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View Full Version : If Vince Carter gets a ring, does it make him a HoFer?



Sadds The Gr8
05-13-2010, 02:43 AM
Vince has been one of the most dynamic scorers in the past 20 years. He was also a human highlight reel and one of the most entertaining players to watch when he was in his prime, and is arguably the greatest dunker of all time. The knock on him was that he chokes on big stages, and he can't lead a team. That being said, he finally is on a championship caliber team for the first time in his career and has a chance to get a ring. If the Magic win it all this year, does it make him a Hall of Famer?

Main Career Stats:
23 ppg
5.3 rpg
4.2 apg
44.5 FG%


What do you guys think?

Edit: Mods plz add a Poll. I forgot to add one.

Dougger316
05-13-2010, 02:44 AM
I think he was before, but this would lock it up

tangent12
05-13-2010, 02:49 AM
Very debatable topic. One could make a case for either scenario.

IMHO, no. He's a tad better and more consistent version of Tmac - a good player but no HOFer by any means. Carter has been overall an average/good player through most part of his career. Yes, he had a good start but after that he just didn't really continue playing at a high and consistent enough level. His position in the Magic right now perfectly describes the kind of player he is.

So no, i don't think he'll ever be a hall of famer.

asandhu23
05-13-2010, 02:55 AM
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCsSc49nJzg) all by itself sends him in the Hall of Fame.

Sadds The Gr8
05-13-2010, 02:57 AM
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCsSc49nJzg) all by itself sends him in the Hall of Fame.

As much as I hate Vince, it's hard to argue with that

kurivaimu
05-13-2010, 10:02 AM
I think its a tough call with Vince. If you look at his career, he hasn't accomplished much in terms of winning. He's been a effiecent and consistent scorer throughout career, but his stats don't pop out. And in most cases, a championship and a pretty regular stat line for a scorer don't get u in the HOF.

But..
Vince is a kind of a pioneer for the NBA. Half-man, Half-amazing, his highlight reel play, tremendous athleticism and dunking ability kind of started a new era for the NBA and helped to market basketball to a bigger audience. I remember being some, 14-15 at some basketball camp 7 years ago, and the first thing that was showed was Vince dunking over Weiss. And i live in Estonia for crying out loud...

So all in all, i think its a hard call.

JNA17
05-13-2010, 10:16 AM
tough call, but im leaning towards no

RipVW
05-13-2010, 10:18 AM
Vince is a hall of famer. His stats put him in the discussion and his dunks close the deal.

pebloemer
05-13-2010, 10:27 AM
I would hate to underemphasize a ring, because it is quite the accomplishment. But I do think the signficance of the ring is less if you aren't even the second best player on your team throughout the playoffs. I think how you attain your ring should be important, but that's just me. Vince could be in without the ring though, so a ring would probably be just icing on the cake.

The Final Boss
05-13-2010, 10:31 AM
With this logic Lebron will never be in the Hall of Fame...

sep11ie
05-13-2010, 10:41 AM
Is that a fan of the Hof?

Padres Son
05-13-2010, 10:43 AM
I don't think so. His numbers are boarderline... but I think he'll always be remembered for quitting on his team in Toronto. HOF votes can be won or lost based on the way a player respects the game, and there have been times in his career where Vince felt he was bigger than the game.

Also, yes, he was a great dunker... but he was not a "pioneer" or anything like that. He's one in a long line of great dunkers... Dr. J, Dominique Wilkins, MJ and many other guys paved the way for guys like Vince.

king4day
05-13-2010, 10:49 AM
If there's any hope he'll make it, it'll have to come with getting a ring. Without that, I can't see it

xbrackattackx
05-13-2010, 10:49 AM
If he wins a couple of rings with the magic before his career winds down he's in I think. He's like 32 now so that window is closing.

RipVW
05-13-2010, 10:50 AM
I don't think so. His numbers are boarderline... but I think he'll always be remembered for quitting on his team in Toronto. HOF votes can be won or lost based on the way a player respects the game, and there have been times in his career where Vince felt he was bigger than the game.

Also, yes, he was a great dunker... but he was not a "pioneer" or anything like that. He's one in a long line of great dunkers... Dr. J, Dominique Wilkins, MJ and many other guys paved the way for guys like Vince.

When it comes to dunking Vince is his own category...and I respect Michael Jordan as much as anyone.

xbrackattackx
05-13-2010, 10:50 AM
If there's any hope he'll make it, it'll have to come with getting a ring. Without that I can't see it

I agree with this.



Same with Tracy Mcgrady he will have to have a comeback year this year and rock for about 4 more years and get a ring to make. Cause He is still just 30 not too old.

Padres Son
05-13-2010, 11:04 AM
When it comes to dunking Vince is his own category...and I respect Michael Jordan as much as anyone.

Forget Jordan... Dominique was more of an influential dunker than MJ or Vince. The stuff that DW was doing in the mid-80's was way beyond what anyone else was doing at the time. Putback dunks almost never happened until DW started doing it.

Obviously Vince's dunks are more impressive than DW's when you compare them straight up... but DW was doing this stuff 15 years before Vince. Without DW, there wouldn't be a Vince Carter.

RipVW
05-13-2010, 11:09 AM
Forget Jordan... Dominique was more of an influential dunker than MJ or Vince. The stuff that DW was doing in the mid-80's was way beyond what anyone else was doing at the time. Putback dunks almost never happened until DW started doing it.

Obviously Vince's dunks are more impressive than DW's when you compare them straight up... but DW was doing this stuff 15 years before Vince. Without DW, there wouldn't be a Vince Carter.

No, Vince is also above Dominique. When you boil it down Dominique only did a couple of dunks with slight variations. They were spectacular but they have a sameness to them where Jordan had a greater variety.

Either way, Vince out Dominiques Dominique and out Jordans Jordan. Like I said, Vince is his own category when it comes to dunking.

And 10 years after Vinces 2000 dunk contest it remains the greatest portfolio of dunks ever seen in a dunk contest. On top of that, in his rookie year, it seemed like he did at least one jaw dropping dunk a night.

203 Uconn LaL
05-13-2010, 11:14 AM
Heck no

clutchski
05-13-2010, 11:16 AM
Check one in the NO column

hugepatsfan
05-13-2010, 11:57 AM
I've never fealt VC was a HOFer. He does have great stats, but it takes more than stats to be a HOFer, IMO.

carter15
05-13-2010, 12:09 PM
Just a side note, I don't know if this factors into the voters, but he won an Olympic Gold at the 2000 Olympics and was seen by many as the best player in that tournament. As I said though, I don't know if that matters when it comes to the HOF.

And yes, he'll make it, especially if he wins a ship. The famous not giving 100% interview was already shown to be untrue and badly edited.

mavwar53
05-13-2010, 12:14 PM
No way

RipVW
05-13-2010, 12:14 PM
Just a side note, I don't know if this factors into the voters, but he won an Olympic Gold at the 2000 Olympics and was seen by many as the best player in that tournament. As I said though, I don't know if that matters when it comes to the HOF.

And yes, he'll make it, especially if he wins a ship. The famous not giving 100% interview was already shown to be untrue and badly edited.

It should matter considering its the basketball hall of fame and not specific to the NBA.

And lets be honest, you should get credit for making basketball more entertaining to watch.

igPay atinLay
05-13-2010, 12:34 PM
Give him 3 rings and he's still not a hall of famer. He was great, he was elite, but he was not in the same league as guys like Kobe or Lebron.

He was a great player but never one that was an all time great. Vince was elite the hall is for the special ones.

Stats alone don't put one in the hall because they can be very misleading and never tell the whole story.

RipVW
05-13-2010, 12:37 PM
Give him 3 rings and he's still not a hall of famer. He was great, he was elite, but he was not in the same league as guys like Kobe or Lebron.

He was a great player but never one that was an all time great. Vince was elite the hall is for the special ones.

Stats alone don't put one in the hall because they can be very misleading and never tell the whole story.

There are a lot of guys in the HOF that werent as good as Kobe. Kobe's not a good baseline for getting in the hall of fame.

igPay atinLay
05-13-2010, 12:40 PM
There are a lot of guys in the HOF that werent as good as Kobe. Kobe's not a good baseline for getting in the hall of fame.


You're completely ignoring the point of my post and just commenting on a name I happened to put into it. My point is quite clear and I'm done explaining things to people on this site that don't want to take the time to understand someone's point before they comment on just one part that is not a significant part of it anyway.

nrwskinny
05-13-2010, 12:42 PM
Well first question is--what is the "benchmark" for the basketball Hall Of Fame? 20k points, 10K rebounds? Rings? MVP's..etc. Once that is established its much easier to grade player on HOF status...But if I had to choose right now...these guys are in first ballot
Duncan
Garnett
Shack
Kobe
Nash

Can't think of anybody else right now in the leauge who is in.

sNaKeS
05-13-2010, 12:54 PM
I agree with this.



Same with Tracy Mcgrady he will have to have a comeback year this year and rock for about 4 more years and get a ring to make. Cause He is still just 30 not too old.

Don't look at the age and say "not too old" because he has been in the league about the same amount of years as vinsanity. T-mac has been in the league for 12 years since he came out of high school, vince went to college before he went to the nba so he had more in the tank when he first came in the league.

RipVW
05-13-2010, 12:57 PM
You're completely ignoring the point of my post and just commenting on a name I happened to put into it. My point is quite clear and I'm done explaining things to people on this site that don't want to take the time to understand someone's point before they comment on just one part that is not a significant part of it anyway.

You should really start bottomlining and getting rid of clutter.

Chronz
05-13-2010, 12:59 PM
I dont understand how everyone isnt disgusted with the fact that Vince will become MORE of a HOF'er with whats been his worst season as a pro. Theres something wrong here.

RipVW
05-13-2010, 01:00 PM
Well first question is--what is the "benchmark" for the basketball Hall Of Fame? 20k points, 10K rebounds? Rings? MVP's..etc. Once that is established its much easier to grade player on HOF status...But if I had to choose right now...these guys are in first ballot
Duncan
Garnett
Shack
Kobe
Nash

Can't think of anybody else right now in the leauge who is in.

More goes into it than what they did in the NBA. Vince went to a final four at North Carolina and, as someone said, was on a team that won an Olympic gold medal.

Chronz
05-13-2010, 01:14 PM
Well first question is--what is the "benchmark" for the basketball Hall Of Fame? 20k points, 10K rebounds? Rings? MVP's..etc. Once that is established its much easier to grade player on HOF status...But if I had to choose right now...these guys are in first ballot
Duncan
Garnett
Shack
Kobe
Nash

Can't think of anybody else right now in the leauge who is in.

Thats a thread worthy question

Sadds The Gr8
05-13-2010, 01:16 PM
I've never fealt VC was a HOFer. He does have great stats, but it takes more than stats to be a HOFer, IMO.
Yea that's what I think too. But I think that that dunk contest along with his stats gets him in. That was the best dunk contest ever and was one of the most entertaining events in NBA history...maybe top 5. The NBA gained more popularity from it also. If it weren't for that dunk contest, I'd say hell no he gets in.

Well first question is--what is the "benchmark" for the basketball Hall Of Fame? 20k points, 10K rebounds? Rings? MVP's..etc. Once that is established its much easier to grade player on HOF status...But if I had to choose right now...these guys are in first ballot
Duncan
Garnett
Shack
Kobe
Nash

Can't think of anybody else right now in the leauge who is in.

That's another thing too, and I agree. No one knows what accolades you need to be a HoFer. It can be argued in so much different ways.

THE MTL
05-13-2010, 01:23 PM
Vince Carter was a Hall-of-Famer b4. A ring would lock it up. Iono like how a ring means everything. Adam Morrison has a ring does that make his legacy that much better? Darko Millic has a ring....I guess his legacy is great now?

Vince CArter re-invented dunking as well as being a perrenial allstar. He deserves HoF mainly for his dunking though.

Sadds The Gr8
05-13-2010, 01:26 PM
Vince Carter was a Hall-of-Famer b4. A ring would lock it up. Iono like how a ring means everything. Adam Morrison has a ring does that make his legacy that much better? Darko Millic has a ring....I guess his legacy is great now?

Vince CArter re-invented dunking as well as being a perrenial allstar. He deserves HoF mainly for his dunking though.

Those guys weren't multiple time all-stars, dynamic scorers, or one of the greatest dunkers of all time. Hell, those guys barely even started throughout their careers. And a ring doesn't get u into a HoF, but like you said, it "locks it up". I think you have to be a great rebounder, scorer, passer, and/or defender along with the ring to get you in. And you need stats to show it.

Anon
05-13-2010, 01:46 PM
My feeling is he isn't a Hall of Famer and without a ring he wouldn't get in. With a ring, depending on how big of finals he has he might get pushed into the discussion.

Hellcrooner
05-13-2010, 02:25 PM
people should take a look at WHO is already on the hof if the only thing that matterd ws winining ringas as main option the Hof would be like 12 people .

If it only was bout winning rings ina relevant position it woud go like 40 people


the truth is that there are LOTS of HOFERS with no rings no finals nothing but being consistent allstars and put up good stats wich vince is.

Hellcrooner
05-13-2010, 02:29 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_players_in_the_Basketball_Hall_of_Fame

you hqve ther the list of players and their achievements.

Judge for yourselves. specially D thompson, Iceman or Alx Enlgish

n83417
05-13-2010, 02:48 PM
No. He is and was always strictly a scorer. Did not care to play defense. He was often on terrible, losing teams. He did not have the ability, or desire to "carry" a team. He quit on the Toronto Raptors his final season there.

If he averaged 25 PPG through his entire career, and did not decline so rapidly once he hit 30, then perhaps. But he seems like he lacks the desire to remain an elite player/scorer.

Raph12
05-13-2010, 02:51 PM
Definitely, if Paul Pierce is considered a future HOFer because of a ring in 2008, VC definitely deserves to go in.

ldc62
05-13-2010, 02:52 PM
He won't be first ballot, but could possibly get in on a down year (when there aren't too many sure ins on the hof list/ballot). But yeah he should be a HOFer. Can't wait to see how Bill Simmons would rip him apart in his weekly column when he does get in (so many years from now).

n83417
05-13-2010, 02:56 PM
Definitely, if Paul Pierce is considered a future HOFer because of a ring in 2008, VC definitely deserves to go in.

Pierce was always a better player than Vince, overall. Pierce was better defensively, more consistent and a much better rebounder. Pierce Never quit on the Celtics like VC did the raptors. Also, being a Finals MVP gets a bit more notoriety than tagging along for a ring as a declining 3rd/4th option scorer.

Also, Paul Pierce HOFer is completely debatable as well.

smith&wesson
05-13-2010, 02:59 PM
as much as i hate vince, it's hard to argue with that

agreed!

smith&wesson
05-13-2010, 03:01 PM
I dont understand how everyone isnt disgusted with the fact that Vince will become MORE of a HOF'er with whats been his worst season as a pro. Theres something wrong here.

Because he is contributing to a contender and playing his role when every one thought he would be a disapointment.

i agree wit you though. carter was good in new jersey. i think ppl just didnt pay attention after kidd and rj left.

ko8e24
05-13-2010, 03:01 PM
He'll be known as the greatest dunker of all time who avgd 20+ ppg (and winning a ring past his prime, if he wins one).


But Steve Nash is already lock for the hall of fame and he hasn't won an nba title.

SHows how much impact on his teams Steve Nash has had as opposed to the impact VC has had on his teams like the Raps, Nets and Magic.

Giantwarrior
05-13-2010, 03:05 PM
remember when he quit on the Raptors to get traded?

who cares, i dont think any player who quit on his team should be in the Hall of Fame.

AI4MVP
05-13-2010, 03:09 PM
Well first question is--what is the "benchmark" for the basketball Hall Of Fame? 20k points, 10K rebounds? Rings? MVP's..etc. Once that is established its much easier to grade player on HOF status...But if I had to choose right now...these guys are in first ballot
Duncan
Garnett
Shack
Kobe
Nash

Can't think of anybody else right now in the leauge who is in.

Jason Kidd is without a doubt a first ballot hall of famer. anyone who disagrees doesnt know jackshit. its not even debatable

alencp3
05-13-2010, 03:19 PM
Apsolutely

RadiantShot
05-13-2010, 03:20 PM
Yes. I believe so.

chrism8188
05-13-2010, 03:28 PM
I think he was before, but this would lock it up

this !!!!

/thread

Hellcrooner
05-13-2010, 03:30 PM
remember when he quit on the Raptors to get traded?

who cares, i dont think any player who quit on his team should be in the Hall of Fame.

ok lets get Witl, Kareem an Barkley among others out of the hof:rolleyes:

kEviN21
05-13-2010, 03:36 PM
Because of the 03 dunk contest he is automatically a HOF'er lol

GatorKid117
05-13-2010, 03:43 PM
Easily.

Vince will surely get to the 20k point club. Of all the members eligible, Mitch Richmond and Tom Chambers are the only ones who aren't in the hall. Those 2 guys do not have rings and have less all-star apperances than Vince and I believe were never really regarded as good as Vince (I don't know much about Chambers I admit) in their prime.
Combined with Vince's gold medal and his influence on the game I can't see how they could leave him out. He's borderline right now, a ring would seal the deal. You guys saying he needs multiple rings to even stand a chance are over-rating how hard it is to get in. Many very good not great players have got in (Dom Wilkins) without a ring. Vince can as well.

SteveNash
05-13-2010, 03:45 PM
No and what does dunking have to do with anything?

Rego247
05-13-2010, 03:53 PM
remember when he quit on the Raptors to get traded?

who cares, i dont think any player who quit on his team should be in the Hall of Fame.

this!

smith&wesson
05-13-2010, 04:10 PM
No and what does dunking have to do with anything?

last time i checked it was a part of basket ball.

just because steve nash cant dunk, doesnt mean dunking is irelevant :D

Jenceman
05-13-2010, 04:11 PM
It certainly wouldn't hurt.

PrettyBoyJ
05-13-2010, 04:31 PM
Yeah He'll get in jus cuz of his consistent scoring and he prob will end up wit 23,000 points in his career... another reason DOminque Wilkins had a similar career and he's a HOF

tredigs
05-13-2010, 04:33 PM
He is THE BEST dunker in the history of the game. The main attraction of an NBA game to the casual fan is the dunk, and he did it so amazingly that he is widely known as the best. It sounds odd and maybe a little illogical to vote somebody in for one thing, but I think that in this case it is enough to put him over the hump. He was/somewhat still is a very good player who consistently put up 20+ 5+ 4+ with solid percentages for the entirety of his career, and again he had far too big of an impact on the game with those dunks not to be a part of the hall.

nrwskinny
05-13-2010, 04:35 PM
Forgot about Kidd..

OA SLAY
05-13-2010, 05:11 PM
He prolly should be if he gets a ring but prolly won't. Playing for the Raps early could have hurt or helped his chances... It's time for Raps fans to drop the grudge!

Ollie Tabooger
05-13-2010, 06:10 PM
no.

ryansuydam26
05-13-2010, 06:22 PM
DEFINATELY he already was he is probaly the top 2 best dunkers of all time he has to be a HOF

AirCanada15ORL
05-13-2010, 06:34 PM
I would hate to underemphasize a ring, because it is quite the accomplishment. But I do think the signficance of the ring is less if you aren't even the second best player on your team throughout the playoffs. I think how you attain your ring should be important, but that's just me. Vince could be in without the ring though, so a ring would probably be just icing on the cake.

Are you high? Just because Nelson has had a good series does not by any means make him the second best player on the team. Jesus.

hugepatsfan
05-13-2010, 06:37 PM
Are you high? Just because Nelson has had a good series does not by any means make him the second best player on the team. Jesus.

He said second best player throughout the playoffs, whick Jameer has clearly been. Reading comprehension is a beautiful thing my friend. :D

AirCanada15ORL
05-13-2010, 06:43 PM
I'm not gonna write 3 paragraphs about why I think my favorite player should be in the HOF, thats not gonna do anything but annoy ppl.

But I used to always think VC was a hall of famer before coming to Orlando, but a lotta ppl, analysts disagree with that. So I think winning a ring would make it happen. Finals MVP? I'd have to say a lock then.

Few things I gotta mention though.
I think a lot of people forgot how special Vince Carter really was.
VC is going to pass the 20K mark, go try to find a player who reached the 20K mark who ISNT in the hall of fame. I'm pretty sure it's no one.
You might just say it's just dunking, but think back to 2000. How special and unbelievable was some of the stuff VC was doing. Were used to it by now

I'm trying to find this DR J quote. It goes like -Greatness is not just determined by how many rings you win. Sometimes someone comes along and does things that no one has seen before, they inspire people, they're revolutionary."

AirCanada15ORL
05-13-2010, 06:43 PM
He said second best player throughout the playoffs, whick Jameer has clearly been. Reading comprehension is a beautiful thing my friend. :D

ya I skimmed through that my bad!

AirCanada15ORL
05-13-2010, 06:47 PM
I'm prolly getting too into this now. Soz
But I mean just back in the Kobe,VC,Shaq,AI,Tmac, etc era. Just think back if you can.

Think of the level of dominance these guys displayed. It's far more entertaining imo then anything now days.

AirCanada15ORL
05-13-2010, 07:06 PM
Pierce was always a better player than Vince, overall. Pierce was better defensively, more consistent and a much better rebounder. Pierce Never quit on the Celtics like VC did the raptors. Also, being a Finals MVP gets a bit more notoriety than tagging along for a ring as a declining 3rd/4th option scorer.

Also, Paul Pierce HOFer is completely debatable as well.


Pierce was never better than Carter. Sorry there's no way you're going to convince me that.
Pierce might have hot shooting nights but he couldnt take over like Vince could.

I dont get this "not leading a team". Did he not lead that worthless Raptors team to a game 7, shot away from ECF? Did he not lead that, picked to be last, Nets team into the playoff race last year? What has Pierce done when he's on a **** team?

RadiantShot
05-13-2010, 07:07 PM
Sorry Air, but, I don't think there's much of a chance of Vince, getting the Finals MVP, over Dwight, if we do end up in the Finals, and win it.

Anyways, I didn't come to argue. Just thought you were correct on your statement, besides that part.

Vince deserves to be in the HOF, but he'll be more likely to, if he get's a ring.

AirCanada15ORL
05-13-2010, 07:11 PM
I didn't say that. I said If he were too thatd be a lock. Not saying thats the most likely scenerio.
And I'm glad you think he deserves it, he does.

SaimoNETS
05-13-2010, 07:15 PM
I think he was before, but this would lock it up

This

RadiantShot
05-13-2010, 07:21 PM
I didn't say that. I said If he were too thatd be a lock. Not saying thats the most likely scenerio.
And I'm glad you think he deserves it, he does.

My mistake. Yes, in your defense, you were right. If he get's a Finals MVP & a Championship, finally, with a good team, he should be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Why question it?

n83417
05-13-2010, 07:27 PM
Pierce was never better than Carter. Sorry there's no way you're going to convince me that.
Pierce might have hot shooting nights but he couldnt take over like Vince could.

I dont get this "not leading a team". Did he not lead that worthless Raptors team to a game 7, shot away from ECF? Did he not lead that, picked to be last, Nets team into the playoff race last year? What has Pierce done when he's on a **** team?

A shot away from the ECF? Wow that is quite an achievement. And leading a team to the "playoff race" is not much of an accomplishment either, sorry. Carter's prime was very short. He declined VERY quickly.

As for Pierce vs. Carter. Their offensive stats are almost identical. Pierce was always much better defensively and a much better rebounder. Carter was only a better dunker.

I would take an all around player over a scorer any day.

Oh, and what would pierce do on a **** team? not sure. But one thing he did not do is completely quit on his team and demand a trade.

DengelBerry
05-13-2010, 07:27 PM
Very debatable topic. One could make a case for either scenario.

IMHO, no. He's a tad better and more consistent version of Tmac - a good player but no HOFer by any means. Carter has been overall an average/good player through most part of his career. Yes, he had a good start but after that he just didn't really continue playing at a high and consistent enough level. His position in the Magic right now perfectly describes the kind of player he is.

So no, i don't think he'll ever be a hall of famer.

Totally agree, he's a great supporting cast. But no HOFer

RadiantShot
05-13-2010, 07:29 PM
Hahah. "Great supporting cast." Amusing.

AirCanada15ORL
05-13-2010, 07:37 PM
Ok sorry tell me what Pierce did with his Celtics team before KG and Allen got there?
A jumpshot away from ECF, with THAT TORONTOS TEAM is something Pierce could not EVER. EVER had done. Try to think logically about this and not just through your biased goggles. You honestly think Pierce can carry a team better then Vince could?

and I'd take a motivated Vince on defense over a Paul Pierce's sluggish ***. Dont get me wrong I like Pierce.

The only thing Pierce has the edge on is honestly a better mid range shot and a the fact of playing on a better teams.

I dont know what Vince wasnt better at. Vince was a better playmaker, scorer, ball handler, attacker,was more athletic, faster, could create his own shot better. Just everything I can think of.

SF25
05-13-2010, 07:37 PM
Hahah. "Great supporting cast." Amusing.

Lol this. The guy led his last 2 teams in scoring, obviously he's not just a "supporting cast" player.

carter15
05-13-2010, 07:40 PM
Totally agree, he's a great supporting cast. But no HOFer

I'm sorry but how often does a team win without a good supporting cast. Kobe couldn't win without Shaq and then Gasol and Bynum. Jordan had Pippen. Lebron until this day can't win without a better supporting cast. The notion that people have that 1 person can win a championship is ridiculous. You NEED a very good cast around you, and now if VC wins your going to hold it against him that he had great players around him. Then what about the Celtics and the big 3, none of them could win before they were all on the Celtics. It's a team sport, and you need a great team to win, not just the best player.

Point of this message - Nobody, or barely anybody can lead a team to a championship without a very good team around them. Vince's best team was an old Kidd, and we saw what he did in Dallas, and RJ, who we saw what he did in San Antonio.

The fact that VC got to the EC semis game 7 and 1 shot away with the team he had was pretty great.

RadiantShot
05-13-2010, 07:41 PM
I think my work here is done. Vince and AirCanada can finish. ;)

carter15
05-13-2010, 07:42 PM
I think my work here is done. Vince and AirCanada can finish. ;)

haha i love how u call me Vince, if you are indeed refering to me, if not this is kind of embarassing. but yah back to the point, my "name" is carter15 and u call me vince, i find it kinda funny :p.

RadiantShot
05-13-2010, 07:42 PM
I'm sorry but how often does a team win without a good supporting cast. Kobe couldn't win without Shaq and then Gasol and Bynum. Jordan had Pippen. Lebron until this day can't win without a better supporting cast. The notion that people have that 1 person can win a championship is ridiculous. You NEED a very good cast around you, and now if VC wins your going to hold it against him that he had great players around him. Then what about the Celtics and the big 3, none of them could win before they were all on the Celtics. It's a team sport, and you need a great team to win, not just the best player.

Point of this message - Nobody, or barely anybody can lead a team to a championship without a very good team around them. Vince's best team was an old Kidd, and we saw what he did in Dallas, and RJ, who we saw what he did in San Antonio.

The fact that VC got to the EC semis game 7 and 1 shot away with the team he had was pretty great.

I'd definitely have to agree on this; That's why, the best TEAM wins a Championship, not just a player. That's why, when they give out rings, it's to everyone who made it possible, not one player. Again, it's a team thing, so why only reward one player, most players couldn't get a Championship by themselves if they had Michael, Kobe, & Shaq caliber dominance in them.

RadiantShot
05-13-2010, 07:43 PM
haha i love how u call me Vince, if you are indeed refering to me, if not this is kind of embarassing. but yah back to the point, my "name" is carter15 and u call me vince, i find it kinda funny :p.

No, I called you that on purpose. ;)

Remember, I'm Barnes, ManRam is MeerCat, Superman is Dwight, and so on. :)

carter15
05-13-2010, 07:43 PM
No, I called you that on purpose. ;)

Remember, I'm Barnes, ManRam is MeerCat, Superman is Dwight, and so on. :)

oh yeaaaaaaa. with this huge layoff i forgot all about that :p.

AirCanada15ORL
05-13-2010, 07:46 PM
Lol this. The guy led his last 2 teams in scoring, obviously he's not just a "supporting cast" player.

In his prime? Supporting cast? Are you kidding?
I'd almost even argue hes a pretty bad supporting cast player lol.
On the Magic they have this moment in the game called Vince Carter time. Up until then you're pulling your hair out screaming "WHY HASNT VC STARTED TRYING YET!!!" :speechless::mad:

Then VC will recieve the ball for 12 straight pocessions. He'll start going off, slashing, scoring, attacking, making plays wearing the defense down, plays intense D, throws down a inspring dunk. And you quickly swing your emotions to. :D:clap::D



But he's adjusted well. You cant say he's a career supporting cast player because at AGE 33 he's the 2nd option. If this were 2000 it'd be a different story. But It's not.

RadiantShot
05-13-2010, 07:47 PM
Actually, I'll be brutally honest, I didn't remember. I said Vince in the rush of things. My apologies. ;)

I called D Roses Bulls, MJ, before, so don't feel bad. Haha. What's funny is I was looking right at your name. Stamp an Epic Fail on my head.

RadiantShot
05-13-2010, 07:48 PM
In his prime? Supporting cast? Are you kidding?
I'd almost even argue hes a pretty bad supporting cast player lol.
On the Magic they have this moment in the game called Vince Carter time. Up until then you're pulling your hair out screaming "WHY HASNT VC STARTED TRYING YET!!!" :speechless::mad:

Then VC will recieve the ball for 12 straight pocessions. He'll start going off, slashing, scoring, attacking, making plays wearing the defense down, plays intense D, throws down a inspring dunk. And you quickly swing your emotions to. :D:clap::D



But he's adjusted well. You cant say he's a career supporting cast player because at AGE 33 he's the 2nd option. If this were 2000 it'd be a different story. But It's not.

He wasn't saying he was a "Supporting Cast" player. He was agreeing with me, and I said he wasn't either.

He was saying, Vince led his team for so long, so there's no reason why he should even be considered a "Supporting Cast."

AirCanada15ORL
05-13-2010, 07:50 PM
oh wow I need to start reading slower....

magicdouglas
05-13-2010, 07:51 PM
In his prime? Supporting cast? Are you kidding?
I'd almost even argue hes a pretty bad supporting cast player lol.
On the Magic they have this moment in the game called Vince Carter time. Up until then you're pulling your hair out screaming "WHY HASNT VC STARTED TRYING YET!!!" :speechless::mad:

Then VC will recieve the ball for 12 straight pocessions. He'll start going off, slashing, scoring, attacking, making plays wearing the defense down, plays intense D, throws down a inspring dunk. And you quickly swing your emotions to. :D:clap::D



But he's adjusted well. You cant say he's a career supporting cast player because at AGE 33 he's the 2nd option. If this were 2000 it'd be a different story. But It's not.

Great point but he makes one hell of a TEAMmate!!! Thats why Otis brought him here, to complement the TEAM!!

RadiantShot
05-13-2010, 07:53 PM
Honestly, at first, in the beginning of the season, I thought Vince was a team-cancer. I've quickly learned otherwise. He's doing exactly what Turk did, AND more. He's a more prolific scorer than Hedo, and he's got the same clutch, if not, better clutch capabilities than Turk, as well. I've grown to like Vince more and more. I actually like him a lot better than Hedo now.

SF25
05-13-2010, 07:56 PM
oh wow I need to start reading slower....

Lol yeah I was agreeing with RadiantShot. I'm a huge VC fan, have been since I was 10 years old so I would never in a million years say he's been a supporting cast player his entire career.

RadiantShot
05-13-2010, 07:58 PM
Lol yeah I was agreeing with RadiantShot. I'm a huge VC fan, have been since I was 10 years old so I would never in a million years say he's been a supporting cast player his entire career.

I like this guy. Come join the Magic forum. ;)

carter15
05-13-2010, 07:59 PM
It's funny because earlier in his career many people were criticizing him for not putting the team first. And now that he does put the team first, as is content taking a secondary role and doing what the team needs him too, people criticize him for that. And nobody in the media is crticizing him for that, cause they know its right or admirable or whatever you want to call it, it's only some "fans" who bash him for that.

SF25
05-13-2010, 07:59 PM
I like this guy. Come join the Magic forum. ;)

Yeah I'll probably start posting there more often. I always liked the Magic but now that Vince is there I like them even more.

prash
05-13-2010, 07:59 PM
If Wince makes it into the Hall of Fame they should rename the place the Hall of Shame.

RadiantShot
05-13-2010, 08:01 PM
It's funny because earlier in his career many people were criticizing him for not putting the team first. And now that he does put the team first, as is content taking a secondary role and doing what the team needs him too, people criticize him for that. And nobody in the media is crticizing him for that, cause they know its right or admirable or whatever you want to call it, it's only some "fans" who bash him for that.

Yeah, I hate that about the media. They switch up everything.

Anyways, I really like Vince as both a person, and a player. When I see him talking in Post-game interviews, he seems very down-to-earth, but at the same time, he's mentally focused on what his goal is; This Championship. If Vince was a kid at my school, I'd probably be good friends with him. He's pretty cool. He's done great things for this team too..Really, I see nothing wrong with what he's done so far, for us, other than that small bad stretch in the first half of this season.

RadiantShot
05-13-2010, 08:02 PM
Yeah I'll probably start posting there more often. I always liked the Magic but now that Vince is there I like them even more.

That's cool. Definitely come hang. We're really laid back, we have fun, and we don't hop on our team after a loss; For the most part. We're one of the smaller forums, but hey, we have ourselves a Grand Ol' time. ;)

SF25
05-13-2010, 08:02 PM
If Wince makes it into the Hall of Fame they should rename the place the Hall of Shame.

Lol good one...

:facepalm:

RadiantShot
05-13-2010, 08:03 PM
If Wince makes it into the Hall of Fame they should rename the place the Hall of Shame.

Wince?
Not really sure why people should call him that.
Hahah.

Chronz
05-13-2010, 08:47 PM
Because he is contributing to a contender and playing his role when every one thought he would be a disapointment.

i agree wit you though. carter was good in new jersey. i think ppl just didnt pay attention after kidd and rj left.
So hes getting more credit for doing something thats easier?

carter15
05-13-2010, 08:50 PM
So hes getting more credit for doing something thats easier?

Well us "fans" give more credit to winning then just about anything else.
Pierce, KG, and Allen all got their most credit ever for winning a championship where they all had to sacrifice numbers than they did at any other point in their career.
If people are going to look at things like that in the Celtics situation you must do that for everyone, can't just pick and choose when to use certain standards.

dodie53
05-13-2010, 09:05 PM
yes imo.

97NYer
05-13-2010, 09:08 PM
Yes, not first ballot though and not any time soon.

kvrnm
05-13-2010, 10:00 PM
yes!

ObiterDictator
05-13-2010, 10:15 PM
Vince will never be a hall of famer, not even close. He'll be remembered for three things:

1) That dunk contest.
2) That dunk over Weis.
3) The career he didn't have because he didn't put in the effort

IndiansFan337
05-13-2010, 11:20 PM
No.

Chronz
05-13-2010, 11:21 PM
Well us "fans" give more credit to winning then just about anything else.
Pierce, KG, and Allen all got their most credit ever for winning a championship where they all had to sacrifice numbers than they did at any other point in their career.
If people are going to look at things like that in the Celtics situation you must do that for everyone, can't just pick and choose when to use certain standards.
Why though? Why not give more credit to when he (KG) attained a higher level of play, had more to do with his teams ultimate success, and won an MVP in the process? Your basically giving credit for their teammates more than their own contributions.

Winning matters, I just think it matters alittle too much with you guys. Why am I giving Vince more credit when what hes doing now, isnt as enduring as what was being asked of him before? If the role Vince is currently operating in was being asked of him in his prime the Magic would be scary good.

Now if Vince performs insanely good in key games, Id rethink where to rate this season.

Sadds The Gr8
05-13-2010, 11:33 PM
thx for the poll mods

AirCanada15ORL
05-13-2010, 11:34 PM
I dont have time to read everything you've posted Chronz. But if you're saying that VC deserves more of his HOF status on previous years, and years like 08-09 where he put his heart and lead a team that was picked to finish dead last (and the following year finishes as one of the worst teams in history w/o him), and helped develop young players.
Or his overall dominance and impact in the game in Toronto.

Than
This 09-10 season where he may win a ring

I agree.

IndiansFan337
05-13-2010, 11:35 PM
thx for the poll mods

No problem.

Go up top to vote, guys.

Jacob K.
05-13-2010, 11:47 PM
he lead the league in allstar voting how many years?

carter15
05-14-2010, 12:15 AM
Why though? Why not give more credit to when he (KG) attained a higher level of play, had more to do with his teams ultimate success, and won an MVP in the process? Your basically giving credit for their teammates more than their own contributions.

Winning matters, I just think it matters alittle too much with you guys. Why am I giving Vince more credit when what hes doing now, isnt as enduring as what was being asked of him before? If the role Vince is currently operating in was being asked of him in his prime the Magic would be scary good.

Now if Vince performs insanely good in key games, Id rethink where to rate this season.

I don't necesarily disagree with what your saying.

Bringing the Raptors team he had to Game 7 of the second round, which is further than Lebron just took his team, is far more impressive than what VC did this year.
Winning 49 games or whatever it was with basically just Kidd in NJ was also more impressive. He had some great years, but that's not what is being asked of him now.
And most people, and especially the media value championships like crazy, so I'm simply saying if they do so for guys like Pierce and KG, you have to with Vince as well.

Sadds The Gr8
05-14-2010, 12:57 AM
I don't necesarily disagree with what your saying.

Bringing the Raptors team he had to Game 7 of the second round, which is further than Lebron just took his team, is far more impressive than what VC did this year.
Winning 49 games or whatever it was with basically just Kidd in NJ was also more impressive. He had some great years, but that's not what is being asked of him now.
And most people, and especially the media value championships like crazy, so I'm simply saying if they do so for guys like Pierce and KG, you have to with Vince as well.

ok but other than that what else has he done in terms of winning? Yea the team wasnt that good, but lots of players have lead crap teams to deep playoff runs. At least Lebron has been to the finals...

chonbon
05-14-2010, 01:01 AM
yes

Rego247
05-14-2010, 05:08 PM
guys who quit on their team and publicly admit they quit on their team do not deserve to be in the HOF.