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donatolla
07-11-2010, 06:07 PM
Found in Verducci's post from Friday...this probably exists elsewhere, but is interesting enough for its own thread.

My perspective: I agree (and have in several posts so far - most recently questioning the hitting coach). The approach needs to be fixed...hopefully at the same time as when the pitching matures.

Good news is that Overbay is hitting as expected: 282/378/376 in june, 382/432/706 so far in July - and there are players on the way that should improve things.


Toronto's flawed style of play
There are only two teams left in baseball that play their home games on artificial surface, the Rays and Blue Jays. But Toronto, the only one without a dirt infield, forfeits any advantage of the surface with a style of baseball that is decidedly old-school American League ball.
Toronto is next to last in the AL in batting average, last in OBP, last in sacrifice hits and next to last in stolen bases. Its batting average (.240) and OBP (.305) are on track to be the worst in franchise history over a 162-game season. Toronto batters hit more balls in the air and more infield pop-ups than any other team and have a greater percentage of plate appearances end with a strikeout than all others.
What the Jays do well is ambush fastballs, jumping on pitches early in the count while hunting for home runs. They have hit 28 home runs off the first pitch (by comparison, the Yankees have only 11), including seven by Vernon Wells. But it is a one-dimensional game that doesn't hold up well over a season. The Jays have won only six games all year without a home run, including just one since May 24.

lovingTO
07-11-2010, 07:20 PM
how many games since may 24 have they been homerless?

nithanyo
07-11-2010, 10:15 PM
wut does the start of the article have to do with the end.

It starts off talkin bout the turf then first pitch homeruns. What we need is a balance. First pitch swinging and swinging for the fences works for Wells, Bautista, Buck and Gonzalez. Its not so good with Hill, and Lind. Hill and Lind need to do what they were doing last year. AA needs to develop/get players that hit for average as well. Cus imagine what bautistas rbi total would be if the guy hitting in front of him was hitting .300.

But gotta say. I would really like a dirt infield. Even tampas turf looks like a real ballpark cus of that

2009mvp
07-12-2010, 01:02 AM
The word 'duh' comes to mind...

Pride
07-12-2010, 02:50 AM
Eh, he's sort of pointing out the obvious.

scotttube
07-12-2010, 12:59 PM
Whoa the only team without a dirt infield. I never thought of it that way but now that I look up Tropicana field they have dirt that spans across all the baselines and Rogers Centre just has dirt around the bases. Makes Rogers Centre seem even worse in my mind.

StealingSigns
07-12-2010, 01:29 PM
wut does the start of the article have to do with the end.

It starts off talkin bout the turf then first pitch homeruns. What we need is a balance. First pitch swinging and swinging for the fences works for Wells, Bautista, Buck and Gonzalez. Its not so good with Hill, and Lind. Hill and Lind need to do what they were doing last year. AA needs to develop/get players that hit for average as well. Cus imagine what bautistas rbi total would be if the guy hitting in front of him was hitting .300.

But gotta say. I would really like a dirt infield. Even tampas turf looks like a real ballpark cus of that

The Jays are not taking advantage of their home park characteristics. Why would you attempt to launch every pitch into the air when you have artificial turf? The turf gives a much better chance of yielding a hit because natural grass slows the ball down tremendously once it makes contact with it. With turf, the ball meets less resistance, travelling further and faster, making it more difficult for infielders to get to singles, and outfielders to get to extra-base hits.

Same goes for the dirt. With less dirt around, less resistance for the ball to be slowed down.

bartron_44
07-12-2010, 02:13 PM
Umm, last time I checked, you do not win the game by getting more hits, or hitting for a better average than the other team. Pretty sure the rule was you win the game by scoring more runs...lol Who cares that we score our runs 1 hit at a time rather than 2 or 3 or 4, as long as we score, isn't that all that really matters? We are 7th in the AL in runs scored. I think we are taking advantage of the small hitter friendly park we play in. We are leading the league in HR's, and are tied for 2nd in doubles over the first half, so I think we are doing something right...

Wells is back to his old self before the injuries (on pace for 30+ HR's and 100 RBI), Overbay is back to normal and hitting great over the past month or so with an OBP of .370+, Lind seems to be starting to come around lately with 3 HR's in his current 6 game hitting streak, and Hill is still on pace for about 25 HR's and 70 RBI even though he has missed time and played hurt most of the first half. Combine that with the career years for Buck, Gonzalez and Bautista power wise ( all 3 should be all stars) ;and I would have to say that Murphy has done an outstanding job actually.

2009mvp
07-12-2010, 04:51 PM
^^You realize that 7th out of 14 teams isn't very good, right? And that it puts us 4th in the division, a good 40 runs shy of the 3rd place team?

Gibby
07-12-2010, 05:24 PM
Cito needs change his atitude about OBP and same with Murphy. Hopefully the new manager will focus on all espects of the game

Twitchy
07-12-2010, 05:49 PM
Umm, last time I checked, you do not win the game by getting more hits, or hitting for a better average than the other team. Pretty sure the rule was you win the game by scoring more runs...lol Who cares that we score our runs 1 hit at a time rather than 2 or 3 or 4, as long as we score, isn't that all that really matters? We are 7th in the AL in runs scored. I think we are taking advantage of the small hitter friendly park we play in. We are leading the league in HR's, and are tied for 2nd in doubles over the first half, so I think we are doing something right...

Wells is back to his old self before the injuries (on pace for 30+ HR's and 100 RBI), Overbay is back to normal and hitting great over the past month or so with an OBP of .370+, Lind seems to be starting to come around lately with 3 HR's in his current 6 game hitting streak, and Hill is still on pace for about 25 HR's and 70 RBI even though he has missed time and played hurt most of the first half. Combine that with the career years for Buck, Gonzalez and Bautista power wise ( all 3 should be all stars) ;and I would have to say that Murphy has done an outstanding job actually.

Murphy's outstanding job has led to the Jays being on pace to score at least 50 runs less than last year. They're on pace to score 735 runs this year and scored 798 runs last year. He doesn't deserve any credit, and I'll go so far as to say he's been a liability because of how poorly Hill/Lind have been this year.

donatolla
07-12-2010, 10:33 PM
Umm, last time I checked, you do not win the game by getting more hits, or hitting for a better average than the other team. Pretty sure the rule was you win the game by scoring more runs...lol Who cares that we score our runs 1 hit at a time rather than 2 or 3 or 4, as long as we score, isn't that all that really matters? We are 7th in the AL in runs scored. I think we are taking advantage of the small hitter friendly park we play in. We are leading the league in HR's, and are tied for 2nd in doubles over the first half, so I think we are doing something right...

Wells is back to his old self before the injuries (on pace for 30+ HR's and 100 RBI), Overbay is back to normal and hitting great over the past month or so with an OBP of .370+, Lind seems to be starting to come around lately with 3 HR's in his current 6 game hitting streak, and Hill is still on pace for about 25 HR's and 70 RBI even though he has missed time and played hurt most of the first half. Combine that with the career years for Buck, Gonzalez and Bautista power wise ( all 3 should be all stars) ;and I would have to say that Murphy has done an outstanding job actually.

Wow.

First - yes, you win by scoring more than you give up. Unfortunately, a team that is as "all or nothing" as this one will not win any championships. Yes home runs are nice, but a .306 OBP is just disgraceful. They are also striking out a ton. Heck, their current pace of runs scored will be strickly 'meh' in Blue Jays history, even with all the home runs.

Second - have you even looked at what Wells has done recently? Maybe...because he really is playing like his old self. a.k.a completely ineffective.

Third - Murphy has failed. Calling it now: He'll be fired before next spring.

StealingSigns
07-13-2010, 12:17 AM
The opposing teams get the same advantages that the field yields as the Jays do, so that point is overrated.

Except, if that team was built for a pitchers park or a fly ball park, then no they don't. Think you kind've missed the point here...

bartron_44
07-13-2010, 01:52 PM
Wow.

First - yes, you win by scoring more than you give up. Unfortunately, a team that is as "all or nothing" as this one will not win any championships. Yes home runs are nice, but a .306 OBP is just disgraceful. They are also striking out a ton. Heck, their current pace of runs scored will be strickly 'meh' in Blue Jays history, even with all the home runs.

Second - have you even looked at what Wells has done recently? Maybe...because he really is playing like his old self. a.k.a completely ineffective.

Third - Murphy has failed. Calling it now: He'll be fired before next spring.

ok, let me respond to all of your points..and please give this some thought before commenting...

First- I understand they are not going to break records as an offense,but you need to look at what he's working with. Most people on here picked our offense/team to be the worst in the AL, even behind Baltimore for god sakes. Other then Overbay, Lind and Bautista, we don't have any high OBP type of hitters. Its not Murphy, as if you check most of these guys historical numbers, you will see that their averages and OBP's are pretty much on par with what they all have done in the past before they met Murphy..Bautista is still getting on base, Overbay started slow but has come around over the past couple months and is back to normal, and ind is practically on pace for as many walks as he had last year (has 25 and ended with 58 last year)

The only 2 people that aren't doing very well, are Lind and Hill, and those are probably 2 of the guys he left alone the most after last year. Hill was looking better than ever in ST but his hammy injury has really effected his play I think....not Murphy. Lind just didn't seem to be seeing the ball well , but has looked locked in over the past week or so coming into the break. He also is still drawing walks, he just hasn't found the groove he was in all of last season. Last year was a breakout year for Lind and Hill, so I imagine other teams did A LOT of scouting/research to learn how to pitch them more effectively. They are the only 2 not exceeding everyone's expectation I think, so 7 out of 9 is pretty darn good imo..

Second- every player goes through a slump at some point over 162 game season. He will bounce back. Everyone knew he couldn't keep up the torrid pace he started at for an entire season.

Third-I think you will be right, as most new managers bring in their own coaching staffs..