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Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 10:36 PM
Many NBA players were upset with the decision made by LeBron James to join the Heat, in what is perceived as an easier way to win a title.

But Dan Gilbert's open letter created sympathy for James, according to one former player.

"The players were all mad at LeBron," said an insider, a former player of enormous influence. "Nobody respects him for going after a championship like that. They want to beat him now more than ever.

"But when the owner acted the way he did, he was letting LeBron off the hook. Now the players feel like they have to come to LeBron's defense and back him up against Gilbert."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/ian_thomsen/07/12/dan.gilbert/index.html?eref=sihp

Jaji
07-12-2010, 10:41 PM
Misleading thread title...

soonabooma
07-12-2010, 10:44 PM
Dan Gilbert was 100% right on the money. It's great that he said what he did about Lebron. The dude is a total pussyfart and everybody knows it. Well, maybe Wade, Bosh, and his MOMMA don't know it, but pretty much everybody else does.

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 10:44 PM
^^^ did u read the quotation?

How is it misleading?

Draco
07-12-2010, 10:47 PM
"It goes back to the pressure," Gilbert said. "Miami is a good town, but is it a basketball town? Where is the pressure? For him, I think he does not like that burden, that pressure, and Miami is not going to be the pressure cooker of New York City, especially now that he's there with Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh and Pat Riley. That's what it really comes down to. I think that's where his decision comes from."

This... dude's going to take his talents to "South Beach."

Jaji
07-12-2010, 10:49 PM
^^^ did u read the quotation?

How is it misleading?

Because he goes on to defend James. You made it seem like the whole article is about LeBron's peers not respecting him and its not.

ARMIN12NBA
07-12-2010, 10:49 PM
Lebron, back in 2006, said how he didn't respect ring chasers and that he would never become one. He said he wanted to win a championship in Cleveland and finish off what he started.

Lebron became what he never wanted to become and at such a young age (as opposed to a Malone or Payton in their late 30s).

If Lebron doesn't respect ring chasers, why should the other players?

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 10:51 PM
Lebron, back in 2006, said how he didn't respect ring chasers and that he would never become one. He said he wanted to win a championship in Cleveland and finish off what he started.

Lebron became what he never wanted to become and at such a young age (as opposed to a Malone or Payton in their late 30s).

If Lebron doesn't respect ring chasers, why should the other players?

correction bron Correction

Lebron James said he does not want to become a ring chaser thats totally different to saying he'd never become one. C'mon

Sixerlover
07-12-2010, 10:51 PM
UGH.. LeBron, LeBron, LeBron. I dare everybody on PSD not to type the name LeBron or Miami for 2 days.

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 10:53 PM
http://www.hoopsnotes.com/2010/07/lebron-i-dont-want-to-go-ring-chasing/


"I don't want to go ringchasing, as I call it; you know, going to a team that's already pretty established and trying to win a ring with them. I want to stay with the Cavs and build a champion."

ecorrea
07-12-2010, 10:53 PM
what a ***** he is

Draco
07-12-2010, 10:56 PM
UGH.. LeBron, LeBron, LeBron. I dare everybody on PSD not to type the name LeBron or Miami for 2 days.

And in other basketball news... "Pacers will probably stay in Indiana through at least 2020" :p

bbblack40
07-12-2010, 10:57 PM
http://www.hoopsnotes.com/2010/07/lebron-i-dont-want-to-go-ring-chasing/

When lebron signed with the heat the only player on the team was mario chalmers. that's established?

kntresistheheat
07-12-2010, 10:57 PM
Get over it! Are you guys that bitter and you keep going on with lebron and miami. We would of been fine if lebron stayed in cleveland or went to chicago, he wanted to become of something really big and this is it. Just enjoy the show!

Jaji
07-12-2010, 10:57 PM
How is LeBron ring chasing when the only reason Miami is a contender is because they have LeBron?

D1JM
07-12-2010, 10:58 PM
just leave the miami heat alone man. They got their trio and lets leave it at that. Nothing we can do about it but say you guys played us all along lol

Jaji
07-12-2010, 10:58 PM
http://www.hoopsnotes.com/2010/07/lebron-i-dont-want-to-go-ring-chasing/

The Heat are "established"? The just got WHUPPED in the 1st round. The only reason they're contenders now is because they went out and got a guy named LeBron.

believeinNYK
07-12-2010, 10:59 PM
Lebron was a sidekick

ARMIN12NBA
07-12-2010, 11:00 PM
When lebron signed with the heat the only player on the team was mario chalmers. that's established?

Dwyane Wade. Chris Bosh. Don't hit me with technicalities. Lebron said he went to the Heat to join two (already established) star players.

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 11:00 PM
Lebron was a sidekick

:facepalm:

ARMIN12NBA
07-12-2010, 11:01 PM
The Heat are "established"? The just got WHUPPED in the 1st round. The only reason they're contenders now is because they went out and got a guy named LeBron.

If they just had Wade and Bosh and used the rest of that plentiful cap space to surround them with 5-6 quality players, then they would still be contenders and there would probably be less questions about chemistry because we would all know Wade would be the man. Truth.

Jaji
07-12-2010, 11:02 PM
Dwyane Wade. Chris Bosh. Don't hit me with technicalities. Lebron said he went to the Heat to join two (already established) star players.

Wade just took another embarrassing 1st round exit and Bosh wasn't even in the playoffs. The only reason Miami is a contender now is because of LeBron.

D1JM
07-12-2010, 11:04 PM
can we start making D Rose threads already? I kinda miss those and the whole
every other PG in the World>drose

hgtiger32
07-12-2010, 11:05 PM
http://www.hoopsnotes.com/2010/07/lebron-i-dont-want-to-go-ring-chasing/

that's the thing tho- Miami Heat are NOT established. what he meant is if he's 31 or so and still ringless as a Cav, he didn't wanna go sign with the Lakers, Spurs, Celtics, etc...JUST to get a ring. this is different...

Jaji
07-12-2010, 11:05 PM
If they just had Wade and Bosh and used the rest of that plentiful cap space to surround them with 5-6 quality players, then they would still be contenders and there would probably be less questions about chemistry because we would all know Wade would be the man. Truth.

No, they might get out of the 1st round this time but they would not be title contenders. Not with Boston, Orland, or even Atlanta around. Not to mention the Lakers out West. Bosh is not the superstar people are pretending he is. And chemistry won't be an issue at all as LeBron is one of the most unselfish players in the history of the game. I would never compare to LeBron to Jordan just because their games are so different. Kobe plays like Mike, but LeBron plays more like Magic, just way more athletic and a better scorer. Magic was a better passer though.

blacknell
07-12-2010, 11:06 PM
who is the player? shaq?

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 11:09 PM
that's the thing tho- Miami Heat are NOT established. what he meant is if he's 31 or so and still ringless as a Cav, he didn't wanna go sign with the Lakers, Spurs, Celtics, etc...JUST to get a ring. this is different...

i'm backing the Heat to be successful but you guys need to stop being so technical. He somewhat contradicted himself and didn't stay true to his promises to Cleveland. That is FACT!

still1ballin
07-12-2010, 11:09 PM
Also, didn't James say he would not stop until he gets a championship in Cleveland or something like that.

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 11:10 PM
also, didn't james say he would not stop until he gets a championship in cleveland or something like that.

fact!

prodigy
07-12-2010, 11:14 PM
The dude is a total pussyfart


Those are not good, totally kills the vibe.

As a Cleveland fan everyone needs to move on. Lebron screwed us ok its over with now. Gilbert defended Cleveland, got bashed for it whatever. Its all over lets move on.

kntresistheheat
07-12-2010, 11:15 PM
Who cares???? Do you guys get paid for bashing lebron??

kntresistheheat
07-12-2010, 11:17 PM
You know who is a good team???? The Chicago Bulls!!

prodigy
07-12-2010, 11:18 PM
Who cares???? Do you guys get paid for bashing lebron??


do you get paid to suck his ****.

You set me up for that. lol

cle12152433
07-12-2010, 11:19 PM
do you get paid to suck his ****.

You set me up for that. lol

:punish

Bigbadmoffo
07-12-2010, 11:21 PM
Get over it! Are you guys that bitter and you keep going on with lebron and miami. We would of been fine if lebron stayed in cleveland or went to chicago, he wanted to become of something really big and this is it. Just enjoy the show!

I'm not bitter but Lebron is still pretty two faced. Is it bitter to get mad at a terrorist for accomplishing a terrorist attack.

Bigbadmoffo
07-12-2010, 11:23 PM
Who cares???? Do you guys get paid for bashing lebron??

That's like saying do i get payed for bashing child molesters. I do it because it's the right thing to do.

cle12152433
07-12-2010, 11:24 PM
is it bitter to get mad at a terrorist for accomplishing a terrorist attack.

:9/11:

cle12152433
07-12-2010, 11:24 PM
That's like saying do i get payed for bashing child molesters. I do it because it's the right thing to do.

:moon:

justinnum1
07-12-2010, 11:25 PM
Lebron, back in 2006, said how he didn't respect ring chasers and that he would never become one. He said he wanted to win a championship in Cleveland and finish off what he started.

Lebron became what he never wanted to become and at such a young age (as opposed to a Malone or Payton in their late 30s).

If Lebron doesn't respect ring chasers, why should the other players?

Who would have thought in 7 seasons, Cle would fail to not only get lebron a legit number 2 guy, but players that fit around him(shooters)?

ARMIN12NBA
07-12-2010, 11:25 PM
No, they might get out of the 1st round this time but they would not be title contenders. Not with Boston, Orland, or even Atlanta around. Not to mention the Lakers out West. Bosh is not the superstar people are pretending he is. And chemistry won't be an issue at all as LeBron is one of the most unselfish players in the history of the game. I would never compare to LeBron to Jordan just because their games are so different. Kobe plays like Mike, but LeBron plays more like Magic, just way more athletic and a better scorer. Magic was a better passer though.

I forgot that Miami is still in a delusional state of mind right now.

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 11:25 PM
That's like saying do i get payed for bashing child molesters. I do it because it's the right thing to do.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

kjoke
07-12-2010, 11:27 PM
im sure if lebron went somewhere else then everything would be ok, instead he goes to a team who just got kicked out of the 1st round and has the potenial to become a dynsty, thats not ring chasing

ARMIN12NBA
07-12-2010, 11:28 PM
Who would have thought in 7 seasons, Cle would fail to not only get lebron a legit number 2 guy, but players that fit around him(shooters)?

I don't know what you are talking about. Cavs management went out and got every player that Lebron wanted (Jamison, Shaq, Mo, etc.). The Cavs surrounded him with the most 40+% 3 pt. shooters than any other team in the league had. He always had a great outside shooting team around him as well as good mid-range shooting big men.

kjoke
07-12-2010, 11:28 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

dam straight, aint nothing wrong with child molesting :cool:

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 11:31 PM
I've been just as big a LeBron defender as anyone here. More so than most Heat fans but if you say that he isn't chasing then you guys are truly being delusional. He is doing what's best for him and joining a team that had the most potential to form the next NBA dynasty. Was is the right decision?.... YES..... is it chasing a ship?.... YES!!! Is there anything wrong with that. Hell NO! It was the right "decision". Especially seeing how little his former owner thought of him.

ARMIN12NBA
07-12-2010, 11:32 PM
Are Heat fans really arguing that Lebron joining a team that got bumped out the first round makes it not ring chasing? He admittedly said he went to Miami to join two other superstars and win rings. :laugh:

ldc62
07-12-2010, 11:33 PM
Which players were they? The Cavs?

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 11:34 PM
Are Heat fans really arguing that Lebron joining a team that got bumped out the first round makes it not ring chasing? He admittedly said he went to Miami to join two other superstars and win rings. :laugh:

I disagreed with damn near everything else you said prior to this but you are spot on here. I personally see nothing wrong with the decision though.

Master Mind
07-12-2010, 11:34 PM
What's with this ring chasing stuff? That's what you play the games for, to get a ring. So logically all of them are ring chasing...

JordansBulls
07-12-2010, 11:34 PM
Who would have thought in 7 seasons, Cle would fail to not only get lebron a legit number 2 guy, but players that fit around him(shooters)?

He got Shaq a guy who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp. Jamsion a career 20 and 8 player and 3x allstar. Mo a 17 and 6 guy, Big Z a 2x allstar and an allstar before Lebron ever played with the Cavs. In fact made the allstar team again in Lebron's 2nd season.

cle12152433
07-12-2010, 11:37 PM
dam straight, aint nothing wrong with child molesting :cool:

:laugh2:

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 11:38 PM
He got Shaq a guy who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp. Jamsion a career 20 and 8 player and 3x allstar. Mo a 17 and 6 guy, Big Z a 2x allstar and an allstar before Lebron ever played with the Cavs. In fact made the allstar team again in Lebron's 2nd season.

c'mon JB none of them were LEGIT #2s on a championship calibre team and you know it.

prodigy
07-12-2010, 11:38 PM
Western Conference executive: "LeBron has done more recruiting in the last five days than he did in the last 3 years." BW

Found that interesting.

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 11:38 PM
What's with this ring chasing stuff? That's what you play the games for, to get a ring. So logically all of them are ring chasing...

:nod:

daleja424
07-12-2010, 11:39 PM
Wade just took another embarrassing 1st round exit and Bosh wasn't even in the playoffs. The only reason Miami is a contender now is because of LeBron.

wow. did you watch the playoffs? Wade had the HEAT nearly take down the eventual Eastern Conf winners in the Boston celtics. Meantime he averaged 33 points, 7 assists, on 56.4% shooting against the Boston Celtics defense with no one else to take pressure off him. What is embarrassing about that?

Sixerlover
07-12-2010, 11:39 PM
What defines Ring Chasing? Is...
-Leaving your team to go to a better situation "Ring Chasing"?
-Does complaining to your Front Office to get some more help qualify as "Ring Chasing"?
-Demanding a trade count as "Ring Chasing"?

I doubt there is a stable definition. Kevin Durant took less money so that his team can keep their other top players and continue the quest to be a winner.. Is he "Ring Chasing"?

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 11:39 PM
Western Conference executive: "LeBron has done more recruiting in the last five days than he did in the last 3 years." BW

Found that interesting.

because he has a FO that is actually willing to do WHATEVER it takes to put together the best team possible for winning.

HoopsDrive
07-12-2010, 11:42 PM
He's not ring chasing for one reason: he's one of the main, if not the, main part of the team striving for the ring. Look, ring chasing would be something like a 33+ year old veteran joining a contender for the minimum or taking a cutback so that he has a chance to win the title by hitching a ride with a legit team. By definition, a ring chaser has to be past his prime and only play a supporting role in the new team. How can LBJ be a ring chaser if he's in his prime AND one of the main pieces for the Heat to actually compete? Plus, no LBJ and that team would not be contenders.

thekmp211
07-12-2010, 11:42 PM
He got Shaq a guy who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp. Jamsion a career 20 and 8 player and 3x allstar. Mo a 17 and 6 guy, Big Z a 2x allstar and an allstar before Lebron ever played with the Cavs. In fact made the allstar team again in Lebron's 2nd season.

jb, you should know better man.

shaq was done when he got there
z is a nice role player, but let us remember that jamal magloire was once an allstar center in the east
jamison is the epitome of a stat stuffer who doesnt win. he has never produced on a winner not to mention he played HORRIBLY in cleveland
mo williams...is mo williams. a benefactor of the "great teams have to have more than one all star" bs that gets so many clowns into this game.

how about how many guys had all-nba seasons or all-defensive seasons while playing with lebron? those matter.

there are a bunch of legitimate reasons to not like lebron for what he did but saying his supporting cast in cleveland was good is not one of them. not even close.

prodigy
07-12-2010, 11:43 PM
because he has a FO that is actually willing to do WHATEVER it takes to put together the best team possible for winning.


true, spending 100million dollars a year clearly is not committing. :facepalm:

Ring chasing to me is when a young guy admits he cannot lead or will a team and needs a batman.

8kobe24
07-12-2010, 11:43 PM
How is LeBron ring chasing when the only reason Miami is a contender is because they have LeBron?

So wade + bosh = non contenders? U serious???

Sixerlover
07-12-2010, 11:45 PM
At the end of the day.. LeBron walks into the arena in Miami and is automatically the best player on that team. He left his situation in Cleveland because he felt that there is a better chance of winning in Miami AND took less money to do so. Miami isn't some super powerhouse without LeBron. I could see if he went to Boston or LA. I mean last week at this time they had two damn players under contract, and people thought they would be lottery bound because they were going to strike out in the draft!

For this to be "Ring Chasing", then every free agent that leaves their city for a better situation must be "Ring Chasing" as well. I know it's trendy right now to not like LeBron, but stop with the unneeded hate.

prodigy
07-12-2010, 11:46 PM
jb, you should know better man.

shaq was done when he got there
z is a nice role player, but let us remember that jamal magloire was once an allstar center in the east
jamison is the epitome of a stat stuffer who doesnt win. he has never produced on a winner not to mention he played HORRIBLY in cleveland
mo williams...is mo williams. a benefactor of the "great teams have to have more than one all star" bs that gets so many clowns into this game.

how about how many guys had all-nba seasons or all-defensive seasons while playing with lebron? those matter.

there are a bunch of legitimate reasons to not like lebron for what he did but saying his supporting cast in cleveland was good is not one of them. not even close.

AV did.

Jordan, Magic, Kobe etc... They win with Mo, Delonte, AV, Jamison, Z, Shaq(older), Hickson, Gibson, Parker, moon, Powe. Its true.

BronBron06
07-12-2010, 11:46 PM
Remember those were the TIMES when

LeBron has eyes set on the top prize as a One man TEAM


but, remember it was because of McHale and West unfair and uneven and bamboozling trades that KILLED LeBron's hopes of being a one man army.

Also not getting AMARE because they dont want to get rid of JJ Hickson is truly frustrating



DONT YOU GUYS REMEMBER:

SHAQ only played in the PLAYOFFS AFTER INJURY (Little CHEMISTRY with Jamison)
VAREJAO WAS INJURED
MIKE BROWN doesnt want to give Jamario Moon additional Minutes
It took 4 games for Mike Brown to realize Jamison is getting killed by KG

See outcoached outmanaged

HoopsDrive
07-12-2010, 11:48 PM
At the end of the day.. LeBron walks into the arena in Miami and is automatically the best player on that team. He left his situation in Cleveland because he felt that there is a better chance of winning in Miami AND took less money to do so. Miami isn't some super powerhouse without LeBron. I could see if he went to Boston or LA.

For this to be "Ring Chasing", then every free agent that leaves their city for a better situation must be "Ring Chasing" as well. I know it's trendy right now to not like LeBron, but stop with the unneeded hate.

Couldn't have put it better. No LBJ in Miami and they wouldn't be true contenders.

D-Block21-Chito
07-12-2010, 11:49 PM
I like how the only people who back up lebron on everything are heat fans... lol.. This had to hurt his brand.. Good job buddy boy

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 11:50 PM
true, spending 100million dollars a year clearly is not committing. :facepalm:

Ring chasing to me is when a young guy admits he cannot lead or will a team and needs a batman.

yeah and basically forfeit any chance of getting him a legit 2nd option because they didn't want to give up a prospect who isn't going to amount to squat. Even if they lost them both at the end of the season at least they may have had a championship to show for it. And then Gilbert would probably have been somewhat justified in some of what he said. But they didn't and he had all right to walk.

Just because you spend plenty money doesn't mean that you give your team the best chance to win, or surround your best player with a championship calibre supporting cast. :facepalm: back at you

eg. my sixers, the jazz and the knicks of 4 years ago.

prodigy
07-12-2010, 11:50 PM
They offered Hickson. Still not sure why people think they didn't.

xxcubs22xx
07-12-2010, 11:51 PM
He would have had a better chance at a ring this year with The Bulls...

cle12152433
07-12-2010, 11:52 PM
His brand is dicked. I live in Columbus. Went to Finish Line today as a matter of fact.

There were ZERO LeBron jerseys even in the clearance. Anything with the word "Witness" was $10, and all LeBRon shoes where nowhere to be seen.

Make what you want outta that.

prodigy
07-12-2010, 11:52 PM
I like how the only people who back up lebron on everything are heat fans... lol.. This had to hurt his brand.. Good job buddy boy


Ya, same people who bashed lebron and said Wade was better, now defend lebron hahahaha.

cle12152433
07-12-2010, 11:53 PM
Ya, same people who bashed lebron and said Wade was better, now defend lebron hahahaha.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 11:54 PM
Couldn't have put it better. No LBJ in Miami and they wouldn't be true contenders.

I 100% disagree with that, if they got say Hinrich, Haywood (or trade Beasley for a legit C) and maybe Josh Howard and add a decent bench. C'mon could you tell me that that team aint legit contenders. That team would give the championship squad of 06 a run for their money. Maybe even beat them.

prodigy
07-12-2010, 11:54 PM
He would have had a better chance at a ring this year with The Bulls...


If he would've recruited Bosh to Cleveland they would have a better shot as well.


Western Conference executive: "LeBron has done more recruiting in the last five days than he did in the last 3 years." BW

thekmp211
07-12-2010, 11:55 PM
AV did.

Jordan, Magic, Kobe etc... They win with Mo, Delonte, AV, Jamison, Z, Shaq(older), Hickson, Gibson, Parker, moon, Powe. Its true.

no, no, no.

first of all, ect. usually implies others. who else fits this mold you have defined? i am curious.

ill pick one championship team per player and you tell me if the accomplishments are similar.

95 bulls

pippen, rodman, ron harper, tony kukoc, steve kerr (look up what these folks have done if you dont know)

85 lakers

kareem, worthy. there are others but that should be all you need to know.

2010 lakers

gasol, odom, artest, fisher, bynum.

now for comparisons sake, lets take that last team cause its active now. the 5th best player on the lakers (artest/bynum if healthy) is a better asset to a team than ANYYYYY of the cavaliers supporting cast.

lets not make believe, kids.

cle12152433
07-12-2010, 11:56 PM
I 100% disagree with that, if they got say Hinrich, Haywood (or trade Beasley for a legit C) and maybe Josh Howard and add a decent bench. C'mon could you tell me that that team aint legit contenders. That team would give the championship squad of 06 a run for their money. Maybe even beat them.

I have to agree with you. Wade alone took em into the playoffs last year.

Even if they didnt have LeBron, they coulda taken the money they woulda used on him, went after maybe Ray Allen or did a mega trade involving Beasley...

Who knows...

kozelkid
07-12-2010, 11:58 PM
What's with this ring chasing stuff? That's what you play the games for, to get a ring. So logically all of them are ring chasing...

So is there no such thing as a challenge?
Jesus Christ, some of you guys look at life at a strange angle.
I always thought it was better to win trying your hardest. Hell in life, in general. You want to win against all odds.

kozelkid
07-12-2010, 11:59 PM
You know who is a good team???? The Chicago Bulls!!

Never heard of them.

Swashcuff
07-12-2010, 11:59 PM
They offered Hickson. Still not sure why people think they didn't.

Along with Z (who was going to do exactly what he did with the wiz) and a future 1st that wasn't estimated to be high. Yeah great package along with an unproven former 19th overall pick. The deal could have been done but the Cavs were moving stingy.

Draco
07-13-2010, 12:00 AM
At the end of the day.. LeBron walks into the arena in Miami and is automatically the best player on that team. He left his situation in Cleveland because he felt that there is a better chance of winning in Miami AND took less money to do so. Miami isn't some super powerhouse without LeBron. I could see if he went to Boston or LA. I mean last week at this time they had two damn players under contract, and people thought they would be lottery bound because they were going to strike out in the draft!

For this to be "Ring Chasing", then every free agent that leaves their city for a better situation must be "Ring Chasing" as well. I know it's trendy right now to not like LeBron, but stop with the unneeded hate.

A lot of people think the Heat are about to have a dynasty.. hollinger and other ESPN analysts talk about two or three rings. Now that you're talking about multiple rings whereas before Bosh and Wade weren't sniffing the possibility of winning one (or one more) ring.. that qualifies as ring chasing. That much should be obvious. The team is stacked with 3 top 10 players they're going to be good regardless of who they find to fill in the roster with this year. Once the they qualify for the MLE, it's over. And this business about bringing up that people thought they might be lottery bound? You must mean before it became apparent that Bosh, Wade and Lebron made free agency a charade.

kozelkid
07-13-2010, 12:01 AM
Couldn't have put it better. No LBJ in Miami and they wouldn't be true contenders.

I disagree completely.
Wade is a number one player on a championship. Bosh is a very nice sidekick. Then you have a SHITLOAD of space for quality players. For starters, Brendan Haywood would have been a must. Then some shooters (plenty of in this free agency). And maybe you look at a pg like a Raymond Felton to split time with Chalmers. Obviously that's not the case anymore since Haywood and Felton aren't available anymore. But definitely possible.

Russollini
07-13-2010, 12:04 AM
This is the best thing that ever happened to the NBA. The NBA is relevant again. Did anyone even care about a Lakers/Celtics Finals? Next year people will come out in flocks and will spend $$$ on the NBA. They will watch the Lakers/Heat. The NBA needed a villain. So here you go....Stern stated today that Season Ticket are at a record high.

Reyes6
07-13-2010, 12:04 AM
Aren't players told the ultimate goal is winning a title? And then we go off on LeBron for doing just that? Perhaps we should stop putting so much pressure on him to win a title and just appreciate him for the talent he brought to the court.

Maybe he would've still been in Cleveland had he not been pressured so much to bring a championship.

HoopsDrive
07-13-2010, 12:05 AM
I 100% disagree with that, if they got say Hinrich, Haywood (or trade Beasley for a legit C) and maybe Josh Howard and add a decent bench. C'mon could you tell me that that team aint legit contenders. That team would give the championship squad of 06 a run for their money. Maybe even beat them.

Well, that's a bif if right there... but if you give them those guys they'd be better but legit contenders I'm not so sure. Bosh isn't all that people think he is and other than Wade, there are only decent role players. With LBJ, you have 2 instant threats and a fallback guy in Bosh.

valade16
07-13-2010, 12:06 AM
Are you seriously trying to insult LeBron by calling him a ring chaser?

Shouldn't every nba player be a ring chaser? :eyebrow:

Swashcuff
07-13-2010, 12:06 AM
This is the best thing that ever happened to the NBA. The NBA is relevant again. Did anyone even care about a Lakers/Celtics Finals? Next year people will come out in flocks and will spend $$$ on the NBA. They will watch the Lakers/Heat. The NBA needed a villain. So here you go....Stern stated today that Season Ticket are at a record high.

:nod:

its just part of the soap opera of sports... I'm Loving all of it. Stern is loving it. But a hell of a lot of people are HATING it

prodigy
07-13-2010, 12:07 AM
first of all, ect. usually implies others. who else fits this mold you have defined? i am curious.

Bird, I would even say Shaq in his prime.



now for comparisons sake, lets take that last team cause its active now. the 5th best player on the lakers (artest/bynum if healthy) is a better asset to a team than ANYYYYY of the cavaliers supporting cast.

lets not make believe, kids.

Artest had a good playoff game but he was horrible threw out the regular season. Bynum is always hurt so its hard to get a real Gage on him.

The cavs might not have the legit second star player, But they had a few pretty good players.

So your telling me MJ and the cavs would not have beaten the Celtics?

In the last three games lebron shot 18-58. In those three games he also had 19 TO's. lets be honest, I could've helped the cavs more.

Draco
07-13-2010, 12:08 AM
Aren't players told the ultimate goal is winning a title? And then we go off on LeBron for doing just that? Perhaps we should stop putting so much pressure on him to win a title and just appreciate him for the talent he brought to the court.

Maybe he would've still been in Cleveland had he not been pressured so much to bring a championship.

Take it up with Lebron's peers, they're also "going off" on Lebron. I think it's because most people respect those who overcome a challenge on their way to victory. Rather than stacking the deck so much in their favor that winning is inevitable.

valade16
07-13-2010, 12:10 AM
A lot of people think the Heat are about to have a dynasty.. hollinger and other ESPN analysts talk about two or three rings. Now that you're talking about multiple rings whereas before Bosh and Wade weren't sniffing the possibility of winning one (or one more) ring.. that qualifies as ring chasing. That much should be obvious. The team is stacked with 3 top 10 players they're going to be good regardless of who they find to fill in the roster with this year. Once the they qualify for the MLE, it's over. And this business about bringing up that people thought they might be lottery bound? You must mean before it became apparent that Bosh, Wade and Lebron made free agency a charade.

And if LeBron went to your favorite team to "ring chase" you'd turn him away on principal would you? :rolleyes:

Anyone on this thread who was a fan of a team other than the heat are a bunch of hypocrits to the highest level. Every single one of you phonies would've been salivating and talking up LeBron on your team, even if you were a Maverick, a Spur, a Knick, a Celtic, or whatever...

Go back to your glasses houses and say high to Mr. Pot and Mr. Kettle for me.

Swashcuff
07-13-2010, 12:11 AM
Well, that's a bif if right there... but if you give them those guys they'd be better but legit contenders I'm not so sure. Bosh isn't all that people think he is and other than Wade, there are only decent role players. With LBJ, you have 2 instant threats and a fallback guy in Bosh.

Getting all three of them together is the BIGGEST if of all.

There is no question whatsoever that they could have put together a legit contender for years to come. The and the Lakers would have been the only two teams that have 2 top 15 players in the league on the same team. Now they have 3. 2 top 15 (Wade being top 3 and one of the best post season performers in all of the NBA if not the best), decent role player (Udonis, Mike Miller, Bell, Felton) and a competent coach. That team could certainly contend for a championship for years to come and you know that bro.

thekmp211
07-13-2010, 12:13 AM
Bird, I would even say Shaq in his prime.




Artest had a good playoff game but he was horrible threw out the regular season. Bynum is always hurt so its hard to get a real Gage on him.

The cavs might not have the legit second star player, But they had a few pretty good players.

So your telling me MJ and the cavs would not have beaten the Celtics?

In the last three games lebron shot 18-58. In those three games he also had 19 TO's. lets be honest, I could've helped the cavs more.

a few pretty good players. that is a far cry from the guys i mentioned.

yes, i am saying that jordan would not have carried that team. its so absurdly impossible to compare but when you look at the pieces around him when he started winning, they were seriously better. lets not even get into phil jackson vs mike brown

as for his last playoff performance in cleveland...

May 13 @ BOS 2 L 85 - 94 46 8 - 21 2 - 4 9 - 12 3 16 19 10 3 1 9 2 27

the dude had a triple double and very nearly added a nice 30/20 on top. it always baffled me that people saw this as a cop out. he played his *** off, kobe gets that line and the fans scream "he needs help!"

if you put those numbers up, someone else needs to come help ya out. no one came.

edit: artest, even poor shooting, is a better and more accomplished individual player than either jamison or mo williams. he is an experienced playoff performer and an elite defender. mo and tawn...not so much.

bynum, i agree. when healthy though he is also better.

valade16
07-13-2010, 12:14 AM
So is there no such thing as a challenge?
Jesus Christ, some of you guys look at life at a strange angle.
I always thought it was better to win trying your hardest. Hell in life, in general. You want to win against all odds.

Do you live on earth?!:confused:

Your telling me you've never done anything to make your life easier?

If you answer ANYWHERE near the affirmative your a ********g liar.

Want a challenge? Give away your money and move to the Congo and try to make a living. That's living against all odds...

Gimme a break, are you SERIOUSLY trying knock LeBron for trying to win and making his life easier? Seriously... get outta here with this ridiculous crap...

Draco
07-13-2010, 12:14 AM
And if LeBron went to your favorite team to "ring chase" you'd turn him away on principal would you? :rolleyes:

Anyone on this thread who was a fan of a team other than the heat are a bunch of hypocrits to the highest level. Every single one of you phonies would've been salivating and talking up LeBron on your team, even if you were a Maverick, a Spur, a Knick, a Celtic, or whatever...

Go back to your glasses houses and say high to Mr. Pot and Mr. Kettle for me.

strawman arguement dude.. pathetic one at that.

FWIW, if Lebron signed with the Bulls, I'd still think he was a douchebag for announcing his decision during a 1 hour special but at least I'd know that he wasn't making free agency a charade by knowing where he wanted to go weeks, months, maybe years before July 1st.

DCB/LAL
07-13-2010, 12:16 AM
Well they why would they respect him......he embarrassed the Cavs on national TV then went to a party in which only Wade, Bosh and himself attended and through his FORMER teammates under the bus by saying pretty much that they sucked and he couldn't win with them....which is different than a Kobe situation by the way cause Lebron did it intentionally seen as how he did in front of thousands of fans on purpose.

thekmp211
07-13-2010, 12:16 AM
Do you live on earth?!:confused:

Your telling me you've never done anything to make your life easier?

If you answer ANYWHERE near the affirmative your a ********g liar.

Want a challenge? Give away your money and move to the Congo and try to make a living. That's living against all odds...

Gimme a break, are you SERIOUSLY trying knock LeBron for trying to win and making his life easier? Seriously... get outta here with this ridiculous crap...

lol i was going to respond but i think that this is statistically and scientifically the best response that could possibly be generated. i actually laughed out loud.

Jaji
07-13-2010, 12:19 AM
Also, didn't James say he would not stop until he gets a championship in Cleveland or something like that.

Was that before or after Delonte started tapping his moms?

ElMarroAfamado
07-13-2010, 12:20 AM
Because he goes on to defend James. You made it seem like the whole article is about LeBron's peers not respecting him and its not.

your showing up in every single Heat related defending them is annoying
and the funny thing is i never saw you even existed before they got lebron james
:rolleyes:

ElMarroAfamado
07-13-2010, 12:21 AM
How is LeBron ring chasing when the only reason Miami is a contender is because they have LeBron?

if lebron james is the reason they are a contender the heat are in trouble

Jaji
07-13-2010, 12:24 AM
I've been just as big a LeBron defender as anyone here. More so than most Heat fans but if you say that he isn't chasing then you guys are truly being delusional. He is doing what's best for him and joining a team that had the most potential to form the next NBA dynasty. Was is the right decision?.... YES..... is it chasing a ship?.... YES!!! Is there anything wrong with that. Hell NO! It was the right "decision". Especially seeing how little his former owner thought of him.

By that logic everyone is chasing a championship then. The difference between Karl Malone and LeBron James is that the Lakers were contenders with or without Malone. LeBron is Miami's best player and the best player in the league. Any team he went to would have been an instant contender. He even made the shiddy Cavs contenders.

Ring chasing is "My career is over and I still haven't got a ring, let me sign with the champs."

Ron Artest should be accused of ring chasing a million times before LeBron.

Jaji
07-13-2010, 12:27 AM
your showing up in every single Heat related defending them is annoying
and the funny thing is i never saw you even existed before they got lebron james
:rolleyes:

I have 6x as many posts as you, guy. :confused:

Welcome to PSD ;)


if lebron james is the reason they are a contender the heat are in trouble

:confused:

(Yoda voice) Utter foolishness that was.

justinnum1
07-13-2010, 12:29 AM
By that logic everyone is chasing a championship then. The difference between Karl Malone and LeBron James is that the Lakers were contenders with or without Malone. LeBron is Miami's best player and the best player in the league. Any team he went to would have been an instant contender. He even made the shiddy Cavs contenders.

Ring chasing is "My career is over and I still haven't got a ring, let me sign with the champs."

Ron Artest should be accused of ring chasing a million times before LeBron.

Massive:facepalm::punish

kntresistheheat
07-13-2010, 12:29 AM
So is there no such thing as a challenge?
Jesus Christ, some of you guys look at life at a strange angle.
I always thought it was better to win trying your hardest. Hell in life, in general. You want to win against all odds.


I agree with you about the challenge, but lets use kobe for an example! When shaq left...Kobe tried to do it with an okay team, but then he threaten the front office by saying I am leaving and was thinking of going to chicago cause he thought he had a better chance of him winning a ring there?!?! So would this be in the same topic of him being a ring chaser?? Bulls fans would be extremly happy and lakers fans would be bitter and every other team cause he did'nt choose their team. Please dont come with that kobe use that he was leaving to scare the front office (which it did work:D)

justinnum1
07-13-2010, 12:30 AM
I agree with you about the challenge, but lets use kobe for an example! When shaq left...Kobe tried to do it with an okay team, but then he threaten the front office by saying I am leaving and was thinking of going to chicago cause he thought he had a better chance of him winning a ring there?!?! So would this be in the same topic of him being a ring chaser?? Bulls fans would be extremly happy and lakers fans would be bitter and every other team cause he did'nt choose their team. Please dont come with that kobe use that he was leaving to scare the front office (which it did work:D)

Lakers homers are the worse...totally unreasonable.

Jaji
07-13-2010, 12:30 AM
So wade + bosh = non contenders? U serious???

Dude, Wade just barely avoided another 1st round sweep and Bosh wasn't even in the playoffs. They only have like 3 other players. Hell no they're not contenders without James! LeBron James was clearly the prize of the 2010 FA class and its not even debatable. Remember the whole one hour special on ESPN or did you forget that fast? I didn't see Wade or Bosh with a one hour special. LeBron is the Man. Period.

Swashcuff
07-13-2010, 12:31 AM
Massive:facepalm::punish

dude please just delete your account forever...

you act like he said miami's best player is haslem or something

sigh

Jaji
07-13-2010, 12:32 AM
Massive:facepalm::punish

LeBron is easily the Heat's best player. How can the best player in the world not be the best player on the team? No facepalm for you. You just get the :punish.

kntresistheheat
07-13-2010, 12:32 AM
By that logic everyone is chasing a championship then. The difference between Karl Malone and LeBron James is that the Lakers were contenders with or without Malone. LeBron is Miami's best player and the best player in the league. Any team he went to would have been an instant contender. He even made the shiddy Cavs contenders.

Ring chasing is "My career is over and I still haven't got a ring, let me sign with the champs."

Ron Artest should be accused of ring chasing a million times before LeBron.


I liked everything you said but this in bold

thekmp211
07-13-2010, 12:32 AM
Massive:facepalm::punish

it can be wades team while lebron is the best player.

cle12152433
07-13-2010, 12:33 AM
it can be wades team while lebron is the best player.

Thats how its gonna be too...

kntresistheheat
07-13-2010, 12:34 AM
it can be wades team while lebron is the best player.



I can live with that:p

Jaji
07-13-2010, 12:38 AM
True Heat fans, all 13 of them, Alonzo Mourning included, can say its Wade's team but the rest of the world will clearly see who the biggest star is.

HouRealCoach
07-13-2010, 12:39 AM
Their mad because he is finding the best way for himself to win a ring???

thekmp211
07-13-2010, 12:41 AM
True Heat fans, all 13 of them, Alonzo Mourning included, can say its Wade's team but the rest of the world will clearly see who the biggest star is.

its his team til lebron wins a finals mvp (or reg season but i somehow dont see that happening)

x23cbru24x
07-13-2010, 12:42 AM
ugh.. Lebron, lebron, lebron. I dare everybody on psd not to type the name lebron or miami for 2 days.

like like like

xxplayerxx23
07-13-2010, 12:48 AM
Hate lebron> A lot. I would take wade over lebron any day. Yeah he is a little older but he proved he can win a ring by himself. He is explosive. A little injury prone but still a great player. This is still wades team. Bosh and lebron followed him SO yeah itz still his team. Lebron cant win a title himself so he isnt the greastest in the world. Wade Is the better player I know im ganna hear a lot of **** for this but wade is better:p

tredigs
07-13-2010, 12:52 AM
Lebron, back in 2006, said how he didn't respect ring chasers and that he would never become one. He said he wanted to win a championship in Cleveland and finish off what he started.

Lebron became what he never wanted to become and at such a young age (as opposed to a Malone or Payton in their late 30s).

If Lebron doesn't respect ring chasers, why should the other players?

Two things here:

#1 - he tried to win the championship in Cleveland. But when your management can't close the deal on players that can actually help you win a ring, what can you do? They didn't have the means to sign a top tier free agent this year, so their chances to win a ship were still moderate at best. He went to the team where he could have a night or two off and still win a playoff series (like every other player in NBA history had. If Lebron went ghost like Kobe did in every 4th quarter of the NBA finals, do you think the Cavs' role players would step up and win it for them like the other Lakers did? Of course not - that's the difference in their teams).

#2 - A 34-40 year old Shaq going from elite team to elite team in search of championships could probably be considered "ring chasing" (especially if he joins the Heat this year), but arguably the best player in the god damn world joining forces with another top tier superstar (who can't get out of the first round without major help) is not comparable. He will be leading or co-leading that team to the Finals, he's not just some ancillary piece.

The bottom line is that Cleveland COULD NOT sign any of these guys, and even if they could it's not easy to sign a top tier player in his prime to a city like that. So they met up in Miami. Hate on it all you want, but the move is something that 9 out of 10 players would do. Think Kobe would resign with the Cavs (or even signed an extension like Lebron did) at that juncture of his career? HAH! Get real.

As much as I wanted to hate on Lebron for this move myself, it just makes sense that he'd rather play with one of his best friends in one of his favorite cities rather than going to Chi (under the "shadow" of MJ) to play alongside Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah (who I'm sure he doesn't like). As long as he comes to play and dominates the league like he always has - and they win a couple rings with him killing it in the playoffs - then there is no way to hate on the guy for his decision.

thekmp211
07-13-2010, 01:00 AM
Two things here:

#1 - he tried to win the championship in Cleveland. But when your management can't close the deal on players that can actually help you win a ring, what can you do? They didn't have the means to sign a top tier free agent this year, so their chances to win a ship were still moderate at best. He went to the team where he could have a night or two off and still win a playoff series (like every other player in NBA history had. If Lebron went ghost like Kobe did in every 4th quarter of the NBA finals, do you think the Cavs' role players would step up and win it for them like the other Lakers did? Of course not - that's the difference in their teams).

#2 - A 34-40 year old Shaq going from elite team to elite team in search of championships could probably be considered "ring chasing" (especially if he joins the Heat this year), but arguably the best player in the god damn world joining forces with another top tier superstar (who can't get out of the first round without major help) is not comparable. He will be leading or co-leading that team to the Finals, he's not just some ancillary piece.

The bottom line is that Cleveland COULD NOT sign any of these guys, and even if they could it's not easy to sign a top tier player in his prime to a city like that. So they met up in Miami. Hate on it all you want, but the move is something that 9 out of 10 players would do. Think Kobe would resign with the Cavs (or even signed an extension like Lebron did) at this juncture of his career? HAH! Get real.

As much as I wanted to hate on Lebron for this move myself, it just makes sense that he'd rather play with one of his best friends in one of his favorite cities rather than going to Chi (under the "shadow" of MJ) to play alongside Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah (who I'm sure he doesn't like). As long as he comes to play and dominates the league like he always has - and they win a couple rings with him killing it in the playoffs - then there is no way to hate on the guy for his decision.


every time a new lebron thread is started, a mod should copy and paste this post immediately afterwards. it could save everyone a lot of time.

Draco
07-13-2010, 01:08 AM
Two things here:

#1 - he tried to win the championship in Cleveland. But when your management can't close the deal on players that can actually help you win a ring, what can you do? They didn't have the means to sign a top tier free agent this year, so their chances to win a ship were still moderate at best. He went to the team where he could have a night or two off and still win a playoff series (like every other player in NBA history had. If Lebron went ghost like Kobe did in every 4th quarter of the NBA finals, do you think the Cavs' role players would step up and win it for them like the other Lakers did? Of course not - that's the difference in their teams).

#2 - A 34-40 year old Shaq going from elite team to elite team in search of championships could probably be considered "ring chasing" (especially if he joins the Heat this year), but arguably the best player in the god damn world joining forces with another top tier superstar (who can't get out of the first round without major help) is not comparable. He will be leading or co-leading that team to the Finals, he's not just some ancillary piece.

The bottom line is that Cleveland COULD NOT sign any of these guys, and even if they could it's not easy to sign a top tier player in his prime to a city like that. So they met up in Miami. Hate on it all you want, but the move is something that 9 out of 10 players would do. Think Kobe would resign with the Cavs (or even signed an extension like Lebron did) at that juncture of his career? HAH! Get real. From everything we've seen of the guy, it's safe to say he'd have been running out the door at the first possible opportunity.

As much as I wanted to hate on Lebron for this move myself, it just makes sense that he'd rather play with one of his best friends in one of his favorite cities rather than going to Chi (under the "shadow" of MJ) to play alongside Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah (who I'm sure he doesn't like). As long as he comes to play and dominates the league like he always has - and they win a couple rings with him killing it in the playoffs - then there is no way to hate on the guy for his decision.

And the players who have the greatest legacies are the ones who won after overcoming the biggest challenges. That's why I watch professional sports, not professional wrestling.

And I'm not a bandwagon fan. Lebron's now truelly in the perfect market for the kind of person he's shown himself to be. In the near future he'll be a 'winner' who'll never know what it takes to win. To me, it matters more how you won and not just that you won. Lebron will be the dude that won the power lotto, not a Warren Buffet.

xxcubs22xx
07-13-2010, 01:17 AM
Another "MJ's shadow" sighting?!

:facepalm:

cle12152433
07-13-2010, 01:17 AM
I dont know what worse....all the suspense leading up to "The Betrayal", or all this mess.

I hope when I come back from vacation things have cooled down.

Crap like this (debating nonsense over and over and over) takes away from the fun of the game.

I have a headache.

CALIABQLKRS
07-13-2010, 01:19 AM
Seriously everyone just needs to move on already... Its already happened, lebron, wade and bosh are all on the same team now... We all know if they wouldve stayed out and not switched teams, the next season wouldve played out just like it did this last year.. Cuz noones beating Kobe and my lakers... So Im glad that they switched teams and they can all team up and try to take down the Celtics, Magic and the Lakers.

Who cares if he is ring chasing? We all know why he did it.. We all know what Lebron is about, now get over it! You dont have to argue for 6 months about what happened... And all these "New" heat fans need to accept what happened too, and stop acting like idiots trying to defend why their "new" team got better... Just accept it and get ready for some good basketball ahead... Stop giving the REAL heat fans a bad name..

And also why is everyone acting like its a bad thing to have 3 star players on one team? Alot can happen, players get injured, players get jealous, some players dont perform well with this much pressure. I mean seriously these are 3 of the top 15 players in the league, and two are GREAT players but how many titles do they have? Just one! and they have been in the league for what 7 years? They still need players that have the passion around them. They need guys like a Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, all those bench players from the 08 Celtics, avery johnson, a Toni Kukoc and numerous other players that made the difference in the playoffs... It's those type of guys who are not afraid to play in the big games and not afraid to make a BIG SHOT when the star players are not on their game.. everyone thinks they are gnna win a ring every year, including Lebron (7) but nothing is guaranteed.. Stuff happens ;)

tredigs
07-13-2010, 01:30 AM
And the players who have the greatest legacies are the ones who won after overcoming the biggest challenges. That's why I watch professional sports, not professional wrestling.

And I'm not a bandwagon fan. Lebron's now truelly in the perfect market for the kind of person he's shown himself to be. In the near future he'll be a 'winner' who'll never know what it takes to win. To me, it matters more how you won and not just that you won. Lebron will be the dude that won the power lotto, not a Warren Buffet.

No, great organizations overcome adversity and find a way to fill the proper roles when they are blessed to have all time great players. They get the best coaches, and either groom the right role players or sign the right pieces.

I bet you would have been THRILLED and singing his praises had he gone to the Bulls, right? He would have been in at least as good a situation to win had he gone to them, so what's the difference?

It even took MJ to have one of the greatest wings in NBA history reach his complete prime (5th season) along with Horace Grants Prime (also 5th season with them) before he was able to reach the NBA finals - so don't spew that nonsense. Lebron took that Cavs team as far or farther than ANY other player in NBA history could have. The management failed and they were not going to get better, so he left - period.

Some of your guys' comments now that he isn't on your team are hilarious (along with some of the praise that the Heat fans are giving him; which we can safely doubt would be the case if he didn't go there...). Oh well, I'm sure he doesn't care.

Bluffmasta
07-13-2010, 01:41 AM
Bosh and wade together would only have been top 4 seed in the east adn thats if they orlando struggled, the only reason they are title favs is cuz of james, there is no ring chasing for james, he has made the heat into ring contenders for a VERY LONG TIME.


Totally agree with Jaji.

kozelkid
07-13-2010, 01:58 AM
Do you live on earth?!:confused:

Your telling me you've never done anything to make your life easier?

If you answer ANYWHERE near the affirmative your a ********g liar.

Want a challenge? Give away your money and move to the Congo and try to make a living. That's living against all odds...

Gimme a break, are you SERIOUSLY trying knock LeBron for trying to win and making his life easier? Seriously... get outta here with this ridiculous crap...

I really feel bad for you. I really do.
Must suck for you that you think like that.
I love your tough guy routine though. You go yell at those PSD posters. Respect on an internet forum, how cool is that!

Regardless, the Congo example was fairly stupid.
What's an actual comparison, is for instance challenging yourself educationally. Like taking a tougher course or going to a tough school.

And if Lebron really wants the easy way out, he should go the D-league or Europe, he can win championships there to his hearts contact.

:facepalm:

kozelkid
07-13-2010, 02:00 AM
I agree with you about the challenge, but lets use kobe for an example! When shaq left...Kobe tried to do it with an okay team, but then he threaten the front office by saying I am leaving and was thinking of going to chicago cause he thought he had a better chance of him winning a ring there?!?! So would this be in the same topic of him being a ring chaser?? Bulls fans would be extremly happy and lakers fans would be bitter and every other team cause he did'nt choose their team. Please dont come with that kobe use that he was leaving to scare the front office (which it did work:D)

Except Kobe still wanted to LEAD the team, that's the difference. That's why, btw, the LA duo didn't work out in the end. Lebron is going to one of the few teams where he wouldn't be a leader. I would have respected him as a player if he went to any of those other teams cause he'd still be that leader.
Obviously I can't respect him as a person either way since he shitted on Cleveland, but that's another story.

kozelkid
07-13-2010, 02:04 AM
LeBron is easily the Heat's best player. How can the best player in the world not be the best player on the team? No facepalm for you. You just get the :punish.

Lebron may be the best player, but I'll be shocked if Wade doesn't get the ball when the game is on the line.
That's the point people are making. And that's what will be the difference between the 2 when looked at 10-20 years from now. Then again, I could be completely wrong and Lebron may become that leader. We'll see. I have a hard time believing that though, especially when Lebron specifically said he's going to Wade's team or something of that nature IIRC.
Regardless, we'll see.

kozelkid
07-13-2010, 02:05 AM
And the players who have the greatest legacies are the ones who won after overcoming the biggest challenges. That's why I watch professional sports, not professional wrestling.

And I'm not a bandwagon fan. Lebron's now truelly in the perfect market for the kind of person he's shown himself to be. In the near future he'll be a 'winner' who'll never know what it takes to win. To me, it matters more how you won and not just that you won. Lebron will be the dude that won the power lotto, not a Warren Buffet.

Exactly.

Moss18
07-13-2010, 02:08 AM
I think outside of Miami no one respects these three. Wade use to be my favorite player but that ended. I think the players in the NBA dont respect these three. I think it is unwritten code that top stars take the max contracts and win and get paid to win. I think these three totally flipped the script on every superstar. I think Kobe wants to win but he wants a max contract if Kobe took a million and 11 more guys took a million we would have an all star team on one team. Thats what I think players dont respect about James. I lost respect for Wade cause I thought he was the player that would say "dont sign LBJ this is my team he won two NBA MVPs and I want to show him I am a better player and win titles" instead he told Riley to remove cap room and if he did these players would sign. These three took the easiest path to winning I think alot of people will never respect them. We will never know whose a better ball player LBJ, Wade, or Bosh. I think all three of them lack compeitiveness they want to field a team of superstars and then act like they accomplished something. I dont care how many titles they win this team will always be called a cheater and the gayest team in the league. Three superstars who have no compeition amoung them and sign with the same team. The greats would never do this and these three will never be considered great.

kozelkid
07-13-2010, 02:10 AM
No, great organizations overcome adversity and find a way to fill the proper roles when they are blessed to have all time great players. They get the best coaches, and either groom the right role players or sign the right pieces.

I bet you would have been THRILLED and singing his praises had he gone to the Bulls, right? He would have been in at least as good a situation to win had he gone to them, so what's the difference?

It even took MJ to have one of the greatest wings in NBA history reach his complete prime (5th season) along with Horace Grants Prime (also 5th season with them) before he was able to reach the NBA finals - so don't spew that nonsense. Lebron took that Cavs team as far or farther than ANY other player in NBA history could have. The management failed and they were not going to get better, so he left - period.

Some of your guys' comments now that he isn't on your team are hilarious (along with some of the praise that the Heat fans are giving him; which we can safely doubt would be the case if he didn't go there...). Oh well, I'm sure he doesn't care.

Of course. And I'd respect him as a player if he went to Cleveland, NJ, NY or LAC. Cause in all cases, he'd still be the number one guy. We don't know that in Miami. Once again, I personally respect a guy who can lead his team and still have a tough time. What it looks like to me, is that he shrank from the pressure of being the guy come crunch time. That's how I along with many others see it. Nothing wrong with being part of a great supporting cast, as long as you carry the team come crunch time. He won't be doing that in Miami. And that's the difference.
Of course as a person he has always been a narcissistic prat and I'd hate him regardless of where he went. Even Chicago. Just like I never liked Rodman even when he came to Chicago. Of course they are two different kinds of people, but regardless. I hate him even now though for ******** on Cleveland. So there was definitely a part of me that was hoping he'd stay. Granted I still hoped he'd go to Chicago, I won't lie, but well hopefully you get my point.

Draco
07-13-2010, 02:19 AM
No, great organizations overcome adversity and find a way to fill the proper roles when they are blessed to have all time great players. They get the best coaches, and either groom the right role players or sign the right pieces.

In a larger sense you're partially right but you're sidestepping the issue. The actual game is played on the court not in the front office. No one is going to penalize a player for what management has built around him as heavily as a player who decided the easiest way to win was to jump ship and join forces with 2 other top 10 players... oh, and that's not even getting into making recruitment a charade, and the probable incidence of tampering that I'm certain went on.



I bet you would have been THRILLED and singing his praises had he gone to the Bulls, right? He would have been in at least as good a situation to win had he gone to them, so what's the difference?

No, Lebron wouldn't have been in as good a situation had he gone to the Bulls. Had Miami not taken the top 3 free agents off the market then you're probably looking at two of those 3 free agents teaming up elsewhere; possibly NY, possibly Miami.

As far as legacies go, Lebron's best choice would have been to stay with the Cavs. His worst choice is the one he made... somewhere in the middle is the Bulls. Again, overcoming the biggest challenges cements the greatest legacy.



It even took MJ to have one of the greatest wings in NBA history reach his complete prime (5th season) along with Horace Grants Prime (also 5th season with them) before he was able to reach the NBA finals - so don't spew that nonsense. Lebron took that Cavs team as far or farther than ANY other player in NBA history could have. The management failed and they were not going to get better, so he left - period.

I never saw MJ quit on the Bulls when he was 25 years old and lost to the Pistons like Lebron quit on the Cavs this past summer. And if Pippen was once a top 10 player, Horace Grant certainly was not. If you're comparing last seasons Cavs to Jordan's Bulls with both players at age 25; you're comparing 61 wins with 47 wins. The Cavs weren't that far from a championship and Lebron was still young enough for the situation to improve. The Lakers, for example, were able to turn their franchise around after stealing Pau. Regardless.. the greastest legacies belong to those players that dealt with adversity not to those players that ran away from it.. oh, and - period. Or, boom roasted.. whatever dumb *** remark you prefer.



Some of your guys' comments now that he isn't on your team is hilarious (along with some of the praise that the Heat fans are giving him; which I know would not be the case if he didn't come there...). Oh well, I'm sure he doesn't care.

yeah whatever, chris cocker.

tredigs
07-13-2010, 03:21 AM
In a larger sense you're partially right but you're sidestepping the issue. The actual game is played on the court not in the front office. No one is going to penalize a player for what management has built around him as heavily as a player who decided the easiest way to win was to join forces with 2 other top 10 players... oh, and that's not even getting into making recruitment a charade, and the probable incidence of tampering that I'm certain went on.



Haha, oh really dude? You're not that blind - Look at all the hate this guy gets for having not won a ring already. Once the dust from this all settles and the games start to be played, IF they can win and he is their best player, then his legacy would be cemented. Honestly, it could actually work in his favor. Imagine if he goes in there and it becomes obvious who the true leader/best player on the team is while they win rings and he is crowned with a couple finals MVP's in the process. The city would undoubtedly adopt him as their own and treat them the way they do Wade. Doing that in the house of another legit superstar in his prime (who some think is as good or better than him)? ...Getting ahead of ourselves with that scenario - but it's definitely plausible and would be pretty ****ing impressive if it panned out like that.




No, Lebron wouldn't have been in as good a situation had he gone to the Bulls. Had Miami not taken the top 3 free agents off the market then you're probably looking at two of those 3 free agents teaming up elsewhere; possibly NY, possibly Miami.

As far as legacies go, Lebron's best choice would have been to stay with the Cavs. His worst choice is the one he made... somewhere in the middle is the Bulls. Again, overcoming the biggest challenges cements the greatest legacy.



As far as "legacies go" I think his best choice would have been to go the Nets, where he could have drawn Boozer to the team and had a legitimate chance of instantly leading a 12 win team to the NBA finals and possibly a title for a franchise that has never won one. After the Bulls would have been the second best choice - as he could have done the same thing there, but it would be for a more storied franchise. Then probably the Heat, followed by the Knicks (I still don't think they would have won) - and lastly the Cavs. He'd get praise for loyalty, but staying with the same worthless supporting cast while coming up short in the playoffs to these other teams who constantly make huge moves would ultimately be the worst possible choice for the guy. You (and most other people) don't see this yet, but there's not a doubt in my mind that it was right to leave somewhere/ANYwhere else.

[/QUOTE]




I never saw MJ quit on the Bulls when he was 25 years old and lost to the Pistons like Lebron quit on the Cavs this past summer. And if Pippen was once a top 10 player, Horace Grant certainly was not. If you're comparing last seasons Cavs to Jordan's Bulls with both players at age 25; you're comparing 61 wins with 47 wins. The Cavs weren't that far from a championship and Lebron was still young enough for the situation to improve. The Lakers, for example, were able to turn their franchise around after stealing Pau. Regardless.. the greastest legacies belong to those players that dealt with adversity not to those players that ran away from it.. oh, and - period. Or, boom roasted.. whatever dumb *** remark you prefer.

yeah whatever, chris cocker.

Are you trying to insinuate that MJ's Bulls cast was inferior to Lebron's Cavs because they won less regular season games? Don't do that to yourself, it might get ugly. Yes Lebron had years left, but their newly acquired #2 option is a 35 yr old PF who had never made it out of the first round before last season signed through 2012. Then they had a top 12-15 PG as their #3. Where exactly is this roster going, again?

They had no money to sign anyone, and Lebron wasn't blessed with coming into the team with a prime Shaq in order to help get his first 3 rings. Beyond that, Kobe was on a team where he had a rich owner that was willing to spend what it took to win, along with being a part of the most storied franchise in the NBA that attracts its biggest stars and having the games top coach. You sound like a homer Laker fan comparing the two situations.

Anyway, I'm bored with trying to pound logic into your guys' heads -- we can revisit this in 5 years and you can tell me whether or not this was the right decision.

Draco
07-13-2010, 04:17 AM
Haha, oh really dude? You're not that blind - Look at all the hate this guy gets for having not won a ring already.

Kobephiles don't count.



Once the dust from this all settles and the games start to be played, IF they can win and he is their best player, then his legacy would be cemented. Honestly, it could actually work in his favor. Imagine if he goes in there and it becomes obvious who the true leader/best player on the team is while they win rings and he is crowned with a couple finals MVP's in the process. The city would undoubtedly adopt him as their own and treat them the way they do Wade. Doing that in the house of another legit superstar in his prime (who some think is as good or better than him)? ...Getting ahead of ourselves with that scenario - but it's definitely plausible and would be pretty ****ing impressive if it panned out like that.

Hmm.. I've never watched a team sport for the purpose of seeing teamates compete against each other. Those are pretty hollow challenges.



As far as "legacies go" I think his best choice would have been to go the Nets, where he could have drawn Boozer to the team and had a legitimate chance of instantly leading a 12 win team to the NBA finals and possibly a title for a franchise that has never won one. After the Bulls would have been the second best choice - as he could have done the same thing there, but it would be for a more storied franchise. Then probably the Heat, followed by the Knicks (I still don't think they would have won) - and lastly the Cavs. He'd get praise for loyalty, but staying with the same worthless supporting cast while coming up short in the playoffs to these other teams who constantly make huge moves would ultimately be the worst possible choice for the guy. You (and most other people) don't see this yet, but there's not a doubt in my mind that it was right to leave somewhere/ANYwhere else.

Lebron's legacy isn't that important to me to continue discussing it. We disagree on how his legacy is affected and that's fine.



Are you trying to insinuate that MJ's Bulls cast was inferior to Lebron's Cavs because they won less regular season games? Don't do that to yourself, it might get ugly. Yes Lebron had years left, but their newly acquired #2 option is a 35 yr old PF who had never made it out of the first round before last season signed through 2012. Then they had a top 12-15 PG as their #3. Where exactly is this roster going, again?

I'm insinuating that Lebron had less reason to quit on the Cavs than MJ would have had to quit on the Bulls back in 1988. Because I also stated that the Cavs weren't that far from a championship. They've had the best record for two straight seasons. We'll never know if the Cavs could have gotten over the hump but there's no good reason to think it couldn't have happened... except perhaps that Lebron might have had too much influence with decisions made by the front office and if that's the case that problem is partially on Lebron.. and perhaps that Lebron just can't handle the pressure.



They had no money to sign anyone, and Lebron wasn't blessed with coming into the team with a prime Shaq in order to help get his first 3 rings. Beyond that, Kobe was on a team where he had a rich owner that was willing to spend what it took to win, along with being a part of the most storied franchise in the NBA that attracts its biggest stars and having the games top coach. You sound like a homer Laker fan comparing the two situations.

Anyway, I'm bored with trying to pound logic into your guys' heads -- we can revisit this in 5 years and you can tell me whether or not this was the right decision.

The Laker's didn't win and weren't going to win until they got Pau. The point I made and the reason for the comparison is that Lebron is only 25 years old and management could have had a lot of time to tweak or overhaul the roster.

What's going to change in 5 years besides the number of rings Lebron wins? I've already stated that I think how you win matters more than just simply winning.

PHX2daDEATH
07-13-2010, 04:32 AM
If we learned one thing.. its how Scottie Pippen would of played on a team without Jordan..Big Numbers, Good teams, No Titles. I think back on Pippen, i actually think he would of been a top 3 player in the league without Jordan. Made his team better but never win a title on his own. Maybe LeBron knows realizes this

J-Relo
07-13-2010, 04:56 AM
Lebron, back in 2006, said how he didn't respect ring chasers and that he would never become one. He said he wanted to win a championship in Cleveland and finish off what he started.

Lebron became what he never wanted to become and at such a young age (as opposed to a Malone or Payton in their late 30s).

If Lebron doesn't respect ring chasers, why should the other players?

yea right :eyebrow:

people's mind doesn't change... :facepalm: even after 4 years of trying to get the team going and winning playoffs that didn't turn out...

tredigs
07-13-2010, 05:02 AM
^Fair enough Draco, we disagree. I see nothing in the Cavs organization or the city of Cleveland that allows me to compare it to the Kobe situation (which if you remember, he was going to leave until they pulled in Pau. Also, Lamar + Bynum are players that Cleveland would die for. Add to that the bonus of being able to live in LA, already having 3 championships under your belt and having the worlds top coach and I'm not sure anyone objectively could).


If we learned one thing.. its how Scottie Pippen would of played on a team without Jordan..Big Numbers, Good teams, No Titles. I think back on Pippen, i actually think he would of been a top 3 player in the league without Jordan. Made his team better but never win a title on his own. Maybe LeBron knows realizes this

And Jordan could not have won without his Pippen (+ Grant/Rodman, Kukoc, etc). I'm sure Lebron realizes this as well.

Like I said earlier, even with Pippen + Grant, it took the Bulls and Jordan 5 years of their development (7 for MJ) along with other key role players to get them to a level where they were the top in the league. Those pieces are not in place in Cleveland, and Lebron knew this. Loyalty is all well and great/admirable, but only a sucker would stay in Cleveland with such incompetent ownership when he could leave for a team that he will help lead to multiple titles. Hate the Miami choice all you want, but trying to make definitive comments about his legacy before its all played out is just an exercise in futility. Nobody can know what will happen.

OA SLAY
07-13-2010, 05:20 AM
Everyone knows Cleveland was Big Z's team from the start. LBJ was just some guy they drafted to help Z out... After all the fame went to LBJs head, he ran Z outta town! But the Lithuanian phenom was not about to sit back and let a sidekick run his storied fanchise into the ground. So he demanded a return and heroically chased his sidekick to south beach for good!

OA SLAY
07-13-2010, 05:22 AM
Only the greats try to win it for the team they started with. Like BIG Z, good luck big fella!

jbterrelle
07-13-2010, 05:48 AM
Seriously everyone just needs to move on already... Its already happened, lebron, wade and bosh are all on the same team now... We all know if they wouldve stayed out and not switched teams, the next season wouldve played out just like it did this last year.. Cuz noones beating Kobe and my lakers... So Im glad that they switched teams and they can all team up and try to take down the Celtics, Magic and the Lakers.

Who cares if he is ring chasing? We all know why he did it.. We all know what Lebron is about, now get over it! You dont have to argue for 6 months about what happened... And all these "New" heat fans need to accept what happened too, and stop acting like idiots trying to defend why their "new" team got better... Just accept it and get ready for some good basketball ahead... Stop giving the REAL heat fans a bad name..

And also why is everyone acting like its a bad thing to have 3 star players on one team? Alot can happen, players get injured, players get jealous, some players dont perform well with this much pressure. I mean seriously these are 3 of the top 15 players in the league, and two are GREAT players but how many titles do they have? Just one! and they have been in the league for what 7 years? They still need players that have the passion around them. They need guys like a Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, all those bench players from the 08 Celtics, avery johnson, a Toni Kukoc and numerous other players that made the difference in the playoffs... It's those type of guys who are not afraid to play in the big games and not afraid to make a BIG SHOT when the star players are not on their game.. everyone thinks they are gnna win a ring every year, including Lebron (7) but nothing is guaranteed.. Stuff happens ;)

Post of the month here. Congrats!! :clap::clap:

Ppl please move on, all the ranting and posting in the world isn't gonna change a thing...

The Raven
07-13-2010, 06:40 AM
How can anyone respect a man who did what he did. Basically screwed over al of Cleveland in the process while being a hipocrit and doing what he said he'd never do

Jaji
07-13-2010, 08:29 AM
Hate lebron> A lot. I would take wade over lebron any day. Yeah he is a little older but he proved he can win a ring by himself. He is explosive. A little injury prone but still a great player. This is still wades team. Bosh and lebron followed him SO yeah itz still his team. Lebron cant win a title himself so he isnt the greastest in the world. Wade Is the better player I know im ganna hear a lot of **** for this but wade is better:p

:facepalm: for everything in bold.

Ray_R
07-13-2010, 08:47 AM
UGH.. LeBron, LeBron, LeBron. I dare everybody on PSD not to type the name LeBron or Miami for 2 days.

WHat about D Wade.

DCB/LAL
07-13-2010, 10:29 AM
Two things here:

#1 - he tried to win the championship in Cleveland. But when your management can't close the deal on players that can actually help you win a ring, what can you do? They didn't have the means to sign a top tier free agent this year, so their chances to win a ship were still moderate at best. He went to the team where he could have a night or two off and still win a playoff series (like every other player in NBA history had. If Lebron went ghost like Kobe did in every 4th quarter of the NBA finals, do you think the Cavs' role players would step up and win it for them like the other Lakers did? Of course not - that's the difference in their teams).

#2 - A 34-40 year old Shaq going from elite team to elite team in search of championships could probably be considered "ring chasing" (especially if he joins the Heat this year), but arguably the best player in the god damn world joining forces with another top tier superstar (who can't get out of the first round without major help) is not comparable. He will be leading or co-leading that team to the Finals, he's not just some ancillary piece.

The bottom line is that Cleveland COULD NOT sign any of these guys, and even if they could it's not easy to sign a top tier player in his prime to a city like that. So they met up in Miami. Hate on it all you want, but the move is something that 9 out of 10 players would do. Think Kobe would resign with the Cavs (or even signed an extension like Lebron did) at that juncture of his career? HAH! Get real.

As much as I wanted to hate on Lebron for this move myself, it just makes sense that he'd rather play with one of his best friends in one of his favorite cities rather than going to Chi (under the "shadow" of MJ) to play alongside Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah (who I'm sure he doesn't like). As long as he comes to play and dominates the league like he always has - and they win a couple rings with him killing it in the playoffs - then there is no way to hate on the guy for his decision.




What?? Didn't have the players or couldn't get the players around him to win? If I remember correctly everyone seemed to pick the Cavs as the favorite to win the title.....the Cavs had the best record in the NBA twice in a row, if their is anybody to blame for not winning look no further than LEBRON JAMES himself for not leading them there.


And dont bring that "they couldn't get the players around him" BS because you were one of the posters who had them as the best team, as the favorites and winning it all.

Swashcuff
07-13-2010, 11:01 AM
:facepalm: for everything in bold.

x2 :facepalm::facepalm:

Bring The Heat
07-13-2010, 11:17 AM
:facepalm: for everything in bold.

facepalm yourself for saying its embarassing Wade couldn't get out of the first round.... Its amazing that he even gets his team to the playoffs period with the supporting cast he has... That in itself shows how GREAT he is...

I didnt know averaging 33 points a game against the celtics constantly being double teamed the whole series is embarassing and shooting over 56% from the field.... And dropping 46 points in Game 5 against this tough defense to avoid getting swept...

You keep talking about how Wade hasnt gotten out of the first round since 2006... Obviously u havent watched the heat since... Season after the team fell apart Wade injured his shoulder and wasnt healthy... the following year was the 15 win season where we had d-leaguers in our starting line-up... Wade hasn't any help since.. Of course hes going to get bounced out of the first round idiot especially facing teams like the hawks and celtics which are just better all around teams from top to bottom

rapjuicer06
07-13-2010, 11:51 AM
my two cents...don't really matter but why not. you can't fault james, wade and bosh to join together. realistically its wade and james coming together and bosh is on for the ride. bosh is the one with probably the biggest ego and he is the one going to be affected by this the most. all i kno is wade and bron are going to go off every night and bosh isn't going to do ****. his numbers are going to drop off tremendously. and bron and wade are going to have a hell of a time not running into each other. they both slash like crazy and they can't really shoot from the outside still which is what KILLED lebron in cleveland. IMO bron and dwade are tooooo much alike and that team is going to implode. bron with carmelo or wade with carmelo would be 10000000000000 times better than wade and bron. IMO this team is still not a tital contending team. they can not beat the lakers still. who's their center?? who's their point guard? no one in their right mind can guard kobe and its guna have to be dwade or lebron...so whoever guards kobe can expect to not play so great on offense. pau will kill bosh as well...and they have no one to guard odom either....soooooo good luck miami i give it two years before you can't handle your *****es

tredigs
07-13-2010, 12:35 PM
What?? Didn't have the players or couldn't get the players around him to win? If I remember correctly everyone seemed to pick the Cavs as the favorite to win the title.....the Cavs had the best record in the NBA twice in a row, if their is anybody to blame for not winning look no further than LEBRON JAMES himself for not leading them there.


And dont bring that "they couldn't get the players around him" BS because you were one of the posters who had them as the best team, as the favorites and winning it all.

I, like most people, completely overestimated his role players when it came to the playoffs. Winning in the regular season has nothing to do with winning in the playoffs - when a team can game plan for you for 4+ straight games, everyone has to show up to win, period.

If you want to take the time for an objective exercise in understanding this (which I know you don't), then compare the stats of the role players for every team that made the conference finals this year side by side with the stats of the Cavs role players. As much attention as Lebron draws and even though he's the most willing passer of all the superstars, they still couldn't make it happen.

The Cavs lost to the Celtics - the same team that shut Kobe (supposedly the "MOST CLUTCH!1" player in the league) down in the 4th quarter every single game of the finals. His teammates stepped up, Lebron's didn't/couldn't.

Play the role of blind homer all you want, but two or three "poor" games by Lebron over the past 2 seasons' playoffs doesn't justify his teammates not being able to bail him out. Bad games/quarters happen for leading players, but great teams step up their game when it does.

xxplayerxx23
07-13-2010, 01:36 PM
x2 :facepalm::facepalm:

Whatever both of you say. All i know is that wade has won a ring with less talent then lebron has had. wade doesnt choke in the playoffs . Lebron cant win a ring without going to miami. Wade carries his team into the playoffs and in the playoffs. He has no supporting cast before this year. WAde knows how to win. he isnt like lebron Going into game 5 series tied 2-2 and scores 15 points and shoots 2 for 14. Or go into the magic series and shoot 38 percent. Wade knows how to win unlike lebron. WHy is lebron a better player explain yourself.

xxplayerxx23
07-13-2010, 01:41 PM
I, like most people, completely overestimated his role players when it came to the playoffs. Winning in the regular season has nothing to do with winning in the playoffs - when a team can game plan for you for 4+ straight games, everyone has to show up to win, period.

If you want to take the time for an objective exercise in understanding this (which I know you don't), then compare the stats of the role players for every team that made the conference finals this year side by side with the stats of the Cavs role players. As much attention as Lebron draws and even though he's the most willing passer of all the superstars, they still couldn't make it happen.

The Cavs lost to the Celtics - the same team that shut Kobe (supposedly the "MOST CLUTCH!1" player in the league) down in the 4th quarter every single game of the finals. His teammates stepped up, Lebron's didn't/couldn't.



Play the role of blind homer all you want, but two or three "poor" games by Lebron over the past 2 seasons' playoffs doesn't justify his teammates not being able to bail him out. Bad games/quarters happen for leading players, but great teams step up their game when it does.




Are you kidding. Lebron had talent around him. The fourth quarter is where u can win the games. KObe DOMINATED IN THE SERIES. DOnt compare lebron and kobe, Kobe has 5 rins lebron has none. If itz two minutes left in the game who do u give the ball? LEBron or KObe? and I hate kobe bryant so much. But kobe IS the most clutch player in the NBA

Swashcuff
07-13-2010, 01:41 PM
Idiot Wade had SHaq when he was still good. He had a LEGIT #2. Who was the LEGIT #2that LeBron had. Your wasting out time. You are seriously asking why LeBron James is better than Dwayne Wade. I mean are you joking?

xxplayerxx23
07-13-2010, 01:51 PM
Idiot Wade had SHaq when he was still good. He had a LEGIT #2. Who was the LEGIT #2that LeBron had. Your wasting out time. You are seriously asking why LeBron James is better than Dwayne Wade. I mean are you joking?

Shaq wasnt that good. Wade did it by himself. Took over. Wade and lebron play the same type of game. LEbron had a good supporing cast. Moe willams then he had antwan jamison and shaq this year with willams parker bIG Z he had enough talent to win it. He had more talent then wade did the year he won it. Wade TOok on dallas by himself and won . Lebron had plenty of talent. How many rings does lebron have?

Jaji
07-13-2010, 01:56 PM
Lebron may be the best player, but I'll be shocked if Wade doesn't get the ball when the game is on the line.
That's the point people are making. And that's what will be the difference between the 2 when looked at 10-20 years from now. Then again, I could be completely wrong and Lebron may become that leader. We'll see. I have a hard time believing that though, especially when Lebron specifically said he's going to Wade's team or something of that nature IIRC.
Regardless, we'll see.

Ron Artest just hit the series winner for LA. Is it his team now? John Paxson hit a Finals winner for the Bulls. MJ who? Robert Horry must be the GOAT because he hit more big shots than anyone I can remember.

The fact is, teams won't be able to deny both LeBron and Wade on the inbound pass for the last shot. Whoever gets the ball will do what they do best, and that's create. Either for themselves or an open teammate. LeBron has proved he's an unselfish player. I don't think he'd hesitate for a second if he found Wade open for the last shot. That's why they're gonna do so well. They're both unselfish and they're friends. And they both want to win, no matter who takes the last shot or whose "team" it is. One thing's for certain, LeBron will average more points, more rebounds, and more assists. It is on that I'm basing my claim that it's his team. It's the best player's team and LeBron is the better player.

Swashcuff
07-13-2010, 01:58 PM
Shaq wasnt that good. Wade did it by himself. Took over. Wade and lebron play the same type of game. LEbron had a good supporing cast. Moe willams then he had antwan jamison and shaq this year with willams parker bIG Z he had enough talent to win it. He had more talent then wade did the year he won it. Wade TOok on dallas by himself and won . Lebron had plenty of talent. How many rings does lebron have?

Dude WTF????

You are the biggest waste of time i've seen in quite some time. Be gone.

You obviously know NOTHING about basketball and just came here to hate.

Be GONE TROLL!!!

xxplayerxx23
07-13-2010, 01:58 PM
[/B]
Ron Artest just hit the series winner for LA. Is it his team now? John Paxson hit a Finals winner for the Bulls. MJ who? Robert Horry must be the GOAT because he hit more big shots than anyone I can remember.

The fact is, teams won't be able to deny both LeBron and Wade on the inbound pass for the last shot. Whoever gets the ball will do what they do best, and that's create. Either for themselves or an open teammate. LeBron has proved he's an unselfish player. I don't think he'd hesitate for a second if he found Wade open for the last shot. That's why they're gonna do so well. They're both unselfish and they're friends. And they both want to win, no matter who takes the last shot or whose "team" it is. One thing's for certain, LeBron will average more points, more rebounds, and more assists. It is on that I'm basing my claim that it's his team. It's the best player's team and LeBron is the better player.

You forgot Lebron has the biggest ego in the NBa and wades ego with BOSH ego will prevent them from winning the finals this year

thekmp211
07-13-2010, 01:59 PM
Shaq wasnt that good. Wade did it by himself. Took over. Wade and lebron play the same type of game. LEbron had a good supporing cast. Moe willams then he had antwan jamison and shaq this year with willams parker bIG Z he had enough talent to win it. He had more talent then wade did the year he won it. Wade TOok on dallas by himself and won . Lebron had plenty of talent. How many rings does lebron have?

shaq on the heat is a better asset than mo and tawn and old shaq and z.

he was the best center in the league that year, silly.

i already posted on this thread but the names you mention are mince meat compared to a real supporting cast and/or a second star player.

he didnt have a prayer in cleveland.

as for the bold, no one just takes on entire teams. if thats how you think it works i encourage you to invest in some rudimentary films or literature on the sport.

xxplayerxx23
07-13-2010, 01:59 PM
Dude WTF????

You are the biggest waste of time i've seen in quite some time. Be gone.

You obviously know NOTHING about basketball and just came here to hate.

Be GONE TROLL!!!

Ok just remember wade has a ring and your boy Lebron doesnt. Remember Lebron will never be MJ

Swashcuff
07-13-2010, 02:01 PM
Ok just remember wade has a ring and your boy Lebron doesnt. Remember Lebron will never be MJ

My boy LeBron??? Sigh (idiot)

No one will never be MJ. NO ONE!!

You are a total and complete waste of time.

xxplayerxx23
07-13-2010, 02:02 PM
shaq on the heat is a better asset than mo and tawn and old shaq and z.

he was the best center in the league that year, silly.

i already posted on this thread but the names you mention are mince meat compared to a real supporting cast and/or a second star player.

he didnt have a prayer in cleveland.

as for the bold, no one just takes on entire teams. if thats how you think it works i encourage you to invest in some rudimentary films or literature on the sport.

If you Put Mj or dwayne wade on clevland They win the finals. Lebron is not as good as them in the playoffs. But did you watch wade in the series.

xxplayerxx23
07-13-2010, 02:03 PM
[QUOTE=Swashcuff;14116937]My boy LeBron??? Sigh (idiot)

No one will never be MJ. NO ONE!!

You are a total and complete waste of time.[/QUOTE


If kobe wins one or two more finals he will be close to mj

kozelkid
07-13-2010, 02:03 PM
Ron Artest just hit the series winner for LA. Is it his team now? John Paxson hit a Finals winner for the Bulls. MJ who? Robert Horry must be the GOAT because he hit more big shots than anyone I can remember.

Hitting a game winning shot and taking over are completely different things. Point is, I expect Wade demanding the ball come crunch time.


The fact is, teams won't be able to deny both LeBron and Wade on the inbound pass for the last shot. Whoever gets the ball will do what they do best, and that's create. Either for themselves or an open teammate. LeBron has proved he's an unselfish player. I don't think he'd hesitate for a second if he found Wade open for the last shot. That's why they're gonna do so well. They're both unselfish and they're friends. And they both want to win, no matter who takes the last shot or whose "team" it is. One thing's for certain, LeBron will average more points, more rebounds, and more assists. It is on that I'm basing my claim that it's his team. It's the best player's team and LeBron is the better player.

I think you are very naive if you actually think two number one options can "share" the responsibility of being go-to guys come clutch. When the game gets interesting, you have one player who controls the ball the during that time. Whether it was MJ for the Bulls, Kobe for LA, Magic for LA, Wade for Miami and Lebron for Cleveland. None of them except for Magic are pgs, but they all still held the ball when the pressure was up. Because that's what go-to scorers do. It may work for Miami in the beginning. Maybe for a couple years even. But it will wear on them. Especially if one of them screws up in crunch time a few times which is inevitable for any player. It will get on them and one will start thinking how the hell did he **** that up. Like I said, it may take a couple years, but it will get on them.
Lebron may be the better player of the 2, but they are both go-to players and I don't think either will like the possibility of taking second fiddle as time wears on.
Maybe not in the beginning, but it will come. I'm willing to bet on that.

xxplayerxx23
07-13-2010, 02:05 PM
shaq on the heat is a better asset than mo and tawn and old shaq and z.

he was the best center in the league that year, silly.

i already posted on this thread but the names you mention are mince meat compared to a real supporting cast and/or a second star player.

he didnt have a prayer in cleveland.

as for the bold, no one just takes on entire teams. if thats how you think it works i encourage you to invest in some rudimentary films or literature on the sport.

Ok But who would you rather have on your team in a clutch moment in the playoffs wade or lebroN?

Swashcuff
07-13-2010, 02:11 PM
[QUOTE=Swashcuff;14116937]My boy LeBron??? Sigh (idiot)

No one will never be MJ. NO ONE!!

You are a total and complete waste of time.[/QUOTE


If kobe wins one or two more finals he will be close to mj

dude Kobe will never be MJ. Close yes but never be him. Anyone who isn't blind and understands the game knows that.

valade16
07-13-2010, 02:14 PM
If you Put Mj or dwayne wade on clevland They win the finals. Lebron is not as good as them in the playoffs. But did you watch wade in the series.

Yeah right, put MJ or Wade on Cleveland and they don't even make it there...

That supporting cast is terrible. Despite MJ's mystique you know Wade and MJ have played a combined 21 seasons and won 7 titles...

They weren't a lock to win it every year...

magichatnumber9
07-13-2010, 02:22 PM
I agree, a superstar chasing a ring just seems like a rat thing to do. I feel bad because how can he show true emotion if he does win a ring. It won't ever mean the same thing. He will never experience what Michael experience when he held the trophy with tears.

ldawg
07-13-2010, 02:22 PM
Lebrons team was not bad It was built to fit his skill set up tempo with three point shooters and great defense. He just could not close the deal. Wade did he took over the game when they needed him to. The Same when Shaq played with Kobe. Kobe closed the games.

Da Knicks
07-13-2010, 02:25 PM
Dwyane Wade. Chris Bosh. Don't hit me with technicalities. Lebron said he went to the Heat to join two (already established) star players.

Laker fans arguing about the nba and lebron? :cry::cry::cry: Try to be a fan of someone else who doesnt get help from the nba before you go off crying because someone else has a chance. Did you realize that with Kobe getting so much credit because of the rings his team has got him Lebron was forced to get better teamates and even how it stands Kobe has more help. :p

richiesaurus310
07-13-2010, 02:36 PM
Lol this has gotten out of control, I can't wait for the next Lebron sweepstakes 6 years from now.

Chronz
07-13-2010, 02:37 PM
Lebron, back in 2006, said how he didn't respect ring chasers and that he would never become one. He said he wanted to win a championship in Cleveland and finish off what he started.

Lebron became what he never wanted to become and at such a young age (as opposed to a Malone or Payton in their late 30s).

If Lebron doesn't respect ring chasers, why should the other players?
In correct context Bron isnt ring chasing by his definition. He is not joining an established team, hes joining up to match up talent for talent against the Lakers. There is just no way any other team could muster the overall talent level the Lakers possess without this kind of move. According to most its not a guarantee that he wins a title so those same people better not be saying hes getting a "free" ring. And of course he said that about Cleveland, it was his goal, why wouldnt it have been?

Chronz
07-13-2010, 02:38 PM
Dwyane Wade. Chris Bosh. Don't hit me with technicalities. Lebron said he went to the Heat to join two (already established) star players.
Those established players couldnt/wouldnt come to Cleveland. Sometimes there are external factors that prevent us from accomplishing our goals.


Are Heat fans really arguing that Lebron joining a team that got bumped out the first round makes it not ring chasing? He admittedly said he went to Miami to join two other superstars and win rings. :laugh:
Its only logical, and admitting to winning? Your really reaching now friend. Think of it this way, Bron is still going to be the teams best player and key cog in winning those multiple titles.


He got Shaq a guy who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp. Jamsion a career 20 and 8 player and 3x allstar. Mo a 17 and 6 guy, Big Z a 2x allstar and an allstar before Lebron ever played with the Cavs. In fact made the allstar team again in Lebron's 2nd season.
Thats abut the most shallow analysis Ive ever seen. Tell me how many All- League caliber players has he ever played alongside?

Mathew
07-13-2010, 02:46 PM
That's like saying do i get payed for bashing child molesters. I do it because it's the right thing to do.

your comparing James to a child molester? is it because he RAPED Cleveland, hahahhahaah.

xxplayerxx23
07-13-2010, 03:00 PM
Yeah right, put MJ or Wade on Cleveland and they don't even make it there...

That supporting cast is terrible. Despite MJ's mystique you know Wade and MJ have played a combined 21 seasons and won 7 titles...

They weren't a lock to win it every year...

Did not say they would win it every year. they would of been there more then lebron and would of won at least 1

xxplayerxx23
07-13-2010, 03:01 PM
[QUOTE=xxplayerxx23;14116975]

dude Kobe will never be MJ. Close yes but never be him. Anyone who isn't blind and understands the game knows that.

He will be closer then any one can posibly be. I think kobe could be mj. KObe is amazing

Da Knicks
07-13-2010, 03:12 PM
[QUOTE=Swashcuff;14117080]

He will be closer then any one can posibly be. I think kobe could be mj. KObe is amazing

words of a young fan....:( by the way cleveland would never win a championship if wade or jordan replaced lebron....

valade16
07-13-2010, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by ARMIN12NBA
Are Heat fans really arguing that Lebron joining a team that got bumped out the first round makes it not ring chasing? He admittedly said he went to Miami to join two other superstars and win rings.

So on your team you only want players that don't want rings?:rolleyes:

You are the kind of posters that make me feel sick, because if any or all of these guys had gone to your team you'd be where every Heat fan is right now.

Analytical thinking isn't your friend is he?

Swashcuff
07-13-2010, 03:19 PM
words of a young fan....:( by the way cleveland would never win a championship if wade or jordan replaced lebron....

yo edit your post i never said that

valade16
07-13-2010, 03:24 PM
Bottom line is this, those players that don't have any respect for LeBron because he wants to win rings, those are the guys I wouldn't want playing for my team. You'd throw a hissy fit because a player wants a ring?

SHOULDN'T YOU WANT THAT TOO?

FYI, I guess we can cross off Fisher, Big Z, Haslem, Howard, Mike Miller and any other player that follows them from having no respect for him can't we?

Swashcuff
07-13-2010, 03:26 PM
Bottom line is this, those players that don't have any respect for LeBron because he wants to win rings, those are the guys I wouldn't want playing for my team. You'd throw a hissy fit because a player wants a ring?

SHOULDN'T YOU WANT THAT TOO?

FYI, I guess we can cross off Fisher, Big Z, Haslem, Howard, Mike Miller and any other player that follows them from having no respect for him can't we?

Fisher is remaining a Laker

valade16
07-13-2010, 03:33 PM
Fisher is remaining a Laker

I know, but the fact that he entertained an offer from the Heat tells me he most likely doesn't think LeBron did anything wrong...;)

Swashcuff
07-13-2010, 03:34 PM
I know, but the fact that he entertained an offer from the Heat tells me he most likely doesn't think LeBron did anything wrong...;)

i hear your point

CowboysKB24
07-13-2010, 03:45 PM
How is LeBron ring chasing when the only reason Miami is a contender is because they have LeBron?

Come on man. He is clear chasing a title by joining those guys. It is the same thing Malone and Payton did, they tried to hop on the boat and win with the Lakers. And the Heat would definitely be contenders with Bosh and Wade, are you kidding me? They would add some great pieces and they would contend for sure. That is a complete joke. Wade is the best player in the league. Bosh is the best PF in the league.

Draco
07-13-2010, 03:49 PM
In correct context Bron isnt ring chasing by his definition. He is not joining an established team, hes joining up to match up talent for talent against the Lakers. There is just no way any other team could muster the overall talent level the Lakers possess without this kind of move. According to most its not a guarantee that he wins a title so those same people better not be saying hes getting a "free" ring. And of course he said that about Cleveland, it was his goal, why wouldnt it have been?

According to most it's not a guarantee that Lebron wins a title this year.. from what I've read and heard, most people do think it's almost certain Lebron finishes his career with multiple titles. People have a whole lot more confidence in thinking Lebron wins multiple rings with the Heat having Bosh and Wade on the roster than they have in thinking Lebron could do the same in Cleveland. By any definition, that's ring chasing.

kozelkid
07-13-2010, 04:04 PM
So on your team you only want players that don't want rings?:rolleyes:

You are the kind of posters that make me feel sick, because if any or all of these guys had gone to your team you'd be where every Heat fan is right now.

Analytical thinking isn't your friend is he?

Will you quit it with the whole tough guy routine already. It's a forum, no one is intimidated by you and it's sad that you really think of yourself that way.

Armin's point stands. There's more than simply winning a ring. There's something called being a competitor. I'm sorry if you don't understand what that means.

And that's what will ultimately be the difference between Kobe, MJ, Bird, Magic, etc vs Lebron. Even if Lebron may be the most talented of the bunch.

Chronz
07-13-2010, 04:10 PM
According to most it's not a guarantee that Lebron wins a title this year.. from what I've read and heard, most people do think it's almost certain Lebron finishes his career with multiple titles. People have a whole lot more confidence in thinking Lebron wins multiple rings with the Heat having Bosh and Wade on the roster than they have in thinking Lebron could do the same in Cleveland. By any definition, that's ring chasing.
Thats why it fits exactly into the context that building a winner (if not in Cleveland) is joining a brand new team and making it a winner, basically ESTABLISHING Dominance. Not joining a team that had just recently competed for a title on its own ground.

Of course hes going to win multiple titles, well atleast we agree on that, I just dont see how it makes it ring chasing if hes the one whos responsible for it all. This is what it takes to take down a team as talented as the Lakers, sure most of us would have liked to see him take down a superior team but realistically how often has that happened? When was the last time a great player slayed a clearly superior team? MJ NEVER did it, why should we expect it of Bron.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2010, 04:21 PM
Dude, Wade just barely avoided another 1st round sweep and Bosh wasn't even in the playoffs. They only have like 3 other players. Hell no they're not contenders without James! LeBron James was clearly the prize of the 2010 FA class and its not even debatable. Remember the whole one hour special on ESPN or did you forget that fast? I didn't see Wade or Bosh with a one hour special. LeBron is the Man. Period.

First of all, I agree with you that Lebron is the Heat's best player and the best player in the league but you are massively underrating Wade.

Yes, Wade lost in the 1st round but his team was made up of D-League quality players. The fact that they were even in the playoffs with that team is a testament to Wade's abilities. There was nothing embarrassing about that for Wade- he averaged 33.2 ppg, 5.6 rbpg, 6.8 apg, on 56.4% shooting against the Eastern Conference champions. His PER for the playoffs was 29.4 He was outstanding for what he could control, his teammates just sucked- majorly. The talent level on the Heat besides Wade was not like the talent level on the Cavs.

And for what its worth, Lebron's career PER is 26.86 vs. Wade's 25.67. Not a huge difference. And get this- Wade actually has a higher career Ast% than Lebron (34.8 for Wade vs. 34.1 for Lebron). Not to mention, Wade singlehandedly won the title for the Heat in 06 with his performance in the finals- which yes was MJ like.

I'll give a slight edge to Lebron, but statistically it's been very close over their careers. Lebron gets his edge due to his rebounding and defense, in every other category its a virtual deadlock.

As far as the 1 hour special goes, I don't give a **** what the media says, half the time they don't even have a clue. Wade was not getting enough attention for his talents. Believe it or not- Wade will go down as one of the top 5-10 players of all time. Yes, I said that. 6th in career PER right now, 10th in PPG and an all around game to boot with excellent defense.

Does a team with Wade and Bosh become contenders? Hard to say. If Bosh was able to approach Shaq's 05-06 production (which would be hard to do on defense) and the Heat had some surrounding players that complimented Wade well- yes they would very much be title contenders. Bosh's statistical productivity was excellent this past year- offensively though, he doesn't play D. The Heat would have to find a great defensive C to compliment Bosh and surround Wade with some decent role players. But yes, a team could def be title contenders with Wade and Bosh if they were surrounded by good role players.

Edit: On second thought though, the league has gotten better since 05-06, so constructing a team like the 05/06 Heat team that won the championship might not necessarily win now with the Lakers being much better than any team in the West in the 05-06 season. So perhaps I could agree with that statement that they wouldn't be contenders. Still, its Wade and Lebron together that make this team so formidable.

You my friend, are massively underrating Wade.

Jaji
07-13-2010, 04:22 PM
Shaq wasnt that good. Wade did it by himself. Took over. Wade and lebron play the same type of game. LEbron had a good supporing cast. Moe willams then he had antwan jamison and shaq this year with willams parker bIG Z he had enough talent to win it. He had more talent then wade did the year he won it. Wade TOok on dallas by himself and won . Lebron had plenty of talent. How many rings does lebron have?

So Shaq was garbage on the Heat and then good 4 years later on the Cavs?

:facepalm:

Draco
07-13-2010, 04:25 PM
Thats why it fits exactly into the context that building a winner (if not in Cleveland) is joining a brand new team and making it a winner, basically ESTABLISHING Dominance. Not joining a team that had just recently competed for a title on its own ground.

I'm not on the edge of my seat wondering if Lebron is going to be able to take Wade and Bosh to the next level. All the Heat have to do to establish dominance is find the right role players which is by far an easier task than other teams have in trying to find even just 1 super star let alone the impossible task of finding 3... 6 of one, half a dozen of another. Lebron didn't join a team that recently competed for a title, he joined a team that has 2 other top ten players, a team that everyone figures will win multiple rings. For all intents and purposes, that's the same thing. There's no adversity there.. what's Lebron's biggest challenge? Getting past the Lakers? Kobe's 32.. if he can't win this year or next, then he'll eventually win when he's 29.



Of course hes going to win multiple titles, well atleast we agree on that, I just dont see how it makes it ring chasing if hes the one whos responsible for it all. This is what it takes to take down a team as talented as the Lakers, sure most of us would have liked to see him take down a superior team but realistically how often has that happened? When was the last time a great player slayed a clearly superior team? MJ NEVER did it, why should we expect it of Bron.

The way I see it, it's ring chasing because he ran away from a team that didn't get over the hump to one that's almost certain to get over the hump.. multiple times.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2010, 04:32 PM
. Sorry about the double post guys

Jaji
07-13-2010, 04:39 PM
First of all, I agree with you that Lebron is the Heat's best player and the best player in the league but you are massively underrating Wade.

Yes, Wade lost in the 1st round but his team was made up of D-League quality players. The fact that they were even in the playoffs with that team is a testament to Wade's abilities. There was nothing embarrassing about that for Wade- he averaged 33.2 ppg, 5.6 rbpg, 6.8 apg, on 56.4% shooting against the Eastern Conference champions. His PER for the playoffs was 29.4 He was outstanding for what he could control, his teammates just sucked- majorly. The talent level on the Heat besides Wade was not like the talent level on the Cavs.

And for what its worth, Lebron's career PER is 26.86 vs. Wade's 25.67. Not a huge difference. And get this- Wade actually has a higher career Ast% than Lebron (34.8 for Wade vs. 34.1 for Lebron). Not to mention, Wade singlehandedly won the title for the Heat in 06 with his performance in the finals- which yes was MJ like.

I'll give a slight edge to Lebron, but statistically it's been very close over their careers. Lebron gets his edge due to his rebounding and defense, in every other category its a virtual deadlock.

As far as the 1 hour special goes, I don't give a **** what the media says, half the time they don't even have a clue. Wade was not getting enough attention for his talents. Believe it or not- Wade will go down as one of the top 5-10 players of all time. Yes, I said that. 6th in career PER right now, 10th in PPG and an all around game to boot with excellent defense.

Does a team with Wade and Bosh become contenders? Hard to say. If Bosh was able to approach Shaq's 05-06 production (which would be hard to do on defense) and the Heat had some surrounding players that complimented Wade well- yes they would very much be title contenders. Bosh's statistical productivity was excellent this past year- offensively though, he doesn't play D. The Heat would have to find a great defensive C to compliment Bosh and surround Wade with some decent role players. But yes, a team could def be title contenders with Wade and Bosh if they were surrounded by good role players.

Edit: On second thought though, the league has gotten better since 05-06, so constructing a team like the 05/06 Heat team that won the championship might not necessarily win now with the Lakers being much better than any team in the West in the 05-06 season. So perhaps I could agree with that statement that they wouldn't be contenders. Still, its Wade and Lebron together that make this team so formidable.

You my friend, are massively underrating Wade.

I don't think I'm underrating Wade. I won't even argue with anything that you've said. But my point is, for as good as Wade is, Bron is better. He's clearly the best player in the league right now and Kobe is 2nd. The highest Wade can possibly be is 3rd because he's not better than LeBron or Kobe. I however, have him ranked 4th because I'd take Durant over him.

I just have an issue with people saying LeBron went to a title contender. The Heat certainly weren't a title contender last year and simply adding Bosh, a non participant in last year's playoffs, a guy whose never been out of the 1st round and plays no defense, is not enough. Especially when they got rid of everyone else. The Heat didn't become title contenders until about halfway through the LeBron special. You still have to respect Boston, Orlando, Chicago, Atlanta, and whatever other team LeBron would have signed with (New York?). Not to mention the Lakers out West.

I'm not dissing Wade. If anything, I'm dissing Bosh. Adding Bosh alone does not make the Heat title contenders. Bosh to the Cavs with LeBron probably wouldn't even push them over the top, so it definitely wouldn't put the Heat over the top.

And one more thing. People will call me a Wade hater or whatever but the refs cheated in that Mavs series. Wade took more FTs than the Mavs whole team. It was ridiculous. Great series, don't get me wrong. I'll repeat it: Great series. But he definitely didn't do it alone. He had the best sidekick ever, the refs!

E.O.21
07-13-2010, 04:39 PM
Will you quit it with the whole tough guy routine already. It's a forum, no one is intimidated by you and it's sad that you really think of yourself that way.

Armin's point stands. There's more than simply winning a ring. There's something called being a competitor. I'm sorry if you don't understand what that means.

And that's what will ultimately be the difference between Kobe, MJ, Bird, Magic, etc vs Lebron. Even if Lebron may be the most talented of the bunch.

Its all about the rings

Jaji
07-13-2010, 04:43 PM
The way I see it, it's ring chasing because he ran away from a team that didn't get over the hump to one that's almost certain to get over the hump.. multiple times.

That sounds more like you hating than LeBron ring chasing.

Draco
07-13-2010, 04:46 PM
That sounds more like you hating than LeBron ring chasing.

Your definition of ring chasing is?

And don't be afraid to come across like a fanboy...

Jaji
07-13-2010, 04:47 PM
I think you are very naive if you actually think two number one options can "share" the responsibility of being go-to guys come clutch. When the game gets interesting, you have one player who controls the ball the during that time. Whether it was MJ for the Bulls, Kobe for LA, Magic for LA, Wade for Miami and Lebron for Cleveland. None of them except for Magic are pgs, but they all still held the ball when the pressure was up. Because that's what go-to scorers do. It may work for Miami in the beginning. Maybe for a couple years even. But it will wear on them. Especially if one of them screws up in crunch time a few times which is inevitable for any player. It will get on them and one will start thinking how the hell did he **** that up. Like I said, it may take a couple years, but it will get on them.
Lebron may be the better player of the 2, but they are both go-to players and I don't think either will like the possibility of taking second fiddle as time wears on.
Maybe not in the beginning, but it will come. I'm willing to bet on that.

That player will be LeBron because he's the best player. If you're a coach, do you give the ball to your best player or "the guy who was here first?" LeBron gives you the best chance to win. He can score or he can create open shots for his teammates (including Wade). He's a better scorer than Wade and a better distributor. That's an easy one. But the ball will ultimately go to whoever is open and that's a luxury to have 2 guys who can create at the end of a game. But LeBron is definitely the better creator for himself and his teammates.

Now is Wade or LeBron gonna bich about that? I don't think so, they'll be too busy celebrating. That's more of a Kobe thing.

Jaji
07-13-2010, 04:54 PM
Your definition of ring chasing is?

And don't be afraid to come across like a fanboy...

Karl Malone. His career was over so he signed with a team that was going to compete with or without him. All these old vets who now want to play for the Heat since they signed LeBron, Stackhouse, Howard, etc. They're ring chasing. LeBron simply put himself in the best position to win. If he went to the Bulls, Chicago would instantly become a title contender, no? Would that be ring chasing too? By your definition, re-singing with the Cavs would be ring chasing as well because they would also be contenders.

LeBron is what makes the Heat, or whatever team signed him, a title contender. If Miami had signed Steve Blake instead of LeBron would Blake be ring chasing?

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2010, 04:54 PM
I don't think I'm underrating Wade. I won't even argue with anything that you've said. But my point is, for as good as Wade is, Bron is better. He's clearly the best player in the league right now and Kobe is 2nd. The highest Wade can possibly be is 3rd because he's not better than LeBron or Kobe. I however, have him ranked 4th because I'd take Durant over him.

I just have an issue with people saying LeBron went to a title contender. The Heat certainly weren't a title contender last year and simply adding Bosh, a non participant in last year's playoffs, a guy whose never been out of the 1st round and plays no defense, is not enough. Especially when they got rid of everyone else. The Heat didn't become title contenders until about halfway through the LeBron special. You still have to respect Boston, Orlando, Chicago, Atlanta, and whatever other team LeBron would have signed with (New York?). Not to mention the Lakers out West.

I'm not dissing Wade. If anything, I'm dissing Bosh. Adding Bosh alone does not make the Heat title contenders. Bosh to the Cavs with LeBron probably wouldn't even push them over the top, so it definitely wouldn't put the Heat over the top.

And one more thing. People will call me a Wade hater or whatever but the refs cheated in that Mavs series. Wade took more FTs than the Mavs whole team. It was ridiculous. Great series, don't get me wrong. I'll repeat it: Great series. But he definitely didn't do it alone. He had the best sidekick ever, the refs!

This means you are underrating him then. I can understand people saying Wade is worse than Kobe- even though I think Wade is actually better than Kobe (Laker fans are going to kill me for this). But saying he's worse than Durant? That's getting a little ridiculous. I mean how can you say that? What statistics are you using? Just PPG? There's more to the game then just scoring. And you being a big Lebron fan should know that.

Wade's statistical productivity is quite amazing. Whatever you may think of how he got that title, his performance was still amazing. And he still produces the 2nd best statistical season behind Lebron practically every year. Again, the guy's Ast% is actually higher for his career than Lebron's which is pretty crazy- no one would ever have thought that.

I suppose with the injuries you could knock him down for that, but when he's on the court, I personally think he's the 2nd best player in the NBA.

And I've come around on the whole Heat not being contenders unless they get Lebron- I agree. Mainly because of how ridiculously talented the Lakers are. The super team is necessary to beat a team like the Lakers.

Jaji
07-13-2010, 04:57 PM
Lol this has gotten out of control, I can't wait for the next Lebron sweepstakes 6 years from now.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Best Sig Ever! :clap:

Draco
07-13-2010, 05:01 PM
Karl Malone. His career was over so he signed with a team that was going to compete with or without him. All these old vets who now want to play for the Heat since they signed LeBron, Stackhouse, Howard, etc. They're ring chasing.

Yes.



LeBron simply put himself in the best position to win.

Obviously.



If he went to the Bulls, Chicago would instantly become a title contender, no? Would that be ring chasing too?

Yes.



By your definition, re-singing with the Cavs would be ring chasing as well because they would also be contenders.

Had he re-signed with the Cavs he wouldn't be running away from the Cavs...



LeBron is what makes the Heat, or whatever team signed him, a title contender. If Miami had signed Steve Blake instead of LeBron would Blake be ring chasing?

Lebron teammed up with two other top ten players.. it's ring chasing.

Jaji
07-13-2010, 05:09 PM
This means you are underrating him then. I can understand people saying Wade is worse than Kobe- even though I think Wade is actually better than Kobe (Laker fans are going to kill me for this). But saying he's worse than Durant? That's getting a little ridiculous. I mean how can you say that? What statistics are you using? Just PPG? There's more to the game then just scoring. And you being a big Lebron fan should know that.

Wade's statistical productivity is quite amazing. Whatever you may think of how he got that title, his performance was still amazing. And he still produces the 2nd best statistical season behind Lebron practically every year. Again, the guy's Ast% is actually higher for his career than Lebron's which is pretty crazy- no one would ever have thought that.

I suppose with the injuries you could knock him down for that, but when he's on the court, I personally think he's the 2nd best player in the NBA.

That's not underrating him. That just means I don't have him ranked as highly as you (by 2 whole spots :speechless:). He's still in my top 4 players in the league. How is that underrating him just because your top 4 shapes up differently than mine? I could say you're overrating him but I won't. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

You just have a funny way with language. I said "I would take Durant over Wade" and you switched it to "Wade is worse than Durant." See how negative that sounds? I think LeBron is better than Kobe, but in order for Kobe to be "worse" than LeBron, LBJ would have to be bad. It goes good, better, best when describing the top players. Not bad, worse, worst. Man you need a good laugh or something. Life can't be that depressing.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2010, 05:11 PM
That player will be LeBron because he's the best player. If you're a coach, do you give the ball to your best player or "the guy who was here first?" LeBron gives you the best chance to win. He can score or he can create open shots for his teammates (including Wade). He's a better scorer than Wade and a better distributor. That's an easy one. But the ball will ultimately go to whoever is open and that's a luxury to have 2 guys who can create at the end of a game. But LeBron is definitely the better creator for himself and his teammates.

Now is Wade or LeBron gonna bich about that? I don't think so, they'll be too busy celebrating. That's more of a Kobe thing.

Is it? Ast% for thier careers show that they are pretty similar. Wade at 34.8, Lebron at 34.1. (Although considering thier Usg%, it's kind of weird)

Admittedly, Lebron has gotten much much better in the last 3 years and his Ast% have been climbing up for the last 3 years- 37.3, 38, 41.8. Wade's last 3 years- 37.5, 40.3, 36.4 are worse. Not that far off though. I suppose this is probably translating into the 1-1.5 more assists per game Lebron is getting. Again, its pretty close though.

Jaji
07-13-2010, 05:11 PM
Yes.



Obviously.



Yes.



Had he re-signed with the Cavs he wouldn't be running away from the Cavs...



Lebron teammed up with two other top ten players.. it's ring chasing.

So basically you're saying if LeBron signed anywhere but Cleveland, he'd be ring chasing?

valade16
07-13-2010, 05:11 PM
Will you quit it with the whole tough guy routine already. It's a forum, no one is intimidated by you and it's sad that you really think of yourself that way.

Armin's point stands. There's more than simply winning a ring. There's something called being a competitor. I'm sorry if you don't understand what that means.

And that's what will ultimately be the difference between Kobe, MJ, Bird, Magic, etc vs Lebron. Even if Lebron may be the most talented of the bunch.

I'm sorry if you thought I was trying to intimidate you, I'll try to tone down my words from now on...

So in your opinion the Heat will be so much better than every other team that they won't even have to work hard or compete to win rings?:rolleyes:

Yeah, put that way it sounds stupid doesn't it?

The Heat will still have to compete and try their hardest to win any rings they get, heck there are people that don't even think their the best team in the league!

By the way, I didn't see those super competitors like Kobe, MJ, Bird, and Magic complaining that they won't have to compete when they got Shaq, Gasol, Pippen, Rodman, McHale, Heinsohn, Kareem, or James Worthy...

By your standards LeBron is more of a competitor than MJ, Bird, or Magic, all of their teams were better than the Heat are now...

Mars Blackmon
07-13-2010, 05:14 PM
Ali needed Frazier
Larry needed Magic
Holyfield needed Bowe
Leonard needed Hagler
Gatti Needed Ward


See where im going with this? The Great Ones play the BEST to beat the BEST to be the BEST. They dont team up! They face each other. Mano a mano.

James needed Wade

Those 2 going at it for then next 5-6 years. Then facing Kobe in the Finals.
Those are the Great Ones duking it out. Who's the real Champion? Now we'll never know. 1 Supposed Great One joined another Great One to beat the current Great One. James needs someone to hold him while he hits him.

He didnt have the heart to be great. This is the problem everyone has with him. This is where it stems from. He robbed himself of his own legacy with this move. He removed himself from the Kobe MJ James argument.

Those guys had heart and lead their teams to Titles. He had no heart and is trying a Super Team to fix the odds in his favor. A coat tail rider. He lost a lot of respect from all the Great Ones in my book. Somewhere in the country Bird and Magic are shaking their heads in disbelief and dismay....who woulda thought our next Great One was afraid of his own Legacy?

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2010, 05:18 PM
That's not underrating him. That just means I don't have him ranked as highly as you (by 2 whole spots :speechless:). He's still in my top 4 players in the league. How is that underrating him just because your top 4 shapes up differently than mine? I could say you're overrating him but I won't. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

You just have a funny way with language. I said "I would take Durant over Wade" and you switched it to "Wade is worse than Durant." See how negative that sounds? I think LeBron is better than Kobe, but in order for Kobe to be "worse" than LeBron, LBJ would have to be bad. It goes good, better, best when describing the top players. Not bad, worse, worst. Man you need a good laugh or something. Life can't be that depressing.

Fair enough. I just don't understand what metrics you're using to come to that conclusion I guess. Especially considering you're a big Lebron fan- I would think you have an appreciation for the all around game. There's no doubt Durant is the better scorer, maybe the best in the NBA- actually Kobe probably is. But Wade def has the better all around game.

And I would assume that if you would take player A over player B, you think player A is better or the opposite being player B is worse than player A.

Frezhnitz
07-13-2010, 05:21 PM
Its all good that he went to Miami but how he did it is why people are disgusted with.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2010, 05:25 PM
So basically you're saying if LeBron signed anywhere but Cleveland, he'd be ring chasing?

I think the reason people think he's ring chasing is that because he's going to be joining a top 10 player all-time (yes I said that, at the end of Wade's career, he's going to be a top 10 player all time).

Although, I'd have to disagree. A title is a title. Magic had Kareem. Kareem had Magic. Both are top 10 players all time. Neither of their reputations were hurt. This whole fuss is kind of stupid. I suppose its because of MJ- who took it to a different level. There'll never be another MJ guys. Get over it.

valade16
07-13-2010, 05:26 PM
Ali needed Frazier
Larry needed Magic
Holyfield needed Bowe
Leonard needed Hagler
Gatti Needed Ward


See where im going with this? The Great Ones play the BEST to beat the BEST to be the BEST. They dont team up! They face each other. Mano a mano.
He robbed himself of his own legacy with this move. He removed himself from the Kobe MJ James argument.

Those guys had heart and lead their teams to Titles. He had no heart and is trying a Super Team to fix the odds in his favor. A coat tail rider. He lost a lot of respect from all the Great Ones in my book. Somewhere in the country Bird and Magic are shaking their heads in disbelief and dismay....who woulda thought our next Great One was afraid of his own Legacy?

You might want to tell that to Bill Russell, K.C. Jones, Bob Cousy, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, James Worthy, Larry Bird, Tommy Heinson, Kevin McHale, Hakeem Olajuwan, Clyde Drexler, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Isiah Thomas, Bill Lambeer, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Tim Duncan, David Robinson...

I'm pretty sure they were all playing with each other and not against each other for the majority of their careers...

And by the way, if Kobe bryant, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Ron Artest and Andrew Bynum isn't a Super Team, I don't know what is...

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2010, 05:27 PM
Its all good that he went to Miami but how he did it is why people are disgusted with.

Yeah, thats probably true. To be honest though, he looked very uncomfortable. I think he got some very bad advice from his "team".

If I'm not mistaken Maverick Carter wanted him to stay in Cleveland, maybe he told him to do this whole public "decision" thing because he was mad at Lebron and wanted him to look bad for not staying in Cleveland. We all know Maverick was in Lebron's ear a lot. Idk. But Lebron did look very uncomfortable

DCB/LAL
07-13-2010, 05:30 PM
I, like most people, completely overestimated his role players when it came to the playoffs. Winning in the regular season has nothing to do with winning in the playoffs - when a team can game plan for you for 4+ straight games, everyone has to show up to win, period.

If you want to take the time for an objective exercise in understanding this (which I know you don't), then compare the stats of the role players for every team that made the conference finals this year side by side with the stats of the Cavs role players. As much attention as Lebron draws and even though he's the most willing passer of all the superstars, they still couldn't make it happen.

The Cavs lost to the Celtics - the same team that shut Kobe (supposedly the "MOST CLUTCH!1" player in the league) down in the 4th quarter every single game of the finals. His teammates stepped up, Lebron's didn't/couldn't.

Play the role of blind homer all you want, but two or three "poor" games by Lebron over the past 2 seasons' playoffs doesn't justify his teammates not being able to bail him out. Bad games/quarters happen for leading players, but great teams step up their game when it does.




Oh ok so you were right until you were proven wrong? Yeah ok im the Homer just like I was the Homer all season when I explained to every why the Cavs weren't gonna win and YOU would argue with me that they would and that I was just a HOMER(as your doing now) and that the Cavs WOULD WIN.


HMM......my word seems to be the only one with any "credibility" here seeing as how you've already called me homer just to be proven wrong and now you seem to be doing the same thing even though I was right. :rolleyes:


Call me a HOMER all you want ract remains I was right and you.....well you just flip your story and opinions......I guarantee had the Cavs won the title you would of been the first one saying "I told ya so".

Dallas Tx4Life
07-13-2010, 05:32 PM
I think the reason people think he's ring chasing is that because he's going to be joining a top 10 player all-time (yes I said that, at the end of Wade's career, he's going to be a top 10 player all time).

Although, I'd have to disagree. A title is a title. Magic had Kareem. Kareem had Magic. Both are top 10 players all time. Neither of their reputations were hurt. This whole fuss is kind of stupid. I suppose its because of MJ- who took it to a different level. There'll never be another MJ guys. Get over it.

EXACTLY!!! will it mean as much as one in cleveland??? thats not for you to say.. all that should matter is that he gets one.. he wouldnt have in cleveland so every one needs to stfu about their little hoehio hissy fits... if he stayed in cleveland they would have been 3 or 4 seed and not really contenders.. because that team sucks.. gilbert is clearly a bad owner and surely doesnt know how to treat players

Jaji
07-13-2010, 05:34 PM
Is it? Ast% for thier careers show that they are pretty similar. Wade at 34.8, Lebron at 34.1. (Although considering thier Usg%, it's kind of weird)

Admittedly, Lebron has gotten much much better in the last 3 years and his Ast% have been climbing up for the last 3 years- 37.3, 38, 41.8. Wade's last 3 years- 37.5, 40.3, 36.4 are worse. Not that far off though. I suppose this is probably translating into the 1-1.5 more assists per game Lebron is getting. Again, its pretty close though.

There is an easier way to look at this:

LeBron 8.6 APG last year
Wade 6.5 APG last year

Career favors LeBron as well, 7.0 to 6.6.

And if that still doesn't convince you, you could watch a game :shrug:. LeBron is like Magic with a little less passing skills and a little more scoring ability. LeBron not only can pass, he actually likes to do it. That's why I think he'll add to his MVP trophy case. He's at his best when there's other talented guys for him to share the ball with. We've been missing out on that part of his game. I wouldn't be surprised at all if LeBron averaged 10 assists this year.

kozelkid
07-13-2010, 05:35 PM
I'm sorry if you thought I was trying to intimidate you, I'll try to tone down my words from now on...

So in your opinion the Heat will be so much better than every other team that they won't even have to work hard or compete to win rings?:rolleyes:

Yeah, put that way it sounds stupid doesn't it?

I don't think they are. But think that Lebron and co. think that. And why not? You just joined another top 5, hell top 3 player. And Bosh who imo is overrated, but is probably a top 15 player.

Lebron even said he thinks he can bring 7+ championships now. Wade thinks they are the best trio ever. Yes, THEY believe that they are going to be so much better.


The Heat will still have to compete and try their hardest to win any rings they get, heck there are people that don't even think their the best team in the league!

Like I said, their perspective and fans' perspective are two different things.


By the way, I didn't see those super competitors like Kobe, MJ, Bird, and Magic complaining that they won't have to compete when they got Shaq, Gasol, Pippen, Rodman, McHale, Heinsohn, Kareem, or James Worthy...

By your standards LeBron is more of a competitor than MJ, Bird, or Magic, all of their teams were better than the Heat are now...

Sure, because they were complete teams. I'll take this one step at a time.

Let's start with MJ. He made Pippen into that great player. He didn't go join Detroit or Boston cause they kicked his *** the first 6 years. Rodman and Grant are the ultimate complimentary players. Great players, but unlike Wade, they can't lead a team.

On to Kobe. Yes he had Shaq. Did he have a choice? No. He got drafted on a team with Shaq. Eventually it fell apart, but that's besides the point. When Kobe wanted out, he wanted to go to Chicago TO BE THE LEADER. They had a promising core and he wanted to lead them. In the end he got Gasol, Bynum etc. He's still the leader and none of the players on that team are capable of leading a championship team.

On to Magic. Same as Kobe, he got drafted into a team with Kareem. he didn't have a choice. He also didn't take over the team and truly become that legendary player til the 86 season. By then he had to cause Kareem was 38. And he'd go on to win 3 more championships as the head guy.

On to Bird. I don't know as much about the 80s Celtics as these other 3 teams, but Bird was always number one option and once again didn't have a choice. And I don't think McHale is capable of leading a team.

And finally Lebron. If Lebron went to NY or Chicago. I'd respect him as that competitor. I couldn't respect him as a person, never have and regardless he shitted on Cleveland. But as a competitor I would because he'd still be the number one option there. Instead he joined one of the few other established number one guys in Wade. A guy who is actually more accomplished if you look at postseason play.
That's the difference. MJ would never go to Detroit or Boston. Kobe would never have demanded a trade to Cleveland or Orlando (back when Tmac was good). Bird would never go to Philadelphia with Moses and Dr. J or LA. And same with Magic. That's the BIG difference. And that's why I along with many other people have lost a lot of respect for Lebron as a competitor.
It also makes me wonder if he indeed quit in the playoffs. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and maybe he had an elbow injury. Based on this move, I'm not sure. I just don't think he has the competitiveness in him like some of those greats did.

DCB/LAL
07-13-2010, 05:38 PM
There is an easier way to look at this:

LeBron 8.6 APG last year
Wade 6.5 APG last year

Career favors LeBron as well, 7.0 to 6.6.

And if that still doesn't convince you, you could watch a game :shrug:. LeBron is like Magic with a little less passing skills and a little more scoring ability. LeBron not only can pass, he actually likes to do it. That's why I think he'll add to his MVP trophy case. He's at his best when there's other talented guys for him to share the ball with. We've been missing out on that part of his game. I wouldn't be surprised at all if LeBron averaged 10 assists this year.



Before you go posting stats and what not I hope you do realize that all these players stats are gonna take a pretty good drop......for this to work they have to sacrifice ALL OF THEM DO.....so dont expect to see the same numbers from these guys that your use to casue what he may of averaged before means NOTHING they all need to change their games.

Jaji
07-13-2010, 05:39 PM
Fair enough. I just don't understand what metrics you're using to come to that conclusion I guess. Especially considering you're a big Lebron fan- I would think you have an appreciation for the all around game. There's no doubt Durant is the better scorer, maybe the best in the NBA- actually Kobe probably is. But Wade def has the better all around game.

And I would assume that if you would take player A over player B, you think player A is better or the opposite being player B is worse than player A.

It's called personal opinion. I'm a human being, not a machine. I'd prefer Durant. Am I allowed to do that? I hope so because I'm not the only one. He can score from anywhere and I think he has the length to become a lockdown defender and shot blocker.

And again, in order for A to be worse than B, B has to be bad. Bad, worse, worst. Not best, worse, worser, worser, worser....... worst. How does that sound? I don't use negative terms like that when describing the top players in the league. Worse is a negative adjective. It goes good, better best. Unless you live in a world with no sunlight :(. Why would the word worse come up when describing the best? :confused:

Jaji
07-13-2010, 05:41 PM
Ali needed Frazier
Larry needed Magic
Holyfield needed Bowe
Leonard needed Hagler
Gatti Needed Ward


See where im going with this? The Great Ones play the BEST to beat the BEST to be the BEST. They dont team up! They face each other. Mano a mano.

James needed Wade

Those 2 going at it for then next 5-6 years. Then facing Kobe in the Finals.
Those are the Great Ones duking it out. Who's the real Champion? Now we'll never know. 1 Supposed Great One joined another Great One to beat the current Great One. James needs someone to hold him while he hits him.

He didnt have the heart to be great. This is the problem everyone has with him. This is where it stems from. He robbed himself of his own legacy with this move. He removed himself from the Kobe MJ James argument.

Those guys had heart and lead their teams to Titles. He had no heart and is trying a Super Team to fix the odds in his favor. A coat tail rider. He lost a lot of respect from all the Great Ones in my book. Somewhere in the country Bird and Magic are shaking their heads in disbelief and dismay....who woulda thought our next Great One was afraid of his own Legacy?

James and Wade never even met in the playoffs. Kobe and the Lakers are the best. The Heat barely avoided a 1st round sweep.

Jaji
07-13-2010, 05:47 PM
Before you go posting stats and what not I hope you do realize that all these players stats are gonna take a pretty good drop......for this to work they have to sacrifice ALL OF THEM DO.....so dont expect to see the same numbers from these guys that your use to casue what he may of averaged before means NOTHING they all need to change their games.

Before I go posting stats? :laugh2:

You obviously haven't been following along. I posted 1 stat in response to his 15,000. And, the one stat I posted is the one most likely to go up. LeBron will average more assists with more scorers around him.

LeBron's game is built to be on an All Star team. He distributes the ball like no other superstar (sans Magic) in the history of the game. He routinely led the Cavs in both scoring and assists which is hard to do because if you're doing most of the scoring then usually someone else is doing the distributing. LeBron can do it all and when he gets other scorers around him (not Mo Williams :facepalm:) his assists will only go up. He'll still average around 25 a game too. Wade? Probably 22 or 23.

DCB/LAL
07-13-2010, 05:53 PM
Before I go posting stats? :laugh2:

You obviously haven't been following along. I posted 1 stat in response to his 15,000. And, the one stat I posted is the one most likely to go up. LeBron will average more assists with more scorers around him.

LeBron's game is built to be on an All Star team. He distributes the ball like no other superstar (sans Magic) in the history of the game. He routinely led the Cavs in both scoring and assists which is hard to do because if you're doing most of the scoring then usually someone else is doing the distributing. LeBron can do it all and when he gets other scorers around him (not Mo Williams :facepalm:) his assists will only go up. He'll still average around 25 a game too. Wade? Probably 22 or 23.

You dont seem to understand that Wade plays the same way Lebron does......Wade needs the ball in his hands as well Lebron wont have the ball in his hands all the time like he did for the Cavs.....they have all agreed INCLUDING LEBRON that they have to sacrifice and just because you think Lebron is the best player doesn't mean its gonna happen like you say it is.

The ChiCago KiD
07-13-2010, 05:54 PM
lebron is ring chasing...quit..you sound dumb...he made remarks saying he was going to stay in cleveland and win a ring...he left...ran out on his home town...whatever....lebrons whole goal is to win a ring....he went somewhere where he could do that where he would not have to work as hard....miami....is that chasing a ring...I think so...do I care..not really....is he a douche....yea....but if he wins 1 ring or 7 rings they willnever be truly all his.,...because he teamed up with 2 other awesome players to do it.....the heat will never be his team....sure he will own the rings but the victories willnever be his alone...its not his team....he is just a robin to batman...no more no less.....I think what he did was kinda BS....would we of like him in chicago ....im not going to be a douche and so no...sure...is it sour grapes that I feel this way...I dont think so....I just think that he took the easy way out...will he ever be as good as jordan......Not even close....some will say..well they are two different types of players...I say nope..he willnever be as good as jordan...or kobe....just my two cents...

valade16
07-13-2010, 05:56 PM
Lebron even said he thinks he can bring 7+ championships now. Wade thinks they are the best trio ever. Yes, THEY believe that they are going to be so much better.

Let's start with MJ. He made Pippen into that great player. He didn't go join Detroit or Boston cause they kicked his *** the first 6 years. Rodman and Grant are the ultimate complimentary players. Great players, but unlike Wade, they can't lead a team.

On to Kobe. Yes he had Shaq. Did he have a choice? No. He got drafted on a team with Shaq. Eventually it fell apart, but that's besides the point. When Kobe wanted out, he wanted to go to Chicago TO BE THE LEADER. They had a promising core and he wanted to lead them. In the end he got Gasol, Bynum etc. He's still the leader and none of the players on that team are capable of leading a championship team.

On to Magic. Same as Kobe, he got drafted into a team with Kareem. he didn't have a choice. He also didn't take over the team and truly become that legendary player til the 86 season. By then he had to cause Kareem was 38. And he'd go on to win 3 more championships as the head guy.

On to Bird. I don't know as much about the 80s Celtics as these other 3 teams, but Bird was always number one option and once again didn't have a choice. And I don't think McHale is capable of leading a team.

That's the difference. MJ would never go to Detroit or Boston. Kobe would never have demanded a trade to Cleveland or Orlando (back when Tmac was good). Bird would never go to Philadelphia with Moses and Dr. J or LA. And same with Magic. That's the BIG difference. And that's why I along with many other people have lost a lot of respect for Lebron as a competitor.
It also makes me wonder if he indeed quit in the playoffs. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and maybe he had an elbow injury. Based on this move, I'm not sure. I just don't think he has the competitiveness in him like some of those greats did.

Sorry guy, I got you hook line and sinker, see I knew you would bring up those points.

First, who cares what LeBron or Wade SAID? NBA players say crap all the time, remember when Paul Pierce said he was the best player in the league?

And your point that MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, and them didn't choose those positions they were in, they were put there has one serious lack of thinking.

So LeBron should be punished by having to stay on his own team because he was drafted there EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN'T ENTER INTO THE SAME BENEFICAL SITUATIONS AS THOSE OTHER PLAYERS. Is it LeBrons fault he was drafted onto a bad team? So Magic, Kobe and Birds legacies are secure because they were drafted onto teams that were good?

Seems a little unfair to LeBron doesn't it?

It's kind of like telling kids who grow up poor that they have to stay there because that's where they were born. You are advocating NBA feudalism.

If LeBron had been drafted by the 79 Lakers, the 80 Celtics, the 96 Lakers, he'd already have 5 titles by now...

The ChiCago KiD
07-13-2010, 05:59 PM
I am not trolling or baiting either...I just thought as a fan of basketball I could leave my opinion here thanks

tredigs
07-13-2010, 06:01 PM
Oh ok so you were right until you were proven wrong? Yeah ok im the Homer just like I was the Homer all season when I explained to every why the Cavs weren't gonna win and YOU would argue with me that they would and that I was just a HOMER(as your doing now) and that the Cavs WOULD WIN.


HMM......my word seems to be the only one with any "credibility" here seeing as how you've already called me homer just to be proven wrong and now you seem to be doing the same thing even though I was right. :rolleyes:


Call me a HOMER all you want ract remains I was right and you.....well you just flip your story and opinions......I guarantee had the Cavs won the title you would of been the first one saying "I told ya so".

As they destroyed the league throughout the regular season (including the Lakers), it looked like they'd be primed to do more of the same in the playoffs, but his teammates simply didn't show up. So while I readily admit that I was wrong about the Cavs being the favorites, the reason is because I overestimated his supporting cast. I'm not an idiot, and I'm not afraid to reevaluate a position based what's right in front of us.

Lebron showed up 9/10 games, but how many other players did not - and how ridiculous is it that they are receiving NONE of the blame from the haters like you?

^ Is there a reason why you're sidestepping that fact -- Why everyone who likes to hate on the guy seems to sidestep that fact? Or the fact that Kobe was horrible in the 4th quarter of each game during the finals, to go along with a sorry entire game 7? Kobe was helped IMMENSELY on the way to the finals, especially by Pau - who was actually as good or better than Kobe throughout the playoffs. Yet the Kobe die-hards just notch it up as "another ring for Kobe, another loss for Lebron". I can't help but laugh at you.

The Cavs team is going to be virtually the same as they were last year, only without Lebron -- and they will not win more than 25 games (this is being generous).

If only there was a scenario where we could switch Lebron and Kobe's places last season and seen how it all played out. IMO there's virtually no chance Kobe earns a top seed with the Cavs (especially with his injuries), and they have a good chance of losing in the first round. Lebron on the Lakers? No change - it's a title.

The ChiCago KiD
07-13-2010, 06:01 PM
Sorry guy, I got you hook line and sinker, see I knew you would bring up those points.

First, who cares what LeBron or Wade SAID? NBA players say crap all the time, remember when Paul Pierce said he was the best player in the league?

And your point that MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, and them didn't choose those positions they were in, they were put there has one serious lack of thinking.

So LeBron should be punished by having to stay on his own team because he was drafted there EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN'T ENTER INTO THE SAME BENEFICAL SITUATIONS AS THOSE OTHER PLAYERS. Is it LeBrons fault he was drafted onto a bad team? So Magic, Kobe and Birds legacies are secure because they were drafted onto teams that were good?

Seems a little unfair to LeBron doesn't it?

It's kind of like telling kids who grow up poor that they have to stay there because that's where they were born. You are advocating NBA feudalism.If LeBron had been drafted by the 79 Lakers, the 80 Celtics, the 96 Lakers, he'd already have 5 titles by now...



your an idiot

valade16
07-13-2010, 06:03 PM
your an idiot

How insightful!

If you want to waste people's time, please do it somewhere else...

Jaji
07-13-2010, 06:03 PM
You dont seem to understand that Wade plays the same way Lebron does......Wade needs the ball in his hands as well Lebron wont have the ball in his hands all the time like he did for the Cavs.....they have all agreed INCLUDING LEBRON that they have to sacrifice and just because you think Lebron is the best player doesn't mean its gonna happen like you say it is.

Wade played PG as a rookie then got moved to off guard. LeBron will have the ball in his hands the most I guarantee that. He's the best at creating shots for his teammates. He averaged 9 assists per game with the shiddy Cavs? Imagine when he plays with guys who can actually put the ball in the basket.

I don't understand what you're saying? That the Heat will implode? That's called wishful thinking, my friend. You have a better shot at Magic and Kareem returning to the Lakers and regaining their prime form.

Jaji
07-13-2010, 06:07 PM
lebron is ring chasing...quit..you sound dumb...he made remarks saying he was going to stay in cleveland and win a ring...he left...ran out on his home town...whatever....lebrons whole goal is to win a ring....he went somewhere where he could do that where he would not have to work as hard....miami....is that chasing a ring...I think so...do I care..not really....is he a douche....yea....but if he wins 1 ring or 7 rings they willnever be truly all his.,...because he teamed up with 2 other awesome players to do it.....the heat will never be his team....sure he will own the rings but the victories willnever be his alone...its not his team....he is just a robin to batman...no more no less.....I think what he did was kinda BS....would we of like him in chicago ....im not going to be a douche and so no...sure...is it sour grapes that I feel this way...I dont think so....I just think that he took the easy way out...will he ever be as good as jordan......Not even close....some will say..well they are two different types of players...I say nope..he willnever be as good as jordan...or kobe....just my two cents...

^:bla: = "Man I wish the Bulls could have gotten LeBron!" :mad:

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2010, 06:13 PM
There is an easier way to look at this:

LeBron 8.6 APG last year
Wade 6.5 APG last year

Career favors LeBron as well, 7.0 to 6.6.

And if that still doesn't convince you, you could watch a game :shrug:. LeBron is like Magic with a little less passing skills and a little more scoring ability. LeBron not only can pass, he actually likes to do it. That's why I think he'll add to his MVP trophy case. He's at his best when there's other talented guys for him to share the ball with. We've been missing out on that part of his game. I wouldn't be surprised at all if LeBron averaged 10 assists this year.

Assist % is the % of a player's possessions that ends in an assist. So it looks at basically the same thing but I like it better because its pace adjusted and it takes into account the amount of minutes you play.

I believe Wade's teams have played very slow the last couple years (19th in pace last year) whereas Lebron's teams have generally played at a faster pace (4th last year). Therefore he gets more assist opportunities because the team is getting more possessions due to playing at a faster pace.

But again, Lebron was DEF better this year in terms of assist %.

BTW, you're going to see Wade's assist per game numbers go up too- a lot more because if his team plays at a faster pace, he's going to have more opportunities compared to the slow pace his team has been playing the last couple years.

Agree with you about Lebron being like Magic. He is DEF a great great passer. But so is Wade, he's just been on a slow team with no talent around him.

DCB/LAL
07-13-2010, 06:15 PM
Wade played PG as a rookie then got moved to off guard. LeBron will have the ball in his hands the most I guarantee that. He's the best at creating shots for his teammates. He averaged 9 assists per game with the shiddy Cavs? Imagine when he plays with guys who can actually put the ball in the basket.

I don't understand what you're saying? That the Heat will implode? That's called wishful thinking, my friend. You have a better shot at Magic and Kareem returning to the Lakers and regaining their prime form.

You dont seem to understand what the word sacrifice means.....what you expect Wade to just take a back seat to Lebron because you think Lebron is the better player? You expect Wade to just sit back and say "ok Lebron its your team, go be the play maker and do what you did in Cleveland"?


GTFO with that BS you seem to forget Lebron left Cleveland because he DIDN'T want to be the guy doing everything and having to set everybody up all the time......he himself said that......and now your gonna ask him to do the EXACT same thing he walked away from? And whats worse is you expect Wade(thats who's team this is) to just take a back seat to Lebron because you say Lebron is the better player? RRRRRIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHTTTT!! :rolleyes:



Then you say Lebrons numbers will improve because he is on a better team now.....well SO IS WADE!! But im sure your not thinking of his numbers improving because Lebron is the better player right?

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2010, 06:27 PM
It's called personal opinion. I'm a human being, not a machine. I'd prefer Durant. Am I allowed to do that? I hope so because I'm not the only one. He can score from anywhere and I think he has the length to become a lockdown defender and shot blocker.

And again, in order for A to be worse than B, B has to be bad. Bad, worse, worst. Not best, worse, worser, worser, worser....... worst. How does that sound? I don't use negative terms like that when describing the top players in the league. Worse is a negative adjective. It goes good, better best. Unless you live in a world with no sunlight :(. Why would the word worse come up when describing the best? :confused:

No you're allowed your personal opinion but I was just wondering why you think Durant is better. Durant is a better scorer than Wade (and Lebron for that matter), his jump shot is one of the best in the game. From a shooting POV, he might be second to only Kobe.

And you're right, he has the potential to become a lockdown defender and shot blocker, he just isn't right now. It's still potential which is why I think Wade is better right now. Wade is def the better passer, the better defender, gets more steals and blocks too (which is included in defense), Durant is the better rebounder (tho he's obviously much taller). Wade's also better in regards to the turnovers- 10.7 TO% for Durant, 9.8% for Wade.

In all fairness though, its tough to compare them because their games are so drastically different. Durant plays more like a big even though he's a SF. Wade plays more like a scoring PG.

OK, I mean if player A is better player B, then isn't that the same as saying player B is worse than player A? But I think I get what you mean. You don't like the fact that I'm using the word worse to describe the best players in the game. That does make sense I guess. So I guess I should just use "better" instead of "worse". lol

mr hardney
07-13-2010, 06:31 PM
Get over it! Are you guys that bitter and you keep going on with lebron and miami. We would of been fine if lebron stayed in cleveland or went to chicago, he wanted to become of something really big and this is it. Just enjoy the show!

wade should be bared out of chicago..what a sell out to his home town..

The ChiCago KiD
07-13-2010, 06:35 PM
I hope ledouche is seriously shunned by the nba players.....hes weak....couldnt do it on his own....no matter what you say the guy couldnt get it done by himself.....he could win a 100 rings with these guys and you know what ...it wouldnt matter cause he couldnt do it with the cavs...and Im not even a cavs fan.....I just think he took the cheap way out....the easy way....he will never be brought as a top player in NBA history to me....never....and thats my opinion...

Chronz
07-13-2010, 06:37 PM
I'm not on the edge of my seat wondering if Lebron is going to be able to take Wade and Bosh to the next level. All the Heat have to do to establish dominance is find the right role players which is by far an easier task than other teams have in trying to find even just 1 super star let alone the impossible task of finding 3... 6 of one, half a dozen of another. Lebron didn't join a team that recently competed for a title, he joined a team that has 2 other top ten players, a team that everyone figures will win multiple rings. For all intents and purposes, that's the same thing.
You know what your probably right, maybe he just realized that goal was impossible in Cleveland but whether or not your warmed up to the idea of them playing together is irrelevant, there are enough people excited at the prospect of them putting forth the greatest show in NBA history. As such we measure them by these grounds, how they win. Sure it may seem like overkill that they have 3 mega stars but thats why we arent just expecting them to win, but to dominate. Anything short of that is a failure, even them winning by the skins of their teeth would diminish their stature (Barring Bynum turning into a superior player than Bosh).

If thats ring chasing then so be it, it doesnt take away from the title, only their play will determine that. If you understand the alternative of joining forces (having to carry a considerably greater load, considerably inferior teammates to win the title) then I dont see how you can fault them for wanting to be on the end that Kobe and Pierce have been on the past few years. Being on the most talented teams.


There's no adversity there.. what's Lebron's biggest challenge? Getting past the Lakers? Kobe's 32.. if he can't win this year or next, then he'll eventually win when he's 29.
LEGACY. It doesnt take a genius to realize Bron will eventually win atleast 1 by the time Kobes done or nearing a level of play where we wouldnt expect him to carry his team to such a degree anymore. But what exactly would that mean? It would just be the gradual passing of the torch but wouldnt it mean so much more to put a stop to the Laker Dynasty while its still in full force? Pau/Kobe/Bynum are the most talented 3-some when healthy, add to the fact that they have a championship supporting cast behind them and you realize this is the only way for them to have the most talent in the game.




The way I see it, it's ring chasing because he ran away from a team that didn't get over the hump to one that's almost certain to get over the hump.. multiple times.
Almost certain because of him and his gifts, its not as if hes joining a team that would win without him. Thats ring chasing, when you go for the free ring and are willing to accept a far lesser role. But maybe our definitions of ring chasing differs.

_KB24_
07-13-2010, 06:38 PM
The Cavs team is going to be virtually the same as they were last year, only without Lebron -- and they will not win more than 25 games (this is being generous).

No, they are going to lose both of their centers as well. If West is gone as well, thats 4 players gone from their rotation, nearly half of it.

xxplayerxx23
07-13-2010, 06:41 PM
So Shaq was garbage on the Heat and then good 4 years later on the Cavs?

:facepalm:

DIdnt say that:facepalm: I said shaq wasnt great on miami and he was bad on clevland my point is wade or mj put on clevland would of won a championship

Chronz
07-13-2010, 06:42 PM
Is it? Ast% for thier careers show that they are pretty similar. Wade at 34.8, Lebron at 34.1. (Although considering thier Usg%, it's kind of weird)

Admittedly, Lebron has gotten much much better in the last 3 years and his Ast% have been climbing up for the last 3 years- 37.3, 38, 41.8. Wade's last 3 years- 37.5, 40.3, 36.4 are worse. Not that far off though. I suppose this is probably translating into the 1-1.5 more assists per game Lebron is getting. Again, its pretty close though.
Keep in mind turnovers are also a byproduct of passing, knowing when to and when not to pass. Bron is more efficient in this regard I believe

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2010, 06:44 PM
DIdnt say that:facepalm: I said shaq wasnt great on miami and he was bad on clevland my point is wade or mj put on clevland would of won a championship

No they wouldn't have. That Cleveland team was really not that good. A very old Shaq doesn't help, neither does a 33 year old Jamison who is undersized going against Garnett, neither does Mo Williams who is probably one of the most overrated players in the game.

And Shaq was actually pretty good with Miami. He was the perfect #2 man, at a time when he still had enough of a game so that he wasn't an old fart.

Maybe MJ would've won with that team but I don't really think so.

Chronz
07-13-2010, 06:44 PM
No, they are going to lose both of their centers as well. If West is gone as well, thats 4 players gone from their rotation, nearly half of it.
Irrelevant, when Shaq was out the Cavs didnt miss a beat, same with Big Z. They have the depth to account for that, however they dont have it this year but if they stay reasonably healthy, this is still basically the same team as last year only minus Bron. Big Z's production will be easily replaced.

Dallas Tx4Life
07-13-2010, 06:44 PM
wade should be bared out of chicago..what a sell out to his home town..

christ can we please cut all the "sell out to his town" ****.... its not up to you, you cant even speculate on if he made the right or wrong choice until theres something to back it up

Chronz
07-13-2010, 06:45 PM
So basically you're saying if LeBron signed anywhere but Cleveland, he'd be ring chasing?
I believe you are correct sir

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2010, 06:48 PM
Keep in mind turnovers are also a byproduct of passing, knowing when to and when not to pass. Bron is more efficient in this regard I believe

Yeah, he is. 14.2% for Wade vs 11.7% for Lebron. Pretty decent size gap there.

I do think Lebron is the better passer (upon looking at this now) but I just don't think its as big of a gap as people make it out to be.

_KB24_
07-13-2010, 06:56 PM
Irrelevant, when Shaq was out the Cavs didnt miss a beat, same with Big Z. They have the depth to account for that, however they dont have it this year but if they stay reasonably healthy, this is still basically the same team as last year only minus Bron. Big Z's production will be easily replaced.

You answered my point in your own words. They had depth last year, but missing FOUR important players in your rotation is obviously a big hit. If you took last year's Cavs team and just subtract Lebron, they are fighting for a playoff seed.

kozelkid
07-13-2010, 07:01 PM
Sorry guy, I got you hook line and sinker, see I knew you would bring up those points.

First, who cares what LeBron or Wade SAID? NBA players say crap all the time, remember when Paul Pierce said he was the best player in the league?

No it just means that Lebron thinks he took the easier way out. And Pierce believes he was the best player. Your hook line and sinker quote is cute. But you didn't prove anything. Lebron DOES believe that it will be easy for him, that's the thing. And it's clear as day.
And while he'd have an easier time in NY or Chicago as well as opposed to Cleveland. The pressure would still be on him come crunch time. Not anymore in Cleveland where he can rely on Wade.


And your point that MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, and them didn't choose those positions they were in, they were put there has one serious lack of thinking.

Nope


So LeBron should be punished by having to stay on his own team because he was drafted there EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN'T ENTER INTO THE SAME BENEFICAL SITUATIONS AS THOSE OTHER PLAYERS. Is it LeBrons fault he was drafted onto a bad team? So Magic, Kobe and Birds legacies are secure because they were drafted onto teams that were good?


I'm pretty sure I answered the fact that if he went to NY or Chicago he'd still be the number one guy and who have pressure on him in clutch situations. Next time, maybe try actually reading the damn post.


Seems a little unfair to LeBron doesn't it?

Sure which is why I'm pretty sure I said, I'd still respect him as a competitor if he went to NY or Chicago as the number one guy. Or NJ for that matter.


It's kind of like telling kids who grow up poor that they have to stay there because that's where they were born. You are advocating NBA feudalism.

If LeBron had been drafted by the 79 Lakers, the 80 Celtics, the 96 Lakers, he'd already have 5 titles by now...

Maybe. And if he went to Chicago or NY, he would still be in discussion for possible a top 10 player of all time. As of now, he took himself out of that discussion.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2010, 07:05 PM
The problem with this whole ring chasing thing is that some people have different definitions of what it is. I mean if the team can't win without you, then how is it ring chasing?

On the other hand, if you're leaving a situation where the talent level is not up to par for winning a ring and going to a place where there is enough talent to win a ring, it could be considered ring chasing.

In the end though, why does it matter? So many great players have gone "ring chasing". There's been some that haven't but they were drafted into a great team. Magic didn't have to go ring chasing because he was on the same team as Kareem. If Wade and Lebron had started out on the same team, I doubt they'd have to worry about ring chasing. Kobe won his first 3 rings with Shaq. Then he demanded a trade when the talent around him wasn't good enough and he couldn't get out of the first round. Unlike the Cavs though, the Lakers had drafted better (Bynum) and got a gift from the Grizzles (Gasol). Otherwise, do you think Kobe would still be with the Lakers. The guy asked for a trade.

MJ is a unique case. He didn't win in his first 7 years but he eventually got Pippen, Phil and a good set of role players. We're also talking about the greatest player to every play the game tho. No one will be in his class.

kozelkid
07-13-2010, 07:05 PM
Almost certain because of him and his gifts, its not as if hes joining a team that would win without him.

Miami would definitely be a contender if they didn't sign him and instead used that cap on a great supporting cast like say some money on Haywood, some on a defensive player like a Ronnie Brewer, along with some shooters and maybe another pg like a Jason Williams. They'd be a contender either way. So you aren't correct in saying that.


Thats ring chasing, when you go for the free ring and are willing to accept a far lesser role. But maybe our definitions of ring chasing differs.

But that's exactly what he's doing... He might not even be that go to guy come crunch time.

eibbor
07-13-2010, 07:07 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/ian_thomsen/07/12/dan.gilbert/index.html?eref=sihp

An insider... aka someone without enough balls to just say what they think.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2010, 07:10 PM
You answered my point in your own words. They had depth last year, but missing FOUR important players in your rotation is obviously a big hit. If you took last year's Cavs team and just subtract Lebron, they are fighting for a playoff seed.

How do you know that? I mean I could say if you took Kobe off the Lakers, they're still a top 6 seed in the West (with Gasol and Bynum being unstoppable). No one knows that though. Laker fans would argue I'm nowhere near right but how do you know?

We'll see this year though. The contributions of Shaq and Big Z weren't that much, I believe Big Z didn't even play much. Shaq couldn't play more than 15-20 mins either.

Daze9900
07-13-2010, 07:13 PM
How is LeBron ring chasing when the only reason Miami is a contender is because they have LeBron?

You missed the entire concept of him piggybacking off D-wade whom already is a champion.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2010, 07:15 PM
.


Maybe. And if he went to Chicago or NY, he would still be in discussion for possible a top 10 player of all time. As of now, he took himself out of that discussion.

Are Magic and Kareem top 10 players of all time? Because they had each other for their titles.

handle
07-13-2010, 07:18 PM
Get over it! Are you guys that bitter and you keep going on with lebron and miami. We would of been fine if lebron stayed in cleveland or went to chicago, he wanted to become of something really big and this is it. Just enjoy the show!

The only show I'm going to enjoy is when they get knocked out of the playoffs. :clap:

cle12152433
07-13-2010, 07:21 PM
The only show I'm going to enjoy is when they get knocked out of the playoffs. :clap:

:nod::dance:

kozelkid
07-13-2010, 07:35 PM
Are Magic and Kareem top 10 players of all time? Because they had each other for their titles.

I'm pretty sure I explained that Magic didn't have a choice. Kareem's best years was still as the number one guy. Whether it was in Milwaukee or early on when Magic just started. It was by the 86 season that Magic finally took over. By then Kareem was 38 and near the end of his career. And Magic would go on to win 2 more rings as the main guy while Kareem was declining. So no, not the same.
A similar comparison would be if Lebron got drafted by the Heat right now.

Chronz
07-13-2010, 07:41 PM
Before you go posting stats and what not I hope you do realize that all these players stats are gonna take a pretty good drop......for this to work they have to sacrifice ALL OF THEM DO.....so dont expect to see the same numbers from these guys that your use to casue what he may of averaged before means NOTHING they all need to change their games.
It doesnt mean nothing, lol please dont speak on behalf of the statistical aspect of basketball.

Chronz
07-13-2010, 07:42 PM
I
Let's start with MJ. He made Pippen into that great player. He didn't go join Detroit or Boston cause they kicked his *** the first 6 years.
Did he have the choice, did Brons team ever draft him a Pippen?



On to Kobe. Yes he had Shaq. Did he have a choice? No.
Yes, he basically forced his way to LA. Dont act like you dont know this.


He got drafted on a team with Shaq. Eventually it fell apart, but that's besides the point. When Kobe wanted out, he wanted to go to Chicago TO BE THE LEADER. They had a promising core and he wanted to lead them. In the end he got Gasol, Bynum etc. He's still the leader and none of the players on that team are capable of leading a championship team.
In the end Gasol and Bynum(not now but soon) could also "lead" their teams to titles, if given an adequate supporting cast any good player can win a title. Thats why we dont measure players by rings or raw win tallies, but by how they performed in those victories and losses. And the league is different than then, Kobe was granted the best front court any star has ever had. The only way to exceed the Lakers from a talent perspective was to unite forces. I understand it pisses you off, but think of it as the last test Kobe has to face.


On to Magic. Same as Kobe, he got drafted into a team with Kareem. he didn't have a choice. He also didn't take over the team and truly become that legendary player til the 86 season. By then he had to cause Kareem was 38. And he'd go on to win 3 more championships as the head guy.

You speak as if the rest of Brons career is a foregone conclusion to go a certain way. Bron has plenty of time to win chips in a variety of ways and roles.



On to Bird. I don't know as much about the 80s Celtics as these other 3 teams, but Bird was always number one option and once again didn't have a choice. And I don't think McHale is capable of leading a team.

These players choices are different than today, had they played under todays rules Bird team may not have existed. Unless they all take massive paycuts.


And finally Lebron. If Lebron went to NY or Chicago. I'd respect him as that competitor. I couldn't respect him as a person, never have and regardless he shitted on Cleveland. But as a competitor I would because he'd still be the number one option there. Instead he joined one of the few other established number one guys in Wade. A guy who is actually more accomplished if you look at postseason play.
Wade more accomplished? Doubtfull, in a few years when all the dust has settled people will look back as Bron as co #1 and as Wade declines Bron will be enabled to be the alpha dog ala Magic-KAJ.

Besides, your wrong about thats what competitors do. Atleast from the point where thats whats required to win. MJ not giving isnt what made them beat the Pistons, it was the fact that they declined and his young up and comers entered their peak phase. Bron has no such prospects alongside him. Hes always been surrounded by aging vets and limited shooters. Bron just wants what Kobe/MJ/Pierce/Shaq/Duncan/KG have had, THE MOST TALENTED TEAM IN THE LEAGUE


That's the difference. MJ would never go to Detroit or Boston. Kobe would never have demanded a trade to Cleveland or Orlando (back when Tmac was good). Bird would never go to Philadelphia with Moses and Dr. J or LA. And same with Magic. That's the BIG difference. And that's why I along with many other people have lost a lot of respect for Lebron as a competitor.
It also makes me wonder if he indeed quit in the playoffs. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and maybe he had an elbow injury. Based on this move, I'm not sure. I just don't think he has the competitiveness in him like some of those greats did.
Not buying your unsubstantiated opinions.

DCB/LAL
07-13-2010, 07:48 PM
It doesnt mean nothing, lol please dont speak on behalf of the statistical aspect of basketball.

He was the one who threw out numbers im just telling him you cant expect these guys to put up the same stats as before...esepecially if they want it to work.