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Yagyu+
06-30-2010, 08:48 PM
An article from fangraphs (http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/theriot-behind-in-the-count/) by Dave Golebiewski, a journalism student at Duquesne University.



Now that 20-year-old Starlin Castro is the Chicago Cubs’ starting shortstop, Ryan Theriot has shifted to second base and again holds position eligibility on both sides of the DP combo. And, for the first time in a few years, he’s stealing bases at an efficient rate. Theriot went 28-for-32 in SB attempts during his first year as a starter in 2007, adding about 3.4 runs of value according to Baseball Prospectus’ Equivalent Stolen Base Runs metric. But he went 22-for-35 in 2008 (-3.5 EQSBR) and 21-for-31 last season (-2.6 EQSBR). In 2010, Theriot has swiped 15 bases in 18 tries, with +1.1 EQSBR so far. He’s running, and running well, when he gets the chance. Unfortunately, Theriot’s getting on base at a career-low-clip.

In 314 PA, the 30-year-old has a .280/.321/.307 line, with a paltry .289 wOBA. Never known for driving the ball, Theriot has a .027 Isolated Power that falls short of his very modest .074 career ISO. The fact that he has all of seven extra-base hits this season clearly contributes to his feeble offensive output. But another reason why Theriot’s bat has been nearly 11 runs below average is his declining walk rate.

Theriot took ball four 8.9% of the time from 2007-2009, slightly above the average big league walk rate. This year, he’s walking in just 5.1% of his PA. Is he expanding his strike zone by swinging at more pitches thrown off the plate? Slightly, but it’s hardly a dramatic increase. Here are Theriot’s outside swing percentages in recent seasons, as well as the MLB average for each season. The last column shows Theriot’s O-Swing as a percentage of the big league average:

{Theriot O-Swing}

If Theriot’s not hacking at more pitcher’s pitches, then why has his walk rate dipped? For starters, opponents are throwing him more pitches within the strike zone:

{Theriot Zone %}

Pitchers have long challenged the former LSU Tiger with in-zone offerings, but he’s getting more pitches over the plate than ever before. Unfortunately, Theriot is having a hard time recognizing balls from strikes. According to StatCorner, the percentage of pitches that he has taken for a strike has increased this year. Theriot has taken 38.6% of pitches for a strike in 2010, compared to 33% in ’09, 36.1% in ’08 and 37.7% in ’07 (the MLB average is 31%).

Pitchers are throwing Theriot more strikes, and he’s keeping the bat on his shoulder more often against those strikes. It’s no surprise, then, that Theriot’s often ending up in pitcher’s counts. His first pitch strike percentage is 66.9 this season. That’s the fourth-highest rate among qualified MLB hitters and well above his 60.1% average from 2007 to 2009 (58-59% MLB average).

Opposing hurlers aren’t afraid of Theriot, and they reflect that confidence by pounding the zone against him. In order to return to his previous .290/.355/.360 range, Theriot needs to knock more than two extra-base hits a month and stop putting himself at the mercy of the pitcher.


Theriot is behind in the count, so Count has some advice for Theriot: "10 things to know before you go and hit... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NHXTU_-Tgs)"

Buckcub
06-30-2010, 09:17 PM
I voted yes because I've liked the majority of your threads and am beginning to trust your judgment.

Don't make me regret it!

poodski
06-30-2010, 09:18 PM
This very much proves what I was saying a long time ago that his plate discipline is still fine.

Buckcub
06-30-2010, 09:20 PM
Oh, and because Golo..Polish-something.. is absolutely right (even if every Cubfan here could have told him the same thing, that Theriot's lack of power is only close to being justified when his OBP is high).

poodski
06-30-2010, 09:23 PM
Whats actually funny though is in a pitchers count Theriot has actually been one of our better hitters, though thats not saying much.

Man our catchers are ****ing awful when behind in the cont.

poodski
06-30-2010, 09:26 PM
Oh, and because Golo..Polish-something.. is absolutely right (even if every Cubfan here could have told him the same thing, that Theriot's lack of power is only close to being justified when his OBP is high).

Its even more relevent when you hit him 2nd. I mean why would a pitcher throw anything out of the zone, when Derrek Lee is hitting behind him.

I mean its even been evident when Theriot has hit down in the order.

People hate Theriot because he is used incorrectly not because he is a bad player.

Captain Obvious
06-30-2010, 09:39 PM
I mean why would a pitcher throw anything out of the zone, when Derrek Lee is hitting behind him.

Because Derrek Lee sucks.

Illinirob83
06-30-2010, 09:45 PM
Teams challenge Theriot. What I've seen is that he doesn't battle with two strikes as good as he has in the past. And when a guy has no power, doesn't walk and has a total of 7 extra base hits and he is a regular....then yes he is not only a bad player, he is brutal. If his stolen base % didn't improve like it has, he would be one of the worst players in baseball for the amt of AB's he has.

Doogolas
06-30-2010, 09:57 PM
Teams challenge Theriot. What I've seen is that he doesn't battle with two strikes as good as he has in the past. And when a guy has no power, doesn't walk and has a total of 7 extra base hits and he is a regular....then yes he is not only a bad player, he is brutal. If his stolen base % didn't improve like it has, he would be one of the worst players in baseball for the amt of AB's he has.

He is only seeing .08 less pitches per PA this year than last year. :shrug: He battles just fine.

Yagyu+
06-30-2010, 09:59 PM
He is only seeing .08 less pitches per PA this year than last year. :shrug: He battles just fine.

Shh! He said he's seen it.

He knows what he can do.

Captain Obvious
06-30-2010, 10:01 PM
Shh! He said he's seen it.

He knows what he can do.

But he is still right. He may not 'battle' with 2 strikes or whatever... but, Theriot's OPS with 2 strikes is about 100 points less for his career and 70 points less from last year.

Kirel
06-30-2010, 10:14 PM
Its even more relevent when you hit him 2nd. I mean why would a pitcher throw anything out of the zone, when Derrek Lee is hitting behind him.

I mean its even been evident when Theriot has hit down in the order.

People hate Theriot because he is used incorrectly not because he is a bad player.
It's a little of A, little of B I think.

Yagyu+
06-30-2010, 10:18 PM
But he is still right. He may not 'battle' with 2 strikes or whatever... but, Theriot's OPS with 2 strikes is about 100 points less for his career and 70 points less from last year.

Upon further examination, I think you'll find that I wrote nothing to the contrary. I do admire your vigilance though. Keep up the fine work.

Captain Obvious
06-30-2010, 10:26 PM
Upon further examination, I think you'll find that I wrote nothing to the contrary. I do admire your vigilance though. Keep up the fine work.

Whoops, that meant to be a double quote.... my bad.

Yagyu+
07-01-2010, 01:15 AM
Whoops, that meant to be a double quote.... my bad.

Aw, I can't get mad at you with a sig like that.


Unanimous decision so far: Golebiewski is delightful!

Illinirob83
07-01-2010, 01:35 AM
Shh! He said he's seen it.

He knows what he can do.

I know that he sucks at baseball, and I've seen that. A guy who doesn't walk, doesn't have any power whatsoever and is nothing but a singles hitter is bad. He plays an ok defense, and steals an occasional base. He blows. He makes way too many outs.

poodski
07-01-2010, 09:46 AM
I know that he sucks at baseball, and I've seen that. A guy who doesn't walk, doesn't have any power whatsoever and is nothing but a singles hitter is bad. He plays an ok defense, and steals an occasional base. He blows. He makes way too many outs.

Honestly you don't know ****.

His walk rate in the first two slots in the order is only 8.2%.

His walk rate in the 7-8 spots is 11.8%.

He simply walks better when down in the order, he gets on base better down in the order.

Even so he is not a bad player, he has been an above average SS the last two years.

The problem with Theriot is not the batter its manager playing him incorrectly. Theriot cant walk if balls aren't thrown out of the zone.

Str1fe5
07-01-2010, 10:31 AM
Honestly you don't know ****.

His walk rate in the first two slots in the order is only 8.2%.

His walk rate in the 7-8 spots is 11.8%.

He simply walks better when down in the order, he gets on base better down in the order.

Even so he is not a bad player, he has been an above average SS the last two years.

The problem with Theriot is not the batter its manager playing him incorrectly. Theriot cant walk if balls aren't thrown out of the zone.

Theriot is a meh player. He's good for somewhere between 2 and 3 WAR, somwhere between a .710 and a .735 OPS, and anywhere from average to just a bit above average defense @ SS. He's been kind of jerked around between positions and playing time this season, so I can understand why his defensive numbers have dipped a bit. For his career, he's a +11.8 UZR/150 @ 2B and + 1.3 UZR/150 @ SS. I think we can normalize that to +12.5 and +2.5 most likely, which means that he is *just as valuable a SS as he is a 2B*

He's having a rough year behind the plate this year. As he's in his 2nd year of arbitration, his value to the team is going to fall eventually. As soon as the Cubs have to start paying him 6 7 8 million dollars, I don't want him on our roster. Seeing as how he's already 30 years old, if we can get a decent young spec back its worth it, otherwise I think its perfectly acceptable to keep Theriot and return him to his pre-2007 expected role of being a jack of all trades - back up 3B, SS, 2B, COF, and spot start him vs LHP for somebody.

BDawk4Prez
07-01-2010, 10:37 AM
You can't quiet TheRiot!!!

toovey107
07-01-2010, 10:41 AM
I hate Theriot regardless :shrug:

morrisjon
07-01-2010, 11:32 AM
Juan Pierre ran into the same issues, no pitcher is going to walk you when the worst thing that you can do to them is hit a single. The only reason to nibble with Theriot at the plate is if there are 2 outs and the pitcher is batting behind him.

I wonder how successful the old lead-off type hitters would be in today's game. Take Brett Butler for example, would he be able to have +.400 OBP years if he was in his prime playing now?

Theriot's only hope for a really good OBP is to somehow learn how to foul off 20 pitches every at bat until the opposing pitcher says screw it, just take first base.

OT...Is there any interest in breaking down the numbers of some of the former Cubs greats? Some things have surprised me lately like seeing that Dunston despite his arm had pretty poor range (probably due to playing hurt) or that Ryno was still a good defender when he came back from retirement. Mark Grace and his clutchness, etc.

Illinirob83
07-01-2010, 11:59 AM
Honestly you don't know ****.

His walk rate in the first two slots in the order is only 8.2%.

His walk rate in the 7-8 spots is 11.8%.

He simply walks better when down in the order, he gets on base better down in the order.

Even so he is not a bad player, he has been an above average SS the last two years.

The problem with Theriot is not the batter its manager playing him incorrectly. Theriot cant walk if balls aren't thrown out of the zone.

Honestly you continue to prove you have an erection for Ryan Theriot.

The guy does not walk......check and as one of the people above mentioned. Pitchers are going to pitch Theriot like he is a pitcher because what is the worst that can happen to the opposing pitcher with Theriot up.....a single?
The guy has no power whatsoever....check
He rarely if ever gets any sort of extra base hit......check
His defense is average......check
He occasionally steals a base, and luckily for him he has been more successful this year then in the past....check.

If his name was Neifi Perez you would probably hate him.....but at least Neifi had a high MLB skill....he could play really good defense.

Illinirob83
07-01-2010, 12:04 PM
Theriot cant walk if balls aren't thrown out of the zone.

And apparently he can't hit the ball hard when the ball is in the zone either. He isn't a SS anymore.....we have to start looking at him as a 2b, and he is awful as an offensive 2b. He did a fine job filling in at SS for the team, and had a terrific '08, other than that he has been pretty mediocre overall, at best, for a major league baseball regular. I am sure everyone's walk rate is higher down in the lower part of the order. He swings way too often on the first pitch, and he doesn't ever do anything positive with the first pitch.....awful first pitch swinging hitter. He doesn't walk, and he doesn't hit anything for power.....bad.

Ever since he became a regular his .OPS has been ..672, .745, .712, and currently a pathetic .626. He has above average speed, and has a decent glove. A singles hitter who doesn't walk, and has absolutely no power at all. I don't want him as a regular...he has no great MLB skill at all. At least a guy like Jeff Baker can smack around some lefty pitchers for a good clip....that is at least a skill.

windycityD
07-01-2010, 12:39 PM
Theriot is a meh player. He's good for somewhere between 2 and 3 WAR, somwhere between a .710 and a .735 OPS, and anywhere from average to just a bit above average defense @ SS. He's been kind of jerked around between positions and playing time this season, so I can understand why his defensive numbers have dipped a bit. For his career, he's a +11.8 UZR/150 @ 2B and + 1.3 UZR/150 @ SS. I think we can normalize that to +12.5 and +2.5 most likely, which means that he is *just as valuable a SS as he is a 2B*

He's having a rough year behind the plate this year. As he's in his 2nd year of arbitration, his value to the team is going to fall eventually. As soon as the Cubs have to start paying him 6 7 8 million dollars, I don't want him on our roster. Seeing as how he's already 30 years old, if we can get a decent young spec back its worth it, otherwise I think its perfectly acceptable to keep Theriot and return him to his pre-2007 expected role of being a jack of all trades - back up 3B, SS, 2B, COF, and spot start him vs LHP for somebody.

If Philly wanted to talk real turkey, I'd talk Lilly and Theriot. They could use both players big time in what appears to be a race out East, plus Utley and Polanco are both out. I realize Cliff Lee will be dangled & that Philly could go all in again with him, but that all in would involve yet another deep carving into their farm system.

Yagyu+
07-01-2010, 12:40 PM
Ryan Theriot washes his own car. He paints his own house. These things I know.

poodski
07-01-2010, 12:49 PM
Honestly you continue to prove you have an erection for Ryan Theriot.

Since I like a guy that has proved to be above average it makes me have an erection? Well then I guess my pants get a little tighter every time he plays.


The guy does not walk......check and as one of the people above mentioned.

The guy does walk, that has been shown and proven. His plate discipline is very good. Only three regulars swing at less pitches outside the zone than Theriot (Lee, Fukudome, Soto), of those four he makes contact the most outside the zone as well, and for that matter inside the zone. He has the highest contact rate on the team, as well. He also sees 4% more strikes than anyone else, and only Jeff Baker sees more than 50%. No one in the majors sees more strikes than Theriot, and only two people in the majors get more first pitch strikes. Thats why he doesnt walk. His sOPS+ of 91 after a 0-1 count really isn't all that bad either. In fact his sOPS+ of 136 when the pitcher is ahead is really damn good. The problem is that sOPS+ is only a 593 OPS.


Pitchers are going to pitch Theriot like he is a pitcher because what is the worst that can happen to the opposing pitcher with Theriot up.....a single?

No pitchers are going to pitch to him like a pitcher because of who hits behind him. Its been shown if he hits lower in the order he walks more, so your logic is well at best flawed.


The guy has no power whatsoever....check

Awesome, you figure that out yourself?


He rarely if ever gets any sort of extra base hit......check

Again with the power, you repeat it every 4 words.


His defense is average......check

Well thats incorrect. His career 11.8 UZR/150 at 2B shows that he is much more than average. He was pretty average at SS, but that still made him above average.


He occasionally steals a base, and luckily for him he has been more successful this year then in the past....check.

Whew, luckily he is getting lucky.


If his name was Neifi Perez you would probably hate him

Well thats not true. I actually like Neifi quite a bit. I was quite fond of he and Macias.


.....but at least Neifi had a high MLB skill

Here it comes!!!


..

Its almost here!!


..

So close!!!


he could play really good defense.

There it is!

But his defense wasnt as good as Theriot's! With a lower UZR/150 at 2B, and his defense as SS was .1 runs better over 150 games.

So perhaps you would like to try again?

poodski
07-01-2010, 12:52 PM
we have to start looking at him as a 2b

Out of this garbage post this is the only thing I am going to address because the rest was the whole he cant walk he has no power babbling bull ****.

So this I will address.

Yes his bat gets worse moving to 2B, because of replacement level which lowers his bat by 10 runs over 150 games.

BUT

yeah its a big but

His defense improves by 10 runs over 150 games.

And what is 10 minus 10?

I will let you figure it out.

Yagyu+
07-01-2010, 12:57 PM
I hope Po voted for more Golebiewski.

poodski
07-01-2010, 01:02 PM
I hope Po voted for more Golebiewski.

I have now. I do like him, he is about the only Dave can stand over there now.

Fangraphs' analysis has become rather hard to reach of late. This is one of the few that is pretty good.

I mean did we really need two articles on Russell Branyan? Did we need someone to try THAT hard to show it was a good trade, I can make Koyie Hill look better easier than it is to show that was a good trade. It was stupid on the Mariner's part both then and now.

Yagyu+
07-01-2010, 01:14 PM
I have now. I do like him, he is about the only Dave can stand over there now.

Fangraphs' analysis has become rather hard to reach of late. This is one of the few that is pretty good.

I mean did we really need two articles on Russell Branyan? Did we need someone to try THAT hard to show it was a good trade, I can make Koyie Hill look better easier than it is to show that was a good trade. It was stupid on the Mariner's part both then and now.

That's funny. I don't mind the expanded coverage so much, but you're right about the Branyan bit. However, there are still some good nuggets of sports writing. I like this first paragraph from earlier today:


In his book, “Is This a Great Game or What?”, Tim Kurkjian relayed the tale of Vladimir Guerrero‘s humble beginnings in pro ball. Then a lanky 16-year-old, Guerrero showed up at a tryout in the Dominican Republic on the back of a motorcycle. Sporting mismatched shoes with a sock shoved into one of them to make it fit, Vlad earned himself a contract with Montreal that day. The motorcycle driver got a couple hundred bucks, and the Expos got themselves one of the most devastating hitters in recent memory.

Oddly enough, the article (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-impaler-lives/) is also by Golebiewski. I'd never seen the guys name until yesterday.

poodski
07-01-2010, 01:17 PM
Oddly enough, the article (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-impaler-lives/) is also by Golebiewski. I'd never seen the guys name until yesterday.

Really?

He has been a regular for a while now. He probably writes more than Appelman now, but sadly not as much as Cameron, who I wish didn't write at all.

Guess he has only written 30 articles at FG. I guess I know his name more from THT.

Yagyu+
07-01-2010, 01:21 PM
Really?

He has been a regular for a while now. He probably writes more than Appelman now, but sadly not as much as Cameron, who I wish didn't write at all.

Looking back through the archives I've had to have read his stuff before. Just never noticed who they were authored by.

behindmydesk
07-01-2010, 01:29 PM
Since I like a guy that has proved to be above average it makes me have an erection? Well then I guess my pants get a little tighter every time he plays.



The guy does walk, that has been shown and proven. His plate discipline is very good. Only three regulars swing at less pitches outside the zone than Theriot (Lee, Fukudome, Soto), of those four he makes contact the most outside the zone as well, and for that matter inside the zone. He has the highest contact rate on the team, as well. He also sees 4% more strikes than anyone else, and only Jeff Baker sees more than 50%. No one in the majors sees more strikes than Theriot, and only two people in the majors get more first pitch strikes. Thats why he doesnt walk. His sOPS+ of 91 after a 0-1 count really isn't all that bad either. In fact his sOPS+ of 136 when the pitcher is ahead is really damn good. The problem is that sOPS+ is only a 593 OPS.



No pitchers are going to pitch to him like a pitcher because of who hits behind him. Its been shown if he hits lower in the order he walks more, so your logic is well at best flawed.



Awesome, you figure that out yourself?



Again with the power, you repeat it every 4 words.



Well thats incorrect. His career 11.8 UZR/150 at 2B shows that he is much more than average. He was pretty average at SS, but that still made him above average.



Whew, luckily he is getting lucky.



Well thats not true. I actually like Neifi quite a bit. I was quite fond of he and Macias.



Here it comes!!!



Its almost here!!



So close!!!



There it is!

But his defense wasnt as good as Theriot's! With a lower UZR/150 at 2B, and his defense as SS was .1 runs better over 150 games.

So perhaps you would like to try again?

Ah chanting Nefi Nefi from the bleachers.

we were sitting in RF were we not?

Illinirob83
07-01-2010, 01:35 PM
So you are using UZR 150 as your gospel? Neifi wasn't a better defensive player than Ryan Theriot? Defensive metrics are still flawed......I know people on this site like to use it as stone gospel....but many times the metric doesn't make much sense...like in the case of Theriot. Ryan, as I am sure you know, would do a fine job on the balls hit to him....has a weak arm for SS and had horrible range, especially to his right.

Oh, and btw....theriot doesn't walk and has no power whatsoever....have I mentioned that enough yet? A guy with a weak .OBP and no power isn't worthy of being a regular and has no special skill to warrant him playing as much as he does.

Illinirob83
07-01-2010, 01:38 PM
Ryan Theriot washes his own car. He paints his own house. These things I know.

and he rarely walks, and can't hit the ball hard...........oh did I mention that already?

behindmydesk
07-01-2010, 01:41 PM
and he rarely walks, and can't hit the ball hard...........oh did I mention that already?

I hate Theriot, but you saying rarely walks is very untrue. Even this year being down, he's demonstrated a good walk rate in the past. Old Billy Beane reference when he was taking 37 year old players, guys may lose power, and speed, they don't lose their eye and ability to take walks.

poodski
07-01-2010, 01:45 PM
So you are using UZR 150 as your gospel? Neifi wasn't a better defensive player than Ryan Theriot? Defensive metrics are still flawed......I know people on this site like to use it as stone gospel....but many times the metric doesn't make much sense...like in the case of Theriot. Ryan, as I am sure you know, would do a fine job on the balls hit to him....has a weak arm for SS and had horrible range, especially to his right.

Oh, and btw....theriot doesn't walk and has no power whatsoever....have I mentioned that enough yet? A guy with a weak .OBP and no power isn't worthy of being a regular and has no special skill to warrant him playing as much as he does.

Ah the special skill argument. I love that one. As long as you can one thing really well you can be a regular major leaguer.

Would you rather we compare FLD%? Is that basic enough for you, because the difference is still only .001.

Illinirob83
07-01-2010, 01:49 PM
I hate Theriot, but you saying rarely walks is very untrue. Even this year being down, he's demonstrated a good walk rate in the past. Old Billy Beane reference when he was taking 37 year old players, guys may lose power, and speed, they don't lose their eye and ability to take walks.

He has 16 total BB this year in 315 PA.....for a guy with no power that isn't good enough. A walk for him is essentially the same as a hit. His .OBA is .289....horrible. The lack of walks don't really bother me as much as his lack of hitting a doubles. He is literally nothing but a singles hitter. If he walked the exact same amount, but was able to muster up some doubles every once in awhile then he would be fine. It is a single, a rare walk, or nothing.

Illinirob83
07-01-2010, 01:52 PM
Ah the special skill argument. I love that one. As long as you can one thing really well you can be a regular major leaguer.

Would you rather we compare FLD%? Is that basic enough for you, because the difference is still only .001.

I would just like him to be better at baseball for the amount of time he gets to play and the amount of AB's that he gets.

My point about "special skill"...is a fine one. My example for baker before..I wouldn't want baker to be playing everyday, but he is on a major league roster because he is able to hit lefties at a good clip over the course of his career. Actually very good over the course of his career. He is able to do at least one thing at a high major league level.......what does theriot do that is that important at a high skill level?

If you think theriot isn't bad.....then what players are?

behindmydesk
07-01-2010, 01:58 PM
He has 16 total BB this year in 315 PA.....for a guy with no power that isn't good enough. A walk for him is essentially the same as a hit. His .OBA is .289....horrible. The lack of walks don't really bother me as much as his lack of hitting a doubles. He is literally nothing but a singles hitter. If he walked the exact same amount, but was able to muster up some doubles every once in awhile then he would be fine. It is a single, a rare walk, or nothing.

again i said i don't like the guy, but you say he doesn't walk. And that's untrue. outside of this year, which is what we are talking about on why's he's struggling, he's got 60-80 point differential which mean he's walking pretty good.

Illinirob83
07-01-2010, 02:05 PM
again i said i don't like the guy, but you say he doesn't walk. And that's untrue. outside of this year, which is what we are talking about on why's he's struggling, he's got 60-80 point differential which mean he's walking pretty good.

Agreed. Outside this year he has gotten on base at an ok clip. But for him he needs to be consistent....and if he isn't getting on base then he really is hurting the team due to no threat of power.

poodski
07-01-2010, 02:06 PM
I would just like him to be better at baseball for the amount of time he gets to play and the amount of AB's that he gets.

Then move him down in the order where he belongs where he might see an equal number of balls and strikes.


My point about "special skill"...is a fine one. My example for baker before..I wouldn't want baker to be playing everyday, but he is on a major league roster because he is able to hit lefties at a good clip over the course of his career. Actually very good over the course of his career. He is able to do at least one thing at a high major league level.......what does theriot do that is that important at a high skill level?

Just to put it out there over his career Theriot has a 380 OBP vs LHP. That seems pretty good to me?


If you think theriot isn't bad.....then what players are?

This should be fun. Since the beginning of the 2008 season, players that I would consider worse than Theriot would include, but not limited to:

Bobby Abreu, Bengie Moline, Carlos Lee, Kosuke Fukudome, Todd Helton, Jose Lopez, Jorge Cantu, Brandon Inge, David Ortiz, Alexei Ramirez, Adam Dunn, Vernon Wells, Carlos Quinten, Aaron Rowand, James Loney, Jack Cust, Melky Cabrera, Brad Hawpe, Jeff Francouer, Mark Teahen, and of course. Yuniesky Betancourt.

poodski
07-01-2010, 02:07 PM
Agreed.

What the **** do you mean agreed? You have said over and over again how he cant walk, then agree with someone saying he does walk at a decent rate?

Yagyu+
07-01-2010, 02:11 PM
and he rarely walks, and can't hit the ball hard...........oh did I mention that already?

I fail to see what this has to do with landscaping and responsible preventive automotive care.

And if you'd seen Theriot's personal advertisement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh0_J8yJ8o0&feature=related) you'd know damn well that he enjoys taking long walks on the beach. He's just a sexy boy.

EDIT: 'Landscaping?' you might ask. "You said he paints his own house."

Well I forgot to mention... he mows his own lawn!

Illinirob83
07-01-2010, 02:12 PM
What the **** do you mean agreed? You have said over and over again how he cant walk, then agree with someone saying he does walk at a decent rate?

Over the course of his career he has gotten on base at a pretty good clip....he isn't this year. 16 BB in 315 PA, .289 .OBA.....not good. He isn't getting on base, hitting for xtra base hits at all. If he was walking around the same amt but had more doubles then he wouldn't be such an albatross. This year it is a rare walk, a single or nothing....an out. And for a guy who has gotten 315 PA through the first three months, that is bad production. He has been a bad player.

poodski
07-01-2010, 02:17 PM
Over the course of his career he has gotten on base at a pretty good clip....he isn't this year. 16 BB in 315 PA, .289 .OBA.....not good. He isn't getting on base, hitting for xtra base hits at all. If he was walking around the same amt but had more doubles then he wouldn't be such an albatross. This year it is a rare walk, a single or nothing....an out. And for a guy who has gotten 315 PA through the first three months, that is bad production. He has been a bad player.

Sure in 3 months he has been bad, hell for 2 months he has been bad, the first month of the season he was on fire. Then he was moved to 2B. The second he changed positions his production dropped. So he is playing a position he hasnt played in 3 years, and his production dropped. Couldnt be any correlation there, could there?

Is Ramirez a bad player now too because of three months? Is Soriano bad because of 2009? Is Lee awful because of this year as well?

Basically you are saying he is a bad player because of two bad months of production, and hell in June in the 22 games he played he got on base in 18 of those.

Illinirob83
07-01-2010, 02:17 PM
Bobby Abreu, Bengie Moline, Carlos Lee, Kosuke Fukudome, Todd Helton, Jose Lopez, Jorge Cantu, Brandon Inge, David Ortiz, Alexei Ramirez, Adam Dunn, Vernon Wells, Carlos Quinten, Aaron Rowand, James Loney, Jack Cust, Melky Cabrera, Brad Hawpe, Jeff Francouer, Mark Teahen, and of course. Yuniesky Betancourt.

Why since the beginning of 2008? Why not since the beginning of 2007 when he became a regular? Maybe 2008, his best year by quite a bit.....maybe wasn't the norm for him. If you look at his 2007, 2009, and now 2010 seasons....where does he rank? 2008 might have been a "career year" for the guy and it looks now wasn't the norm. A .326 .OBP in 2007, .343 .OBP in 2009, and so far this year a very unimpressive .319 .OBP. With a guy with not much xtra base ability that isn't particularly good. Also, I believe in 2008 he hit at the top of the order most of the year. if he could then...why must he hit 8th to get the most out of him now? His best year he hit at the top most of the time.

Illinirob83
07-01-2010, 02:25 PM
Sure in 3 months he has been bad, hell for 2 months he has been bad, the first month of the season he was on fire. Then he was moved to 2B. The second he changed positions his production dropped. So he is playing a position he hasnt played in 3 years, and his production dropped. Couldnt be any correlation there, could there?

Is Ramirez a bad player now too because of three months? Is Soriano bad because of 2009? Is Lee awful because of this year as well?

Basically you are saying he is a bad player because of two bad months of production, and hell in June in the 22 games he played he got on base in 18 of those.

Soriano, Lee, Ramrez have a much longer history of consistency and production. Theriot has been a regular now going on four years......since he became a regular he really has had one really good season (2008). In 2007, a .326 .OBP hitting .266 isn't very good. 2009 he had an ok season....a meh .OBP of 343, but was able to have a nice two week stretch where he helped the team due to a very rare power surge. Until I see that kind of power surge again, I think that was a complete fluke. That surge made his season respectable.. We'll see how he does the rest of the year.

But I have a hard time justifying why he should play at all considering the Cubs have Baker, good against lefties....and Fontenot who has the ability to hit the ball in the gap at a higher rate than theriot.

poodski
07-01-2010, 02:25 PM
Why since the beginning of 2008? Why not since the beginning of 2007 when he became a regular? Maybe 2008, his best year by quite a bit.....maybe wasn't the norm for him. If you look at his 2007, 2009, and now 2010 seasons....where does he rank? 2008 might have been a "career year" for the guy and it looks now wasn't the norm. A .326 .OBP in 2007, .343 .OBP in 2009, and so far this year a very unimpressive .319 .OBP. With a guy with not much xtra base ability that isn't particularly good. Also, I believe in 2008 he hit at the top of the order most of the year. if he could then...why must he hit 8th to get the most out of him now? His best year he hit at the top most of the time.

That includes his awful 2010. If I went back and did 2007 to 2009 I am sure I would find even more that he was better than, but basically you want me to go through and take out his best year. Why not go through 2007 and 2009 and take out his best two months. Also take out April of this year.

I mean what do you want? You wanted me to give you worse players. I did, quite a few of them actually, and yet you want more? Yeah in 2008 he hit mostly in the two hole. He still hit better when hitting down in the order.

Illinirob83
07-01-2010, 02:46 PM
I am saying...maybe 2008 isn't the norm for him, maybe that was his "career year". In 2009 he had a meh .343 .OBP but what made his season look respectable overall was his two week power surge that which we probably won't see ever again. In 2007 he wasn't particularly good overall....in 2009, other than that great two week power surge...he wasn't particularly good, and 2010 he has been bad. 2007, 2009 and 2010 he hasn't been a very good major league regular. In 2008 he had a very good season.....maybe that wasn't the norm. He hasn't gotten close to his .387 .OBP in any other 'regular" year.

thawv
07-03-2010, 08:32 AM
I still can't believe a major league player can have a SLG lower than his OBP. Amazing! And a .624 OPS is is not even bench worthy. He's a bum. And now that he no longer makes the minimum, he even looks cocky.

windycityD
07-03-2010, 10:01 AM
I am saying...maybe 2008 isn't the norm for him, maybe that was his "career year". In 2009 he had a meh .343 .OBP but what made his season look respectable overall was his two week power surge that which we probably won't see ever again. In 2007 he wasn't particularly good overall....in 2009, other than that great two week power surge...he wasn't particularly good, and 2010 he has been bad. 2007, 2009 and 2010 he hasn't been a very good major league regular. In 2008 he had a very good season.....maybe that wasn't the norm. He hasn't gotten close to his .387 .OBP in any other 'regular" year.

Speaking of what we might not see again, I give you 2008. That season was an across the board aberration for the entire offense. That team walked and scored and had good numbers w/ RISP. It avoided the one run loss issues that were consistent in the first half of 2007. The second half of June of that year and the first half of September were the only real times that team hit a funk, prior to the NLDS. When you stay relatively healthy (which that team did) and only have basically one bad month of baseball, well, you win as much as we did. We've had team offensive issues now in...2007, 2009, and certainly 2010.

Theriot moving to 2b and the glaring drop offs for him since the move/ early May cannot all be attributed to the new position. For the better part of two seasons now, since AS was moved out of that role, he's been consistently used as either a lead off hitter or a #2, roles that do not suit RT at all. He's an 8th or 7th hitter at best. I really believe this will be his last season as a Cub. Should he not be dealt, the next manager will hopefully see what he is and he isn't.

Str1fe5
07-03-2010, 04:31 PM
Well Po considering you were calling for the benching of Ramirez after like the first 2 weeks of the season and have called for the benching of Lee at many points over the last 2 years, I think its safe to say taht given how terrible Theriot is playing *this* year, he should benched for more Baker/Fontenot.