PDA

View Full Version : Andrew McCutchen v Jose Reyes



JNev
06-18-2010, 10:06 PM
Who do you want on your team more?

McCutchen: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7977

Reyes: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7066

Lou Holtz Lisp
06-18-2010, 10:20 PM
I'd take Mccutchen anyday.

DieHardColtsfan
06-18-2010, 10:20 PM
I say no brainer McCutch

Gigantes4Life
06-19-2010, 05:59 AM
McCutchen. Younger, no contract to worry about for a few years, no injuries and just projects better.

Oh, and BTW, to JNev: I go to Cal Poly as well, class of '13.

giants73756
06-19-2010, 12:32 PM
Definitely McCutchen. Plus I hate Reyes' swing

MetsLegacy
06-19-2010, 01:33 PM
Reyes is a spark plug. When Reyes scores a run the Mets win 70% of the time and when he scores and drives in a run the Mets win 80% of the time.

giants73756
06-19-2010, 03:36 PM
Reyes is a spark plug. When Reyes scores a run the Mets win 70% of the time and when he scores and drives in a run the Mets win 80% of the time.

I'm sure you'll find that's the case for just about every player.

People who voted for Reyes in this poll didn't compare the stats.

Sick Of It All
06-19-2010, 04:48 PM
I'm sure you'll find that's the case for just about every player.

People who voted for Reyes in this poll didn't compare the stats.

Obviously the offensive stats favor McCutchen right now because Reyes was off to an ridiculous awful start, the worst of his career and that could be attributed to missing close to a year of action and this year basically not having a ST because of the thyroid issue, but those might be excuses more than anything.

With that said Reyes is on an extremely hot streak right now that has upped his BA from .216 on May 2nd to .276 right now and is a huge reason why the Mets have been winning games.


...now as far as defense goes, Reyes is a better fielder than McCutchen.

...and one last thing if you want to compare them base solely on this year then obviously Andrew is the better player so far, but Reyes has a history of being a extremely productive player as he has posted WAR above 5.5 3 times. 5.7 in 06, 5.5 in 07 and 6.0 in 08., Andrew has yet to do that, but then again this is only his 2nd season and he is 3 years younger than Reyes.


...but till he does I take Reyes over him.

Gigantes4Life
06-19-2010, 04:59 PM
Reyes is also either going to be a FA at the end of 2011 assuming they pick up his option or he's going to get a large extension.

GOON MUSIC
06-19-2010, 05:31 PM
lots of craziness in this thread

nymetsrule
06-19-2010, 05:48 PM
Who the hell would rather an outfielder over a SS such as Reyes? Or did I miss something, and are outfielders harder to come by now?

jetsfan89
06-19-2010, 06:16 PM
Reyes

Zmaster52
06-19-2010, 07:39 PM
Reyes. WOOHOO Mets fans!

Gigantes4Life
06-20-2010, 03:52 PM
Who the hell would rather an outfielder over a SS such as Reyes? Or did I miss something, and are outfielders harder to come by now?

I would rather have the cheaper and better player in the future.

Sick Of It All
06-20-2010, 04:02 PM
Price tag should never be an issue when comparing players ability period.

Gigantes4Life
06-20-2010, 04:23 PM
Price tag should never be an issue when comparing players ability period.

That's not what we're doing.


Who do you want on your team more?

I want the guy that is cheaper, will be on my team longer and projects better (as he's younger without any significant injuries).

Sick Of It All
06-20-2010, 04:29 PM
I want the guy who is clearly the better all around player and plays good defense at the most important position over the guy who is a bit questionable on defense.


...but that is just me, I prefer the better all around player now, than the guy who is cheaper and projects to be better because again projections are not givens.

Gigantes4Life
06-20-2010, 04:39 PM
I want the guy who is clearly the better all around player and plays good defense at the most important position over the guy who is a bit questionable on defense.


...but that is just me, I prefer the better all around player now, than the guy who is cheaper and projects to be better because again projections are not givens.

Interesting because Andrew McCutchen is on pace to have a more valuable season than Jose Reyes' best season in his career and this is his first full year.

And projections aren't given you're right, because McCutchen has also been better than his projections.

And defensively he's an above average OF, slightly below average for a CF.

And Reyes is already 27 and that is when the average player peaks, so if anything Reyes is on his way down (especially with the injuries).

nymetsrule
06-20-2010, 05:33 PM
Interesting because Andrew McCutchen is on pace to have a more valuable season than Jose Reyes' best season in his career and this is his first full year.

And projections aren't given you're right, because McCutchen has also been better than his projections.

And defensively he's an above average OF, slightly below average for a CF.

And Reyes is already 27 and that is when the average player peaks, so if anything Reyes is on his way down (especially with the injuries).

Injuries? You mean injury. There is no "s" to be added. Aside from when he got hurt last season (and he is proven to be fully healthy this season), he has played at least 153 games the previous 4 seasons. Also, what do you mean, "Already 27." A player who is 27 is at the beginning of his prime, going to about 32-33 years old. After that, they begin to decline.

:sigh:

Gigantes4Life
06-20-2010, 05:36 PM
Injuries? You mean injury. There is no "s" to be added. Aside from when he got hurt last season (and he is proven to be fully healthy this season), he has played at least 153 games the previous 4 seasons. Also, 27 is the beginning of a players prime, going to about 32-33 years old. After that, they begin to decline.

:sigh:

Fine, one injury.

And no, 27/28 is when players peak, Jose Reyes, if he is the typical player, will begin declining now.

http://tangotiger.net/mgl/agecurve.pdf

Sick Of It All
06-20-2010, 08:43 PM
Interesting because Andrew McCutchen is on pace to have a more valuable season than Jose Reyes' best season in his career and this is his first full year.

And projections aren't given you're right, because McCutchen has also been better than his projections.

And defensively he's an above average OF, slightly below average for a CF.

And Reyes is already 27 and that is when the average player peaks, so if anything Reyes is on his way down (especially with the injuries).

''On pace'', there is that looking into the future thing again, when he does it then lets talk.


and oh yeah, he he is below average at the position he is currently playing and the position where his offense would be of high value, if he plays a corner outfield spot, then his offense becomes slightly above average.

I take the SS with above average defense and above average offense for that postition. thank you an good night.

ritz
06-20-2010, 08:55 PM
I think it's a bit unfair to compare their seasons since Reyes' start was abysmal after missing almost all of '09 and all of ST this year.

Gigantes4Life
06-20-2010, 09:06 PM
''On pace'', there is that looking into the future thing again, when he does it then lets talk.


and oh yeah, he he is below average at the position he is currently playing and the position where his offense would be of high value, if he plays a corner outfield spot, then his offense becomes slightly above average.

I take the SS with above average defense and above average offense for that postition. thank you an good night.

If he were to move to LF his value would be no different.

And I don't know why you keep saying he's below average. One of his assets coming up was his great glove and I doubt that changes. And before you come back with his slightly below average UZR I would like to point out that you need about 3 years of UZR to draw any solid conclusions.

And again I'll repeat it: McCutchen is already a superior offensive player and Reyes is entering his decline phase (in which defense and baserunning are the first to go, two major parts of Reyes' value).


I think it's a bit unfair to compare their seasons since Reyes' start was abysmal after missing almost all of '09 and all of ST this year.

I'm not comparing their seasons. I'm comparing the fact that at this rate McCutchen will have a better year than Reyes' best.

JNev
06-20-2010, 09:16 PM
I dont know when McCutchen got bad in the outfield, but this is news to me. I've watched most of the Pirates games and I've yet to see him make an embarrassing play, and the outstanding plays have been much more memorable. As for career, McCutchen has a .988 fielding percentage compared to Reyes' .975 at SS.

GOON MUSIC
06-20-2010, 10:12 PM
Fine, one injury.

And no, 27/28 is when players peak, Jose Reyes, if he is the typical player, will begin declining now.

http://tangotiger.net/mgl/agecurve.pdf


Interesting because Andrew McCutchen is on pace to have a more valuable season than Jose Reyes' best season in his career and this is his first full year.

And projections aren't given you're right, because McCutchen has also been better than his projections.

And defensively he's an above average OF, slightly below average for a CF.

And Reyes is already 27 and that is when the average player peaks, so if anything Reyes is on his way down (especially with the injuries).


lmao people are saying reyes is declining ?

derek jeter is 36 and hes still pretty much raking

since mccutchen is 24

does that also mean he only has 3 more years of dominance in him ?

who the hell starts to decline at 27 ?

thats when players normally begin there peak for 5 or 6 years then they start to decline if they cant adjust

Gigantes4Life
06-20-2010, 11:41 PM
lmao people are saying reyes is declining ?

derek jeter is 36 and hes still pretty much raking

since mccutchen is 24

does that also mean he only has 3 more years of dominance in him ?

who the hell starts to decline at 27 ?

thats when players normally begin there peak for 5 or 6 years then they start to decline if they cant adjust

It's been statistically proven that players peak performance come at the age of 27, I don't see how this is a debate.

http://tangotiger.net/mgl/agecurve.pdf

Offensively, your prime lasts until about 30, but defense and speed are the first things to leave.

I never said he's declining, I said if he's the typical player with a few years of MLB experience then he's going to begin declining within the next year or so.

giants73756
06-20-2010, 11:45 PM
I dont know when McCutchen got bad in the outfield, but this is news to me. I've watched most of the Pirates games and I've yet to see him make an embarrassing play, and the outstanding plays have been much more memorable. As for career, McCutchen has a .988 fielding percentage compared to Reyes' .975 at SS.

Well you can't compare fielding percentages between an OF and SS. But yes McCutchen is great in the field. At least he was when the Giants played them when I saw him play. That's only 3 games, but I hear he's great.


lmao people are saying reyes is declining ?

derek jeter is 36 and hes still pretty much raking

since mccutchen is 24

does that also mean he only has 3 more years of dominance in him ?

who the hell starts to decline at 27 ?

thats when players normally begin there peak for 5 or 6 years then they start to decline if they cant adjust

It's pretty common knowledge a player peaks around 27. Did you look at the graphs the other guy posted? Here's the link again- http://tangotiger.net/mgl/agecurve.pdf

And of course it's not every player that peaks at 27. Some peak earlier, some peak in the mid 30s. The average peak is definitely not over 30. By the way, Jeter is having probably his worst season ever this year so far, good point.

JNev
06-22-2010, 08:32 AM
It really shouldnt be this close

mpballer92
06-22-2010, 01:56 PM
This is a really good comparison, but i'd probably take Reyes. Yeah, he's older and McCutchen seems to have more upside but for right now having Reyes on your team not only adds a huge spark to the front of your lineup but you're adding a prolific defender that will be a best friend to any pitcher in your teams rotation. That to go along with his speed and intensity. You can't ask for much more out of your short stop when this guys completely healthy.

Nymfan87
06-22-2010, 02:18 PM
To me, it's pretty easily Jose Reyes. He's very good defensively and lightning in a bottle on offense. There's a reason that in a Sports Illustrated poll from two years ago asking baseball executives what player you'd want to start a team with Reyes won the poll with double the votes of the next closest guy.

Also, what's up with fangraphs? His UZR went from +1.8 to -1.8 in like two days and we didn't even play on Monday.

Gigantes4Life
06-22-2010, 03:23 PM
To me, it's pretty easily Jose Reyes. He's very good defensively and lightning in a bottle on offense. There's a reason that in a Sports Illustrated poll from two years ago asking baseball executives what player you'd want to start a team with Reyes won the poll with double the votes of the next closest guy.

That's an appeal to authority and really doesn't help your argument. But if you want to go with that now I doubt anyone would take Reyes as a guy to start your team with.


Also, what's up with fangraphs? His UZR went from +1.8 to -1.8 in like two days and we didn't even play on Monday.

FanGraphs updates every Sunday.

Nymfan87
06-22-2010, 04:00 PM
That's an appeal to authority and really doesn't help your argument. But if you want to go with that now I doubt anyone would take Reyes as a guy to start your team with.

FanGraphs updates every Sunday.

Maybe it's not entirely relevant, but how many people would start a team with McCutchen? Also, he's 23 and has a -5.2 UZR through 68 games. He has a good bat for CF but if you move him to a corner to improve his defensive value his bat suddenly becomes below average for the position. Reyes has the speed and arm to stay at SS for a very long time. He hit .190 with a horrible OBP and SLG% for a month because Jerry Manuel is ******** and put him 3rd in the lineup, but since hitting leadoff he has been better than even his 2006 numbers (.300/.354/.487 in 2006).

TheRuckus
06-22-2010, 05:33 PM
McCutchen. More fun to watch, younger, cheap, projects better, and isn't a douchebag like Reyes.

Let the "hater" comments fly.

metsbulls1025
06-22-2010, 05:41 PM
The question is who is better. Then everyone starts talking about who is younger and has the better contract. We should have a follow up question asking if anyone knows how to read because who is younger and has a better contract has nothing to do with who is better right now.

Gigantes4Life
06-22-2010, 05:43 PM
Maybe it's not entirely relevant, but how many people would start a team with McCutchen? Also, he's 23 and has a -5.2 UZR through 68 games. He has a good bat for CF but if you move him to a corner to improve his defensive value his bat suddenly becomes below average for the position. Reyes has the speed and arm to stay at SS for a very long time. He hit .190 with a horrible OBP and SLG% for a month because Jerry Manuel is ******** and put him 3rd in the lineup, but since hitting leadoff he has been better than even his 2006 numbers (.300/.354/.487 in 2006).

I guarantee more people would rather have McCutchen than Reyes to start a franchise. Younger, cheaper and more upside for the next 6 years.

Also, you're using UZR for 68 games, and that means basically nothing. You need about 3 full years of UZR to get an accurate measurement of a player's defensive ability, and as McCutchen was touted as a good defensive CF, I'll put more stock in that than less than half a year of UZR. You saw yourself that a player's UZR can go from 1.8 to -1.8 in only a week.

metsbulls1025
06-22-2010, 05:45 PM
I guarantee more people would rather have McCutchen than Reyes to start a franchise. Younger, cheaper and more upside for the next 6 years.

Also, you're using UZR for 68 games, and that means basically nothing. You need about 3 full years of UZR to get an accurate measurement of a player's defensive ability, and as McCutchen was touted as a good defensive CF, I'll put more stock in that than less than half a year of UZR. You saw yourself that a player's UZR can go from 1.8 to -1.8 in only a week.

Again that is not the question. The question is who is better. That doesn't mean who would you rather have to start a franchise or who would you rather have in 5 years.

Nymfan87
06-22-2010, 05:48 PM
McCutchen. More fun to watch, younger, cheap, projects better, and isn't a douchebag like Reyes.

Let the "hater" comments fly.

Hater.

I bet Reyes would be more fun to watch for you if he wasn't busy being a beast against you guys :D

And McCutchen projects to be better than a 6 WAR player? This is news to me.

Gigantes4Life
06-22-2010, 06:08 PM
Who do you want on your team more?

McCutchen: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7977

Reyes: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7066


Again that is not the question. The question is who is better. That doesn't mean who would you rather have to start a franchise or who would you rather have in 5 years.

I'm sorry, where does he ask "who is better?"

He's asking who you would rather have on your team. And I would rather have McCutchen because he's cheaper and will likely be better here on out.

I didn't know it asked who was better in 2006-2008.

TheRuckus
06-22-2010, 08:00 PM
Hater.

I bet Reyes would be more fun to watch for you if he wasn't busy being a beast against you guys :D

And McCutchen projects to be better than a 6 WAR player? This is news to me.

Wright has been better against us the last few years, and I don't consider him to be anywhere near the flaming douche that Reyes is, faggy commercials with The Situation aside.

Also, I don't know if you know this, but there will be seasons beyond this one. McCutchen will be entering his prime as Reyes declines.

Beltrans Mole
06-28-2010, 03:26 PM
If you want to take McCutchen over Reyes, that's fine. But what is this talk about Reyes beginning to decline? He's 27 years old. Just because he's been in baseball for like 7 years doesn't mean he's just going to start declining. Reyes missed most of 2009 and all of the 2010 Spring Training. He's now finally starting to feel comfortable, and looks like the Reyes of 2006-2007. When you are 27 years old, you do not start the decline. Do you even watch baseball? Most players are in their prime from the ages of 27-32.

Gigantes4Life
06-28-2010, 04:22 PM
OMG:

http://tangotiger.net/mgl/agecurve.pdf

It has been statistically proven that the average player begins declining at around age 27/28. So yes, your prime years are 27-32, but you're very likely to be worse when you're 32 rather than 27.

Ron!n
06-28-2010, 05:35 PM
Andrew McCutchen. Younger, Cheaper and possibly better offensively. He still needs fine tuning defensively but after SS CF is probably the most important defensive position.
Also he still hasnt peaked, if hes this awesome now how awesome is he going to be in a couple years?

Ron!n
06-28-2010, 05:40 PM
I also think its pretty funny how the only people who want Reyes are Mets fans

Beltrans Mole
06-28-2010, 06:58 PM
I also think its pretty funny how the only people who want Reyes are Mets fans

I never said I would take Reyes over McCutchen....the whole age thing is the argument that got me into this thread. Reyes is 27 years old, not 31. He's entering his prime. Both players are great.

jkiddvc20
06-28-2010, 07:16 PM
I also think its pretty funny how the only people who want Reyes are Mets fans

Good we want to keep Reyes and we are happy with him so **** off

Gigantes4Life
06-28-2010, 08:30 PM
I never said I would take Reyes over McCutchen....the whole age thing is the argument that got me into this thread. Reyes is 27 years old, not 31. He's entering his prime. Both players are great.

Yes, he's entering his prime, he's also going to begin declining.

todu82
06-29-2010, 09:47 AM
Andrew McCutchen

Beltrans Mole
06-29-2010, 12:42 PM
Yes, he's entering his prime, he's also going to begin declining.

Now, think about what you said there. He's ENTERING his prime, yet he's also going to begin declining? Doesn't your prime, by definition, mean your best baseball years? If he is just entering that....then how in the world would he start to decline? Jose Reyes is 27 years old, and he will not start declining for a few years AT LEAST.

Gigantes4Life
06-29-2010, 03:59 PM
Now, think about what you said there. He's ENTERING his prime, yet he's also going to begin declining? Doesn't your prime, by definition, mean your best baseball years? If he is just entering that....then how in the world would he start to decline? Jose Reyes is 27 years old, and he will not start declining for a few years AT LEAST.

27-32 are your best years, with 27 being better than 28, 28 better than 29, 29 being better than 30, 30 being better than 31, etc.

How does that not make sense?

Nymfan87
06-29-2010, 04:08 PM
27-32 are your best years, with 27 being better than 28, 28 better than 29, 29 being better than 30, 30 being better than 31, etc.

How does that not make sense?

His point was that you act like Reyes is going to begin declining tomorrow, but he still has 4-6 more great years left before he tails off.

Gigantes4Life
06-29-2010, 04:10 PM
His point was that you act like Reyes is going to begin declining tomorrow, but he still has 4-6 more great years left before he tails off.

And my point is that McCutchen projects better because he's going to improve each year and Reyes will not.

nymetsrule
06-29-2010, 04:34 PM
27-32 are your best years, with 27 being better than 28, 28 better than 29, 29 being better than 30, 30 being better than 31, etc.

How does that not make sense?

I don't want to upset you with some simple biology, but the human body doesn't decay at a steady and exact rate every single time the calendar hits Jan 1st.

Gigantes4Life
06-29-2010, 05:10 PM
I don't want to upset you with some simple biology, but the human body doesn't decay at a steady and exact rate every single time the calendar hits Jan 1st.

I didn't say that, did you want me to elaborate on how he'll decline every day? :shrug:

Sick Of It All
06-29-2010, 06:58 PM
...a lot of assumptions are being used to determine that Andrew is better than or will be better than Reyes.

Like they say, those who assume......

ugafan
06-29-2010, 07:13 PM
LOL@ Met fans

McCutchen

Gigantes4Life
06-29-2010, 07:32 PM
...a lot of assumptions are being used to determine that Andrew is better than or will be better than Reyes.

Like they say, those who assume......

Baseball is all about assumptions. You're assuming that Reyes is going to perform at the same level that he did from 06-08.

If you're not using empirical evidence to project players going forward, then you're just making up predictions.

I will repeat this one more time:

It is a scientific fact that players peak offensively at the age of 26. Basestealing ability peaks at age 28. And defense generally slowly declines through a player's entire career (with ups and downs due to UZR fluctuation).

So for what you say, there are a lot of assumptions being made here that Jose Reyes will be better than Andrew McCutchen.

Beltrans Mole
06-29-2010, 07:43 PM
Then Reyes' prime was from age 23-27? Whatever happened to consistency? Is it completely impossible for Reyes to put together a string of 4 or 5 years from here until 32 years old in which there is relatively zero drop-off in his game?? Reyes just smashed a triple as I wrote this :)

Gigantes4Life
06-29-2010, 07:58 PM
Then Reyes' prime was from age 23-27? Whatever happened to consistency? Is it completely impossible for Reyes to put together a string of 4 or 5 years from here until 32 years old in which there is relatively zero drop-off in his game?? Reyes just smashed a triple as I wrote this :)

First of all, we need to define "prime."

Is it the best 3, 4 or 5 years of a player's career.

I'll say 5, to be generous. I'll say that a position player's prime is 25-29, with the peak of that prime occurring at 26.

And as for Reyes producing at a consistent level for the next 5 years until he's 32, there are very few players who have been able to do that.

The only players that I can think of that can perform consistently at a high level (as in WAR) from ages 27-32 are Barry Bonds and Derek Jeter. It's just very very rare.

And you're right, it is possible that Reyes can string together 5 seasons in a row averaging around 5.5 WAR.

I'll put a lot of money on that not happening though.

Sick Of It All
06-29-2010, 08:06 PM
Baseball is all about assumptions. You're assuming that Reyes is going to perform at the same level that he did from 06-08.

If you're not using empirical evidence to project players going forward, then you're just making up predictions.

I will repeat this one more time:

It is a scientific fact that players peak offensively at the age of 26. Basestealing ability peaks at age 28. And defense generally slowly declines through a player's entire career (with ups and downs due to UZR fluctuation).

So for what you say, there are a lot of assumptions being made here that Jose Reyes will be better than Andrew McCutchen.


Here is something that is not an assumption, Reyes has been an elite SS in the majors for a while now.

Beltrans Mole
06-30-2010, 12:31 AM
Most baseball players don't even make it to the majors until like 24-26, so how could that be included in most player's primes? I thought it was pretty universally-known that the average baseball player performs and his prime levels from the ages of roughly 27 to roughly 32.

Gigantes4Life
06-30-2010, 12:48 AM
Where did you hear that? The media. Baseball analysts like Peter Gammons?

I have statistical evidence.

And wasn't Jose Reyes breakout year when he was 23/24? :eyebrow:

Nymfan87
06-30-2010, 09:04 AM
Where did you hear that? The media. Baseball analysts like Peter Gammons?

I have statistical evidence.

And wasn't Jose Reyes breakout year when he was 23/24? :eyebrow:

Maybe Reyes having the 3rd highest WAR among shortstops in 2006, 3rd highest in 2007, 2nd highest in 2008, and already 8th highest this year despite a full month at the mendoza line hitting 3rd is reason for him being an elite SS? :shrug:

MetsFanatic19
06-30-2010, 09:27 AM
jose

Gigantes4Life
06-30-2010, 12:05 PM
Maybe Reyes having the 3rd highest WAR among shortstops in 2006, 3rd highest in 2007, 2nd highest in 2008, and already 8th highest this year despite a full month at the mendoza line hitting 3rd is reason for him being an elite SS? :shrug:

The question was about a player's prime being from 27-32, sorry about the confusion there.

Ragun
07-04-2010, 11:09 AM
mccutchen

ShinobiNYC
07-04-2010, 11:59 AM
Reyes until Mccutchen proves consistency in his career. Finding players with that much hitting ability at SS is much harder than ppl think...Just ask the Red Sox.

Shadee
07-04-2010, 02:03 PM
Reyes for another few years and Mccutchen after that.