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View Full Version : How Valid is the "Legacy" Argument?



Tony_Starks
05-17-2010, 01:11 PM
We hear it all the time. So and so has to go to a certain team to "cement his legacy." Or so and so can't go to a certain team because he'll always be in a certain legends shadow and he has to build his own "legacy." Do you guys buy this?

I look at it as media hype. I didn't see KG and Ray Allen scared to come to Boston because of the history there. I don't see Kobe leaving LA to get out of Magic, Kareem, and Jerry West shadow, and so on....

I just bring it up because with the impending action packed summer it seems like people are seriously seriously using this as one of the main reasons certain players will or will not go to a team...

RipVW
05-17-2010, 01:19 PM
I think its overblown. Some guys may shy away from it but its also true that great players like adding to the tradition of a franchise.

tredigs
05-17-2010, 01:28 PM
I assume you're alluding to Lebron potentially going to the Bulls, and I do think that it's foolish to think that a player will live in another's shadow who play in different generations, simply for the fact that they're playing in the same city. You can say that Kobe will always live in MJ's shadow, but that is because they have obvious similarities, Kobe modeled his game after the guy, and they even played against each other for a few years. Where you play doesn't affect this. The bottom line is that success speaks louder than anything, and if Lebron can go into Chicago and help make them champions, then his own legacy in Chicago will be forged; and any hoop la bs that surrounds him living in MJ's shadow would start to simmer.

The ironic part is that going to Chicago - which offers him the best opportunity to win a ring next season imo - is the best option to allow himself to be removed from Jordan/Magic's shadow and stand on his own.

RaiderLakersA's
05-17-2010, 01:32 PM
I don't buy into the "legacy" argument. We all know fans tend to have a selective memory when it comes to their accomplishments and failings.

RipVW
05-17-2010, 01:35 PM
I assume you're alluding to Lebron potentially going to the Bulls, and I do think that it's foolish to think that a player will live in another's shadow who play in different generations, simply for the fact that they're playing in the same city. You can say that Kobe will always live in MJ's shadow, but that is because they have obvious similarities, Kobe modeled his game after the guy, and they even played against each other for a few years. Where you play doesn't affect this. The bottom line is that success speaks louder than anything, and if Lebron can go into Chicago and help make them champions, then his own legacy in Chicago will be forged; and any hoop la bs that surrounds him living in MJ's shadow would start to simmer.

The ironic part is that going to Chicago - which offers him the best opportunity to win a ring next season imo - is the best option to allow himself to be removed from Jordan/Magic's shadow and stand on his own.

Thats a good point.

zadora5
05-17-2010, 01:38 PM
lol

BradyIsTheMan12
05-17-2010, 01:55 PM
It's important if you have been wearing number 23 your entire career and then go to Chicago. I don't think it will cause Lebron to play worse but it will hang on him until he wins a championship; that is if he goes there.

JordansBulls
05-17-2010, 01:58 PM
I assume you're alluding to Lebron potentially going to the Bulls, and I do think that it's foolish to think that a player will live in another's shadow who play in different generations, simply for the fact that they're playing in the same city. You can say that Kobe will always live in MJ's shadow, but that is because they have obvious similarities, Kobe modeled his game after the guy, and they even played against each other for a few years. Where you play doesn't affect this. The bottom line is that success speaks louder than anything, and if Lebron can go into Chicago and help make them champions, then his own legacy in Chicago will be forged; and any hoop la bs that surrounds him living in MJ's shadow would start to simmer.

The ironic part is that going to Chicago - which offers him the best opportunity to win a ring next season imo - is the best option to allow himself to be removed from Jordan/Magic's shadow and stand on his own.

Well think of Bird and Russell. Russell already had his legacy cemented in Boston and 10+ years later Bird came and now Bird made his legacy. MJ left Chicago in 1998 and 10+ years later if Bron comes then he will make his own legacy just like Bird did in Boston after Russell.

ackar
05-17-2010, 01:59 PM
Not that important if you keep trying to be the next MJ, Bird or Magic you set yourself up for failure. Sure honor their tradition but forge your own legacy win a championship in whatever city you in and people we say you are a winner.

tredigs
05-17-2010, 02:05 PM
Well think of Bird and Russell. Russell already had his legacy cemented in Boston and 10+ years later Bird came and now Bird made his legacy. MJ left Chicago in 1998 and 10+ years later if Bron comes then he will make his own legacy just like Bird did in Boston after Russell.

Definitely, that's my point. Nothing wrong with standing on the shoulders of greatness.

Tony_Starks
05-17-2010, 02:12 PM
Yeah I don't really buy into it because basically the media tries to put the whole legacy perception out there but I think the real basketball purist judge by wins and accomplishments.

Like if Kevin Durant was able to pull off three rings in OKC and Lebron was to get one ring in say New York, do you really mean to tell me that Lebrons "legacy" will be more impressive just on the strength of the city alone? Im not feelin that one.

Or the idea that Kobe has to get more than 6 rings to be better than Jordan. If he does there will still be media haters that will say he's still not better or his rings with Shaq don't count or whatever... Its like there's no real criteria for greatness.

I look at it like this MJ is MJ, Kobe's got his own lane, as does Lebron, as does Wade, and so and so on... at the end of the day they'll all be HOF'ers so why not just enjoy them for the individual players they are?

Draco
05-17-2010, 02:42 PM
It's not Jordan's shadow that might affect Lebron's legacy, it's leaving Cleveland.

tangent12
05-17-2010, 02:55 PM
I assume you're alluding to Lebron potentially going to the Bulls, and I do think that it's foolish to think that a player will live in another's shadow who play in different generations, simply for the fact that they're playing in the same city. You can say that Kobe will always live in MJ's shadow, but that is because they have obvious similarities, Kobe modeled his game after the guy, and they even played against each other for a few years. Where you play doesn't affect this. The bottom line is that success speaks louder than anything, and if Lebron can go into Chicago and help make them champions, then his own legacy in Chicago will be forged; and any hoop la bs that surrounds him living in MJ's shadow would start to simmer.

The ironic part is that going to Chicago - which offers him the best opportunity to win a ring next season imo - is the best option to allow himself to be removed from Jordan/Magic's shadow and stand on his own.

Excellent point.

J-Relo
05-17-2010, 02:56 PM
Kobe has made his own shadow

abe_froman
05-17-2010, 03:18 PM
Yeah I don't really buy into it because basically the media tries to put the whole legacy perception out there but I think the real basketball purist judge by wins and accomplishments.

Like if Kevin Durant was able to pull off three rings in OKC and Lebron was to get one ring in say New York, do you really mean to tell me that Lebrons "legacy" will be more impressive just on the strength of the city alone? Im not feelin that one.

Or the idea that Kobe has to get more than 6 rings to be better than Jordan. If he does there will still be media haters that will say he's still not better or his rings with Shaq don't count or whatever... Its like there's no real criteria for greatness.

I look at it like this MJ is MJ, Kobe's got his own lane, as does Lebron, as does Wade, and so and so on... at the end of the day they'll all be HOF'ers so why not just enjoy them for the individual players they are?
its mostly driven by fan hype(not media),who dont want to see a certain guy go to a certain place

but you are right especially with the kd scenario.it is a very flimsy "grasping" argument and might even have the opposite effect than what is said(the challenge might be attractive),but it really has no.i mean for the argument to be true shaq must have stayed in orl instead of going to the lakers

Immoknight
05-17-2010, 03:57 PM
Let me get this straight, you create this thread and the only people who respond to this are Bulls fans. I mean... do I even have to say anything or maybe the only people who think the way you do are... wait for it, bulls fans? WOW, crazy coincidence or maybe maybe, just maybe I am right.

Guess I will leave you to your thread about the legacy of someone who defined a generation against someone part of that generation. Yep, enjoy.

Draco
05-17-2010, 03:59 PM
Let me get this straight, you create this thread and the only people who respond to this are Bulls fans. I mean... do I even have to say anything or maybe the only people who think the way you do are... wait for it, bulls fans? WOW, crazy coincidence or maybe maybe, just maybe I am right.

Guess I will leave you to your thread about the legacy of someone who defined a generation against someone part of that generation. Yep, enjoy.

There's still room on the bandwagon if you're feeling left out.

Immoknight
05-17-2010, 04:05 PM
There's still room on the bandwagon if you're feeling left out.

Why would I jump on something that will just get abandoned on July 8th. I am sorry to tell you that legacy is merely a part of why he wouldn't sign with the Bulls. I know, I know, how dare I rain on your parade but I don't see it happening. Not that it couldn't, but I don't see it. If it did, more power to you but you prance around forums, like you already signed him.

One thing I want to point out though. The 'legacy' argument seems to be strong enough to merit its own thread. Not only that but its a common topic when teams are discussing James going to the Bulls. Clearly it's not just media but also fans. Now if you want to think about a market as an entity... just how much claim does Jordan still have to the Bulls and you know, making them a legit team.

I will not address other reasons why Lebron wont come because this thread is about legacy. Unlike the 'classy' bulls fans that jump into the Knick forum preaching 'superiority", I actually stick to the forum thread. Try it sometime.

RaiderLakersA's
05-17-2010, 04:10 PM
Kobe has made his own shadow

I think when Kobe finally cast off the "next Jordan" hype, whether self-created or not, he became free to be his own man.

I also noticed that immediately after the Cleveland loss, unbiased sports experts were increasingly referencing Kobe with respect to the modern era great champions. Once upon a time it was Jordan, Magic and Bird, as the torch bearers. The end. Period. (Shaq or Duncan never came up, which I thought was odd.) But all last week I kept hearing Jordan, Magic, Bird and Kobe from the talking heads, especially with respect to LeBron achieving at the next level. An interesting development.

...Interesting, because I thought for sure that Kobe would have to win 5-6 titles before anyone West of, oh, Arizona would even utter his name in that esteemed company.

Draco
05-17-2010, 04:13 PM
Why would I jump on something that will just get abandoned on July 8th. I am sorry to tell you that legacy is merely a part of why he wouldn't sign with the Bulls. I know, I know, how dare I rain on your parade but I don't see it happening. Not that it couldn't, but I don't see it. If it did, more power to you but you prance around forums, like you already signed him.

One thing I want to point out though. The 'legacy' argument seems to be strong enough to merit its own thread. Not only that but its a common topic when teams are discussing James going to the Bulls. Clearly it's not just media but also fans. Now if you want to think about a market as an entity... just how much claim does Jordan still have to the Bulls and you know, making them a legit team.

I will not address other reasons why Lebron wont come because this thread is about legacy. Unlike the 'classy' bulls fans that jump into the Knick forum preaching 'superiority", I actually stick to the forum thread. Try it sometime.

I'll reserve a spot for you on the bandwagon in case you change your mind after July 8th ;)

Immoknight
05-17-2010, 04:16 PM
I'll reserve a spot for you on the bandwagon in case you change your mind after July 8th ;)

All but one fanbase will be disappointed, this is the only guarentee of July 8th. I love my Knicks regardless of Lebron. I will gladly root for whoever joins our squad because we still have the rooster, "DANILLLLLLLLLLLLO GALLLLLLLINARIIIIIIIII" who has more range then any shooter on the Bulls, correct? :)

DCB/LAL
05-17-2010, 04:23 PM
Truth about this is NO MATTER where Lebrons goes eventually he will fall under MJ's shadow if he isn't already. And it'll be the same for any great player who challenges MJ's throne as the GOAT. It doesn't matter where he plays the media will always get the point across to the nation whether he's in Chicago or somewhere else.

Immoknight
05-17-2010, 04:30 PM
Truth about this is NO MATTER where Lebrons goes eventually he will fall under MJ's shadow if he isn't already. And it'll be the same for any great player who challenges MJ's throne as the GOAT. It doesn't matter where he plays the media will always get the point across to the nation whether he's in Chicago or somewhere else.

Must be nice to be so misinformed... Lebron James wore what number before switching... wait for it, no 23. What team you want him to play for ... bzzt. Chicago Bulls. What player wearing former number made his name on that team... bzzt. Michael Jordan. What statue would Lebron have to look at every time he goes to arena... bzzt. Michael Jordans. You are like a child staring into the sun, feeling pain and looking away but then saying, "I am looking away because I saw something shiny, not because of the sun." I mean, just admit the comparisons would be dramatic if the 'king' went to try and take on the 'GOAT throne'.

Sorry, you lose this game but thanks for playing. One thing you can be sure, if he went to the Knicks, the comparisons wouldn't be nearly as drastic. He would be Lebron James of the New York Knickerbockers. That would be all, if he won a title, it wouldn't be, 1 title vs the 6 Michael Jordan got as would be with Chicago. It would be the first title in 30+ years for the Knicks.

You can deny the HUGE PURPLE elephant in the room for so long Bulls fans but give me a break. No matter what, Lebron would be second in your hearts if he became a bull. If you deny that, you deny what makes your team relevant.

DCB/LAL
05-17-2010, 04:39 PM
Must be nice to be so misinformed... Lebron James wore what number before switching... wait for it, no 23. What team you want him to play for ... bzzt. Chicago Bulls. What player wearing former number made his name on that team... bzzt. Michael Jordan. What statue would Lebron have to look at every time he goes to arena... bzzt. Michael Jordans. You are like a child staring into the sun, feeling pain and looking away but then saying, "I am looking away because I saw something shiny, not because of the sun." I mean, just admit the comparisons would be dramatic if the 'king' went to try and take on the 'GOAT throne'.

Sorry, you lose this game but thanks for playing. One thing you can be sure, if he went to the Knicks, the comparisons wouldn't be nearly as drastic. He would be Lebron James of the New York Knickerbockers. That would be all, if he won a title, it wouldn't be, 1 title vs the 6 Michael Jordan got as would be with Chicago. It would be the first title in 30+ years for the Knicks.

You can deny the HUGE PURPLE elephant in the room for so long Bulls fans but give me a break. No matter what, Lebron would be second in your hearts if he became a bull. If you deny that, you deny what makes your team relevant.



Whenever any player challenges MJ as the GOAT it doesn't matter where you play.....ACTUALLY PLAYING in NY would probably bring MORE to this MJ vs Lebron due to the simple fact that the NY media will try and shove Lebron down peoples throats as the GOAT. Lebron has made himself a Global name meaning no matter where he goes everyone knows who he is and how good he is and eventually the MJ comparisons will come no matter where he is or what number he wears.