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View Full Version : Agree with JVG? Need Tough Guys to win Titles?



Sixerlover
05-22-2010, 10:16 PM
While watching this Boston - Orlando blowout JVG and Mark Jackson made a good point. Not only do the Celtics have the will to win and they are competitors, but they also have a lot of tough players who seem like angry guys. From Perkins, to Wallace, to KG and then the competitiveness of Pierce and Rondo. Whereas the Magic have a lot of humble nice guys on their team (Dwight, JJ, Vince etc)

My question is: Is acquiring gritty, tough players a need if you want to have a championship caliber team? Or are the Celtics just one unique example of how to build a team?

JordansBulls
05-22-2010, 10:25 PM
While watching this Boston - Orlando blowout JVG and Mark Jackson made a good point. Not only do the Celtics have the will to win and they are competitors, but they also have a lot of tough players who seem like angry guys. From Perkins, to Wallace, to KG and then the competitiveness of Pierce and Rondo. Whereas the Magic have a lot of humble nice guys on their team (Dwight, JJ, Vince etc)

My question is: Is acquiring gritty, tough players a need if you want to have a championship caliber team? Or are the Celtics just one unique example of how to build a team?

It helps, but what is more important is that you need mentally tough players. Basically even when down, they won't give up.

jetsfan28
05-22-2010, 10:30 PM
You at least need a couple. But every playoff team I could think of has more than one of those guys, except for the Magic who only have Barnes.

TheWatcher34
05-22-2010, 10:34 PM
individual toughness integrated into team chemistry, yes.

Kakaroach
05-22-2010, 10:35 PM
Tough as in mentally tough yes I agree. But the Lakers didn't have a physically tough player last year when they won, and I mean someone like Kevin Garnett or Ron Artest.

It certainly helps, but its not completely necessary.

irobson
05-22-2010, 10:36 PM
you need more than tough guys. The NY Knicks had plenty of tough guys, Oakley, Mason, Starks, Ewing but never won a title.

shep33
05-22-2010, 10:44 PM
you need more than tough guys. The NY Knicks had plenty of tough guys, Oakley, Mason, Starks, Ewing but never won a title.

They were also a very good team, and really if it wasn't for them playing in the generation of the GOAT they woulda got 1 i think. But still your right, mentally tough is extremely important...

You can tell Orlando isn't mentally tough right now, they give up open shots, and whoever has the ball besides Redick seems to panic.

igPay atinLay
05-22-2010, 10:45 PM
You don't win titles without at least 1 or 2 hard nosed blue collar gritty do whatever your team needs to win guys.

AntiG
05-22-2010, 10:47 PM
You absolutely need tough guys.

While most of the Lakers 2009 team are soft, Kobe and Fisher are tough as nails, as is Ariza and Shannon Brown.

The entire Celtics roster in 2008 was tough.

All of the Pistons team was tough.

Spurs, check.

Michael Jordan, Scotty Pipper, Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, Bill Wennington... all tough as nails.

Hakeem, Drexler, Junkyard Dog Mario Elie, Cassell, Kenny Smith, all tough.

bmac
05-22-2010, 10:58 PM
i agree i think everyteam needs to be tough if they want to win a chapisonship. u dont have a to have tough players to win but honestly if you look back at the previous champisonship winners, they all have a tough player or players on the team. They just make your overall team a better defensive team which helps in the playoffs.

RadiantShot
05-22-2010, 11:06 PM
It's not a must, but it would never hurt. Having softies like Vince doesn't necessarily equate success.

RaiderLakersA's
05-23-2010, 12:18 AM
Sometimes it all hinges on how the refs are calling the series.

I've seen some very physical Finals where the refs pretty much let anything short of bloodletting go. If that happens, then yes, roughneck teams like Boston (now) and Detroit (the original Bad Boys) will have a field day.

But if the refs opt to police the physicality much more, then it is advantage to the team that executes the best from a basketball purist standpoint.

I think every team should have a banger and/or enforcer, someone to punish in the paint and prevent easy baskets. But force without focus is wasted energy. The will has to be mightier than the fist.

abe_froman
05-23-2010, 12:31 AM
yes you do,its hard to get through the minds of most fans though

rabzouz 96
05-23-2010, 12:33 AM
While watching this Boston - Orlando blowout JVG and Mark Jackson made a good point. Not only do the Celtics have the will to win and they are competitors, but they also have a lot of tough players who seem like angry guys. From Perkins, to Wallace, to KG and then the competitiveness of Pierce and Rondo. Whereas the Magic have a lot of humble nice guys on their team (Dwight, JJ, Vince etc)

My question is: Is acquiring gritty, tough players a need if you want to have a championship caliber team? Or are the Celtics just one unique example of how to build a team?

no, you dont need gritty players, but you need a balanced team and orlandos roster is not that good, they severly lack a pf, which is a pretty important position. it wasnt that obvious because dwigth made up for that quite much, and because they faced teams without a good frontcourt themselves like the hawks, but as soon as they face a team with a well structured frontcourt, like boston has one, it means many problems.

_KB24_
05-23-2010, 12:43 AM
Your going to need at least a guy or two who can hustle and tussle with the best of them.

ink
05-23-2010, 12:51 AM
It helps, but what is more important is that you need mentally tough players. Basically even when down, they won't give up.

That and the team needs to be built well.

Players always look like they have no heart when they know they have no answer for the holes on their own team. It's hard to play more than one position, and it's also hard when the composition of your team just doesn't measure up. They just don't have an answer no matter how hard they try. They look lost. Hard to play tough when you're lost.

Besides I think JVG was covering for SVG, putting it on the players' "heart".

Raph12
05-23-2010, 02:06 AM
When you have vets like future HOFers like KG, Pierce and Ray, a great young PG like Rodno, guys like Sheed, Davis and Allen off the bench and a physical beast in Perkins... Toughness isn't really a question, they're driven and motivated by each and every player on the roster.

Danny Ainge has done a great job of putting this team together, it isn't about one or two tough guys, it's just a tough team.

hugepatsfan
05-23-2010, 02:08 AM
When you have vets like future HOFers like KG, Pierce and Ray, a great young PG like Rodno, guys like Sheed, Davis and Allen off the bench and a physical beast in Perkins... Toughness isn't really a question, they're driven and motivated by each and every player on the roster.

Danny Ainge has done a great job of putting this team together, it isn't about one or two tough guys, it's just a tough team.

That's what makes the Celtics special - each of their 8 man rotation is "tough." (You can even throw in their 9th man, Finley, as a mentally tough guy too.)

Big Quett
05-23-2010, 02:26 AM
That's what makes the Celtics special - each of their 8 man rotation is "tough." (You can even throw in their 9th man, Finley, as a mentally tough guy too.)

See thats the thing. when people think tough they think of pushing and fighting. When i think of tough i mean just mentally tough. Look at the last few champions. The Spurs, Pistons, And the Celtics. And even the Lakers last year. They dont have physically tough players. But Fish and Kobe are 2 of the toughest and mentally tough competitors you will ever see.

Sadds The Gr8
05-23-2010, 02:35 AM
I don't think you "need" tough players, but they sure as hell help alot. Some of the recent champions that had tough guys are Boston's 08 team (KG/Perk), Spurs championship teams (Bowen), Detroit (Wallaces)

Raph12
05-23-2010, 03:11 AM
See thats the thing. when people think tough they think of pushing and fighting. When i think of tough i mean just mentally tough. Look at the last few champions. The Spurs, Pistons, And the Celtics. And even the Lakers last year. They dont have physically tough players. But Fish and Kobe are 2 of the toughest and mentally tough competitors you will ever see.

The Spurs and Pistons had physically tough players as well, the Lakers would still lose to a healthy Celts team, Pau hasn't shown he can handle the physicality.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-23-2010, 03:41 AM
Tough as in mentally tough yes I agree. But the Lakers didn't have a physically tough player last year when they won, and I mean someone like Kevin Garnett or Ron Artest.

It certainly helps, but its not completely necessary.

kobe and fisher

Jenceman
05-23-2010, 04:32 AM
The Spurs and Pistons had physically tough players as well, the Lakers would still lose to a healthy Celts team, Pau hasn't shown he can handle the physicality.

The ****? Pau handled the **** out of some physicality when he dominated Howard in the Finals.

aheili30
05-23-2010, 04:35 AM
Tough guys in the NBA? Ha!

I wouldn't bet $1 on any NBA player vs any NHL player...other than the fact most NBA guys would have the reach advantage. You barely touch some guys in the NBA and the first thing they do is stomp their feet to the bench to grab a Kleenex.

sp1derm00
05-23-2010, 04:49 AM
Tough guys in the NBA? Ha!

I wouldn't bet $1 on any NBA player vs any NHL player...other than the fact most NBA guys would have the reach advantage. You barely touch some guys in the NBA and the first thing they do is stomp their feet to the bench to grab a Kleenex.

Ron Artest?

francium34
05-23-2010, 04:56 AM
Toughness can be contagious. When one teammate is hustling his heart out, others around would likely follow. On the other hand, I think a lot of championship teams have a couple "dirty" players, who play the verge of being too tough and physical. They get into opponents' heads, making a game easier.

JayW_1023
05-23-2010, 07:24 AM
Orlando's toughest player is JJ Redick. Go figurine.

Eagles4Lyfe
05-23-2010, 07:58 AM
i think the best line he said last night " if vince carter had the same will to win and mentality as kobe bryant who knows what kind of beast he would have become." So damn true in so many ways

sventhedog
05-23-2010, 02:28 PM
the goal is balance. players to stabilize, players to fire teamates up, players to make the right play.

i agree with JVG. he is my idol.

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 02:53 PM
Orlando's toughest player is JJ Redick. Go figurine.

See my avatar. Matt Barnes is. After that, it's probably Anthony Johnson, and I'm not even exaggerating.

Korman12
05-23-2010, 03:52 PM
Tough guys in the NBA? Ha!

I wouldn't bet $1 on any NBA player vs any NHL player...other than the fact most NBA guys would have the reach advantage. You barely touch some guys in the NBA and the first thing they do is stomp their feet to the bench to grab a Kleenex.

Different sport, different mentality, stupid point, no relevancy.

Really, you think a Ben Wallace or Ron Artest couldn't take on a 5'7 Zach Parise?

Bruno
05-23-2010, 05:02 PM
Absolutely. Toughness is a must. See 2008 NBA finals.

Wilson
05-23-2010, 06:41 PM
It helps, but what is more important is that you need mentally tough players. Basically even when down, they won't give up.

This is more accurate I think. Look at the Lakers last season, they didn't really have a big tough guy who would intimidate the team, but they did have a number of mentally tough guys.

The same could be said about the Spurs for some of their championship.s

Shadee
05-23-2010, 06:43 PM
Yeah just mentally tough guys would get the job done.

nbafan63
05-23-2010, 08:16 PM
the larkers are not that tough. they just got extremely lucky last yr that they faced a even less tough opponent in the magics. then they traded a somewhat tough minded player in hedo for a clown in VC. So now your #1 and #2 option are both comedians off the court. Watch what the celtics will do to the lakers. Its 08 all over again...

Sixerlover
05-24-2010, 12:08 AM
I'm interested to see what the 2010 Lakers do against the 2010 Celtics. The Celtics are mental toughness mixed with physical, while the Lakers are much more mental toughness. I'm ready for that matchup

hugepatsfan
05-24-2010, 12:11 AM
The ****? Pau handled the **** out of some physicality when he dominated Howard in the Finals.

Dwight isn't a physically tough player (as this series has proved).

rhino17
05-24-2010, 03:18 AM
usually yes, but I can't think of any from the Lakers last season

Bruno
05-24-2010, 04:47 PM
usually yes, but I can't think of any from the Lakers last season

Fisher, Kobe. The most hard nosed back court in the NBA?

fadedmario
05-24-2010, 05:11 PM
I don't want to speak on other team's titles. I know for a fact all three of the Piston's titles came with a bunch of bruisers on those teams. Bad Boys!

rhino17
05-24-2010, 05:15 PM
Fisher, Kobe. The most hard nosed back court in the NBA?

Kobe maybe although I don't think many consider him a "tough" guy, Fisher is nothing more than a huge *****

Verbal Christ
05-24-2010, 09:04 PM
i remember when the NBA had guys coined 'enforcers' :sigh: how i miss grown up MAN baskeball and not this feminine charade that is played now a days. flagrants fly for what? waaaaa he pushed me out of the way, he deserves a technical. NBA basketball in the 80's and 90's was the shiznit, then with the disappearance of great post play came the pussyitis that is running rampant now, totally agree with JVG