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View Full Version : IF we were to go into Rebuild Mode ...



Reese's
05-18-2010, 04:09 AM
Who do you want the Cubs to trade? And who do you want them to keep?

IMO ...

Keep:
SS Castro (Obviously)
C Soto (Good Catchers are hard to come by and he's starting to heat up again)
CP Marmol (Getting better everyday and could be a top closer if he had an 8th inning guy)
OF Byrd (Just does everything right and is a great guy to have around)
3B Ramirez (Only 30 years old and has a few more good years left)
1B Lee (Gonna be a FA but we can get a solid pick for him, plus he's not the type of guy ya trade)
SS/2B Theriot (Good guy to have for both SS and 2B)
OF Colvin (Could be just a 4th OF but why not keep him around and see what he can do?)
SP Wells (Good guy to have, #3-5 Starter and he's only 26)
RP/SP Marshall (Works well in the pen and in the rotation)

Trade:
LF Soriano (Big contract, etc. gonna be hard to trade BUT he's playing well so a team MIGHT be willing to take him)
SP Big Z (Hasn't been a #1 or #2 for us in awhile)
SP Lilly (Gonna be gone next year anyways why not get something good for him?)
SP Dempster (Great guy but we need to get rid of his contract)
RF Fukudome (Good guy to have but doesnt really fit if we're rebuilding)
IF Fontenot (just not a fan of his)
SP Silva (Might be hard to deal him but we could try to convince a NL team to take him with his success so far in the NL)
SP Gorzelanny (Under control with a decent contract, plus he's still young, so he could get us a good return; if not then keep him)
RF/1B Nady (On a decent deal and could produce once he's 100%)
RP Grabow (Trade him for a bag of peanuts for all I care, his contract is HORRIBLE)
C Hill (Someone will be willing to take him on as a Defensive backup Catcher)
UTIL Baker (Someone is gonna wanna snag him up since he can play just about everywhere)

Obviously this wouldn't be something that would be able to happen all this summer before the Trade Deadline but some of it could and the rest could get taken care of in the Offseason once Pinella is gone and likely Hendry too. Wouldn't mind keeping Soriano or Big Z but the rest I would like to see go. Then get to see guys like Andy Cashner, Jay Jackson, Darwin Barney, Casey Coleman, Welington Castillo, etc. get a shot on the big league roster to see what they can do. This would also open the door for guys like Josh Vitters, Brett Jackson, etc. to make the club in a year/year in a half too.

NORTH10
05-18-2010, 04:31 AM
If you were going into rebuilding mode, then you start with Lee. He's the most logical piece to trade if it ever came down to that.

CubsFreek0680
05-18-2010, 06:46 AM
I'm praying for you Reese's

Milnertime
05-18-2010, 07:08 AM
Why do we need to move Dempster's contract but not Lee/Ramirez/Byrd's contracts?

I'd say Dempster's just about the most consistent thing on this team the last 3 years. The Cubs can afford 27.5MM for the next two years.

poodski
05-18-2010, 08:16 AM
Why do we need to move Dempster's contract but not Lee/Ramirez/Byrd's contracts?

I'd say Dempster's just about the most consistent thing on this team the last 3 years. The Cubs can afford 27.5MM for the next two years.

Agreed. I was not a fan of the Dempster contract at the time, but he has made a believer out of me.

Though I would trade Dempster because I think he could possible net us the biggest return of anyone on this team with a fairly large contract.

MLBfan24
05-18-2010, 08:36 AM
Any chance if the Reds stay in it we could give up Lilly or Dempster for Yonder Alonso. He is the ideal lefty first basemen we could build around

thawv
05-18-2010, 08:50 AM
If you were going into rebuilding mode, then you start with Lee. He's the most logical piece to trade if it ever came down to that.

The problem with trading Lee is, we would get very little in return. Every GM in baseball knows that when a team is attempting to move a FA that you have no intention in re signing, they don't have to offer much at all. They take the low ball offers, or they lose him to FA'cy.

cowboydoc45
05-18-2010, 09:01 AM
The problem with trading Lee is, we would get very little in return. Every GM in baseball knows that when a team is attempting to move a FA that you have no intention in re signing, they don't have to offer much at all. They take the low ball offers, or they lose him to FA'cy.

Not always, there are other factors, but with any player that is going into FA market the next season, the gaining team is going to offer less since it is a rental. (not always significantly, but probably like 1-2 high specs for a Type A FA)

poodski
05-18-2010, 09:02 AM
The problem with trading Lee is, we would get very little in return. Every GM in baseball knows that when a team is attempting to move a FA that you have no intention in re signing, they don't have to offer much at all. They take the low ball offers, or they lose him to FA'cy.

Yeah but getting something is better than nothing. He most likely isnt going to be offered arby. Its doubtful that that happens. So getting something is better than nothing.

LaToyaHawkins
05-18-2010, 09:07 AM
Derrek "6-4-3" Lee has to go. D-Lee, Lilly, Fukudome, and Aramis all need to be gone.

cowboydoc45
05-18-2010, 09:12 AM
Derrek "6-4-3" Lee has to go. D-Lee, Lilly, Fukudome, and Aramis all need to be gone.

:laugh2: it is DP Lee all over again :laugh2: Lee sucks at baseball :laugh2: Ramierez sucks at baseball :laugh2: Lilly couldn't pitch his way out of a wet paper sack :laugh2: Fukudome is a helicopter :laugh2:

windycityD
05-18-2010, 09:56 AM
The only way you truly begin to rebuild this season is by firing Hendry and Lou come late July. Really, that's the first step, b/c if you want an organizational sea change, those two do not represent that nor would they effectively facilitate that. Promote Bush to interim GM and let him make the deals. The guy has scouted other orgs for years now and would want to do right for himself for the chance at future gigs elsewhere.

Trammel would be your interim manager and Sandburg could come up and become a bench coach. Larry would be gone after this season. There is no way in hell Ryno would be the manager in 2011, unless of course more experienced options took a pass (including Trammel or Brenly not agreeing to a one year offer in 2011). I for one think the Girardi situation is not a slim odds one and that he would at least listen to Ricketts. That's the manager I would pursue as my #1 option. If he says no thanks, keep going down the list. I would also feel out Maddux about the pitching coach situation. Let's face it, one way or another, young arms are coming down the pike. I'd wager Maddux could do a fine job teaching them how to pitch at this level.

THE_G.O.A.T.
05-18-2010, 10:18 AM
:laugh2: it is DP Lee all over again :laugh2: Lee sucks at baseball :laugh2: Ramierez sucks at baseball :laugh2: Lilly couldn't pitch his way out of a wet paper sack :laugh2: Fukudome is a helicopter :laugh2:

Nice contribution. The Royals suck by the way.

Anyways, where are all the high and mighty people complaining about how this thread is stupid and should be deleted? I love those posts!

cowboydoc45
05-18-2010, 10:28 AM
Nice contribution. The Royals suck by the way.

Anyways, where are all the high and mighty people complaining about how this thread is stupid and should be deleted? I love those posts!

1. I am now and always have been a Cubs fan, simply changed my avatar and sig during the "Pirates Return to Relevence Tour" and never changed back...
2. I am aware the Royals suck, however, when was the last time they went to the World Series... I believe it was in my lifetime, the Cubs haven't been in over 100 years... what does that say.
3. My post was strictly sarcasm... none of the players listed "suck" at anything. Yes, Lee and Ramierez have both been in a slump, but they are starting to slowly get out of it.
4. It could be because some of the information on here is interesting, if not a bit of a panic. However, a lot of people have talked about "if the team should blow up" so it isn't so much a panic as a very pessimistic "what if" scenario.

thawv
05-18-2010, 02:40 PM
Yeah but getting something is better than nothing. He most likely isnt going to be offered arby. Its doubtful that that happens. So getting something is better than nothing.

Yes..........getting something is better than nothing. My only concern is that we won't get much back. But I guess it's better than nothing.

He probably won't be offered arby. Tough spot for the Cubs. If the did, I wonder what kind of money he would be asking for after this poor season. (to date) And also what the Cubs would offer him. If he declines, at least we'll get his new teams first round pick. But even that hardly ever pans out. Who knows?

poodski
05-18-2010, 02:43 PM
Would Lee be an A comp? I am not sure.

Jilly Bohnson
05-18-2010, 02:52 PM
Would Lee be an A comp? I am not sure.

Yes (********************************/2010/05/elias-rankings-update.html)

NORTH10
05-18-2010, 03:09 PM
I don't think this team will ever go into a true rebuilding mode. They are too big of a market to do so...it will throw away a lot of money. But, trading pieces like Lee or Lilly is understandable...dumping most of the team and heading into "rebuild mode" is just not going to happen.

Str1fe5
05-18-2010, 03:27 PM
1. Move Derrek Lee at deadline. Get whatever you can.
2. Move Ted Lilly at deadline. Get whatever you can.
3. Move Carlos Silva at the deadline. Get whatever you can.
4. Shop Fukudome - if you can get value great, if not, keep him.
5. Shop Byrd - if you can get value great, if not, keep him.
6. Shop Ryan Theriot. If you can get value great, if not, keep him.
6. Call up Andrew Cashner (closer to deadline).
7. Put Tyler Colvin either in LF or CF, depending on if you can move Byrd/Fukudome.
8. Put Xavier Nady in LF/RF, depending on if you can move Byrd/Fukudome.
9. Call up Sam Fuld.
10. Insert Cashner as your 5th starter.
11. Move Soriano to 1B.

Make a hard push to sign Cliff Lee if at all possible (something similar to the Roy Hallday deal or the Ted Lilly deal with more money).

Make a hard push to sign Jayson Werth if Tyler Colvin comes back down to Earth and you still Keep Fukudome/Byrd. Otherwise go after Werth if you have an opening in the OF.

Plan to keep Soriano at 1B unless you want to move Vitters/Ramirez there in 2012. Rotate him vs LHP in LF with Colvin if you have to in 2011.

I wouldn't do much with Fontenot/Baker/Nady. Nady's a bench player at this point he won't garner much interest, and Fontenot and Baker each are halves of a mediocre platoon, so they'll garner even less. Other than that, I'd move everyone who's a FA this year and see if I can move some guys who are having career years in Fukudome/Byrd/Silva and who probably doesn't have much of a future with the team in Theriot, but I wouldn't just give them away. Hopefully we can have Cashner up for the month of August once we make room in the rotation, and then make a determination from there on what to do with his innings in September (either continue starting him or move him to the BP). That should clear a good chunk of payroll for 2011, while allowing us to see what we have in Cashner and Castro for a good part of the year and likely stocking our farm and keeping it in the top 10 despite our 2 best specs graduating.

pakman23
05-18-2010, 03:53 PM
I don't think this team will ever go into a true rebuilding mode. They are too big of a market to do so...it will throw away a lot of money. But, trading pieces like Lee or Lilly is understandable...dumping most of the team and heading into "rebuild mode" is just not going to happen.

couldnt agree more. there are pieces we need to move and get better players in there, but a marlins esque rebuild is not in the cards.
we need a true middle of the order hitter and LOTS of bullpen help and this would be a good team. and as some of these contracts start expiring and/or we move them, we can slide in younger players hopefully with better contracts.

Mell413
05-18-2010, 04:01 PM
With the way the division is setup I don't think it's necessary to go into a full rebuilding mode. The division is too winnable to not even make an attempt to win it. I think you could do the rebuilding in waves though. I'd offer Lilly arbitration since I'm confident he could get a multi-year deal from someone. Lee is probably a wait and see. I just hope he hits well enough that some team like SF would offer him a multi year deal. I'd see what you can get for Silva I'd try to make a run at Cliff Lee this off-season. Not sure what I would do with Gorz ATM.

I'd try to sign Laroche or Pena to one year deals. I think they would be good stopgaps until the 2012 class. Maybe something like this for 2011

C Soto
1B Laroche/Pena
2B Fonty/Baker
SS Castro
3B Ramirez
LF Soriano
CF Byrd
RF Fukudome

Hill
Nady
Baker/Fonty
Tracy
Colvin

Lee
Z
Demp
Wells
Cashner

Marmol
Marshall
Grabow
Frasor
Jay Jackson depending on how he does assuming he goes to the pen
Silva
Caridad/Parker/Stevens/ETC

With a couple breaks here and there I think we can contend without going over the payroll we are at now.

ty_smitty21
05-18-2010, 04:36 PM
The Cubs and their 140 million dollar payroll and "win now" fan base will never be in full out rebuild mode. They might go into "mini-rebuild" mode and still try and compete in 2011.

Lou and Hendry will be gone.

Lee, Lilly, Z, Soriano, Fukudome, Nady will all be looked at as possible trades.

The Cubs can keep some guys around... have a few young players play everyday next year... the use the leftover money to fill holes...

we need to go after an ace pitcher, a middle of the order guy, and a brand new bullpen.

My rotation of next year: A new ace, Dempster, Wells, Cashner, Gorz/Silva

Jilly Bohnson
05-18-2010, 05:59 PM
1. Move Derrek Lee at deadline. Get whatever you can.
2. Move Ted Lilly at deadline. Get whatever you can.
3. Move Carlos Silva at the deadline. Get whatever you can.
4. Shop Fukudome - if you can get value great, if not, keep him.
5. Shop Byrd - if you can get value great, if not, keep him.
6. Shop Ryan Theriot. If you can get value great, if not, keep him.
6. Call up Andrew Cashner (closer to deadline).
7. Put Tyler Colvin either in LF or CF, depending on if you can move Byrd/Fukudome.
8. Put Xavier Nady in LF/RF, depending on if you can move Byrd/Fukudome.
9. Call up Sam Fuld.
10. Insert Cashner as your 5th starter.
11. Move Soriano to 1B.

Make a hard push to sign Cliff Lee if at all possible (something similar to the Roy Hallday deal or the Ted Lilly deal with more money).

Make a hard push to sign Jayson Werth if Tyler Colvin comes back down to Earth and you still Keep Fukudome/Byrd. Otherwise go after Werth if you have an opening in the OF.

Plan to keep Soriano at 1B unless you want to move Vitters/Ramirez there in 2012. Rotate him vs LHP in LF with Colvin if you have to in 2011.

I wouldn't do much with Fontenot/Baker/Nady. Nady's a bench player at this point he won't garner much interest, and Fontenot and Baker each are halves of a mediocre platoon, so they'll garner even less. Other than that, I'd move everyone who's a FA this year and see if I can move some guys who are having career years in Fukudome/Byrd/Silva and who probably doesn't have much of a future with the team in Theriot, but I wouldn't just give them away. Hopefully we can have Cashner up for the month of August once we make room in the rotation, and then make a determination from there on what to do with his innings in September (either continue starting him or move him to the BP). That should clear a good chunk of payroll for 2011, while allowing us to see what we have in Cashner and Castro for a good part of the year and likely stocking our farm and keeping it in the top 10 despite our 2 best specs graduating.

I like it except for Soriano at 1b. I think except for maybe 2011, he fits the team best in LF. And his lack of coordination probably means he'd have a steep learning curve at 1b.

poodski
05-18-2010, 06:03 PM
Yes (********************************/2010/05/elias-rankings-update.html)

Interesting. I honestly thought he would be lower. Hopefully he starts playing better though.

Str1fe5
05-18-2010, 06:07 PM
I like it except for Soriano at 1b. I think except for maybe 2011, he fits the team best in LF. And his lack of coordination probably means he'd have a steep learning curve at 1b.

I just think he's a better option @ 1B than some stop gap FA re tread (like Lee or Pena or Cantu or whoever), or forcing the issue with Vitters/Ramirez @ 3B on Opening Day 2011.

What I don't understand is this skepticism of Soriano's ability to play 1B. Virtually all 1B are between -5 and +5 in UZR, and most of the guys wouldn't have a prayer of playing any position other than 1B. Soriano had trouble @ 2B, that's true, but I just think playing 1B is easier than playing LF. I don't know what Soriano's true value in LF is - he makes a ton of stupid mistakes stemming almost entirely from being bad at judging balls or not knowing how to catch. I just don't see 2011 being any better from a competitive standpoint next year, with or without Derrek Lee. I'd rather free up an OF slot or two for Colvin/Jackson to play in for a year, while still leaving options open in the IF with regard to Vitters. Signing a full blown 1B kind of blocks him until you can make a trade if he's ready early in the year, and doing nothing and keeping Soriano in LF almost forces you to have Vitters up by Opening Day, either playing 1B (seriously reducing his ceiling in terms of value, giving him no ability to hone his footwork @ 3B), or playing 3B (which he might not be good enough to play at an MLB level), and that's assuming his bat is ready. I just dont like it. Moving Soriano to 1B, or having him learn 1B and having him float between 1B and LF while the Cubs juggle Vitters/Colvin/Ramirez/Jackson around just gives them the most options without tying our hands.

Jilly Bohnson
05-18-2010, 06:53 PM
I just think he's a better option @ 1B than some stop gap FA re tread (like Lee or Pena or Cantu or whoever), or forcing the issue with Vitters/Ramirez @ 3B on Opening Day 2011.

What I don't understand is this skepticism of Soriano's ability to play 1B. Virtually all 1B are between -5 and +5 in UZR, and most of the guys wouldn't have a prayer of playing any position other than 1B. Soriano had trouble @ 2B, that's true, but I just think playing 1B is easier than playing LF. I don't know what Soriano's true value in LF is - he makes a ton of stupid mistakes stemming almost entirely from being bad at judging balls or not knowing how to catch. I just don't see 2011 being any better from a competitive standpoint next year, with or without Derrek Lee. I'd rather free up an OF slot or two for Colvin/Jackson to play in for a year, while still leaving options open in the IF with regard to Vitters. Signing a full blown 1B kind of blocks him until you can make a trade if he's ready early in the year, and doing nothing and keeping Soriano in LF almost forces you to have Vitters up by Opening Day, either playing 1B (seriously reducing his ceiling in terms of value, giving him no ability to hone his footwork @ 3B), or playing 3B (which he might not be good enough to play at an MLB level), and that's assuming his bat is ready. I just dont like it. Moving Soriano to 1B, or having him learn 1B and having him float between 1B and LF while the Cubs juggle Vitters/Colvin/Ramirez/Jackson around just gives them the most options without tying our hands.

Now keep in mind this is from someone who hasn't played baseball above the T-ball level:

Is 1b really easier than LF? I mean it takes less athleticism. But scooping throws out of the dirt, bunt plays, etc. seem to me to be a lot more difficult than anything a left fielder does, coordination wise. I mean I don't think Soriano would be an atrocity there given time, but I think initially he'd be pretty awful, pretty much for teh bolded reasons.

And it'd be nice to not have to go the stopgap FA route, if Vitters is near ready at by the start of next year, we can have that stopgap 1b and then if/when Vitters is ready to come up either he or Rammy can slide over. That's something I'd be a lot more comfortable with than Soriano. Also, if we're just looking toward the future I don't think Soriano would be at 1b past next year anyway, and also I don't think Colvin has much future with this organization. But that's very much up for debate.

zambo4president
05-18-2010, 07:16 PM
If your rebuilding you dump Lee first I think, Lilly, Dempster, Zambo could go to a playoff contender at the break if we get a really good deal for one of them. Hopefully get someone to take Soriano and Silva.

Str1fe5
05-19-2010, 09:32 AM
Now keep in mind this is from someone who hasn't played baseball above the T-ball level:

Is 1b really easier than LF? I mean it takes less athleticism. But scooping throws out of the dirt, bunt plays, etc. seem to me to be a lot more difficult than anything a left fielder does, coordination wise. I mean I don't think Soriano would be an atrocity there given time, but I think initially he'd be pretty awful, pretty much for teh bolded reasons.

And it'd be nice to not have to go the stopgap FA route, if Vitters is near ready at by the start of next year, we can have that stopgap 1b and then if/when Vitters is ready to come up either he or Rammy can slide over. That's something I'd be a lot more comfortable with than Soriano. Also, if we're just looking toward the future I don't think Soriano would be at 1b past next year anyway, and also I don't think Colvin has much future with this organization. But that's very much up for debate.

I just dont think he would be that bad at 1B. I mean the positional adjustments are the way they are for a reason, they didn't just come from nowhere or some other person's intuition. First base is by far the easiest position on the diamond to play. I don't see how taking an average to above average LF and putting him @ 1B when he's already played the infield before would be that much of a liability.

Furthermore, what's the point of signing a stop gap 1B anyway? It likely blocks a player like Colvin unless the Cubs can actually get something worthwhile back for Fukudome. It also likely blocks Vitters for 2011 until you can move the stop gap or Aramis. Unless the Cubs are completely out of it in 2011 they are not going to sit a veteran FA that they just signed like a Carlos Pena or resigning of Derrick Lee if they think Vitters is ready in June or earlier. Or what happens if he continues to rake in AA and then rakes in ST? The Cubs aren't likely to decide to start the year with Vitters on the MLB roster before they take a look at him in ST, so they'll have made a decision there already.

Also, this is all Vitters @ 1B that we are talking about. If Vitters future is @ 1B, he becomes a pretty meh prospect anyway. He doesn't need to be *that* good @ 3B to be better than Aramis. Aramis has only been above average @ UZR 1 year in his entire career. He generally doesn't kill you there but if Vitters can get to like a -5 @ 3B he probably should be playing 3B at the MLB level regardless of where Aramis plays. Bringing Vitters up to play 1B for 2/3 of a season (or a whole season, or whatever) doesn't get Vitters ready to play 3B on an MLB roster.

Any kind of stop-gap player we sign for 2011 would *have* to be on a 1 year deal. Given the possibility of Pujols, Fielder and Adrian Gonzalez all being on the market in 2011, I probably don't want Rammy back after 2011, either. I'd want Vitters @ 3B and Pujols/Fielder/Gonzalez @ 1B in 2012, with Soriano probably back in LF. But at that point we'll have had all of 2011 and part time in 2010 to see if Colvin is an everyday type of player in RF, or if we need to get someone else, and we'll likely know if Jackson is ready or not by then also.

In short, moving Soriano to 1B either at the deadline this year or for 2011 (with a full off season and Spring Training to learn 1B, I might add) gives the Cubs the most flexibility. It adds to the versatility and usefulness of Soriano. It allows for us to have a good team on the field on Opening Day in 2011 that can also shift around and accomodate Vitters if his bat demands MLB time like Castro's did as the season progresses, gives Colvin some platoon protection against LHP if he can't handle LHP, we could in theory move Aramis to 1B and have Vitters begin the year on Opening Day @ 3B, but I'm not 100% convinced Cubs brass will think he is ready for that. He'd only be what, 21?

Signing a Lyle Overbay or a Carlos Pena for 1 year just drains our resources and really restricts what Cubs' management can do in what is likely to be another transition year. Pena will probably ask for something close to what Lee asks for, and both might want a more stable 2 or 3 year deal. Either way Vitters probably doesn't see regular action in 2011 if we go that route, and we never even give Colvin a chance to show what he can do on a regular basis.

NORTH10
05-19-2010, 01:48 PM
I just dont think he would be that bad at 1B. I mean the positional adjustments are the way they are for a reason, they didn't just come from nowhere or some other person's intuition. First base is by far the easiest position on the diamond to play. I don't see how taking an average to above average LF and putting him @ 1B when he's already played the infield before would be that much of a liability.

Furthermore, what's the point of signing a stop gap 1B anyway? It likely blocks a player like Colvin unless the Cubs can actually get something worthwhile back for Fukudome. It also likely blocks Vitters for 2011 until you can move the stop gap or Aramis. Unless the Cubs are completely out of it in 2011 they are not going to sit a veteran FA that they just signed like a Carlos Pena or resigning of Derrick Lee if they think Vitters is ready in June or earlier. Or what happens if he continues to rake in AA and then rakes in ST? The Cubs aren't likely to decide to start the year with Vitters on the MLB roster before they take a look at him in ST, so they'll have made a decision there already.

Also, this is all Vitters @ 1B that we are talking about. If Vitters future is @ 1B, he becomes a pretty meh prospect anyway. He doesn't need to be *that* good @ 3B to be better than Aramis. Aramis has only been above average @ UZR 1 year in his entire career. He generally doesn't kill you there but if Vitters can get to like a -5 @ 3B he probably should be playing 3B at the MLB level regardless of where Aramis plays. Bringing Vitters up to play 1B for 2/3 of a season (or a whole season, or whatever) doesn't get Vitters ready to play 3B on an MLB roster.

Any kind of stop-gap player we sign for 2011 would *have* to be on a 1 year deal. Given the possibility of Pujols, Fielder and Adrian Gonzalez all being on the market in 2011, I probably don't want Rammy back after 2011, either. I'd want Vitters @ 3B and Pujols/Fielder/Gonzalez @ 1B in 2012, with Soriano probably back in LF. But at that point we'll have had all of 2011 and part time in 2010 to see if Colvin is an everyday type of player in RF, or if we need to get someone else, and we'll likely know if Jackson is ready or not by then also.

In short, moving Soriano to 1B either at the deadline this year or for 2011 (with a full off season and Spring Training to learn 1B, I might add) gives the Cubs the most flexibility. It adds to the versatility and usefulness of Soriano. It allows for us to have a good team on the field on Opening Day in 2011 that can also shift around and accomodate Vitters if his bat demands MLB time like Castro's did as the season progresses, gives Colvin some platoon protection against LHP if he can't handle LHP, we could in theory move Aramis to 1B and have Vitters begin the year on Opening Day @ 3B, but I'm not 100% convinced Cubs brass will think he is ready for that. He'd only be what, 21?

Signing a Lyle Overbay or a Carlos Pena for 1 year just drains our resources and really restricts what Cubs' management can do in what is likely to be another transition year. Pena will probably ask for something close to what Lee asks for, and both might want a more stable 2 or 3 year deal. Either way Vitters probably doesn't see regular action in 2011 if we go that route, and we never even give Colvin a chance to show what he can do on a regular basis.

I cringe at the thought of Soriano and a throw that is in the dirt...

Jilly Bohnson
05-19-2010, 02:30 PM
1I just dont think he would be that bad at 1B. I mean the positional adjustments are the way they are for a reason, they didn't just come from nowhere or some other person's intuition. First base is by far the easiest position on the diamond to play. I don't see how taking an average to above average LF and putting him @ 1B when he's already played the infield before would be that much of a liability.

Furthermore, what's the point of signing a stop gap 1B anyway? It likely blocks a player like Colvin unless the Cubs can actually get something worthwhile back for Fukudome. It also likely blocks Vitters for 2011 until you can move the stop gap or Aramis. Unless the Cubs are completely out of it in 2011 they are not going to sit a veteran FA that they just signed like a Carlos Pena or resigning of Derrick Lee if they think Vitters is ready in June or earlier. Or what happens if he continues to rake in AA and then rakes in ST? The Cubs aren't likely to decide to start the year with Vitters on the MLB roster before they take a look at him in ST, so they'll have made a decision there already.

2Also, this is all Vitters @ 1B that we are talking about. If Vitters future is @ 1B, he becomes a pretty meh prospect anyway. He doesn't need to be *that* good @ 3B to be better than Aramis. Aramis has only been above average @ UZR 1 year in his entire career. He generally doesn't kill you there but if Vitters can get to like a -5 @ 3B he probably should be playing 3B at the MLB level regardless of where Aramis plays. Bringing Vitters up to play 1B for 2/3 of a season (or a whole season, or whatever) doesn't get Vitters ready to play 3B on an MLB roster.

3Any kind of stop-gap player we sign for 2011 would *have* to be on a 1 year deal. Given the possibility of Pujols, Fielder and Adrian Gonzalez all being on the market in 2011, I probably don't want Rammy back after 2011, either. I'd want Vitters @ 3B and Pujols/Fielder/Gonzalez @ 1B in 2012, with Soriano probably back in LF. But at that point we'll have had all of 2011 and part time in 2010 to see if Colvin is an everyday type of player in RF, or if we need to get someone else, and we'll likely know if Jackson is ready or not by then also.

In short, moving Soriano to 1B either at the deadline this year or for 2011 (with a full off season and Spring Training to learn 1B, I might add) gives the Cubs the most flexibility. It adds to the versatility and usefulness of Soriano. It allows for us to have a good team on the field on Opening Day in 2011 that can also shift around and accomodate Vitters if his bat demands MLB time like Castro's did as the season progresses, gives Colvin some platoon protection against LHP if he can't handle LHP, we could in theory move Aramis to 1B and have Vitters begin the year on Opening Day @ 3B, but I'm not 100% convinced Cubs brass will think he is ready for that. He'd only be what, 21?

Signing a Lyle Overbay or a Carlos Pena for 1 year just drains our resources and really restricts what Cubs' management can do in what is likely to be another transition year. Pena will probably ask for something close to what Lee asks for, and both might want a more stable 2 or 3 year deal. Either way Vitters probably doesn't see regular action in 2011 if we go that route, and we never even give Colvin a chance to show what he can do on a regular basis.

1. That's true, but they're also done in aggregate. Most of the time the 1b are the least athletic guys on the team. Adam Dunn is still atrocious at 1b even though he's not horribly unathletic. I think when you look at the positional adjustments, you have to look at them in context. Like for example, with Ryan Theriot, since his weakness is the bad arm, you'd expect that he'd get most if not all of the +5 runs sliding from SS to 2b, however if you switched him to 3b or CF, places with the same positional adjustment, you'd probably expect him to actually be a below average player. 1b is generally less demanding than LF, but for a guy who's athletic but clutzy, would he produce better there? I have my doubts. Not to mention the possibility of him taking his defensive issues up to bat with him.

2. Vitters if he played 1b ideally it would just be for whatever time he's up next year. It woudn't be a permanent thing, it'd be a Youkilis situation where we move him because our options at 3b are better than our ones at 1b. Although if his defense does necessitate a permanent move, I disagree that it kills his value THAT much. If he's going to be a value at the major league level, it's going to be because he hits the **** out of the ball. That type of player plays anywhere unless they're a Dunn level defender, which Josh most definitely is not.

3. I agree it'd be nice to get a chance to see what Colvin can do. And if we fall out of contention this year he's going to get a good chance to do that. But he's not a prospect that I'm going to go out of my way to work for. Castro's that kind, Vitters is that kind, Jackson if he gets his power swing back is that kind. Colvin is at best probably something like what his career numbers are at right now, .270/.340/.500. Likely still something closer to .270/.330/.450.

And lastly, the badass outfielders are this free agent class. If we want a franchise cornerstone type of OF from free agency, we get Crawford or Werth this winter. This is the winter of the OFer, just like next winter is the winter of the 1b. If we don't want to go the Crawford/Werth route it then becomes easy to find room for Colvin in next year's outfield, if we do then we should probably put out a team that can compete next year, which IMO doesn't include Soriano at 1b. As production wise we're probably better off with a Laroche/Overbay type at 1b and Sori in LF than Colvin in LF and Sori at 1b.

Doogolas
05-19-2010, 02:35 PM
1. That's true, but they're also done in aggregate. Most of the time the 1b are the least athletic guys on the team. Adam Dunn is still atrocious at 1b even though he's not horribly unathletic. I think when you look at the positional adjustments, you have to look at them in context. Like for example, with Ryan Theriot, since his weakness is the bad arm, you'd expect that he'd get most if not all of the +5 runs sliding from SS to 2b, however if you switched him to 3b or CF, places with the same positional adjustment, you'd probably expect him to actually be a below average player. 1b is generally less demanding than LF, but for a guy who's athletic but clutzy, would he produce better there? I have my doubts. Not to mention the possibility of him taking his defensive issues up to bat with him.

2. Vitters if he played 1b ideally it would just be for whatever time he's up next year. It woudn't be a permanent thing, it'd be a Youkilis situation where we move him because our options at 3b are better than our ones at 1b. Although if his defense does necessitate a permanent move, I disagree that it kills his value THAT much. If he's going to be a value at the major league level, it's going to be because he hits the **** out of the ball. That type of player plays anywhere unless they're a Dunn level defender, which Josh most definitely is not.

3. I agree it'd be nice to get a chance to see what Colvin can do. And if we fall out of contention this year he's going to get a good chance to do that. But he's not a prospect that I'm going to go out of my way to work for. Castro's that kind, Vitters is that kind, Jackson if he gets his power swing back is that kind. Colvin is at best probably something like what his career numbers are at right now, .270/.340/.500. Likely still something closer to .270/.330/.450.

And lastly, the badass outfielders are this free agent class. If we want a franchise cornerstone type of OF from free agency, we get Crawford or Werth this winter. This is the winter of the OFer, just like next winter is the winter of the 1b. If we don't want to go the Crawford/Werth route it then becomes easy to find room for Colvin in next year's outfield, if we do then we should probably put out a team that can compete next year, which IMO doesn't include Soriano at 1b. As production wise we're probably better off with a Laroche/Overbay type at 1b and Sori in LF than Colvin in LF and Sori at 1b.

Adam Dunn isn't atrocious. You're basing that on under a year's worth of data after *****ing at me about using a small sample. He already has half the number of innings played at 1B this year as he had all of last year. And he's been just fine there. Not good, but not really bad either. And if last year's sample counts this year's does as well.

And personally, I just don't like the idea of letting Colvin play full time. I don't think it works out. He K's all the time.

Jilly Bohnson
05-19-2010, 02:44 PM
Adam Dunn isn't atrocious. You're basing that on under a year's worth of data after *****ing at me about using a small sample. He already has half the number of innings played at 1B this year as he had all of last year. And he's been just fine there. Not good, but not really bad either. And if last year's sample counts this year's does as well.

There's a difference between using a month and using almost 1800 innings. There's also all the flubs of his that are still shown during Nats highlights. Now could he be doing fine and ESPN is just being mean and showing his few flubs and ignoring his good plays? Yes, that's very possible, ESPN is kind of dickish like that, but more likely is that he's still really bad wherever you put him on the field because unless he has a bat in his hand he's completely uncoordinated..

Yagyu+
05-19-2010, 02:46 PM
Left fielders, on average, are involved in how many plays per game? A first baseman?

Backing up throws, pop outs near the dugout, pick-off attempts, run downs, etc...

I could see Soriano having some difficulty with that all.

And, again, he's already said he's not comfortable with how quickly the ball reaches him in the infield. Sharp liners/ground balls. That's a lot of doubles/triples that could find their way to the corner in right field.

Or maybe not? It'd be dope if he could hold $#!t down.

Str1fe5
05-19-2010, 03:00 PM
1. That's true, but they're also done in aggregate. Most of the time the 1b are the least athletic guys on the team. Adam Dunn is still atrocious at 1b even though he's not horribly unathletic. I think when you look at the positional adjustments, you have to look at them in context. Like for example, with Ryan Theriot, since his weakness is the bad arm, you'd expect that he'd get most if not all of the +5 runs sliding from SS to 2b, however if you switched him to 3b or CF, places with the same positional adjustment, you'd probably expect him to actually be a below average player. 1b is generally less demanding than LF, but for a guy who's athletic but clutzy, would he produce better there? I have my doubts. Not to mention the possibility of him taking his defensive issues up to bat with him.

2. Vitters if he played 1b ideally it would just be for whatever time he's up next year. It woudn't be a permanent thing, it'd be a Youkilis situation where we move him because our options at 3b are better than our ones at 1b. Although if his defense does necessitate a permanent move, I disagree that it kills his value THAT much. If he's going to be a value at the major league level, it's going to be because he hits the **** out of the ball. That type of player plays anywhere unless they're a Dunn level defender, which Josh most definitely is not.

3. I agree it'd be nice to get a chance to see what Colvin can do. And if we fall out of contention this year he's going to get a good chance to do that. But he's not a prospect that I'm going to go out of my way to work for. Castro's that kind, Vitters is that kind, Jackson if he gets his power swing back is that kind. Colvin is at best probably something like what his career numbers are at right now, .270/.340/.500. Likely still something closer to .270/.330/.450.

And lastly, the badass outfielders are this free agent class. If we want a franchise cornerstone type of OF from free agency, we get Crawford or Werth this winter. This is the winter of the OFer, just like next winter is the winter of the 1b. If we don't want to go the Crawford/Werth route it then becomes easy to find room for Colvin in next year's outfield, if we do then we should probably put out a team that can compete next year, which IMO doesn't include Soriano at 1b. As production wise we're probably better off with a Laroche/Overbay type at 1b and Sori in LF than Colvin in LF and Sori at 1b.

If Vitters is a 1B and not a 3B, then he is 1.5 wins worse off the bat. He would need to be an atrocious 3B for him to not lose meaningful value going from 3B to 1B as his permanent position. That said, most agree his defense is still raw despite this being his 4th season being paid to play baseball. Now he's had some injuries, so he certainly could get his fundamentals in check and becomes simply a bad defensive 3B, but plugging him @ 1B for 2011 doesn't make him better @ 3B. Resigning Lee, or signing a guy like Overbay or Pena, blocks Vitters at the MLB level outright for 2011 barring injury or absolute suckitude by Pena/Overbay early on. We could move Aramis to 1B, I guess, and keep Soriano in LF, and I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that, I just dont know if the Cubs/Aramis will be willing to do that going into 2011.

I just don't agree with the general consensus here that Soriano is likely to be both a) a worse defensive 1B than he is a LF and b) so much worse that he is a complete liability. Adam Dunn is a terrible example anyway, because outside of his one-legged 2009, he's been a positive LF his entire career, whereas Adam Dunn might be the worst defensive player to get regular playing time at a defensive position in the DH era. So, yeah. I see him as the definition of a statuesque unathletic outfielder, I don't care that he played QB in college.

I just don't see the point in going and signing a 1B this off season. It had damn well better be a 1 year deal if we do, and then that essentially cancels getting Vitters getting meaningful playing time in 2011. Going out and signing a guy and then benching him 2-3 months into the season just seems stupid.

I agree that Colvin isn't someone that should be worked to get an open position in the outfield. But Vitters certainly is, and signing another veteran over the age of 32 is the opposite of making room for him. Working out Vitters in ST to see how he handles 3B along with Ramirez / Soriano @ 1B gives the Cubs a chance to see if they can start the year with Vitters @ 3B or not, gives Rammy meaningful time at learning the position, and if he can't, Soriano has the bat to play @ 1B without costing us an extra cent. Getting a look at Colvin everyday is just a bonus, because I don't see the Cubs shopping Fukudome or Byrd just so they can go and sign yet another 32 year old in Werth or Crawford, who is a LF, just like Soriano.

Seeing as how unless we sign both Werth and Cliff Lee this off season, no matter what we do the overall talent on the 2011 roster is going to be very similar to the overall talent on the 2010 roster, we might as well not go out and spend money on aging vets and work on being more flexible with respect to working our younger guys into the fold. Trying Soriano out at 1B, at least for the beginning of 2011, seems like a good exercise of doing that. It allows us to at least *see* if Colvin can be an everyday player, and allows us to easily shift Vitters in @ 3B or 1B whenever we decide he's ready.

I know that was long, sorry for ranting, I just think from an organizational standpoint signing a 1B for a year is counter-productive, and then, in that vein, either Soriano or Ramirez is the best option to play 1B in 2011.

Yagyu+
05-19-2010, 03:08 PM
I know that was long, sorry for ranting, I just think from an organizational standpoint signing a 1B for a year is counter-productive, and then, in that vein, either Soriano or Ramirez is the best option to play 1B in 2011.

Make a play for Beltre/stopgap third baseman and move Aramis to first? I like that better than Soriano at first.

Str1fe5
05-19-2010, 03:13 PM
Make a play for Beltre/stopgap third baseman and move Aramis to first? I like that better than Soriano at first.

That still blocks Vitters for all of 2011, would cause us to have to give up talent from our own system in addition to paying for an older guy.

Why are people so afraid of Soriano at 1B? I just don't see how a guy that athletic can't play the easiest position on the diamond for a couple of months if he's given an entire off season to work at it.

Yagyu+
05-19-2010, 03:20 PM
That still blocks Vitters for all of 2011, would cause us to have to give up talent from our own system in addition to paying for an older guy.

Why are people so afraid of Soriano at 1B? I just don't see how a guy that athletic can't play the easiest position on the diamond for a couple of months if he's given an entire off season to work at it.

Because change is scary, Str1fe. Aeris is dead. Meteor has been summoned. And we don't know how to stop it.

You're right about Vitters. Slipped my mind. Also, I like Beltre.

I know he's not made out of popsicle sticks and bubble gum, but I'd be worried that with an increased involvement with Soriano at first, he'd have a greater chance of another injury. Maybe that's crazy talk on my part.

Str1fe5
05-19-2010, 03:33 PM
Because change is scary, Str1fe. Aeris is dead. Meteor has been summoned. And we don't know how to stop it.

You're right about Vitters. Slipped my mind. Also, I like Beltre.

I know he's not made out of popsicle sticks and bubble gum, but I'd be worried that with an increased involvement with Soriano at first, he'd have a greater chance of another injury. Maybe that's crazy talk on my part.

Well, if he can't handle grounders he can't handle grounders. That's one thing. But I can't possibly see how playing 1B and only making lateral dives is a greater risk of injury than having to sprint to catch balls in the outfield, when we're talking about leg injuries.

windycityD
05-19-2010, 04:31 PM
That still blocks Vitters for all of 2011, would cause us to have to give up talent from our own system in addition to paying for an older guy.

Why are people so afraid of Soriano at 1B? I just don't see how a guy that athletic can't play the easiest position on the diamond for a couple of months if he's given an entire off season to work at it.

Years 7-8 of his deal, sure, Soriano at 1b could make sense there.

If we don't re-up Lee, we will sign Dunn to play 1b for two years, and my guess, a mutual option for a third. I'm 99.9% certain of that. Is Dunn going to get too much money? Yep. Forget 2008 and right after the NLDS tank job and that eh off season. We still need a left handed power bat in this line up, as it is now. Dunn is all that in terms of HRs, plus OPS, plus OBP. His avg is a always a yo yo, but who cares? At 1b, he is a doable player and would absolutely wear out that RF fence & atmosphere in Wrigley.

IMO, Vitters is ideally a 2012 player for us up here. There's no law that says he could not get ample time between 1b and 3b then.

Jilly Bohnson
05-19-2010, 04:33 PM
If Vitters is a 1B and not a 3B, then he is 1.5 wins worse off the bat. He would need to be an atrocious 3B for him to not lose meaningful value going from 3B to 1B as his permanent position. That said, most agree his defense is still raw despite this being his 4th season being paid to play baseball. Now he's had some injuries, so he certainly could get his fundamentals in check and becomes simply a bad defensive 3B, but plugging him @ 1B for 2011 doesn't make him better @ 3B. Resigning Lee, or signing a guy like Overbay or Pena, blocks Vitters at the MLB level outright for 2011 barring injury or absolute suckitude by Pena/Overbay early on. We could move Aramis to 1B, I guess, and keep Soriano in LF, and I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that, I just dont know if the Cubs/Aramis will be willing to do that going into 2011.

I just don't agree with the general consensus here that Soriano is likely to be both a) a worse defensive 1B than he is a LF and b) so much worse that he is a complete liability. Adam Dunn is a terrible example anyway, because outside of his one-legged 2009, he's been a positive LF his entire career, whereas Adam Dunn might be the worst defensive player to get regular playing time at a defensive position in the DH era. So, yeah. I see him as the definition of a statuesque unathletic outfielder, I don't care that he played QB in college.

I just don't see the point in going and signing a 1B this off season. It had damn well better be a 1 year deal if we do, and then that essentially cancels getting Vitters getting meaningful playing time in 2011. Going out and signing a guy and then benching him 2-3 months into the season just seems stupid.

I agree that Colvin isn't someone that should be worked to get an open position in the outfield. But Vitters certainly is, and signing another veteran over the age of 32 is the opposite of making room for him. Working out Vitters in ST to see how he handles 3B along with Ramirez / Soriano @ 1B gives the Cubs a chance to see if they can start the year with Vitters @ 3B or not, gives Rammy meaningful time at learning the position, and if he can't, Soriano has the bat to play @ 1B without costing us an extra cent. Getting a look at Colvin everyday is just a bonus, because I don't see the Cubs shopping Fukudome or Byrd just so they can go and sign yet another 32 year old in Werth or Crawford, who is a LF, just like Soriano.

Seeing as how unless we sign both Werth and Cliff Lee this off season, no matter what we do the overall talent on the 2011 roster is going to be very similar to the overall talent on the 2010 roster, we might as well not go out and spend money on aging vets and work on being more flexible with respect to working our younger guys into the fold. Trying Soriano out at 1B, at least for the beginning of 2011, seems like a good exercise of doing that. It allows us to at least *see* if Colvin can be an everyday player, and allows us to easily shift Vitters in @ 3B or 1B whenever we decide he's ready.

I know that was long, sorry for ranting, I just think from an organizational standpoint signing a 1B for a year is counter-productive, and then, in that vein, either Soriano or Ramirez is the best option to play 1B in 2011.

Where Vitters plays is irrelevant, assuming some sort of defensive continuity(IE, he's a bad 3b but a good 1b roughly on the level of the position adjustment). WAR only matters for the market, not on an intra-team basis. Vitters and Aramis at 1b and 3b doesn't matter unless there's a big difference one way or the other. Most likely, both are below average but not bad at 3b and above average but not great at 1b, there's nothing lost by having Vitters at 1b except a few months of reps at 3b.

See, I don't see a stopgap 1b holding Vitters back. The whole point of a stopgap is that they're mediocre at best. An Overbay or a Laroche is a guy who you don't feel bad about benching and/or who can easily be traded. Carlos Pena is pretty damn good, if he's our 1b next year then we won't be getting Fielder/Agon, as Pena's good enough to demand multiple years(unless he continues hitting .191).

And I do think Soriano would be a wreck at 1b, particularly early on. I mean he'd probably be pretty good defensively with some time, but you're talking having him there for only a few months, in that short amount of time he'd probably suck out loud.


Because change is scary, Str1fe. Aeris is dead. Meteor has been summoned. And we don't know how to stop it.

You're right about Vitters. Slipped my mind. Also, I like Beltre.

I know he's not made out of popsicle sticks and bubble gum, but I'd be worried that with an increased involvement with Soriano at first, he'd have a greater chance of another injury. Maybe that's crazy talk on my part.

:laugh2:

Str1fe5
05-19-2010, 06:14 PM
Years 7-8 of his deal, sure, Soriano at 1b could make sense there.

If we don't re-up Lee, we will sign Dunn to play 1b for two years, and my guess, a mutual option for a third. I'm 99.9% certain of that. Is Dunn going to get too much money? Yep. Forget 2008 and right after the NLDS tank job and that eh off season. We still need a left handed power bat in this line up, as it is now. Dunn is all that in terms of HRs, plus OPS, plus OBP. His avg is a always a yo yo, but who cares? At 1b, he is a doable player and would absolutely wear out that RF fence & atmosphere in Wrigley.

IMO, Vitters is ideally a 2012 player for us up here. There's no law that says he could not get ample time between 1b and 3b then.


Where Vitters plays is irrelevant, assuming some sort of defensive continuity(IE, he's a bad 3b but a good 1b roughly on the level of the position adjustment). WAR only matters for the market, not on an intra-team basis. Vitters and Aramis at 1b and 3b doesn't matter unless there's a big difference one way or the other. Most likely, both are below average but not bad at 3b and above average but not great at 1b, there's nothing lost by having Vitters at 1b except a few months of reps at 3b.

See, I don't see a stopgap 1b holding Vitters back. The whole point of a stopgap is that they're mediocre at best. An Overbay or a Laroche is a guy who you don't feel bad about benching and/or who can easily be traded. Carlos Pena is pretty damn good, if he's our 1b next year then we won't be getting Fielder/Agon, as Pena's good enough to demand multiple years(unless he continues hitting .191).

And I do think Soriano would be a wreck at 1b, particularly early on. I mean he'd probably be pretty good defensively with some time, but you're talking having him there for only a few months, in that short amount of time he'd probably suck out loud.



:laugh2:

The only *stop gap* in that mold available is Overbay, and I think he'll be more expensive than we should spend on a guy for 2-3 months to give us blah production. If you absolutely loathe the idea of Soriano at 1B, okay, I'm clearly the only one thinks he can handle the position. But I'd rather have Tracy/Nady/Baker/Fontenot/Aramis, hell, even Colvin @ 1B, than spend money outside of the organization to keep a seat warm @ 1B, when all that guy can do is play 1B. He's Daryle Ward. That's paying Daryle Ward starter money. That's just terrible.

As far as Adam Dunn, that's just as dumb as signing Lee or Pena. A 30 something guy who blocks Vitters for the entirety of 2011 with Aramis manning 3B, and who likely prices us right out of going after the big 1B class of 2011.

My bigger point is that I want to go in house for 1B to start 2011. I like Soriano @ 1B cuz I think he can handle it and I think Colvin is the better bat of any other in house option.

Jilly Bohnson
05-19-2010, 07:13 PM
The only *stop gap* in that mold available is Overbay, and I think he'll be more expensive than we should spend on a guy for 2-3 months to give us blah production. If you absolutely loathe the idea of Soriano at 1B, okay, I'm clearly the only one thinks he can handle the position. But I'd rather have Tracy/Nady/Baker/Fontenot/Aramis, hell, even Colvin @ 1B, than spend money outside of the organization to keep a seat warm @ 1B, when all that guy can do is play 1B. He's Daryle Ward. That's paying Daryle Ward starter money. That's just terrible.

As far as Adam Dunn, that's just as dumb as signing Lee or Pena. A 30 something guy who blocks Vitters for the entirety of 2011 with Aramis manning 3B, and who likely prices us right out of going after the big 1B class of 2011.

My bigger point is that I want to go in house for 1B to start 2011. I like Soriano @ 1B cuz I think he can handle it and I think Colvin is the better bat of any other in house option.

It's not even a sure thing Vitters will be ready for more than a cup of coffee. He still has very real defense and plate discipline problems. It's no lock that he'll be ready for next year, so I don't think we should plan our season around him coming up.

And a Nady or a Tracy or something would be fine at 1b. Could even go with Branyan. There's all sorts of options for guys that can give you nearly average 1b production. I'm not saying "We need player x at 1b." I just want a stopgap 1b, and by definition that makes him someone that's expendable. And I don't get the "and that's paying Daryl Ward starter money" thing. What does overpaying a guy have anything to do with what I've said?

And Soriano's defense at 1b is probably just an agree to disagree thing.

Str1fe5
05-19-2010, 09:51 PM
It's not even a sure thing Vitters will be ready for more than a cup of coffee. He still has very real defense and plate discipline problems. It's no lock that he'll be ready for next year, so I don't think we should plan our season around him coming up.

And a Nady or a Tracy or something would be fine at 1b. Could even go with Branyan. There's all sorts of options for guys that can give you nearly average 1b production. I'm not saying "We need player x at 1b." I just want a stopgap 1b, and by definition that makes him someone that's expendable. And I don't get the "and that's paying Daryl Ward starter money" thing. What does overpaying a guy have anything to do with what I've said?

And Soriano's defense at 1b is probably just an agree to disagree thing.

Because signing a guy like Overbay is almost assured that we would overpay for him unless he played 1B all year.

Jilly Bohnson
05-19-2010, 10:23 PM
Because signing a guy like Overbay is almost assured that we would overpay for him unless he played 1B all year.

Really? Because the past two offseasons most mediocre or less players have been greatly underpaid.

duce5858
05-19-2010, 11:29 PM
The problem with trading Lee is, we would get very little in return. Every GM in baseball knows that when a team is attempting to move a FA that you have no intention in re signing, they don't have to offer much at all. They take the low ball offers, or they lose him to FA'cy.

Im betting the Red Sox would love to have him, same as the Giants...

turnaround3
05-19-2010, 11:40 PM
:laugh2:

Soriano isn't going to play 1st base. Not this year, not next year, not ever.