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View Full Version : Gorzelanny to the Pen, Z Pitches on Wednesday



Ron!n
05-30-2010, 02:21 PM
Lou just said it.

Apparently Gorzo wasnt happy about it and theyre going to start him in long relief first to get him used to it.

MLBfan24
05-30-2010, 02:29 PM
Why should he be happy when he has performed better than Well of late. Also, we might actually need Gorzelanny's left handed arm with Lilly leaving at the end of the year.We probably don't even need Wells with Cashner and Jackson potentially starting next year.

semperfi
05-30-2010, 02:32 PM
Why should he be happy when he has performed better than Well of late. Also, we might actually need Gorzelanny's left handed arm with Lilly leaving at the end of the year.We probably don't even need Wells with Cashner and Jackson potentially starting next year.

Maybe you missed Wells pitch 8 1/3 innings against the Rangers. Or maybe you missed Gorzelanny being tapped for 7 runs last time he pitched.

gocubs2118
05-30-2010, 02:52 PM
I'm guessing Russell will be going down tomorrow. I don't see the need in having 4 LHRP.

ty_smitty21
05-30-2010, 03:10 PM
Lou just said it.

Apparently Gorzo wasnt happy about it and theyre going to start him in long relief first to get him used to it.

What I'm not happy about... is your video signature that slows my computer down every time you post. And I even have high speed! lol

As for the move... this is the move everybody knew was coming. We're going to call Cashner up on Monday. So the real question is, what 2 relievers get the boot? Grabow has easily been our worst reliever. Howry has been ok in his few outings, so I doubt he gets released. Hopefully we can fake DL Grabow and maybe send Stephens down, even though he's been good.

Ron!n
05-30-2010, 03:11 PM
What I'm not happy about... is your video signature that slows my computer down every time you post. And I even have high speed! lol

As for the move... this is the move everybody knew was coming. We're going to call Cashner up on Monday. So the real question is, what 2 relievers get the boot? Grabow has easily been our worst reliever. Howry has been ok in his few outings, so I doubt he gets released. Hopefully we can fake DL Grabow and maybe send Stephens down, even though he's been good.
Ad block it :shrug:

Str1fe5
05-30-2010, 03:11 PM
I really wish Grabow would accept a minor league assignment instead of Russell, who has been pretty decent.

As far as Gorzelanny, he should be moved to pure LOOGY duties out of the pen. I'd have moved Silva but given the last starts for each SP this isn't much of a surprise.

Also, just because he goes to the pen now does not exclude him from being in the rotation next year or even later in the year - injuries and trades do happen, and I'm still not sold this team is a contender this year, so you could very easily see Lilly/Lee/Fukudome/Theriot/Marshall (yes Marshall, he's pitched lights out and he could be a starter in a pinch, he could be of some value) get traded closer to the deadline. If we moved all of those guys I'd think we could get our farm seriously stacked and very deep in short order.

I bet this means Russell gets demoted to AAA and Cashner comes up to replace him.

Marmol/Cashner/Stevens/Howry/Marshall/Gorelanny/Grabow

I still feel like the Cubs should be shopping Lilly as much as possible over the next 2 months, regardless of their position in the WC/Divisional race - I don't know how much of a difference there is between Lilly and Gorzelanny over the next 4 months is. I'm sure Lilly is better but by how much? Also would Lilly be a Type A?

Str1fe5
05-30-2010, 03:12 PM
What I'm not happy about... is your video signature that slows my computer down every time you post. And I even have high speed! lol

As for the move... this is the move everybody knew was coming. We're going to call Cashner up on Monday. So the real question is, what 2 relievers get the boot? Grabow has easily been our worst reliever. Howry has been ok in his few outings, so I doubt he gets released. Hopefully we can fake DL Grabow and maybe send Stephens down, even though he's been good.

I don't think anyone but Russell gets bumped... We have 12 pitchers now, Zambrano is just switching with Gorzo from the roto / pen. So I think we just switch Russell for Cashner.

Str1fe5
05-30-2010, 03:19 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5234046

Sounds like there might be some confusion as to exactly when Cashner is called up, but it is imminent. Wonder why they would wait? Maybe they want to have Cashner throw on back to back days and then get an off day before getting called up?

My prediction: Back problems for Grabow and a DL stint.

ty_smitty21
05-30-2010, 03:20 PM
If we send down a guy with a 2.33 era for a guy who has given up more runs than innings pitched... we are dumber than I thought we were. I really won't be surprised if the Cubs give Grablow a fake DL.

Fritters54
05-30-2010, 05:29 PM
What I'm not happy about... is your video signature that slows my computer down every time you post. And I even have high speed! lol


This.

Mell413
05-30-2010, 05:33 PM
I still would have rather sent Silva down to the bullpen. With Hendry's job on the line you would hope he would have the best relievers up here. Grabow has been unlucky this year, but he never should have been signed to that deal in the first place. I say it's Russell that's probably sent down and that shouldn't be the case.

semperfi
05-30-2010, 05:37 PM
I still would have rather sent Silva down to the bullpen. With Hendry's job on the line you would hope he would have the best relievers up here. Grabow has been unlucky this year, but he never should have been signed to that deal in the first place. I say it's Russell that's probably sent down and that shouldn't be the case.

I know send your pitcher to the bullpen that wins games. Makes a whole lot of sense to me.

Mell413
05-30-2010, 05:42 PM
I know send your pitcher to the bullpen that wins games. Makes a whole lot of sense to me.

I still don't think he's one of our 5 best starting pitchers. I could prove why, but you probably wouldn't listen anyway. So I'm not going to waste my time.

semperfi
05-30-2010, 05:45 PM
I still don't think he's one of our 5 best starting pitchers. I could prove why, but you probably wouldn't listen anyway. So I'm not going to waste my time.

It isn't about having the best stuff...it is about producing. There isn't one stat you can show me that says Silva is not best Win producing pitcher we have. We are 9-1 when Silva takes the mound. Show me any stat that matters more than that.

redwhitenblue
05-30-2010, 05:53 PM
It isn't about having the best stuff...it is about producing. There isn't one stat you can show me that says Silva is not best Win producing pitcher we have. We are 9-1 when Silva takes the mound. Show me any stat that matters more than that.
The likelihood it continues matters.

It matters a lot actually.

TrialNError04
05-30-2010, 06:45 PM
Only three more earned runs today for Grabow, yup he absolutely deserves a place in the bullpen.

rcal10
05-30-2010, 08:27 PM
Can't the Cubs just cut Grabow and take the loss in salary. It is one thing to make a mistake by overpaying a guy, but it is another to keep him on the team just because you signed him. Russell deserves to stay in the majors. Grabow needs to be cut or dealt, if anyone will have him.
As for those who still do not like Silva, I think it is time to give him his due. The man has been good. He deserves to be starting. He will falter some, but for now he has been good. For one thing he missed bats Saturday. He did so at his record pace. Maybe changing his delivery has been a huge advantage to him and he will be effective all season. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt while he is succeeding? Instead of waiting for the other shoe to drop, enjoy what he has done and realize how lucky the Cubs are that he has been so good.

Matchstckman
05-30-2010, 08:32 PM
It isn't about having the best stuff...it is about producing. There isn't one stat you can show me that says Silva is not best Win producing pitcher we have. We are 9-1 when Silva takes the mound. Show me any stat that matters more than that.

I like how you use the phrase Win-producing instead of using wins. But, let's face it, you are using Wins.

semperfi
05-30-2010, 08:34 PM
The likelihood it continues matters.

It matters a lot actually.

Do you believe that Silva would be the worst starter from here to the end of the season? I don't.

Its not like every one of our pitchers is a stud. I'll take my chances of Silva continuing to win games over Tommy G winning games. He's an average Left Hander, nothing special.

semperfi
05-30-2010, 08:35 PM
I like how you use the phrase Win-producing instead of using wins. But, let's face it, you are using Wins.

In the end, Wins are what matter. No matter how you break it down. I'll take someone who finds a way to win over someone who has amazing stuff but never wins.

Yes there is other means to breaking stuff down besides wins. I know that. And Tom doesn't have anything that stands out to me. Really I think he's useless on this ball club. If I was Jim(I'm not), I'd trade him before he gets ruined in the pen. At least get some prospects from him..

1908_Cubs
05-30-2010, 08:36 PM
Do you believe that Silva would be the worst starter from here to the end of the season? I don't.

Its not like every one of our pitchers is a stud. I'll take my chances of Silva continuing to win games over Tommy G winning games. He's an average Left Hander, nothing special.
And Silva is better than an average right hander, nothing special?

Because he's not, despite the amazingly out of character, lucky start of the season. Remember how Marquis started out like a champ last year? Then went back to normal?

Expect this to happen with Silva.

1908_Cubs
05-30-2010, 08:37 PM
In the end, Wins are what matter. No matter how you break it down. I'll take someone who finds a way to win over someone who has amazing stuff but never wins.

That's ****ing ********.

Blame the offense in that situation. Not the pitcher. Amazing stuff = better pitcher. Period. Have you learned nothing? You are smarter than to try to even make a case for wins as a statistic. C'mon dude.

semperfi
05-30-2010, 08:40 PM
That's ****ing ********.

Blame the offense in that situation. Not the pitcher. Amazing stuff = better pitcher. Period. Have you learned nothing? You are smarter than to try to even make a case for wins as a statistic. C'mon dude.

Silva continuously puts his team in a position to win. How can you say he's not worthy of being in our rotation on that alone. Tom does not do that. Will Silva fall back a little. I'm sure. I mean he's been outstanding. But right now, I see no signs of it. And there would be no reason to move him to the pen, because like I said he is winning. And he is Better than Gorzelanny.

Amazing stuff = doesn't always equal winning

1908_Cubs
05-30-2010, 08:45 PM
Silva continuously puts his team in a position to win. How can you say he's not worthy of being in our rotation on that alone. Tom does not do that. Will Silva fall back a little. I'm sure. I mean he's been outstanding. But right now, I see no signs of it. And there would be no reason to move him to the pen, because like I said he is winning. And he is Better than Gorzelanny.

I never said to move him to the pen. You just said Gorzy was an average lefty, like Silva wasn't an average righty. They're both average at best. One of them just so happens to be way out performing his ability right now. And for now, sure, ride Silva. But that **** is going to end. It will end abruptly when it does.

He is in no way better than Gorzy when he's pitching like he normally does. They're fairly equal, honestly, when they're not. You can't let 10 starts cloud you from what Silva's done over his career. Which, frankly, is average. He's too old to be "figuring it out". It's flukey. It'll come back to normal.

1908_Cubs
05-30-2010, 08:46 PM
Silva continuously puts his team in a position to win. How can you say he's not worthy of being in our rotation on that alone. Tom does not do that. Will Silva fall back a little. I'm sure. I mean he's been outstanding. But right now, I see no signs of it. And there would be no reason to move him to the pen, because like I said he is winning. And he is Better than Gorzelanny.

Amazing stuff = doesn't always equal winning

Sure. But when amazing stuff doesn't win, it's not because of the pitcher. Which is the point. In that case, it's the offense not winning the game. Which is why using wins to base anything a pitcher has done, is stupid.

semperfi
05-30-2010, 08:54 PM
I'm gonna put it this way. Out of 10 games so far. Silva has allowed more than 4 runs twice. Both those games we still won. One game he didn't get a decision, the other he was pitching with a huge lead. The one game we lost that he started, he gave up 1 run. Really, Silva's been nothing short of phenomenal this year and there is NO reason to kick him to the curb. Tom has been good almost as equally as good. He's not been helped with run support, but he often gives up the lead early in the ball game, which will only make the offense press. Really I don't blame the offense for Tom Gorzelanny's short comings I blame him. Silva hasn't given up a 1st inning run. He's only given up the first run twice. Only 1 run innings. He's not putting his team in the hole. And really that helps out a lot. This isn't really put together well, I was just throwing stuff down.

semperfi
05-30-2010, 08:56 PM
Sure. But when amazing stuff doesn't win, it's not because of the pitcher. Which is the point. In that case, it's the offense not winning the game. Which is why using wins to base anything a pitcher has done, is stupid.

I disagree. This one of the exact cases. Tom Gorzelanny, like you said, equal talent. But Silva's winning games and Gorzelanny's not. I don't see how you can't use it right there.

semperfi
05-30-2010, 08:59 PM
Also, some people forget, Silva is coming from the AL to the NL. It's a helluva lot easier to pitch in the NL. Not to mention, not many players have seen Silva. So we might as well ride that horse as long as we can.

Once again, it's not who's the best pitcher. It's who is producing. Silva is producing, there is NO DOUBT about that.

1908_Cubs
05-30-2010, 09:01 PM
I'm gonna put it this way. Out of 10 games so far. Silva has allowed more than 4 runs twice. Both those games we still won. One game he didn't get a decision, the other he was pitching with a huge lead. The one game we lost that he started, he gave up 1 run. Really, Silva's been nothing short of phenomenal this year and there is NO reason to kick him to the curb. Tom has been good almost as equally as good. He's not been helped with run support, but he often gives up the lead early in the ball game, which will only make the offense press. Really I don't blame the offense for Tom Gorzelanny's short comings I blame him. Silva hasn't given up a 1st inning run. He's only given up the first run twice. Only 1 run innings. He's not putting his team in the hole. And really that helps out a lot. This isn't really put together well, I was just throwing stuff down.


You, again, are simply put, ignoring everything I said. I never said kick Silva to the Curb. I said they're equal pitchers on most years. Which they are. Silva is not going to keep this up, you keep ignoring this, as well.

Secondly, you are blaming Gorzy for the offense struggling. Yes. It's Tom's fault. All tom for the offense not scoring. What a dick. The offense not scoring. "Puts pressure on the offense"? **** that, it's a B.S. excuse. The offense hasn't helped Gorzy at all this year. You're again, using one of the worst judges of pitchers to judge the two.

Lastly, I'm okay with Gorzy going to the pen over Silva. I've never said anything about that. I've only said you better realize that Mr. Silva is going to be coming back to earth lately, and that for some reason, you seem to think 10 years of proof of Silva is over ridden by 10 starts, or, just aren't considering them. I'm not sure which it is. If I'm Hendry I'm trading Silva right now while his stock is higher than normal. And I'm keeping Gorzy in the rotation. However, since I'm not sure it's plausible. I just know for a fact Silva won't keep this up.

semperfi
05-30-2010, 09:29 PM
You, again, are simply put, ignoring everything I said. I never said kick Silva to the Curb. I said they're equal pitchers on most years. Which they are. Silva is not going to keep this up, you keep ignoring this, as well.

Secondly, you are blaming Gorzy for the offense struggling. Yes. It's Tom's fault. All tom for the offense not scoring. What a dick. The offense not scoring. "Puts pressure on the offense"? **** that, it's a B.S. excuse. The offense hasn't helped Gorzy at all this year. You're again, using one of the worst judges of pitchers to judge the two.

Lastly, I'm okay with Gorzy going to the pen over Silva. I've never said anything about that. I've only said you better realize that Mr. Silva is going to be coming back to earth lately, and that for some reason, you seem to think 10 years of proof of Silva is over ridden by 10 starts, or, just aren't considering them. I'm not sure which it is. If I'm Hendry I'm trading Silva right now while his stock is higher than normal. And I'm keeping Gorzy in the rotation. However, since I'm not sure it's plausible. I just know for a fact Silva won't keep this up.


I know you aren't saying kick him to the curb, that was to Mell whatever his name is. I never said Silva was going to keep this up. I actually said I don't expect him to. But I don't expect him to be god awful like many people on here do.

Try only the last 4 years. Before that Silva was a very good back of the rotation guy. As is he this year, except he's been our best pitcher.

And you can't tell me putting your team in a whole early doesn't put pressure on the offense. I mean you can tell me, but I don't buy it.

Lastly, if we aren't trying to win this year. I completely agree. Trade Silva to try to get it going for the next couple years. I don't think we should keep Gorzelanny though either. Trade both of them and then bring up Cashner. If he needs to go back down, then you call up Jay Jackson or someone else.


Off Topic: By the way, Go Flyers. Buck the flackhawks.

Ron!n
05-31-2010, 03:21 AM
Giving you a chance to win isnt necessarily valued by the Win statistic.

Your pitcher could "give you a chance to win" by pitching into the 8th every game without allowing a run yet still end up losing.

Basically what you're using is quality starts and Gorzelanny has 6 of those in 9 starts while Silva has 8 in 10 starts. Not that big of a difference. Only difference is Silva's have translated into wins.

rcal10
05-31-2010, 08:03 AM
You, again, are simply put, ignoring everything I said. I never said kick Silva to the Curb. I said they're equal pitchers on most years. Which they are. Silva is not going to keep this up, you keep ignoring this, as well.

I've only said you better realize that Mr. Silva is going to be coming back to earth lately, and that for some reason, you seem to think 10 years of proof of Silva is over ridden by 10 starts, or, just aren't considering them. I'm not sure which it is. If I'm Hendry I'm trading Silva right now while his stock is higher than normal. And I'm keeping Gorzy in the rotation. However, since I'm not sure it's plausible. I just know for a fact Silva won't keep this up.

Really you do not know these things "FOR A FACT". It is your opinion he will not keep this up. Your opinion is solidly based, that is for sure. But there are times when someone actually has everything come together and has a great year. Before the game on Saturday wouldn't you have said you know for a fact Silva will not strike out more than 8 guys in the game he pitched? After all he never did that in his 10 year career. Well he did it. While I agree he has basically been a average pitcher most of his career, and bad the last two, I disagree that you know FOR A FACT he will not keep this up. Take the last two years off of Silva's career, when he was not healthy, and his totals are not that far off from what Lilly was when the Cubs signed him. Hasn't Lilly been better with the Cubs then he was even his previous 8 years? Isn't it possible that Rothchild changed his arm angle and he is actually better that way? I am not saying he is going to pitch 200 innings, have a whip of 1.15, with an era in the low 3's, with 160 K's and win 18 games. But I am saying he might actually be pretty solid and it is time to give him a little respect for what he has done and stop waiting for him to fall on his face.

semperfi
05-31-2010, 09:59 AM
Giving you a chance to win isnt necessarily valued by the Win statistic.

Your pitcher could "give you a chance to win" by pitching into the 8th every game without allowing a run yet still end up losing.

Basically what you're using is quality starts and Gorzelanny has 6 of those in 9 starts while Silva has 8 in 10 starts. Not that big of a difference. Only difference is Silva's have translated into wins.

Way to state the obvious. All I'm saying is, it was obvious to me that Gorzelanny was going to the pen. And for anyone that says Silva should go to the pen doesn't really get the concept of baseball.

poodski
05-31-2010, 10:13 AM
And Silva is better than an average right hander, nothing special?

Because he's not, despite the amazingly out of character, lucky start of the season. Remember how Marquis started out like a champ last year? Then went back to normal?

Expect this to happen with Silva.

Why is that exactly? Its pretty obvious that Silva is pitching much much differently than he usually does. Its pretty obvious the Rothschild has done something to change how he approaches hitters.

For his career he has thrown FB's at a rate of 75% this season it sits at 57% For his career his changeup has been thrown about 13% of the time this year its 30%. I dont think he can keep an ERA just above 3, but I think he can keep that FIP just below 4, and give us a good mid 3's ERA for the season.

1908_Cubs
05-31-2010, 12:18 PM
Why is that exactly? Its pretty obvious that Silva is pitching much much differently than he usually does. Its pretty obvious the Rothschild has done something to change how he approaches hitters.

For his career he has thrown FB's at a rate of 75% this season it sits at 57% For his career his changeup has been thrown about 13% of the time this year its 30%. I dont think he can keep an ERA just above 3, but I think he can keep that FIP just below 4, and give us a good mid 3's ERA for the season.

10 games does not erase 10 years of averageness. I refuse to believe that. Sure he's been doing something different this year. Whether it's just hitters haven't adjusted to him being in the NL, or to him throwing the changeup less, or something else, I'm not sure. However you can't sit here and think that this is going to keep up based on his career. Because I don't think that's the case.

rcal10
05-31-2010, 01:30 PM
10 games does not erase 10 years of averageness. I refuse to believe that. Sure he's been doing something different this year. Whether it's just hitters haven't adjusted to him being in the NL, or to him throwing the changeup less, or something else, I'm not sure. However you can't sit here and think that this is going to keep up based on his career. Because I don't think that's the case.

I can accept this much better than your previous posts. At least you are not saying you know he will not keep it up "FOR A FACT". I also donot think he will keep it up. But through the years there have been pitchers who just have a good year. They are basically average pitchers who for some reason or another just have a good year. As an example, Steve Stone won the Cy young one year. He was 78-79 going into the year he won the Cy Young. His career era was 3.97. But that year he went 25-7 with an era of 3.23. There are several other examples. Piniero comes to mind most recently. Why can't Silva, who was 60-64 coming into this year with an era just over 4.6 have a year where his era is in the mid to upper 3's? Remember many of the years he has pitched he did so in the AL. When you factor in the change of leagues and then add the fact the Cubs have done things to change him a little, you may get a pleasant surprise. If you take Silva's numbers, especially if you do not count the last two years when he was hurt and brutal, he is very similar to Lilly, career wise. Like I say, I am not certain he will hold up, but while he does I will be happy to see it and not assume he will fall. Instead of waiting for the other shoe to drop I choose to enjoy what he has done for the Cubs so far.