PDA

View Full Version : Is Carlos Marmol the best closer in all of baseball right now?



THE_G.O.A.T.
05-26-2010, 02:20 PM
Its a simple question....any thoughts?

CubsRule08
05-26-2010, 02:22 PM
Are you serious?

Wrigleyboy25
05-26-2010, 02:25 PM
No. Soriano or Bell at this point.

cubs0707
05-26-2010, 02:29 PM
no but hes really good

cowboydoc45
05-26-2010, 02:35 PM
simple answer, no. Soriano, Bell, Rivera...

Rndy
05-26-2010, 02:37 PM
Maybe the best strike out closer. In a few years now tho who knows?

turnaround3
05-26-2010, 02:39 PM
Tough question to answer but I'll put it this way:

I would rather have Marmol coming into a save situation than any other reliever in baseball. Including the aforementioned Soriano and Bell. And since this isn't the postseason, Rivera too.

THE_G.O.A.T.
05-26-2010, 02:41 PM
It just seems to me that hitters have a tough time even making contact with his pitches. He makes some very good hitters look very silly.

Brad IBCB
05-26-2010, 02:42 PM
Personally, right now I think he is. When he can locate his fastball he is unhittable, and right now he is locating that pitch well.

cheerio
05-26-2010, 02:44 PM
No, jsut haveing a better than average year, and there are others beating him right now

Ron!n
05-26-2010, 02:46 PM
No, hes the G.O.A.T.

Rndy
05-26-2010, 02:55 PM
No, jsut haveing a better than average year, and there are others beating him right now

Almost an 18k/9 is better then average? Damn didn't know everyone was so good.

jiggin
05-26-2010, 02:56 PM
only a cubs fan would think that...

Milnertime
05-26-2010, 02:57 PM
Maybe stuff wise, he is. His control is pretty atrocious, though.

I'm not really nervous when he's out there, even after he's walked a few guys because he usually finds it again pretty quickly.

He's in the discussion, to be sure.

A K/9 over 17 is damn impressive....and so is a HR/9 under 1. And despite his walk trouble, his WHIP is a very solid 1.14.

majestic
05-26-2010, 02:58 PM
simple answer, no. Soriano, Bell, Rivera...

ever heard of joe nathan? injured or not, he is the best.

redwhitenblue
05-26-2010, 03:00 PM
only a cubs fan would think that...

While he has to prove it for a longer period of time, statistically he's not that far off of the best.

He actually has a better WHIP than Bell, better numbers than the likes of Soria and Rivera this year, etc.

DamnGoat
05-26-2010, 03:01 PM
I still don't like that he gives up so many BB's. When he's striking guys out at this rate it doesn't matter that much, but at some point it's gonna come back to bite him.

Milnertime
05-26-2010, 03:01 PM
ever heard of joe nathan? injured or not, he is the best.
Unless Nathan is pitching "right now," he doesn't really fit the parameters of the question.

By that logic, I'll say Bruce Sutter because retired or not, he's the best.

cowboydoc45
05-26-2010, 03:03 PM
Unless Nathan is pitching "right now," he doesn't really fit the parameters of the question.

By that logic, I'll say Bruce Sutter because retired or not, he's the best.

Well, retired we also have to account for Lee Smith, Bert Blyleven, and, of course, Dennis Eckersly

Milnertime
05-26-2010, 03:03 PM
I still don't like that he gives up so many BB's. When he's striking guys out at this rate it doesn't matter that much, but at some point it's gonna come back to bite him.
Maybe.

Probably not.

He's been walking guys his whole career and it's never really hurt him too much. Last year was kind of rough at times, but it's not like he was terrible then, either. As long as opponents hit below .200 against him, he can have a 5+ BB/9 and get away with it.

1908_Cubs
05-26-2010, 03:06 PM
only a cubs fan would think that...

Honestly, there's very little to argue against it. He had a rough season last year, but the two seasons prior he was absolutely dominant. While not the "closer", I think it would be hard pressed to really find that many better relievers in all of baseball those two seasons. At this point in 2010, he's got the most insane k/9 rate I've ever seen at this point in the season, it's ****ing over 17. That is ludicrous. He gives up little over one runner per inning. Honestly, make an argument against him being the best. And nothing about the history, we're talking right now. Mo Rivera has been fantastic, we know, but these are some numbers he'd struggle with.

Looking at Soriano, he's got more saves (better team) but his K/9 is only around 7, his K:BB ration is nearly the same, he gives up as many hits per inning, with similar HR/9 rates. Heath Bell, who's name I've seen, has a H.9 over 8, and a career number of 8.0, he gives up runners. He walks more than Soriano (less than Marmol) and his K/9 is good but still far lower than Marmol.

I'm not saying Marmol is the best. Only that I find it hard pressed to make an argument about the contemporary, which is what this thread is asking, for someone who's better than Marmol.

DamnGoat
05-26-2010, 03:11 PM
Maybe.

Probably not.

He's been walking guys his whole career and it's never really hurt him too much. Last year was kind of rough at times, but it's not like he was terrible then, either. As long as opponents hit below .200 against him, he can have a 5+ BB/9 and get away with it.
So you're expecting him to keep up this K rate all season?

If he does then the BB's won't matter one bit, but if/when it comes down those BB's could get him in more trouble, that's all I'm saying.

And I think last season is more evidence of the BB's hurting him than anything else. It wasn't a terrible season, but it sure as hell wasn't great either.

Kirel
05-26-2010, 03:13 PM
This year so far it's, hands down, the Dodgers Jon Broxton. 14 K/9, 0.96 BB/9, and a 0.00 HR/9 with a .404 BABIP when he does allow balls in play.

Marmol is probably having a better season than a number of other names that have come up though.

1908_Cubs
05-26-2010, 03:13 PM
So you're expecting him to keep up this K rate all season?

If he does then the BB's won't matter one bit, but if/when it comes down those BB's could get him in more trouble, that's all I'm saying.

And I think last season is more evidence of the BB's hurting him than anything else. It wasn't a terrible season, but it sure as hell wasn't great either.

Perhaps not a 17. But he can keep up an 11-13, with ease. Since he's already posted numbers over 11 before, it's not far fetched he keeps up a fantastic K/9 rate. And in the closers position as opposed to the "fireman" role, he'll be able to throw more pitches slightly out of the zone to get swinging strikes as he'll come in 98% of the time with bases empty and zero out.

1908_Cubs
05-26-2010, 03:13 PM
This year so far it's, hands down, the Dodgers Jon Broxton. 14 K/9, 0.96 BB/9, and a 0.00 HR/9 with a .404 BABIP when he does allow balls in play.

Marmol is probably having a better season than a number of other names that have come up though.

Ahhhh forgot Broxton.

cubsneedmiracle
05-26-2010, 03:14 PM
Top 5 sure.

CubbieSteve
05-26-2010, 03:14 PM
He's probably top 5

Kirel
05-26-2010, 03:17 PM
Top 5 sure.
In terms of performances so far by closers it's probably

1. Broxton
2. Soria
3. Brian Wilson(of all people)
4. Marmol
5. Bell

cubsneedmiracle
05-26-2010, 03:20 PM
In terms of performances so far by closers it's probably

1. Broxton
2. Soria
3. Brian Wilson(of all people)
4. Marmol
5. Bell

completely agree.

Milnertime
05-26-2010, 03:23 PM
So you're expecting him to keep up this K rate all season?

If he does then the BB's won't matter one bit, but if/when it comes down those BB's could get him in more trouble, that's all I'm saying.

And I think last season is more evidence of the BB's hurting him than anything else. It wasn't a terrible season, but it sure as hell wasn't great either.
I didn't even mention his K rate for that very reason. It's likely going to come down.

However, if he's not giving up hits, he can walk people all he wants and get away with it most of the time.

Ron!n
05-26-2010, 03:34 PM
In terms of performances so far by closers it's probably

1. Broxton
2. Soria
3. Brian Wilson(of all people)
4. Marmol
5. Bell
No mention of Soriano? Or are you going by stuff?

Kirel
05-26-2010, 03:39 PM
No mention of Soriano? Or are you going by stuff?
Soriano has alot of saves, but his K/9 is disappointing, his FIP and xFIP is the weakest of the bunch, his HR/FB is low, his LOB% is high, his GB% is low, I'm just not that impressed.

Put him on any other team and we aren't even discussing him right now.

majestic
05-26-2010, 04:01 PM
Unless Nathan is pitching "right now," he doesn't really fit the parameters of the question.

By that logic, I'll say Bruce Sutter because retired or not, he's the best.

ok then right now marmol is the best. end of topic.

Heyyo1900
05-26-2010, 04:02 PM
We could have 4-5 more wins if we had another Marmol and possibly 10 more if we had another Koyie Hill.

PaceIsTheTrick
05-26-2010, 04:03 PM
In terms of performances so far by closers it's probably

1. Broxton
2. Soria
3. Brian Wilson(of all people)
4. Marmol
5. Bell

It seems like Valverde would have to be mentioned at some point in the top 5.

OH....and Trevor Hoffman.

davidfox11
05-26-2010, 04:05 PM
all in all its safe to say Marmol is not the best

Kirel
05-26-2010, 04:15 PM
It seems like Valverde would have to be mentioned at some point in the top 5.

OH....and Trevor Hoffman.
You need to look at these guys a bit closer.

Hoffman isn't even closing anymore and has been terrible, and Valverde is, honestly, pitching rather poorly. He's just getting lucky(.144 BABIP)

PaceIsTheTrick
05-26-2010, 04:19 PM
You need to look at these guys a bit closer.

Hoffman isn't even closing anymore and has been terrible, and Valverde is, honestly, pitching rather poorly. He's just getting lucky(.144 BABIP)

I was kidding completely about Hoffman.

Yes, Valverde doesn't miss alot of bats. But if the question is who is the best closer right now, and there is one who has only given up 2 runs all season (1 ER) and has pitched 19 consectutive scoreless innings, I will take his dumb luck in 9th inning until it runs out.

Kirel
05-26-2010, 04:25 PM
I was kidding completely about Hoffman.

Yes, Valverde doesn't miss alot of bats. But if the question is who is the best closer right now, and there is one who has only given up 2 runs all season (1 ER) and has pitched 19 consectutive scoreless innings, I will take his dumb luck in 9th inning until it runs out.
I won't, cause I don't care about ERA.

He hasn't pitched well.

PaceIsTheTrick
05-26-2010, 04:29 PM
I won't, cause I don't care about ERA.

He hasn't pitched well.

I am assuming the MLB players attempting to score runs on him in the 9th inning for the last 2 months would disagree….considering they have all failed.

Kirel
05-26-2010, 04:31 PM
I am assuming the MLB players attempting to score runs on him in the 9th inning for the last 2 months would disagree….considering they have all failed.
They have failed because of a combination of bad luck and defense, not Valverde.

Seriously, .144 BABIP and 4.15 BB/9. Dude's ERA is going to jump to like 4 over a weeks span eventually.

Cubs420
05-26-2010, 04:33 PM
when he is throwing strikes, hes Top 3 no doubt.

duce5858
05-26-2010, 05:12 PM
Papelbon anyone?

redwhitenblue
05-26-2010, 05:22 PM
Soriano has alot of saves, but his K/9 is disappointing, his FIP and xFIP is the weakest of the bunch, his HR/FB is low, his LOB% is high, his GB% is low, I'm just not that impressed.

Put him on any other team and we aren't even discussing him right now.I have to ask why Soria is on your list in terms of 'right now'.

4 HR's in 17 IP, a .240 BAA (not bad, but not near the best) and a good but not GREAT BB/9.

I haven't looked at the BABIP or deeper, this is just a surface view, but I don't see how he's ahead of Marmol on the list.

Kirel
05-26-2010, 05:26 PM
I have to ask why Soria is on your list in terms of 'right now'.

4 HR's in 17 IP, a .240 BAA (not bad, but not near the best) and a good but not GREAT BB/9.

I haven't looked at the BABIP or deeper, this is just a surface view, but I don't see how he's ahead of Marmol on the list.
Becuase it was an off the cuff list? He's carrying a 14ish K/9 and a better BB/9 than Marmol.

redwhitenblue
05-26-2010, 05:30 PM
Becuase it was an off the cuff list? He's carrying a 14ish K/9 and a better BB/9 than Marmol.
Yeah, he's got Marmol in the BB dept. (I think most pitchers do).



If anyone in this thread decides to go more in depth later on, perhaps they can check that out.

I'm a mixture of too lazy and not caring enough about the topic to do so.

Doogolas
05-26-2010, 06:09 PM
In terms of performances so far by closers it's probably

1. Broxton
2. Soria
3. Brian Wilson(of all people)
4. Marmol
5. Bell

Other than Broxton I'd put Marmol 2nd. Soria and Wilson have been great but I think Marmol's performed better. :shrug: Maybe Zumaya. But I think Marmol has outperformed Soria and Wilson.

semperfi
05-26-2010, 06:10 PM
In terms of performances so far by closers it's probably

1. Broxton
2. Soria
3. Brian Wilson(of all people)
4. Marmol
5. Bell

It's a shame you don't have Valverde up on the list. 1 ER with a .86 WHIP over 19.2 innings is easily enough to make top five. He would have to complete implode for his ERA to sky above 4. Also, considering he has hasn't had an ERA over 4 since 2006, it's unlikely that he's going to be doing it in Comerica, a pitchers park.

Throw any of those 6 in a hat and pull one out. I'd be equally fine with any one of them.

semperfi
05-26-2010, 06:12 PM
Other than Broxton I'd put Marmol 2nd. Soria and Wilson have been great but I think Marmol's performed better. :shrug: Maybe Zumaya. But I think Marmol has outperformed Soria and Wilson.

Can you elaborate on this? What are you saying about Zumaya?

redwhitenblue
05-26-2010, 06:23 PM
It's a shame you don't have Valverde up on the list. 1 ER with a .86 WHIP over 19.2 innings is easily enough to make top five. He would have to complete implode for his ERA to sky above 4. Also, considering he has hasn't had an ERA over 4 since 2006, it's unlikely that he's going to be doing it in Comerica, a pitchers park.

Throw any of those 6 in a hat and pull one out. I'd be equally fine with any one of them.I believe he explained Valverde later on in the thread, maybe I misread though.

Vandelay16
05-26-2010, 06:58 PM
If he had control then he would be.

northsider
05-26-2010, 07:07 PM
He def. has the nastiest stuff amongst other closer's but, I wouldn't say he was the best right now.

Doogolas
05-26-2010, 07:08 PM
Can you elaborate on this? What are you saying about Zumaya?

Ah, I forget he's not closing. But in terms of relievers, he's been a ****ing MONSTER this year. He's on pace to pitch like 100 innings of relief. He's walking almost nobody and striking out 9.5+ guys per 9IP. Seriously 29:5 K:BB. That's amazing.

He's been insanely good.

northsider
05-26-2010, 07:09 PM
Not to get lost but, Valverde is having a ****ing ridiculous year and I would like to add I also am so glad I don't have to see this bafoon close games out this year.

But, I think he if I were going as of right now he would atop my list.

semperfi
05-26-2010, 07:15 PM
I believe he explained Valverde later on in the thread, maybe I misread though.

He didn't really explain it. He gave no reasons behind it. He said he walks 4.5/9 and his BABIP is low. But what he fails to accept is that he isn't allowing runs to touch the plate. And I don't care what stat you throw at me. The only stat that matters, is whether or not he's letting guys touch home plate. And he isn't. Therefore right now, he is one of the best closers in baseball. You can't deny that. We're not talking about what's gonna happen in the future. I mean if you want to base everyone future performance off averages. Then the best pitchers should start sucking and the worst pitchers should start being un-hittable. It's stupid logic.

Paints
05-26-2010, 07:28 PM
He walks batters way to much to be the best.

semperfi
05-26-2010, 07:30 PM
He walks batters way to much to be the best.

Walking batters mean nothing when you don't let them score.

Paints
05-26-2010, 07:35 PM
Walking batters mean nothing when you don't let them score.

That is true, But putting runners on base isnt a good thing. How many blown saves does he have and out of that many how many times did he walk people.

semperfi
05-26-2010, 07:39 PM
That is true, But putting runners on base isnt a good thing. How many blown saves does he have and out of that many how many times did he walk people.

He has one. It was the second game of the season. He gave up 3 hits to KC. Since then he hasn't been touched for a run.

redwhitenblue
05-26-2010, 07:46 PM
He didn't really explain it. He gave no reasons behind it. He said he walks 4.5/9 and his BABIP is low. But what he fails to accept is that he isn't allowing runs to touch the plate. And I don't care what stat you throw at me. The only stat that matters, is whether or not he's letting guys touch home plate. And he isn't. Therefore right now, he is one of the best closers in baseball. You can't deny that. We're not talking about what's gonna happen in the future. I mean if you want to base everyone future performance off averages. Then the best pitchers should start sucking and the worst pitchers should start being un-hittable. It's stupid logic.
So basically, all that matters is ERA then?


Forget all other stats. Wins, ERA, Saves. Yay.

Kirel
05-26-2010, 07:46 PM
He didn't really explain it. He gave no reasons behind it. He said he walks 4.5/9 and his BABIP is low. But what he fails to accept is that he isn't allowing runs to touch the plate. And I don't care what stat you throw at me. The only stat that matters, is whether or not he's letting guys touch home plate. And he isn't. Therefore right now, he is one of the best closers in baseball. You can't deny that. We're not talking about what's gonna happen in the future. I mean if you want to base everyone future performance off averages. Then the best pitchers should start sucking and the worst pitchers should start being un-hittable. It's stupid logic.
He's the Livan Hernandez of closers right now. He's not been good, he's probably having his worst year in a long while.

I really, really don't care about runs, earned runs, or ERA all that much.

semperfi
05-26-2010, 07:48 PM
1. Broxton (been hittable)
2. Soria (has been very hittable)
3. Brian Wilson(of all people) (shouldn't be on the list. yeah he misses bats, but also gives up runs and hits/walks)
4. Marmol (been wild)
5. Bell (has been very hittable.)

All of these guys have their flaws. It doesn't matter how good your stuff is if you aren't performing as good as someone else. Valverde is the best Closer off performance alone.

semperfi
05-26-2010, 07:48 PM
He's the Livan Hernandez of closers right now. He's not been good, he's probably having his worst year in a long while.

I really, really don't care about runs, earned runs, or ERA all that much.

Usually you are on top of things. But you are so far off of this. I didn't know you could be performing your job so well but be having the worst year in a long while. I mean I guess a .86 WHIP and 19 scorless innings mean nothing? I thought the point of the game was to not allow the other team to score runs? Maybe I missed the memo.

semperfi
05-26-2010, 07:50 PM
So basically, all that matters is ERA then?


Forget all other stats. Wins, ERA, Saves. Yay.

What stats? You mean the .86 Whip. The .45 ERA. 11/12 on save opportunities. I mean gosh those stats suck.. It doesn't matter if you have a high strikeout rate if you can't stop them from scoring.

I'm not saying he has the nastiest stuff. That's not what this discussion is about. It's about who is the best closer. You can't deny that it's Valverde right now.


Performance > Skill
EVERY TIME.

redwhitenblue
05-26-2010, 07:59 PM
What stats? You mean the .86 Whip. The .45 ERA. 11/12 on save opportunities. I mean gosh those stats suck.. It doesn't matter if you have a high strikeout rate if you can't stop them from scoring.

I'm not saying he has the nastiest stuff. That's not what this discussion is about. It's about who is the best closer. You can't deny that it's Valverde right now.


Performance > Skill
EVERY TIME.
So in your estimation, Edwin Encarnacion is a better 3B than Aramis Ramirez because, up to this point in a short season, he has better basic statistics.

Skill determines future performance. You take Valverde from here on out, others will take different guys who are better and the others will have a better closer.

Milnertime
05-26-2010, 08:10 PM
What stats? You mean the .86 Whip. The .45 ERA. 11/12 on save opportunities. I mean gosh those stats suck.. It doesn't matter if you have a high strikeout rate if you can't stop them from scoring.

I'm not saying he has the nastiest stuff. That's not what this discussion is about. It's about who is the best closer. You can't deny that it's Valverde right now.


Performance > Skill
EVERY TIME.
You are really wearing your *** on this one.

Valverde has performed well due to good luck so far this season. He's due for some regression. Pitchers don't often sustain BABIPs under .150 for a whole season.

He's been walking more guys this year while striking out less. He's getting an unsustainable amount of ground balls. Hitters are swinging at less pitches out of the zone, making more contact with pitches in the zone, and appear to be seeing the ball out his hand fairly well. They just haven't squared him up yet, but chances are very good that they will.

Also, his FIP is 3.72. He's stranding 96.% of all base runners. It's just not possible to maintain that without a K rate above 9.

Seems like he's getting some help from his defense and a good deal of luck.

semperfi
05-26-2010, 08:11 PM
So in your estimation, Edwin Encarnacion is a better 3B than Aramis Ramirez because, up to this point in a short season, he has better basic statistics.

Skill determines future performance. You take Valverde from here on out, others will take different guys who are better and the others will have a better closer.

So Valverde doesn't have skill? I'll take anyone this year, that is performing like Valverde is this year. You can have all the skill you want, if you aren't going to perform.

And what a lame comparison, Encarnacion/Ramirez don't even relate to Valverde at all.

redwhitenblue
05-26-2010, 08:13 PM
So Valverde doesn't have skill? I'll take anyone this year, that is performing like Valverde is this year. You can have all the skill you want, if you aren't going to perform.

And what a lame comparison, Encarnacion/Ramirez don't even relate to Valverde at all.
Valverde's skill this year isn't on par with the other guys listed. Not even really close. He's in for an inevitable falter.

You tend to go back and forth between super old-school ******** coaching and new style. This is not one of your better arguments.

semperfi
05-26-2010, 08:20 PM
You are really wearing your *** on this one.

Valverde has performed well due to good luck so far this season. He's due for some regression. Pitchers don't often sustain BABIPs under .150 for a whole season.

He's been walking more guys this year while striking out less. He's getting an unsustainable amount of ground balls. Hitters are swinging at less pitches out of the zone, making more contact with pitches in the zone, and appear to be seeing the ball out his hand fairly well. They just haven't squared him up yet, but chances are very good that they will.

Also, his FIP is 3.72. He's stranding 96.% of all base runners. It's just not possible to maintain that.

Seems like he's getting some help from his defense and a good deal of luck.


You can throw all those stats at me. But I'll take his performance as making him top 5 closers in the bigs right now, if not the best.

semperfi
05-26-2010, 08:22 PM
Valverde's skill this year isn't on par with the other guys listed. Not even really close. He's in for an inevitable falter.

You tend to go back and forth between super old-school ******** coaching and new style. This is not one of your better arguments.


Whether he's in for an inevitable falter or not, he's still easily top 5 and the best performing closer in the game right now.

And why do I have to believe in one way? I think of it more as a hybrid type of thinking. There are certain new stats I like, and many that I think are worthless.

But what matters to me when it comes to a pitcher is whether or not he allows runners to touch the plate. Inherited or his own.

northsider
05-26-2010, 08:24 PM
I don't know how this argument is going any farther with everyone of you failing to realize as of RIGHT NOW Valverde luck or not is if not the best a top 3 closer right now. What will it be like later who knows but the question was specific as to right now so any luck or anything can be tossed out.

semperfi
05-26-2010, 08:26 PM
I don't know how this argument is going any farther with everyone of you failing to realize as of RIGHT NOW Valverde luck or not is if not the best a top 3 closer right now. What will it be like later who knows but the question was specific as to right now so any luck or anything can be tossed out.

At least I'm not the only one that realized that's what the question is.

Either way, I see where everyone is coming from, I just don't agree. And it's alright to not agree.

Kirel
05-26-2010, 08:33 PM
Ugh I forgot how much I hate this forum.

northsider
05-26-2010, 08:34 PM
At least I'm not the only one that realized that's what the question is.

Either way, I see where everyone is coming from, I just don't agree. And it's alright to not agree.

Yeah I too admit his luck is great this year and a regression is most likely coming, but he has been pretty ****ing lights out whether it's luck or defense.

northsider
05-26-2010, 08:37 PM
Ugh I forgot how much I hate this forum.

I can see exactly what you mean in the fact that technically he has been far from the best due to his peripherals suggest another park or surrounding defense it could be different as well as a turn in luck. I just think if you go by the right now he's still been impressive all that stuff aside.

Solid Snake
05-26-2010, 09:00 PM
funny stuff

semperfi
05-26-2010, 09:25 PM
Yeah I too admit his luck is great this year and a regression is most likely coming, but he has been pretty ****ing lights out whether it's luck or defense.

That's why stats only tell part of the story. People that go strictly by statistics will fail to accept that sometimes less skilled players perform better. No one cares who is the most skilled. At least I don't. I care about who is performing and who isn't.

poodski
05-26-2010, 09:37 PM
Best closer right now is probably Will Ohman.

northsider
05-26-2010, 09:44 PM
Best closer right now is probably Will Ohman.

All kidding aside he has been pretty good for the O's.

poodski
05-26-2010, 09:54 PM
All kidding aside he has been pretty good for the O's.

Damn good.

Him and CPatt are carrying that team....to a still last place season.

northsider
05-26-2010, 09:56 PM
Damn good.

Him and CPatt are carrying that team....to a still last place season.

HAHAHAH...

Sort of like Wuertz did last year I am still shrugging my shoulders on the move to let him go.

Rndy
05-27-2010, 10:55 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/turning-the-dial-to-ridiculous/

Fangraphs showing Marmol some love.

Doogolas
05-27-2010, 11:14 PM
I don't think I could love the title of that article any more. Ever.

Guny Highway
05-27-2010, 11:20 PM
He is well on his way to become a Lee Smith lights out type closer. His only flaw is his control, when he is on he is unhittable. His ERA and K total's would indicate that he is, if he masters his control and composure he has that kind of potential.

ty_smitty21
05-27-2010, 11:25 PM
He strikes out 2 batters per inning. His walks are down. His only 2 blown saves were both pretty cheap blown saves.. especially the 2nd one. He's on pace to shatter strikeout records. Since taking over for Gregg, he is 22-24 in saves. It's hard to say you'd rather have anybody else over him right now.

Ron!n
05-28-2010, 03:29 AM
Ugh I forgot how much I hate this forum.

:laugh2:

The question isnt who has the best performance so far this year. Its who the best closer in baseball is. Which means you took past performance, likelihood of repeating it and how dominant he is. Valverde has the past performance hes not going to keep it up and hes not dominating anyone.

Doogolas
05-28-2010, 04:11 AM
I thought this was a pretty ****ing badass quote from Marmol:


"He told me to focus a little more and throw strikes," Marmol said.

And the right-hander did just that, getting Ramirez out on three straight sliders.

It's only the end of May, but told that he had a chance at Gagne's mark, Marmol grinned. Hitters beware.

"We'll see if I can break that record," Marmol said.

I like that he's not trying to say he doesn't care about the record. Or doesn't think it's cool. And that he wants it.

Kirel
05-28-2010, 11:04 AM
:laugh2:

The question isnt who has the best performance so far this year. Its who the best closer in baseball is. Which means you took past performance, likelihood of repeating it and how dominant he is. Valverde has the past performance hes not going to keep it up and hes not dominating anyone.
Well, we are all really talking performance, it's just different measures.

I'm looking at the stuff the pitcher actually controls.

Semperfi and compnay are looking at stuff the hitters and fielders control. The least important component in Valverde's ERA is Valverde himself.

semperfi
05-28-2010, 11:51 AM
Well, we are all really talking performance, it's just different measures.

I'm looking at the stuff the pitcher actually controls.

Semperfi and compnay are looking at stuff the hitters and fielders control. The least important component in Valverde's ERA is Valverde himself.

Isn't part of pitching relying on your defense to make plays behind them? I'm just trying to think from your perspective. If his BABIP is going to rise because that's "just the way it is" then technically his Strikeouts should go back up because that's what he's done in the past. Not to mention Valverde led the NL in saves what 2 of the last 3 years if I'm not mistaken.

BDawk4Prez
05-28-2010, 11:52 AM
Best in baseball.

Short answer - no
Long answer - Hell no, are you ****ing high?

PC answer - It doesn't appear to be so.

semperfi
05-28-2010, 11:53 AM
:laugh2:

The question isnt who has the best performance so far this year. Its who the best closer in baseball is. Which means you took past performance, likelihood of repeating it and how dominant he is. Valverde has the past performance hes not going to keep it up and hes not dominating anyone.

It is all in how you look at it. If you're going off just skills or execution of skills. I prefer to think players that execute better are better pitchers. And this year no one is executing their skills better than Valverde.

Kirel
05-28-2010, 12:02 PM
Isn't part of pitching relying on your defense to make plays behind them? I'm just trying to think from your perspective. If his BABIP is going to rise because that's "just the way it is" then technically his Strikeouts should go back up because that's what he's done in the past. Not to mention Valverde led the NL in saves what 2 of the last 3 years if I'm not mistaken.
Yes, part of it is relying on yoru defense. That said, having a good defense does not make a pitcher better. It may make his ERA better though.

Saves are irrelevent, stupid stats. Don't care about them.

I do expect his strikeouts to go up, but even when they do he's not near elite level.

At the moment Valverde is executing quite poorly for him, and very poorly in relation to over a dozen other relievers, but getting good results. Think of it as getting on the highway, closing your eyes, and pegging the throttle. That you didn't hit anything still doesn't make you a good driver.

Doogolas
05-28-2010, 01:01 PM
Best in baseball.

Short answer - no
Long answer - Hell no, are you ****ing high?

PC answer - It doesn't appear to be so.

I don't know that it's even a little bit possible to go that far with it B-Dawk. He's been, at worst, the third best reliever in baseball this year.

BDawk4Prez
05-28-2010, 01:12 PM
I don't know that it's even a little bit possible to go that far with it B-Dawk. He's been, at worst, the third best reliever in baseball this year.

The question was, "Is he the best in baseball", not, "is he around the top 3 in baseball?"

So, my answer fit the OP question corectly, right?

hoggin88
05-28-2010, 01:58 PM
That's why stats only tell part of the story. People that go strictly by statistics will fail to accept that sometimes less skilled players perform better. No one cares who is the most skilled. At least I don't. I care about who is performing and who isn't.

So basically you are saying whoever has the best ERA in the MLB at any given time is the best pitcher in the MLB at that time? Because that's what I'm gathering.

What if a closer was giving up nothing but hard line drives that were getting drilled straight at the outfielders or run down and caught by them in the gaps because the fielders were really fast. Say this closer didn't strike out a single guy, and gave up nothing but these bullets and maybe some bombs that got robbed by the outfielders climbing the wall, yet to this point hadn't given up an earned run. By your logic, you would be saying that guy is the best closer in baseball right now since no one had crossed the plate on him. Would that really be your opinion?

*And for the record, despite the Marmol sig, no I'm not declaring him to be the best closer in baseball. This season he has been probably top 3 in my opinion, but not the best.

poodski
05-28-2010, 02:04 PM
So basically you are saying whoever has the best ERA in the MLB at any given time is the best pitcher in the MLB at that time?

Hence Will Ohman.

hoggin88
05-28-2010, 02:12 PM
Hence Will Ohman.

:nod:

Ohman isn't their closer though is he?

poodski
05-28-2010, 02:18 PM
:nod:

Ohman isn't their closer though is he?

I believe he actually is now.

writ42
05-28-2010, 11:07 PM
Marmol is having a great season for sure and definitely merits top 5, if not top 3 consideration. As for saying if he is the best, I believe that honor belongs to Mariano Riviera and has belonged to him and will continue to do so until he retires most likely.

Doogolas
05-29-2010, 02:55 AM
The question was, "Is he the best in baseball", not, "is he around the top 3 in baseball?"

So, my answer fit the OP question corectly, right?

Not at all. He's arguably the best. I mean, I think it's he or Broxton and it's REALLY ****ing close. Because while Broxton isn't walking anyone, the ball is going in play almost 20% more of the time than against Marmol. And if you can't put the ball in play it makes that bat players swing pretty damn useless.

At least that would be how I argue the point. Both are having GREAT, GREAT seasons. Picking one is damn near impossible.

ReJo
05-29-2010, 01:12 PM
Not at all. He's arguably the best. I mean, I think it's he or Broxton and it's REALLY ****ing close. Because while Broxton isn't walking anyone, the ball is going in play almost 20% more of the time than against Marmol. And if you can't put the ball in play it makes that bat players swing pretty damn useless.

At least that would be how I argue the point. Both are having GREAT, GREAT seasons. Picking one is damn near impossible.

:nod:
I was just about to say if I could pick any 1 reliever in baseball to start a bullpen with it would be between Marmol and Broxton and I still don't know who I would pick?

Yagyu+
05-30-2010, 02:17 PM
From Knuckleballs (http://knuckleballsblog.wordpress.com/2010/05/25/number32/):


At age 23, Carlos Marmol made his major league début with the Cubs as a starter. He was mostly dreadful in 2006, finishing with an ERA over 6.00. Since then, he’s settled in as the setup man and now the closer for the Cubs and for the most part has been very good. Since 2007, he’s averaged over 11 strikeouts per nine innings in each season, finishing in the top ten each season; this year, his strikeout numbers have been absolutely stupid. Here’s a summary of Marmol’s rate statistics for his career, followed by his totals:


Season G / GS IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 BABIP LOB% GB% HR/FB FIP xFIP
2006 19 / 13 77.0 6.90 6.90 1.64 0.265 70.2% 28.9% 11.8% 6.47 6.22
2007 59 / 0 69.1 12.46 4.54 0.39 0.276 91.0% 31.3% 3.9% 2.72 3.67
2008 82 / 0 87.1 11.75 4.23 1.03 0.185 78.1% 34.6% 9.9% 3.62 3.71
2009 79 / 0 74.0 11.31 7.91 0.24 0.262 77.7% 35.8% 2.6% 4.06 5.13
2010 21 / 0 22.2 17.47 5.56 0.40 0.376 90.9% 34.3% 7.7% 2.06 2.27

Season ERA SV / BS IP TBF H HR BB IBB HBP SO H/9
2006 6.08 0 / 0 77.0 356 71 14 59 2 5 59 8.3
2007 1.43 1 / 1 69.1 285 41 3 35 3 4 96 5.3
2008 2.68 7 / 2 87.1 348 40 10 41 3 6 114 4.1
2009 3.41 15 / 4 74.0 335 43 2 65 3 12 93 5.2
2010 1.59 9 / 2 22.2 96 13 1 14 0 3 44 5.3

Marmol has always had issues throwing strikes, particularly in 2009. He got away with it (mostly) by not allowing home runs and being a little lucky. What really strikes me though is that with such high strikeout and walk rates, there is a lot of walking at the end of plate appearances against Marmol (either to first base or back to the dugout).

A couple of weeks ago, Dave A. at FanGraphs noted that Brandon Morrow, Clayton Kershaw, and Rich Harden lead starting pitchers in keeping the ball out of play via walks, strikeouts, and hit batters. They had “Ball-Not-In-Play” percentages in the lows 40s. Check out Marmol’s career, and in particular, his start to 2010:


Season Team TBF Ball-Not-In-Play
2006 Cubs 356 125 35.1%
2007 Cubs 285 138 48.4%
2008 Cubs 348 164 47.1%
2009 Cubs 335 173 51.6%
2010 Cubs 96 61 63.5%

This year he’s moving away from his fastball and moved toward his slider more and more. He’s also throwing harder (almost a full mile per hour faster than any previous season) and batters are not making contact with anything. O-Contact % is the percentage of pitches that are hit that aren’t strikes (that a hitter swings at), and Z-contact % is the percentage of pitches that are hit that are strikes. Hitters are hitting only 60% of the pitches they swing at, 20% below the major league average; he also leads the league by almost 5%.


Season Team O-C% Z-C% Contact%
2006 Cubs 51.3% 84.6% 77.7%
2007 Cubs 44.9% 80.1% 67.0%
2008 Cubs 51.3% 82.5% 73.6%
2009 Cubs 52.8% 81.6% 73.0%
2010 Cubs 35.2% 71.7% 59.4%
2010 ML Avg 65.6% 88.2% 80.9%

It’s easy to see from his Pitchf/x data that Marmol might not have any idea where the ball is going when he throws it. It’s almost impossible to keep up what he’s doing, but after watching him walk a Ranger and strike three out in the 9th inning during Sunday’s game, it sure seemed to me that some good major league hitters simply don’t have much of a chance against him right now.

{Called Strike Zone Graph}

CuseDude87
05-31-2010, 01:32 PM
Marmol the pitcher: sick, nasty stuff

Marmol the person: sick, nasty perv

4cubs
06-08-2010, 10:53 PM
Definitely the best...

1908_Cubs
06-08-2010, 11:12 PM
Definitely the best...

Why the **** haven't I put you on my ignore list yet?

Nevermind. Rectifying that right now.

redwhitenblue
06-08-2010, 11:14 PM
Definitely the best...
Shocker, coming in after a loss to knock down a Cubs player.


Let's blame Marmol instead of the anemic offense or the senile manager continuing to put Ryan Theriot at lead off.

Mell413
06-08-2010, 11:18 PM
Shocker, coming in after a loss to knock down a Cubs player.


Let's blame Marmol instead of the anemic offense or the senile manager continuing to put Ryan Theriot at lead off.

Marmol deserves some blame. I don't think any less of him after tonight though. Lou's lineup didn't stand much of a chance against Gallardo tonight.

redwhitenblue
06-08-2010, 11:21 PM
Marmol deserves some blame. I don't think any less of him after tonight though. Lou's lineup didn't stand much of a chance against Gallardo tonight.
He doesn't deserve a total pass.

But he doesn't deserve old threads to be grabbed about him to basically mock his failure. He doesn't fail much, so bringing this up screams of "I'm waiting to ***** about a good player."

And frankly, because of WHO the poster is, it's automatically a shittastic post. I'm still fairly certain that poster is a fan of another team pretending to be a Cubs fan to try and stir **** up.

4cubs
06-10-2010, 02:06 AM
He doesn't deserve a total pass.

But he doesn't deserve old threads to be grabbed about him to basically mock his failure. He doesn't fail much, so bringing this up screams of "I'm waiting to ***** about a good player."

And frankly, because of WHO the poster is, it's automatically a shittastic post. I'm still fairly certain that poster is a fan of another team pretending to be a Cubs fan to try and stir **** up.First of all I am a Cub's fan.

Second of all, the thread is not that old. Maybe in Cub years (which I assume are like dog years).

Third, it's called sarcasm, so lighten-up Francis (Stripes reference). If the Cubs and this type of comment gets you this wound up before mid-June, I hope you have your cardiac doctor on speed dial.

Fourth, this type of thread is automatically homer-iffic (kind of like shittastic, but different). Granted, we Cubs fans don't have much to be proud of these days. So convincing each other we at least have the best closer is probably therapeutic for some of you. Sorry if I disturbed your equilibrium.

And finally, deflecting and making light of the failures of the Cubs is probably healthier than getting upset.

Doogolas
06-10-2010, 02:16 AM
A bad game means he needs to be *****ed about? Oh. Also, the pitch selection, WHOEVER made the decisions is a complete dumbass. Marmol threw I think 4 sliders. Four ****ing sliders. That's unacceptable.

The only pitch he SHOULD have gone fastball was 3-2 on the last hitter and he went slider. Terrible decisions by all involved.