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View Full Version : Kobe the Last of a dying breed



Blackryder45
07-12-2010, 05:34 PM
Honestly I donít dislike or like any of the three (LB, Dwade, Bosh) , I respect that they are great players but, I feel there is a trend that is beginning that players want to join forces because they are not tough enough to get their team there themselves. Ive heard spills the next three will be Paul, Melo, Stoudamire.

Its pretty sad to me, I feel like this a trend bound to continue and being a Lakers fan this might be my last 5 years of watching NBA ball , Donít get me wrong I am a die hard Lakers fan, When Kobe was tripping about being traded, I said trade his *&& to mars lol. But at the same time Iíd be a liar if I didnít say I watched NBA for the journey of the superstars too. Honestly how many of you were not rooting for Kobe to get his 5th to tie magic or phil to get his 10th to pass Red.

Also I honestly feel these three can never be compared to the likes of Kobe, Mike, or even Reggie, Ewing or Barkley etcÖ I am sure Bark could have teamed up with Reggie and Ewing in his prime if he wanted but they had pride that they want to go down with a legacy that they got their team their and defeated these other greats, mike especially while getting there or GO DOWN TRYING.

Even When the Whole Shaq and Kobe thing was going down I hated it but I couldnít blame Kobe for wanting to be the man on his team when he obviously had the talent. I mean letís be honest when you think of the bull 6 titles who do you think of Scottie, Kukoc? No you think of Michael and how bout the Rockets in 94 95 Olajuwon or the Spurs of 2000ís Duncan.

Basketball is as much a team sport as an individual, itís the reason individuals get sent to the Hall of Fame and not teams.

What do you guys think is this trend is it bound to continue and whatís up with this new school of players?

COBY KARL
07-12-2010, 05:48 PM
I understand what you're saying, it seems that joining other superstars to win doesn't seem right. But alot of people will come here and say that the Lakers still have the most talent than any other team in the league. which i have to agree with.

However the thing that separates Kobe from the Big 3 in Miami is that he is the CLEAR ALPHA MALE on the team. Kinda hard to say for Miami or say a big 3 in between Amare, Melo and CP3.

IDB Josh M
07-12-2010, 06:15 PM
As I always say, winning without honor is an empty victory.

Zefflin
07-12-2010, 06:35 PM
That is why I like Durant so much.

whitemamba33
07-12-2010, 06:37 PM
,,,huh?

Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq, and 2 with a team consisting of Pau, Bynum, Artest, and Odom - two of which have been All-Stars before.

Once things started going "down", he threatened to leave.

He pretty much tried to do what LeBron did, except he wasn't a free agent so he couldn't force it.

Im am a HUGE Kobe fan...but I don't understand this comparison at all.

Raidaz4Life
07-12-2010, 06:41 PM
,,,huh?

Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq, and 2 with a team consisting of Pau, Bynum, Artest, and Odom - two of which have been All-Stars before.

Once things started going "down", he threatened to leave.

He pretty much tried to do what LeBron did, except he wasn't a free agent so he couldn't force it.

Im am a HUGE Kobe fan...but I don't understand this comparison at all.

Kobe never tried to ride somebody else's coattails to a title when he couldn't win on his own. He simply wanted a better team around himself than the FO was giving him. And you cannot compare the teams that Kobe had pre Gasol and Lebron had last year. Kobe simply had no chance in the world at winning which is why he wanted out, Lebron simply wasn't up to the challenge of carrying a team to a championship.

o.reams2425
07-12-2010, 06:51 PM
Its sad that the superstars are going to this trend but on the up side, this will make it extremely hard to catch all of Kobe's records which lebron would have challenged if he had stayed in cleveland.

IDB Josh M
07-12-2010, 07:00 PM
,,,huh?

Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq, and 2 with a team consisting of Pau, Bynum, Artest, and Odom - two of which have been All-Stars before.

Once things started going "down", he threatened to leave.

He pretty much tried to do what LeBron did, except he wasn't a free agent so he couldn't force it.

Im am a HUGE Kobe fan...but I don't understand this comparison at all.

My God, even Kobe fans water down his accomplishments and make Kobe look like a jack-asphalt. Kobe is the type of person has a very demanding personality. He demands alot of himself, and he demands alot from his teammates and the front office he works for. When he saw what he thought was a lack of commitment from the front office, he demanded to be around people who has the same commitment as him. However, he was proven wrong when Lakers front office made spectacular trades and signings. The fact that the Lakers resigned Lamar and Artest last season, and now resigning Fisher this season, Kobe is happy with the lakers.

I have this theory with Kobe, and that is work ethic. God forbid the Lakers lose every single game in a season, or miss out on the championship after making it to the finals, there is little Kobe can complain about if everyone worked their *** off in practice and on the court, but still came up short. When it came to Shaq, Kobe got jealous because he saw first hand how lazy shaq is, but Shaq was the one who got the MVPs and credit. If Shaq showed as much dedication at bettering himself as Kobe did/does, Kobe wouldn't mind playing second fiddle.

This is why Kobe loves Pau. Gasol is smart, knows what he's doing, and has shown to bettering himself. After the soft label was put on Gasol in 2008, what did Gasol do? He hit the gym and tries to get stronger. Kobe appreciates that. But look at Shaq. He couldn't hit a free throw if his life depended on it. And when given the opportunity for a free throw coach, or even working with Kareem, what did Shaq do? He declined.

Edit: I just wanted to add one more thing. When Jordan came back from retirement the first time (after the first 3 peat), he said that the Bulls were Pippen's team. When he saw that they weren't winning the way they were suppose to, Jordan took over Pippen's team, and the rest is as they say ... history. Kobe is so much like Jordan in that regard. Kobe will let you be the leader; he doesn't mind being number 2 to you, but you better win or else he's taking over.

whitemamba33
07-12-2010, 07:02 PM
Kobe never tried to ride somebody else's coattails to a title when he couldn't win on his own. He simply wanted a better team around himself than the FO was giving him. And you cannot compare the teams that Kobe had pre Gasol and Lebron had last year. Kobe simply had no chance in the world at winning which is why he wanted out, Lebron simply wasn't up to the challenge of carrying a team to a championship.

Maybe he never TRIED to ride anybodies coattails..but when he wasn't left with any stars he tried to leave. I'm sorry, I just don't get the point here. You are critisizing LeBron for going to a better team than the Cavs, but not Kobe for wanting to go to a better team than the Lakers?

I understand what the TC is trying to say..but the support is just terrible. It talks about how players who "go down trying" are a dying breed, but both Kobe and Charles either left or tried to leave for better teams. Just makes no sense.

whitemamba33
07-12-2010, 07:11 PM
My God, even Kobe fans water down his accomplishments and make Kobe look like a jack-asphalt. Kobe is the type of person has a very demanding personality. He demands alot of himself, and he demands alot from his teammates and the front office he works for. When he saw what he thought was a lack of commitment from the front office, he demanded to be around people who has the same commitment as him. However, he was proven wrong when Lakers front office made spectacular trades and signings. The fact that the Lakers resigned Lamar and Artest last season, and now resigning Fisher this season, Kobe is happy with the lakers.

I have this theory with Kobe, and that is work ethic. God forbid the Lakers lose every single game in a season, or miss out on the championship after making it to the finals, there is little Kobe can complain about if everyone worked their *** off in practice and on the court, but still came up short. When it came to Shaq, Kobe got jealous because he saw first hand how lazy shaq is, but Shaq was the one who got the MVPs and credit. If Shaq showed as much dedication at bettering himself as Kobe did/does, Kobe wouldn't mind playing second fiddle.

This is why Kobe loves Pau. Gasol is smart, knows what he's doing, and has shown to bettering himself. After the soft label was put on Gasol in 2008, what did Gasol do? He hit the gym and tries to get stronger. Kobe appreciates that. But look at Shaq. He couldn't hit a free throw if his life depended on it. And when given the opportunity for a free throw coach, or even working with Kareem, what did Shaq do? He declined.

Middle part is useless..so i'll ignore that.

You can make the same "demanding" argument for LeBron. He clearly wants to win. He clearly hates loosing. While the Lakers got Gasol and Boston got Garnett and Ray Allen, Cleveland never brought in a star player who could actually help LeBron in the playoffs. So he went to a team that is commited to bringing in help...Heat resigned Wade and brought in Bosh.

And if Kobe had a problem with an uncommited star center winning awards that the uncommited star center deserved, than that is a knock on Kobe and not on anybody else.

Raidaz4Life
07-12-2010, 07:15 PM
Maybe he never TRIED to ride anybodies coattails..but when he wasn't left with any stars he tried to leave. I'm sorry, I just don't get the point here. You are critisizing LeBron for going to a better team than the Cavs, but not Kobe for wanting to go to a better team than the Lakers?

I understand what the TC is trying to say..but the support is just terrible. It talks about how players who "go down trying" are a dying breed, but both Kobe and Charles either left or tried to leave for better teams. Just makes no sense.

I don't think you understand what is being said here. Kobe wanted a team that COULD win, he did not want to waste his years playing for a team playing for the final seed in the western conference. He was on a team whose only other serviceable player was Mr Inconsistent Lamar Odom. Thats it. Lebron was on a team that had the best record in the league two years in a row. If Kobe was on this team and then couldn't carry his team to a title and decided to leave.... then I might agree but Kobe wanted to go to a Bulls team whose best player was Deng! He didn't demand a trade to the spurs or the suns, he simply wanted a team with solid role players. That is completely different then looking to jump onto another player's "dream team" and winning as a sidekick.

whitemamba33
07-12-2010, 07:29 PM
I don't think you understand what is being said here. Kobe wanted a team that COULD win, he did not want to waste his years playing for a team playing for the final seed in the western conference. He was on a team whose only other serviceable player was Mr Inconsistent Lamar Odom. Thats it. Lebron was on a team that had the best record in the league two years in a row. If Kobe was on this team and then couldn't carry his team to a title and decided to leave.... then I might agree but Kobe wanted to go to a Bulls team whose best player was Deng! He didn't demand a trade to the spurs or the suns, he simply wanted a team with solid role players. That is completely different then looking to jump onto another player's "dream team" and winning as a sidekick.

...so he didn't want to "go down trying".

Thanks, you clearly now understand my point.


Also, lets not forget - it's a very flawed comparison in the first place. Kobe wanted a trade. LeBron was an UFA. You try to make it sound noble that Kobe wanted to go to the Bulls...but honestly, what were his choices? With a trade, teams would have had to completly gut their rosters to send the necessary players to the Lakers...and really, no decent team was prepared for that. And on top of that, the Lakers would have had to be willing to welcome the trade. Teams have been preparing for over a year for the "LeBron sweepstakes"...so he had MANY choices. He made the one that best secured his chance to win a championship.

Mr. NBA
07-12-2010, 07:35 PM
the reason i think Kobe is the last of a dying breed is because you don't see anymore finesse players like Kobe up to that level of superstar status. More of today's NBA players are reaching superstar level status with frankly "brute physical strength". Players like LeBron James is on top of that list. Reaching superstar status with "Bruth Strength" unlike Kobe or MJ who are more finesse players than i see strength. Are we seeing the last of a dying breed? Absolutely. Finesse is dying. Players like Pau Gasol who are skilled big men with Finesse, Hakeem Olajuwon = finesse, tim duncan = finesse. Guys are getting bigger and the finesse part of basketball is dying.

Raidaz4Life
07-12-2010, 07:36 PM
...so he didn't want to "go down trying".

Thanks, you clearly now understand my point.


Also, lets not forget - it's a very flawed comparison in the first place. Kobe wanted a trade. LeBron was an UFA. You try to make it sound noble that Kobe wanted to go to the Bulls...but honestly, what were his choices? With a trade, teams would have had to completly gut their rosters to send the necessary players to the Lakers...and really, no decent team was prepared for that. And on top of that, the Lakers would have had to be willing to welcome the trade. Teams have been preparing for over a year for the "LeBron sweepstakes"...so he had MANY choices. He made the one that best secured his chance to win a championship.

There is a difference between going down trying and going down without a chance. I do agree about your point that Kobe was being traded and Lebron was a FA, but at the same time anyone who knows Kobe, knows he wants to carry his own team to a title. He could have given into Shaq and probably won a couple more including the 2004 title but instead he wanted to be the main guy and not in somebody else's shadow. He is a true competitor, Lebron is not.

enserio
07-12-2010, 07:53 PM
I get what everyone here is trying to say (or at least I think I do), but I agree that the two situations are completely different and don't merit a comparison. Do I think that there is something orchestrated and wrong with two superstars and a star teaming up? Not really. The Celts did it (granted their stars were older, but they still won it), and most other teams would say our trade for Pau was orchestrated robbery. Do I think that Wade, LBJ, and Bosh know this is what they need to win? Sure. They know if they want to beat the Lake Show, they better team up with 3 and not just 2.

David017
07-12-2010, 08:06 PM
I get what everyone here is trying to say (or at least I think I do), but I agree that the two situations are completely different and don't merit a comparison. Do I think that there is something orchestrated and wrong with two superstars and a star teaming up? Not really. The Celts did it (granted their stars were older, but they still won it), and most other teams would say our trade for Pau was orchestrated robbery. Do I think that Wade, LBJ, and Bosh know this is what they need to win? Sure. They know if they want to beat the Lake Show, they better team up with 3 and not just 2.


Marc Gasol is a beast. people think that because they hate the lakers period

whitemamba33
07-12-2010, 08:11 PM
There is a difference between going down trying and going down without a chance. I do agree about your point that Kobe was being traded and Lebron was a FA, but at the same time anyone who knows Kobe, knows he wants to carry his own team to a title. He could have given into Shaq and probably won a couple more including the 2004 title but instead he wanted to be the main guy and not in somebody else's shadow. He is a true competitor, Lebron is not.

Is there really a "chance" Lebron could have won the trophy with the Cavs next year? Both Boston and the Magic would have still been better than them in the East, and the Lakers would have been better than them in the West. It took the Lakers 3 years to surround Kobe with a star so they could back to the Finals. LeBron was with the Cavs for 7 years and they NEVER surrounded him with a player as good as Pau Gasol. I'm sorry, but the same "lack of commitment" argument easily applies here.

Kobe is a true competitor for not coexisting with Shaq and waiting until the Lakers got another star to win another championship? Between kobe wanting to be the man, and Kobe being jelous of an "uncommited" Shaq winning awards..you aren't really painting the prettiest pictures of the Black Mamba.

David017
07-12-2010, 08:16 PM
is there a difference between being a close to .500 team and number one seed two straight years?

whitemamba33
07-12-2010, 08:16 PM
This thread is stupid anyways. Kevin Durant and Rudy Gasy JUST finished signing long term contracts to play in small market teams that probably won't be competitive for a few years at least. The whole "dying breed" thing is a little much.

whitemamba33
07-12-2010, 08:17 PM
is there a difference between being a close to .500 team and number one seed two straight years?

If you are asking me, than my answer is no if neither wins a championship.

David017
07-12-2010, 08:18 PM
durant is a good kid

whitemamba33
07-12-2010, 08:19 PM
durant is a good kid

...yes he is.

The kind of kid that makes a "dying breed" thread like this one pointless.

David017
07-12-2010, 08:25 PM
If you are asking me, than my answer is no if neither wins a championship.

I think you are being a little stubborn on the fact. no one thought lebron couldn't win in cle. we have been lead to believe for two years Kobe and lebron would happen in. I am on the side that believe this trio planned this for years and took the whole basketball world into this circus

whitemamba33
07-12-2010, 08:37 PM
I think you are being a little stubborn on the fact. no one thought lebron couldn't win in cle. we have been lead to believe for two years Kobe and lebron would happen in. I am on the side that believe this trio planned this for years and took the whole basketball world into this circus

I feel bad for anyone who DID think Cleveland was going to win this year. They lost to Boston, than easily Orlando, than took some steps sideways this season - BIG SURPRISE, they lost again. Was I supposed to expect a different result from the same forumla? I didn't, and like I said, I feel sorry for anybody who did - because they clearly don't know anything about playoff basketball.

Lakergirl24
07-12-2010, 08:43 PM
That is why I like Durant so much.

Same here. I think this guy has what it takes to be a special leader and player. He seems like an extremely hard worker who wants to be great and doesnt care about sponsors and appearances, etc. Just like Kobe. But I see where the OP is coming from. The game has changed a lot over the last 5-10 years. I think the young players are given too much before they have proven anything (like shoe deals, etc.). We never saw any of this free agency circus in the 90's. Its taken away from the game in some ways.

Raidaz4Life
07-12-2010, 08:45 PM
Is there really a "chance" Lebron could have won the trophy with the Cavs next year? Both Boston and the Magic would have still been better than them in the East, and the Lakers would have been better than them in the West. It took the Lakers 3 years to surround Kobe with a star so they could back to the Finals. LeBron was with the Cavs for 7 years and they NEVER surrounded him with a player as good as Pau Gasol. I'm sorry, but the same "lack of commitment" argument easily applies here.

Kobe is a true competitor for not coexisting with Shaq and waiting until the Lakers got another star to win another championship? Between kobe wanting to be the man, and Kobe being jelous of an "uncommited" Shaq winning awards..you aren't really painting the prettiest pictures of the Black Mamba.

Dude are you serious, I don't understand how you feel a team can have the BEST RECORD IN THE LEAGUE yet still have NO CHANCE at winning the title? That makes no sense at all, last year it wasn't even close.


And I don't understand what Gasol, has to do with this. Yes Kobe lucked into Gasol but that doesn't mean Kobe told the FO "all star or nothing". Kobe simply wanted a solid team.

Lakers Roster
Kwame Brown
Andrew Bynum (a very young one)
Brian Cook
Maurice Evans
Jordan Farmar
Aaron McKie
Chris Mihm
Lamar Odom
Smush Parker
Ronny Turiaf
Sasha Vujacic
Luke Walton
Shammond Williams


Cavs Roster
Jamario Moon
Mo Williams
Shaq
Delonte West
Big Z
Varejao
Telfair
Hickson
Jamison
Daniel Gibson
Daniel Green
Leon Powe
Anthony Parker


Those two teams arent even remotely comparable. One is clearly a solid core to put around a player while the other is straight garbage outside of Odom and Bynum a few years down the road. I mean Kobe had a LEGITIMATE gripe. Lebron simply could not handle the pressure of LEADING a team. No Lebron didn't have a player as good as Gasol but Jamison and Mo are both former all stars and make a very solid core not to mention Varejao who was widely being considering as a top DPOY candidate. And plenty of size in Shaq and Big Z...

The point is that Kobe always wanted to win being the man. He wanted to fight his way to the top and overcome criticism. All he wanted was a chance to do it on his own without being overshadowed by somebody else. Up until 08 everyone was saying Kobe would never be an all time great because he could not win without Shaq and you have got to imagine that ate away at him. It is part of his competitive nature, he wouldn't have gone from being in Shaq's shadow to jumping into somebody else's. Lebron went to Wade's town with Bosh knowing he would be playing behind Wade and he was okay with that. If he had gone to NY and had Amare then we wouldn't be having this conversation, but he didn't.

Blackryder45
07-12-2010, 08:48 PM
Maybe he never TRIED to ride anybodies coattails..but when he wasn't left with any stars he tried to leave. I'm sorry, I just don't get the point here. You are critisizing LeBron for going to a better team than the Cavs, but not Kobe for wanting to go to a better team than the Lakers?

I understand what the TC is trying to say..but the support is just terrible. It talks about how players who "go down trying" are a dying breed, but both Kobe and Charles either left or tried to leave for better teams. Just makes no sense.

Pure different when Kobe tried to leave he did not ask to go to spurs pistons or any of the proven champs if u rem he said chi town was his first option and if lebron had went to the knicks or bulls I wouldn't have a problem it's the fact he needs a superstar that's already won a ship

Magic Bean Fury
07-12-2010, 08:49 PM
whitemamba33 doesn't understand that dying breed means there are still some around but less are in existence. Durant is one legitimate star and gay is not. Didn't see you name many others.

Magic Bean Fury
07-12-2010, 08:52 PM
Also,
whitemamba33 must have made an awful lot of money betting against Cleveland since he knew exactly what was going to happen.

whitemamba33
07-12-2010, 08:55 PM
Dude are you serious, I don't understand how you feel a team can have the BEST RECORD IN THE LEAGUE yet still have NO CHANCE at winning the title? That makes no sense at all, last year it wasn't even close.


And I don't understand what Gasol, has to do with this. Yes Kobe lucked into Gasol but that doesn't mean Kobe told the FO "all star or nothing". Kobe simply wanted a solid team.

Lakers Roster
Kwame Brown
Andrew Bynum (a very young one)
Brian Cook
Maurice Evans
Jordan Farmar
Aaron McKie
Chris Mihm
Lamar Odom
Smush Parker
Ronny Turiaf
Sasha Vujacic
Luke Walton
Shammond Williams


Cavs Roster
Jamario Moon
Mo Williams
Shaq
Delonte West
Big Z
Varejao
Telfair
Hickson
Jamison
Daniel Gibson
Daniel Green
Leon Powe
Anthony Parker


Those two teams arent even remotely comparable. One is clearly a solid core to put around a player while the other is straight garbage outside of Odom and Bynum a few years down the road. I mean Kobe had a LEGITIMATE gripe. Lebron simply could not handle the pressure of LEADING a team. No Lebron didn't have a player as good as Gasol but Jamison and Mo are both former all stars and make a very solid core not to mention Varejao who was widely being considering as a top DPOY candidate. And plenty of size in Shaq and Big Z...

The point is that Kobe always wanted to win being the man. He wanted to fight his way to the top and overcome criticism. All he wanted was a chance to do it on his own without being overshadowed by somebody else. Lebron went to Wade's town with Bosh knowing he would be playing behind Wade and he was okay with that. If he had gone to NY and had Amare then we wouldn't be having this conversation, but he didn't.

Regular season =/= the NBA playoffs.

LA_Raiders
07-12-2010, 08:59 PM
Yep, We are starting a clown show...

Too bad, Stern is letting all this happen...

whitemamba33
07-12-2010, 09:04 PM
whitemamba33 doesn't understand that dying breed means there are still some around but less are in existence. Durant is one legitimate star and gay is not. Didn't see you name many others.

lol the only legitimate example given to prove such a theory was Reggie Miller. Kobe tried to leave, and Charles left the Suns to go for a championship with the Rockets. So you are going to sit here and tell me that one star isn't enough to discount a theory that only had one example given in the first place?

And you have done an excellent job in pointint out the major flaw with this thread: The first part of this comparison involves an era where stars from which have either retired or aren't far off. The second part involves mainly players who haven't had the chance to prove themselves a star (Rudy Gay), or players who haven't been around enough to prove their loyalty. This conversation MIGHT be valid in 5 years or so...MIGHT.

whitemamba33
07-12-2010, 09:05 PM
Yep, We are starting a clown show...

Too bad, Stern is letting all this happen...

too bad it is within the rules, and has always been?

whitemamba33
07-12-2010, 09:06 PM
Also,
whitemamba33 must have made an awful lot of money betting against Cleveland since he knew exactly what was going to happen.

Yes...actualy - I did.

Allow me to help you make some money for yourself: In general, teams that do nothing to improve in the playoffs, probably won't win in the playoffs.

Tree Rollins
07-12-2010, 09:08 PM
Stars with Balls. Kobe is that man.

Raidaz4Life
07-12-2010, 10:04 PM
Regular season =/= the NBA playoffs.

Funny how the Cavs are the only team in NBA history to have the best regular season record in the league without winning a title... So clearly that's not the case.

Anilyzer
07-12-2010, 10:06 PM
Basketball is a total team sport; teamwork always wins out over individual star power in basketball. So, solving the equation of how to win an NBA championship isn't as simple as just grouping a few "superstars" together on one team. Still, it is kind of cool to see, and we, especially, as Laker fans, shouldn't hate on it, because we've obviously had some super teams here in LA... although the Lakers are also well known for being the best at evaluating, selecting, developing and taking care of talent.

Anyway, the CP3/Stoudemire/Melo combo doesn't bother me at all. It's not like any of those guys are a Kobe/Bird/Magic/Chamberlain/Malone type of player. Actually, in Miami, it is really the pairing of Wade and Lebron which is very compelling -- Lebron is obviously a once in a decade type of talent, and Wade is possibly the 3rd best player in the league. Lebron is the crown jewel, and pairing him with Wade is very compelling. Bosh is another notch down from those two... It's like Lebron, Wade... and then Bosh. Pairing Lebron with Wade is a great idea and we shouldn't hold it against Lebron that he wants to play with another great player. Magic had Worthy, Magic had Kareem, Bird had McHale, Jordan had Pippen, etc etc. Nothing wrong with it whatsoever.

whitemamba33
07-12-2010, 11:35 PM
Funny how the Cavs are the only team in NBA history to have the best regular season record in the league without winning a title... So clearly that's not the case.

Sorry if I read this wrong (I kind of hope I did - for your sake)..but are you saying that the Cavs are the only team to not win the NBA title in the season where they had the best regular season record?

Without even spending a second thinking...Miami, 04/05 Spurs, 03/04 Pistons.

The only other possible meaning for your comment would be that the Cavs are the only team to have had the best record and NEVER win a championship at any point in their franchise history, which would be the absolutle stupidest fact I've ever heard. By that logic, a team could have had the best record in the 70's but not have won a title, and then won a title in 2010 - and that would serve as proof that the regular season = the playoffs?

I dunno..I think either way you are screwed on this one, so pick your poison. Either you have your NBA history wrong, or you are using the worst logic I've ever seen here.

KillaInstinct24
07-12-2010, 11:38 PM
Sorry if I read this wrong (I kind of hope I did - for your sake)..but are you saying that the Cavs are the only team to not win the NBA title in the season where they had the best regular season record?

Without even spending a second thinking...Miami, 04/05 Spurs, 03/04 Pistons.

The only other possible meaning for your comment would be that the Cavs are the only team to have had the best record and NEVER win a championship at any point in their franchise history, which would be the absolutle stupidest fact I've ever heard. By that logic, a team could have had the best record in the 70's but not have won a title, and then won a title in 2010 - and that would serve as proof that the regular season = the playoffs?

I dunno..I think either way you are screwed on this one, so pick your poison. Either you have your NBA history wrong, or you are using the worst logic I've ever seen here.

maybe he meant it differently bc those spurs n pistons teams both won rings. and didnt the 04 pistons beat us? so yeah

New Power House
07-12-2010, 11:48 PM
The Godfather is very upset over his prodigy! Watch this!
www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2010/07/12/stern_on_decision.nba/?ls=iref:nbahpt1

Tymathee
07-12-2010, 11:49 PM
you're totally off the mark here, it's been done since the 50's when west, chamberlain and i forget the other guy but its the Laker who when KObe hit 81 he broke his Laker record, i thikn that's bigger than anything today, 3 bonafide hall of famer.

Then there's Magic, Jabbar and Worthy (jabbar was traded to the lakers magic and worthy drafted)

Kobe, Shaq, Malone and Payton
Hakeem, Barkley and Drexler

etc
etc
etc

it's been done before, it will be done again, calm down.

New Power House
07-13-2010, 12:24 AM
you're totally off the mark here, it's been done since the 50's when west, chamberlain and i forget the other guy but its the Laker who when KObe hit 81 he broke his Laker record, i thikn that's bigger than anything today, 3 bonafide hall of famer.

Then there's Magic, Jabbar and Worthy (jabbar was traded to the lakers magic and worthy drafted)

Kobe, Shaq, Malone and Payton
Hakeem, Barkley and Drexler

etc
etc
etc

it's been done before, it will be done again, calm down.

I think that the commissioner had explained better. It is the way it has been done.:facepalm: The other deals were at least more "normal"kind of deals. This one smelled rat the whole time!:facepalm: "The scary Decision":facepalm: :speechless: I better join forces with those two or I will never make it!:facepalm: The King!!

CalJo1617
07-13-2010, 01:36 AM
as much as we can hate, those 3 guys in miami saw the opportunity and took it. no trend, no dying breeds, they saw what the celtics did (although the big 3 were up there in age) and will try to duplicate it. stars playing among stars should not be the center point of winning championships. the surrounding pieces is what's crucial. rondo, perk, posey and leon powe were instrumental when boston won their title. same goes for us with d-fish and lamar (has star-quality but not a star).

miami will eventually be a threat coming out of the east but the remaining pieces they will add in the next few weeks will be just as important as putting those 3 guys together.

TheGsw
07-13-2010, 01:54 AM
Kobe=goat

jaji10
07-13-2010, 02:25 AM
whats wrong here is that the current 2 time mvp, mr. james, joined another team with a legit superstar mr. wade.....guys wade is not an all star, he is a superstar!! and James is an mvp which means the best player in the nba, he should lead his own team not join another team so it will be easy for him to win a championship... the harder the championship, the sweeter it is to achieve.... stop comparing it to garnett, pierce and allen, garnett is the only superstar... + they were already old when they teamed up just like hakeem, drexler and sir charles... suparstars james wade and all star bosh are at the peak of their game, they should be leading their own teams like what mj, shaq( b4 the dominant kobe), ewing, robinson, hakeem, bird(definitely the superstar of the 80s celtics),magic,charles etc... did in their peak time of their careers!!!

The Prodigy
07-13-2010, 02:28 AM
I know what/how you Lakers/Kobe fans feel because I am a Heat/Wade fan. I'm happy for my team and Wade because they get to compete at the highest level, but I'm dissapointed for his legacy. He'll still be an all time great but I'd rather him be remembered as one of the best. I've watched a lot of basketball and done reasearch and I honestly feel Wade is that good. I thought he would end his career being one of the top 3 shooting guard ever, He still has a chance but a slim one. I'm happy we got Lebron and Bosh but, I think deep down that I would rather just get Wade and one of the other for the Legacy purpose and purpose of Competetion.

jaji10
07-13-2010, 02:44 AM
[QUOTE=The Prodigy;14112453]I know what/how you Lakers/Kobe fans feel because I am a Heat/Wade fan. I'm happy for my team and Wade because they get to compete at the highest level, but I'm dissapointed for his legacy. He'll still be an all time great but I'd rather him be remembered as one of the best. I've watched a lot of basketball and done reasearch and I honestly feel Wade is that good. I thought he would end his career being one of the top 3 shooting guard ever, He still has a chance but a slim one. I'm happy we got Lebron and Bosh but, I think deep down that I would rather just get Wade and one of the other for the Legacy purpose and purpose of Competetion.[/QUOTe

exactly!!! Wade and lebron should be leading their own teams, competing with each other and putting up ridiculous numbers, as a fan this is what we want to see!!! you cant compare this to kobe coz he got pau, pau is not a superstar, he's just a 2nd tier player!!! Superstars like wade lebron kobe chris paul duncan d.howard durant should be battling each other not joining each other to make it easy for them!!!

Raidaz4Life
07-13-2010, 02:49 AM
Sorry if I read this wrong (I kind of hope I did - for your sake)..but are you saying that the Cavs are the only team to not win the NBA title in the season where they had the best regular season record?

Without even spending a second thinking...Miami, 04/05 Spurs, 03/04 Pistons.

The only other possible meaning for your comment would be that the Cavs are the only team to have had the best record and NEVER win a championship at any point in their franchise history, which would be the absolutle stupidest fact I've ever heard. By that logic, a team could have had the best record in the 70's but not have won a title, and then won a title in 2010 - and that would serve as proof that the regular season = the playoffs?

I dunno..I think either way you are screwed on this one, so pick your poison. Either you have your NBA history wrong, or you are using the worst logic I've ever seen here.

I forgot to put in back to back seasons


And not only did they not win a championship, they didn't even make a finals appearance in that time. It is completely absurd to suggest that regular season wins have nothing to do with playoff wins. Just because teams choke does not mean that they were not built to win in the playoffs.

Anilyzer
07-13-2010, 04:24 AM
I think that the commissioner had explained better. It is the way it has been done.:facepalm: The other deals were at least more "normal"kind of deals. This one smelled rat the whole time!:facepalm: "The scary Decision":facepalm: :speechless: I better join forces with those two or I will never make it!:facepalm: The King!!

I don't know why people think it is so "bad" or "ratty" that Lebron apparently planned to play on a team with two of his good friends who are also great NBA superstars. Lebron was a free agent... free, absolutely free, to do whatever he wanted. Why not go down to Miami, with the nice warm weather, and get totally paid, in a big market, super famous, while playing with his best friends? Why not? Basketball is a game, after all, believe it or not. It is supposed to be fun. All these people in Cleveland and elsewhere who are complaining seem to be forgetting that players like Lebron play because they love the game, not to get cranky owners rich. In any case he is making the entire NBA richer anyway, whatever he does. I will buy some tickets if I get a chance, I'd love to see that team play up close.

Anilyzer
07-13-2010, 04:27 AM
I know what/how you Lakers/Kobe fans feel because I am a Heat/Wade fan. I'm happy for my team and Wade because they get to compete at the highest level, but I'm dissapointed for his legacy. He'll still be an all time great but I'd rather him be remembered as one of the best. I've watched a lot of basketball and done reasearch and I honestly feel Wade is that good. I thought he would end his career being one of the top 3 shooting guard ever, He still has a chance but a slim one. I'm happy we got Lebron and Bosh but, I think deep down that I would rather just get Wade and one of the other for the Legacy purpose and purpose of Competetion.

1. You are underestimating Lebron's potential greatness

2. You are also underestimating the challenges that Lebron and Wade will face, not only against the Lakers but also against Eastern teams

Before you start saying that Lebron took the "easy" way out, consider that the Lakers are probably going to spank Miami pretty good

MJL
07-13-2010, 04:48 AM
As I always say, winning without honor is an empty victory.

Words of wisdom!:clap:

tredigs
07-13-2010, 05:44 AM
1. You are underestimating Lebron's potential greatness

2. You are also underestimating the challenges that Lebron and Wade will face, not only against the Lakers but also against Eastern teams

Before you start saying that Lebron took the "easy" way out, consider that the Lakers are probably going to spank Miami pretty good

You and WhiteMamba are the only ones offering objective, smart commentary here -- so good on ya.

Only thing I'd take issue with was WhiteMamba's comment that the Thunder are still years away from being contenders (they are at most 1 year away, and may contend this season - especially if Bynum is hurt - which let's be honest is at best 50/50 in any given year).

Also, while I agree that this is still far from a cakewalk (and that's if there are no injuries), there's no way that the Lakers are going to spank Miami. At this point I'd still consider them the favorites, but after (and depending on who) the Heat sign at center for the vet min (Z and Shaq come to mind), then they immediately become near complete and incredibly difficult to beat. It would take a performance of the ages to take out a roster of:

PG: vet min (Jason Williams?) / Chalmers
SG: Wade / vet min signing (Raja Bell?)
SF: LBJ / M. Miller
PF: Bosh / Haslem
C: Vet min (Shaq?) / Anthony

^If that's how it pans out and they stay healthy- Nobody "spanks" them, ever. But they still need to figure something out for the C spot going forward.

Frezhnitz
07-13-2010, 01:23 PM
Agree.

whitemamba33
07-13-2010, 03:01 PM
I forgot to put in back to back seasons


And not only did they not win a championship, they didn't even make a finals appearance in that time. It is completely absurd to suggest that regular season wins have nothing to do with playoff wins. Just because teams choke does not mean that they were not built to win in the playoffs.

The fact that Boston slacked off in the regular season and than went all the way to game 7 of the NBA Finals is a PERFECT example of the difference between regular season and playoff basketball. There is much more pressure, it is much more intense, and every team is playing at full strength - as opposed to saving up for the playoffs. Cleveland wasn't built for the playoffs. I'll also reference the Dallas fiasco. It's much easier to get an impressive reg season record when you don't have to consistantly deal with a matchup that doesn't suit your playing style.


ALSO:
Seasons in the last 10 years where the #1 team won:
1999-2000 Lakers
2002-2003 Spurs
2007-2008 Boston Celtics

I'm sorry...but there doesn't seem to be a strong correlation here.

whitemamba33
07-13-2010, 03:05 PM
You and WhiteMamba are the only ones offering objective, smart commentary here -- so good on ya.

Only thing I'd take issue with was WhiteMamba's comment that the Thunder are still years away from being contenders (they are at most 1 year away, and may contend this season - especially if Bynum is hurt - which let's be honest is at best 50/50 in any given year).

Also, while I agree that this is still far from a cakewalk (and that's if there are no injuries), there's no way that the Lakers are going to spank Miami. At this point I'd still consider them the favorites, but after (and depending on who) the Heat sign at center for the vet min (Z and Shaq come to mind), then they immediately become near complete and incredibly difficult to beat. It would take a performance of the ages to take out a roster of:

PG: vet min (Jason Williams?) / Chalmers
SG: Wade / vet min signing (Raja Bell?)
SF: LBJ / M. Miller
PF: Bosh / Haslem
C: Vet min (Shaq?) / Anthony

^If that's how it pans out and they stay healthy- Nobody "spanks" them, ever. But they still need to figure something out for the C spot going forward.

I don't know...I think they were a tough matchup for the older, slower Lakers, but I'd have to see how they do against the Nuggets and a couple other teams before I consider them a contender next year. Best case scenario is they get to the NBA Finals next year...but I really don't believe they can beat the Heat. So I still think they are a few years off.

PLAYERS FAN
07-13-2010, 03:14 PM
I know what/how you Lakers/Kobe fans feel because I am a Heat/Wade fan. I'm happy for my team and Wade because they get to compete at the highest level, but I'm dissapointed for his legacy. He'll still be an all time great but I'd rather him be remembered as one of the best. I've watched a lot of basketball and done reasearch and I honestly feel Wade is that good. I thought he would end his career being one of the top 3 shooting guard ever, He still has a chance but a slim one. I'm happy we got Lebron and Bosh but, I think deep down that I would rather just get Wade and one of the other for the Legacy purpose and purpose of Competetion.

I can't imagine Kobe and a prime Tmac playing together in their!

Raidaz4Life
07-13-2010, 03:31 PM
The fact that Boston slacked off in the regular season and than went all the way to game 7 of the NBA Finals is a PERFECT example of the difference between regular season and playoff basketball. There is much more pressure, it is much more intense, and every team is playing at full strength - as opposed to saving up for the playoffs. Cleveland wasn't built for the playoffs. I'll also reference the Dallas fiasco. It's much easier to get an impressive reg season record when you don't have to consistantly deal with a matchup that doesn't suit your playing style.


ALSO:
Seasons in the last 10 years where the #1 team won:
1999-2000 Lakers
2002-2003 Spurs
2007-2008 Boston Celtics

I'm sorry...but there doesn't seem to be a strong correlation here.

But the Celtics weren't even a bad match up. I will agree that Orlando was a bad matchup for them the year before but there is no way that you can argue the Celtics were a bad match up for them. They were simply outplayed in that series by an older team that wanted it more. The Cavs should have easily won that series but they didn't and there is a reason for that.

The Thunder were a bad matchup for the Lakers, but the Lakers pulled through anyways.

The Celtics were in no way a bad match up for the Cavs. The Cavs were just out played and out coached,.

Tymathee
07-13-2010, 04:02 PM
i'm not worriedd about Miami at all. There are a lot of great players who were snuffed cuz of another great player on their team and it will happen here.

Here's the issue though, Lebron NEEDS the ball in his hand to be effective. He has no set shot, he can't post up and he doesn't work off cutters very well (or wont) so, he's going to have to be the man in Miami but wait! It's d-wade's team, the team he got a ship for soooo waht's wade going to do? be pippen? thats the b est he can do, I see a significant drop in lebrons points a tick up in rebounds and a drop in assists but his steals and blocks go up, he may be dpoy and be the first player in many years to get 2 & 2.

Wade will get at least 25
Bosh will score more than Lebron.

whitemamba33
07-13-2010, 04:10 PM
But the Celtics weren't even a bad match up. I will agree that Orlando was a bad matchup for them the year before but there is no way that you can argue the Celtics were a bad match up for them. They were simply outplayed in that series by an older team that wanted it more. The Cavs should have easily won that series but they didn't and there is a reason for that.

The Thunder were a bad matchup for the Lakers, but the Lakers pulled through anyways.

The Celtics were in no way a bad match up for the Cavs. The Cavs were just out played and out coached,.

Ok...so now you are telling me that a Cavs team didn't want it enough and the coach wasn't good enough...which brings us back about 24 hours to why LeBron was right to leave a team that wasn't commited to winning. I'm glad you are finally seeing what I tried to explain yesterday.

Raidaz4Life
07-13-2010, 04:15 PM
Ok...so now you are telling me that a Cavs team didn't want it enough and the coach wasn't good enough...which brings us back about 24 hours to why LeBron was right to leave a team that wasn't commited to winning. I'm glad you are finally seeing what I tried to explain yesterday.

And a large part of that is on Lebron. He easily had a team good enough to win it all but he bailed. Even after getting a new head coach. The Cavs were committed to winning, Lebron was just pissed that it wasn't the cake walk that he felt it should be. Maybe if Lebron was half the leader that Kobe was, then he wouldn't have had the problem of an unmotivated team.


All I am saying is that Kobe never looked for an easy way to a title, he was more interested in proving himself as the best than anything else. Lebron does not have that motivation. Which is why Kobe is the last of a dying breed.

/thread

strokeman
07-13-2010, 04:30 PM
Maybe he never TRIED to ride anybodies coattails..but when he wasn't left with any stars he tried to leave. I'm sorry, I just don't get the point here. You are critisizing LeBron for going to a better team than the Cavs, but not Kobe for wanting to go to a better team than the Lakers?

I understand what the TC is trying to say..but the support is just terrible. It talks about how players who "go down trying" are a dying breed, but both Kobe and Charles either left or tried to leave for better teams. Just makes no sense.

Lakers traded shaq and at the time didnít get much value in return then trader Caron Bultler and didnít get much in return!

Kobe simply said LA is rebuilding and thatís not what he was there for, he wanted to win and if they werenít willing to get the pieces around him to do that than he wanted to be traded! kobe could have forced a trade! His contract was setup so that he could only be traded if he agreed, meaning he would be able to pick his team! When LA traded for Pau kobe first statement was to coment the FO by saying they had done their part now I have to go out there and do my part and win! :clap:

The Cave FO put a new lineup around LBJ for the pass 3 years, they were good enough to man handle almost every team during the season but fall short in the playoffs! Thatís where you look at the leader not FO, they did their job judging by you have the best record 2 years back to back! :facepalm:

So I say Kobe is the last of a dying breed!

KD still a pup but heís getting there too! :clap:

whitemamba33
07-13-2010, 07:37 PM
And a large part of that is on Lebron. He easily had a team good enough to win it all but he bailed. Even after getting a new head coach. The Cavs were committed to winning, Lebron was just pissed that it wasn't the cake walk that he felt it should be. Maybe if Lebron was half the leader that Kobe was, then he wouldn't have had the problem of an unmotivated team.


All I am saying is that Kobe never looked for an easy way to a title, he was more interested in proving himself as the best than anything else. Lebron does not have that motivation. Which is why Kobe is the last of a dying breed.

/thread

How is LeBron not a leader? You're not with him in the lockerroom. You aren't handing out water bottles at practice. You aren't in the team huddles. You don't know what he does, you don't know what he says, you don't know who he inspires. Please, if there is one thing you should have learned about me now, is that if you say something stupid without backing it up, i'm going to call you on it. I've done it enough times already.

It's not about not being motivated. Are you kidding me? The Cavs team is full of players that have never gotten a championship. Do you really think motivation is the problem? Do you think that Mo Williams just didn't feel like "stepping up" two years in a row? He just doesn't have the ability. Why? Because the regular season =/= the playoffs...around again we come.

I don't see how bringing in a recently-fired head coach from a team that never went as far as the Cavs have is supposed to convince LeBron to stay. Maybe it was a small step in the right direction if LeBron felt that he wanted to play under Scott...but I can't pretend i'm surprised that it wasn't enough to convince him to stay.

I'm guessing you probably have an excuse for Kobe quitting in the playoffs a few years back...am I right?

Kobe never had to look for an easy way to the title because he pretty much always had it. He was with the most dominant player in the game when they won their titles. And than they landed Pau Gasol to get the next two. The only time where Kobe would have had to go "looking for a tite" would have been during the years between Shaq and Gasol....and even in that small period he threatened to leave lol. Something tells me you aren't thinking these posts through.

LeBron not having the motivation is why Kobe is the last of a dying breed? So no players after Kobe Bryant are going to be motivated to win? Sigh....your post is just full of gems like this.

This probably should be /thread for you.

whitemamba33
07-13-2010, 07:39 PM
Lakers traded shaq and at the time didnít get much value in return then trader Caron Bultler and didnít get much in return!

Kobe simply said LA is rebuilding and thatís not what he was there for, he wanted to win and if they werenít willing to get the pieces around him to do that than he wanted to be traded! kobe could have forced a trade! His contract was setup so that he could only be traded if he agreed, meaning he would be able to pick his team! When LA traded for Pau kobe first statement was to coment the FO by saying they had done their part now I have to go out there and do my part and win! :clap:

The Cave FO put a new lineup around LBJ for the pass 3 years, they were good enough to man handle almost every team during the season but fall short in the playoffs! Thatís where you look at the leader not FO, they did their job judging by you have the best record 2 years back to back! :facepalm:

So I say Kobe is the last of a dying breed!

KD still a pup but heís getting there too! :clap:


That doesn't mean that he could force a trade.

Raidaz4Life
07-13-2010, 08:04 PM
How is LeBron not a leader? You're not with him in the lockerroom. You aren't handing out water bottles at practice. You aren't in the team huddles. You don't know what he does, you don't know what he says, you don't know who he inspires. Please, if there is one thing you should have learned about me now, is that if you say something stupid without backing it up, i'm going to call you on it. I've done it enough times already.

It's not about not being motivated. Are you kidding me? The Cavs team is full of players that have never gotten a championship. Do you really think motivation is the problem? Do you think that Mo Williams just didn't feel like "stepping up" two years in a row? He just doesn't have the ability. Why? Because the regular season =/= the playoffs...around again we come.

I don't see how bringing in a recently-fired head coach from a team that never went as far as the Cavs have is supposed to convince LeBron to stay. Maybe it was a small step in the right direction if LeBron felt that he wanted to play under Scott...but I can't pretend i'm surprised that it wasn't enough to convince him to stay.

I'm guessing you probably have an excuse for Kobe quitting in the playoffs a few years back...am I right?

Kobe never had to look for an easy way to the title because he pretty much always had it. He was with the most dominant player in the game when they won their titles. And than they landed Pau Gasol to get the next two. The only time where Kobe would have had to go "looking for a tite" would have been during the years between Shaq and Gasol....and even in that small period he threatened to leave lol. Something tells me you aren't thinking these posts through.

LeBron not having the motivation is why Kobe is the last of a dying breed? So no players after Kobe Bryant are going to be motivated to win? Sigh....your post is just full of gems like this.

This probably should be /thread for you.

You're absolutely right he has the best team in the league UNTIL the playoffs come then midnight strikes and his perfect carriage turns to a pumpkin. Come on you make absolutely no sense at all, you spew garbage about me not backing up my claims when you go off and a completely ridiculous rant about how his team can be good enough to win more games than any other team in the league then all of a sudden aren't good enough to win a 7 game series which makes no sense at all whichever way you spin it. I am not a Lebron "hater" but I can recognize that even though he is the most physically gifted players on the court, he lacks the mental toughness to lead a team to a championship. That is why he joined the Heat and not the Knicks or the Bulls. He feels that championships are going to be handed to him now which is why he said he was going to win more than 7 with the Heat!


Kobe was playing on teams that were fighting for a final spot in the playoffs and Lebron was playing on teams that had first place in the East secured by the all star break. And yet you still think they are comparable which shows how naive your analysis is. Because as much as you try to tear down my arguments, you cannot come up with any reasoning for the Cavs not being able to win a championship other than "they are not good enough" even though they had the best record in the league for consecutive years. Like I said before they are the only team in NBA history to have the best record in back to back seasons and NOT win a title. So clearly regular season consistency does have some effect on playoff performance. I know you're going to come back with your unprovable claim that "regular season =/= playoffs" well last time I checked it was the EXACT same game with the point being to score more points than your opponent. The only reason that teams get upset in the playoffs by teams with inferior records is due to the fact that they do not play to their potential. It has nothing to do with not being good enough unless there is a serious mismatch which as I clearly demonstrated there wasn't. So how about we just let this go because I am tired of arguing about it.

GspLAL
07-13-2010, 08:26 PM
How is LeBron not a leader? You're not with him in the lockerroom. You aren't handing out water bottles at practice. You aren't in the team huddles. You don't know what he does, you don't know what he says, you don't know who he inspires. Please, if there is one thing you should have learned about me now, is that if you say something stupid without backing it up, i'm going to call you on it. I've done it enough times already.

It's not about not being motivated. Are you kidding me? The Cavs team is full of players that have never gotten a championship. Do you really think motivation is the problem? Do you think that Mo Williams just didn't feel like "stepping up" two years in a row? He just doesn't have the ability. Why? Because the regular season =/= the playoffs...around again we come.

I don't see how bringing in a recently-fired head coach from a team that never went as far as the Cavs have is supposed to convince LeBron to stay. Maybe it was a small step in the right direction if LeBron felt that he wanted to play under Scott...but I can't pretend i'm surprised that it wasn't enough to convince him to stay.

I'm guessing you probably have an excuse for Kobe quitting in the playoffs a few years back...am I right?

Kobe never had to look for an easy way to the title because he pretty much always had it. He was with the most dominant player in the game when they won their titles. And than they landed Pau Gasol to get the next two. The only time where Kobe would have had to go "looking for a tite" would have been during the years between Shaq and Gasol....and even in that small period he threatened to leave lol. Something tells me you aren't thinking these posts through.

LeBron not having the motivation is why Kobe is the last of a dying breed? So no players after Kobe Bryant are going to be motivated to win? Sigh....your post is just full of gems like this.

This probably should be /thread for you.

Oh yeah having a team consisting of Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Kwame, and Brian cook is a contending team. Kobe didn't always have a championship team, he PUSHED the FO to bring players in before he made the decision to leave. He didn't keep the organization in the dark about what he was thinking.

New Power House
07-13-2010, 08:45 PM
You're absolutely right he has the best team in the league UNTIL the playoffs come then midnight strikes and his perfect carriage turns to a pumpkin. Come on you make absolutely no sense at all, you spew garbage about me not backing up my claims when you go off and a completely ridiculous rant about how his team can be good enough to win more games than any other team in the league then all of a sudden aren't good enough to win a 7 game series which makes no sense at all whichever way you spin it. I am not a Lebron "hater" but I can recognize that even though he is the most physically gifted players on the court, he lacks the mental toughness to lead a team to a championship. That is why he joined the Heat and not the Knicks or the Bulls. He feels that championships are going to be handed to him now which is why he said he was going to win more than 7 with the Heat!


Kobe was playing on teams that were fighting for a final spot in the playoffs and Lebron was playing on teams that had first place in the East secured by the all star break. And yet you still think they are comparable which shows how naive your analysis is. Because as much as you try to tear down my arguments, you cannot come up with any reasoning for the Cavs not being able to win a championship other than "they are not good enough" even though they had the best record in the league for consecutive years. Like I said before they are the only team in NBA history to have the best record in back to back seasons and NOT win a title. So clearly regular season consistency does have some effect on playoff performance. I know you're going to come back with your unprovable claim that "regular season =/= playoffs" well last time I checked it was the EXACT same game with the point being to score more points than your opponent. The only reason that teams get upset in the playoffs by teams with inferior records is due to the fact that they do not play to their potential. It has nothing to do with not being good enough unless there is a serious mismatch which as I clearly demonstrated there wasn't. So how about we just let this go because I am tired of arguing about it.

Whitemamba33? Lebron,according to his Daddy Stern made a very foolish "Decision" by getting his enormous ego on National TV to astonish the Sports world and showing his insecurity! He is a clear quitter! Kobe was not close to have the kind of team that this looser had this last time when he was eliminated by the Celts. He now ran to cover under the skirt of his "buddy" Wade and now he is announcing that they are going to bring 7 rings to Miami! What a looser. The media still kissing his egocentric *** in spite of his petulant and arrogant way of handling his business decisions. I can imagine if Kobe would have signed with another team in the past . The media would continue to massacre his image until now.Now the Lakers need to continue to reinforce the team and prepare to destroy them next year! Kobe is not the last one but one the few with the heart and the skills to lead a team to a championship! Lebron clearly couldn't!:facepalm:

New Power House
07-13-2010, 08:51 PM
How is LeBron not a leader? You're not with him in the lockerroom. You aren't handing out water bottles at practice. You aren't in the team huddles. You don't know what he does, you don't know what he says, you don't know who he inspires. Please, if there is one thing you should have learned about me now, is that if you say something stupid without backing it up, i'm going to call you on it. I've done it enough times already.

It's not about not being motivated. Are you kidding me? The Cavs team is full of players that have never gotten a championship. Do you really think motivation is the problem? Do you think that Mo Williams just didn't feel like "stepping up" two years in a row? He just doesn't have the ability. Why? Because the regular season =/= the playoffs...around again we come.

I don't see how bringing in a recently-fired head coach from a team that never went as far as the Cavs have is supposed to convince LeBron to stay. Maybe it was a small step in the right direction if LeBron felt that he wanted to play under Scott...but I can't pretend i'm surprised that it wasn't enough to convince him to stay.

I'm guessing you probably have an excuse for Kobe quitting in the playoffs a few years back...am I right?

Kobe never had to look for an easy way to the title because he pretty much always had it. He was with the most dominant player in the game when they won their titles. And than they landed Pau Gasol to get the next two. The only time where Kobe would have had to go "looking for a tite" would have been during the years between Shaq and Gasol....and even in that small period he threatened to leave lol. Something tells me you aren't thinking these posts through.

LeBron not having the motivation is why Kobe is the last of a dying breed? So no players after Kobe Bryant are going to be motivated to win? Sigh....your post is just full of gems like this.

This probably should be /thread for you.

Did you watched the NBA play offs this last time? Did you see Lebron's body language? Do you know where he is now? That will answer your question about him being a leader. He had the face of Bush when he got the news about the plains hitting the trade center buildings in NY! He knew his "Decision" way back since he saw Kobe leading the charge in the Olympics for the gold medal. He knew that he needed at least two "super stars" to try to dethrone the REAL KING! SO there is no sense of leadership in this guy. He is a show up Queen at his best!

whitemamba33
07-14-2010, 01:11 AM
Whitemamba33? Lebron,according to his Daddy Stern made a very foolish "Decision" by getting his enormous ego on National TV to astonish the Sports world and showing his insecurity! He is a clear quitter! Kobe was not close to have the kind of team that this looser had this last time when he was eliminated by the Celts. He now ran to cover under the skirt of his "buddy" Wade and now he is announcing that they are going to bring 7 rings to Miami! What a looser. The media still kissing his egocentric *** in spite of his petulant and arrogant way of handling his business decisions. I can imagine if Kobe would have signed with another team in the past . The media would continue to massacre his image until now.Now the Lakers need to continue to reinforce the team and prepare to destroy them next year! Kobe is not the last one but one the few with the heart and the skills to lead a team to a championship! Lebron clearly couldn't!:facepalm:

uumm..ok? Thank you for sharing your opinions. If you find any facts - get back to me.

whitemamba33
07-14-2010, 01:12 AM
Did you watched the NBA play offs this last time? Did you see Lebron's body language? Do you know where he is now? That will answer your question about him being a leader. He had the face of Bush when he got the news about the plains hitting the trade center buildings in NY! He knew his "Decision" way back since he saw Kobe leading the charge in the Olympics for the gold medal. He knew that he needed at least two "super stars" to try to dethrone the REAL KING! SO there is no sense of leadership in this guy. He is a show up Queen at his best!

Again, thank you for your opinion. People might take you more seriously if you aren't just insulting the guy.

Just a thought.

whitemamba33
07-14-2010, 01:14 AM
Oh yeah having a team consisting of Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Kwame, and Brian cook is a contending team. Kobe didn't always have a championship team, he PUSHED the FO to bring players in before he made the decision to leave. He didn't keep the organization in the dark about what he was thinking.

Did you even read my post? Because if you had, than you would have seen this:

"The only time where Kobe would have had to go "looking for a tite" would have been during the years between Shaq and Gasol....and even in that small period he threatened to leave lol."

Clearly i'm not saying that he was on a contending team during this period - which makes our post kind of useless. Sorry, not "kind of"...it makes your post useless.

whitemamba33
07-14-2010, 01:37 AM
You're absolutely right he has the best team in the league UNTIL the playoffs come then midnight strikes and his perfect carriage turns to a pumpkin. Come on you make absolutely no sense at all, you spew garbage about me not backing up my claims when you go off and a completely ridiculous rant about how his team can be good enough to win more games than any other team in the league then all of a sudden aren't good enough to win a 7 game series which makes no sense at all whichever way you spin it. I am not a Lebron "hater" but I can recognize that even though he is the most physically gifted players on the court, he lacks the mental toughness to lead a team to a championship. That is why he joined the Heat and not the Knicks or the Bulls. He feels that championships are going to be handed to him now which is why he said he was going to win more than 7 with the Heat!


Kobe was playing on teams that were fighting for a final spot in the playoffs and Lebron was playing on teams that had first place in the East secured by the all star break. And yet you still think they are comparable which shows how naive your analysis is. Because as much as you try to tear down my arguments, you cannot come up with any reasoning for the Cavs not being able to win a championship other than "they are not good enough" even though they had the best record in the league for consecutive years. Like I said before they are the only team in NBA history to have the best record in back to back seasons and NOT win a title. So clearly regular season consistency does have some effect on playoff performance. I know you're going to come back with your unprovable claim that "regular season =/= playoffs" well last time I checked it was the EXACT same game with the point being to score more points than your opponent. The only reason that teams get upset in the playoffs by teams with inferior records is due to the fact that they do not play to their potential. It has nothing to do with not being good enough unless there is a serious mismatch which as I clearly demonstrated there wasn't. So how about we just let this go because I am tired of arguing about it.

What facts are you looking for? I've proven that there is little correlation in the last 10 years with number 1 teams and championships. I can help you out some more if you want: the only significant contributer on the Cavs team to surpass his regular season average in scoring was Shaq - who knows how to step it up in the playoffs. Everyone else surrounding LeBron just faded away at a time when they were expected to step up. I'm not going to throw a bunch of stats at you because I'm sure you are capable of doing that yourself...but I'm sure the Cavs expected more than 11 ppg on 42% shooting, 18% from 3 point land, and 66% from the free throw line from Antawn jamieson. IN FACT: further proving TWO points of mine that the Cavs players stepped down during the playoffs AND that the regular seaso =/= the playoffs - only 1 time in his entire career has he upped his scoring average in the postseason compared what he did in the regular season.

Mo Williams: Never matched his scoring average in the playoffs compared to the regular season.

Same with West.

AND THE REGULAR SEASON IS THE SAME AS THE PLAYOFFS? lol...perhaps it is just a coincidence that all these players are playing worse in the post season. Yep...must be a coincidence.



Be careful before you call something "unproven".

SundaeBest
07-14-2010, 07:13 PM
,,,huh?

Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq, and 2 with a team consisting of Pau, Bynum, Artest, and Odom - two of which have been All-Stars before.

Once things started going "down", he threatened to leave.

He pretty much tried to do what LeBron did, except he wasn't a free agent so he couldn't force it.

Im am a HUGE Kobe fan...but I don't understand this comparison at all.

With the exception of Shack, the others aren't PERENNIAL all-stars, and none of them have ever come close to be considered MVP-quality players.

Also, Kobe didn't say, "trade me" when things were going bad. Kobe said, "trade me" when Jim Buss started spreading rumors about him, THAT pissed Kobe off. Not to say that Kobe didn't deserve some heat, (for his unprofessional tirade about Bynum), but he CLEARLY stuck with the team that had wasted two years while puttying NOTHING around him.

So if you can't grasp that, then I'm not sure how you can grasp anything at all.

TylerSL
07-14-2010, 08:19 PM
Honestly I don’t dislike or like any of the three (LB, Dwade, Bosh) , I respect that they are great players but, I feel there is a trend that is beginning that players want to join forces because they are not tough enough to get their team there themselves. Ive heard spills the next three will be Paul, Melo, Stoudamire.

Its pretty sad to me, I feel like this a trend bound to continue and being a Lakers fan this might be my last 5 years of watching NBA ball , Don’t get me wrong I am a die hard Lakers fan, When Kobe was tripping about being traded, I said trade his *&& to mars lol. But at the same time I’d be a liar if I didn’t say I watched NBA for the journey of the superstars too. Honestly how many of you were not rooting for Kobe to get his 5th to tie magic or phil to get his 10th to pass Red.

Also I honestly feel these three can never be compared to the likes of Kobe, Mike, or even Reggie, Ewing or Barkley etc… I am sure Bark could have teamed up with Reggie and Ewing in his prime if he wanted but they had pride that they want to go down with a legacy that they got their team their and defeated these other greats, mike especially while getting there or GO DOWN TRYING.

Even When the Whole Shaq and Kobe thing was going down I hated it but I couldn’t blame Kobe for wanting to be the man on his team when he obviously had the talent. I mean let’s be honest when you think of the bull 6 titles who do you think of Scottie, Kukoc? No you think of Michael and how bout the Rockets in 94 95 Olajuwon or the Spurs of 2000’s Duncan.

Basketball is as much a team sport as an individual, it’s the reason individuals get sent to the Hall of Fame and not teams.

What do you guys think is this trend is it bound to continue and what’s up with this new school of players?

Kobe is not Tim Ducan is!!!! Kobe was demanding a trade when the Lakers were not good (the year the missed the playoffs and the next year got knocked out in the 1st round) and Duncan will never ever leave San Antonio

Vinylman
07-14-2010, 09:10 PM
Ok...so now you are telling me that a Cavs team didn't want it enough and the coach wasn't good enough...which brings us back about 24 hours to why LeBron was right to leave a team that wasn't commited to winning. I'm glad you are finally seeing what I tried to explain yesterday.

the reason no one in here will listen to your position... some of which has merit... is because you absolve Lebron of any blame for them losing... if you truly think lebron is as good of competitor as kobe or MJ you are delusional...

In the end i don't begrudge Lebron for going to Miami... it will be his best chance to win... however, it will destroy his legacy because most observers recognize that wade is the key guy... he is a competitor who like kobe only wants to win...

btw... your analysis that kobe and Lebron's situations were the same has the impact of discrediting your valid points because on its face it is patently absurd.

Good Luck to Miami... the thing their big 3 is missing is Perkins/Rondo type players for cheap... in addition, they will have very little maneuvarability with the cap going forward... they can't put an $85-90 payroll together because other than the top 3 guys the next biggest salary is Miller... it will be MLE hell for the forseeable future... giving up those 4 #1s doesn't help much either...

whitemamba33
07-15-2010, 12:00 AM
With the exception of Shack, the others aren't PERENNIAL all-stars, and none of them have ever come close to be considered MVP-quality players.

Also, Kobe didn't say, "trade me" when things were going bad. Kobe said, "trade me" when Jim Buss started spreading rumors about him, THAT pissed Kobe off. Not to say that Kobe didn't deserve some heat, (for his unprofessional tirade about Bynum), but he CLEARLY stuck with the team that had wasted two years while puttying NOTHING around him.

So if you can't grasp that, then I'm not sure how you can grasp anything at all.

Which supports what I said in this thread a couple of days ago about LeBron not having another star around him to help him out.

Wow...this merry-go-round never ends.

whitemamba33
07-15-2010, 12:09 AM
the reason no one in here will listen to your position... some of which has merit... is because you absolve Lebron of any blame for them losing... if you truly think lebron is as good of competitor as kobe or MJ you are delusional...

In the end i don't begrudge Lebron for going to Miami... it will be his best chance to win... however, it will destroy his legacy because most observers recognize that wade is the key guy... he is a competitor who like kobe only wants to win...

btw... your analysis that kobe and Lebron's situations were the same has the impact of discrediting your valid points because on its face it is patently absurd.

Good Luck to Miami... the thing their big 3 is missing is Perkins/Rondo type players for cheap... in addition, they will have very little maneuvarability with the cap going forward... they can't put an $85-90 payroll together because other than the top 3 guys the next biggest salary is Miller... it will be MLE hell for the forseeable future... giving up those 4 #1s doesn't help much either...

That's not true...I never said LeBron isn't at least partly to blame for the Cavs losing. I'll be responsible or what I say, but I won't be responsible for what I don't.

My only real problem is that people are blaming LeBron for EVERYTHING. I mean, the guy put up 29.1 ppg, and had 9 rebounds and about 8 assists. Who else in the league is even capable of doing that? And he did it. So to blame LeBron for Cleveland losing when he is putting up such amazing numbers is silly.
You can make the argument that he "should have gotten the other guys to do their jobs"...but lets be honest with ourselves..this isn't elementary school basketball. These guys are getting paid millions and milliions of dollars to go out and play this "game" - and their legacies are on the line. If that isn't enough alone to motivate them, then nothing ever will be. Motivation is not the issue. Leadership is not the issue. The issue, as i've laid out already with stats for support, is a team of guys who have a history of underperforming in the playoffs.

I devoted a whole post to explaining why Kobe and LeBron's situations were not the same...so I'm not sure where you are coming from.

whitemamba33
07-15-2010, 12:19 AM
Regardless, i've grown tired of this thread. Everything that is being questioned has already been proven with stats and past trends - and it's at the point where it's gotten sadly repetitive.

I say that Kobe and LeBron were in different sitations because Kobe was going to be traded and LeBron was a free agent, and somebody comes along and tells Kobe and Lebron's situations were different.....facepalm.

I make the point that LeBron didn't have the star power that the Lakers or Boston have, and somebody comes along and tells me that the Cavs didn't have any perrenial stars....facepalm.

My point is and has always remained the same: Kobe Bryant is not the posterchild of the "going down trying" breed. I've made my argument.

Peace.
I

nastynice
07-15-2010, 02:55 AM
the reason i think Kobe is the last of a dying breed is because you don't see anymore finesse players like Kobe up to that level of superstar status. More of today's NBA players are reaching superstar level status with frankly "brute physical strength". Players like LeBron James is on top of that list. Reaching superstar status with "Bruth Strength" unlike Kobe or MJ who are more finesse players than i see strength. Are we seeing the last of a dying breed? Absolutely. Finesse is dying. Players like Pau Gasol who are skilled big men with Finesse, Hakeem Olajuwon = finesse, tim duncan = finesse. Guys are getting bigger and the finesse part of basketball is dying.

next finesse player on the rise is d rose, watch, dude is nasty wish a solid squad now

markkk89
07-15-2010, 01:38 PM
,,,huh?

Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq, and 2 with a team consisting of Pau, Bynum, Artest, and Odom - two of which have been All-Stars before.

Once things started going "down", he threatened to leave.

He pretty much tried to do what LeBron did, except he wasn't a free agent so he couldn't force it.

Im am a HUGE Kobe fan...but I don't understand this comparison at all.

Kobe only had one all star in the first championship.

If you can answer this then maybe you're right. Which NBA superstar is willing (without complaining) to play on a team with those starters (Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown) and at the same time bring them to the playoffs in the WEST? All three of them would either be third stringers for other teams or not even be in an NBA team.

On the other hand, lebron had a team that was the #1 seed for the past two years, how the hell is that the same? You argue the number of all stars, well lebron had (4) FOUR teammates who have been All-Stars before.

i don't know maybe you just started watching the NBA just these last playoffs..:confused:

whitemamba33
07-16-2010, 11:16 AM
Kobe only had one all star in the first championship.

If you can answer this then maybe you're right. Which NBA superstar is willing (without complaining) to play on a team with those starters (Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown) and at the same time bring them to the playoffs in the WEST? All three of them would either be third stringers for other teams or not even be in an NBA team.

On the other hand, lebron had a team that was the #1 seed for the past two years, how the hell is that the same? You argue the number of all stars, well lebron had (4) FOUR teammates who have been All-Stars before.

i don't know maybe you just started watching the NBA just these last playoffs..:confused:

lol...

this is why people shouldn't jump into conversations that they aren't a part of.