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View Full Version : Big Z is now the long-man??



ty_smitty21
05-18-2010, 12:07 AM
Lou's post-game comments tonight: "Let's be honest, this hasn't worked out like we all hoped it would." He is now saying our 18 million dollar a year man is a long-reliever.

First of all.... WHAT?

Second of all... big Z has only been bad in one game that really mattered out of the pen. He's been decent for the most part. And if Lou were to look around at the bullpen, he'd realize that Z could give up a run in every outing, and STILL be the best option from the right side in the pen.

Unless a trade is coming soon... which is doubtful in mid May.... this is absolutely absurd.

The only good that can possibly come of this: this may make Z waive his no-trade clause.

WOwolfOL
05-18-2010, 12:09 AM
No role has worked for Z. He has been awful, giving up a ton of hits.

CubbieSteve
05-18-2010, 12:10 AM
It hasn't worked. It's stupid. Zambrano is a starting pitcher. Use him as such.

Yagyu+
05-18-2010, 12:12 AM
Unless a trade is coming soon... which is doubtful in mid May.... this is absolutely absurd.

The only good that can possibly come of this: this may make Z waive his no-trade clause.

And his trade value will now be as that of a reliever with a whale of contract.

FUBAR

Doogolas
05-18-2010, 12:12 AM
Z is a good starting pitcher. Put him in that role and let him pitch. He'll even out. Always does.

windycityD
05-18-2010, 12:16 AM
I'm now 100% in this is wackadoo absurd camp, if not an outright attempt at yes, pissing Z off enough to make him start thinking about greener pastures elsewhere. Once again: Boston & Bucholz would be fine by me. I'd rather bring in a guy we could use & have Z in a better situation than drag out this pointless powder keg drama further.

You cannot move Z now. You can probably move him a month from now, assuming he's not relegated to mowing the outfield by then.

Doogolas
05-18-2010, 12:33 AM
OK, so I was reading on ANC on their Cashner thread. Just to see what people were saying if Rammy's homer was talked about. Well, a few down after some HR posts was this gem:


I think Lou tried to punch Dibble and Dibble cleaned his clock. I'd love to see Z thrown down with Lou if Lou wasn't so old that he'd instantly die.

croce_99
05-18-2010, 01:43 AM
our starting 5 have been great. I was pissed when Z was sent to the bullpen, but you can't have a 6 man rotation. That just doesn't work.

CrazyEyes,Fatty,Sloth,Demp,Raaaaandy have all pitched great. I think we all can agree it's only a matter of time before Fatty slows down. Then maybe he'll get thrown in the pen and Z can take his spot.

But right now, there's no reason to mess with the starting group. They're all pitching great.

jiggin
05-18-2010, 01:57 AM
...And fourth, the Cubs must see what executives on other teams see -- namely, that "this guy hasn't pitched like a top-of-the-rotation starter for two years," pointed out one of the executives.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings100513

Its Jayson Stark so take it with a grain of salt but the Cubs obviously feel the same way about him, trying to find some way to put him in a position to succeed or at least get it going again. So far...no love.

Matchstckman
05-18-2010, 09:04 AM
Jayson Stark and these "Executives" are DoucheTards. Zambrano was well above average in 2009 and had his best year in quite a few years. He started slow this year, but in no way warranted being sent to the bullpen. Now to set him up as a long man or a 6th starter or whatever the **** this plan is is ********.

poodski
05-18-2010, 09:11 AM
I dont care I still support sending Z to the pen.

cowboydoc45
05-18-2010, 09:18 AM
I'm now 100% in this is wackadoo absurd camp, if not an outright attempt at yes, pissing Z off enough to make him start thinking about greener pastures elsewhere. Once again: Boston & Bucholz would be fine by me. I'd rather bring in a guy we could use & have Z in a better situation than drag out this pointless powder keg drama further.

You cannot move Z now. You can probably move him a month from now, assuming he's not relegated to mowing the outfield by then.

I don't know that his value was really ever high enough to get much in trade, probably nothing more than a couple of mid specs or "scrappy" players... the move to the pen is almost as bad as suspending Bradley at the end of last season when it comes to value.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings100513

Its Jayson Stark so take it with a grain of salt but the Cubs obviously feel the same way about him, trying to find some way to put him in a position to succeed or at least get it going again. So far...no love.

This... honestly he hasn't pitched like and ace since he got that fat deal... :rolleyes:


I dont care I still support sending Z to the pen.

I think it was the right move, and had to be a hard call, but I only support it if it was indeed because the other pitchers are outpitching him, and they needed the support from the right in the pen. Lets just hope we didn't shoot ourselves in the foot if we need him in the rotation...

Yagyu+
05-18-2010, 09:21 AM
I dont care I still support sending Z to the pen.

Did you happen to catch Lou's post game comments regarding Zambrano?

I mean, actually hear them?

poodski
05-18-2010, 09:27 AM
Did you happen to catch Lou's post game comments regarding Zambrano?

I mean, actually hear them?

No I didnt actually hear what Lou had to say.

While I think that Carlos Zambrano is better off as a starting pitching I think the current Chicago Cubs are better with Zambrano in the bullpen.

Whats best for the individual is not always best for the team. Thats how I feel. Call me John Nash if you must.

BDawk4Prez
05-18-2010, 09:28 AM
It hasn't worked. It's stupid. Zambrano is a starting pitcher. Use him as such.


Z is a good starting pitcher. Put him in that role and let him pitch. He'll even out. Always does.

This

Yagyu+
05-18-2010, 09:35 AM
No I didnt actually hear what Lou had to say.

While I think that Carlos Zambrano is better off as a starting pitching I think the current Chicago Cubs are better with Zambrano in the bullpen.

Whats best for the individual is not always best for the team. Thats how I feel. Call me John Nash if you must.

Worth it if you can find an audio clip somewhere.

When asked where Zambrano was last night:

"Uhhh... Uhhh... Well... You see... Thing is... Uhhh..."

Po, he has no idea what to do with Carlos.

windycityD
05-18-2010, 09:40 AM
I don't know that his value was really ever high enough to get much in trade, probably nothing more than a couple of mid specs or "scrappy" players... the move to the pen is almost as bad as suspending Bradley at the end of last season when it comes to value.



This... honestly he hasn't pitched like and ace since he got that fat deal... :rolleyes:



I think it was the right move, and had to be a hard call, but I only support it if it was indeed because the other pitchers are outpitching him, and they needed the support from the right in the pen. Lets just hope we didn't shoot ourselves in the foot if we need him in the rotation...

Three starting pitchers will be sought after hardcore by other GMs come late June/ July: Oswalt, Cliff Lee, & Gorzo, the budget pick up (who I hope we do not deal). Zambrano could have trade value then b/c of three factors:

1) his body of work as a starter
2) a lack of innings piled up by then
3) us eating money on the back end of the deal

You're talking about paying for him in full only in 2011 and paying next to nothing for him in 2012 and/ or the potential vesting year in 13. Add in the fact that there are going to be injuries to some contenders starting staffs or that some teams that have pretty weak rotations after their 1 & 2, but are still hanging in there & will want to bolster up, and I could not disagree more that Z's value would be low. Z does not need to be a front line starter elsewhere.

gooner
05-18-2010, 09:46 AM
I think they are hiding the fact that Z has dead arm or arm fatigue or something like that. or maybe he has been sleeping on it wrong again, or typing on it wrong again. or maybe he has been wanking too often. whatever it is, I suspect he is nursing a borderline injury that comes with overuse, and they are trying to manage him back to health.

Yagyu+
05-18-2010, 09:51 AM
Three starting pitchers will be sought after hardcore by other GMs come late June/ July: Oswalt, Cliff Lee, & Gorzo, the budget pick up (who I hope we do not deal). Zambrano could have trade value then b/c of three factors:

1) his body of work as a starter
2) a lack of innings piled up by then
3) us eating money on the back end of the deal

You're talking about paying for him in full only in 2011 and paying next to nothing for him in 2012 and/ or the potential vesting year in 13. Add in the fact that there are going to be injuries to some contenders starting staffs or that some teams that have pretty weak rotations after their 1 & 2, but are still hanging in there & will want to bolster up, and I could not disagree more that Z's value would be low. Z does not need to be a front line starter elsewhere.

I completely agree with your reasoning, but I feel like demand and value might not be as closely related in this case. I don't doubt that there would be teams interested in Carlos should a trade be in his future. But unless it's a bidding war, having tabbed him as a reliever, his value has changed. We can argue that it shouldn't have, but I don't think we'll be dealing from a position of strength in respect to Zambrano. I guess I'm viewing it like when you drive a new car off the lot and it takes a 30% in resale price. Though I'd much rather you be right.

poodski
05-18-2010, 10:07 AM
I think they are hiding the fact that Z has dead arm or arm fatigue or something like that. or maybe he has been sleeping on it wrong again, or typing on it wrong again. or maybe he has been wanking too often. whatever it is, I suspect he is nursing a borderline injury that comes with overuse, and they are trying to manage him back to health.

I think thats very possible. His FB velocity is down a bit still, you would think it would have come up with going to the pen but it really hasn't.

It looks like his fastest pitch this year is around 94.

scrubs101
05-18-2010, 10:35 AM
I think they are hiding the fact that Z has dead arm or arm fatigue or something like that. or maybe he has been sleeping on it wrong again, or typing on it wrong again. or maybe he has been wanking too often. whatever it is, I suspect he is nursing a borderline injury that comes with overuse, and they are trying to manage him back to health.

That doesn't sound like the Cubs at all and makes no sense. Take it back.

man man
05-18-2010, 10:44 AM
I think they are hiding the fact that Z has dead arm or arm fatigue or something like that. or maybe he has been sleeping on it wrong again, or typing on it wrong again. or maybe he has been wanking too often. whatever it is, I suspect he is nursing a borderline injury that comes with overuse, and they are trying to manage him back to health.

yep, my thoughts exactly. although, it seems silly to go this far if this is the case, just put him on the shelf for a while if he needs to heal.

redwhitenblue
05-18-2010, 12:22 PM
Worth it if you can find an audio clip somewhere.

When asked where Zambrano was last night:

"Uhhh... Uhhh... Well... You see... Thing is... Uhhh..."

Po, he has no idea what to do with Carlos.
As compared to when he's positive about something and sounds exactly, the, same.



Does anyone else just think this is the move to lengthen Z for his move to the starting rotation again? Because I kind of do. The SP in general hasn't been as good in May, nor has Z's work in the BP been that impressive.

scrubs101
05-18-2010, 01:38 PM
As compared to when he's positive about something and sounds exactly, the, same.



Does anyone else just think this is the move to lengthen Z for his move to the starting rotation again? Because I kind of do. The SP in general hasn't been as good in May, nor has Z's work in the BP been that impressive.

I thought that was pretty obvious. It's just who goes now Gorz or Silva?

Yagyu+
05-18-2010, 01:50 PM
As compared to when he's positive about something and sounds exactly, the, same.



Does anyone else just think this is the move to lengthen Z for his move to the starting rotation again? Because I kind of do. The SP in general hasn't been as good in May, nor has Z's work in the BP been that impressive.

Haha. It was a bit more exasperated. The pauses were longer than usual. But I dig what you're getting at.

Mell413
05-18-2010, 03:47 PM
I think this is a move to get Z ready for the rotation again. I wouldn't be opposed to Silva in the bullpen since he throws strikes. Maybe Gorz or Silva is being dealt for a reliever or a pitcher is hurt.

Ryno1984
05-18-2010, 05:49 PM
I was listening to espn1000 today and they also stated this was to lengthen him out for the starting rotation again as the bullpen option hasn't worked out.

thisizdayear
05-18-2010, 06:36 PM
i just got a text from espn that said lou says big Z is goin back to the rotation????

thisizdayear
05-18-2010, 06:37 PM
okay someone posted it. i'm not dreaming

WrigleyWonder
05-18-2010, 06:37 PM
He's pitching 3 more times in long relief in preparation to move back into the rotation.

Str1fe5
05-18-2010, 06:41 PM
Moving Zambrano to the pen was ******** from the start. It assumed one of two things:

a) Zambrano and Silva's relative ability as a SP were very close, close enough that Zambrano's better overall stuff would translate to better BP performance without sacrificing too much value as a SP in the rotation to Silva. Essentially that SP Silva = ish to SP Zambrano but RP Zambrano >>> RP Silva.

OR

b) That Carlos Silva is a straight up better pitcher than Carlos Zambrano, and the normal logic of BP/SP roles would still follow (always put the better pitcher in the rotation because he will pitch anywhere from twice to three times as many innings as the reliever)

I ran the math a while ago, and for the Silva SP // Zambrano RP combination to give up as many if not fewer ER as the Zambrano SP // Silva RP combination, Zambrano, you would need a 4.00 ERA over 180 IP // 2.50 ERA over 75 IP split (compared to say, a 3.5 ERA by Z @ SP and a 3.75 ERA @ RP by Silva).

The Cubs were banking that Z's SP numbers were probably closer to the 4.00 range anyway and that Silva would probably be a lot farther from 2.5 or 3.75 out of hte pen. Yet they somehow thought that Silva would be a lot closer to that 4.00 ERA in that same universe. Essentially they thought that the production on a per batter faced level for Silva would be no different between the bullpen and the rotation, whereas there would be a larger gap between Z as a SP and RP. That was the reasoning they gave.

Well, common sense has proven to hold more water than specific scouting, since the announcement of the switch, Z has had a 6.23 ERA in 8.2 IP and Silva has had a 4.60 ERA in 4 starts.

Its highly likely that Zambrano would have gotten better, as he was going through an acclimation period and really only had one poor outing. But we didn't see any increased velocity from Z, there were concerns about him pitching back to back days. And let's be realistic here, folks, the chances of Carlos Silva posting a sub 4 ERA over the course of an entire year are very slim. Granted, Z hasn't posted an ERA close to his career 3.55 mark since 2006, either, but he's also posted a sub 4 ERA season every single season since 2002. So the chances are overwhelming that Carlos Zambrano is a noticeably better pitcher than Carlos Silva, and thus the fact that Z is most likely returning to the rotation is a good thing.