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View Full Version : Interesting Blog: "The Problem With Dwight Howard and LeBron James"



cheerio
05-19-2010, 04:02 PM
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/05/19/the-problem-with-dwight-howard-and-lebron-james/


So Dwight Howard got to that all-important number of 30 points, which places him beyond criticism for his lack of offensive moves. The Magic lost, but naturally, it was Vince Carter's fault. So much for Howard needing to prove something about how good he is in this series.

Not only did the Big Guy escape unscathed (except for the loss), he also found an important defender in Jeff Van Gundy. JVG said, in essence, that we might just have to accept Howard for what he is: a superstar on defense who will always be limited at the other end. Otis Smith believes Dwight is on Bill Russell's level as a defensive force. Van Gundy, far more rationally, used Russell as an extremely favorable example of how a player can stink at offense but still prove incredibly valuable.

Mark Jackson wasn't having it. He pointed to Rajon Rondo's improved outside shooting, and asked why Howard couldn't add a little something to his game over the summer like Rondo did. It's a valid question, especially given how much has been made of the coaching Howard has received from Patrick Ewing. If Kobe Bryant and Josh Smith have studied with Hakeem Olajuwon and become better post players for it, why can't Howard progress?

The answer's pretty simple. Shooting can be fixed, since it's usually a matter of form and mechanics -- not understanding when and where a jumper is in order. Remember when LeBron James couldn't shoot? What about Derrick Rose? The same is also true about finishing, unless the player is Lamar Odom. If the player gets to the basket with ease, he'll eventually figure out how to reliably deposit ball in basket.



Share Howard, on the other hand, simply has zero instinct for scoring. You know that phrase "nose for the ball"? He has no nose for the basket; he's only effective on straight-forward dunks or clear-path lobs. The NBA does Howard, and itself, a great disservice every time it shows clips of Orlando Magic-era Shaquille O'Neal during these games. Shaq wasn't just a physical marvel, he knew exactly how to use his body, when and where to take off from around the rim.

There also wasn't a sharp disjuncture in his game between dunks and everything else. O'Neal's baby hooks looked natural; Howard might as well be trying to hoist a three. Some players block shots like they're dunking; Howard dunks like he's blocking shots. It's great if he goes for 30, but Superman isn't all he's cracked to be. And that's okay. We just need to be honest about it and move on. Oh, and advantage, Van Gundy.

This leaves us with a terrifying question. Howard can't or won't expand his game. LeBron can do anything but, supposedly, has some mental problem that Michael Jordan didn't have, thus limiting his possibilities as a player. What I want to know is, who is the crappier player? Can either one of them help it? How many more times can we bear to watch James behave like he did in Game 5 and 6 before we decide he's the next Vince Carter? Shouldn't we downgrade Howard if he's stuck where he is?

It would be totally hilarious if the two top MVP candidates came out of this postseason with a lot of explaining to do, and real questions about their abilities out in the ether. One is sick in the body, the other in the soul. You tell me what's worse. Or maybe, dear reader, the problem is with us.
Just thought this might get some people talking a little.

69centers
05-19-2010, 04:11 PM
Never heard of Lebron having mental issues. It's true about Dwight and his limited offense. You'd think he would improve each year, but he doesn't. All dunks and straight lobs and that's it.

ballpd05
05-19-2010, 04:16 PM
Lebron James thing in game 5 and 6 seems to be isolated. If we look to the other games when he has been ousted in the playoffs he was like a man possessed who was just outmatched by the other team. If he would have the same intensity he played with against Detroit in '07 or Orlando last year I have no problem anointing him.

D12 I agree is just limited offensively. He doesn't have any counter moves or great footwork and his game isn't fluid at all on the offensive end. His best offense is bully someone under the basket catch and dunk in his face. He has no fakes and doesn't really react or trick anyone with his moves. His bullying is effective, but it gets a little difficult when you don't just physically outmatch the other guy.

tredigs
05-19-2010, 04:18 PM
There was a few good points (which were not his, and were old points, and were made by commentators rather than himself) interspersed with really weak writing on his part.

"Just who's the crappier player?" What a horrible way to put it. He also mentions them as the top two MVP candidates, which to be fair was not true. It was the 1st and 4th.

The point on Lebron is also completely off. "How many times can we see him not show up like this?" Really? I won't make excuses for his weaker play in the final two games, because it was odd and unlike him, but I would definitely say that those last two games were the exceptions to the rule. The bottom line is that there may have been something wrong with him, or it may have just been the amazing Celtic team defense that finally figured him out and were able to control him due to the fact that they had nobody else on his team who could take over the game for long stretches.

As for Howard, yeah, I've said it a million times that he's just mechanical on offense and will probably not be able to become much better than he already is. I actually think that he's more productive now than he would have been in almost any other generation, for the fact that there are so many weak/ non-true centers in the league and he's able to overpower them to get his 15-20 a game. It doesn't change the fact that he's a very good, albeit limited player.

Anyway, terrible read.

Gibby23
05-19-2010, 04:20 PM
There was a few good points (which were not his, and were old points, and were made by commentators rather than himself) interspersed with really weak writing on his part.

"Just who's the crappier player?" What a horrible way to put it. He also mentions them as the top two MVP candidates, which to be fair was not true. It was the 1st and 4th.

The point on Lebron is also completely off. "How many times can we see him not show up like this?" Really? I won't make excuses for his tentative play in the final two games, because it was odd and unlike him, but I would definitely say that those last two games were the exceptions to the rule. The bottom line is that there may have been something wrong with him, or it may have just been the amazing Celtic team defense that finally figured him out and were able to control him due to the fact that they had nobody else on his team who could take over the game for long stretches.

As for Howard, yes, I've said it a million times that he's just mechanical on offense and will probably not be able to become much better than he already is. I actually think that he's more productive now than he would have been in almost any other generation, for the fact that there is so many centers in the league and he's able to overpower them to get his 15-20 a game.

Anyway, terrible read.

He didn't say top two, he said two top.

mvb815
05-19-2010, 04:33 PM
i don't understand why everyone calls howard's offensive game bad, 18 points per game in the nba is very hard to do and is a good offensive asset to any team.

just because he isn't like shaq was in his prime. shaq is a totally different player. howard is howard, who is also still young and has time to improve. shaq was shaq and with the game changing and more rookies coming in so much more athletic then they used to be there might not be another guy who puts up shaqs numbers for a looong time.

thekmp211
05-19-2010, 04:35 PM
I really don't think LeBron has an issue with his mentality. His team stunk. He had no supporting cast against arguably the most balanced team in the league. He had a friggin triple-double in Game 6 with 19 rebounds. I think he was trying. If anything, he realized that his superhuman efforts could only take an average basketball team so far.

Dwight needs to get serious. Stop making movies with Common and commercials with Chuck. Stop smiling when you're up ONE POINT in a pivotal game. I'm not a kobe fanatic but did you see his face in game one? He was not ****ing around. These young talents need to get there.

tredigs
05-19-2010, 04:35 PM
He didn't say top two, he said two top.

Actually, he said "the two top" - which is the same as saying the top two. But this is kind of immaterial.

As tired as the "Lebron didn't have a good enough cast" comment is, it applied here once again, sadly. I want to see the guy play with a true go-to elite all star cast member (like virtually every other championship team in history has), and a team of solid role players. Not the oldest player in the league at center and a few other other ex-all stars who were courtesy picks even in the years they did make it, but truly solid players. That team was built to win in the regular season, but they were completely overmatched by the Celtics (who played possum all year and completely took me by surprise).

As for the Magic, as good as Jameer Nelson is, the Magic lack a true point guard (he's more of a shoot first combo guard). They need a player to open up the court and create easier looks for their shooters, because they don't seem to be able to do so by themselves. Again, like the Cavs it was good enough to be a great team in the regular season, but when they're being matched up against a great defensive team who has multiple games to game plan against them, the weaknesses on their O are being completely exploited. Dwight isn't a go to guy, just isn't.

ElMarroAfamado
05-19-2010, 04:35 PM
haha people always ignore that lebron james tries mercilessly to get to the paint because he cant shoot....and sometimes it kills possessions for his team because he wont shoot...
the only shots he takes are pull up 3s.....
as long as he doesnt have a mid range game he isnt doing much in this league

thekmp211
05-19-2010, 04:36 PM
i don't understand why everyone calls howard's offensive game bad, 18 points per game in the nba is very hard to do and is a good offensive asset to any team.

just because he isn't like shaq was in his prime. shaq is a totally different player. howard is howard, who is also still young and has time to improve. shaq was shaq and with the game changing and more rookies coming in so much more athletic then they used to be there might not be another guy who puts up shaqs numbers for a looong time.


He should have improved more than he has. Look at the jumps the other top players have taken. LeBron, Wade, Durant, Melo...they all had those breakout offensive years. He's on a HoF pace if he never learns another move but it's definitely frustrating to watch.

SteveNash
05-19-2010, 04:39 PM
i don't understand why everyone calls howard's offensive game bad, 18 points per game in the nba is very hard to do and is a good offensive asset to any team.

just because he isn't like shaq was in his prime. shaq is a totally different player. howard is howard, who is also still young and has time to improve. shaq was shaq and with the game changing and more rookies coming in so much more athletic then they used to be there might not be another guy who puts up shaqs numbers for a looong time.

I think people are critiquing how Howard scores. What he does when he's forced 10 feet out instead of catching the ball right at the basket for an easy dunk.

mvb815
05-19-2010, 04:39 PM
As for the Magic, as good as Jameer Nelson is, the Magic lack a true point guard (he's more of a shoot first combo guard). They need a player to open up the court and create easier looks for their shooters, because they don't seem to be able to do so by themselves. Again, like the Cavs it was good enough to be a great team in the regular season, but when they're being matched up against a great defensive team who has multiple games to game plan against them, the weaknesses on their O are being completely exploited. Dwight isn't a go to guy, just isn't.


are you kidding, jameer nelson is gold on this team, they don't need a point guard to find the spot up shooters open looks because they have a double team demanding center. don't worry, the magic hoist up enough open threes during a game.

Gibby23
05-19-2010, 04:39 PM
Actually, he said "the two top" - which is the same as saying the top two. But this is kind of immaterial.

As tired as the "Lebron didn't have a good enough cast" comment is, it applied here once again, sadly. I want to see the guy play with a true go-to elite all star cast member (like virtually every other championship team in history has), and a team of solid role players. Not the oldest player in the league at center and a few other other ex-all stars who were courtesy picks even in the years they did make it, but truly solid players. That team was built to win in the regular season, but they were completely overmatched by the Celtics (who played possum all year and completely took me by surprise).

As for the Magic, as good as Jameer Nelson is, the Magic lack a true point guard (he's more of a shoot first combo guard). They need a player to open up the court and create easier looks for their shooters, because they don't seem to be able to do so by themselves. Again, like the Cavs it was good enough to be a great team in the regular season, but when they're being matched up against a great defensive team who has multiple games to game plan against them, the weaknesses on their O are being completely exploited. Dwight isn't a go to guy, just isn't.


That is true. That is why I didn't get when almost everyone on PSD was saying the Jamison move was great. The could have had Amare, but didn't want to trade Hickson, so they Keep Hickson and get Jamison. Then they chose not to play Hickson in the playoffs, and he could have done as good or better than Jamison. They should have got Amare and we could have seen what Lebron could have done with another Legit all star.

I hope the Cavs are going to be happy next year trying to build around Hickson.

thekmp211
05-19-2010, 04:43 PM
are you kidding, jameer nelson is gold on this team, they don't need a point guard to find the spot up shooters open looks because they have a double team demanding center. don't worry, the magic hoist up enough open threes during a game.

I think a pure point would really help this team.

Have you watched the series so far? When a team has the ability to ease of doubling Dwight the shooters have a much harder time getting open.

Personally, I'd like to see pick and rolls with Vince and Dwight or Jameer and Dwight. Perk is too slow to roll with Howard. They must not run it well. I think screens could also help Lewis get going because KG is just eating him alive right now.

Either way, when you're the prohibitive favorite and you're down 2-0 I don't know if any player is "gold".

Bruno
05-19-2010, 04:48 PM
There was a few good points (which were not his, and were old points, and were made by commentators rather than himself) interspersed with really weak writing on his part.

"Just who's the crappier player?" What a horrible way to put it. He also mentions them as the top two MVP candidates, which to be fair was not true. It was the 1st and 4th.

The point on Lebron is also completely off. "How many times can we see him not show up like this?" Really? I won't make excuses for his weaker play in the final two games, because it was odd and unlike him, but I would definitely say that those last two games were the exceptions to the rule. The bottom line is that there may have been something wrong with him, or it may have just been the amazing Celtic team defense that finally figured him out and were able to control him due to the fact that they had nobody else on his team who could take over the game for long stretches.

As for Howard, yeah, I've said it a million times that he's just mechanical on offense and will probably not be able to become much better than he already is. I actually think that he's more productive now than he would have been in almost any other generation, for the fact that there are so many weak/ non-true centers in the league and he's able to overpower them to get his 15-20 a game. It doesn't change the fact that he's a very good, albeit limited player.

Anyway, terrible read.

Ok. But when the exception to the rule happens two years in a row during the most critical time of the season, as the reigning MVP with homecourt advantage- doesn't it become more than just the exception to the rule? It might be the exception, but that exception has happened at the worst possible time, two years in a row.

Toadman
05-19-2010, 04:48 PM
Howard only strength is that he is a physical marvel. With his size, speed, & power he can dominate. But unless he starts adding some more to his arsenal he will very soon lose his edge as he ages. Shaq was able to last much longer because apart from his size he did have quite a few moves in his arsenal. His weakness was not taking care of his body during the off season.

tredigs
05-19-2010, 04:49 PM
are you kidding, jameer nelson is gold on this team, they don't need a point guard to find the spot up shooters open looks because they have a double team demanding center. don't worry, the magic hoist up enough open threes during a game.

It surprises me that you'd try to make this point where you are being proven wrong right in front of your face.

Against a solid team defense who -for the most part- are not double teaming Howard whatsoever, they become create-your-own stress shooters.

Vince tries to pull it off, but it just doesn't work most of the time. Rashard doesn't even bother, he just gave up and passes it off. Matt Barnes? Not happening. Jameer Nelson is probably the best on his team on creating his own shot and finishing, but Rondo's a good enough defender that they're not going to double him, which still leaves the other guys marked and on their own to create.

mvb815
05-19-2010, 04:50 PM
I think a pure point would really help this team.

Have you watched the series so far? When a team has the ability to ease of doubling Dwight the shooters have a much harder time getting open.

Personally, I'd like to see pick and rolls with Vince and Dwight or Jameer and Dwight. Perk is too slow to roll with Howard. They must not run it well. I think screens could also help Lewis get going because KG is just eating him alive right now.

Either way, when you're the prohibitive favorite and you're down 2-0 I don't know if any player is "gold".


you're right, but that is a problem you can't blame on jameer, if anyone you can blame stan for not adjusting to the celtics adjustment to their offense. dwight's limited offense is a cog in this team, at the end of the day it gets the job done. the celtics are moreso taking away the shooters so far this series, so you can expect dwight to put up big offensive games in the next few ones.

what the magic should do is give bass some more time right now.

tredigs
05-19-2010, 04:55 PM
Ok. But when the exception to the rule happens two years in a row during the most critical time of the season, as the reigning MVP with homecourt advantage- doesn't it become more than just the exception to the rule? It might be the exception, but that exception has happened at the worst possible time, two years in a row.

You mean the series where he averaged like 39 / 8 / 8 against the Magic after carrying them on his back to sweep the Pistons and Hawks? His team WAS NOT good, period. I can't even believe he was able to take squads like this as far as he did.

ldc62
05-19-2010, 04:56 PM
I don't buy this... anyone should be able to improve even marginally each season. Thats why people practice. A guy on the street could practice doing 500 hookshots and improve.

Gibby23
05-19-2010, 04:57 PM
You mean the series where he averaged like 39 / 8 / 8 against the Magic after carrying them on his back to sweep the Pistons and Hawks? His team WAS NOT good, period. I can't even believe he was able to take squads like this as far as he did.

But, if you look at the past NBA teams that won 60 plus games, they usually win the championship.

Chronz
05-19-2010, 05:06 PM
But, if you look at the past NBA teams that won 60 plus games, they usually win the championship.

You look at most teams with 60+ they have considerably more talent on their squad outside their best player.

Jenceman
05-19-2010, 05:11 PM
I still don't buy that the Cavs didn't have good enough players around Bron.....

They had a second guy who could put up 20 and 10 every night, they had a perfect third option in Mo Williams, and they had the deepest frontcourt in the league, and a good three guard rotation in Mo, Delonte, and Parker. That team just matched up badly with the Celtics and Magic.

mvb815
05-19-2010, 05:17 PM
the problem with the cavs was, they spent their entire offseason figuring out ways to counter dwight, and didn't even consider the celtics.

Bruno
05-19-2010, 05:19 PM
You mean the series where he averaged like 39 / 8 / 8 against the Magic after carrying them on his back to sweep the Pistons and Hawks? His team WAS NOT good, period. I can't even believe he was able to take squads like this as far as he did.

I get you. But if that same team is good enough to win those 65+ games, and to lock up that homecourt advantage during the regular season, I don't understand how what was good enough to get them 65+ games suddenly isn't good enough to even challenge the other competition to a series longer than five games.

You know what I mean? I'm not knocking LeBron, or the Cavs, I think they've gotten unlucky and have had horrible match up scenarios two years in a row. I just think there is something to be said for a team that wins 60+ games two years in a row, and can't challenge their opponent with at least a seven game series weeks after appearing to be the most dominant team in the league.

tredigs
05-19-2010, 05:26 PM
I get you. But if that same team is good enough to win those 65+ games, and to lock up that homecourt advantage during the regular season, I don't understand how what was good enough to get them 65+ games suddenly isn't good enough to even challenge the other competition to a series longer than five games.

You know what I mean? I'm not knocking LeBron, or the Cavs, I think they've gotten unlucky and have had horrible match up scenarios two years in a row. I just think there is something to be said for a team that wins 60+ games two years in a row, and can't challenge their opponent with at least a seven game series weeks after appearing to be the most dominant team in the league.

I absolutely get you, and it's a valid argument, but I still think it comes down to the few elite/better teams in the league with better coaching / better matchups who are able to exploit the Cavs weaknesses in a 7 game series. Lebron brings it EVERY night in the reg season, which most players simply do not - and that makes their team incredibly tough to beat on a day to day basis. But once game planning and matchups come into play, things get a lot tougher. I really thought that the addition of Jamison would help them more than it did (wasn't as sold on Shaq, ever), but he just doesn't bring it come post season. I have a feeling there's a reason why that was the first team Antawn's ever played on to get out of the 1st round.

Gibby23
05-19-2010, 05:27 PM
You look at most teams with 60+ they have considerably more talent on their squad outside their best player.

Im just saying. I never thought that Lebron had a great supporting cast, but during the season everyone fro PSD posters to ESPN were saying he has a great cast and the Jamison move was great, and how they got to keep Hickson.

Bruno
05-19-2010, 05:37 PM
I absolutely get you, and it's a valid argument, but I still think it comes down to the few elite/better teams in the league with better coaching / better matchups who are able to exploit the Cavs weaknesses in a 7 game series. Lebron brings it EVERY night in the reg season, which most players simply do not - and that makes their team incredibly tough to beat on a day to day basis. But once game planning and matchups come into play, things get a lot tougher. I really thought that the addition of Jamison would help them more than it did (wasn't as sold on Shaq, ever), but he just doesn't bring it come post season. I have a feeling there's a reason why that was the first team Antawn's ever played on to get out of the 1st round.

I can get behind that. I think The Cavs suffered in the same way the 2007-2008 Lakers did. They didn't get a full training camp, pre-season, or regular season with all of their pieces together as one from the beginning. Shaq missing time with injury, Big Z missing time with the team, and Jamison coming in half way. They just didn't get enough time to gel. They had no synergy, and I think they became less than the sum of their parts in the series against the C's.

Last year vs. Orlando he was a total beast. I think a lot of the crap he's getting now is because he really didn't look or play like the dominant LBJ in those final two games and nobody knows why. With all the FA speculation, or potential injury, or maybe just superior Celtics D, people are just wondering why LeBron didn't take that series over, after watching him take over everything and anybody else all season long.

Whatever actually happened, LBJ is the team captain and the back to back MVP. It's his job to make it work, and to make his teammates better.

smith&wesson
05-19-2010, 05:43 PM
I agree that dwight is nothing like shaq in his prime. its not even fair to compare him to shaq or bill russle. your talking about the two biggest bigmen of all time. what has dwight done to be compared to them ?? expecting much ? he wont ever be as good as shaq. alot of ppl forget just how good shaq really was. he was friggen dominating on both ends of the floor consistantly.

as for lebron ? he has a problem with his soul ? like seriously this writer couldnt come up with somthing better ?

thekmp211
05-19-2010, 05:53 PM
I can get behind that. I think The Cavs suffered in the same way the 2007-2008 Lakers did. They didn't get a full training camp, pre-season, or regular season with all of their pieces together as one from the beginning. Shaq missing time with injury, Big Z missing time with the team, and Jamison coming in half way. They just didn't get enough time to gel. They had no synergy, and I think they became less than the sum of their parts in the series against the C's.

Last year vs. Orlando he was a total beast. I think a lot of the crap he's getting now is because he really didn't look or play like the dominant LBJ in those final two games and nobody knows why. With all the FA speculation, or potential injury, or maybe just superior Celtics D, people are just wondering why LeBron didn't take that series over, after watching him take over everything and anybody else all season long.

Whatever actually happened, LBJ is the team captain and the back to back MVP. It's his job to make it work, and to make his teammates better.


If you're the best player you get the credit and the blame and that's fine. I think the Cavs were a perfectly built team to beat 90% of the league. They just aren't built to hang with the big boys.

Lakerfan In NY
05-19-2010, 05:56 PM
The problem W/ LBJ & Howard is that they skipped college & its hard to learn on the job ie Like KG, O'neal, Kobe or any other HS player who jumped to the pro's. Its hard to learn "GOOD" sound basketball knowledge in HS. So they both are living mostly off their god given ability. Thier fundemental are behind that of players that have been taught in college how to read a screen. A proper drop step. Sealing your man off. Moving w/o the ball to get yourself open. So they don't really get easy basket. So "IF" your good enough (as a team defense) & can get them out of their "comfort zone" Push DW out farther. Get LBJ to go West/East. You can disrupt their games (for the most part.) Just enough to steal a win.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-19-2010, 06:02 PM
I get you. But if that same team is good enough to win those 65+ games, and to lock up that homecourt advantage during the regular season, I don't understand how what was good enough to get them 65+ games suddenly isn't good enough to even challenge the other competition to a series longer than five games.

You know what I mean? I'm not knocking LeBron, or the Cavs, I think they've gotten unlucky and have had horrible match up scenarios two years in a row. I just think there is something to be said for a team that wins 60+ games two years in a row, and can't challenge their opponent with at least a seven game series weeks after appearing to be the most dominant team in the league.

I can answer this really easily for you. The playoffs is a different animal than the regular season. I mean the Celts didn't even bother with the regular season. They won 50 games and yet it looks like their going to the NBA Finals.

Can we all finally admit you CAN sleepwalk through the regular season and not give a **** about it and then just turn it on in the playoffs? There's been a number of teams who've done this (Celts this year, and Spurs in past years).

It's more beneficial to just look at the TALENT on a team than how many regular season games they won. The Celts are more talented than the Cavs. Lebron may be the best player on the court but the next 4 best players were all Celtics. And it's not like its close.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-19-2010, 06:04 PM
Im just saying. I never thought that Lebron had a great supporting cast, but during the season everyone fro PSD posters to ESPN were saying he has a great cast and the Jamison move was great, and how they got to keep Hickson.

That's because we all get fooled by the regular season, which simply does not mean as much as we'd like to believe.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-19-2010, 06:06 PM
Another thing is that in the regular season having a deep bench is much more important because there are 82 games and you have to save your starters energy too.

In the playoffs, it's all about the starters, who will usually play more in games because the games are more important.

Bruno
05-19-2010, 06:14 PM
I can answer this really easily for you. The playoffs is a different animal than the regular season. I mean the Celts didn't even bother with the regular season. They won 50 games and yet it looks like their going to the NBA Finals.

Can we all finally admit you CAN sleepwalk through the regular season and not give a **** about it and then just turn it on in the playoffs? There's been a number of teams who've done this (Celts this year, and Spurs in past years).

It's more beneficial to just look at the TALENT on a team than how many regular season games they won. The Celts are more talented than the Cavs. Lebron may be the best player on the court but the next 4 best players were all Celtics. And it's not like its close.

I'd say only veteran teams with championship experience can turn the switch on and off like that. C's and Spurs being perfect examples.

I agree, the playoffs are a totally different beast and the game changes in the playoffs. With that being said, should we judge the "best player" based of the 82 game regular season, or with what that player does in the post season? Can we even make such judgments in a team sport?

PHX2daDEATH
05-19-2010, 06:25 PM
I look at Dwight and I'm always comparing him to Amare.. it makes me mad that Amare has never developed a back to the basket type of game.. he's unstoppable at facing other players up but if he would learn to Post up like Hakeem it would make his offensive that more complete and he wouldn't have trouble scoring.. matter of fact he'd be unstoppable..

Dwight is the complete opposite.. he has no face up moves.. he lacks a reliable jumper even from 10-15 feet, but his back to the basket game is okay..it could be better

As for Lebron.. I look at it like this .. if It were Kobe or Jordan in game 6 against the Celtics.. they don't lose that game. LeBron is slowly classing himself with the Barkley's and the Ewings.. Not Jordan and Kobe and Shaq. Or Maybe on the other hand this is what LeBron needs to win.. We know Jordan went through some crushing defeats before he won a title.. Face it, the last two years have been more crushing to the Cavs then any other...even when they got to the finals

SteveNash
05-19-2010, 07:25 PM
The problem W/ LBJ & Howard is that they skipped college & its hard to learn on the job ie Like KG, O'neal, Kobe or any other HS player who jumped to the pro's. Its hard to learn "GOOD" sound basketball knowledge in HS. So they both are living mostly off their god given ability. Thier fundemental are behind that of players that have been taught in college how to read a screen. A proper drop step. Sealing your man off. Moving w/o the ball to get yourself open. So they don't really get easy basket. So "IF" your good enough (as a team defense) & can get them out of their "comfort zone" Push DW out farther. Get LBJ to go West/East. You can disrupt their games (for the most part.) Just enough to steal a win.

Most college coaches suck and just rely on their players ability instead of teaching them anything which is why the age eligibility rule is pretty stupid.

RaiderLakersA's
05-19-2010, 07:53 PM
With that being said, should we judge the "best player" based of the 82 game regular season, or with what that player does in the post season?

The post season award always matters more IMHO.

At the risk of starting a Jordan-LeBron debate (but CLEARLY not intending to), let's say that LeBron never wins a title, but upon retiring from the league owns almost every major statistical category and receives 5-6 regular season MVP's. Given that, would Jordan still be considered the GOAT? I think the answer is yes. Fair or not, LBJ has to win the big one before he can truly be in the discussion. After all, where some may see a great regular season, others may see futility.


As for the original post, I think the best players all start off playing on sheer athletic ability alone and then evolve into better players when those abilities begin to fade. But contrary to popular belief, it's not Time that sets that process in motion. No, Losing is usually the trigger.

ko8e24
05-19-2010, 08:00 PM
What was said about Dwight Howard was dead on. The criticism made toward LeBron in this blog is just plain stupid and nonsensical.

Iodine
05-19-2010, 08:03 PM
That was interesting in the sense that eating a tack is tasty

Lakersfan2483
05-19-2010, 08:05 PM
I agree with the Howard assessment but he was wrong in terms of his assessment of Lebron.

Raoul Duke
05-19-2010, 08:40 PM
There is no problem with either of them. It's hard to win an NBA championship. How long did it take Kevin Garnett?

I would kill to have Lebron or Dwight on my team. If you actually watch basketball, and you can't understand where I'm coming from, then... I dunno. You might be watching something else.


Mark Jackson wasn't having it. He pointed to Rajon Rondo's improved outside shooting, and asked why Howard couldn't add a little something to his game over the summer like Rondo did.

Wow. Why not ***** about Rondo not having 4 blocks a game? Is that any different?

Rubbish.

RadiantShot
05-19-2010, 10:53 PM
Dwight bashing has begun! :hide:

Get your jabs in guys. He's coming back stronger soon. I'll guarantee it, and I hate guaranteeing anything.

WashedOut87
05-20-2010, 12:24 PM
Jeff Van Gundy needs to chill. Thats why he can't coach anymore. Regardless, Dwight is the best Center in the NBA

Raph12
05-20-2010, 03:42 PM
I'll get back at this if Dwight is shutdown for the rest of this series, last I checked 13pts on 3-10 shooting and 30pts on 9-13 shooting (Dwight's stats in the first two games) is much better than 8pts on 4-14 shooting and 10pts on 5-16 shooting (KG's stats in the first two games).

Dwight has shut KG down like I said he would and he bounced back strong after a poor Game 1 (where he missed a lot of gimmes) like I said he would. If Dwight avgs 20+ppg on 50+FG%, he'll have vastly improved from the series he had last year (with only Perk and Davis guarding him [now they've added Sheed and KG]).

Dwight has made improvements, but rome wasn't built in a day, like I said, I'll get back at this at the end of the series.

Chronz
05-20-2010, 03:46 PM
Im just saying. I never thought that Lebron had a great supporting cast, but during the season everyone fro PSD posters to ESPN were saying he has a great cast and the Jamison move was great, and how they got to keep Hickson.
The Jamison move was great because it cost them nothing, but the point stands. Them keeping Hickson was huge because it allowed them to improve now, without sacrificing the future. Him staying on the team did nothing in the now, because he rarely played and his absence from the court only ticked his star player off (allegedly).

Kingz4L
05-20-2010, 04:13 PM
Why cant people just admit that Boston has a better team, They are realistically a team that should of won 2 rings by now if they were healthy...they saved energy and stayed healthy in the regular season because it cost them last year (KG's injury) It amazes me how people forget about the Celtics so easily.

Raph12
05-20-2010, 04:49 PM
Why cant people just admit that Boston has a better team, They are realistically a team that should of won 2 rings by now if they were healthy...they saved energy and stayed healthy in the regular season because it cost them last year (KG's injury) It amazes me how people forget about the Celtics so easily.

If Boston beats Orlando, they'll definitely remind the league of who they are when they roll over the Lakers again. Pau will go back to being Gasoft and Kobe will be arguing about his lack of calls again.

Like I said, whoever wins the East, will win it all.

Gibby23
05-20-2010, 05:00 PM
The Jamison move was great because it cost them nothing, but the point stands. Them keeping Hickson was huge because it allowed them to improve now, without sacrificing the future. Him staying on the team did nothing in the now, because he rarely played and his absence from the court only ticked his star player off (allegedly).

Yeah, but if Lebron leaves, they are stuck with the Jamison contract and are in rebuilding mode with only 7 million to spend. If they would have traded for amare instead and Lebron left after this year, Amare would have also opted out and they would be a rebuilding team with about 24 million to spend.

Would you rather be a rebuilding team with a 34 year old Jamison and Hickson with 7 million to spend, or a rebuilding team with 24 to 25 million to spend?

finalverse
05-20-2010, 05:09 PM
Well so far, Lebron is no Kobe and Howard is no Shaq. Maybe in the near future they can be but right now, they don't will their teams to win.

Gibby23
05-20-2010, 05:25 PM
Well so far, Lebron is no Kobe and Howard is no Shaq. Maybe in the near future they can be but right now, they don't will their teams to win.

You also have to take into account that Kobe and Shaq started winning together, that would be like having Lebron and Howard on the same team right now.

hugepatsfan
05-20-2010, 06:05 PM
If Boston beats Orlando, they'll definitely remind the league of who they are when they roll over the Lakers again. Pau will go back to being Gasoft and Kobe will be arguing about his lack of calls again.

Like I said, whoever wins the East, will win it all.

I wish I had your confidence. I think LAL would beat BOS in 6. But I thought CLE and ORL would too, so I hope I'm wrong. I guess I'm just a pessimistic person. lol

Raph12
05-20-2010, 08:29 PM
I wish I had your confidence. I think LAL would beat BOS in 6. But I thought CLE and ORL would too, so I hope I'm wrong. I guess I'm just a pessimistic person. lol

Honestly, Boston plays so physical with their bigs because each one can be replaced, Sheed replaces Perk and Davis replaces KG. They can play Dwight and Pau hard because they can afford to give up fouls, the Magic can't nor can the Lakers. The Celts aren't as deep from 1-12 as the Magic, but their much more talented from 1-8 (Rasheed Wallace, Glen Davis and Tony Allen). If Rondo is hitting those midrange jumpers like he did in Game 2, game over; if KG destroys Pau with his physicality like he did in 08, game over; if Pierce can be Pierce and Allen can be Allen, game over.They can beat you in so many different ways, it doesn't even matter how much more talented you are than they are, their physical defense will prevail.

I think we're a better matchup for the Celts if our guys could just step up and play the way they're accustomed to. If either Carter, Nelson and Shard actually play like they have all year long, we could win it. Shard has been non-existant and VC/Nelson have been inconsistent, Barnes needs to guard Pierce and Redick needs to stay on the floor longer. The biggest drop is when Shard guards KG, they need to put Dwight on him and keep it that way so they don't have to double. There are a lot of adjustments to be made, but idk if Stan is a good enough coach to make them.

carter15
05-20-2010, 08:35 PM
I think we're a better matchup for the Celts if our guys could just step up and play the way they're accustomed to. If either Carter, Nelson and Shard actually play like they have all year long, we could win it. Shard has been non-existant and VC/Nelson have been inconsistent, Barnes needs to guard Pierce and Redick needs to stay on the floor longer. The biggest drop is when Shard guards KG, they need to put Dwight on him and keep it that way so they don't have to double. There are a lot of adjustments to be made, but idk if Stan is a good enough coach to make them.

Ahem, did you see Dwight in game 1? If he showed up we would have won that, it's not just the other guys. And then in game 2 if VC showed up we could and probably would have won that. But you got to credit their D. If VC and Dwight can show up together, we should be ok.

Raph12
05-20-2010, 08:54 PM
Ahem, did you see Dwight in game 1? If he showed up we would have won that, it's not just the other guys. And then in game 2 if VC showed up we could and probably would have won that. But you got to credit their D. If VC and Dwight can show up together, we should be ok.

Dwight was rusty, frustrated and rattled in Game 1, a big reason why he missed so many layups/baby hooks, his showing up wouldn't erase the 20pts lead they had. The Celts got complacent in the 4th and we made a fool's gold run, I doubt we would've won if they kept up their intensity.

I think that Game 1 was just an off-game for Dwight, if he doesn't perform for the rest of the series call me out, but even if he scores 25+pts, Carter/Lewis/Nelson need to show up for us to win it. Rondo hit midrange jumpers and Carter missed consecutive FTs in the clutch, not gonna happen over and over again... This series isn't over yet, give it time, you'll see.

Bruno
05-20-2010, 09:18 PM
If Boston beats Orlando, they'll definitely remind the league of who they are when they roll over the Lakers again. Pau will go back to being Gasoft and Kobe will be arguing about his lack of calls again.

Like I said, whoever wins the East, will win it all.

Careful, this might end up in some ones sig.

kblo247
05-20-2010, 09:43 PM
I like this blog better as it points out why Kobe and KG are different from the guys who entered after them and why some of the newer generation don't get it


Take your pick. The NBA conference finals are lopsided duds for a multitude of reasons:

Vince Carter choked at the free-throw line; The Suns have no answer for the Lakers’ size advantage; Rashard Lewis disappeared into witness protection; Kobe Bryant is Kobe Bryant; The clown suit Rajon Rondo is stitching for Jameer Nelson; Steve Nash suddenly looks 40; Stan Van Gundy can’t coach.

I’m sure I missed a few of the reasons for Boston’s and Los Angeles’ commanding 2-0 leads. Whatever, we’re headed for a throwback NBA Finals series. Celtics-Lakers will be must-see TV.

But before we move on to the inevitable, let me explain the No. 1 reason why the Magic and the Suns can’t compete with the Lakers and the Celtics.

Dwight Howard and Amar'e Stoudemire were raised on the AAU circuit and sent straight to the NBA. They’ve yet to learn how to compete at the professional level.

We’re watching the “Child, Please!” conference finals.

Grown-*** men are spanking the (spit) out of little boys on national television. At some point, I expect Nancy Grace to call for criminal charges against David Stern for failing to intervene and properly protect Howard and Stoudemire.

This is child abuse. I’m uncomfortable watching it. I’m embarrassed for Howard and Stoudemire. Their underdeveloped basketball minds can’t comprehend a mature response for the grown-up play Bryant, Pau Gasol, Derek Fisher, Lamar Odom, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett and Rajon Rondo put forth at playoff time.

After getting routed in Game 1 in the West, Stoudemire childishly called the 19-point, 19-rebound ***-whipping delivered by Lamar Odom “lucky,” and then Stoudemire bragged about how he used to beat up Pau Gasol back in the Spaniard’s Memphis days.

After getting routed in Game 1 in the East, Howard childishly took the court for Game 2 by first performing his “comical” LeBron James, powder-throwing impersonation and then focusing all of his Superman-like powers on scoring more points than he did in Game 1.

These guys are clueless. They’re the most talented and important players on their teams and they have the maturity level of 13-year-olds. They set a terrible tone for their teams.

Howard just wants to have fun. Stoudemire just wants to score points. Neither is interested in giving a playoff-level defensive effort.

You don’t learn how to play great defense in summer/AAU basketball. You don’t learn how to compete at a championship level in AAU basketball.

Before summer basketball replaced high school hoops as the most important training ground for a teenage baller, kids used to be taught how to compete, how to accept coaching and that important games pitting equally talented players are most often decided at the defensive end.

Howard and Stoudemire are full-blooded AAU Babies. They were raised in the era where the penalty for a high school phenom ignoring the teachings of his coach was a spot in the draft lottery and a shoe contract with Nike or Adidas.

They didn’t join Michael Jordan’s NBA. They joined Allen Iverson’s league. There’s a major difference.

When Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett became superstars, they were welcomed into the All-Star Game and the fraternity of superstars by Michael Jordan, Karl Malone, David Robinson, etc. When Howard and Stoudemire blossomed into major stars, the culture of the NBA had dramatically changed. Most of their straight-out-of-high skool peers (LeBron James, Tracy McGrady, Jermaine O’Neal) talked about their respect for Jordan, but they mimicked Iverson’s style and attitude.

These guys have a difficult time with coaching. They have difficulty buying into a legitimate team concept.

It takes a team to play defense in the NBA. You can go one-on-one or pick-and-roll and score a boatload of points in the league. Defensive stops take five guys working together.

Stoudemire flat-out refuses to play defense in this series. And he’s a reluctant rebounder (nine boards in two games). Pau Gasol has Stoudemire tied to his belt loop, and Gasol is walking Stoudemire around the yard offering the 6-10 power forward to Andrew Bynum and Lamar Odom for a pack of cigarettes.

Howard is supposed to be the second coming of Bill Russell. What an insult to Russell. I regret ever making the comparison. To compete in this series, Orlando doesn’t need Howard to score a point. The Magic need Howard to scare Rajon Rondo and Big Baby out of the lane, ignite a quicker offensive pace with crisp outlet passes and control the boards.

Howard had eight rebounds and zero blocks in Game 2. ESPN’s Mark Jackson, the best NBA color analyst, labeled Howard’s 30 points “fool’s gold.”

Bill Russell struck fear in his opponents. The refs are afraid of Howard’s nonstop whining. Thanks to Howard, Orlando is looking for excuses rather than looking for a fight against grown men.

Howard and Stoudemire are two tricks getting treated.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/amare-stoudemire-dwight-howard-just-punk-kids-jason-whitlock-052010

Gibby23
05-20-2010, 09:47 PM
If Boston beats Orlando, they'll definitely remind the league of who they are when they roll over the Lakers again. Pau will go back to being Gasoft and Kobe will be arguing about his lack of calls again.

Like I said, whoever wins the East, will win it all.

It's not if, it's when. Orlando is done and ask the little child playing center for the Magic if Gasol is still soft, he did take the kid to school last year, and he wont get the chance this year.

Raph12
05-20-2010, 10:40 PM
It's not if, it's when. Orlando is done and ask the little child playing center for the Magic if Gasol is still soft, he did take the kid to school last year, and he wont get the chance this year.

Gasol was soft last year as well, I don't consider flopping and dunking the ball off Kobe-passes "taking the kid to school"

Maybe you missed the 08 Finals, the way I remember it, KG, Davis and Perk made Gasol look like a little girl, crying and complaining about the physicality of the game. Dwight dropped 30pts on the Celts in Game 2 against a mix of the four Celts bigs (Perk, Sheed, Davis and KG) attacking him on defense, Pau couldn't even score 20pts in the 08 Finals lol. Gasol can't handle physicality, he resorts to flopping and hoping the refs give him the benefit of the doubt.

You'd better pray the Magic beat the Celts, if they don't, get ready to go back in time, a time where the Lakers fans called Gasol, Gasoft.


Careful, this might end up in some ones sig.

That's okay, if the Lakeshow beats the Celts in a 7-game series, I'll be the happiest Magic fan in the world, I just don't think they will.