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StrandedCub
05-18-2010, 06:36 PM
CHICAGO -- Cubs manager Lou Piniella said Tuesday that Carlos Zambrano will throw three more times in long relief in preparation to return to the starting rotation.

Piniella said after Monday's game that Zambrano would go from set-up man to long relief in order to prepare him for a return to the rotation.

"We are changing Zambrano's role," Piniella said Monday. "We thought the outcome would be a little different.

"He's not as comfortable pitching short. We're going to use him in a different role. Get him some stamina and build up his arm. That's what we're going to do."

Piniella was asked if his next step would be returning to the rotation.

"The next step? Probably down the road, yes," Piniella said Monday.

Zambrano said he had a meeting with Piniella and pitching coach Larry Rothschild before Monday's game and they told him he's being stretched out to prepare for a return as the starter.

"He told me that today," Zambrano said Monday. "We had a long conversation with the pitching coach.

"I just want to help the team. If they want to send me to the minor leagues to work, I'll work in the minor leagues. If they want me to work here, I'll work here. "

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5199380&campaign=rss&source=twitter&ex_cid=Twitter_espn_5199380


Lou on Big Z: "We'll put him back to his usual habitat and that's starting baseball games and we'll go from there." Again, no timetable.


Lou says plan is to stretch out Big Z to get him back in the #Cubs rotation. No timetable but needs at least two long relief outings to prep

Muskat Tweets


CHICAGO -- OK, if Carlos Zambrano is going back into the Cubs' rotation, who's out?
Chicago switched Zambrano from a starter to a reliever when Ted Lilly returned from the disabled list and because it needed some experience in the bullpen. But Zambrano will be back in the rotation as soon as he builds up arm strength. The Cubs aren't going with a six-man rotation.

"We'll look at that situation, and we'll make a determination," Cubs manager Lou Piniella said. "Let's hope it's a real, real tough choice. Let's concentrate on winning more ballgames and getting Zambrano ready for the rotation."

Not many teams can say they have too many starting pitchers.

"We talked about it in the spring, that we did have some depth in the rotation," Piniella said. "[Sean] Marshall was competing for a spot in the rotation in the spring, and he made the move to the bullpen and it's worked out quite well. He's flourished there."

When the Cubs' brass decided to move Zambrano to the bullpen, it thought his velocity would pick up. It didn't.

"The reason we put Carlos in the bullpen was because we talked about it as a staff, and we felt that with his experience and his intimidation factor that he would be best suited out of the rotation to do that," Piniella said.

Ryan Dempster was considered, because he was the Cubs' closer in 2007, which was Piniella's first year in Chicago.

"We signed him to start and he's done a nice job starting so we don't want to disturb that situation," Piniella said.

The Cubs also considered Randy Wells to make the switch, but decided not to interrupt his routine.

"Wells is doing a real nice job out of the rotation," Piniella said. "We're going to go with what we have and the way we're situated and go from there."

If it's not Dempster or Wells who switch to the bullpen, it could be Carlos Silva or Tom Gorzelanny. Neither Piniella nor general manager Jim Hendry wouldn't say. The focus now is getting Zambrano back into shape to start.

"He'll be a starter again, and we're optimistic that he'll still be an effective one," Hendry said. "Hopefully, he can find some of the magic that made him a high-end guy."

cubs.com

turnaround3
05-18-2010, 06:37 PM
Just reported in like a 15 second spot on SportsCenter, didn't mishear it, they specifically said returning to the rotation...

Um...

?

chicagofan71
05-18-2010, 06:39 PM
I bet Jackson is coming up to relieve now

faithfulfan
05-18-2010, 06:39 PM
Damn your quick. I just saw this on Sportscenter and brought up the page and 2 people already have created a thread on this.

turnaround3
05-18-2010, 06:39 PM
The musk rat has confirmed via twitter:


Lou on Big Z: "We'll put him back to his usual habitat and that's starting baseball games and we'll go from there." Again, no timetable.

CUBDOM4life
05-18-2010, 06:40 PM
Good. **** Lou.

turnaround3
05-18-2010, 06:40 PM
The big question then, who's sliding out of the rotation?

And are they headed for the pen, or the trading table?

faithfulfan
05-18-2010, 06:40 PM
Which starter goes to the pen? When is Z's first start? Does Silva start tonight and then move to the pen?

Jilly Bohnson
05-18-2010, 06:45 PM
I bet Jackson is coming up to relieve now

I'd assume he has another week or two in the minors. There's two ways this goes down that I can see. I'm really interested in who's going to the pen though. Hopefully someone's about to be traded.

Buckwheat
05-18-2010, 06:47 PM
I'd assume he has another week or two in the minors. There's two ways this goes down that I can see. I'm really interested in who's going to the pen though. Hopefully someone's about to be traded.

Jim Hendry?

faithfulfan
05-18-2010, 06:47 PM
I'd assume he has another week or two in the minors. There's two ways this goes down that I can see. I'm really interested in who's going to the pen though. Hopefully someone's about to be traded.

Would you expect it to be Silva or Gorz or someone else?

croce_99
05-18-2010, 06:52 PM
Chicago Cubs: Screwing up pitchers one at a time.

Gorz has been one of our most consistent starter. He has given up more than 3 runs once all season. He better not be thrown in the pen

Jilly Bohnson
05-18-2010, 06:54 PM
Would you expect it to be Silva or Gorz or someone else?

I would expect Gorz but I would hope Silva or Lilly.

StrandedCub
05-18-2010, 06:55 PM
It isn't going to be right away so it should be interesting to see what happens. I expect some kind of trade but who knows.


Lou says plan is to stretch out Big Z to get him back in the #Cubs rotation. No timetable but needs at least two long relief outings to prep

Muskat

Matchstckman
05-18-2010, 06:56 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion Wells gets traded. Just a hunch.

Jilly Bohnson
05-18-2010, 06:56 PM
Chicago Cubs: Screwing up pitchers one at a time.

Gorz has been one of our most consistent starter. He has given up more than 3 runs once all season. He better not be thrown in the pen

I would think that won't happen, since Grabow is here to stay and Marshall and Russell have both done well. It's gotta be Silva to the pen or some sort of trade. Unless....he couldn't be dumb enough to move Dempster back could he?

Jilly Bohnson
05-18-2010, 06:57 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion Wells gets traded. Just a hunch.

Wouldn't be a terrible idea to sell high on him. I would expect a fairly significant something back though.

StrandedCub
05-18-2010, 06:58 PM
6 man rotation? :shrug:

semperfi
05-18-2010, 07:00 PM
Trade Lilly.

aschram1170
05-18-2010, 07:02 PM
Ideally someone in the rotation is traded. If that is the case, hopefully Hendry doesn't just give them away.

If no one is traded, Silva seems to be the best candidate in my book. Quick glance at BR shows his best numbers are the 1st time through the order; whereas Z and Gorzy get better the 2nd and 3rd time through. Plus I feel he is the least likely to continue his current pace.

croce_99
05-18-2010, 07:02 PM
Trade Lilly.

So he can blow up the city of Chicago? I think not

thisizdayear
05-18-2010, 07:02 PM
i think everyone would agree that someone is going to get traded. everyone in the rotation is doing good right now. there HAS to be something beyond this that we don't know about

Jilly Bohnson
05-18-2010, 07:07 PM
So he can blow up the city of Chicago? I think not

:laugh2:

semperfi
05-18-2010, 07:08 PM
So he can blow up the city of Chicago? I think not

Funny.

redwhitenblue
05-18-2010, 07:12 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion Wells gets traded. Just a hunch.
That makes NO sense.

croce_99
05-18-2010, 07:13 PM
That makes NO sense.

Think about what you just said


Think about what team/organization we're talking about.



I think it makes perfect sense now :nod:

semperfi
05-18-2010, 07:15 PM
That makes NO sense.

Exactly, he's under control until 2014 and has been outstanding. You don't trade building blocks when you are no where near a "go for it" situation. Unless you are pulling in a hell of a package back.

redwhitenblue
05-18-2010, 07:16 PM
Think about what you just said


Think about what team/organization we're talking about.



I think it makes perfect sense now :nod:
Ugh, crap. You're right.

Jilly Bohnson
05-18-2010, 07:16 PM
That makes NO sense.

It would suck to lose him because he's cost controlled, however, if there's one thing we have depth in right now it's right handed starting pitching. If he could bring back something good, I'd be all for it.

redwhitenblue
05-18-2010, 07:18 PM
It would suck to lose him because he's cost controlled, however, if there's one thing we have depth in right now it's right handed starting pitching. If he could bring back something good, I'd be all for it.
If we want to trade a RHSP, Wells is 3rd on my list behind Silva, Zambrano

croce_99
05-18-2010, 07:21 PM
If we want to trade a RHSP, Wells is 3rd on my list behind Silva, Zambrano

Silva / Zman really don't have much trade value though :shrug:

Matchstckman
05-18-2010, 07:21 PM
If we want to trade a RHSP, Wells is 3rd on my list behind Silva, Zambrano

And they have $11 million and $18 million contracts respectively. You won't get **** in a trade for either of them unless you pop over a lot of money and the Cubs probably can't afford to do that.

I'm not saying I want Wells to go, I just have a feeling.

windycityD
05-18-2010, 07:22 PM
Wouldn't be a terrible idea to sell high on him. I would expect a fairly significant something back though.

Man, I don't know about coughing up Wells for what would be a middle of the road, vet middle reliever. Wells is the WHIP master of this staff and such a cheap option for years to come as a quality 4th or 5th starter. The guy has had two bad outings total since last season. I think we're almost beyond the he's lucky/ fluke stage with him and getting into something pretty nice stuff here.

If you're talking selling high, that guy is Silva, asap. But if you try and make a deal with him as the main piece, it's inevitable that a very decent-good young spec arm would be tacked on the deal as insurance. I would dangle Silva as soon as I could.

semperfi
05-18-2010, 07:24 PM
Lilly would bring the most back, plus he's gone after the year.

BcEuAbRsS
05-18-2010, 07:24 PM
Goodbye Wells...

Matchstckman
05-18-2010, 07:24 PM
Man, I don't know about coughing up Wells for what would be a middle of the road, vet middle reliever. Wells is the WHIP master of this staff and such a cheap option for years to come as a quality 4th or 5th starter. The guy has had two bad outings total since last season. I think we're almost beyond the he's lucky/ fluke stage with him and getting into something pretty nice stuff here.

If you're talking selling high, that guy is Silva, asap. But if you try and make a deal with him as the main piece, it's inevitable that a very decent-good young spec arm would be tacked on the deal as insurance. I would dangle Silva as soon as I could.

Again though, Silva costs $11m and I doubt a ton of people have much faith in him to continue this current stretch.

Matchstckman
05-18-2010, 07:25 PM
Lilly would bring the most back, plus he's gone after the year.

I just don't think they move him. I mean him coming back was the reason they moved Zambrano to the pen in the first place.

redwhitenblue
05-18-2010, 07:25 PM
And they have $11 million and $18 million contracts respectively. You won't get **** in a trade for either of them unless you pop over a lot of money and the Cubs probably can't afford to do that.

I'm not saying I want Wells to go, I just have a feeling.
Silva probably isn't as hard to sell right now as you may think.


Still, there's little reason to sell off the cheap pieces you have and hold onto the big contracts who are underperforming. That's not rebuilding or retooling, that's planning to suck.

semperfi
05-18-2010, 07:26 PM
I just don't think they move him. I mean him coming back was the reason they moved Zambrano to the pen in the first place.

Yeah, but look how that turned out.

Matchstckman
05-18-2010, 07:29 PM
Silva probably isn't as hard to sell right now as you may think.


Still, there's little reason to sell off the cheap pieces you have and hold onto the big contracts who are underperforming. That's not rebuilding or retooling, that's planning to suck.

I hope you're right about Silva because I in no way would prefer to trade Wells over Silva. I'm not sure I buy it though.

MJ-BULLS
05-18-2010, 07:50 PM
As expected, stupid move to put him in the pen in the first place.

die4cubs
05-18-2010, 08:18 PM
Doesn't Gorzelanny have options. They could send him down to the minors, bring him up later if there is a trade or an injury. If the Cubs trade Lilly, it wont be now, they'll probably wait little bit longer to see if they are out of contention in July.
BTW, the Cubs are not trading Wells.

Dmac
05-18-2010, 09:01 PM
I just don't think they move him. I mean him coming back was the reason they moved Zambrano to the pen in the first place.

Trading Lilly also says they are giving up the season. You don't trade one of your better starting pitchers if you are still trying to contend. If he does get traded, it will be at the deadline, if the Cubs are far enough out of it.

Silva would be ideal, but like you said, making 11 million this year and next, there are better and cheaper options out there for teams. The Cubs would pretty much have to pay most of his salary for next year for a team to bite.

Someone is probably going to go to the pen for the time being. More than likely it will be Silva.

BUD Bleachers
05-18-2010, 09:20 PM
There is for sure something up here, and if there truly isn't, then that's a problem too.

Z in the pen? Because you don't have a real set up guy?

$19MM per year to pitch a potential inning a game three 3-4 times a week (maybe)?

What a great "experiment?"

Does anyone have a serious issue with this whole thing with now knowing that he's just returning to the rotation anyways?

So bizarre.

What's up with Zambrano such that he's really fallen from grace so fast these days?

chicagofan71
05-18-2010, 09:32 PM
There is for sure something up here, and if there truly isn't, then that's a problem too.

Z in the pen? Because you don't have a real set up guy?

$19MM per year to pitch a potential inning a game three 3-4 times a week (maybe)?

What a great "experiment?"

Does anyone have a serious issue with this whole thing with now knowing that he's just returning to the rotation anyways?

So bizarre.

What's up with Zambrano such that he's really fallen from grace so fast these days?

Agreed. 8.2 innings? Some experiment

My bold prediction is one of Lilly/Silva gets dealt, Demp goes to the bullpen, Casey coleman pitches in the rotation, and Jay Jackson comes up for the pen, and PSD crashes as a result

Yagyu+
05-18-2010, 09:33 PM
There is for sure something up here, and if there truly isn't, then that's a problem too.

Z in the pen? Because you don't have a real set up guy?

$19MM per year to pitch a potential inning a game three 3-4 times a week (maybe)?

What a great "experiment?"

Does anyone have a serious issue with this whole thing with now knowing that he's just returning to the rotation anyways?

So bizarre.

What's up with Zambrano such that he's really fallen from grace so fast these days?

Taking issue with:

A. Zambrano's initial removal from the rotation.
B. Your point above.
C. Lilly having been rushed to join the rotation.

StrandedCub
05-18-2010, 09:54 PM
CHICAGO -- OK, if Carlos Zambrano is going back into the Cubs' rotation, who's out?
Chicago switched Zambrano from a starter to a reliever when Ted Lilly returned from the disabled list and because it needed some experience in the bullpen. But Zambrano will be back in the rotation as soon as he builds up arm strength. The Cubs aren't going with a six-man rotation.

"We'll look at that situation, and we'll make a determination," Cubs manager Lou Piniella said. "Let's hope it's a real, real tough choice. Let's concentrate on winning more ballgames and getting Zambrano ready for the rotation."

Not many teams can say they have too many starting pitchers.

"We talked about it in the spring, that we did have some depth in the rotation," Piniella said. "[Sean] Marshall was competing for a spot in the rotation in the spring, and he made the move to the bullpen and it's worked out quite well. He's flourished there."

When the Cubs' brass decided to move Zambrano to the bullpen, it thought his velocity would pick up. It didn't.

"The reason we put Carlos in the bullpen was because we talked about it as a staff, and we felt that with his experience and his intimidation factor that he would be best suited out of the rotation to do that," Piniella said.

Ryan Dempster was considered, because he was the Cubs' closer in 2007, which was Piniella's first year in Chicago.

"We signed him to start and he's done a nice job starting so we don't want to disturb that situation," Piniella said.

The Cubs also considered Randy Wells to make the switch, but decided not to interrupt his routine.

"Wells is doing a real nice job out of the rotation," Piniella said. "We're going to go with what we have and the way we're situated and go from there."

If it's not Dempster or Wells who switch to the bullpen, it could be Carlos Silva or Tom Gorzelanny. Neither Piniella nor general manager Jim Hendry wouldn't say. The focus now is getting Zambrano back into shape to start.

"He'll be a starter again, and we're optimistic that he'll still be an effective one," Hendry said. "Hopefully, he can find some of the magic that made him a high-end guy."

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100518&content_id=10171296&notebook_id=10171300&vkey=notebook_chc&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc

Jilly Bohnson
05-18-2010, 11:03 PM
If we want to trade a RHSP, Wells is 3rd on my list behind Silva, Zambrano

Well yeah, but other teams probably see them the same way, and he's also going to bring back the best return.


Man, I don't know about coughing up Wells for what would be a middle of the road, vet middle reliever. Wells is the WHIP master of this staff and such a cheap option for years to come as a quality 4th or 5th starter. The guy has had two bad outings total since last season. I think we're almost beyond the he's lucky/ fluke stage with him and getting into something pretty nice stuff here.

If you're talking selling high, that guy is Silva, asap. But if you try and make a deal with him as the main piece, it's inevitable that a very decent-good young spec arm would be tacked on the deal as insurance. I would dangle Silva as soon as I could.

Wells is not going to get you a middle of the road, vet, middle reliever. If he nets us a reliever he's going to be a badass reliever, or he'll net us someone else at another position. He's now got almost 220 very good major league innings. If he's moved he'll net us a significant return.

Jilly Bohnson
05-18-2010, 11:10 PM
Trading Lilly also says they are giving up the season. You don't trade one of your better starting pitchers if you are still trying to contend. If he does get traded, it will be at the deadline, if the Cubs are far enough out of it.

Silva would be ideal, but like you said, making 11 million this year and next, there are better and cheaper options out there for teams. The Cubs would pretty much have to pay most of his salary for next year for a team to bite.

Someone is probably going to go to the pen for the time being. More than likely it will be Silva.

Trading Lilly doesn't say that. Small sample size obviously, but he's been the worst of the 5 current starters. And the Cubs, as long as Silva and Gorz continue what they're doing, have 6 legit starters. If dealing Lilly gets us something else, like a legit setup man, then people will understand.


Agreed. 8.2 innings? Some experiment

My bold prediction is one of Lilly/Silva gets dealt, Demp goes to the bullpen, Casey coleman pitches in the rotation, and Jay Jackson comes up for the pen, and PSD crashes as a result

That makes absolutely zero sense.

RedHeadsRule
05-18-2010, 11:18 PM
I'd be okay with trading any of our starting pitchers except Dempster to make room for Z. We have a lot of guys who can put up similar numbers and a few of them could really get us a nice return in a trade.

Dmac
05-18-2010, 11:27 PM
Trading Lilly doesn't say that. Small sample size obviously, but he's been the worst of the 5 current starters. And the Cubs, as long as Silva and Gorz continue what they're doing, have 6 legit starters. If dealing Lilly gets us something else, like a legit setup man, then people will understand.



That makes absolutely zero sense.

He was also recovering from an injury. I'm not talking about what his results have been this season. Yes, his stats say he is the worst of the five at the moment, but logically, he is their best starting pitcher, and has been their best the last three plus seasons. If they believe they have a chance to win at all this year, he shouldn't be the one that is traded.

Kirel
05-18-2010, 11:33 PM
He was also recovering from an injury. I'm not talking about what his results have been this season. Yes, his stats say he is the worst of the five at the moment, but logically, he is their best starting pitcher, and has been their best the last three plus seasons. If they believe they have a chance to win at all this year, he shouldn't be the one that is traded.
It depends on the return.

Starting pitching depth is not that valuable. The incremental value of Lilly over, say, Silva is probably not high enough to be insurmountable. The player Lilly returns may only need to provide a win or so in value over whatever player he replaces to make it worth it to the team if Silva can stick as a back end NL starter.

And arguing that Lilly has been the Cubs best pitcher is going to be damn hard. He's not really been any better than Zambrano. Dempster is the top guy in this rotation the last couple seasons.

Jilly Bohnson
05-18-2010, 11:37 PM
He was also recovering from an injury. I'm not talking about what his results have been this season. Yes, his stats say he is the worst of the five at the moment, but logically, he is their best starting pitcher, and has been their best the last three plus seasons. If they believe they have a chance to win at all this year, he shouldn't be the one that is traded.

I'm not saying he's the worst, but losing him hardly sinks the team if what he brings back helps us somewhere else. The difference between him and our 5th guy probably isn't huge over 2/3's of a season.

Bearsfan54
05-19-2010, 12:52 AM
Just saw it on espn... Says Big Z is back in the rotation, hopefully that means gorzo to the pen as our lefty specialist

croce_99
05-19-2010, 12:53 AM
:facepalm:
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=486849

Ron!n
05-19-2010, 12:55 AM
Im thinking if anyones getting traded its Lilly.

A) His contract expires this season, and i doubt Hendry is going to resign him with JJ and Cashner on deck and a full rotation already.

B) He's had a good couple starts so hes proved that hes still good. Its possible that they were just waiting on Lilly to show that he wasnt affected by his injury and hes done that.

C) He's probably got one of the highest returns of any of our starters outside of Wells. and hes a lock for Type A so any team could possibly get their pieces back.

CubbieSteve
05-19-2010, 12:58 AM
Im thinking if anyones getting traded its Lilly.

A) His contract expires this season, and i doubt Hendry is going to resign him with JJ and Cashner on deck and a full rotation already.

B) He's had a good couple starts so hes proved that hes still good. Its possible that they were just waiting on Lilly to show that he wasnt affected by his injury and hes done that.

C) He's probably got one of the highest returns of any of our starters outside of Wells. and hes a lock for Type A so any team could possibly get their pieces back.

D) He's threatened to kill everyone in Chicago if Lou doesn't let him bat 3rd from here on out

DamnGoat
05-19-2010, 01:05 AM
Some kind of deal has to be in the works here. It wouldn't shock me to see Lilly or Wells dealt for a stud setup man. If there's any way to sell high on Silva then that'd be ideal, but I don't see that happening.

Tehjosha
05-19-2010, 01:35 AM
Im thinking if anyones getting traded its Lilly.

A) His contract expires this season, and i doubt Hendry is going to resign him with JJ and Cashner on deck and a full rotation already.

B) He's had a good couple starts so hes proved that hes still good. Its possible that they were just waiting on Lilly to show that he wasnt affected by his injury and hes done that.

C) He's probably got one of the highest returns of any of our starters outside of Wells. and hes a lock for Type A so any team could possibly get their pieces back.

I've been thinking about this for a little while now, and I agree with this 100%. If anyone is going to be moved, which seems likely at this point, Lilly makes the most sense.

Dempster is a definite no. Zambrano and Silva are unlikely due to their contracts. Wells probably brings back the most in a deal, but I would think that Hendry would have to get a very favorable deal in order to let Wells go.

I think that Lilly has to be the guy. He needed a few starts to look good, but he's looking better now with each start. Contract up at the end of the season. Possible Type A. I'm leaning towards a deal involving Lilly as well.

Yagyu+
05-19-2010, 02:40 AM
Maybe move this to the Zambrano thread? From Cubs f/x (http://www.cubsfx.com/2010/05/end-of-zambrano-reliever-error.html):


Someone realized putting a solid starter in the bullpen was a bad idea, and Carlos Zambrano is on his way back to the rotation. He'll pitch in long relief until he's stretched out enough to start. The Cubs are being coy, but it's pretty clear this is what's going on.

Other things that are clear:

1. Zambrano's four-seam fastball dominated his pitch mix while in relief, further exasperating (IMO) his decision to "drop" the cutter in 2010 (he hasn't altogether).

2. Zambrano's only effective pitch in relief was his fastball (rvERA is based on actual outcomes, rvERAe is based on outcomes derived from batted ball types -- in other words, it regresses batted ball outcomes to league average; reality is often somewhere in between). A case could be made for the splitter, too.

{Zambrano Pitch Mix Chart}


Start Relief
Pitch # rvERA rvERAe # rvERA rvERAe
Change-Up1 4.30 4.30 0
Sinker 152 9.10 4.11 40 15.27 10.34
Fast 85 7.13 5.87 90 2.18 2.21
Cutter 3 7.59 7.59 3 7.40 7.40
Split 101 3.39 3.22 25 3.20 7.81
Slider 57 2.15 0.71 23 11.32 7.03
399 6.22 3.80 181 6.46 5.48

3. As shown above, he was more effective overall as a starter.

4. This one is about non-clarity -- was he throwing harder out of the bullpen?


Pitch SP RP
Sinker 91.2 91.2
Fastball 90.8 92.1
Slider 80.1 80.1
Splitter 84.3 83.5

Given the lack of secondary pitches, relatively speaking, in his relief appearances it may be easy to look at the fastball speed and go "yes, faster", but I'm not so sure.

I can dig up some more stuff (I have) but, given the small samples, I think I've done enough and still feel like I can say: Big Z couldn't use all his pitches as a reliever, and part of what makes him special is his extensive repertoire. He'll need time to get that feel back, not just the stamina, before he can go seven innings again.

AllStar44
05-19-2010, 08:11 AM
I think you move Gorzo to the pen and keep some competition with the starting rotation, when it gets close to the trade deadline if we don't have a legit shot at the division or we haven't turned a corner yet then you try to sell high on Lilly. Imo.

Dfan25
05-19-2010, 10:10 AM
I don't think a trade is coming yet. Too early in the season still. They need a stud set-up guy but i am not sure there are many available at this point . It will really be interesting to see who goes out. Nobody really deserves to lose a spot in the rotation. With that said here is what i think Lou will do.


I have a feeling Lou will move Carlos Silva to the bullpen. Obviously the rightside of the pen needs help. The cubs already have 2 lefties in the pen and Russell doesn't deserve to lose his spot. IMHO that's why Lou probably won't move Gorzo to the pen. My prediction is Zambrano takes Silva's place in the rotation and Jackson comes up with Berg going down.


If it were me i would probably keep Silva in the rotation with Gorzo going to the pen . Then Berg goes down and one of Stevens- Parker comes up. We'll see what happens. It will be interesting for sure.

windycityD
05-19-2010, 10:28 AM
I don't think a trade is coming yet. Too early in the season still. They need a stud set-up guy but i am not sure there are many available at this point . It will really be interesting to see who goes out. Nobody really deserves to lose a spot in the rotation. With that said here is what i think Lou will do.


I have a feeling Lou will move Carlos Silva to the bullpen. Obviously the rightside of the pen needs help. The cubs already have 2 lefties in the pen and Russell doesn't deserve to lose his spot. IMHO that's why Lou probably won't move Gorzo to the pen. My prediction is Zambrano takes Silva's place in the rotation and Jackson comes up with Berg going down.


If it were me i would probably keep Silva in the rotation with Gorzo going to the pen . Then Berg goes down and one of Stevens- Parker comes up. We'll see what happens. It will be interesting for sure.

Although I feel Stevens will be traded later this season/ year, if he gets jumped over by Jackson and/ or Parker, it's safe to say Lou don't like the guy. He's already had Berg and Caridad jump over him this season, and both have been more awful than not.

A 6 man rotation until/ near the deadline makes total sense in a season that so far has made little sense. Let's be honest here, no one in the 5 deserves a pen demotion. The only way this could work, per Bob last night, is if you gave extra days off to Silva and Gorzo. In the case of Silva, that would not be a bad thing at all. I have to hand it to him, he's pitching somewhat hurt and has been all balls so far with good results to boot. That still does not mean he'll keep this up. IMO, he simply wont.

I do not want to see Wells or Gorzo traded for pen help. Silva is the guy you try and sell, if/ when it comes to that in July. Let's assume by July, he's tapered off but not bottomed out. His trade value would never be better imo.

weneedpitching
05-19-2010, 10:40 AM
I don't think a trade is coming yet. Too early in the season still. They need a stud set-up guy but i am not sure there are many available at this point . It will really be interesting to see who goes out. Nobody really deserves to lose a spot in the rotation. With that said here is what i think Lou will do.


I have a feeling Lou will move Carlos Silva to the bullpen. Obviously the rightside of the pen needs help. The cubs already have 2 lefties in the pen and Russell doesn't deserve to lose his spot. IMHO that's why Lou probably won't move Gorzo to the pen. My prediction is Zambrano takes Silva's place in the rotation and Jackson comes up with Berg going down.


If it were me i would probably keep Silva in the rotation with Gorzo going to the pen . Then Berg goes down and one of Stevens- Parker comes up. We'll see what happens. It will be interesting for sure.

How can you take Silva out of the rotation with the way he's been pitching? It is apparent he has a fragile psyche and his performance is driven by his confidence level. I think he kind of needs to be babied and we need to ride out his good stretch as long as he can keep it going. I think a move to the pen could result in a shot to Silva's ego. He's attributed much of his new-found confidence to the faith the Cubs FO and coaching staff have shown in him. http://www.theolympian.com/2010/05/13/1237112/silva-yes-carlos-silva-lifts-cubs.html I think if he moves to the pen, he falls apart.

Ron!n
05-19-2010, 10:55 AM
I think you move Gorzo to the pen and keep some competition with the starting rotation, when it gets close to the trade deadline if we don't have a legit shot at the division or we haven't turned a corner yet then you try to sell high on Lilly. Imo.
Gorzo has been our best pitcher. You cant waste that production in the pen.


How can you take Silva out of the rotation with the way he's been pitching? It is apparent he has a fragile psyche and his performance is driven by his confidence level. I think he kind of needs to be babied and we need to ride out his good stretch as long as he can keep it going. I think a move to the pen could result in a shot to Silva's ego. He's attributed much of his new-found confidence to the faith the Cubs FO and coaching staff have shown in him. http://www.theolympian.com/2010/05/13/1237112/silva-yes-carlos-silva-lifts-cubs.html I think if he moves to the pen, he falls apart.

Withstanding his confidence, his pitching style probably wouldnt work in the pen IMO.
He doesnt have the ability to strike guys out and he pitches to contact.


Also anyone else remember what happened the last time Z was away from the rotation for a long time? Just a hint, it happened on neutral ground.

scrubs101
05-19-2010, 11:05 AM
Think about what you just said


Think about what team/organization we're talking about.



I think it makes perfect sense now :nod:

they're dumb but not that dumb......you don't trade a quality starter thats costing you pennies.

Str1fe5
05-19-2010, 11:41 AM
Way too much emphasis is being placed on the first 6 weeks of this season. Carlos Silva is a meh pitcher overall. Silva's career numbers when healthy are a better indicator of his performance than his last 6 or 7 starts are. They just are. What's more, Silva has a 4.60 ERA since Z was moved to the pen, so its not like Silva has been cruising the whole time. He was great last night, and he's getting outs, and that's great, but this is another Jason Marquis, folks. Useful player, but nothing to wring our hands about. Gorzo is 27 and has the most upside of any pitcher in the rotation currently outside of Wells. He also happens to be left handed and has better peripherals than Silva. He shouldn't go to the pen. The worst SP the Cubs have had has been Ted Lilly, but he's coming back from injury and we know what he can do, and he's also left handed. You take the journey man pitcher and you put him in the pen, while you try to work out a trade for him.

I personally think the Cubs should try to go for big game and get Soria from the Royals. A package of Gorzo + a little more would probably do it. I don't think we'd need to give up any of our big 5 to do it, either. I would be perfectly fine with that. The fact of the matter is that there aren't a whole lot of lights out set up guys in the league in general. Not that you really can expect to continue a solid performance when they change teams anyway. The great relievers are all closers, and the great set up guys are generally guys that have had a hot year or two. Sustainable success in the bullpen almost always means short 1 and 2 year spurts. Soria significantly changes the calber of our pen though, that's for sure.

Ron!n
05-19-2010, 11:46 AM
Way too much emphasis is being placed on the first 6 weeks of this season. Carlos Silva is a meh pitcher overall. Silva's career numbers when healthy are a better indicator of his performance than his last 6 or 7 starts are. They just are. What's more, Silva has a 4.60 ERA since Z was moved to the pen, so its not like Silva has been cruising the whole time. He was great last night, and he's getting outs, and that's great, but this is another Jason Marquis, folks. Useful player, but nothing to wring our hands about. Gorzo is 27 and has the most upside of any pitcher in the rotation currently outside of Wells. He also happens to be left handed and has better peripherals than Silva. He shouldn't go to the pen. The worst SP the Cubs have had has been Ted Lilly, but he's coming back from injury and we know what he can do, and he's also left handed. You take the journey man pitcher and you put him in the pen, while you try to work out a trade for him.

I personally think the Cubs should try to go for big game and get Soria from the Royals. A package of Gorzo + a little more would probably do it. I don't think we'd need to give up any of our big 5 to do it, either. I would be perfectly fine with that. The fact of the matter is that there aren't a whole lot of lights out set up guys in the league in general. Not that you really can expect to continue a solid performance when they change teams anyway. The great relievers are all closers, and the great set up guys are generally guys that have had a hot year or two. Sustainable success in the bullpen almost always means short 1 and 2 year spurts. Soria significantly changes the calber of our pen though, that's for sure.
Just pointing out that Lilly had one bad start. Its not like hes been crap out there.

Also the good thing about Soria is that hes signed through 2014, so youd have control of him for a good time. Only issue is im not too sure how keen he'd be on setting up instead of closing, then again it wouldnt be up to him.

Str1fe5
05-19-2010, 11:51 AM
I've been thinking about this for a little while now, and I agree with this 100%. If anyone is going to be moved, which seems likely at this point, Lilly makes the most sense.

Dempster is a definite no. Zambrano and Silva are unlikely due to their contracts. Wells probably brings back the most in a deal, but I would think that Hendry would have to get a very favorable deal in order to let Wells go.

I think that Lilly has to be the guy. He needed a few starts to look good, but he's looking better now with each start. Contract up at the end of the season. Possible Type A. I'm leaning towards a deal involving Lilly as well.

Yeah, he seems like a perfect fit for SDN if we ask for non MLB ready type talent. They aren't going to trade their closer if they are trading for a 1 year rental player. But when Jon Garland is your third starter, and your ace is a 22 year old and 2nd best starter is a 26 year old in his first full year starting, you probably want a proven guy like Lilly to anchor your rotation.

Maybe something like Lilly for Luke Gregorson + a guy or two with upside? Especially if we agree to foot the bill for them in return. That might be best for all parties involved, we get our RHP set up guy to compliment Marshall, get some value back for Lilly in the process, and the Padres get an extreme FB pitcher with a track record of success in the NL to give them some veteran stability in a surprising pennant chase for them.

Str1fe5
05-19-2010, 11:52 AM
Sorry just thought of this now: Why wouldn't we send down Caridad? He has been terrible both before and after his injury.

cowboydoc45
05-19-2010, 12:06 PM
Yeah, he seems like a perfect fit for SDN if we ask for non MLB ready type talent. They aren't going to trade their closer if they are trading for a 1 year rental player. But when Jon Garland is your third starter, and your ace is a 22 year old and 2nd best starter is a 26 year old in his first full year starting, you probably want a proven guy like Lilly to anchor your rotation.

Maybe something like Lilly for Luke Gregorson + a guy or two with upside? Especially if we agree to foot the bill for them in return. That might be best for all parties involved, we get our RHP set up guy to compliment Marshall, get some value back for Lilly in the process, and the Padres get an extreme FB pitcher with a track record of success in the NL to give them some veteran stability in a surprising pennant chase for them.

I like this idea... I mean, I really like this idea.

windycityD
05-19-2010, 12:17 PM
Sorry just thought of this now: Why wouldn't we send down Caridad? He has been terrible both before and after his injury.

Caridad and Berg have both been bad. I would seriously skate with a 6 man rotation for another 6 weeks, send those two down, and bring up Stevens and Cashner. Whichever one of those two does the best, plug him into the regular 7th & 8th inning rotation with Marshall and Grabow. The other one goes to long relief. Why in the hell do we even need to debate a trade at this point? It wont happen anyway, way too early. Castro was brought up and is doing fairly well. Why wait on Cashner?

Matchstckman
05-19-2010, 12:21 PM
This thread has made me decide I hate the name "Gorzo" for Gorzelanny. It just sounds awkward in my brain. Let's just call him "Gorz" and move on. Why force that extra syllable for no reason?

Matchstckman
05-19-2010, 12:23 PM
Caridad and Berg have both been bad. I would seriously skate with a 6 man rotation for another 6 weeks, send those two down, and bring up Stevens and Cashner. Whichever one of those two does the best, plug him into the regular 7th & 8th inning rotation with Marshall and Grabow. The other one goes to long relief. Why in the hell do we even need to debate a trade at this point? It wont happen anyway, way too early. Castro was brought up and is doing fairly well. Why wait on Cashner?

Why rush him either? Especially when it seems pretty clear the organization is setting up our next best pitching prospect to handle a BP role in the near future.

Dfan25
05-19-2010, 01:06 PM
How can you take Silva out of the rotation with the way he's been pitching? It is apparent he has a fragile psyche and his performance is driven by his confidence level. I think he kind of needs to be babied and we need to ride out his good stretch as long as he can keep it going. I think a move to the pen could result in a shot to Silva's ego. He's attributed much of his new-found confidence to the faith the Cubs FO and coaching staff have shown in him. http://www.theolympian.com/2010/05/13/1237112/silva-yes-carlos-silva-lifts-cubs.html I think if he moves to the pen, he falls apart.


Like i said before if it were me i would keep Silva in the rotation. I can see Lou doing this because the cubs have 5 good SP options besides Silva and are in need of someone to help in the 8th. At this point i really don't think Lou cares about ego's he just cares about winning games. He didn't care about Z's ego when he moved him to the pen. I understand Z said all the right things but you know deep inside he wasn't a happy guy and even said he wasn't a relief pitcher.

Dfan25
05-19-2010, 01:13 PM
Gorzo has been our best pitcher. You cant waste that production in the pen.



Withstanding his confidence, his pitching style probably wouldnt work in the pen IMO.
He doesnt have the ability to strike guys out and he pitches to contact.


Also anyone else remember what happened the last time Z was away from the rotation for a long time? Just a hint, it happened on neutral ground.



I don't know about that. I mean in a perfect world you want a power arm as one of your main pen guys but i don't think is a must. I think in the situation the cubs are in with their pen they simply want someone who they can bring in to start the 8th inning and protect a lead. If Silva were to me moved to the pen he would most likely be used that way. I prefer Silva to stay in the rotation for now at the least but if Lou goes this way i could understand the move for the reasons i listed in previous post. It will be interesting for sure to see what happens if no trade is coming.

Doogolas
05-19-2010, 01:30 PM
No. You don't waste Gorzo in the pen. Especially since we already have two lefty pen arms.

AllStar44
05-19-2010, 01:45 PM
I just like the competition that we have with 6 SP. I don't really know who should get moved to the pen or if that's even the best option.

The Gorz for Soria trade would be pretty nice. Didn't the Royals come out and say they wanted to trade him, or something like that.

Yagyu+
05-19-2010, 01:53 PM
Gorzo has been our best pitcher. You cant waste that production in the pen.

Withstanding his confidence, his pitching style probably wouldnt work in the pen IMO.
He doesnt have the ability to strike guys out and he pitches to contact.

Also anyone else remember what happened the last time Z was away from the rotation for a long time? Just a hint, it happened on neutral ground.

Value-wise I thought Wells has been the best starting pitcher?

Despite a .342 babip, he's done really well. His ERA is 4.13, but his FIP is just 2.97 and his xFIP is 3.47 -- a full run under last year and nearly a run under 2009, respectively.

Wells has been worth 1.4 WAR so far. Gorzelanny 1.3 and Dempster 1.2.

As bogus as it is, Lou looks at W-L, and Gorzelanny has a worse record than Silva. Doog is right. It'd be a waste, but I could see him headed to the pen -- all that's giving me pause for thought here is that he's a lefty.

Silva should be headed to the pen. But I'd much rather flip him while his value is up. Lilly at the deadline also makes sense to me.

Solid Snake
05-19-2010, 02:17 PM
Man, I don't know WTF is wrong with Z. Pitching out of the bullpen is supposed to be easier than starting. Unless he's just downright moping, which there isn't any indication of, what is wrong with him? His avg velocity is the lowest of his career. And that's with the stint in the bullpen that was supposed to bump his velocity up (I've seen Hendry mention that was something they were looking for when moving him to the pen).


Yes, it’s 14 innings, but so far, Sergio Santos is out-pitching almost every big name reliever in baseball. It’s a testament to how much improvement he made in spring training, the skills of White Sox pitching coach Don Cooper, and, truthfully, how very easy it is to be a relief pitcher if you have a good arm.

That's what Dave Cameron said about Sergio Santos, but it's pretty much a consensus opinion that it should be VERY EASY to pitch out of the pen if you have a good arm.

I really really hope Fat Z can pitch decently when he returns to starting, and can then be peddled off to the Mariners or Red Sox something. He has a nice career FIP they would like.

Doogolas
05-19-2010, 02:31 PM
How about this:

One of the things that makes Z special is that he has a large number of plus pitches and no truly amazing single pitch. From the pen you really take that away from him.

~~~This info is brought to you from Harry.

Jilly Bohnson
05-19-2010, 02:34 PM
Man, I don't know WTF is wrong with Z. Pitching out of the bullpen is supposed to be easier than starting. Unless he's just downright moping, which there isn't any indication of, what is wrong with him? His avg velocity is the lowest of his career. And that's with the stint in the bullpen that was supposed to bump his velocity up (I've seen Hendry mention that was something they were looking for when moving him to the pen).


That's what Dave Cameron said about Sergio Santos, but it's pretty much a consensus opinion that it should be VERY EASY to pitch out of the pen if you have a good arm.

I really really hope Fat Z can pitch decently when he returns to starting, and can then be peddled off to the Mariners or Red Sox something. He has a nice career FIP they would like.

His fielding independent numbers were great out of the pen, and they were starting too. He's just been getting bent over by the BABIP gods this year. You know that.

Kirel
05-19-2010, 02:41 PM
Way too much emphasis is being placed on the first 6 weeks of this season. Carlos Silva is a meh pitcher overall. Silva's career numbers when healthy are a better indicator of his performance than his last 6 or 7 starts are. They just are. What's more, Silva has a 4.60 ERA since Z was moved to the pen, so its not like Silva has been cruising the whole time. He was great last night, and he's getting outs, and that's great, but this is another Jason Marquis, folks. Useful player, but nothing to wring our hands about. Gorzo is 27 and has the most upside of any pitcher in the rotation currently outside of Wells. He also happens to be left handed and has better peripherals than Silva. He shouldn't go to the pen. The worst SP the Cubs have had has been Ted Lilly, but he's coming back from injury and we know what he can do, and he's also left handed. You take the journey man pitcher and you put him in the pen, while you try to work out a trade for him.

I personally think the Cubs should try to go for big game and get Soria from the Royals. A package of Gorzo + a little more would probably do it. I don't think we'd need to give up any of our big 5 to do it, either. I would be perfectly fine with that. The fact of the matter is that there aren't a whole lot of lights out set up guys in the league in general. Not that you really can expect to continue a solid performance when they change teams anyway. The great relievers are all closers, and the great set up guys are generally guys that have had a hot year or two. Sustainable success in the bullpen almost always means short 1 and 2 year spurts. Soria significantly changes the calber of our pen though, that's for sure.
Your obsession with making bad trades for relievers is bordering on ridiculous man.

Mell413
05-19-2010, 02:42 PM
I like Strife's Lilly for Gregerson idea. He could be a nice piece to the bullpen for a while. With him, Marshall, and Marmol the game could be over after 6. The deal also makes sense for SD as well since Lilly would give them a proven starter for a potential playoff run.

gocubs2118
05-19-2010, 02:49 PM
Lilly would kill in a park like Petco. Its fly ball pitchers dream to pitch in that park.

BDawk4Prez
05-19-2010, 02:54 PM
Big Z, back where he belongs.

fabian555
05-19-2010, 03:03 PM
Throwing Silva in the pen is NUTS he is making the Milton trade look like a thing of pure Genius.( unless he is hurt which it kinda looked like in yesterday's game against the rockies.

Str1fe5
05-19-2010, 03:09 PM
Your obsession with making bad trades for relievers is bordering on ridiculous man.

I think your over valuing of Gorzellany is bordering on ridiculous.

Kirel
05-19-2010, 03:48 PM
I think your over valuing of Gorzellany is bordering on ridiculous.
IMHO, trading for relief pitchers when you have too damn many is perhaps one of the worst choices a team can make...

Strike that, trading for relief pitchers is only a better idea than actually *SIGNING* relief pitchers. You shouldn't do it.

Str1fe5
05-19-2010, 04:05 PM
IMHO, trading for relief pitchers when you have too damn many is perhaps one of the worst choices a team can make...

Strike that, trading for relief pitchers is only a better idea than actually *SIGNING* relief pitchers. You shouldn't do it.

In general that's true, but not when you are talking about one of the top 10 or 15 relievers in all of baseball, and when that stable of relief pitchers on your own squad blows outside of your top pitching spec.

windycityD
05-19-2010, 04:12 PM
Why rush him either? Especially when it seems pretty clear the organization is setting up our next best pitching prospect to handle a BP role in the near future.

He's actually being groomed as a starter, yet was a closer in college when we drafted him. I'm not a fan of the yo yo treatment, but we have pen needs right now and he's a viable in-house option, along with Stevens.

Kirel
05-19-2010, 05:00 PM
In general that's true, but not when you are talking about one of the top 10 or 15 relievers in all of baseball, and when that stable of relief pitchers on your own squad blows outside of your top pitching spec.
There is a difference in "blows" and "scared to try anyone whos name ESPN doesn't known".

Matchstckman
05-19-2010, 07:21 PM
He's actually being groomed as a starter, yet was a closer in college when we drafted him. I'm not a fan of the yo yo treatment, but we have pen needs right now and he's a viable in-house option, along with Stevens.

But what I was getting at is Jackson is apparently being set up to come out of the pen himself.

StrandedCub
05-19-2010, 07:29 PM
Zambrano to Throw Simulated Game Monday


PHILADELPHIA -- Cubs right-hander Carlos Zambrano will throw a simulated game on Monday in an effort to ramp up his stamina for a return to Chicago's rotation.
Manager Lou Piniella said he will have Zambrano throw 60-70 pitches during the team's off-day Monday and see how the converted reliever feels. Zambrano has made eight appearances as a setup man since April 22, but the team announced on Tuesday that it is planning to move him back to the starting rotation.

On Wednesday, Piniella clarified the next few steps of that process.

"We'll give him a little work between now and Sunday," Piniella said. "If we can stretch him out, we'll do that; if not, we'll use him in the bullpen. Monday, we'll throw a nice simulated game. It's a day off, he can throw 60-70 pitches, and then we'll see how he feels after that. We'll see if he needs one more good work day in a game or if he's ready. We'll make that determination next week."

Zambrano has a 6.23 ERA as a reliever and a 7.45 ERA in four starts this season. The Cubs placed him in a setup role in an effort to boost the 6-foot-5, 260-pound right-hander's sagging velocity. So far, the results have been mixed.

But Piniella was pleased with Zambrano's appearance in the ninth inning of Chicago's 6-2 win over Colorado on Tuesday, in which he threw a scoreless inning with two strikeouts.

"If he goes out there in the rotation and throws the ball like he did last night, it's going to be a good situation for both Carlos and for us," Piniella said.

Cubs.com