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RelaxedFan
06-10-2010, 06:26 PM
Can there be a rule for this site that a sign and trade does NOT have to include top tier talent on our team? I read on lots of Forums about sign and trades that have teams loosing a super star but end up with another star. Yes, there have been some sign and trades that saw talent be moved, but the majority does not include top talent.

The player controls the situation. The old team is lucky to get something for their player leaving. Yes, the team can refuse to negotiate with the new team; however, why would you not want to receive talent/pick for letting a player walk? A team has more to gain by using a sign and trade with the other conference then letting the team sign with a team in the conference.

Any sign and trade for a top tier talent (James/Bosh)/Wade would include a package that is based on a good draft pick or a decent young player plus salary to match the 1st year.

Example #1
Please research the Rashard Lewis trade:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2932827
"The Magic sent Seattle a conditional second-round pick, while the Super Sonics earned a trade exception believed to be in the $9 million range."
The #1 Free Agent in 2007 via ESPN went for a 2nd Round Pick. Not the starting lineup of the Magic.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/featur...freeagency2007

Example #2
Peja to the Hornets
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/stoja...de_060712.html
The Pacers sent Cash and a 2nd Round pick from 1998 that was playing in Europe. Peja in 2006 was a top 4 free agent.

Example #3
11 of the last 13 max deals have been via sign and trade. I donít have the link and it could be a false fact but it was via the leads sports writer from the Houston Chronicle.

Iíve been guilty of assuming lots of talent to obtain talent, but in the NBA offseason, the rules are completely different when it comes to sign and trades.

Bluffmasta
06-10-2010, 06:54 PM
you may be right that the player has all the power, but if these guys want the extra 20mill and extra year on the contract the current teams they play for have sum leverage. these max players want to make as much money, so there best option is to resign with their current teams, if another teams want them, then a team liek teh cavs or raptors can demand value. RLewis and peja are not max players and did not deserve those contracts and their former teams most likely didn't want to sign them and just negotiate the s&T as a favour to the player.

s3antana5757
06-10-2010, 07:14 PM
What you're seeing is S&T for teams WITH cap room. The motivation for the Sonics or Pacers is the TPE they receive. Under most circumstances discussed this off-season, the team DOESN'T have cap room. So the team needs to come up with ~$15 million in salary of players who can make a difference. It'd be great for the Cavs to trade Gibson and West and other garbage pieces or the Lakers to trade Walton, Sasha, and S&T Morrison or something for a top tier player, but what's the motivation for the other team? None. They lose a star and get garbage contracts. The Sonics and Pacers both got a large TPE and a 2nd rounder. That's motivation.

beasted86
06-10-2010, 07:35 PM
Some above responses seem to be off.

I think what you seem to be overlooking is that these teams aren't giving up anything except Bird Rights. A team losing a top tier free agent to another team under the cap has no leverage. They will want a big TPE and picks/cash.

The other thing people need to understand is that LeBron/Bosh/Wade, etc... aren't going to demand a sign & trade to a team knowing that team will have to give up legit assets which will be a detriment to their chances of winning a title. So they won't want the team they are joining to give away good players and weaken the supporting cast around them.

Bluffmasta
06-10-2010, 07:47 PM
well if these top tier players jsut want to join another team and not play with one another then the S&T is irrelevant, as they can just sign with whoever, but if want to play together lets say in chicago, then lebron could be signed and bosh would have to accept a S&t, the raptors would demand sum talent in return like deng, and if chicago refuses why would the raptors help chicago by trading them bosh for a trade exception ?

beasted86
06-10-2010, 08:00 PM
well if these top tier players jsut want to join another team and not play with one another then the S&T is irrelevant, as they can just sign with whoever, but if want to play together lets say in chicago, then lebron could be signed and bosh would have to accept a S&t, the raptors would demand sum talent in return like deng, and if chicago refuses why would the raptors help chicago by trading them bosh for a trade exception ?

Why would the Raptors demand Deng? They already have an overpaid SF.

Anyway, if the Bulls want both LeBron and Bosh they will have to find a 3rd party, because I don't see either team going into rebuild mode while strapping themselves in to Deng or Hinrich's ugly contract.

If the Knicks want LeBron & Bosh they can outright sign them. If the Heat want LeBron & Bosh they have to trade Beasley & Cook. If the Nets want LeBron & Bosh they will have to trade Harris.

Iodine
06-10-2010, 08:06 PM
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd259/irisheathan/1720Attempting-To-Give-A-Damn20Larg.gif

Bluffmasta
06-10-2010, 11:51 PM
Why would the Raptors demand Deng? They already have an overpaid SF.

Anyway, if the Bulls want both LeBron and Bosh they will have to find a 3rd party, because I don't see either team going into rebuild mode while strapping themselves in to Deng or Hinrich's ugly contract.

If the Knicks want LeBron & Bosh they can outright sign them. If the Heat want LeBron & Bosh they have to trade Beasley & Cook. If the Nets want LeBron & Bosh they will have to trade Harris.

well it was just an example, no way the raps would help the bulls out by picking up a bad contract, but im saying in a S&T situation sum talent must be sent back and in that example it would be deng be shipped out, in NY lee would be traded and so on. The raps have no need for deng, unless turk gets traded and even then i wouldnt touch that awful contract as a raps fan.

RelaxedFan
06-11-2010, 09:10 AM
The salary that is received by the new team will be expiring contracts not long contracts (i.e. Deng).

king4day
06-11-2010, 09:46 AM
The salary that is received by the new team will be expiring contracts not long contracts (i.e. Deng).

It would depend on how the team wants to move forward (rebuilding or adding pieces). If Toronto loses Bosh, they will have a really hard time getting stars to come there. So getting Deng at least gives them a productive player and perhaps trade bait for the future.

The Suns had traded Joe Johnson for Diaw and picks. The talent level wasn't the same, but it's an example that you can get talent in sign and trades.

RipVW
06-11-2010, 09:55 AM
Why would the Raptors demand Deng? They already have an overpaid SF.

Anyway, if the Bulls want both LeBron and Bosh they will have to find a 3rd party, because I don't see either team going into rebuild mode while strapping themselves in to Deng or Hinrich's ugly contract.

If the Knicks want LeBron & Bosh they can outright sign them. If the Heat want LeBron & Bosh they have to trade Beasley & Cook. If the Nets want LeBron & Bosh they will have to trade Harris.

This is posturing.

Why is it that when people talk about the Bulls acquiring Bosh, its always in terms of a sign and trade, meaning there would be a 6th year, but when people talk about the Knicks acquiring Bosh, its in terms of Bosh foregoing the 6th year?

So does Bosh want the 6th year or not? If so, you should talk about NY acquring him in those terms as well. And they only have like 3 guys on their roster.

nycericanguy
06-11-2010, 11:46 AM
This is posturing.

Why is it that when people talk about the Bulls acquiring Bosh, its always in terms of a sign and trade, meaning there would be a 6th year, but when people talk about the Knicks acquiring Bosh, its in terms of Bosh foregoing the 6th year?

So does Bosh want the 6th year or not? If so, you should talk about NY acquring him in those terms as well. And they only have like 3 guys on their roster.

thats not the case, CHI can of course sign Bosh outright just like NY. It's just some bulls fans are under the false impression that CHI can sign Lebron AND Bosh, the argument from NY fans is NY is the only team that can sign both outright without asking TOR to take on bad contracts.

Of course Bosh would want the 6th year, but I don't think that is going to be the deciding factor in where he goes. TOR could very well just say "****** you" bosh, we are not helping you get a 6th year. Because TOR will have a very hard time getting much value back for Bosh from teams under the cap that can just outright sign him.

Stunner
06-11-2010, 12:01 PM
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd259/irisheathan/1720Attempting-To-Give-A-Damn20Larg.gif

lmao

nyanks79
06-11-2010, 12:29 PM
This is posturing.

Why is it that when people talk about the Bulls acquiring Bosh, its always in terms of a sign and trade, meaning there would be a 6th year, but when people talk about the Knicks acquiring Bosh, its in terms of Bosh foregoing the 6th year?

So does Bosh want the 6th year or not? If so, you should talk about NY acquring him in those terms as well. And they only have like 3 guys on their roster.

You should read what the OP said. He explained how many S&T are done through 2nd round picks or large Trade Exceptions. If the Knicks get Lebron and Bosh pushes for the 6th year, the Knicks can offer a TE or young player. If the Bulls sign Lebron, and then want Bosh, the Raptors, or a third team has to take on either Deng or Hinrich. Thats why cap space is valuable. The more you have, the more options and more felxibilty moving foward.

awmathewsjr
06-11-2010, 01:03 PM
This is posturing.

Why is it that when people talk about the Bulls acquiring Bosh, its always in terms of a sign and trade, meaning there would be a 6th year, but when people talk about the Knicks acquiring Bosh, its in terms of Bosh foregoing the 6th year?

So does Bosh want the 6th year or not? If so, you should talk about NY acquring him in those terms as well. And they only have like 3 guys on their roster.

This is because NY is under the cap and can sign Bosh straight up. The only team that can offer him 6 years is his current team, everyone else can only offer 5. So since the bulls only way of getting him is through a S&T that means Toronto would sign him(6yrs) before sending him to Chicago.

RelaxedFan
06-11-2010, 02:29 PM
The post was based on other posts I read that have teams giving up their starting lineup in a s/t.

Another good example, was the Shawn Marion and Hedu Turkoglu s/t.

The Mavs sent salary players only for Marion.
The Raports did send Marion but that was for the TE.
The Magic got a TE and some cash for sending Turkoglu to the Raports.

This wasn't a full max deal s/t, but another example of a s/t with the old team (Magic) getting nothing for letting a player walk.