PDA

View Full Version : Does Dwight Howard Lack the Maturity To Lead A Team To A Championship?



Pages : [1] 2

ko8e24
05-19-2010, 04:52 PM
I love Dwight Howard, he's obviously the most gifted center in the game today, he is the best shotblocker and one of the best rebounders in the league today.


But do you think he lacks a killer instinct, and do you feel sometimes that he doesn't understand the tense situation at hand and he just doesn't know how to handle it. Is he just too young mentally that he just doesn't "get it" right now at this stage of his young NBA career?


I remember watching the Magic-Celtics game yesterday, and with 2 1/2 minutes remaining in the game, the Magic had a 1 pt lead. Coming out of a time out and commercial break, they showed Dwight smiling to the fans, and pointing and joking around and he had lost all focus of the game while Rashard Lewis was trying to get him in the correct defensive position tell him "big fella, stop joking around, Boston has the ball, get in your defensive position".

I remember when the team leaders of Howard and Nelson were meeting the team leaders of Bryant and Fisher at halfcourt before game 4, Kobe was getting the attention of having that "pissed off playoff mode facial expression", and Dwight is joking around before the game saying "C'mon Kobe, I'm gonna make you smile". You don't say such goody-goody things before your "opponent/enemy" on the greatest stage of them all, the NBA FINALS. Yes they were Olympic teammates, but things change when you're competing against each other for the NBA Title.

To me, he doesn't seem like that serious, mature leader that a basketball team needs. He doesn't understand the severity and tense moments of a situation.


People can say all of that he told Jameer at the end of the finals to stay on the bench and watch the Lakers celebrate to know how much it hurts. But I just think that was one of those "spur of the moment" type of things that you won't see too often from Dwight Howard.



It's very good to have a personality where he's doing all the Superman stuff and impressions of other people, but it's another thing to be shying away from adversity and saying cliche things like "If we do the things that we know how to do, we should be fine". He said that when Orlando went 3-1 to the Lakers in the 2009 NBA Finals, and when Orlando lost game 1 against Boston.

I don't see the sense of urgency and I always see the lack of "understanding of the moment" from Dwight Howard, and that is why right now, I don't think he is the type of intense and "knowing of the situtation" type of leader that is needed to lead a team to a championship.



Do others feel like this as well. And Magic fans, please don't feel insulted, this is a simple observation I've made. I like Dwight Howard, but at this stage of his young career, he simply does not have "the 'it' FACTOR" to lead a team to a title.

SteveNash
05-19-2010, 04:58 PM
Depends on the player. You don't have to have a fake game face you came up with in a mirror like sticking your bottom jaw out to show your tough or make you play better.

ldc62
05-19-2010, 04:58 PM
lack of post game...

Jenceman
05-19-2010, 04:59 PM
Maybe he's a little immature, but I don't think that's his biggest problem.....the whole team is to blame, not Howard. He put his in in game 2, the rest of the team failed to step up

ko8e24
05-19-2010, 05:02 PM
Maybe he's a little immature, but I don't think that's his biggest problem.....the whole team is to blame, not Howard. He put his in in game 2, the rest of the team failed to step up

Barkley (for once) made a great point when he was speaking with Reggie. The main GUY of the team gets the brunt of the successes and failures. When a team wins a title, people say "That guy led them to a title, kudos to him". When they don't win a title, people say "That guy couldn't lead his team to a title, what a disappointment!"


Dwight is the franchise player and the supposed "leader" of that group, so he should be judged accordingly no matter how much guys like Matt Barnes and an overpaid Rashard Lewis perform.

ManRam
05-19-2010, 05:06 PM
He has multiple flaws, but immaturity isn't what holding him back...although it does hurt him at times. But singling out one little thing isn't the right way to go. You have to look at his all-around game in addition.

But we'll see. He's still very young. Like LeBron, he's got a good 10 years or so left of his prime.

shep33
05-19-2010, 05:06 PM
Maybe he's a little immature, but I don't think that's his biggest problem.....the whole team is to blame, not Howard. He put his in in game 2, the rest of the team failed to step up

Let me say this about Howard... a lot of people love his attitude, all smiles etc. But when your the teams best player, and when your as physically intimadating as Howard is, you have to show it.

Howard should be a jerk, be mean and nasty, not for his sake, but for his team's sake... that mean streak will rub off on other players, and its little things like that which provide extra motivation to play D and hustle for lose balls.

The Riley Knicks had a rule... you knock an opponent down, you don't help him up... and yesterday i saw Gortat help up Rondo after a foul. You don't let that happen, cause Boston wouldn't do that.

People often compare Shaq to Howard, but if anyone watched Shaq play with LA the guy was hillarious off the court, but on the court he was mean, arrogant, and tough.

I like Howard as a player, and he isn't intimadated by Boston, but a lot of his teammates are, and I just think he should show that demeanor, and heck even let his teammates know about it. He's not the reason why they're losing this series I agree, but his teammates look scared.

Jenceman
05-19-2010, 05:06 PM
True, as a leader you have to take the downfall of the team to be a good leader.

So yeah the blame will be rested upon his shoulders. They just match up terribly with the Celtics. Any team that can play Howard Mano-y-mano has a great chance to beat them

jfin
05-19-2010, 05:09 PM
thats Dwight's personality tho. he's not that serious straight faced dude. he smiles and just because he's smiling doesn't mean he doesn't know the situation. his offense is the only thing holding him back.
Oh yea also they're playin 4 on 5 out there cuz Rashard Lewis is absent

ko8e24
05-19-2010, 05:12 PM
He has multiple flaws, but immaturity isn't what holding him back...although it does hurt him at times. But singling out one little thing isn't the right way to go. You have to look at his all-around game in addition.

But we'll see. He's still very young. Like LeBron, he's got a good 10 years or so left of his prime.

AGREE. But I really think the Magic should get a couple of guys in the offseason, like veterans and people who have "been there and done that" so that Dwight can mature as a basketball player.


I remember how much Kobe benefited in 2000 when he had guys like Ron Harper (3peat with Phil and the Bulls), AC Green (back-to-back titles with Showtime Lakers), B. Shaw (former teammate of Shaq and made it to finals in '95), and already having Shaq (the GUY of the team and already made it to finals in '95), and Robert Horry (back-to back titles with Houston w/ Hakeem in mid 90s) really helped him. Also having a savvy veteran like Rick Fox (who played a few yrs with Larry Legend in Boston in the early 90s).



Dwight needs successful and big time veterans on this Magic team to help him progress in his career for the long run.

SteveNash
05-19-2010, 05:15 PM
Let me say this about Howard... a lot of people love his attitude, all smiles etc. But when your the teams best player, and when your as physically intimadating as Howard is, you have to show it.

Howard should be a jerk, be mean and nasty, not for his sake, but for his team's sake... that mean streak will rub off on other players, and its little things like that which provide extra motivation to play D and hustle for lose balls.

The Riley Knicks had a rule... you knock an opponent down, you don't help him up... and yesterday i saw Gortat help up Rondo after a foul. You don't let that happen, cause Boston wouldn't do that.

People often compare Shaq to Howard, but if anyone watched Shaq play with LA the guy was hillarious off the court, but on the court he was mean, arrogant, and tough.

I like Howard as a player, and he isn't intimadated by Boston, but a lot of his teammates are, and I just think he should show that demeanor, and heck even let his teammates know about it. He's not the reason why they're losing this series I agree, but his teammates look scared.

What did Riley's Knicks win?

You can't say they've accomplished a whole lot more than the happy go lucky Magic team.

Did helping up a Celtic player make them lose the game? I don't see why every has to act like an *** to win.

sargon21
05-19-2010, 05:36 PM
maybe we should lower our expectations of him? jus sayin

PJAF
05-19-2010, 05:42 PM
Right now he cannot overtake a game skill wise or leadership wise. He needs others around him unlike LBJ, Wade, or Kobe.

tdunk21
05-19-2010, 05:44 PM
maybe evryone should give him a break....guy is just 24 yrs old.....and winning championship is not so easy.....his team still needs the right pieces to win a championship.....

CowboysKB24
05-19-2010, 05:48 PM
It is not completely fair, but yes he does lack maturity and so do a lot of other guys.

JabberJaw
05-19-2010, 05:52 PM
This is what I can't stand about media and it's followers. Someone said it somewhere and suggested that Dwight is not "mature enough" possibly to lead a team to a championship. I don't know how he is not mature enough. He's just a faction of that team. The team isn't losing because of him. Hes the best defensive player in the league, and gets no plays ran for him on O. How is his maturity, or lack there of, hurting this team. If anything it keeps the team loose. I'd understand if he were out there causing inner termoil and whining in the locker room, but everyone seems to love the guy. Hell, Shaq is as immature as anyone and he lead his team to multiple championships.
The problem with the Magic lies in their offensive gameplanning. They live and die by the 3. No team in the league relies on the 3 ball as much as the Magic. They have nobody that really takes the ball to the hole. They're a bunch of jump shooters. They're a really good team, but in no way is this teams struggles have anything to do with Dwights maturity level. Take him off this team and they're a decent, not championship level, team.

tangent12
05-19-2010, 05:55 PM
Dwight lacks the maturity, intensity and focus to lead a team. It's as simple as that.

tdunk21
05-19-2010, 06:00 PM
^its pathetic how some people think dwight is immature....he had the most points in yesterdays game and also he leads the league in blocks....no immature person gets the DPOY and leads the league in blocks....its his supporting cast thats hurting his team....example rashard lewis

Corey
05-19-2010, 06:02 PM
^its pathetic how some people think dwight is immature....he had the most points in yesterdays game and also he leads the league in blocks....no immature person gets the DPOY and leads the league in blocks....its his supporting cast thats hurting his team....example rashard lewis

You bring up leading the league in blocks, and that's ridiculous.

That has absolutely nothing to do with maturity.

And since you stress it so much, he had 0 last night.

tdunk21
05-19-2010, 06:06 PM
You bring up leading the league in blocks, and that's ridiculous.

That has absolutely nothing to do with maturity.

And since you stress it so much, he had 0 last night.

i would rather hear that from a non celtic fan.....

he had 5 blocks in game 1

tangent12
05-19-2010, 06:07 PM
^its pathetic how some people think dwight is immature....he had the most points in yesterdays game and also he leads the league in blocks....no immature person gets the DPOY and leads the league in blocks....its his supporting cast thats hurting his team....example rashard lewis

Since when is maturity related to the way your perform in a certain sport or vice versa?

Maturity consists a lot more things than just producing on the basketball court. Of course some kind of discipline and maturity is involved in the process but it doesn't determine if he's a mature individual. One could be mature for one thing and immature for others, it's not as simple as you make it ought to be.

Now I find it pathetic how generic and poorly constructed your point is. Also surprised by your perception and definition of what maturity is.

Gibby23
05-19-2010, 06:07 PM
^its pathetic how some people think dwight is immature....he had the most points in yesterdays game and also he leads the league in blocks....no immature person gets the DPOY and leads the league in blocks....its his supporting cast thats hurting his team....example rashard lewis

Didn't Artest get DPOY for the 2003-2004 season, that was shortly after he applied at circut city and befroe the brawl.

The Final Boss
05-19-2010, 07:53 PM
Depends on the player. You don't have to have a fake game face you came up with in a mirror like sticking your bottom jaw out to show your tough or make you play better.

Nash and Stoudamire will have plenty of time this off season to practice in their mirrors.

Jeff Van Gungy on the Lakers Suns series, "Watch it quickly. Its gonna be a short one."

ko8e24
05-19-2010, 07:53 PM
^its pathetic how some people think dwight is immature....he had the most points in yesterdays game and also he leads the league in blocks....no immature person gets the DPOY and leads the league in blocks....its his supporting cast thats hurting his team....example rashard lewis

Um, yes, I did mention that in my opening post. But leading the league in blocks and rebounding during the regular season and winning a championship and putting your team in position to win deep into the playoffs are two totally different things. He lacks the "know it hows" of getting the job done. He is the face of the franchise, he is the guy that gets the most recognition for the team when they win, and even though he is not their main offensive player, he is still THE GUY of that team and he has to set an aggressive and winning attitude for the rest of his teammates. 24 yrs old, yes, but 6th yr in the league. He does not understand "pressure situations" and talks about cliche stuff like "it's like any other game and that's how we'll approach it".


You can't treat games deep into the postseason like regular season games. You can't be joking around with the fans in the front row while the other 4 guys on your team are getting into their defensive stances trying to defend a Celtics offensive possession with the C's being down by one point where your team is trying to tie up the Eastern Conference finals after your team has just lost home court advantage.

basketfan4life
05-19-2010, 08:50 PM
i'm gonna say one thing...i think we make too much out of young stars, before they turn in to what we are thinking they are...it is even true for lbj,let alone dwight...

if you want to be a great winner, you have to learn everthing regardless of your position...shooting,off the ball game, using screens, setting screens, post moves, there is so much in this game...lbj didn't grow a post game or didn't learn how to use screens,same with dwight ,yes they have time for it but it's no as long as you think,athleicism is not going to be with you all of your carreer, you can no, can not skip steps of basketball, there is a reason some players are consistently winning and some are consistently losing at some level, and you can't measure this greatness with any stat, believe me.

RaptorizedKevin
05-19-2010, 09:05 PM
you should had named your thread " DOes LEBRON JAMES lack the maturity to lead a team to a championship" the man is dancing when he hasnt won a championship. hes dancing in the regular season and then they lose the boston. Not the way i expected the king to go down.

shep33
05-19-2010, 10:17 PM
What did Riley's Knicks win?

You can't say they've accomplished a whole lot more than the happy go lucky Magic team.

Did helping up a Celtic player make them lose the game? I don't see why every has to act like an *** to win.

The Knicks were often the 2nd best team in the league, and if it wasn't for the greatest team of alltime, with the greatest player of all time they would have won a ring or maybe even 2. People forget that the Knicks were very competitive against the Bulls, but Chicago was just better b/c of the GOAT.

What I'm saying is that you can't act like everything is all smoothe down the stretch of a game when your up 1 and he's smiling all over the place. Kobe, Pierce, KG, wouldn't be doing that, they're focused. Most of all toughness and attitude wears off on everyone else on the team. The Celts weren't hard nosed until KG came into town, D12 has to get other guys fired up.

streetballa
05-19-2010, 10:23 PM
30 points on 9-13 fg and 12-17ft...with 8 assist

That is pretty impressive, how come Lebron loses it is because of his team but Howard loses it is all on him. Lewis in 41 min did basically nothing, Magic need to use their depth, end of story.

JasonJohnHorn
05-19-2010, 10:26 PM
I dont know is "maturity" is the thing he lacks. He seems like a pretty together guy, and he has the talent, athleticism and physical gifts. He just doesn't have the skill. He works hard, that much is clear just by looking at him, but he's gotta work hard outside of the gym. I know they guy worked on his jumper in the offseason, but he's gotta spend and offseason with Hakeem, or Kareem like Bynum and Kobe have (Kobe's post moves have been amazing this year, and I am NOT a Bryant fan, so that's hard for me to swallow... lol).

Howard is young and still has time to expend his game, the question is: will he do that, or rest on rest on the game that has gotten him so this far? some player jsut dont have the drive or desire to improve their game.

RadiantShot
05-19-2010, 10:44 PM
In short, no. I'll go in depth tomorrow. Basically, we're down 2-0 on the Celtics, and there are rumors on trades, Dwight Howard not being good enough to lead his team to a championship, Vince Carter being worse than Hedo, Orlando fans being bad, Are they better or worse than last year, Blah..Blah..Blah..Blah..Blah.

ko8e24
05-20-2010, 03:27 AM
To those who may have gotten the wrong idea from this thread, I'm not criticizing Dwight Howard's game (that should be reserved for a different topic as pertaining to his limited offensive aresenal), I am criticizing him on his approach to the game, especially playoff games and how to treat a playoff series and how to treat the moment etc.

DodgerBulls
05-20-2010, 03:43 AM
i don't know.. I think that he just lack of the right post up move that fits him. Whether it's the first possesion or the last, it just depends on his efficiency when posting up. Remember Miller trash talking back and forth with Spike, it's immature too but he got hot shooting 3s because he can.

ko8e24
05-20-2010, 03:51 AM
i don't know.. I think that he just lack of the right post up move that fits him. Whether it's the first possesion or the last, it just depends on his efficiency when posting up. Remember Miller trash talking back and forth with Spike, it's immature too but he got hot shooting 3s because he can.

That's not immaturity, lol, not even close. That was a player/opposing fan rivalry and it was Reggie showing his pride and arrogance (good type of arrogance) to get that mental edge to have Reggie going and doing well in games against the Knicks.

DodgerBulls
05-20-2010, 04:15 AM
That's not immaturity, lol, not even close. That was a player/opposing fan rivalry and it was Reggie showing his pride and arrogance (good type of arrogance) to get that mental edge to have Reggie going and doing well in games against the Knicks.

And Dwight joking around with the fans is compelety different? Maybe Dwight is doing this so he won't be all up tight during the game... and releasing tension because Wallace and Perkins are getting under his skin and trying not to get fouled out. Not just because he was joking around means he has lost all of his focus. Reggie showing his own individual pride is not immature? What if he didn't make all those shots.. will you consider him immature?

ko8e24
05-20-2010, 04:25 AM
And Dwight joking around with the fans is compelety different? Maybe Dwight is doing this so he won't be all up tight during the game... and releasing tension because Wallace and Perkins are getting under his skin and trying not to get fouled out. Not just because he was joking around means he has lost all of his focus. Reggie showing his own individual pride is not immature? What if he didn't make all those shots.. will you consider him immature?

Wow, I don't know which direction you're taking this thread with the whole Reggie Miller thing. Reggie has proven his legacy with big moments, big shots, which is why he got the nickname "Killer Miller" and the whole slogan of "It's Miller Time" (Yes, going hand in hand with the beer commercial).


This whole Reggie Miller/Spike Lee thing that you've brought up does not apply at all to what this thread is saying.

You just don't understand.

DodgerBulls
05-20-2010, 04:35 AM
Wow, I don't know which direction you're taking this thread with the whole Reggie Miller thing. Reggie has proven his legacy with big moments, big shots, which is why he got the nickname "Killer Miller" and the whole slogan of "It's Miller Time" (Yes, going hand in hand with the beer commercial).


This whole Reggie Miller/Spike Lee thing that you've brought up does not apply at all to what this thread is saying.

You just don't understand.

I just made Riggie as an example, I didnt' talk about his legacy and whatnot. I just brought out that as example on what you stated about Dwight joking around with the fans. See past Reggie's legacy to realize that what Reggie and Spike on court arguments is an immature thing on Miller's behalf. He wasn't "focus" on the game 100%.

ko8e24
05-20-2010, 04:36 AM
I just made Riggie as an example, I didnt' talk about his legacy and whatnot. I just brought out that as example on what you stated about Dwight joking around with the fans. See past Reggie's legacy to realize that what Reggie and Spike on court arguments is an immature thing on Miller's behalf. He wasn't "focus" on the game 100%.

:facepalm: I think we're done here.

DodgerBulls
05-20-2010, 04:51 AM
:facepalm: I think we're done here.

Ah, okay. We might just have a different input on things. IMO, if the rest of the players on the Magic's team didn't sucked, then we might not be having this conversation. If there have been questions about Dwight maturity leading a team to a championship, then they shouldn't rely on him rather look on somebody else to lead the team.

robdizzle3
05-20-2010, 04:57 AM
How is Howard immature? Because he smiles at the fans? Or jokes around once in a while. He's doing it by himself out there, other than maybe Reddick who has given the team a spark. The physical part was shown as well when he knocked the hell out of Pierce and when him and Garnett got into it a bit and Dwight got in his face and clapped. He knows what time it is when he is on the court, but he goes about it differently. he doesnt have to mean mug you to show that he is serious. He knows what needs to be done, but as Kobe proved, you cant do it alone and thats what he's doing right now.

RadiantShot
05-20-2010, 09:46 AM
How is Howard immature? Because he smiles at the fans? Or jokes around once in a while. He's doing it by himself out there, other than maybe Reddick who has given the team a spark. The physical part was shown as well when he knocked the hell out of Pierce and when him and Garnett got into it a bit and Dwight got in his face and clapped. He knows what time it is when he is on the court, but he goes about it differently. he doesnt have to mean mug you to show that he is serious. He knows what needs to be done, but as Kobe proved, you cant do it alone and thats what he's doing right now.

In short, this is exactly what I would've said. This is the best response I've heard from this thread, other than JohnHorn's, which was pretty on spot too.

Dwight Howard doesn't lack "maturity." How do you classify maturity? Should we think someone is immature because they're whining for fouls? In that case, Kobe, along with half of the other superstars are very immature as well. Do we classify it as putting on a mean face, acting tough, and being thought of as, "mature?" In that case, I guess Dwight is mature, because he sure wasn't smiling the other night when we lost. Do we classify it as, having a ring? In that case, Grant Hill isn't mature either.

Basically, what I'm saying is, at the end of the day, everyone saying Dwight's "immature" hasn't watched him nearly enough to know the true Dwight. So what if he smiles a few times at the fans? So what if he get's happy when he dunks it to help his team? So what..If he's happy after he wins a game, and goes off the court smiling? Are we all not human? Do we not have emotion? Are Basketball Players suppose to be some type of species that can't laugh, smile, or be silly at times? Absolutely not. Hop off his jock about some of this stuff. Dwight's not a bad guy. If he's not mature, even though he led his team to the Finals, but lost to one of the best, and hungriest teams in the league, probably THE hungriest, then so be it. Call Dwight immature; He led a team full of jump-shooters and inconsistent players into the NBA Finals, but at the end of the day, if he doesn't have a ring, he'll get crucified for not being, "mature." That's a load of BS. I know it, and everyone else knows it. Immature should be classified for guys like Ron Artest. Little thugs running into the stands swinging on fans because he can't control his emotions. That's a whole notha' ball-game though, and I'm not going to discuss it or go into detail.

All I can say is, Dwight isn't 'immature' enough to lead his team to an NBA title. He lacks the skill himself, to lead them. Dwight's a great player, but until he fixes what needs to be fixed, you guys will keep pinning him for an 'immature attitude.'

twoearl
05-20-2010, 10:25 AM
Barkley (for once) made a great point when he was speaking with Reggie. The main GUY of the team gets the brunt of the successes and failures. When a team wins a title, people say "That guy led them to a title, kudos to him". When they don't win a title, people say "That guy couldn't lead his team to a title, what a disappointment!"


Dwight is the franchise player and the supposed "leader" of that group, so he should be judged accordingly no matter how much guys like Matt Barnes and an overpaid Rashard Lewis perform.

The guy had 30 and 8 in game 2. What else do you want from him? And isn't that the whole Lebron Arguement right now? People are saying his team failed him, they are trash, mo williams didn't show up, blaming mike brown etc. but NOBODY is blaming Lebron... Why can't Howard get the same treatment?

ko8e24
05-20-2010, 03:02 PM
The guy had 30 and 8 in game 2. What else do you want from him? And isn't that the whole Lebron Arguement right now? People are saying his team failed him, they are trash, mo williams didn't show up, blaming mike brown etc. but NOBODY is blaming Lebron... Why can't Howard get the same treatment?

His numbers were fantastic in the scoring department, but even JVG said during the game that those "8 rebounds" should be 14,15-16 rebounds to go along with his 30 pts. In that regard, he needs to see if he can have both dominant points and dominant rebounds. Not games like 13 pts and 18 rebs or 30 pts and 8 rebs. No, if he wants to be dominant and wants to lead Orlando to a title, he needs to be at around 27-30 ppg and 13-15 rpg.


And I think even Reggie Miller said on TNT when the TNT crew was looking at the Celtics-Magic game 2 highlights, Reggie was screaming at the top of his lungs saying, "WHY ARE THE MAGIC PLAYERS SMILING? WHY IS DWIGHT SMILING". And he was going on this 5 minute rant about it.


PS: Reggie said all of that AFTER I made this thread, so I guess that's two people in this world, a poster on PSD (me), and the greatest shooter in NBA history and a top 25 player of all-time (Reggie Miller) thinking alike. ;)

RadiantShot
05-20-2010, 03:17 PM
His numbers were fantastic in the scoring department, but even JVG said during the game that those "8 rebounds" should be 14,15-16 rebounds to go along with his 30 pts. In that regard, he needs to see if he can have both dominant points and dominant rebounds. Not games like 13 pts and 18 rebs or 30 pts and 8 rebs. No, if he wants to be dominant and wants to lead Orlando to a title, he needs to be at around 27-30 ppg and 13-15 rpg.


And I think even Reggie Miller said on TNT when the TNT crew was looking at the Celtics-Magic game 2 highlights, Reggie was screaming at the top of his lungs saying, "WHY ARE THE MAGIC PLAYERS SMILING? WHY IS DWIGHT SMILING". And he was going on this 5 minute rant about it.


PS: Reggie said all of that AFTER I made this thread, so I guess that's two people in this world, a poster on PSD (me), and the greatest shooter in NBA history and a top 25 player of all-time (Reggie Miller) thinking alike. ;)

I won't lie. I like your perception of the Points and rebounds, but if he's great in one department, it's not like he'll be amazing in both, at least, not now. He's still too offensively raw. If he focuses on his offense, he could score a lot, but he'll be focusing on offense too much, and not enough on defense, and right now that's not what we need. It's just like when teams put their best player on the other team's worst player, so they can conserve energy for offense. Dwight does that, but vice-versa, and on defense instead.

I do disagree on the Reggie Miller comment. I don't know if you know this or not, but Reggie Miller isn't the smartest analyst around. He's constantly throwing out obnoxious, pointless comments, saying player's names wrong, and overall, even though he was a heck-of-a-player, he's not even close to a great analyst, so him and you agreeing, doesn't necessarily equate for success.

AntiG
05-20-2010, 03:20 PM
I don't really see a problem with Dwight's mental approach to the game. I do see a BIG problem with the rest of the teams' though. They got whipped big-time by the Celtics' defense two games in a row and lost all of their confidence as players (other than Carter, who simply choked). That's on them, not Howard. Howard might be the marquee player and a team leader, but one player can't do other players' jobs no matter how good he is.

RadiantShot
05-20-2010, 03:24 PM
I'm just going to come out and say it. Boston right now, is playing better basketball than anyone, and they are a better team than us. They shut us down on all cylinders. I still believe the series isn't over yet. I still believe in my team. I'm just pointing out the facts.

Raph12
05-20-2010, 03:29 PM
Obviously he isn't the most mature leader left in the playoffs (especially when compared to Kobe, KG and Nash), but his teammates aren't doing their part either. Dwight's done his job on defense and did it on offense as well in Game 2. Carter is the vet, if anything, he's the guy who's supposed to step up in this situation and get his guys their confidence back. Dwight said he won't let his teammates give up and he is playing the right way and leading by example, but when vets like VC and Shard don't show up, it really hurts the team. If at least two of the four guys show up (Dwight, VC, Shard and Nelson) and their role players hit shots, they can make a series out of this...

It's not all on Dwight, there is only so much he can do.

ko8e24
05-20-2010, 03:32 PM
^ Which why I said in an earlier post, if they could get rid of Lewis' contract and get some crafty savvy veterans on the team who have either gotten to the finals or won a championship, that would benefit Dwight like it benefited a young immature Kobe in the late 90s/early 2000s.

RadiantShot
05-20-2010, 03:36 PM
^ Which why I said in an earlier post, if they could get rid of Lewis' contract and get some crafty savvy veterans on the team who have either gotten to the finals or won a championship, that would benefit Dwight like it benefited a young immature Kobe in the late 90s.

I was talking to my friend about that. Basically, I told him that we need to get back to playing fundamental basketball, meaning, have a true PG, SG, SF, PF, and C. I also told him we need a guy like Derek Fisher, or Robert Horry, who've been there, done that, and have won Championships. I know Jason Williams is on the Magic right now, but he's not the type of guy I'm talking about. We need guys that are mentally tough. Mental toughness is key.

macc
05-20-2010, 03:54 PM
Barkley (for once) made a great point when he was speaking with Reggie. The main GUY of the team gets the brunt of the successes and failures. When a team wins a title, people say "That guy led them to a title, kudos to him". When they don't win a title, people say "That guy couldn't lead his team to a title, what a disappointment!"


Dwight is the franchise player and the supposed "leader" of that group, so he should be judged accordingly no matter how much guys like Matt Barnes and an overpaid Rashard Lewis perform.



But then as a fan you should use COMMON SENSE and realize Dwight did what he needed to do. It takes a team effort to win games. Just like QBs in football. They take the love and the hate but fans know that you need a good O line to protect the QB. Its not Dwight that needs to step up at this point. Its the entire team that has to step up.

Besides people act like we got blown out twice. The games were within 3 and 4 of each other. Both winnable games if a couple shots/calls went the opposite direction.

Is Dwight Mature enough? YES. He has made Orlando better year after year, from 40+ wins to 50+ wins to a finals appearance, to now at the very least an ecf appearance. While your Wade's, Dirks, Lebrons, Carmelos, Durrant are all at home. Are they not mature either? So come on guys. These threads get so annoying. Let the series finish out then start hating. Boston still has to win 2 more games to finish it off. Savy

Stay Classy

*Superman*
05-20-2010, 04:00 PM
I was talking to my friend about that. Basically, I told him that we need to get back to playing fundamental basketball, meaning, have a true PG, SG, SF, PF, and C. I also told him we need a guy like Derek Fisher, or Robert Horry, who've been there, done that, and have won Championships. I know Jason Williams is on the Magic right now, but he's not the type of guy I'm talking about. We need guys that are mentally tough. Mental toughness is key.

I told you that part. :mad:

ko8e24
05-20-2010, 04:01 PM
Thank you Orlando Magic fans for not taking this criticism the wrong way, and I appreciate the good arguments you guys are making. You guys are not sore like the fan bases of many other teams that I know of. You guys take criticism and all of that stuff very well. Very kool.

RadiantShot
05-20-2010, 04:01 PM
I told you that part. :mad:

Oh, my bad. :p

My friend told me that. :rolleyes:.

But yeah, I agree. That's why San Antonio won. That's why LA won. That's why Detroit won. That's why Boston won. I mean, Basketball is a game of match-ups..

RadiantShot
05-20-2010, 04:02 PM
Thank you Orlando Magic fans for not taking this criticism the wrong way, and I appreciate the good arguments you guys are making. You guys are not sore like the fan bases of many other teams that I know of. You guys take criticism and all of that stuff very well. Very kool.

No problem. We don't like being ignorant. We take pride in our fan-base. Isn't that right guys?

:cricket:

;)

DodgerBulls
05-20-2010, 04:08 PM
^ Which why I said in an earlier post, if they could get rid of Lewis' contract and get some crafty savvy veterans on the team who have either gotten to the finals or won a championship, that would benefit Dwight like it benefited a young immature Kobe in the late 90s/early 2000s.

If only they can move Lewis and Vince with their ridiculous contract. Next year, Lewis will make about $20M then 21-22 in the next two years and Vince will make about $18M then 18.3 the next year. Good luck moving them.

RadiantShot
05-20-2010, 04:10 PM
In Otis we trust. Good luck getting LeBron.

ko8e24
05-20-2010, 04:19 PM
If only they can move Lewis and Vince with their ridiculous contract. Next year, Lewis will make about $20M then 21-22 in the next two years and Vince will make about $18M then 18.3 the next year. Good luck moving them.

Yeah I agree, it's easier to move Vince than Rashard, but I think Vince is probably more valuable to that team than Shard, because Shard is nothing w/o Turkoglu. If Turkoglu left, think that everything good about Rashard Lewis went with Hedo to Toronto, lol. Plain and simple, Hedo made Shard a better contributory player for Orlando the last couple of yrs prior to this season.

IversonIsKrazy
05-20-2010, 04:28 PM
If Rashard showed up to game 1, and VC was clutch (like he usually is, seriously, check out his clutch moments from the past), we wouldn't be having this discussion. But honestly, I do think Dwight lacks that leadership ability.

TheWatcher34
05-20-2010, 04:44 PM
he's missing THE swagger! he should take a close look at Scalabrine..no kidding.
D Howard must be more focused on making movies than winning championships.
he's got the body to be one of the greatest...but his attitude lacks therefore. can you blame him?
nobody can force him to IMO

ARMIN12NBA
05-20-2010, 07:17 PM
He has multiple flaws, but immaturity isn't what holding him back...although it does hurt him at times. But singling out one little thing isn't the right way to go. You have to look at his all-around game in addition.

But we'll see. He's still very young. Like LeBron, he's got a good 10 years or so left of his prime.

So Lebron and Dwight are still going to be in their prime in their 16th and 17th season? LOL.

ULT WARRIOR408
05-20-2010, 07:30 PM
Dwight Howard is poised & mature beyond his years the problem is his game is predictable.He needs to add a 15 foot/mid-range jumpshot to his game.

blacknell
05-20-2010, 07:32 PM
its his lack of a post game

ULT WARRIOR408
05-20-2010, 07:35 PM
^No its his inability to step out of the post bruh.

Raph12
05-20-2010, 08:19 PM
He's not allowed to step out of the paint, he was very proud of his short-mid range jumper in the offseason, but Stan has forbade him to use it in games. Stan was even upset when he hit the 3 in the AS game, saying "oh great, now he'll want to shoot it in the real game"

RadiantShot
05-20-2010, 08:29 PM
Something tells me Stan isn't doing his job correctly. :rolleyes:

Maybe every-time Dwight tries to add something to his repertoire, he get's bashed by Stan. :rolleyes:.

Raph12
05-20-2010, 08:31 PM
Stan isn't doing his job correctly, he's making a lot of mistakes, if I started to list them off, I'd be here all day long.

RadiantShot
05-20-2010, 08:34 PM
Would you be FOR firing him in the off-season...If...You know...? Or would you be indifferent?

Cromedome
05-20-2010, 08:35 PM
As long as this big phony keeps calling himself "superman" ...he will NEVER lead a team to a championship.

The real superman didn't get shut down night after night.

RadiantShot
05-20-2010, 08:39 PM
As long as this big phony keeps calling himself "superman" ...he will NEVER lead a team to a championship.

The real superman didn't get shut down night after night.

You're right, you know, it's not like the "Real" Superman isn't sitting at home debating on following LeBron while riding his nut-sack. What a smart guy. :rolleyes:

kblo247
05-20-2010, 08:39 PM
I won't say as much immature as he is too nice.

I think back not to now, but in the finals last year when there was a play where he and Kobe went for a rebound and Kobe threw elbows and fought it away from him while cussing and fussing.

Dwight said in the press conference that night when talking about the moment he told Kobe, "Kobe its me Dwight, what's wrong". He should have gotten mad, cussed him back out, threw his little *** around, or did something like that.

You can't have friends that are opponents on the court when it is winning time and the best example of that would be MJ and Payton in the 96 Finals. Both guys are friends and have a mutual respect, but they talked ****, hit one another, fought, clawed, and grabbed for that trophy. They would kill you if you got in the way and I don't see that mentality in Dwight yet where he separates his friendship off the court from on it.

RadiantShot
05-20-2010, 08:41 PM
I guess, but still, he's so young. It's like a child almost. They don't know better yet. Trust me, Dwight will start trash-talking soon.

Raph12
05-20-2010, 08:49 PM
Would you be FOR firing him in the off-season...If...You know...? Or would you be indifferent?

I'd definitely fire him, but only after I get an Avery Johnson/Hubie Brown-type guy to replace him with.


As long as this big phony keeps calling himself "superman" ...he will NEVER lead a team to a championship.

The real superman didn't get shut down night after night.

The "real" superman also played with Penny in his prime, Kobe stepping into/in his prime, Wade in his prime, Nash/Stat in their primes and Lebron in his prime. If Dwight had Lebron on his team right now, they'd dominate the league for years to come and easily get 5+rings.

RadiantShot
05-20-2010, 08:53 PM
Haha, It's funny I've never thought about what Raph just said. Imagine if Dwight Howard had a Legend on his team. :rolleyes:.

;)

kblo247
05-20-2010, 08:57 PM
I'd definitely fire him, but only after I get an Avery Johnson/Hubie Brown-type guy to replace him with.



The "real" superman also played with Penny in his prime, Kobe stepping into/in his prime, Wade in his prime, Nash/Stat in their primes and Lebron in his prime. If Dwight had Lebron on his team right now, they'd dominate the league for years to come and easily get 5+rings.

He had all stars in Van Exel and Jones as well in between Penny and Kobe developing.

I think Dwight can win without a doubt, but I think he needs a player or a coach with him that has a killer's mentality to help show him how to go for the jugular. Sad to say, but even though Lewis and Carter are better, the closest thing Dwight has ever had to a killer was Hedo.

Raph12
05-20-2010, 09:12 PM
He had all stars in Van Exel and Jones as well in between Penny and Kobe developing.

I think Dwight can win without a doubt, but I think he needs a player or a coach with him that has a killer's mentality to help show him how to go for the jugular. Sad to say, but even though Lewis and Carter are better, the closest thing Dwight has ever had to a killer was Hedo.

Dwight definitely needs that guy, who could help drive him and his team. Like a KG type guy, who just goes out there and knows how to win big games. Shaq wasn't mature enough to win in Orlando (about Dwight's age), he won when he was 28, that's another 4 seasons to go for Dwight. So why is everyone trying to rush him into winning a ring so early in his career?

Dwight needs some real vets on the team with that winning attitude, it's hard to take a 24yr old who smiles 24/7 seriously.

Btw don't get me started on Hedo, I hated that guy lol.

RadiantShot
05-20-2010, 09:34 PM
Hahaha. I'm loving me some Raph12 right about now. ;)

kblo247
05-20-2010, 09:46 PM
Dwight definitely needs that guy, who could help drive him and his team. Like a KG type guy, who just goes out there and knows how to win big games. Shaq wasn't mature enough to win in Orlando (about Dwight's age), he won when he was 28, that's another 4 seasons to go for Dwight. So why is everyone trying to rush him into winning a ring so early in his career?

Dwight needs some real vets on the team with that winning attitude, it's hard to take a 24yr old who smiles 24/7 seriously.

Btw don't get me started on Hedo, I hated that guy lol.

To be fair, Dwight has played longer than Shaq did at that age though

RadiantShot
05-20-2010, 09:47 PM
Dwight...Has played longer than Shaq? :confused: No..?

kblo247
05-20-2010, 10:23 PM
Dwight has played longer than Shaq did at the age of 24 because he came out of high school. My bad for not being more clear

Raph12
05-20-2010, 10:41 PM
To be fair, Dwight has played longer than Shaq did at that age though

To be fair, going to college made Shaq more NBA ready.

robdizzle3
05-21-2010, 12:38 AM
In short, this is exactly what I would've said. This is the best response I've heard from this thread, other than JohnHorn's, which was pretty on spot too.

Dwight Howard doesn't lack "maturity." How do you classify maturity? Should we think someone is immature because they're whining for fouls? In that case, Kobe, along with half of the other superstars are very immature as well. Do we classify it as putting on a mean face, acting tough, and being thought of as, "mature?" In that case, I guess Dwight is mature, because he sure wasn't smiling the other night when we lost. Do we classify it as, having a ring? In that case, Grant Hill isn't mature either.

Basically, what I'm saying is, at the end of the day, everyone saying Dwight's "immature" hasn't watched him nearly enough to know the true Dwight. So what if he smiles a few times at the fans? So what if he get's happy when he dunks it to help his team? So what..If he's happy after he wins a game, and goes off the court smiling? Are we all not human? Do we not have emotion? Are Basketball Players suppose to be some type of species that can't laugh, smile, or be silly at times? Absolutely not. Hop off his jock about some of this stuff. Dwight's not a bad guy. If he's not mature, even though he led his team to the Finals, but lost to one of the best, and hungriest teams in the league, probably THE hungriest, then so be it. Call Dwight immature; He led a team full of jump-shooters and inconsistent players into the NBA Finals, but at the end of the day, if he doesn't have a ring, he'll get crucified for not being, "mature." That's a load of BS. I know it, and everyone else knows it. Immature should be classified for guys like Ron Artest. Little thugs running into the stands swinging on fans because he can't control his emotions. That's a whole notha' ball-game though, and I'm not going to discuss it or go into detail.

All I can say is, Dwight isn't 'immature' enough to lead his team to an NBA title. He lacks the skill himself, to lead them. Dwight's a great player, but until he fixes what needs to be fixed, you guys will keep pinning him for an 'immature attitude.'

I think thats a perfect example of immaturity right there. I guarantee you wont see Dwight go in the crowd and throw bangers or really get into a fight with players on the court. Even when Shaq was questioning him, he didnt take the bait and go at Shaq, he showed respect, though he may have wanted to say something else, but he still was classy about it. Its just not his time now, but it will be soon enough. As soon as Kobe stops playing great lol.

RadiantShot
05-21-2010, 01:20 AM
I think thats a perfect example of immaturity right there. I guarantee you wont see Dwight go in the crowd and throw bangers or really get into a fight with players on the court. Even when Shaq was questioning him, he didnt take the bait and go at Shaq, he showed respect, though he may have wanted to say something else, but he still was classy about it. Its just not his time now, but it will be soon enough. As soon as Kobe stops playing great lol.

Thank you. I like the way you think rob! I agree! ;)

dc5jdm
05-21-2010, 04:55 PM
Dwight Howard is following Nowitzki's foot steps, not being able to win.

He has Kwame Brown's post moves.

robdizzle3
05-21-2010, 05:10 PM
Dwight Howard is following Nowitzki's foot steps, not being able to win.

He has Kwame Brown's post moves.

That was the biggest diss you could've said about him. He is way better than that. You have to take that one back lol

ko8e24
05-23-2010, 02:41 PM
Post-game press after game 3 loss to Boston 94-71


Reporter: Dwight, what happened to you guys?


Dwight: ummmmm, I dunno, we just didn't have our heads into the game.



:clap: Little young Dwight and his scholarly comments strike again! :clap:



:facepalm:

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 02:50 PM
Post-game press after game 3 loss to Boston 94-71


Reporter: Dwight, what happened to you guys?


Dwight: ummmmm, I dunno, we just didn't have our heads into the game.



:clap: Little young Dwight and his scholarly comments strike again! :clap:



:facepalm:


What would you have expected him to say? You want the man to lie? They DIDN'T have their heads in the game...Your point would be? Don't just knock on Dwight, to knock on him.

ko8e24
05-23-2010, 02:57 PM
What would you have expected him to say? You want the man to lie? They DIDN'T have their heads in the game...Your point would be? Don't just knock on Dwight, to knock on him.

You lose homecourt advantage completely by losing first 2 games in Orlando, and game 3 in Boston was the game to make something out of this series, and they get blownout.

This is what I mean by the point of not being interested and not understanding the moment. He wasn't even pissed off during the post-game conference, he was just scratching and rubbing his head and hesitating and all nervous like he was called into the principal's office. Showed no anger, didn't show any disgust, and at the end he's like "You know, I just told the guys back there that we just gotta believe" .....:faint:


How many times is he gonna use up that old line. :facepalm:

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 03:09 PM
You lose homecourt advantage completely by losing first 2 games in Orlando, and game 3 in Boston was the game to make something out of this series, and they get blownout.

This is what I mean by the point of not being interested and not understanding the moment. He wasn't even pissed off during the post-game conference, he was just scratching and rubbing his head and hesitating and all nervous like he was called into the principal's office. Showed no anger, didn't show any disgust, and at the end he's like "You know, I just told the guys back there that we just gotta believe" .....:faint:


How many times is he gonna use up that old line. :facepalm:

Did you see him? He was on the verge of almost crying. I'd much rather him be solemn, and calm, looking like he doesn't have much to say, because that's what everyone was thinking. What's being pissed going to do? Nothing.

jim51990
05-23-2010, 03:11 PM
maybe more so he lacks the offensive talent. dwight is at times and will be a great player but he will never be the main guy on a championship team

ko8e24
05-23-2010, 03:13 PM
Did you see him? He was on the verge of almost crying. I'd much rather him be solemn, and calm, looking like he doesn't have much to say, because that's what everyone was thinking. What's being pissed going to do? Nothing.

Well, being happy-go-lucky hasn't helped either for Orlando in last yr finals against the Lakers or this yr's ECF against the Celtics. When Orlando faces adversity, they simply don't know how to approach and overcome it. And it all starts with their leader.


I'm not hating on him, because I don't hate Dwight Howard. I am "criticizing" him because I'm sick of the passive attitude he shows whenever he faces adversity.

the nightman
05-23-2010, 03:14 PM
he lacks the touch. he will never be a good offensive player.

LA_Raiders
05-23-2010, 03:41 PM
Ala LeBroom... Both MVPs dont worth a **** when it matters the most....

69centers
05-23-2010, 03:46 PM
He'll be on a fishing trip in a few days with Patrick Chewing, and they can talk about maturity then. I love how Dwight pretty much guaranteed a victory in this series before it started and how he said after Game 1 he had to not wrestle with us and let us get into his head. Well, he had another technical in Game 3, and I don't think he'll ever learn.

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 03:52 PM
He'll be on a fishing trip in a few days with Patrick Chewing, and they can talk about maturity then. I love how Dwight pretty much guaranteed a victory in this series before it started and how he said after Game 1 he had to not wrestle with us and let us get into his head. Well, he had another technical in Game 3, and I don't think he'll ever learn.

Are you high? Dwight never guaranteed anything.

tredigs
05-23-2010, 03:54 PM
I wouldn't say that he lacks the "maturity" necessary to lead a team to win the championship, but this team does lack a leader, and Dwight is not cut to fit that bill. He's just not a leader, whether it be through his words or through him biting down and showing it through his play. He lacks that competitive fire that champions have.

Is he immature, maybe. But that's not the crux of the issue. He has been thrust into the head honcho position on his team for the fact that he's their marquee player, but the guy is nearly 25 years old and has been in the league for half a decade; if he had the ability to be a true leader, I think it would have surfaced by now.

Hate to Dwight bash because he's a great guy by all accounts, but that's how I see it.

rhino17
05-23-2010, 03:58 PM
He lacks the skill, he is simply a bad offensive player. I cannot believe he has not attempted to develop some type of post move yet.

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 04:00 PM
He lacks the skill, he is simply a bad offensive player. I cannot believe he has not attempted to develop some type of post move yet.

Obviously, he has attempted to learn post-moves. He's just not offensively inclined. Will he get better on offense? Probably. Will he become Shaq on offense? No, so don't even compare him with an offensive-minded type center.

69centers
05-23-2010, 04:01 PM
Are you high? Dwight never guaranteed anything.

Unfortunately, searching now 3 games into the series on Google brings up a million other things than what I was looking for. However, I saw Howard's speech just before the Boston series, and while he did not say "we are going to win the series" he was more like beating around the bush but said something to the effect of how between they way they handled us in the regular season and the way they played in the earlier rounds, they were going to take care of business with us as well. He did say it. If I find a link, I will post it.

ko8e24
05-23-2010, 04:01 PM
I wouldn't say that he lacks the "maturity" necessary to lead a team to win the championship, but this team does lack a leader, and Dwight is not cut to fit that bill. He's just not a leader, whether it be through his words or through him biting down and showing it through his play. He lacks that competitive fire that champions have.

Is he immature, maybe. But that's not the crux of the issue. He has been thrust into the head honcho position on his team for the fact that he's their marquee player, but the guy is nearly 25 years old and has been in the league for half a decade; if he had the ability to be a true leader, I think it would have surfaced by now.

Hate to Dwight bash because he's a great guy by all accounts, but that's how I see it.


Perfectly well put tredigs! :clap:

tredigs
05-23-2010, 04:01 PM
Ala LeBroom... Both MVPs dont worth a **** when it matters the most....

Kobe on the Cavs in the place of Lebron probably loses in round 1, definitely round 2, in case you were curious ; ]

rhino17
05-23-2010, 04:02 PM
Obviously, he has attempted to learn post-moves. He's just not offensively inclined. Will he get better on offense? Probably. Will he become Shaq on offense? No, so don't even compare him with an offensive-minded type center.

offensively inclined? The guy is a freak athlete. Anyone with those kind of tools can be a great offensive player if they want to be, it doesn't seem like he wants to be

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 04:08 PM
offensively inclined? The guy is a freak athlete. Anyone with those kind of tools can be a great offensive player if they want to be, it doesn't seem like he wants to be

Look at Ben Wallace, he was freakishly athletic too, but never reached his 'offensive potential.' Same with Gerald Wallace. None of them truly reached offensive amazement. Just because you're athletic doesn't mean you'll be a great basketball player...

tredigs
05-23-2010, 04:17 PM
Look at Ben Wallace, he was freakishly athletic too, but never reached his 'offensive potential.' Same with Gerald Wallace. None of them truly reached offensive amazement. Just because you're athletic doesn't mean you'll be a great basketball player...

I agree with that, and there's also a lot to be said about the difference in raw athleticism - i.e. run fast, jump high, throw far (whatever) - and having the dexterity and fluidity necessary to be great at dribbling, tricky post moves, touch, etc. That stuff is mostly learned as you grow up over thousands upon thousands of hours of play and just becomes part of your muscle memory, and a lot of people just don't have the genes to get there period. One example I can think of is the fact that Hakeem directly attributes his great footwork, agility, and even his "dream shake" to all the soccer he played as a youth (dream shake is taken from a defenders move in soccer).

I'd almost compare it to learning a new language as an adult compared to as a kid, it's much tougher to learn these things once you're a grown man and have been doing it one way your entire life. Possible, but much harder.

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 04:20 PM
I agree with that, and there's also a lot to be said about the difference in raw athleticism - i.e. run fast, jump high, throw far (whatever) - and having the dexterity and fluidity necessary to be great at dribbling, tricky post moves, touch, etc. That stuff is mostly learned as you grow up over thousands upon thousands of hours of play and just becomes part of your muscle memory, and a lot of people just don't have the genes to get there period. One example I can think of is the fact that Hakeem directly attributes his great footwork, agility, and even his "dream shake" to all the soccer he played as a youth (dream shake is taken from a defenders move in soccer).

I'd almost compare it to learning a new language as an adult compared to as a kid, it's much tougher to learn these things once you're a grown man and have been doing it one way your entire life. Possible, but much harder.

Yeah, I agree. You pretty much it it spot-on. I still think Dwight can go a lot further than he's gone, but he'll need to be focused, and he needs to try things in the game. Not sure why he stopped the jump-shots. Players can't learn from their mistakes, or become better, if they never work on their weaknesses during the game.

AddiX
05-23-2010, 04:26 PM
Dwight lacks the skill and ability to handle other elite big men.

Gasol went nuts on him last year in the finals. Garnett is making Dwight look like an average player.

Dwight needs to spend some time learning new moves and adding to his game, physically hes among the most impressive centers in the league, but he relies way to much on it. He doesnt have 1/4 the moves and knowledge Ewing or Hakeem had.

C_Mund
05-23-2010, 04:45 PM
I just don't think people are giving the celts enough credit.
I'd never argue that Dwight is an amazing offensive centre, but he scores and at a good rate.
It wasn't until he ran into a Boston team with Garnett, Perkins, Wallace and Davis that his deficiencies began to surface.
If the rest of the Magic could step up it'd be different, but it looks to me like the Celtics are on their way to another 'chip.
....and I'd never cheer for the celtics except for when they face Vince.
Is it a coincidence that even though he's better than Hedo he still makes the team worse?

Tragedy
05-23-2010, 05:34 PM
No, he doesn't lack the maturity. If you're talking about lacking the maturity, look no further than LeBron James - That's a baby right there.

Dwight Howard is a solid player - But he's not a guy that can carry his team to a title. They need better players around him, that's all.

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 05:37 PM
No, he doesn't lack the maturity. If you're talking about lacking the maturity, look no further than LeBron James - That's a baby right there.

Dwight Howard is a solid player - But he's not a guy that can carry his team to a title. They need better players around him, that's all.

:clap:
Once again, Tragedy comes up with a win.

tredigs
05-23-2010, 05:41 PM
No, he doesn't lack the maturity. If you're talking about lacking the maturity, look no further than LeBron James - That's a baby right there.

Dwight Howard is a solid player - But he's not a guy that can carry his team to a title. They need better players around him, that's all.

Elaborate.

DengelBerry
05-23-2010, 05:50 PM
He is another Lebron, Amare, Bosh, and Nash. They are amazing and the best at their position but they are no where near to being a leader yet. Give them time.

ko8e24
05-23-2010, 05:53 PM
I just don't think people are giving the celts enough credit.
I'd never argue that Dwight is an amazing offensive centre, but he scores and at a good rate.
It wasn't until he ran into a Boston team with Garnett, Perkins, Wallace and Davis that his deficiencies began to surface.
If the rest of the Magic could step up it'd be different, but it looks to me like the Celtics are on their way to another 'chip.
....and I'd never cheer for the celtics except for when they face Vince.
Is it a coincidence that even though he's better than Hedo he still makes the team worse?


He wasn't scoring that much against the Bobcats in 1st rd either. Getting into foul trouble, but then having the Bobcats big collapse on Howard everytime he got the ball which paved the way for shooters like Lewis and Barnes and for Nelson to do what he was doing in the 1st rd. He was a defensive beast against Charlotte, but far from being adequate on the offensive end. He faced another tough defensive team like Boston, and now he's once again struggling.

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 05:53 PM
Elaborate.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2v0n20z.jpg

:laugh2:

ko8e24
05-23-2010, 05:54 PM
http://i47.tinypic.com/2v0n20z.jpg

:laugh2:

oh boy, this thread is taking a whole new direction. It is now officially another LeBron thread. :pity:

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 05:56 PM
oh boy, this thread is taking a whole new direction. It is now officially another LeBron thread. :pity:

He said to elaborate, so I did. ;)

Frezhnitz
05-23-2010, 06:22 PM
He just doesn't have a offensive game. In order to lead a team and win a championship he must improve in that area. Great defsens but no offense will burn you.

Shadee
05-23-2010, 06:25 PM
He doesn't lack the maturity, he just lacks the offensive skill.

Tragedy
05-23-2010, 06:27 PM
Elaborate.
Kidding me? I don't think I've ever seen a player in the history of the league complain the way he does. It's unbelievable. The amount of times he *****es and glares at the refs each game has to be a record.

People need to get past his great play and not forget that he's a freaking baby.

tredigs
05-23-2010, 06:28 PM
He said to elaborate, so I did. ;)

I can play that game, too!

http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy68/tredigs/lebronjamesyoutube.jpg

http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy68/tredigs/kobeyoutube.jpg

http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy68/tredigs/MJyoutube.jpg

http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy68/tredigs/dwighthowardyoutube.jpg

One thing is not like the other. Guess who!


Kidding me? I don't think I've ever seen a player in the history of the league complain the way he does. It's unbelievable. The amount of times he *****es and glares at the refs each game has to be a record.

People need to get past his great play and not forget that he's a freaking baby.

You say that in the same breath as seemingly defending Dwight for not being like this? Hahah... I'm just going to have to laugh, assume you don't watch Magic basketball, and move on.

knickfan4life
05-23-2010, 06:28 PM
i think he is very mature and has the right pieces to win it all, i think he simply does not have the offensive game necessary to take over a game. he has NO POST game, he has not shot, he can only score within 2 feet of the basket. he cannot get from 6 feet and back his man down and get within 2 feet and dunk.

he has done a HORRRIBLE job developing his offensive game thus far in his career and MUST change that if he ever wants to win. right now hes not making tooo much money which is why he can have great pieces, but once he signs those max deals, the guys he has surrounding him now wont be there b/c he will b taking the money so he must develop his offensive game.

Tragedy
05-23-2010, 06:29 PM
He just doesn't have a offensive game. In order to lead a team and win a championship he must improve in that area. Great defsens but no offense will burn you.
Doesn't have an offensive game? A 20 PPG type of player is a solid offensive player. He's just not a superstar offensive player. He combines fantastic defense with solid scoring skills. He's a Center - He's not SUPPOSE to be the superstar offensive player.

Tragedy
05-23-2010, 06:32 PM
Simply put - I'm saying that some people claim Dwight lacks the 'maturity' but it seems like very few people on this site are calling LeBron that - LeBron is the poster boy for little high school babies who aren't mature enough to lead his team. People need to get off Dwight's nuts..LeBron is suppose to be the superstar, MVP player that should be winning it all every year, whereas Dwight is the solid offensive player and a great defensive player.

I've watched plenty Orlando games. No one in the NBA is perfect - Mostly everyone complains. But Dwight doesn't anything close to the complaining that LeBron does.

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 06:35 PM
Tragedy, marry me :love:

Tragedy
05-23-2010, 06:35 PM
Tragedy, marry me :love:
Will do.:p

ko8e24
05-23-2010, 06:38 PM
Simply put - I'm saying that some people claim Dwight lacks the 'maturity' but it seems like very few people on this site are calling LeBron that - LeBron is the poster boy for little high school babies who aren't mature enough to lead his team. People need to get off Dwight's nuts..LeBron is suppose to be the superstar, MVP player that should be winning it all every year, whereas Dwight is the solid offensive player and a great defensive player.

I've watched plenty Orlando games. No one in the NBA is perfect - Mostly everyone complains. But Dwight doesn't anything close to the complaining that LeBron does.

LeBron is a bit immature yes, but on the court, he's a terrific leader. But he's needs another guy to share that leadership with. Like Kobe shares the leadership role with D-Fish. Something similar to that.

tredigs
05-23-2010, 06:41 PM
Simply put - I'm saying that some people claim Dwight lacks the 'maturity' but it seems like very few people on this site are calling LeBron that - LeBron is the poster boy for little high school babies who aren't mature enough to lead his team. People need to get off Dwight's nuts..LeBron is suppose to be the superstar, MVP player that should be winning it all every year, whereas Dwight is the solid offensive player and a great defensive player.

I've watched plenty Orlando games. No one in the NBA is perfect - Mostly everyone complains. But Dwight doesn't anything close to the complaining that LeBron does.

They all whine like *****es. I don't think Kobe, Lebron or Dwight have ever committed a foul in their life as far as they're concerned. If you think Dwight is on a lesser level of whining, you could not be more wrong. He is butthurt over the call - EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. I hate it. Probably my only peeve I'd have with him as a person.

And it's funny that you say "Lebron is suppose to be the superstar, Dwight's just a solid player. let him be!". Bottom line is that as much as Lebron is supposed to be the superstar - which he obviously is - Dwight is touted as the most dominant big man in the league, and should be able destroy any single coverage put on him. Fact is he can't do that, and probably won't be able to as more competent true-centers come back to the NBA. If he was going to be that player, it would have come during this season - where he is in his prime while any competent competition for him is either over the hill, way too young, or hurt.

Similar to you sick of seeing Dwight bashing, I'm not even a Lebron/Cavs fan but I get sick of seeing him being bashed. Dude has one bad game every couple years and he's labeled a "choker" by all his haters. The expectations put on him are out of this world, and he has had piss poor to mediocre casts every season to work with. It isn't fair to the guy. Jamison and Shaq were their big signs this season? Yeah, they were STELLAR post season performers...

Tragedy
05-23-2010, 06:43 PM
LeBron is a bit immature yes, but on the court, he's a terrific leader. But he's needs another guy to share that leadership with. Like Kobe shares the leadership role with D-Fish. Something similar to that.
LeBron can lead - Sure. But his attitude throughout the entire basketball game, game after game, can't exactly inspire his teammates to go out and play their hardest. It seems like his *****y attitude has rubbed off to other guys like Anderson Varejao. Either way, this isn't about LeBron or the baby that he is. My point was simple - People want to talk about immaturity, that's LeBron. Dwight is far more composed and seems like a hell of a lot better of a guy.

And to be fair, I'm sick and tired of the whole "Dwight doesn't have an offensive game" - Funny how people stopped saying that after he dropped the 30 points the other day. He's a guy that can get 20 PPG, occasionally reach the 25 and 30 mark, and then play fantastic defense all game long. That's Dwight Howard. Like I said, he's not a Kobe and he's not a LeBron - Those offensive players are the MVP's of the league. You can't ask a near 7 foot Center to be the superstar offensive player. That's not every Center's job. Orlando just needs to add other pieces.

NYtilIdie
05-23-2010, 06:46 PM
Kidding me? I don't think I've ever seen a player in the history of the league complain the way he does. It's unbelievable. The amount of times he *****es and glares at the refs each game has to be a record.

People need to get past his great play and not forget that he's a freaking baby.

Trag do you not realise that every player in the NBA does that right? Dwight does it everytime he's fouled. He just looks at the refs in shock and throws his hands up in a "Come on man" manner.

I take it you don't watch much basketball.

jdmd3
05-23-2010, 06:50 PM
What Dwight lacks is the ability to display and inspire passion from his teammates. Throughout the season, Matt Barnes has been the one who has openly criticized and expressed disgust whenever the Magic were playing horrible. Dwight needs to be the man who will confront his teammates when they are not playing up to par.

He also has to channel his emotions away from the calls that he gets and direct it toward getting his teammates fired up just like KG does. He doesn't need to trash talk and curse like KG, instead he needs to show his teammates that he is not content with his team playing lackadaisically or unfocused.

tredigs
05-23-2010, 06:51 PM
LeBron can lead - Sure. But his attitude throughout the entire basketball game, game after game, can't exactly inspire his teammates to go out and play their hardest. It seems like his *****y attitude has rubbed off to other guys like Anderson Varejao. Either way, this isn't about LeBron or the baby that he is. My point was simple - People want to talk about immaturity, that's LeBron. Dwight is far more composed and seems like a hell of a lot better of a guy.

And to be fair, I'm sick and tired of the whole "Dwight doesn't have an offensive game" - Funny how people stopped saying that after he dropped the 30 points the other day. He's a guy that can get 20 PPG, occasionally reach the 25 and 30 mark, and then play fantastic defense all game long. That's Dwight Howard. Like I said, he's not a Kobe and he's not a LeBron - Those offensive players are the MVP's of the league. You can't ask a near 7 foot Center to be the superstar offensive player. That's not every Center's job. Orlando just needs to add other pieces.

I agree with that, and do think that the expectations of the guy need to be tempered. I've said it before, he's Dikembe Mutombo 2.0. Slightly less so defensively, and a bit better offensively (PPG averages for the two don't fly - just look as far as the competition the two faced to see why Dwight puts up higher PPG).

Very good player, but not going to win it as the clear #1 on his team.

ko8e24
05-23-2010, 06:54 PM
LeBron can lead - Sure. But his attitude throughout the entire basketball game, game after game, can't exactly inspire his teammates to go out and play their hardest. It seems like his *****y attitude has rubbed off to other guys like Anderson Varejao. Either way, this isn't about LeBron or the baby that he is. My point was simple - People want to talk about immaturity, that's LeBron. Dwight is far more composed and seems like a hell of a lot better of a guy.

And to be fair, I'm sick and tired of the whole "Dwight doesn't have an offensive game" - Funny how people stopped saying that after he dropped the 30 points the other day. He's a guy that can get 20 PPG, occasionally reach the 25 and 30 mark, and then play fantastic defense all game long. That's Dwight Howard. Like I said, he's not a Kobe and he's not a LeBron - Those offensive players are the MVP's of the league. You can't ask a near 7 foot Center to be the superstar offensive player. That's not every Center's job. Orlando just needs to add other pieces.



If Dwight ever wants to win a championship, he has to play like Shaquille O'Neal in his Laker days. Plain and simple. If he doesn't score 27-28 ppg while avg 12-14 rpg and 2.5 bpg, he's not going to lead a team to a championship, ever!

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 06:55 PM
If Dwight ever wants to win a championship, he has to play like Shaquille O'Neal in his Laker days. Plain and simple. If he doesn't score 27-28 ppg while avg 12-14 rpg and 2.5 bpg, he's not going to lead a team to a championship, ever!

So you're telling me, if Orlando somehow got Wade, we wouldn't win a Champioinship? Dwight doesn't HAVE to average those numbers, he just needs a sidekick.

ko8e24
05-23-2010, 06:56 PM
So you're telling me, if Orlando somehow got Wade, we wouldn't win a Champioinship? Dwight doesn't HAVE to average those numbers, he just needs a sidekick.

I think if D-Wade went to Orlando, he would become the new face of the franchise and Dwight would be his sidekick. ;)

tredigs
05-23-2010, 07:00 PM
So you're telling me, if Orlando somehow got Wade, we wouldn't win a Champioinship? Dwight doesn't HAVE to average those numbers, he just needs a sidekick.

Dwight would be the sidekick, and it wouldn't even be a question - just sayin'.

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 07:03 PM
Dwight would be the sidekick, and it wouldn't even be a question - just sayin'.

I disagree. I think Orlando fans would look at them equally. No player would over-shadow Dwight in a place where he's absolutely loved to death, well, at least for real fans.

Either way, don't know why you had to bring that up tre, you know what I mean.

Shaq had Kobe, Wade, and even LeBron this season. Jordan had Pippen. Magic had Jabbar, Worthy, and everyone else. I mean, it all boils down to the fact, that Stars can't win Championships by themselves. They NEED that other guy.

tredigs
05-23-2010, 07:12 PM
I disagree. I think Orlando fans would look at them equally. No player would over-shadow Dwight in a place where he's absolutely loved to death, well, at least for real fans.

Either way, don't know why you had to bring that up tre, you know what I mean.

Shaq had Kobe, Wade, and even LeBron this season. Jordan had Pippen. Magic had Jabbar, Worthy, and everyone else. I mean, it all boils down to the fact, that Stars can't win Championships by themselves. They NEED that other guy.

...Well, the fans may love Dwight more (at first, after a bit I bet it would equal out), but the best player on the team would be D-Wade - which makes Howard the #2, or "sidekick". Not really a fair term for such good players, but since you used it thought I would let it be known that I'm almost positive Wade would be the one running the team. He's a better player, a proven winner, and has the competitive fire that the team lacks and would rally around.

I'm actually not even sure who the clear "#1" would be if Lebron and D-Wade, or D-Wade and Kobe played together.

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 07:13 PM
Well the fans may love Dwight more (at first, after a bit I bet it would equal out), but the best player on the team would be D-Wade - which makes Howard the #2, or "sidekick". Not really a fare term for such good players, but since you used it thought I would let it be known that Wade would be the one running the team. He's a better player, a proven winner, and has the competitive fire that the team lacks and would rally around. Anyway...

Okay, but do you understand what I mean? ..

tredigs
05-23-2010, 07:20 PM
Okay, but do you understand what I mean? ..

Of course. Do you understand what I mean? The better player is the leader... regardless if they're the center or not. Shaq was better than young Kobe - and probably any Kobe - hence Kobe being the "sidekick". In Miami, Shaq was Wade's sidekick. It's semantics, but Wade gets a lack of respect sometimes, so I feel obligated to say that.

RadiantShot
05-23-2010, 07:25 PM
Of course. Do you understand what I mean? The better player is the leader... regardless if they're the center or not. Shaq was better than young Kobe - and probably any Kobe - hence Kobe being the "sidekick". In Miami, Shaq was Wade's sidekick. It's semantics, but Wade gets a lack of respect sometimes, so I feel obligated to say that.

It doesn't matter about what you mean, tre. What I'm saying is, disregard the whole sidekick talk. I don't care who is who's sidekick. I'm saying, Every player needs another great player to help win them a championship. I could care less about the sidekick conversation. Haha.

ko8e24
05-23-2010, 07:31 PM
It doesn't matter about what you mean, tre. What I'm saying is, disregard the whole sidekick talk. I don't care who is who's sidekick. I'm saying, Every player needs another great player to help win them a championship. I could care less about the sidekick conversation. Haha.

Lol, you guys have gotten way off topic. First with this whole LeBron is a ...... youtube thing, and now with the sidekick thing.

Stay on topic guys. :laugh2:

tredigs
05-23-2010, 07:46 PM
Lol, you guys have gotten way off topic. First with this whole LeBron is a ...... youtube thing, and now with the sidekick thing.

Stay on topic guys. :laugh2:

Haha... isn't it better that way? I never know what the topic is after the first couple pages - I just start blathering like a drunk sailor.

ko8e24
05-23-2010, 07:49 PM
Haha... isn't it better that way? I never know what the topic is after the first couple pages - I just start blathering like a drunk sailor.

Haha, "better" is not the word I'm looking for. Probably "entertaining" :laugh2:

ToLiveInDieInLA
05-23-2010, 07:58 PM
He is soft, lacks any decent post game, he messes around on the sidelines (like Lebron) dancing around, smiling, laughing and just acting like a foolilsh kid. He isn't a true winner.

drew_ellis_23
05-23-2010, 07:59 PM
Dwight Howard was money until this series. NBA is scripted. Lakers will get revenge on the Celtics. If you don't like it, don't watch it.

drew_ellis_23
05-23-2010, 08:00 PM
He is soft, lacks any decent post game, he messes around on the sidelines (like Lebron) dancing around, smiling, laughing and just acting like a foolilsh kid. He isn't a true winner.

A true winner rapes the woman cleaning his hotel room.:clap:

tredigs
05-23-2010, 08:02 PM
A true winner rapes the woman cleaning his hotel room.:clap:

Can of worms - meet can opener.

surf and turf
05-23-2010, 08:16 PM
I love Dwight Howard, he's obviously the most gifted center in the game today, he is the best shotblocker and one of the best rebounders in the league today.


But do you think he lacks a killer instinct, and do you feel sometimes that he doesn't understand the tense situation at hand and he just doesn't know how to handle it. Is he just too young mentally that he just doesn't "get it" right now at this stage of his young NBA career?


I remember watching the Magic-Celtics game yesterday, and with 2 1/2 minutes remaining in the game, the Magic had a 1 pt lead. Coming out of a time out and commercial break, they showed Dwight smiling to the fans, and pointing and joking around and he had lost all focus of the game while Rashard Lewis was trying to get him in the correct defensive position tell him "big fella, stop joking around, Boston has the ball, get in your defensive position".

I remember when the team leaders of Howard and Nelson were meeting the team leaders of Bryant and Fisher at halfcourt before game 4, Kobe was getting the attention of having that "pissed off playoff mode facial expression", and Dwight is joking around before the game saying "C'mon Kobe, I'm gonna make you smile". You don't say such goody-goody things before your "opponent/enemy" on the greatest stage of them all, the NBA FINALS. Yes they were Olympic teammates, but things change when you're competing against each other for the NBA Title.

To me, he doesn't seem like that serious, mature leader that a basketball team needs. He doesn't understand the severity and tense moments of a situation.


People can say all of that he told Jameer at the end of the finals to stay on the bench and watch the Lakers celebrate to know how much it hurts. But I just think that was one of those "spur of the moment" type of things that you won't see too often from Dwight Howard.



It's very good to have a personality where he's doing all the Superman stuff and impressions of other people, but it's another thing to be shying away from adversity and saying cliche things like "If we do the things that we know how to do, we should be fine". He said that when Orlando went 3-1 to the Lakers in the 2009 NBA Finals, and when Orlando lost game 1 against Boston.

I don't see the sense of urgency and I always see the lack of "understanding of the moment" from Dwight Howard, and that is why right now, I don't think he is the type of intense and "knowing of the situtation" type of leader that is needed to lead a team to a championship.



Do others feel like this as well. And Magic fans, please don't feel insulted, this is a simple observation I've made. I like Dwight Howard, but at this stage of his young career, he simply does not have "the 'it' FACTOR" to lead a team to a title.

I just think he lacks the shooting touch to be the number 1 option on a offense. Everything is outstanding untill the ball leaves his hand. They either have to change their offense and get him more transition baskets or go and get a all- star caliber power forward to become their first option. On the offensive side of the ball they have to start looking at him like he was Ron Artest. Sure, he can get you 30 but do you want to depend on it and have every possesion go through him?

ko8e24
05-24-2010, 09:32 PM
You get a free pass for 1 bad game, but not 2 out of 3 games...

Dwight Howard needs to stop being mentione:clap:d among the all time great centers.. It's a slap in the face to the all time greats to be associated with this stiff.

Now, he is still young and could still prove me wrong in the future.. but for now, Dwight Howard has nothing on Shaq, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Kareem, Hakeem, Moses, Wilt or Russel...

He's not even close to that level..

Why, because those guys didnt DISAPPEAR when it mattered most..

In 2 out of the 3 games this series, Dwighht Howard hasn't even been mediocre, he's been AWFUL.. and its not like hes being shut down by another great Center.. he's being shutdown by A) Kendrick Perkins B) an OLD Rasheed Wallace and C) 6'8 Glen Davis


Game 1-- 39 min... 13pts, 12reb, 2ast, 30%FG, 58%FT, 5 blk, 0 stl, 7 TO

Game 3-- 39 min... 7pts, 7reb, 1ast, 30%FG, 25%FT, 3blk, 1stl, 1TO


Sorry, but those are NOT 1st team ALL NBA type numbers, not even close... in game 1, yea he got a double double, but shot god awful for the field and commited 7 turnovers.. and game 2 was even worse, he lad less turnovers but only made 1 FT, and didnt get double digit rebounds for 2 games in a row..

Im probably gonna get hated on, but i firmly believe that Dwight Howard is OVERRATED:facepalm:


Settle down!

http://prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=487238

td0tsfinest
05-24-2010, 09:50 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it AGAIN

This is your first post?

kntresistheheat
05-24-2010, 09:52 PM
This is your first post?


I just saw that :facepalm::laugh2::laugh2:

AI4MVP
05-24-2010, 09:53 PM
i never thought he was one of the greatest. i dotn even think hes the best center right now. ive said it before and ill say it again. Andrew Bogut is the most complete center in the league

Nirvanaskurdt
05-24-2010, 09:54 PM
FAIL :pity:

Korman12
05-24-2010, 09:55 PM
Dwight Howard needs to stop being mentioned among the all time great centers

Who says that?

Yeah, some people may overrate him right now, but no one is calling him Kareem or anything.

montafan
05-24-2010, 09:58 PM
100% agree he isnt on any of their levels
i do believe he has the physical tools to be on their levels if he just gets a more consistent and dependable offensive game
BUT... he isnt a winner, plain and simple
he lacks that killer instict that superstars have and most disappointing is that he isnt intimidating. he is a gigantic center who no one is afraid and that is his biggest problem
dwight is a funny guy and all and likes to enjoy himself off the court which is a non-issue because plenty of superstars are nice off the court... just like shaq he was an entertainer but he never let anyone mess with him and he met every challenge head on and talked so much ****. he love to **** with anyone who even considered themselves on his level. can you imagine kendrick perkins playing against shaq in his prime. dwight isnt serious enough and doesnt take on personal challenges well enough.
until dwight grows a pair and essentially starts acting like an ******* that everyone is afraid of and he wont win a championship

n83417
05-24-2010, 10:03 PM
I don't recall anyone ever comparing Howard to any of the mentioned centers. EVER.

97NYer
05-24-2010, 10:05 PM
I agree. Not sure I ever heard him mentioned with all time greats, but yes he's not even close as of now.

AI4MVP
05-24-2010, 10:06 PM
I don't recall anyone ever comparing Howard to any of the mentioned centers. EVER.

dwight howard gets compared to bill russelll alot :facepalm:

jackdawson
05-24-2010, 10:06 PM
Dwight Howard might be the best center right now but he is way overrated. Some people overrate him a lot. He is no where near any all time lists for the love of God. Like I said before he is taller and slightly better offensive version of Ben Wallace, still I would take Ben's defense in his prime over Dwight's D.

jackdawson
05-24-2010, 10:08 PM
I don't recall anyone ever comparing Howard to any of the mentioned centers. EVER.

Have you seen Raph posting? Almost one out of his three posts will say it. He thinks Dwight is better than Russell:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: I know he has been lost now and doesn't show up much since ECF started.

masalex1205
05-24-2010, 10:10 PM
You get a free pass for 1 bad game, but not 2 out of 3 games...

Dwight Howard needs to stop being mentione:clap:d among the all time great centers.. It's a slap in the face to the all time greats to be associated with this stiff.

Now, he is still young and could still prove me wrong in the future.. but for now, Dwight Howard has nothing on Shaq, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Kareem, Hakeem, Moses, Wilt or Russel...

He's not even close to that level..

Why, because those guys didnt DISAPPEAR when it mattered most..

In 2 out of the 3 games this series, Dwighht Howard hasn't even been mediocre, he's been AWFUL.. and its not like hes being shut down by another great Center.. he's being shutdown by A) Kendrick Perkins B) an OLD Rasheed Wallace and C) 6'8 Glen Davis


Game 1-- 39 min... 13pts, 12reb, 2ast, 30%FG, 58%FT, 5 blk, 0 stl, 7 TO

Game 3-- 39 min... 7pts, 7reb, 1ast, 30%FG, 25%FT, 3blk, 1stl, 1TO


Sorry, but those are NOT 1st team ALL NBA type numbers, not even close... in game 1, yea he got a double double, but shot god awful for the field and commited 7 turnovers.. and game 2 was even worse, he lad less turnovers but only made 1 FT, and didnt get double digit rebounds for 2 games in a row..

Im probably gonna get hated on, but i firmly believe that Dwight Howard is OVERRATED:facepalm:

You know, I think, even if your not a great communicator, you bring up a few good points

But you speak of Perkins, Wallace, KG, and Davis as if there a frontline of Al Jefferson and Stoudemire. Davis isn't an amazing defendner but Wallace, Perkins, and KG are all very good to great defenders.

AI4MVP
05-24-2010, 10:11 PM
i think if DeAndre Jordan got the same opportunities and role as dwight in the begining of his career that he could be just as good

AI4MVP
05-24-2010, 10:18 PM
ok this is ridiculous. he might not be one of the greats, but hes pretty good. and the magic need to give him the damn ball when they are struggling like they are right now. is anyone watching this game? holy ****

MacFitz92
05-24-2010, 10:52 PM
I think a common misconception is that people question his maturity. I just think he doesn't show the same level of urgency to win as some of the other stars. In example, he doesn't look like he is any kind of "I-will-win-no-matter-what" mode when he plays. It could just be his personality, but he will always be questioned about his maturity untill he changes his philosophy on basketball.

0nekhmer
05-24-2010, 11:01 PM
He really does need to develop a solid post game. obviously he wont be able to handle the ball like pau, but he can use simple moves like Shaq did.

NYtilIdie
05-24-2010, 11:05 PM
dwight howard gets compared to bill russelll alot :facepalm:

Because they're very similar. Both were very raw offensively, but used their superb defensive skills to make up for it.

ko8e24
05-24-2010, 11:48 PM
Dwight Howard today played like a fkn BEAST AND MAN, not a MAN-CHILD. but a MAN!

Raph12
05-25-2010, 01:52 AM
Have you seen Raph posting? Almost one out of his three posts will say it. He thinks Dwight is better than Russell:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: I know he has been lost now and doesn't show up much since ECF started.

Keep your panties dry bud, I'm touring Europe, don't have as much time to do this stuff. I'll admit when I'm wrong, the Magic aren't legit contenders and their go-to guy (VC) is as soft as a marshmellow.

Dwight is better than Russell and any other center not named Chamberlain in the 60s... He doesn't touch most of the all-time greats, but Russell was overrated, so was basketball in the 50s-60s.

jackdawson
05-25-2010, 02:14 AM
Thanks for the quote. I have been looking for a quote but couldn't find any as funny as this one...Running with your hypothesis, Ben Wallace is the greatest center to ever step on a basketball court.

Raph12
05-25-2010, 02:18 AM
Thanks for the quote. I have been looking for a quote but couldn't find any as funny as this one...Running with your hypothesis, Ben Wallace is the greatest center to ever step on a basketball court.

Ben was one of the greatest rebounding/shot blocking big men in his prime, that's it. Ben has never even scored 30 in any type of game, let alone 30 and 32 in two ECFs games against defenders like Perk/Sheed/Davis/KG as the #1 option on his team. Ben Wallace is more like Bill Russell than anyone, but Russell is a much better passer, that's about it.

JNA17
05-25-2010, 02:22 AM
no not really. He's got a lot of heart. I think maybe he just needs a killer instinct.

jackdawson
05-25-2010, 02:26 AM
I'm glad you're sporting a quote of mine on your sig and you're an idiot, I'm done arguing with you.

Ben was one of the greatest rebounding/shot blocking big men in his prime, that's it. Ben has never even scored 30 in any type of game, let alone 30 and 32 in two ECFs games against defenders like Perk/Sheed/Davis/KG as the #1 option on his team. Ben Wallace is more like Bill Russell than anyone, but Russell is a much better passer, that's about it.

Dwight Howard wouldn't exist in the 90's and even in the early 2000's. He is overrated. The fact that not having Yao Ming for a year and half in the league has helped a lot to hype this non-factor.

Raph12
05-25-2010, 02:37 AM
Someone is mad ;) Dwight Howard wouldn't exist in the 90's and even in the early 2000's. He is overrated. The fact that not having Yao Ming for a year and half in the league has helped a lot to hype this non-factor.

The fact that Yao got out of the 1st round once, only to lose in the 2nd is enough for me. Yao outplays Dwight 1v1, but Dwight's impact on the game is much larger than Yao's. Dwight's underrated by most and overrated by some, I'll admit I love him, his play and his personality, so I may overdo it a bit, but everyone else gives him so little credit, someone has to even it out.

For example, Dwight went for 32pts (game-high), 16rbs (game-high), 4blks (game-high) on 13-19 shooting (game-best), but everyone has already overlooked it. Dwight's scored 30 twice in this series against the Celts, no big man has even scored 30 once against the Celts in the playoffs since they got KG and Ray. Everyone says Pau's the best big man in the league, but he couldn't even score 20 against the Celts in the 08 Finals, like I said, Dwight's underrated by many (like you) and overrated by some (like me).

tredigs
05-25-2010, 02:47 AM
The fact that Yao got out of the 1st round once, only to lose in the 2nd is enough for me. Yao outplays Dwight 1v1, but Dwight's impact on the game is much larger than Yao's. Dwight's underrated by most and overrated by some, I'll admit I love him, his play and his personality, so I may overdo it a bit, but everyone else gives him so little credit, someone has to even it out.

For example, Dwight went for 32pts (game-high), 16rbs (game-high), 4blks (game-high) on 13-19 shooting (game-best), but everyone has already overlooked it. Dwight's scored 30 twice in this series against the Celts, no big man has even scored 30 once against the Celts in the playoffs since they got KG and Ray. Everyone says Pau's the best big man in the league, but he couldn't even score 20 against the Celts in the 08 Finals, like I said, Dwight's underrated by many (like you) and overrated by some (like me).

Your best post on Dwight, good job Raphy.

jackdawson
05-25-2010, 02:49 AM
The fact that Yao got out of the 1st round once, only to lose in the 2nd is enough for me. Yao outplays Dwight 1v1, but Dwight's impact on the game is much larger than Yao's. Dwight's underrated by most and overrated by some, I'll admit I love him, his play and his personality, so I may overdo it a bit, but everyone else gives him so little credit, someone has to even it out.

For example, Dwight went for 32pts (game-high), 16rbs (game-high), 4blks (game-high) on 13-19 shooting (game-best), but everyone has already overlooked it. Dwight's scored 30 twice in this series against the Celts, no big man has even scored 30 once against the Celts in the playoffs since they got KG and Ray. Everyone says Pau's the best big man in the league, but he couldn't even score 20 against the Celts in the 08 Finals, like I said, Dwight's underrated by many (like you) and overrated by some (like me).


Fair enough. Thanks. He is not underrated but ridiculous comments by some about him being all time this and that make people dislike him. Just like what happened to Derrick Rose. Dwight is pretty good on D but his offensive game is far from decent. And he is very very inconsistent too on that end. Flashy dunks don't make up for that. Reason why people say Pau Gasol is the best big man is because he has got very very good post moves (finesse) and he is very consistent.

Raph12
05-25-2010, 02:55 AM
Fair enough. Thanks. He is not underrated but ridiculous comments by some about him being all time this and that makes people dislike him. Just like what happened to Derrick Rose. Dwight is pretty good on D but his offesive game is far from decent. And he is very very inconsistent too on that end. Flashy dunks don't make up for that. Reason people say Pau Gasol is the best big man is because he has got very very good post moves (finesse) and he is very consistent.

Anyone who says that Dwight is a Top 10 center at this point in his career is a homer. I don't think he is, but I don't think Bill Russell is up there either, neither is Nate Thurmond or most of the 50s/60s centers (besides Wilt). He's the best defensive player in the league and at 24, he'll only continue to get better, I agree his offense isn't consistent, but the fact that he can dominate already scoring over 30 against a defense like Boston, shows hope for the future. I agree Pau is the best all-around big man, but Dwight's impact puts him way ahead of Pau, having Dwight in the paint opens the game up, just imagine if Dwight played with Kobe. We'll see what Pau does against the Celts next round, then I'll let you know who the best big in the league is.

robdizzle3
05-25-2010, 03:30 AM
The fact that Yao got out of the 1st round once, only to lose in the 2nd is enough for me. Yao outplays Dwight 1v1, but Dwight's impact on the game is much larger than Yao's. Dwight's underrated by most and overrated by some, I'll admit I love him, his play and his personality, so I may overdo it a bit, but everyone else gives him so little credit, someone has to even it out.

For example, Dwight went for 32pts (game-high), 16rbs (game-high), 4blks (game-high) on 13-19 shooting (game-best), but everyone has already overlooked it. Dwight's scored 30 twice in this series against the Celts, no big man has even scored 30 once against the Celts in the playoffs since they got KG and Ray. Everyone says Pau's the best big man in the league, but he couldn't even score 20 against the Celts in the 08 Finals, like I said, Dwight's underrated by many (like you) and overrated by some (like me).

The spotlight is on Dwight to do well now and he's stepping his game up. Whether its jokin with jameer, laughing on the sideline or having a convo with a kid before overtime, he is a dominate force and the best cenetr in the game bar none. Defensively, the guy is insane and impacts where and how teams operate on the offensive end. he doesnt even have to jump and he is already in the players head, because they know whst he is capable of. I see the celtics were trying to punk Dwight this series, but as we've seen these last couple of games, they are sadly mistaken. Outside of Jameer, but just game 4 really, Dwight has been doing it on his own, while getting hacked and slapped and no respect from the refs, but continues to be effective. Im not a Magic fan, but this guy is rwady, dont know about the rest of the team.

ldc62
05-28-2010, 01:11 AM
Keep your panties dry bud, I'm touring Europe, don't have as much time to do this stuff. I'll admit when I'm wrong, the Magic aren't legit contenders and their go-to guy (VC) is as soft as a marshmellow.

Dwight is better than Russell and any other center not named Chamberlain in the 60s... He doesn't touch most of the all-time greats, but Russell was overrated, so was basketball in the 50s-60s.

You realize Wilt would "wilt" away in big games... he won maybe 2 rings, but he never could beat Russel.... Dwight isn't even better than a healthy Yao.

Raph12
05-28-2010, 01:37 AM
You realize Wilt would "wilt" away in big games... he won maybe 2 rings, but he never could beat Russel.... Dwight isn't even better than a healthy Yao.

You mean the Yao that's watching Dwight lead his team to maybe the greatest comeback of alltime? Or the Yao that watched Dwight in the NBA Finals last season? Or how about the Yao that watched Dwight receive the DPOY award in consecutive seasons? Maybe you're talking about the Yao who couldn't get out of the first round with a prime Tmac? Or the one who is spends more minutes on the bench than he does on the floor?... Get off bro, Yao may outplay him 1v1 (his height/size gives everyone trouble), but Dwight will always be the better player.

ldc62
05-28-2010, 04:04 AM
You mean the Yao that's watching Dwight lead his team to maybe the greatest comeback of alltime? Or the Yao that watched Dwight in the NBA Finals last season? Or how about the Yao that watched Dwight receive the DPOY award in consecutive seasons? Maybe you're talking about the Yao who couldn't get out of the first round with a prime Tmac? Or the one who is spends more minutes on the bench than he does on the floor?... Get off bro, Yao may outplay him 1v1 (his height/size gives everyone trouble), but Dwight will always be the better player.

Yawn... homerism at its finest. But thats to be expected, since I am talking to the person who thinks Wilt>Dwight>Russel. The only real dominant post player the Magic ever had was the big oaf named Shaq (Ewing was aight, but what did he accomplish with the Magic?).

rhino17
05-28-2010, 05:00 AM
The fact that Yao got out of the 1st round once, only to lose in the 2nd is enough for me. Yao outplays Dwight 1v1, but Dwight's impact on the game is much larger than Yao's. Dwight's underrated by most and overrated by some, I'll admit I love him, his play and his personality, so I may overdo it a bit, but everyone else gives him so little credit, someone has to even it out.

You couldn't be more wrong, Houston has been a top 5 defensive team in the league for the last 5-6 years (#1 for 2-3 of these season) All of a sudden, Yao goes out and they drop into the 20s. Dwight is a better shot blocker, but Yao is the better one on one defender, by a lot. Yao's offensive game is also 10x better than Howards. When healthy, Yao is the best center in the NBA. You forget that Dwight has been on some of the most talented and deepest teams in the NBA, while Yao has been on a team favored in a series exactly one time. He has never been surrounded by much talent (until last season where if he would not have gotten hurt, the Rockets beat the Lakers)

Raph12
05-28-2010, 12:44 PM
You couldn't be more wrong, Houston has been a top 5 defensive team in the league for the last 5-6 years (#1 for 2-3 of these season) All of a sudden, Yao goes out and they drop into the 20s. Dwight is a better shot blocker, but Yao is the better one on one defender, by a lot. Yao's offensive game is also 10x better than Howards. When healthy, Yao is the best center in the NBA. You forget that Dwight has been on some of the most talented and deepest teams in the NBA, while Yao has been on a team favored in a series exactly one time. He has never been surrounded by much talent (until last season where if he would not have gotten hurt, the Rockets beat the Lakers)

Orlando has been the #1 defensive team in the last two years and #5 the two before that (since his sophmore season). Yao had Tmac in his prime, with solid role players, it's not my fault Dwight is a health freak and stays healthy 100% of the time. Yao has had great teams and still sucked, he disappears in big games and his Rockets took the Lakers to 7 games without him in the second round (they were 1-2 with Yao and 2-2 without). Dwight can guard any center 1v1 (besides Yao, his height gives him trouble) and has the footspeed to shutdown PFs like Garnett, Yao is basically a big block they put in the way to make the centers/players go over/around him. Yao can't get out of the 1st round and when he did, his team fared better without him. Stop talking about the guy who spends more time in a suit than he does on the court. Get back at me next season when the Rockets are still 5th-8th, eliminated in the 1st/2nd round and the Magic are #1 or #2 in the league, playing in the ECFs.

ldc62
05-28-2010, 01:12 PM
Orlando has been the #1 defensive team in the last two years and #5 the two before that (since his sophmore season). Yao had Tmac in his prime, with solid role players, it's not my fault Dwight is a health freak and stays healthy 100% of the time. Yao has had great teams and still sucked, he disappears in big games and his Rockets took the Lakers to 7 games without him in the second round (they were 1-2 with Yao and 2-2 without). Dwight can guard any center 1v1 (besides Yao, his height gives him trouble) and has the footspeed to shutdown PFs like Garnett, Yao is basically a big block they put in the way to make the centers/players go over/around him. Yao can't get out of the 1st round and when he did, his team fared better without him. Stop talking about the guy who spends more time in a suit than he does on the court. Get back at me next season when the Rockets are still 5th-8th, eliminated in the 1st/2nd round and the Magic are #1 or #2 in the league, playing in the ECFs.

I would disagree with that... the team played better when Tmac was out. Tmac is a cancer.... I would've thought a MAgic fan would agree.

Anon
05-28-2010, 01:28 PM
Let me know when Yao plays more than half a season.

rhino17
05-28-2010, 01:48 PM
Orlando has been the #1 defensive team in the last two years and #5 the two before that (since his sophmore season). Yao had Tmac in his prime, with solid role players, it's not my fault Dwight is a health freak and stays healthy 100% of the time. Yao has had great teams and still sucked, he disappears in big games and his Rockets took the Lakers to 7 games without him in the second round (they were 1-2 with Yao and 2-2 without). Dwight can guard any center 1v1 (besides Yao, his height gives him trouble) and has the footspeed to shutdown PFs like Garnett, Yao is basically a big block they put in the way to make the centers/players go over/around him. Yao can't get out of the 1st round and when he did, his team fared better without him. Stop talking about the guy who spends more time in a suit than he does on the court. Get back at me next season when the Rockets are still 5th-8th, eliminated in the 1st/2nd round and the Magic are #1 or #2 in the league, playing in the ECFs.
When has Yao ever had a great team besides 08-09? You are clueless

Raph12
05-28-2010, 02:11 PM
I would disagree with that... the team played better when Tmac was out. Tmac is a cancer.... I would've thought a MAgic fan would agree.

1-2 with Yao vs LA, 2-2 without Yao vs LA, small sample size, but they still did better without him against the eventual world champs.


When has Yao ever had a great team besides 08-09? You are clueless

2002-03: Francis, Mobley, Kenny Thomas, Posey, Rice, Eddie Griffin, Maurice Taylor and Cato

2003-04: Francis, Mobley, Jim Jackson, Maurice Taylor, Cato and Weatherspoon

2004-05: Tmac, Mike James, Jim Jackson, Mutombo, Sura, Hayes, Barry, Wesley and Juwan Howard

2005-06: Tmac, Swift, Alston, Mutombo, Head, Hayes, Wesley, Barry, Bogans and Juwan Howard

2006-07: Tmac, Scola, Battier, Alston, Mutombo, Head, Hayes and Juwan Howard

2007-08: Tmac, Scola, Battier, Alston, Landry, Brooks, Mutombo, Hayes and Bobby Jackson

You'd better believe that if Dwight Howard had those rosters, he'd make it out of the 1st round at least once in those six seasons. In the short six seasons Dwight has played, he's already led his team to the 1st round in his 3rd season, 2nd round in his 4th season, Finals in his 5th season and poised to complete the greatest comeback ever to make it there again in his 6th season... Get off bro, Yao just isn't leadership material.

ballpd05
05-28-2010, 02:19 PM
He has multiple flaws, but immaturity isn't what holding him back...although it does hurt him at times. But singling out one little thing isn't the right way to go. You have to look at his all-around game in addition.

But we'll see. He's still very young. Like LeBron, he's got a good 10 years or so left of his prime.

I'll give him 7 years unless he gets more offensively skilled. His game is too much relying on his athleticism and his motor, so when that starts to go I think so will his game. He won't be that athletic and active too much past 32.

Unless he can find a post game and a shooting touch he will grow up to be like Mutombo when he was old.

ldc62
05-28-2010, 02:41 PM
2002-03: Francis, Mobley, Kenny Thomas, Posey, Rice, Eddie Griffin, Maurice Taylor and Cato

2003-04: Francis, Mobley, Jim Jackson, Maurice Taylor, Cato and Weatherspoon

2004-05: Tmac, Mike James, Jim Jackson, Mutombo, Sura, Hayes, Barry, Wesley and Juwan Howard

2005-06: Tmac, Swift, Alston, Mutombo, Head, Hayes, Wesley, Barry, Bogans and Juwan Howard

2006-07: Tmac, Scola, Battier, Alston, Mutombo, Head, Hayes and Juwan Howard

2007-08: Tmac, Scola, Battier, Alston, Landry, Brooks, Mutombo, Hayes and Bobby Jackson

You'd better believe that if Dwight Howard had those rosters, he'd make it out of the 1st round at least once in those six seasons. In the short six seasons Dwight has played, he's already led his team to the 1st round in his 3rd season, 2nd round in his 4th season, Finals in his 5th season and poised to complete the greatest comeback ever to make it there again in his 6th season... Get off bro, Yao just isn't leadership material.

The teams you mentioned are a joke... No real PG outside Francis (no Rafer is not good, please don't give me the: Magic had him and got to the finals... NO you guys had Hedo who carried the team), who is another one of those me first guys, just like Tmac. Funny how the Magic had both and you should know what kinda guys they are, yet you are totally ignoring that fact.

Tmac was the main guy on those teams... Yao was the 2nd guy. If Yao was in the East, I guarantee he would've made it past the first round. But it is what it is....

ballpd05
05-28-2010, 02:42 PM
1-2 with Yao vs LA, 2-2 without Yao vs LA, small sample size, but they still did better without him against the eventual world champs.



2002-03: Francis, Mobley, Kenny Thomas, Posey, Rice, Eddie Griffin, Maurice Taylor and Cato

2003-04: Francis, Mobley, Jim Jackson, Maurice Taylor, Cato and Weatherspoon

2004-05: Tmac, Mike James, Jim Jackson, Mutombo, Sura, Hayes, Barry, Wesley and Juwan Howard

2005-06: Tmac, Swift, Alston, Mutombo, Head, Hayes, Wesley, Barry, Bogans and Juwan Howard

2006-07: Tmac, Scola, Battier, Alston, Mutombo, Head, Hayes and Juwan Howard

2007-08: Tmac, Scola, Battier, Alston, Landry, Brooks, Mutombo, Hayes and Bobby Jackson

You'd better believe that if Dwight Howard had those rosters, he'd make it out of the 1st round at least once in those six seasons. In the short six seasons Dwight has played, he's already led his team to the 1st round in his 3rd season, 2nd round in his 4th season, Finals in his 5th season and poised to complete the greatest comeback ever to make it there again in his 6th season... Get off bro, Yao just isn't leadership material.

It's kind of unfair to say they are 1-2 without Yao since he was hurt in 4 and I thought they were going to win it anyway with Yao playing. The 2 games they lost without Yao they got killed because they struggled to score in the halfcourt without him. I would bet that that Rocket team would beat that Magic team the Lakers would beat later on in the playoffs.

And to Yao's credit he played in a much tougher conference so I am not 100% sure that adding Dwight to those rocket teams automatically makes them that much better because Yao is business like offensively and is no slouch defensively.

Please don't count Steve Francis & Cuttino Mobley teams as quality because both were Dwight's teammate too and they did nothing when he was there (missing the playoffs both years with him I believe).

I do give Dwight credit that he is one of the few people who can defend the rim from Lebron James, so that in itself helped the magic to the finals, that and Ilgauskus was too weak and too slow to guard him, and is something I don't think Yao can do. Sometimes it is more of who you draw and how you match up.

Like I said earlier I think the Rockets could've beaten the Magic, but I don't think they would have beaten the Cavs.

RadiantShot
05-28-2010, 02:51 PM
:laugh:
Yao is a marsh-mellow.

Cromedome
05-28-2010, 03:03 PM
Howard is a dirty player!! I hate playing against people who are clumsy with their elbows.

RadiantShot
05-28-2010, 03:13 PM
Howard is a dirty player!! I hate playing against people who are clumsy with their elbows.

Maybe Big Baby is just an idiot? :shrug:

http://twitpic.com/1qsga3

tugboat424
05-28-2010, 03:23 PM
Ok so I'm skipping a lot of the ramblings on here because a lot of the same stuff is being repeated and making no sense.

Here's my take on Dwight coming from someone who has watched him, being a Magic fan, since he first came in the league.

Am I happy where Dwight is with his offensive game? No. However, I think it's time we stop equating all success with offense. Someone on here said that unless he develops a more successful and consistent offensive game, his career prime will end by 30 and I agree.

HOWEVER, the stuff this guy does on the defensive end is insane. Especially watching this Celtics series, watch Rajon Rondo when he penetrates. If Dwight Howard is not there, he is getting easily another 6-8 ppg. I wish there was a way to measure not only Dwight's blocked shots, but altered shots/shots not taken because Dwight is there. He is an AWESOME presence on the defensive end and what he does down on that end is just as valuable as any offensive output any other player puts up in the league.

Sure he is getting most of his points off of pure athleticism at this point in his career - I completely agree. I am slowly starting to see that change. Instead of that running hook, I finally see him drop stepping hard and using a baby-hook which I have been screaming for forever. Dwight is an elite and dominant Superstar in this league - defense is just as important as offense, and the fact that Dwight can put up 20 ppg. AND the things he does defensively SURELY cements him in that category.

Now, as for the maturity thing, I agree and disagree. Can Dwight's antics take away from his performance on the court? Possibly. But why does there need to be only 1 proven way to show determination? Who says you need to stick your bottom jaw out to show everybody just how competitive and focused on winning you are? Would I like to see Dwight maybe more fiery on the court? Yeah, probably, but I don't think he has to change completely who he is. I think he wants to win. And I think he has the heart and work ethic to show it. I know his offensive skills hasn't necessarily shown it but you can't question the dude's work ethic - he's a freak and how many games has he ever missed to injury?

Bottom line about maturity and him not having it - Truly crazy people don't have to go out and tell others they're crazy. Same thing should go with determination and wanting to win - you don't need to come up with a pre-meditated bottom jaw jutting out to prove to everyone you want to win. Anyone who saw Dwight Howard play game 5 saw determination and someone playing their butt off.

rhino17
05-28-2010, 03:50 PM
2002-03: Francis, Mobley, Kenny Thomas, Posey, Rice, Eddie Griffin, Maurice Taylor and Cato

2003-04: Francis, Mobley, Jim Jackson, Maurice Taylor, Cato and Weatherspoon

2004-05: Tmac, Mike James, Jim Jackson, Mutombo, Sura, Hayes, Barry, Wesley and Juwan Howard

2005-06: Tmac, Swift, Alston, Mutombo, Head, Hayes, Wesley, Barry, Bogans and Juwan Howard

2006-07: Tmac, Scola, Battier, Alston, Mutombo, Head, Hayes and Juwan Howard

2007-08: Tmac, Scola, Battier, Alston, Landry, Brooks, Mutombo, Hayes and Bobby Jackson

You'd better believe that if Dwight Howard had those rosters, he'd make it out of the 1st round at least once in those six seasons. In the short six seasons Dwight has played, he's already led his team to the 1st round in his 3rd season, 2nd round in his 4th season, Finals in his 5th season and poised to complete the greatest comeback ever to make it there again in his 6th season... Get off bro, Yao just isn't leadership material.
If you consider those talented NBA teams, I think we are done here. No reason to discuss this with a guy who clearly doesn't watch basketball

ldc62
05-28-2010, 03:56 PM
Let me know when Yao plays more than half a season.

Let me know when the Magic win a championship.

RadiantShot
05-28-2010, 03:57 PM
Let me know when the Magic win a championship.

Soon.

ldc62
05-28-2010, 03:58 PM
:laugh:
Yao is a marsh-mellow.

A Marsh-mellow has more post moves than Dwight? I guess we all know how good Dwight is then.

ldc62
05-28-2010, 03:59 PM
Soon.

ok just tell me when the parades happening, I will try to check it out.

RadiantShot
05-28-2010, 04:01 PM
A Marsh-mellow has more post moves than Dwight? I guess we all know how good Dwight is then.

A marsh-mellow that hasn't gone anywhere with his team, can't guard, and is 7'6, but a soft-rebounder. Let him have the post moves if it'll further prove he's somewhat decent for his size. ;)

RadiantShot
05-28-2010, 04:01 PM
ok just tell me when the parades happening, I will try to check it out.

Okay.

Gibby23
05-28-2010, 04:02 PM
A Marsh-mellow has more post moves than Dwight? I guess we all know how good Dwight is then.

Too bad Yao isn't on the court much to show the many post moves.

Raph12
05-28-2010, 04:23 PM
W/e you guys can continue talking about Yao and his greatness, but at this point, he's doing exactly what he was doing last year and will continue to do for the rest of his career (unless they can land a Lebron, Wade, Melo, Durant-type guy), watching Dwight lead his team in the ECFs. Yao's soft and will never be the player Dwight is, I don't care about his postmoves, Dwight scores and does it efficiently, he's avging 21ppg on 55% shooting against the best defense in the league (had two 30pts games in the series, no center has even scored 30 against the Celts since KG and Allen came to town), the rest is irrelevant.

In terms of which player will make a team better, Dwight > Yao, period.

ldc62
05-28-2010, 04:27 PM
A marsh-mellow that hasn't gone anywhere with his team, can't guard, and is 7'6, but a soft-rebounder. Let him have the post moves if it'll further prove he's somewhat decent for his size. ;)

K this thread is getting off topic (Im not helping, but..): Yao can't guard??? I think he shuts down Dwight pretty well every time they play. Be a hater, but just worry about Dwight and the Magic, last I checked you guys are still down.

ldc62
05-28-2010, 04:28 PM
W/e you guys can continue talking about Yao and his greatness, but at this point, he's doing exactly what he was doing last year and will continue to do for the rest of his career (unless they can land a Lebron, Wade, Melo, Durant-type guy), watching Dwight lead his team in the ECFs. Yao's soft and will never be the player Dwight is, I don't care about his postmoves, Dwight scores and does it efficiently, he's avging 21ppg on 55% shooting against the best defense in the league (had two 30pts games in the series, no center has even scored 30 against the Celts since KG and Allen came to town), the rest is irrelevant.

In terms of which player will make a team better, Dwight > Yao, period.

You are allowed to state your opinions.

rhino17
05-28-2010, 04:29 PM
:laugh:
Yao is a marsh-mellow.

He rapes Dwight every time they play, what does that make Dwight?

Gibby23
05-28-2010, 04:30 PM
He rapes Dwight every time they play, what does that make Dwight?

But, Dwight plays everytime, Yao doesn't.

pf289
05-28-2010, 04:32 PM
Probably the only time I will agree with Skip Bayless. Dwight seems to lack maturity and work ethic when it comes to improving his post up play. He has by far the best body in the NBA. We all know he is probably the best defender in the paint in the league, but his offensive post up skills are just not acceptable. He seems too immature to really lead a team to a championship. During games he seems to get too caught up in what the refs are calling rather than just playing the game. And off the court he has literally made zero improvement in his offensive game since he has been in the league. Lebron gets a lot of **** for not closing games yatta yatta, but at least he has improved in other areas of his game throughout his career. Dwight sure as hell takes on the "Superman" title, but sure as hell doesnt play like it.

ldc62
05-28-2010, 04:42 PM
K everyone stay back on topic... this isn't a Yao vs Dwight thread, even tho I think I started the argument...

Raph12
05-28-2010, 04:44 PM
You are allowed to state your opinions.

Of course you are, I just stated mine and the rest of the league's. As any GM if they'd take Dwight over Yao and they'd say yes in a heartbeat (not taking into consideration Yao's chinese following of course).


He rapes Dwight every time they play, what does that make Dwight?

That makes Dwight the guy battling in the ECFs to make the greatest comeback ever to lead his team back to the NBA Finals. What's Yao doing right now? And what has he been doing every late May-June since he got into the league?... That's right he's at home watching the Conference Finals/NBA Finals, that's all he can do.

CLASSOF72
05-28-2010, 04:47 PM
Dwight just hasn't got there yet he has the size and the anger to be a "super man", but he lacks the dominance which should come with experiance. I wouldn't count him out yet, but I wouldn't put my money on him at this point either. Someone already said it he needs another supe to make it happen. Even Shaq as much as he likes to take crdit for as much as he can needed a creddible double demanding threat to compliment him before he got a scratch in the chip box. I still think Dwight has some growing up to do if he plans on being a champ.

rhino17
05-28-2010, 04:53 PM
That makes Dwight the guy battling in the ECFs to make the greatest comeback ever to lead his team back to the NBA Finals. What's Yao doing right now? And what has he been doing every late May-June since he got into the league?... That's right he's at home watching the Conference Finals/NBA Finals, that's all he can do.

If Yao was on the most talented and deepest team in the NBA like Dwight is, he would be in the finals already, instead he has spent the entirety of his career with scrubs

lol at Dwight still having no offensive game at all

Gibby23
05-28-2010, 04:58 PM
If Yao was on the most talented and deepest team in the NBA like Dwight is, he would be in the finals already, instead he has spent the entirety of his career with scrubs
lol at Dwight still having no offensive game at all

No he wouldn't, he would be hurt. lol.

ldc62
05-28-2010, 05:28 PM
Of course you are, I just stated mine and the rest of the league's. As any GM if they'd take Dwight over Yao and they'd say yes in a heartbeat (not taking into consideration Yao's chinese following of course).


You got it all wrong... I would choose Dwight over Yao too. But Yao is a better player...

dc5jdm
05-28-2010, 05:44 PM
I like how some Magic fans are saying he doesnt have a good enough supporting cast, When most of you are saying you have the most stacked team in the NBA.

If i was a contending team in the east i'll just add a defensive minded center, thats all you need to beat orlando.

dc5jdm
05-28-2010, 05:47 PM
Btw Yao on the Magic would be going for back to back titles.

RadiantShot
05-28-2010, 05:54 PM
Btw Yao on the Magic would be going for back to back titles.

This has stupid written all over it.

Bricklayer
05-28-2010, 06:04 PM
I am by no means an Orlandon fan, but if I had to build my team around one player (age being a factor) I would take Howard with Lebron a close second.

Anon
05-28-2010, 06:13 PM
Who is Yao? Is this guy in the league? How in the world is this guy in the conversation?

BKNets
05-28-2010, 06:13 PM
Since when is maturity related to the way your perform in a certain sport or vice versa?

Maturity consists a lot more things than just producing on the basketball court. Of course some kind of discipline and maturity is involved in the process but it doesn't determine if he's a mature individual. One could be mature for one thing and immature for others, it's not as simple as you make it ought to be.

Now I find it pathetic how generic and poorly constructed your point is. Also surprised by your perception and definition of what maturity is.

I know this is a delayed response (some 10 days, or so,) but what the hell, man. You rip this guy for a poorly constructed point, but you're so freaking vague in what you say that I could say the same for you. Is Dwight Howard mature or not, and why the hell are you (or any of these other keyboard warriors, for that matter) the leading authority in regards to determining it? I would say Dwight Howard must be disciplined, as he has made it to the highest echelon of his sport (the Finals,) which I consider to be a sign of maturity, but according to you, being disciplined doesn't necessarily equate to maturity. So what does? My point is, you said nothing and took up too much space doing it. Finally, and this is a general statement directed at everyone/anyone; how does the fact that Dwight Howard has fun while playing equate to a lack of maturity, and furthermore, as most of you are probably 18 years of age (max,) how the **** are any of you speaking on maturity to begin with?! I haven't read anything other the initial post that gave even an example of this supposed lack of maturity, and yet the thread goes on, and on, and on. He's a happy person. :speechless: He must be immature! :facepalm:

JJ_JKidd
05-28-2010, 09:53 PM
He doesnt have that ferociousness that KG has. He's so mentally soft. Well that's what you get when you have a panic-coach like SVG.

CowboysKB24
05-28-2010, 11:52 PM
His maturity isn't there yet, but it is getting better. Once the wave of Shaq, Duncan, KG, Pierce, Kobe, Kidd, Nash, and the guys at 32 and plus are over I think his time will come at true leader in this league. The Magic don't do a good enough job of getting him more touches, he needs to work on his foul shooting. If he can shoot 80 percent from the line he will be a much much better player.

RadiantShot
05-28-2010, 11:56 PM
I think after this game, you can't say he's 'mentally soft.'
He actually lost his composure, and tried to raise the crowd after a dunk.
Well, even if he does that, he's considered 'dirty.'
He can't win any-way.

Raph12
05-29-2010, 12:22 AM
Dwights stats in the 3 elimination games;

Game 4: 32pts-16rbs-4blks on 13-19 shooting
Game 5: 21pts-10rbs-5blks-2stls on 7-12 shooting
Game 6: 28pts-12rbs-1blk-2stls on 11-17 shooting

He played with heart, he was determined and he played hard and physical, knocking guys around so much they started to wonder if he was the dirtiest player in the game, you guys think he still lacks that killer instinct?

Tony_Starks
05-29-2010, 12:23 AM
I actually gained a newfound respect for Dwight this series. He refused to get pushed around by Perk and Sheed. He didn't back down from KG. And as the games went on he actually played better.

Watching him playing tonight he's one of the only guys that didn't quit. He just needs players who can feed the post and get it to him on the move and he can dominate the East for years...

ilovemyangel
05-29-2010, 12:24 AM
he loses his focus as often as he misses his free throws. just look at today's game, reacting to the crowd for being booed while his team's in a deep hole

*Superman*
05-29-2010, 12:24 AM
No.

Kakaroach
05-29-2010, 12:25 AM
After watching Dwight perform these last 3 games, I have to say he is most definitely mature enough to lead a championship contending team. He wouldn't back down, he wouldn't let anyone get in his face, he was more aggressive, and he worked hard all night for the past 3 games of this series.

ilovemyangel
05-29-2010, 12:25 AM
Dwights stats in the 3 elimination games;

Game 4: 32pts-16rbs-4blks on 13-19 shooting
Game 5: 21pts-10rbs-5blks-2stls on 7-12 shooting
Game 6: 28pts-12rbs-1blk-2stls on 11-17 shooting

He played with heart, he was determined and he played hard and physical, knocking guys around so much they started to wonder if he was the dirtiest player in the game, you guys think he still lacks that killer instinct?

he was also responsible for 2 of the Magic's losses where he didnt show up.

RadiantShot
05-29-2010, 12:25 AM
Dwights stats in the 3 elimination games;

Game 4: 32pts-16rbs-4blks on 13-19 shooting
Game 5: 21pts-10rbs-5blks-2stls on 7-12 shooting
Game 6: 28pts-12rbs-1blk-2stls on 11-17 shooting

He played with heart, he was determined and he played hard and physical, knocking guys around so much they started to wonder if he was the dirtiest player in the game, you guys think he still lacks that killer instinct?

Raph, it'll never change. You know it won't. We don't have to preach our case any longer. It'll just end up like this.

---


he loses his focus as often as he misses his free throws. just look at today's game, reacting to the crowd for being booed while his team's in a deep hole

*Superman*
05-29-2010, 12:26 AM
he loses his focus as often as he misses his free throws. just look at today's game, reacting to the crowd for being booed while his team's in a deep hole

Are you kidding me?! Did you not see how pumped the boos got him. I wish the ***** fans did that in the 1st quarter so he would have dropped 40. When they first started doing it, he got an offensive rebound, and a dunk off a pass. He was way more aggressive.

ilovemyangel
05-29-2010, 12:33 AM
lol ok

Raph12
05-29-2010, 01:01 AM
he loses his focus as often as he misses his free throws. just look at today's game, reacting to the crowd for being booed while his team's in a deep hole

he was also responsible for 2 of the Magic's losses where he didnt show up.

Yeah Dwight had two bad games in the series, but KG had 5 bad ones and 1 decent game, guess he's not mature enough to lead a team either. :facepalm:

Dude you're a douche and need to calm down, you guys won and were the better team, no one's arguing that, now get over yourself.


After watching Dwight perform these last 3 games, I have to say he is most definitely mature enough to lead a championship contending team. He wouldn't back down, he wouldn't let anyone get in his face, he was more aggressive, and he worked hard all night for the past 3 games of this series.

I actually gained a newfound respect for Dwight this series. He refused to get pushed around by Perk and Sheed. He didn't back down from KG. And as the games went on he actually played better.

Watching him playing tonight he's one of the only guys that didn't quit. He just needs players who can feed the post and get it to him on the move and he can dominate the East for years...

He really impressed me this series and the best part is, he's only 24 years old, he'll only continue to get better, barring injuries... Definitely the lone bright spot for the Magic at this point IMO.

Raph12
05-29-2010, 01:46 AM
These are Dwight's final stats against Boston; ~22ppg-11rpg-1apg-3bpg-1spg on 57FG%

tredigs
05-29-2010, 02:13 AM
These are Dwight's final stats against Boston; ~22ppg-11rpg-1apg-3bpg-1spg on 57FG%

Not dominant by any means for someone who's supposed to be the best big in the game - a player like Malone would generally put up 29/12/3 in the playoffs for example, but that Celtic team was just great defensively. Tough for anyone to put up great numbers on them. Plus, he was very good defensively as usual.

Nowhere near the performance that the great bigs put up when it counts, but he's putting his name out there.

Sadds The Gr8
05-29-2010, 02:26 AM
Not dominant by any means for someone who's supposed to be the best big in the game - a player like Malone would generally put up 29/12/3 in the playoffs for example, but that Celtic team was just great defensively. Tough for anyone to put up great numbers on them. Plus, he was very good defensively as usual.

Nowhere near the performance that the great bigs put up when it counts, but he's putting his name out there.

agreed

ilovemyangel
05-29-2010, 02:29 AM
I said that he loses his focus on the big picture easily and you retorted with some stats from the games where he played well, so I brought up the games where he didnt play well and I'm a douche? C'mon man.

ilovemyangel
05-29-2010, 02:31 AM
and by no means am i saying dwight is not a good player because he is close to being dominant if he develops consistent post moves and mid range shot, just saying he lacks the focus now from my very humble observation to truly lead by example.

Raph12
05-29-2010, 03:18 AM
Not dominant by any means for someone who's supposed to be the best big in the game - a player like Malone would generally put up 29/12/3 in the playoffs for example, but that Celtic team was just great defensively. Tough for anyone to put up great numbers on them. Plus, he was very good defensively as usual.

Nowhere near the performance that the great bigs put up when it counts, but he's putting his name out there.

The Celts are very physical and also the best defensive team in the league (Orlando just has better defensive numbers because of Dwight). The stat that sticks out most to me is 57FG%, that's really impressive for a #1 option in any era.

Btw these are Dwight's stats in the three elimination games: ~27ppg-13rpg-1spg-3bpg on 65FG%... Now that's a bit more impressive, don't you think?

tredigs
05-29-2010, 03:36 AM
The Celts are very physical and also the best defensive team in the league (Orlando just has better defensive numbers because of Dwight). The stat that sticks out most to me is 57FG%, that's really impressive for a #1 option in any era.

Btw these are Dwight's stats in the three elimination games: ~27ppg-13rpg-1spg-3bpg on 65FG%... Now that's a bit more impressive, don't you think?

Agreed, and he was much better when they were pushed to the brink. But you can't wait until your team is down 3-0 to show up. He's young, mentally. He shows this in a multitude of ways and it does hurt him, but I think he'll get there soon. He's not stupid, like some stars who struggle with immature decisions, so I do expect him to learn from these playoff appearances.

I think what's going to happen is that he'll start to become less dominant physically relative to the competition, but his decision making will improve to the point that he'll be a better player overall. Whether or not he can improve his post moves, and stay healthy, is what will ultimately decide whether or not he'll be able to lead his teams to rings.

Raph12
05-29-2010, 04:03 AM
Agreed, and he was much better when they were pushed to the brink. But you can't wait until your team is down 3-0 to show up. He's young, mentally. He shows this in a multitude of ways and it does hurt him, but I think he'll get there soon. He's not stupid, like some stars who struggle with immature decisions, so I do expect him to learn from these playoff appearances.

I think what's going to happen is that he'll start to become less dominant physically relative to the competition, but his decision making will improve to the point that he'll be a better player overall. Whether or not he can improve his post moves, and stay healthy, is what will ultimately decide whether or not he'll be able to lead his teams to rings.

I can agree with everything here, he's young and didn't come out with the right mentality early in the series. After a chat with the Dream, he seemed like a new man, but too little too late, although these experiences will make him stronger. If Dwight puts the work in this summer and improves his game, he will be one of the truly elite players in the league a la Kobe and Lebron. These are the stats I'm expecting for next season: 22-24ppg 13-15rpg 2-3apg 1-2spg 2-4bpg

He's capable of greatness, but it will be on him to achieve it.

heathonater
05-29-2010, 04:05 AM
dwight can lead his team to a title. the way he plays on the court speaks for itself.. his defense and rebounding are enough to lead a team to the title. i see nothin wrong with him expressing his personality and having fun out there. that's the part that makes him unique. he has the killer instinct to take over a game. what more could you ask of him.

USMCLaker
05-30-2010, 02:43 PM
He doesn't lack maturity just the killer instinct.

basketfan4life
05-30-2010, 03:26 PM
is anyone wondering is lbj lacking the maturity?he lead his team to finals in a non-existing Leastern conference then couldn't win a single game, Dwight lead his team to finals trough a tough eastern conference,won a game in the finals, lost 2 games in OT, he got his team to ecf again, lead a beautiful comeback try and played extremely well in last 3 games when his back was against the wall...

seriously, where is all this dwight hate coming from?

RadiantShot
05-30-2010, 03:32 PM
.....Thank you..... ^

hugepatsfan
05-30-2010, 04:13 PM
He doesn't lack maturity just the killer instinct.

I think this is the real answer. But I will say that he kind of showed that "it" in the last 3 games. Definately something to build on...

AddiX
05-30-2010, 06:09 PM
The guy has no moves what so ever. he needs to spend his entire off-season working with vets because watching him try to always force his way to the hoop is a joke.

And the idea that Carter was going to put the team over the top is a joke. No one on any team has played well with Carter, the guy has not played well with any team mates his entire career. With his ability he should of been averaging 35 pts a game with Jason Kidd feeding him.

RadiantShot
05-30-2010, 06:22 PM
^
What a great comment!
Absolutely unproductive.

USMCLaker
06-01-2010, 12:01 AM
I think this is the real answer. But I will say that he kind of showed that "it" in the last 3 games. Definately something to build on...
Yea, I agree with that too.

fadedmario
06-01-2010, 12:03 AM
Dwight Howard is just fine. VC is the problem in Orlando

Super.
06-08-2010, 02:53 PM
Keep your panties dry bud, I'm touring Europe, don't have as much time to do this stuff. I'll admit when I'm wrong, the Magic aren't legit contenders and their go-to guy (VC) is as soft as a marshmellow.

Dwight is better than Russell and any other center not named Chamberlain in the 60s... He doesn't touch most of the all-time greats, but Russell was overrated, so was basketball in the 50s-60s.

LMAO

Lets see Dwight Grab 30+ rebounds regularly and win 10 straight before we make any silly asumptions

ballpd05
06-08-2010, 03:19 PM
The guy has no moves what so ever. he needs to spend his entire off-season working with vets because watching him try to always force his way to the hoop is a joke.

And the idea that Carter was going to put the team over the top is a joke. No one on any team has played well with Carter, the guy has not played well with any team mates his entire career. With his ability he should of been averaging 35 pts a game with Jason Kidd feeding him.

I agree with all of this. His only consistent offensive move is lowering his shoulder going straight into a guys chest and dunking after running over or big bodying the guy. He needs at least a little finesse so that he can be more consistent against guys just as strong as him.

And VC has been terrible. I thought he was elite in Toronto, but he has fallen off tremendously since then.

tangent12
06-08-2010, 03:29 PM
Well the results speak for themselves and answer this question for the second year in a row.

mshan5
06-08-2010, 03:37 PM
Dwight Howard lacks the skill to lead a team to a championship.