. Amazing how everyone *****ed and complained for yeard about getting a young SS with a lot of potential and now that we've got one, people cannot believe we gave up prospects who will probably be a utility player and the other a reliever. I don't get it.

Exactly, we get a legit, fairly young SS with all kinds of potential, and already a bit of success at the major league level.
Giving up Gonzo I don't really care about. He's approaching mid-30s and he's playing a lot better than he really is. Somehow we were able to sell extremely high on him, and ended up with a better and younger player.
Pastornicky and Collins are barely decent prospects. Anyone who thinks they're worth getting upset about is being biased and overvaluing our own players. Players like them are dime a dozen. If they even become full-time major leaguers, which is kind of unlikely, then chances are they certainly won't be good enough to make a significant impact on a team. Meanwhile, we end up with by far the best player in the trade, who could be an all-star, and could make an impact for several years to come.
Pretty classic example of us selling very high on Gonzo, and buying very low on Escobar.
People will come around when he's back hitting .300 for us.

Halladay
07-15-2010, 01:51 AM
Well because 28 isn't that young for a team at least a couple of years away from serious contention, because he's had a historically poor work ethic/attitude (not a fan of that argument, but I don't think anyone's denying it), because he's having a piss poor year, and most of all because his potential has been so overstated. It's probably a risk worth taking on the Jays' part, but you've got to understand why fans would hesitate to give up any worthwhile prospects when this is still a rebuilding ballclub.

The way I see it, we all would refuse to give up guys like Lind and Hill who are around the same age so to me, I don't see the problem in having a 28 year old as opposed to Gonzo who's career is probably on it's last legs. It's amazing how well Alex did here but to expect it again from him would be insane. This is an upgrade at SS. Maybe not for right now but down the road. Atleast now we've got a few SS's in there twenties with potential as opposed to stop gap SS after stop gap SS. I still don't know why it's such a big stink to give up guys like Collins and Pastornicky, as it's been said, neither is projected to be anything special. Hell, I'd bet most Jays fans knew little about either one until we traded them. Usually those are the fans who over-react while looking up the numbers of a player they knew nothing about just 2 days ago.

Pride
07-15-2010, 01:58 AM
there goes our season

Our season was gone a long time ago.....Top 5 pick in the draft? I can only hope.

carson005
07-15-2010, 01:59 AM
Gonzo has so much value right now. A lot more then a guy hitting .238 and a pitcher with a horrendous era. We are a team building for the future. So why are we getting rid of 2 prospects? This is a stupid *** trade. We just made our minor leagues a bit worse by getting rid of two guys who have a lot of potential. I like Escobar. Don't get me wrong. But right now Gonzo has a lot better value right now.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/beware-the-jays-sluggers/


Escobar is a lot more valuable then Gonzo, in 09 Escobar was the 5th most valuable SS in the MLB, 5th overall!!!!! In 08 he was 8th, thats crazy value for an SS who is going to regress badly in the second half, no matter were he plays.

ktownguy31
07-15-2010, 02:08 AM
Our season was gone a long time ago.....Top 5 pick in the draft? I can only hope.

exactly we sit 12.5 back of first lol

ByShine
07-15-2010, 02:09 AM
exactly we sit 12.5 back of first lol

was i the only one who thought we might have a shot

StealingSigns
07-15-2010, 05:29 AM
was i the only one who thought we might have a shot

We gave up talking about a possible playoff berth weeks ago in here.

wamco
07-15-2010, 07:29 AM
half of the reason you have prospects is to use them in trade and sending off the preseason 17th and 19th ranked ones is just fine for me. As if we won't get another reliever in a dump trade or rule V or free agency.

Shifty1 69
07-15-2010, 08:23 AM
We severely overpaid.

hahahahahahhahahahha..... that is all.:rolleyes:

Shifty1 69
07-15-2010, 08:26 AM
I'm not sure on this one i saw his stats this year and he only has 19 rbis in 75 games hitting .238...... If he has huge upside then he should show it by now. and Jo Jo Reyes?????? The guy is young, but struggling in the majors right now .. I don't get it at all..

How about looking at any of his years prior to this year?;)
If what he did the 3 prior years doesnt matter to you.. perhaps the Jays should have included Aaron Hill in the deal instead of Pastornicky since Hill is hitting sub .200 this year.:rolleyes:

Shifty1 69
07-15-2010, 08:32 AM
-Let's just pray it's cough, cough, rios and not cough, cough, EE. The 3 of them together would be some tremendous, tremendous upside.

It's looking more and more to me that we should have taken the risk on Rios turning it around at somepoint in his extremely long term contract. I was all for the release of him to CHW ONLY if we immediately reinvested the money to find his replacement on the FA or trade market.

Agreed...... I was never the Rios hater many on here were tho.

Shifty1 69
07-15-2010, 08:33 AM
We have 4 catching prospects other than JPA who could come up in the future if JPA doesn't work out

To be fair, we had 4 other ones before JPA that were "can't miss" according to these boards as well.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but Robinson Diaz and Curtis Thigpen are on the verge of being all-stars!!! Imagine how awesome the Jays would be if they kept them.:speechless::D

T.O. Fan
07-15-2010, 08:36 AM
Just turned on the computer.

Wow. Not really liking this trade to be honest. Maybe once it sets in, but as of right now I think the Jays gave up too much.

Now that it has set in I'm a little more positive about the trade.

Initially I think I just overvaluled the prospects the Jays gave up. Tim Collins could turn into the next Wagner. Pastronicky could turn into the next Adam Kennedy. In the end though it's probably more likely they don't.

I was really shocked how there were no reports about this until it basically happened.

AA is definitely buying low and selling high. This could mean the end of the Bautista, Buck and Gregg era.......

T.O. Fan
07-15-2010, 08:38 AM
An interesting note on Escobar is that his BB rate is actually higher than his K rate this season.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4191&position=SS

Shifty1 69
07-15-2010, 08:45 AM
Gonzo has so much value right now. A lot more then a guy hitting .238 and a pitcher with a horrendous era. We are a team building for the future. So why are we getting rid of 2 prospects? This is a stupid *** trade. We just made our minor leagues a bit worse by getting rid of two guys who have a lot of potential. I like Escobar. Don't get me wrong. But right now Gonzo has a lot better value right now.

Stop stop stop.... you voiced your opinion, however wrong you may be, you voiced it.

Please dont forget that Gonzo is having a career year at 33 years old(and is hitting .260 after hitting .310+ for the first qtr of the season and has an OBP of .296:speechless:).
There is NO WAY the Braves do this trade without Collins, and please do not lose sight of the lack of value relievers, especially relievers that have NEVER pitched above AA.
The team may take a step back for this season (altho I dont for a second think that Gonzo was gonna have a second half equal to the first)... but this season is a lost one. Escobar is a .800+ OPS shortstop who is only 27....
THE ONLY reason the Jays were able to pry Esco away is because he is having a down year, there is no way the Braves do this deal for a journeyman Gonzo a one prospect , if Esco was playing to his ability (Collins is an intriquing double A reliever, Pastonicky is hardly a "prospect" IMO, perhaps a crap-tastic potential utility bench player). AA sold extremely high on Gonzo and Wren sold extremely low on Escobar (but with a reason since they are competing for a championship this year).
GREAT BASEBALL TRADE.:clap:

Shifty1 69
07-15-2010, 08:52 AM
Wow... Keith Law went on PTS @ 6pm today and ripped the trade for the jays. Said Escobar was declining from his "great rookie year". If you look at the numbers this is not true as he had his best year last year.

I'm not going to post the stats but here.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/e/escobyu01.shtml

I said it a few days ago (in reference to Law's opinion on JPA being a "fringe MLB player" at best).... Keith Law has a hard-on for slamming the Jays.:cool:

Shifty1 69
07-15-2010, 09:04 AM
As for the attitude/ego thing, Alex A did an interview on the Fan590 last night and addressed that pretty thoroughly. Does sound like he did his homework on his "makeup" and thinks that he is worth the risk. I believe that AA would have shown due diligence and done the best thing for the team... he has given me no reason, to date, to think otherwise. Perhaps, someone can find the interview and post it??
I also dont think Bautista is going anywhere based on what AA was saying.

I was very impressed (one of the few I believe) when he pulled off the Morrow for league deal in the spring.... but this is just as, if not more impressive to me!!

AA is the man, i am buying into him more and more with every move he makes.... as someone put it earlier.... A SHARK!!! :clap:

StealingSigns
07-15-2010, 09:10 AM
As for the attitude/ego thing, Alex A did an interview on the Fan590 last night and addressed that pretty thoroughly. Does sound like he did his homework on his "makeup" and thinks that he is worth the risk. I believe that AA would have shown due diligence and done the best thing for the team... he has given me no reason, to date, to think otherwise. Perhaps, someone can find the interview and post it??
I also dont think Bautista is going anywhere based on what AA was saying.

I was very impressed (one of the few I believe) when he pulled off the Morrow for league deal in the spring.... but this is just as, if not more impressive to me!!

AA is the man, i am buying into him more and more with every move he makes.... as someone put it earlier.... A SHARK!!! :clap:

DJF has a synopsis and partial transcription of the interview here (http://www.drunkjaysfans.com/2010/07/escobar-trade-reactions-and-klaw-on.html).

The audio from the PTS interview can be found here (http://www.fan590.com/media.jsp?content=20100714_172809_7916).

Shifty1 69
07-15-2010, 09:41 AM
DJF has a synopsis and partial transcription of the interview here (http://www.drunkjaysfans.com/2010/07/escobar-trade-reactions-and-klaw-on.html).

The audio from the PTS interview can be found here (http://www.fan590.com/media.jsp?content=20100714_172809_7916).

Excellent.... thanks fella.

As per DJF, I am one of the retards that thinks KLAW craps on the Jays. :D I must admit that I may be guilty of only reading (or paying attention to) the negative stuff he writes, especially the negatives I disagree with as a very biased Jays fan.:cool: As always, I never claim to know more than those that are paid as professionals.... much like I would not expect them to claim to know more about Customs than me.;)

For the record, I think this was a GREAT trade by AA, but I dont think that it was a horrible move for the Braves (but surprising nonetheless). The Braves are in contention NOW, and Gonzo is playing much better NOW, so as always there is a cost to going for it at the deadline. I do see that this could be win-win for the both teams, i am just very happy that the Jays could turn a budget FA signing and marginal prospects into a legit young SS.:clap:
Even if Escobar never returns to the form of the the last 3 years, what did it really cost the Jays in terms of assets?? Not much IMO. If he does return to similar #'s in a hitter friendly Rogers Center.... then Booooyaaah, lol.

JaysFan87
07-15-2010, 09:52 AM
Well because 28 isn't that young for a team at least a couple of years away from serious contention, because he's had a historically poor work ethic/attitude (not a fan of that argument, but I don't think anyone's denying it), because he's having a piss poor year offensively, and most of all because his potential has been so overstated. It's probably a risk worth taking on the Jays' part, but you've got to understand why fans would hesitate to give up any worthwhile prospects when this is still a rebuilding ballclub.

the thing is that those were not worth while prospects. At best pastornicky projects to an erik aybar with a little more speed and collins to be a good setup man OR very good lefty specialists. WHich is great but those types of players are available year over year through FA/Trade? or minor leagues. WHats not available? A SS with potential of a .290/.360/.450 with good pop and excellent D. IM sorry but im gonna take that shortstop every day of the week and twice on sunday.

bartron_44
07-15-2010, 11:16 AM
As much as I hate giving away one of our best relievers in AA, he is only 5'7, so there are plenty of question marks about how effective he can be in the big leagues. I don't buy Law's description of him as only a pitcher without great stuff, as the last research I did had the kid throwing like 93 with a filthy deuce. However, we have a surplus of left handed pitching right now in the minors, so it doesn't hurt our system that much. Pastornicky was showing promise, but we didn't give Hech all that money not to be the top SS prospect in our system...

Bottom line is, the existence of:

Purcey
Tallet
Carlson
Lewis
Scrabbles
Mills
Perez
Gailey

make Collins expendable..

Hechavarria in AA already meant Pastornicky had to be moved somewhere. We already had like 3 SS's in AAA, so we couldn't promote him, and there is Goins behind them him on the depth charts as well having a bounce back year after last year.

Sure these guys are alright prospects, but weren't even in our top 15, and they just netted us a starting SS for the next few seasons with a tonne of upside..


I think some people on here just got a move in the right direction for an offensive approach too. (referring to the thread on a flawed approach) Even with his worst first half ever, Escobar still has a higher OBP than Gonzalez (and just about everyone in our starting lineup...lol) He is tied for 2nd with an OBP of .334, and has had an OBP over .365 each of the past 3 seasons. He still walks more than he strikes out, so he will bring some patience to the lineup as well. I think Escobar will hit second behind Lewis for us tonight.

This is a great trade by AA. classic baseball move, and he actually sold high while someone was at their peak value. Being more than 10 games out at the break, and needing to limit some of the young pitchers over the second half, I wouldn't mind seeing a few more of these deals.....as long we keep receiving good controllable young talent.

Nuke
07-15-2010, 11:57 AM
Stop stop stop.... you voiced your opinion, however wrong you may be, you voiced it.

Please dont forget that Gonzo is having a career year at 33 years old(and is hitting .260 after hitting .310+ for the first qtr of the season and has an OBP of .296:speechless:).
There is NO WAY the Braves do this trade without Collins, and please do not lose sight of the lack of value relievers, especially relievers that have NEVER pitched above AA.
The team may take a step back for this season (altho I dont for a second think that Gonzo was gonna have a second half equal to the first)... but this season is a lost one. Escobar is a .800+ OPS shortstop who is only 27....
THE ONLY reason the Jays were able to pry Esco away is because he is having a down year, there is no way the Braves do this deal for a journeyman Gonzo a one prospect , if Esco was playing to his ability (Collins is an intriquing double A reliever, Pastonicky is hardly a "prospect" IMO, perhaps a crap-tastic potential utility bench player). AA sold extremely high on Gonzo and Wren sold extremely low on Escobar (but with a reason since they are competing for a championship this year).
GREAT BASEBALL TRADE.:clap:

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

The_905
07-15-2010, 12:35 PM
As much as I hate giving away one of our best relievers in AA, he is only 5'7, so there are plenty of question marks about how effective he can be in the big leagues. I don't buy Law's description of him as only a pitcher without great stuff, as the last research I did had the kid throwing like 93 with a filthy deuce. However, we have a surplus of left handed pitching right now in the minors, so it doesn't hurt our system that much. Pastornicky was showing promise, but we didn't give Hech all that money not to be the top SS prospect in our system...

Bottom line is, the existence of:

Purcey
Tallet
Carlson
Lewis
Scrabbles
Mills
Perez
Gailey

make Collins expendable..

Hechavarria in AA already meant Pastornicky had to be moved somewhere. We already had like 3 SS's in AAA, so we couldn't promote him, and there is Goins behind them him on the depth charts as well having a bounce back year after last year.

Sure these guys are alright prospects, but weren't even in our top 15, and they just netted us a starting SS for the next few seasons with a tonne of upside..


I think some people on here just got a move in the right direction for an offensive approach too. (referring to the thread on a flawed approach) Even with his worst first half ever, Escobar still has a higher OBP than Gonzalez (and just about everyone in our starting lineup...lol) He is tied for 2nd with an OBP of .334, and has had an OBP over .365 each of the past 3 seasons. He still walks more than he strikes out, so he will bring some patience to the lineup as well. I think Escobar will hit second behind Lewis for us tonight.

This is a great trade by AA. classic baseball move, and he actually sold high while someone was at their peak value. Being more than 10 games out at the break, and needing to limit some of the young pitchers over the second half, I wouldn't mind seeing a few more of these deals.....as long we keep receiving good controllable young talent.

I've read that 5'5 is even a bit of stretch. The guy is really tiny. lol

JAYSBAY33
07-15-2010, 03:46 PM
I really hope I am proven wrong, but I just see too many negatives with Escobar. Everyone is praising his past play of recent years, and think it's just a problem with his swing. It has been well documented that he has had disagreements with Bobby Cox, who is the ultimate players coach, and has seem disinterested at the ballpark and been charged with being lazy when chasing after balls or running the bases. He is in an arbiration year and he's not trying to play well to get rewarded. This all seems wrong to me and I think the risk was too high to take. Sure he's 27 years old and there's still a slight chance he could turn things around, but he's coming from a legit contender and he could have cared less. I am really upset we gave up the prospects that we did. This isn't a move to build but just to hold off and wait longer.

Like I said, I hope I get proven wrong on this, but for me, the risk just seems to high to take a chance. We gave up some pretty good young talent as the prospects are both 20 years old!!

StealingSigns
07-15-2010, 04:02 PM
I really hope I am proven wrong, but I just see too many negatives with Escobar. Everyone is praising his past play of recent years, and think it's just a problem with his swing. It has been well documented that he has had disagreements with Bobby Cox, who is the ultimate players coach, and has seem disinterested at the ballpark and been charged with being lazy when chasing after balls or running the bases. He is in an arbiration year and he's not trying to play well to get rewarded. This all seems wrong to me and I think the risk was too high to take. Sure he's 27 years old and there's still a slight chance he could turn things around, but he's coming from a legit contender and he could have cared less. I am really upset we gave up the prospects that we did. This isn't a move to build but just to hold off and wait longer.

Like I said, I hope I get proven wrong on this, but for me, the risk just seems to high to take a chance. We gave up some pretty good young talent as the prospects are both 20 years old!!

Welcome to PSD!

As AA admitted, there is some risk with this trade, but the Jays did scout the hell out of this guy, and interviewed people who have been around him re. his attitude and work ethic. The Jays think a change in organization will be largely beneficial for Escobar, and think there is way more than "a slight chance" he will turn it around.

If you need proof of precedent, just look at what Rios has done this year in new surroundings.

StealingSigns
07-15-2010, 04:44 PM
Excellent.... thanks fella.

As per DJF, I am one of the retards that thinks KLAW craps on the Jays. :D I must admit that I may be guilty of only reading (or paying attention to) the negative stuff he writes, especially the negatives I disagree with as a very biased Jays fan.:cool: As always, I never claim to know more than those that are paid as professionals.... much like I would not expect them to claim to know more about Customs than me.;)


Up until yesterday, I was one of the ones who didn't buy into the whole KLAW hates the Jays thing. But after hearing his remarks about the trade on PTS, I'm starting to wonder if he still holds a grudge, even though JP has moved on.

HabsFan87
07-15-2010, 05:15 PM
Well Gonzo is more like it now. I like the trade, everyone knows Alex was gonna walk for nothing at seasons end..

wamco
07-15-2010, 05:31 PM
you guys do realize that you have to give up players to get players, right?

Rochesta
07-15-2010, 05:36 PM
Think about what AA is doing. He drafted almost all pitchers this year, even though we have pretty good pitching. But he's going to re-stock the system with position players via trade this deadline. I think he's been planning this all out very carefully, or at least has excellent forward vision. We need position players more than pitching right now, so we're going to use trades to gain players who are MLB ready or close to it. Whereas we used the draft to get pitchers who are a few years out and will be ready to replace our current pitchers. We're beginning to look like a real franchise.

Twitchy
07-15-2010, 05:45 PM
Up until yesterday, I was one of the ones who didn't buy into the whole KLAW hates the Jays thing. But after hearing his remarks about the trade on PTS, I'm starting to wonder if he still holds a grudge, even though JP has moved on.

If it was just Blue Jay fans who had this feeling than you'd be on to something. But this is something that fans of every team say about Law. He's brutally honest to a point, right or wrong. I don't think he holds a grudge against the Jays as he does say very good things about both AA and the moves they make. In this case I think he's dead wrong though.

I disagree with him in this case that Escobar is purely a BA guy. The OBP is terrific, and the K:BB is extremely impressive. I think what he means to say is that the power is reliant on the BA, and I agree with that. His slugging isn't going to break 410 unless he's hitting 300, and I think that's what he means. He's more vulnerable to BABIP spikes than guys who have a bit of power. But the same is true for a lot of players, so I wouldn't bring it up as a knock on Escobar.

Here's a neat stat from hardballtalk (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/top-posts/yunel-escobar-may-have-attitude-problems-but-he-also-has-a-track-record-of-being-a-very-good-player.php)


Yunel Escobar made his big-league debut in 2007. Since then a total of 27 players have accumulated at least 1,000 plate appearances while seeing at least two-thirds of their starts at shortstop. Here's how he ranks among those 27 shortstops in OPS:

Hanley Ramirez .935
Troy Tulowitzki .849
Derek Jeter .813
Jimmy Rollins .796
Jose Reyes .787
YUNEL ESCOBAR .771
Miguel Tejada .760
Stephen Drew .760
Rafael Furcal .758
J.J. Hardy .751

Escobar has the sixth-highest OPS among all shortstops during that time, behind only Hanley Ramirez, Troy Tulowitzki, Derek Jeter, Jimmy Rollins, and Jose Reyes. If you're curious the man he was traded for, Alex Gonzalez, ranks 14th with a .737 OPS.

On top of being an excellent defender he's been one of the 6 or so best SS's over the past 3 years. And all we had to give up was an aging, overacheiving SS and 2 marginal prospects? That's a hell of a deal as far as I'm concerned.

wamco
07-15-2010, 06:16 PM
I'm very reserved over going crazy with compliments especially in small sample sizes. However, I came away from both AA trades VERY pleased after hearing them (including league-morrow) as opposed to hearing most of JP's trades and seeing SIGNIFICANT downside in almost all of them (the few significant trades he made)

HabsFan87
07-15-2010, 09:09 PM
I see nothing wrong with the trade. We keep going this route we may be just like the Rays I'm hoping in 2 years... We must keep working from the farm and our own prospects, buying players just doesn't cut it unless your the Yankees, Red Sox and Philly.

StealingSigns
07-15-2010, 10:11 PM
I disagree with him in this case that Escobar is purely a BA guy. The OBP is terrific, and the K:BB is extremely impressive..

He has more walks than strikeouts this year. Try naming one Jays starter who can claim the same. You can't.

BlueJayCarter
07-15-2010, 10:15 PM
As I have said in previous posts, Escobar is a gold-glove, all-star potential player, and like the other poster with the two major trades that A.A has done (league-morrow) (escobar-gonzo) he is a better GM in trading to better the Blue Jays than J.P.

wamco
07-15-2010, 10:44 PM
I would worry much more about "if hill and lind don't bounce back" for our future than Escobar. If Beavis and Butthead play out their contracts like they are playing now, we are sunk

broncosfan_101
07-15-2010, 10:45 PM
If it was just Blue Jay fans who had this feeling than you'd be on to something. But this is something that fans of every team say about Law. He's brutally honest to a point, right or wrong. I don't think he holds a grudge against the Jays as he does say very good things about both AA and the moves they make. In this case I think he's dead wrong though.

I disagree with him in this case that Escobar is purely a BA guy. The OBP is terrific, and the K:BB is extremely impressive. I think what he means to say is that the power is reliant on the BA, and I agree with that. His slugging isn't going to break 410 unless he's hitting 300, and I think that's what he means. He's more vulnerable to BABIP spikes than guys who have a bit of power. But the same is true for a lot of players, so I wouldn't bring it up as a knock on Escobar.

Here's a neat stat from hardballtalk (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/top-posts/yunel-escobar-may-have-attitude-problems-but-he-also-has-a-track-record-of-being-a-very-good-player.php)



On top of being an excellent defender he's been one of the 6 or so best SS's over the past 3 years. And all we had to give up was an aging, overacheiving SS and 2 marginal prospects? That's a hell of a deal as far as I'm concerned.

I've got nothing against KLaw. He absolutely raves about what AA is doing in Latin America, and I believe he was also behind the League-Morrow trade. Either way, as you said, he's brutally honest and tells it like he sees it every time (can anyone else see why there was friction between him and JP??).

KLaw's looking too much into a poor 2 months (his June was pretty decent). The only potential lingering problem I could see is his lack of power in 2010. He had a .125 ISO going into this year, and this year it's only .046. That's a concern, but it could also be an anomaly. Here's hoping...

wamco
07-15-2010, 11:09 PM
How would this forum feel if we traded away Hill (if he had same contract status as escobar) now for gonzo and a team's preseason 17th and 19th ranked prospects, one of which happens to be 5 foot 2 (sorry, as this thread goes on, he keeps losing inches, let's see how low it can go!!)

bomber0104
07-15-2010, 11:14 PM
How would this forum feel if we traded away Hill (if he had same contract status as escobar) now for gonzo and a team's preseason 17th and 19th ranked prospects, one of which happens to be 5 foot 2 (sorry, as this thread goes on, he keeps losing inches, let's see how low it can go!!)

exactly...

we love guys like collins and pastornicky because they are out prospects.

I guarantee that if we get prospects like those in a deal for John Buck or our relievers, people would be up in arms about how the prospects we got are worthless

Bryrob58
07-15-2010, 11:34 PM
How would this forum feel if we traded away Hill (if he had same contract status as escobar) now for gonzo and a team's preseason 17th and 19th ranked prospects, one of which happens to be 5 foot 2 (sorry, as this thread goes on, he keeps losing inches, let's see how low it can go!!)

If the guy you got back would help you win in the playoffs, then you would be cool with it. It's about Atlanta taking a shot this year. You wouldn't mind giving up talent for production and prospects.

bomber0104
07-16-2010, 12:14 AM
If the guy you got back would help you win in the playoffs, then you would be cool with it. It's about Atlanta taking a shot this year. You wouldn't mind giving up talent for production and prospects.

nah i would still be pissed.. giving up hill for a 33 yr old that gets out 70% of the time and a couple of mid to low level prospects would be stupid move imo

LunchBox
07-16-2010, 12:20 AM
Anyone else think Escobar could play 3b once Hech is ready? I'm not sure what his HR potential is but two good defensive Cubans in the infield would be fun to watch. 2b is an option but I've always thought that 3rd was a more important defensive position and I wouldn't move Hill from 2b.

What does pitching and defense do?

Pride
07-16-2010, 01:17 AM
^^ I think Escobar's bat is a bit too light to play 3B.

1hardcore
07-16-2010, 01:30 AM
I thought the jays could've gotten a better package..... If Yunel can just get on the ****en base consistently then i'm happy :P He should be in the 2 hole then .......

JaysFan87
07-16-2010, 09:09 AM
....if on base i what ur worried about then he instantly becomes the second best onbase guy on the jays.

Shifty1 69
07-16-2010, 10:14 AM
I really hope I am proven wrong, but I just see too many negatives with Escobar. Everyone is praising his past play of recent years, and think it's just a problem with his swing. It has been well documented that he has had disagreements with Bobby Cox, who is the ultimate players coach, and has seem disinterested at the ballpark and been charged with being lazy when chasing after balls or running the bases. He is in an arbiration year and he's not trying to play well to get rewarded. This all seems wrong to me and I think the risk was too high to take. Sure he's 27 years old and there's still a slight chance he could turn things around, but he's coming from a legit contender and he could have cared less. I am really upset we gave up the prospects that we did. This isn't a move to build but just to hold off and wait longer.

Like I said, I hope I get proven wrong on this, but for me, the risk just seems to high to take a chance. We gave up some pretty good young talent as the prospects are both 20 years old!!

I respect that you have your own opinion of the deal, and you may very well be correct, although I disagree with most points you mentioned (hard to argue the attitude "issues" as none of us were in the clubhouse, but its quite apparent their were some problems between him and the team). I really take issue with the bolded statement above.... with 3 VERY solid years prior to the last 3-4 months, what would make the chances of turning things around "slight"? Do you also feel that Aaron Hill and Adam Lind are finished as major leaguers cause they had terrible first halfs?? Should the Yanks have released Texiera cause he was BRUTAL in april?? Baseball is a funny game and even a slight mechanical flaw in a swing can screw up a swing for and extended time, but that doesnt mean it cannot be corrected once identified. The Jays have shown quite the ability to help hitters turn it around in recent years.

Welcome to PSD.:clap: I cannot claim that you are definitively wrong or I am absolutely right since I am nothing more than a competitives softball playing desk jockey with no MLB ties outside of sitting on my ***** watching them play on TV..... but I think you are wrong. lol:D

Shifty1 69
07-16-2010, 10:23 AM
I'm very reserved over going crazy with compliments especially in small sample sizes. However, I came away from both AA trades VERY pleased after hearing them (including league-morrow) as opposed to hearing most of JP's trades and seeing SIGNIFICANT downside in almost all of them (the few significant trades he made)

I agree 100%. He did seem to do very well with the Doc trade too. I think it was rather impressive to get the return he did in spite of all of the roadblocks in his way with Roys NTC and a small pool of teams that can offer both the $ and the chance to win.... especially when the only suitors outside of Philly resided in the same division. The Wallace/Taylor trade, even though I didnt necessarily love it at the time, with the apparent brutal season Taylor is having (could be wrong) looks to me like him and his scouting staff may have seen something that others didnt.

The Morrow trade I LOVED when it went down and consider that as great a steal as the Escobar deal has the potential to be.
Although its early and not currently the case, he may have found the core SS and an ace SP for the cost of Brandon League, a budget 33yo FA signing (Gonzo) and 3 non-key prospects who are far away and may be decent MLB contributors well down the road (Chavez, Collins and to a lesser extent Pastornicky).

I am gaining more and more faith in AA with every move he makes.:clap:

Shifty1 69
07-16-2010, 10:30 AM
As I have said in previous posts, Escobar is a gold-glove, all-star potential player, and like the other poster with the two major trades that A.A has done (league-morrow) (escobar-gonzo) he is a better GM in trading to better the Blue Jays than J.P.

In all fairness, JP did make some shrewd moves too IMO....
Getting Scutaro for next to nothing, trading Diaz for Bautista.... Hell, even getting Roenicke and Stewart for Rolen with his hands tied seemed like a good haul to me, especially at the time.
I am not an expert JP basher or defender so I am sure there are many other good and bad things that could be quoted... the ones I mentioned were just off the top of my head when I read your post.

JAYSBAY33
07-16-2010, 02:18 PM
I respect that you have your own opinion of the deal, and you may very well be correct, although I disagree with most points you mentioned (hard to argue the attitude "issues" as none of us were in the clubhouse, but its quite apparent their were some problems between him and the team). I really take issue with the bolded statement above.... with 3 VERY solid years prior to the last 3-4 months, what would make the chances of turning things around "slight"? Do you also feel that Aaron Hill and Adam Lind are finished as major leaguers cause they had terrible first halfs?? Should the Yanks have released Texiera cause he was BRUTAL in april?? Baseball is a funny game and even a slight mechanical flaw in a swing can screw up a swing for and extended time, but that doesnt mean it cannot be corrected once identified. The Jays have shown quite the ability to help hitters turn it around in recent years.

Welcome to PSD.:clap: I cannot claim that you are definitively wrong or I am absolutely right since I am nothing more than a competitives softball playing desk jockey with no MLB ties outside of sitting on my ***** watching them play on TV..... but I think you are wrong. lol:D



I am very open to opinions and I do note that many fans are excited about this trade, as there is evidence to support it. I may have been to harsh by saying there is only a slight chance of Escobar returning to form. Obviously it has been the past few months where his production has declined, but I just feel the attitude problems are the biggest hurdle in me being uncomfortable with this trade. I grew up playing with Joey Votto and Chris Leroux, who are both former teammates of mine, and know that to succed in every aspect in professional baseball, the work ethic must be there. To have a strong work ethic, the attitude must be there as well. The above guys are perfect examples who really showed me that if you want to succeed, you have to put the work in. I have read reports that Escobar would take minimal swings in BP, and would refuse film sessions to try and improve himself. I realize that Cito could play a big part in turning things around for him, but what happens when Cito leaves?

I like hearing other people's opinions, and being a true Jays fan, I hope they're right and I'm wrong. I am just being cautious with this trade, as past trades similar to this when we give up young prospects, eg the Michael Young trade for Loaiza has really hurt us. I want to see proof before I jump on board with Escobar.

bartron_44
07-16-2010, 02:59 PM
Anyone else think Escobar could play 3b once Hech is ready? I'm not sure what his HR potential is but two good defensive Cubans in the infield would be fun to watch. 2b is an option but I've always thought that 3rd was a more important defensive position and I wouldn't move Hill from 2b.

What does pitching and defense do?

I think he definitely has the arm and size to play 3rd, but he isn't the prototypical 3rd baseman. Hill has the hands and the arm to play 3rd imo. I realize he is great defensively atm, but in 2 years, he will be in hitting 30, so he won't have the range that he once had. He also has the power you want from a corner infielder more so than Escobar does.

I would let Hill play 2nd until Hech is ready in another year or so, and if Hill turns things around with the bat again, trade him or move him to 3rd.

Imagine the ground Hech and Escobar would cover..and how much help it would be for Hech to have another Cuban on the roster to learn from.

bartron_44
07-16-2010, 03:05 PM
I am very open to opinions and I do note that many fans are excited about this trade, as there is evidence to support it. I may have been to harsh by saying there is only a slight chance of Escobar returning to form. Obviously it has been the past few months where his production has declined, but I just feel the attitude problems are the biggest hurdle in me being uncomfortable with this trade. I grew up playing with Joey Votto and Chris Leroux, who are both former teammates of mine, and know that to succed in every aspect in professional baseball, the work ethic must be there. To have a strong work ethic, the attitude must be there as well. The above guys are perfect examples who really showed me that if you want to succeed, you have to put the work in. I have read reports that Escobar would take minimal swings in BP, and would refuse film sessions to try and improve himself. I realize that Cito could play a big part in turning things around for him, but what happens when Cito leaves?

I like hearing other people's opinions, and being a true Jays fan, I hope they're right and I'm wrong. I am just being cautious with this trade, as past trades similar to this when we give up young prospects, eg the Michael Young trade for Loaiza has really hurt us. I want to see proof before I jump on board with Escobar.

The proof is in his production over the past 3 years. The numbers also call BS on Keith Laws interpretation of Escobar. He is not regressing each year gradually, as I would say his numbers were better in 09 than they were in 08. He hit for more power, a better average, got on base more and drove in more runs..This is just a bad year for him, he will be near the top of our order for the next few years I would expect...

carson005
07-16-2010, 03:18 PM
The proof is in his production over the past 3 years. The numbers also call BS on Keith Laws interpretation of Escobar. He is not regressing each year gradually, as I would say his numbers were better in 09 than they were in 08. He hit for more power, a better average, got on base more and drove in more runs..This is just a bad year for him, he will be near the top of our order for the next few years I would expect...

Hes was a full win better in 09 then 08


Escobar hasn't even been THAT bad this year, except hes lost a lot of power for some reason(he hasn't hit a HR this year)

But his average is deceiving, his LD%(line drive) and FB%(Fly ball) are nearly identical to his last two seasons. His IFFB%(Infield Fly Ball) is way up from 3.6% to 11.4%. But his BABIP(batting average on balls in play) is way down from .311 and .317 to .270. SO basically hes hitting the same amount of groundballs and linedrives, except less are falling for hits this season

inspekta76
07-16-2010, 10:09 PM
I personally love this trade for "the future" middle of the infield with Escobar and Hechavarria...for a much more detailed analysis check out this BJ site (thats Blue Jays-LOL).
http://1bluejaysway.blogspot.com/2010/07/blockbuster.html

donatolla
07-17-2010, 07:26 PM
Really like the trade...although I do wish we had've held onto Collins. I was looking forward to seeing him in the bigs.