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SDBearsFan
06-09-2010, 02:49 AM
Steve Stone is calling out the Cubs again.

The current White Sox television analyst said on Tuesday that Cubs manager Lou Piniella is missing the boat by not playing rookie outfielder Tyler Colvin more.

"I think that means that Lou doesn't have a great grasp on what to do with young players," Stone said in an interview on Comcast Sports Net. "Because with Tyler Colvin, if you take a look at what he has accomplished in a short period of time, with limited play, you realize that he very well could be the one thing the Cubs have been looking for for six years. That's a left-handed run producer. Colvin could be that one guy. But he can't do it on the bench, so you make a decision that you play the guy."

The last time Stone criticized the Cubs -- for their 2004 September swoon -- a maelstrom ensued that led to his resignation as a Cubs broadcaster. This time he's likely just upping the tension for this weekend's Crosstown Classic between the Sox and Cubs at Wrigley Field.

Colvin went 2-for-4 with an RBI in the Cubs' 3-2 loss to the Brewers on Tuesday. He is batting .300 with six homers and 16 RBIs in 90 at-bats. Piniella said recently that he will play Colvin more.

Piniella has also said that he has to be fair to his other outfielders, including Alfonso Soriano, Marlon Byrd, Kosuke Fukudome and Xavier Nady. Stone's not buying it.

"You have to stop this idea of being fair to your players," he said in the interview, which was reported by the Chicago Tribune. "The object is to win. Winning is the key. If you win as a baseball team, everybody's going to be happy. If you're fair to the guys and lose, people are going to stop coming to the ballpark, which they already have to a certain extent. They're going to stop watching, which they certainly have if you look at the [ratings], and they're going to stop listening, and with that the revenues are lower."

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5266551

1908_Cubs
06-09-2010, 02:53 AM
As much as I don't like Lou, Steve Stone is a bitter dickwad.

Chicago657
06-09-2010, 03:03 AM
Soriano, Fukudome, and Byrd have the highest combined wOBA of any teams outfield in the league. There isn't anywhere for him to play. I, along with many others, have been very critical of Lou. But there isn't anything he can do. Our three starting outfielders have been three of the best four hitters on our team this year.

Steve Stone, go **** yourself.

mg420
06-09-2010, 06:03 AM
i'm more pissed at lou for continually letting guys like demp & lilly stay in the game 1 hitter too long. i can think of 3 or 4 games in the late innings this year that the cubs have lost because he refuses to put in a reliever and then the starter gives up a bomb. i can kind of understand this pre cashner but now there is no excuse for having lilly pitch to hart in the 8th with cashner in the pen.

semperfi
06-09-2010, 06:45 AM
i'm more pissed at lou for continually letting guys like demp & lilly stay in the game 1 hitter too long. i can think of 3 or 4 games in the late innings this year that the cubs have lost because he refuses to put in a reliever and then the starter gives up a bomb. i can kind of understand this pre cashner but now there is no excuse for having lilly pitch to hart in the 8th with cashner in the pen.

Yeah there is, maybe you're heard of this thing called a complete game shutout. It's not like Lilly was struggling. He gave up a solo shot, get over it. I'd of sent him back out for the 9th(pending pitch count). Not to mention that shot that Lilly gave up didn't lose the game. The 2 runs that Marmol gave up did.

Mell413
06-09-2010, 07:20 AM
I can't blame Lou for this. The problem is that 4 of their top hitters are OFs so they will be sitting one of their better players regardless. I just find it humorous that the ONLY problem with this lineup is first and third base and yet people ***** about the outfield play.

semperfi
06-09-2010, 07:34 AM
I can't blame Lou for this. The problem is that 4 of their top hitters are OFs so they will be sitting one of their better players regardless. I just find it humorous that the ONLY problem with this lineup is first and third base and yet people ***** about the outfield play.

The problem is they can't knock runners in. It's deeper than just 1st and 3rd. NOT SAYING they aren't a big part of it, but they aren't the only problem.

Mell413
06-09-2010, 07:44 AM
The problem is they can't knock runners in. It's deeper than just 1st and 3rd. NOT SAYING they aren't a big part of it, but they aren't the only problem.

I guess it could be unfair to blame only 2 guys, but it's hard not to. Everyone in the lineup has done quite well except for those two. They have even gotten a nice boost from guys like Fontenot and Colvin. Lee and Ramirez are combined for -1 win so it's hard not to blame them. If those two are even combined for 3 wins worst case scenario we are a few games over .500 and something like 2 games back. I don't think not playing Colvin is the problem. it's Theriot batting leadoff or in the lineup in general, Soto not playing, and Lee and Ramirez being useless.

poodski
06-09-2010, 08:51 AM
I guess it could be unfair to blame only 2 guys, but it's hard not to. Everyone in the lineup has done quite well except for those two. They have even gotten a nice boost from guys like Fontenot and Colvin. Lee and Ramirez are combined for -1 win so it's hard not to blame them. If those two are even combined for 3 wins worst case scenario we are a few games over .500 and something like 2 games back. I don't think not playing Colvin is the problem. it's Theriot batting leadoff or in the lineup in general, Soto not playing, and Lee and Ramirez being useless.

Well Soto has been pretty useless of late, since May 10th he has a 501 OPS. While Koyie Hill isn't good by any means he has been playing better than Soto lately with an 820 OPS over his last 6 games when he has been starting more.

Str1fe5
06-09-2010, 09:14 AM
Well Soto has been pretty useless of late, since May 10th he has a 501 OPS. While Koyie Hill isn't good by any means he has been playing better than Soto lately with an 820 OPS over his last 6 games when he has been starting more.

Are you serious? ARe you really defending playing Koyie Hill over Geovany Soto because of a bad 3 week stretch? Do you really think that the last 3 weeks are a better indicator of success than the last three years, when Soto is in his mid to late 20's?

poodski
06-09-2010, 09:48 AM
Are you serious? ARe you really defending playing Koyie Hill over Geovany Soto because of a bad 3 week stretch? Do you really think that the last 3 weeks are a better indicator of success than the last three years, when Soto is in his mid to late 20's?

Last three years? You mean one year and a good month to start the season?

Hell if Hill didnt have to play in 26 straight games he might have outhit Soto last year.

Soto had a nice April but lets be honest he hasn't been good since August of 08.

Since June of 08 he has had the following OPS's per month: 747, 740, 1.010, 778, 398, 731, 916, 492, 751, 1.028, 662.

Koyie Hill sucks sure, but its not like he is really THAT much worse than Soto, plus IMO Hill is the better defensive catcher as well.

Soto should still be the starter, but its not like Hill is really hurting us here lately.

JayBandit
06-09-2010, 09:51 AM
i'm more pissed at lou for continually letting guys like demp & lilly stay in the game 1 hitter too long. i can think of 3 or 4 games in the late innings this year that the cubs have lost because he refuses to put in a reliever and then the starter gives up a bomb. i can kind of understand this pre cashner but now there is no excuse for having lilly pitch to hart in the 8th with cashner in the pen.

He tries to leave his starters in when they're pitching so great because he doesn't have faith in our offense to score many runs or our bullpen to protect a lead...and he has been proven correct in most instances. Lilly was still in line to get the win, Marmol shat himself out there, and if the offense could have taken better advantage of their opportunities and score more than 3 runs in a game, we wouldn't be talking about this.

ty_smitty21
06-09-2010, 10:05 AM
I'm with Steve Stone on this one. Honestly, would it be that hard to let Colvin play everyday? I mean yeah, we have 4 other outfielders who are playing pretty well. But what if Colvin played in left, then center, then right? Would it not be FAIR to let the other guys play in 70-80% of the games?

Not to mention... Fukudome is in his typical post-April slide. Soriano's one hot streak is the only reason his numbers look good. Byrd should play the most out of any of them, but he would be fine with 1-2 off days a week.

semperfi
06-09-2010, 10:31 AM
Last three years? You mean one year and a good month to start the season?

Hell if Hill didnt have to play in 26 straight games he might have outhit Soto last year.

Soto had a nice April but lets be honest he hasn't been good since August of 08.

Since June of 08 he has had the following OPS's per month: 747, 740, 1.010, 778, 398, 731, 916, 492, 751, 1.028, 662.

Koyie Hill sucks sure, but its not like he is really THAT much worse than Soto, plus IMO Hill is the better defensive catcher as well.

Soto should still be the starter, but its not like Hill is really hurting us here lately.

I'm with you on this one Poo. I'm not against Lou playing Hill because he has been performing when Lou calls on him and Soto isn't.

Ron!n
06-09-2010, 10:48 AM
Last three years? You mean one year and a good month to start the season?

Hell if Hill didnt have to play in 26 straight games he might have outhit Soto last year.

Soto had a nice April but lets be honest he hasn't been good since August of 08.

Since June of 08 he has had the following OPS's per month: 747, 740, 1.010, 778, 398, 731, 916, 492, 751, 1.028, 662.

Koyie Hill sucks sure, but its not like he is really THAT much worse than Soto, plus IMO Hill is the better defensive catcher as well.

Soto should still be the starter, but its not like Hill is really hurting us here lately.
FWIW Sotos last game he had a couple hits and he a Home Run the day before that so its very likely thats he coming around. Hes also still been walking even when his bat hasnt been on fire.

man man
06-09-2010, 11:01 AM
I like Stone. I got to meet him, and he was a really nice guy. He really knows the game, and I definitely enjoyed most of his broadcasts when he was still with the Cubs. That said, he doesn't know the reality of this situation like Lou does. That's how Steve feels, but whatever. Lou us actually running the team, and I think he's doing an all right job with what we've got - which is alot of guys not performing like they can...and an outfield that is crowded, but effective.

This is a non-issue. Another team's broadcaster criticized the Cubs. Why is this news?

semperfi
06-09-2010, 11:09 AM
FWIW Sotos last game he had a couple hits and he a Home Run the day before that so its very likely thats he coming around. Hes also still been walking even when his bat hasnt been on fire.

Hopefully he is coming back around. But he's been terrible after that start. I think a lot of it is losing. This team just lacks the emotion that winners have and I'm not saying they don't have it in them, they just are expressing it and it prolly has to do with losing.

Marlin Bystro
06-09-2010, 11:16 AM
Hopefully he is coming back around. But he's been terrible after that start. I think a lot of it is losing. This team just lacks the emotion that winners have and I'm not saying they don't have it in them, they just are expressing it and it prolly has to do with losing.

Yes the general demeanor of this team sucks. That is why I would like to see Lou fired and give this team a shot without him for a month before selling Lilly, Gorz, Lee etc....

ggross
06-09-2010, 11:17 AM
I agree 100% with Stone this time.

And I don't take anyone seriously who puts forth a case that it's ok to play Hill - that's just for attention.

semperfi
06-09-2010, 11:23 AM
I agree 100% with Stone this time.

And I don't take anyone seriously who puts forth a case that it's ok to play Hill - that's just for attention.

His .900 OPS and 3 rbis in 4 June games say otherwise. Seems like it paid off for Lou. I'm all for blasting Lou, but when he does something that pays off, don't blast him for that.

semperfi
06-09-2010, 11:26 AM
Yes the general demeanor of this team sucks. That is why I would like to see Lou fired and give this team a shot without him for a month before selling Lilly, Gorz, Lee etc....

Not only that Steve touched on some valid points, there has to be some change when your ratings are just dropping because the general fan is losing interest in a losing ballclub..

Ron!n
06-09-2010, 11:33 AM
Hopefully he is coming back around. But he's been terrible after that start. I think a lot of it is losing. This team just lacks the emotion that winners have and I'm not saying they don't have it in them, they just are expressing it and it prolly has to do with losing.
True but I dont see how benching players right when they start hitting is a good idea.

As far as Colvin goes, he needs more playing time and Steve Stone is right. Lou has a history of not giving young players enough playing time. Its happened with Pie and now its happening with Colvin. Either start him or send him down to AAA to see if his numbers hold up.

CUB5
06-09-2010, 11:37 AM
I'm not sure I agree with him, but man I miss Stoney broadcasting the games. It's just wrong seeing him on the South Side.

hoggin88
06-09-2010, 11:39 AM
His .900 OPS and 3 rbis in 4 June games say otherwise. Seems like it paid off for Lou. I'm all for blasting Lou, but when he does something that pays off, don't blast him for that.

4 games? Seriously that is just ridiculous. You can find 4 games, without any problem, that can make anyone look like a god.

How about: Soto's .973 OPS in his last 4 games says otherwise.

The fact that it happened to work out those last 4 games should not be the deciding factor on whether it was a good decision.

Marlin Bystro
06-09-2010, 11:40 AM
Not only that Steve touched on some valid points, there has to be some change when your ratings are just dropping because the general fan is losing interest in a losing ballclub..

Firing Lou, playing Colvin more and putting Cashner in the starting rotation would all be the right moves IMO.

ggross
06-09-2010, 11:52 AM
Firing Lou, playing Colvin more and putting Cashner in the starting rotation would all be the right moves IMO.

:clap:

ggross
06-09-2010, 11:57 AM
His .900 OPS and 3 rbis in 4 June games say otherwise. Seems like it paid off for Lou. I'm all for blasting Lou, but when he does something that pays off, don't blast him for that.

Again, I simply will not take this seriously. Hill has already proved to be a terrible offensive player. 4 games in June DO NOT change that. We already know what we have in Hill and it isn't good. Period.

cowboydoc45
06-09-2010, 12:17 PM
Firing Lou, playing Colvin more and putting Cashner in the starting rotation would all be the right moves IMO.

The more of your posts I read, the more I am starting to agree with you...


Again, I simply will not take this seriously. Hill has already proved to be a terrible offensive player. 4 games in June DO NOT change that. We already know what we have in Hill and it isn't good. Period.

I in no way see Hill as being a strong starter, but right now he has been the "hot hand". He is a little bit better defensively, and Lou has been saying if we can't score, we need to prevent more runs from scoring. Hill has a little better rate of catching would be base stealers. That being said, Soto should still be getting the majority of starts behind the plate, but I can see them giving him a day or two off from time to time, hell even a 70/30 split wouldn't be too out of the question.

Matchstckman
06-09-2010, 12:24 PM
I really don't see how people think Captain Can't-Frame-a-Pitch is a better defender than Soto.

BDawk4Prez
06-09-2010, 12:34 PM
I really don't see how people think Captain Can't-Frame-a-Pitch is a better defender than Soto.

Because framing a pitch is only part of a catchers game.

poodski
06-09-2010, 12:37 PM
I really don't see how people think Captain Can't-Frame-a-Pitch is a better defender than Soto.

Well since 2007 Hill has been worth 4 runs behind the plate where as Soto has been worth -5.

semperfi
06-09-2010, 12:51 PM
4 games? Seriously that is just ridiculous. You can find 4 games, without any problem, that can make anyone look like a god.

How about: Soto's .973 OPS in his last 4 games says otherwise.

The fact that it happened to work out those last 4 games should not be the deciding factor on whether it was a good decision.


Again, I simply will not take this seriously. Hill has already proved to be a terrible offensive player. 4 games in June DO NOT change that. We already know what we have in Hill and it isn't good. Period.

Never said that Hill was better than Soto. Only said you can't blame Lou for making the right call to start Hill. Hill has produced a .900 ops on the games he has been called to start this month. Lou made the right call to start him. Soto had 5..I repeat 5 RBIs in May. Here's their lines with RISP


Soto: Avg .143 Obp .400 Slg .143 Ops .543.
Hill: Avg .412 Obp .474 Slg .529 Ops 1.003

That's terrible.

scrubs101
06-09-2010, 01:24 PM
Well since 2007 Hill has been worth 4 runs behind the plate where as Soto has been worth -5.

awww sanp.

Matchstckman
06-09-2010, 01:28 PM
Well since 2007 Hill has been worth 4 runs behind the plate where as Soto has been worth -5.

Yeah going off the Fangraphs catcher defensive metrics that are flawed AT BEST and don't include pitch framing. While Hill is slightly better in most aspects, Soto is IMMENSELY better in framing and that's what makes him the better defensive catcher.

This article was posted on here a few months ago, but it backs up my point.

EDIT: I guess I should actually post the article.. http://www.anothercubsblog.net/2010-articles/april/2009-cubs-catcher-defense.html

ST.maarten'stop
06-09-2010, 01:34 PM
As much as I don't like Lou, Steve Stone is a bitter dickwad.

He might be a bitter dickwad but he made a valid point!!!

semperfi
06-09-2010, 01:35 PM
Yeah going off the Fangraphs catcher defensive metrics that are flawed AT BEST and don't include pitch framing. While Hill is slightly better in most aspects, Soto is IMMENSELY better in framing and that's what makes him the better defensive catcher.

This article was posted on here a few months ago, but it backs up my point.

EDIT: I guess I should actually post the article.. http://www.anothercubsblog.net/2010-articles/april/2009-cubs-catcher-defense.html


This is pretty cool stuff, but a bit controversial because the resulting run values Bill calculated were very high

That's all I needed to know that stat is garbage and holds no value in my book.. It's taking perception of what the umpire "might call" into account which holds no value.

DamnGoat
06-09-2010, 01:37 PM
He might be a bitter dickwad but he made a valid point!!!
Not exactly.

Where is Colvin supposed to play? The OF production hasn't been a problem. I'm all for him getting more AB's, but it's not like he can play 3B or 1B (the two positions that have been such a problem this season).

Matchstckman
06-09-2010, 01:43 PM
That's all I needed to know that stat is garbage and holds no value in my book..

The run values might be exaggerated, but the generalized results aren't. Soto is pretty good at framing. Hill is bad. The question comes to whether or not people think that holds a lot of weight or not in defensive metrics, but the problem is there is no agreed upon way of quantifying catcher defense yet. So the Fangraphs results can be just as scewed (sp?) as any others.

I hate to jump into the whole "I've seen Soto, I know what he can do" argument, but at worst he's an average defensive catcher. At best, he's pretty good. Koyie might be a little bit better, but even with a down month, Soto is such a ridiculously better hitter that giving Hill more than 20% of the starts (which is still probably too high) is absolutely ludicrous.

ST.maarten'stop
06-09-2010, 01:45 PM
Not exactly.

Where is Colvin supposed to play? The OF production hasn't been a problem. I'm all for him getting more AB's, but it's not like he can play 3B or 1B (the two positions that have been such a problem this season).

he can start more in Rf and rotate with the other Of he's earned it!!!

semperfi
06-09-2010, 01:45 PM
Not exactly.

Where is Colvin supposed to play? The OF production hasn't been a problem. I'm all for him getting more AB's, but it's not like he can play 3B or 1B (the two positions that have been such a problem this season).

I'm not sure the OF production hasn't been a problem. Fukudome's sub .750 ops since may 1st isn't exactly not a problem. Byrd was terrible in May sub .750 ops. Soriano was great in both April and May but has been pretty bad so far in June. Colvin has been great all year I don't see why he isn't starting every 3 out of 4 games. It's simple to just do a rotation with each player getting an off day every 4 games. One issue though is Fukudome and Colvin both can't hit Lefties. I wouldn't mind seeing Fukudome traded and replaced with a RH RF who gets spot starts..

cowboydoc45
06-09-2010, 01:46 PM
Not exactly.

Where is Colvin supposed to play? The OF production hasn't been a problem. I'm all for him getting more AB's, but it's not like he can play 3B or 1B (the two positions that have been such a problem this season).

Colvin could possibly transition to 1b, but the middle of the season isn't really the time to find out. The fact that he can play all 3 OF positions should make it a little easier to get some playing time, but at the same time, all of our OF have been putting up respectable numbers. Honestly, the only way Colvin gets more play time is if one of our OF is moved.

The one valid point that I did see that he made, although the timing is a little off, is that Colvin could be the LH run producing bat the team was looking for, but this year won't be the year he gets to fully prove it. My opinion is that if we are out of contention, either move one of our OF and let him play, or use him more often to spell guys in the OF to gauge his value out there for next season to see if we can make a move to free up a starting spot (if he shows he is worth it) next season.

semperfi
06-09-2010, 01:53 PM
The run values might be exaggerated, but the generalized results aren't. Soto is pretty good at framing. Hill is bad. The question comes to whether or not people think that holds a lot of weight or not in defensive metrics, but the problem is there is no agreed upon way of quantifying catcher defense yet. So the Fangraphs results can be just as scewed (sp?) as any others.

I hate to jump into the whole "I've seen Soto, I know what he can do" argument, but at worst he's an average defensive catcher. At best, he's pretty good. Koyie might be a little bit better, but even with a down month, Soto is such a ridiculously better hitter that giving Hill more than 20% of the starts (which is still probably too high) is absolutely ludicrous.

Defensive metrics are not great right now, but it seems like every year they are getting better and better. I personally, don't believe we can hold much value in that until the kinks get worked out. I don't think there is any question Soto is way better than Koyie. And I don't think going forward that Koyie should play more than Soto, but I do believe fans shouldn't be blasting Lou when he makes a call to play Koyie and Koyie actually produces. That to me is good management. Now if he went out and sucked, yes blast him away, but that's not how it played out..

hoggin88
06-09-2010, 01:54 PM
Never said that Hill was better than Soto. Only said you can't blame Lou for making the right call to start Hill. Hill has produced a .900 ops on the games he has been called to start this month. Lou made the right call to start him. Soto had 5..I repeat 5 RBIs in May. Here's their lines with RISP


That's terrible.

EDIT: Just saw the post above mine acknowledging Koyie shouldn't be getting played so much. But the good decision/bad decision part still applies.

Koyie has 20 PA's with RISP. Why are we even bringing up these stats? They are worthless to evaluate the players at this point.

In my opinion, just because Koyie had a few good games that doesn't mean it was a smart decision by Lou to give him so much playing time, which I'm sure he will continue to do. You can't applaud Lou's supposed ability to make decisions based on 16ish AB's after the fact. Fact is history shows Koyie sucks, therefore giving him a lot of playing time is not a smart idea.

We discussed before with the hypothetical situation: What if LaRussa pinch hit for Pujols with Aaron Miles in a big spot, and Miles just happened to come through. Should people be applauding Larussa's decision because it did in fact work out? I say hell no, he just got lucky and if I were a Cards fan I would hope he never made a decision like that again.

Mell413
06-09-2010, 01:56 PM
Well Soto has been pretty useless of late, since May 10th he has a 501 OPS. While Koyie Hill isn't good by any means he has been playing better than Soto lately with an 820 OPS over his last 6 games when he has been starting more.

I could have sworn he had hit better recently, but that's not really the point of the thread. Fact is that if we play Colvin one of our outfielders who have been productive will be sitting. The problem is first and third and not the outfield and Colvin playing or not playing will change that.

CubsFanSwope
06-09-2010, 01:57 PM
I'm with Steve Stone on this one. Honestly, would it be that hard to let Colvin play everyday? I mean yeah, we have 4 other outfielders who are playing pretty well. But what if Colvin played in left, then center, then right? Would it not be FAIR to let the other guys play in 70-80% of the games?

Not to mention... Fukudome is in his typical post-April slide. Soriano's one hot streak is the only reason his numbers look good. Byrd should play the most out of any of them, but he would be fine with 1-2 off days a week.

not true he has been one of if not the most consistant hitter on the team all year... that hot streak your refering to was more of a power spreak hitting those 5 homers in 4 games.... ill take him batting over 300 all year and throw in a few hot power streaks soriano needs to be in everyday right now so does byrd if your gonna sit anyone to play covin gotta be fukudome

cowboydoc45
06-09-2010, 02:02 PM
EDIT: Just saw the post above mine acknowledging Koyie shouldn't be getting played so much. But the good decision/bad decision part still applies.

Koyie has 20 PA's with RISP. Why are we even bringing up these stats? They are worthless to evaluate the players at this point.

In my opinion, just because Koyie had a few good games that doesn't mean it was a smart decision by Lou to give him so much playing time, which I'm sure he will continue to do. You can't applaud Lou's supposed ability to make decisions based on 16ish AB's after the fact. Fact is history shows Koyie sucks, therefore giving him a lot of playing time is not a smart idea.

We discussed before with the hypothetical situation: What if LaRussa pinch hit for Pujols with Aaron Miles in a big spot, and Miles just happened to come through. Should people be applauding Larussa's decision because it did in fact work out? I say hell no, he just got lucky and if I were a Cards fan I would hope he never made a decision like that again.

Please let him do that... it would be funny as hell seeing LaRussa escorted out of the park during the at bat by security, not for his safety, but because only employees are allowed in the dugout...

poodski
06-09-2010, 02:04 PM
Yeah going off the Fangraphs catcher defensive metrics that are flawed AT BEST and don't include pitch framing. While Hill is slightly better in most aspects, Soto is IMMENSELY better in framing and that's what makes him the better defensive catcher.

This article was posted on here a few months ago, but it backs up my point.

EDIT: I guess I should actually post the article.. http://www.anothercubsblog.net/2010-articles/april/2009-cubs-catcher-defense.html

That seems very very sketchy. I mean are we not referencing this with the ump that was calling the game? Are we not referencing it with the pitcher? Its well known that certain umps and certain pitchers get a much larger or smaller strike zone in comparison to others. Seems rather silly to count all of them the same when they are not.

Not only that but how is it even possible to have a difference of 22 runs by framing? That doesn't make any sense. Thats 71 more K's over 120 games. Or 67 walks. Just doesnt seem possible.

Especially when:

A) Pitchers opponents OPS was WORSE with Hill behind the plate .706 to .721
B) Pitchers K rate was higher with Hill behind the plate 8.06 to 7.80
C) Pitchers BB rate was slightly worse with HIll at 3.78 to 3.54

Still opponents had a lower OBP and a lower SLG

That just has no merit at all. Our pitchers performed better, and the ERA showed that as would the FIP I am sure with the higher K rate and lower HR rate with Hill behind the plate. That of course has transferred over to this year as well as pitchers ERA with Hill is .72 better than with Soto.

I see no empirical evidence that shows Soto is even close to Hill in terms of catcher defense.

poodski
06-09-2010, 02:05 PM
I could have sworn he had hit better recently, but that's not really the point of the thread. Fact is that if we play Colvin one of our outfielders who have been productive will be sitting. The problem is first and third and not the outfield and Colvin playing or not playing will change that.

Agreed. I think right now is the perfect time to try Soriano out at third. I mean what do we have to lose?

cowboydoc45
06-09-2010, 02:16 PM
Agreed. I think right now is the perfect time to try Soriano out at third. I mean what do we have to lose?

If we are conceeding the season, you are right, trying Soriano out at 3b or 1b, or even trying Colvin out there a time or two wouldn't hurt... but it would definately be a concession of the season.

poodski
06-09-2010, 02:24 PM
If we are conceeding the season, you are right, trying Soriano out at 3b or 1b, or even trying Colvin out there a time or two wouldn't hurt... but it would definately be a concession of the season.

I conceded a long time ago.

cowboydoc45
06-09-2010, 02:31 PM
I conceded a long time ago.

I say if we are still under .500 by the 15th, go into sell mode. I am right behind you on the concession, I just want to give myself a little more time to get my hopes up.

johnlh
06-09-2010, 02:41 PM
As much as I don't like Lou, Steve Stone is a bitter dickwad.

Steve sure does seem to carry a grudge and burn bridges. I liked him as a color man and did not like to see him leave. He should keep his advice to himself. Maybe he hopes to be a manager some day. He will not do it this way. I have not been happy with Lou this year. He appears to be burned out sometimes. I think this will be his last year as a Cub. Lou did lead us to two division championships. This has been a bad year all the way around. Loud cannot do anything about ARAM and Leee and if these guys do not hit we are lost. They are the two thumpers we thought we had. Byrd has been a very pleasant surprise. He is Mr.Hustle and can hit for power and is a good fielder even though he could play middle line backer for the Bears. He also brings a winning attitude. We have singles hitters in the middle infield and our power positions of first and third are producing nothing. Our starting pitchers are better than average and our closer and Marshall are as good as it gets. How many 1-2 run games have we lost? Wow! With Lee and Aram hitting we could add 10 more wins to our record. We cannot trade them so what do we do? Just hope they find their swing is all I can think of. Aram is on a new contract at $17 mil a year. I think he is hurt and will not admit it. When he swings he looks off balance and sometimes grimices as though in pain. Could be hand, finger, back? Lee runs like he is hurt. Sometimes with a slight limp. What is that about? He like Aram is not going to admit he is hurt and will soldier on. He is a mans man and a team leader. What does a manger do. We have no one in the system to replace Lee. We will have to find a new first baseman in free agency when the time comes after next year ulless he recovers. Once again our draft is top heavy in pitching. This has been our way for the past several drafts and probably the reason we have more promising pitching in the minors than position players. We are going to need some help with position players and may have to trade some of our good youg guys for that help.

Mell413
06-09-2010, 02:52 PM
Agreed. I think right now is the perfect time to try Soriano out at third. I mean what do we have to lose?

I'm not sure if that is a shot at me or not

poodski
06-09-2010, 02:56 PM
I'm not sure if that is a shot at me or not

Not at all. I don't really take shots at people on here, if I do it's unintentional, or you are BDawk.

I just dont like moving Colvin as he is so young, and inexperienced. Should Colvin be starting? Sure, but the OF isnt the problem on the team. There are 5 offensive holes on this team right now and none of those is coming from the OF. It just sucks when our 4th best offensive player right now can't play due to no where to put him. Colvin at first wouldnt be bad, but Lee isnt the bigger problem of the corners. Soriano has at least some experience in the IF. Would he fail at 3B? Most likely, but IMO what do we have to lose? 2 more games to the Pirates?

gocubs2118
06-09-2010, 03:01 PM
I say if we are still under .500 by the 15th, go into sell mode. I am right behind you on the concession, I just want to give myself a little more time to get my hopes up.

So you want to be sellers unless we go undefeated the next 6 games?

Mell413
06-09-2010, 03:12 PM
Not at all. I don't really take shots at people on here, if I do it's unintentional, or you are BDawk.

I just dont like moving Colvin as he is so young, and inexperienced. Should Colvin be starting? Sure, but the OF isnt the problem on the team. There are 5 offensive holes on this team right now and none of those is coming from the OF. It just sucks when our 4th best offensive player right now can't play due to no where to put him. Colvin at first wouldnt be bad, but Lee isnt the bigger problem of the corners. Soriano has at least some experience in the IF. Would he fail at 3B? Most likely, but IMO what do we have to lose? 2 more games to the Pirates?

Well I used the "what do we have to lose" argument when I suggested playing Fontenot over Theriot and I don't think you took kindly to that so that's probably why I thought you were taking a shot at me. Anyway I'm not ready to put Soriano at third yet. I only see two holes on the team and that's Aramis and Lee.

If they were going to move Soriano I'd consider moving him to 2B. I'm sure people will think less of me for saying this (Not that people think highly of me to begin with), but I still think this team has a shot. I still don't think Lee and Aramis can be this bad. I still think they can turn it around and if they can I think they can make a run. Combine a potential turn around from them and BABIPs from guys like Rasmus, Freese, and Ludwick coming down to earth I think we can make a run or at least play meaningful September games. If we had guys that could bring back a badass prospect like Smoak I'd be more tempted to sell, but we don't have those kind of guys so I don't see the point yet in conceeding the year.

mg420
06-09-2010, 03:16 PM
i would rather see the cubs try and trade fuke, let colvin/nady cover rf & keep tracy @ 3b. who knows, if tracy can produce @ 3b, maybe next year we could see tracy & nady starting at the corners in 2011.

cowboydoc45
06-09-2010, 03:19 PM
So you want to be sellers unless we go undefeated the next 6 games?

that is basically what I am saying. We are already losing to the worst teams in the league, might as well throw in the towel, and make it entertaining. Hendry and Lou are done after the season, that is my prediction

Mell413
06-09-2010, 03:20 PM
i would rather see the cubs try and trade fuke, let colvin/nady cover rf & keep tracy @ 3b. who knows, if tracy can produce @ 3b, maybe next year we could see tracy & nady starting at the corners in 2011.

If Tracy and Nady are our starting corner infielders the 2011 season is pretty much lost and they gain little value long term.

Tehjosha
06-09-2010, 03:24 PM
Well I used the "what do we have to lose" argument when I suggested playing Fontenot over Theriot and I don't think you took kindly to that so that's probably why I thought you were taking a shot at me. Anyway I'm not ready to put Soriano at third yet. I only see two holes on the team and that's Aramis and Lee.

If they were going to move Soriano I'd consider moving him to 2B. I'm sure people will think less of me for saying this (Not that people think highly of me to begin with), but I still think this team has a shot. I still don't think Lee and Aramis can be this bad. I still think they can turn it around and if they can I think they can make a run. Combine a potential turn around from them and BABIPs from guys like Rasmus, Freese, and Ludwick coming down to earth I think we can make a run or at least play meaningful September games. If we had guys that could bring back a badass prospect like Smoak I'd be more tempted to sell, but we don't have those kind of guys so I don't see the point yet in conceeding the year.

I agree with this, especially with the soft June schedule.

But, these guys have to start turing it around now. It doesn't get any easier after this month. And you're right, we probably don't have the players to bring back a Smoak-type prospect, but if we continue to fall, you have to deal these guys, ya know?

You can't risk guys like Lee and Lilly walking at the end of the year, and receiving no compensation for them, because you know that Hendry will more than likely not offer them arbitration.

I could also definitely see them trying to move Dome in order to get Colvin more playing time. But, kinda like you said, it's all contingent on these next couple of weeks. If we can get back to .500 or better, try to do something to improve and make a late season run. If not, I think it's best to conceed 2010 and look forward.

gocubs2118
06-09-2010, 03:26 PM
We have literally no one in the minors ready to play 1B next year if Lee leaves. Might as well try and see if Colvin can play it if there aren't any spots in the outfield. There also aren't a lot of options after this year in the FA market. Maybe we could take a chance on Carlos Pena but I'm sure most fans would just look at his average and think he sucks.

Mell413
06-09-2010, 03:41 PM
I agree with this, especially with the soft June schedule.

But, these guys have to start turing it around now. It doesn't get any easier after this month. And you're right, we probably don't have the players to bring back a Smoak-type prospect, but if we continue to fall, you have to deal these guys, ya know?

You can't risk guys like Lee and Lilly walking at the end of the year, and receiving no compensation for them, because you know that Hendry will more than likely not offer them arbitration.

I could also definitely see them trying to move Dome in order to get Colvin more playing time. But, kinda like you said, it's all contingent on these next couple of weeks. If we can get back to .500 or better, try to do something to improve and make a late season run. If not, I think it's best to conceed 2010 and look forward.

I think Lilly could get a longer term deal from someone in the off-season, so I think you could hold onto him if no one offered anything significant. I think lee is the only pitcher that is better than Lilly that will be on the open market.

I'd rather deal Lee then lose him for nothing, but who knows if he would approve a deal at this point. I'm assuming we wouldn't get more than a "B" level prospect so dealing him for a B level prospect doesn't get me excited.

I'm still skeptical about Colvin, but maybe the weight gain meant more than I originally thought. I'm assuming the team would have to pay at least half of Kosuke's remaining salary in order to move him so I'm not exactly excited about that either. It's kind of unfortunate that Lee and Aramis decided to suck this year because we could have one of the better offense in the NL if they hit their career averages. Instead of being in sell mode we could have been talking about adding someone like Uggla or Cliff Lee to make a late run. I don't mind moving Fukudome, but I would like it to be for a better reason than getting Colvin PT.

jiggin
06-09-2010, 04:35 PM
Steve Stone proves once again that he is more of a media moron than a analyst. Shooting from the hip with his attempt to start up a stir with the coming cross town series on the cusp...a white sox analyzer with apparently so much extra free time that he has completely over analyzed the sorry losing white sox and moved on to the other team in Chicago. Better check those other OF players stats Mr. Stone before spouting off at the mouth...and better check that team you watch daily for issue, unless they just plain suck so bad they can't make any changes to fix it.

Media monger...Steve stone has once again shown us rock bottom in his attempt to talk smack and draw attention to himself and the crosstown series. And he wonders why he is losing more and more respect around the league...first place ( something the white sox are far from) to look would be in the mirror moron.

Milnertime
06-09-2010, 06:31 PM
Steve Stone proves once again that he is more of a media moron than a analyst. Shooting from the hip with his attempt to start up a stir with the coming cross town series on the cusp...a white sox analyzer with apparently so much extra free time that he has completely over analyzed the sorry losing white sox and moved on to the other team in Chicago. Better check those other OF players stats Mr. Stone before spouting off at the mouth...and better check that team you watch daily for issue, unless they just plain suck so bad they can't make any changes to fix it.

Media monger...Steve stone has once again shown us rock bottom in his attempt to talk smack and draw attention to himself and the crosstown series. And he wonders why he is losing more and more respect around the league...first place ( something the white sox are far from) to look would be in the mirror moron.
This.


Stone is losing accountability left and right because every few months he takes a shot at the Cubs and more often than not, has been dead wrong in his "analysis."

He has a keen eye for situational baseball and is a good color commentator for that, but when he starts to delve into the opinion side of things he looks like a *******.

It's really a blessing that we get to hear Len and Bob every day...both are classy guys. Bob's comments on Soriano have been borderline, but at least it's someone from the team he's paid to cover.

Len and Bob > Hawk and Stone...by a lot.

weneedpitching
06-09-2010, 07:52 PM
This.


Stone is losing accountability left and right because every few months he takes a shot at the Cubs and more often than not, has been dead wrong in his "analysis."

He has a keen eye for situational baseball and is a good color commentator for that, but when he starts to delve into the opinion side of things he looks like a *******.

It's really a blessing that we get to hear Len and Bob every day...both are classy guys. Bob's comments on Soriano have been borderline, but at least it's someone from the team he's paid to cover.

Len and Bob > Hawk and Stone...by a lot.

Amazing that, at one point, Stone was thought of as a potential GM. What a tool he has turned out to be. Its a shame, really...he used to actually think before speaking.

cowboydoc45
06-09-2010, 08:15 PM
Amazing that, at one point, Stone was thought of as a potential GM. What a tool he has turned out to be. Its a shame, really...he used to actually think before speaking.

The sad thing is... he would probably have made a good GM...

Jilly Bohnson
06-09-2010, 08:34 PM
The sad thing is... he would probably have made a good GM...

Doubtful

Milnertime
06-09-2010, 09:06 PM
The sad thing is... he would probably have made a good GM...
Some of his comments on advanced statistics, and OBP in particular, makes me think he would leave a lot to be desired as a GM.

Jilly Bohnson
06-09-2010, 09:12 PM
Some of his comments on advanced statistics, and OBP in particular, makes me think he would leave a lot to be desired as a GM.

But he knows that a curveball is coming on an 0-2 count!

Dmac
06-09-2010, 09:13 PM
The sad thing is... he would probably have made a good GM...

I don't think so. His ideas are outdated, and he would have tried to turn this team into a small ball bunting team. I can't remember the trade exactly, but I remember around 2005 he thought the Cubs should trade Ramirez to Boston and get Bill Mueller back. There were a few other players involved, but it was ridiculous and got me thinking I was glad he wasn't our GM.

cowboydoc45
06-09-2010, 10:25 PM
Doubtful


Some of his comments on advanced statistics, and OBP in particular, makes me think he would leave a lot to be desired as a GM.


I don't think so. His ideas are outdated, and he would have tried to turn this team into a small ball bunting team. I can't remember the trade exactly, but I remember around 2005 he thought the Cubs should trade Ramirez to Boston and get Bill Mueller back. There were a few other players involved, but it was ridiculous and got me thinking I was glad he wasn't our GM.

I didn't say he would be a good one for our team... :P

windycityD
06-10-2010, 12:07 AM
We have literally no one in the minors ready to play 1B next year if Lee leaves. Might as well try and see if Colvin can play it if there aren't any spots in the outfield. There also aren't a lot of options after this year in the FA market. Maybe we could take a chance on Carlos Pena but I'm sure most fans would just look at his average and think he sucks.

Of course, the hot name & astronomical contract will be Adam Dunn. If we overspend at all this off season for a bat, there's your signing.

I am 100% in favor of Colvin getting a shot there. Of course, he'd have to play winter ball playing 1b exclusively. He has no reg playing time fit in the OF until Fukudome leaves.

Mell413
06-10-2010, 12:23 AM
Some of his comments on advanced statistics, and OBP in particular, makes me think he would leave a lot to be desired as a GM.

What did he say about OBP?

Milnertime
06-10-2010, 01:03 AM
What did he say about OBP?
I can't remember specifically, but it was something along the lines of saying people put too much importance on it and that speed was more valuable at the top of the order or something.

It was a few years ago, so I don't really remember.

windycityD
06-10-2010, 12:24 PM
I can't remember specifically, but it was something along the lines of saying people put too much importance on it and that speed was more valuable at the top of the order or something.

It was a few years ago, so I don't really remember.

In 2008, team OBP & taking walks were huge variables in why that team scored the way it did and as much as they did.

This team is simply a regression back to years more like '07 and '09, which were two seasons where we had prolonged & consistent scoring droughts and trouble with RISP. The one run losses up to this point this season are almost identical to what happened in 2007. As "good" as Soriano has been this season, he's simply nowhere near where he was in 2007 and has had slightly reduced playing time. Add to that Lee and A Ram's struggles, and this offense is even more flawed than 2007's was.

1908_Cubs
06-10-2010, 12:30 PM
In 2008, team OBP & taking walks were huge variables in why that team scored the way it did and as much as they did.

This team is simply a regression back to years more like '07 and '09, which were two seasons where we had prolonged & consistent scoring droughts and trouble with RISP. The one run losses up to this point this season are almost identical to what happened in 2007. As "good" as Soriano has been this season, he's simply nowhere near where he was in 2007 and has had slightly reduced playing time. Add to that Lee and A Ram's struggles, and this offense is even more flawed than 2007's was.

Uhhhhhhh.

2007: .898 OPS
2010: .908 OPS

toovey107
06-10-2010, 03:24 PM
I love how a lot of Cub's fans wanted Stone to be our GM :rolleyes:

windycityD
06-10-2010, 03:41 PM
Uhhhhhhh.

2007: .898 OPS
2010: .908 OPS

and OPS is one stat, which ironically, he's padded a bit via taking walks. Trust me, that's a good thing, despite the fact that we all know it wont last. But, he's also sitting twice a week minimum now and is regularly pulled late in games for D. That did not happen in 2007. His role is slightly diminished.

Hitting 6th for most of the season, his overall impact has been imho muted. You could say the same for Geo when he was hot and hitting friggin' 8th. Would we have perhaps 3-4 more wins had Lou moved both of them up in early-mid May when it was clear that A Ram and Lee were horrible? Very likely.

Lou has had two glaring problems here: line ups and use of bullpens. Always has, always will. Not ironically, both have killed us at times this season.

Doogolas
06-10-2010, 05:40 PM
and OPS is one stat, which ironically, he's padded a bit via taking walks. Trust me, that's a good thing, despite the fact that we all know it wont last. But, he's also sitting twice a week minimum now and is regularly pulled late in games for D. That did not happen in 2007. His role is slightly diminished.

Hitting 6th for most of the season, his overall impact has been imho muted. You could say the same for Geo when he was hot and hitting friggin' 8th. Would we have perhaps 3-4 more wins had Lou moved both of them up in early-mid May when it was clear that A Ram and Lee were horrible? Very likely.

Lou has had two glaring problems here: line ups and use of bullpens. Always has, always will. Not ironically, both have killed us at times this season.

Which stat is worse... exactly? His speed? Because his speed rating is higher this year than it's been since 2005. So... yeah. You're just blatantly wrong. Soriano has been struggling the last week, week and a half but that's quite literally it this year. This is, so far, probably the best he's been as a Cub,.

semperfi
06-10-2010, 07:27 PM
I know everyone thinks speed isn't great, but god damn am I tired of being slow on the base-paths. I'll take a little less OBP for more speed. Look at today's game for evidence. He went 1st to 3rd on a bunt. And caused a terrible throw scoring the winning run. Stuff like that doesn't show up in the stats, but it's very underrated IMO. I'm not saying everyone needs to be fast, but we do need a guy or two that can get on base and wreak havoc on the base-paths.

I believe we are bottom 5 in Stolen bases if I'm not mistaken.