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View Full Version : D'Antoni says Magic and Suns Playoff success is the blueprint for the Knicks.



fairandbalanced
05-11-2010, 06:10 PM
What I'm really happy about is you see the way Orlando and Phoenix play, they're arguably two of the best teams, and that's how we need to play,



They're reaffirming the blueprint that'll get us to a championship. And that's what we've got to do in New York.





They're playing better defense, and you've got to give Alvin [Gentry] credit for that....................Amar'e can say what he wants, but we talked every day to him about defense. I mean, we're not stupid. We emphasized and tried, but he wasn't ready to buy into it totally.
And Alvin got him to buy in, and I think that's Alvin's strength. He got a bond with Amar'e that I probably couldn't reach, and it's worked.



I guess he believes Amare played defense for the Coach he liked, not the better teacher.

D-Leethal
05-11-2010, 06:13 PM
I haven't looked it up, but there is a thread on the knicks forum where posters have proven that D'antoni's Suns teams were ranked higher defensively each year than this years Suns team, but I agree with him that Orlando, last year and this year, and Suns to a lesser degree have proven that 3 point shooting teams can go deep in the playoffs and get to the finals. The fact that you have to play defense is a given, but they prove that those types of teams can run, shoot the 3 ball, and play D while leading to Ws

Giaps
05-11-2010, 06:51 PM
I'll say it again... the Suns would have won the championship the year Amare and Diaw got suspended.

The system CAN win... you just need the right players.

bkmikeyy
05-11-2010, 06:54 PM
Nowhere in those quotes does it say that he takes CREDIT for the Suns and Magic success. He's just saying that they play a similar style and that if executed correctly it can work.

BIGBLUEWEGOHARD
05-11-2010, 07:10 PM
And nowhere have any of these teams won a title. Playoff games are one thing. Win the 'chip. I'll believe it when I see it. As should everyone.

BIGBLUEWEGOHARD
05-11-2010, 07:12 PM
And Knicks fans will say whatever because most of them (us) are biased. No "D" Antoni in my opinion isn't a great coach. If he wins with Lebron, Bosh/Wade or whoever else big deal. What coach worth their salt wouldn't win with them?

bkmikeyy
05-11-2010, 07:16 PM
And Knicks fans will say whatever because most of them (us) are biased. No "D" Antoni in my opinion isn't a great coach. If he wins with Lebron, Bosh/Wade or whoever else big deal. What coach worth their salt wouldn't win with them?

Mike Brown apparently

D-Leethal
05-11-2010, 07:23 PM
lol, we will say whatever because we are biased and than you come out with that filth of a post? I didn't say whatever, I presented a fact that D'antoni's Suns were ranked higher every year with him as coach than Gentrys Suns were ranked this season. That is the an opinion backed by statistics.......what you just spewed BIGBLUE would be classified as 'whatever' or in other terms, 'garbage'

and to answer your question: Mike Brown, Jay Triano, Sam Mitchell, Stan Van Gundy, and Erik Spoelstra were all not able to win championships with Lebron, Bosh, or Wade.

ldc62
05-11-2010, 07:24 PM
so the system is run and gun, but also play good D.... thanks D'antoni... you're a genius.:rolleyes:

D-Leethal
05-11-2010, 07:27 PM
^^^ are the majority on the NBA forum really this stupid??? I would hope not but everytime I check this forum I get reassured that they are..........yes, all D'antoni tells his players to do is 'run' and all Gentry did was say 'play defense' and voilla, you have the new PHX Suns

D-Leethal
05-11-2010, 07:30 PM
here is the post I was talking about on the Knicks forum that deals with facts, something the majority here don't use to back their nonsense claims


Unfortunately, on ESPN's page, Hollinger's defensive efficiency ratings are all messed up for previous seasons.

But basketball reference has a similar stat, called defensive rating- which is apparently an estimate of points allowed per 100 possessions.

09-10 (this year): The Suns had a Defensive rating of 110.2 (26th of 30)

Going back to D'Antoni's years:
07-08: 108.1 (16th of 30)
06-07: 106.4 (13th of 30)
05-06: 105.8 (16th of 30)
04-05: 107.1 (17th of 30)
03-04: 105.5 (24th of 29)

In every one of D'Antoni's years, the Suns were better defensively than this year. And actually in the 06-07 season, they were above average.

Now I looked at the postseason stats for the Suns and you do see an improvement. The Suns defensive rating in the playoffs this year is 106.2 (7th out of 16) and above playoff league average.

So why did the Suns advance to the WCF? Because the Spurs team they beat was a shell of their former selves and because they faced basically a Royless Blazers team (Roy may have played but he was not his real self). If this was the 2007 Spurs team, the Suns would probably be going home. And if the Blazers had a healthy Roy, the Suns may have been going home (it would've been a much more interesting series though). And this team is NOT as good as Mike D's teams, they've just faced easier competition (until the Lakers that is).

I will give Alvin Gentry credit in using his bench better though.

Raph12
05-11-2010, 07:39 PM
The Magic play a completely different brand of basketball.

Tony_Starks
05-11-2010, 08:07 PM
First off Orlando has absolutely nothing to do with that guy, they play inside out and they start with defense.

Second he sounds really stupid saying Gentry got Amare to play defense and he couldn't. There's a reason for that... He antagonized Amare, got on him about his conditioning, and was viewed as a total ******* by Amare and Marion. The players actually LIKE Gentry and play hard for him, he doesn't take all the credit in wins and blame all the players in losses... something that Mike perfected and took to NY.

This dude is really pathetic. He can take credit all he wants but Gentry is a better coach than he ever was. Gentry turned Grant Hill into his defensive stopper. Mike had Marion in his prime who was the most versatile defender in the world and he couldn't do the same thing.

D-Leethal
05-11-2010, 08:24 PM
The Magic play a completely different brand of basketball.

You obviously watch the Magic more than I do but the offense Dantoni runs is predicated around the pick and roll with 3 guys surrounding the 3 point line. P & R is the first option or kick out and ball reversal around the 3 point line when the defense collapses. How is this 'completely different' than the Magic offense? The Magic are obviously a great defensive team as well but I think its a given you must play D to do well in the playoffs. Im talking offensive scheme

D-Leethal
05-11-2010, 08:32 PM
@@ Tony Starks..........Orlando does not play inside out. They run high P & R and rarely post Dwight.

Game 1: Dwight 10 FGA, Vince 16 FGA, Jameer 12 FGA
Game 2: Dwight 9 FGA, Vince 16 FGA, Jameer 14 FGA, Lewis 13 FGA
Game 3: Dwight 8 FGA, Vince 5 FGA, Jameer 9 FGA (Lewis 13FGA, Barnes 9 FGA, Pietrus 10 FGA)
Game 4: 5 FGA , Carter 12 FGA, Jameer 11 FGA, Lewis 10 FGA

Howard is the fourth option on offense and rarely touches the ball in the post, and rarely records assists from inside out 3 pointers. The offense is predicated on 3 point shooting by the wings and penetration from Jameer off the P & R..... the very same thing Dantoni revolves his offense around

bkmikeyy
05-11-2010, 08:36 PM
First off Orlando has absolutely nothing to do with that guy, they play inside out and they start with defense.

Second he sounds really stupid saying Gentry got Amare to play defense and he couldn't. There's a reason for that... He antagonized Amare, got on him about his conditioning, and was viewed as a total ******* by Amare and Marion. The players actually LIKE Gentry and play hard for him, he doesn't take all the credit in wins and blame all the players in losses... something that Mike perfected and took to NY.

This dude is really pathetic. He can take credit all he wants but Gentry is a better coach than he ever was. Gentry turned Grant Hill into his defensive stopper. Mike had Marion in his prime who was the most versatile defender in the world and he couldn't do the same thing.

WHERE DO PEOPLE SEE HIM TAKING CREDIT?? am I missing something? Only seems like he complimented Gentry for doing a good job with Amar'e.

D-Leethal
05-11-2010, 09:01 PM
^^ yes, but instead of reading the article people will hold the misconstrued title (that does not represent the bulk of the article whatsoever) as truth

Voodoo Alchemy
05-11-2010, 09:11 PM
And nowhere have any of these teams won a title. Playoff games are one thing. Win the 'chip. I'll believe it when I see it. As should everyone.

showtime lakers won many titles with run and gun while playing defense.

Voodoo Alchemy
05-11-2010, 09:16 PM
You obviously watch the Magic more than I do but the offense Dantoni runs is predicated around the pick and roll with 3 guys surrounding the 3 point line. P & R is the first option or kick out and ball reversal around the 3 point line when the defense collapses. How is this 'completely different' than the Magic offense? The Magic are obviously a great defensive team as well but I think its a given you must play D to do well in the playoffs. Im talking offensive scheme

you forgot to mention that it takes more than 2 guys to defend the pick/roll. i've seen plays drawn out on the teleprompter showing the skill needed to defend pick/roll and it's just amazing. that's why it's so devastating and the suns are the best in the business.

Big Quett
05-11-2010, 09:25 PM
@@ Tony Starks..........Orlando does not play inside out. They run high P & R and rarely post Dwight.

Game 1: Dwight 10 FGA, Vince 16 FGA, Jameer 12 FGA
Game 2: Dwight 9 FGA, Vince 16 FGA, Jameer 14 FGA, Lewis 13 FGA
Game 3: Dwight 8 FGA, Vince 5 FGA, Jameer 9 FGA (Lewis 13FGA, Barnes 9 FGA, Pietrus 10 FGA)
Game 4: 5 FGA , Carter 12 FGA, Jameer 11 FGA, Lewis 10 FGA

Howard is the fourth option on offense and rarely touches the ball in the post, and rarely records assists from inside out 3 pointers. The offense is predicated on 3 point shooting by the wings and penetration from Jameer off the P & R..... the very same thing Dantoni revolves his offense around

Ok did you take into account the 13 ft attempts he averaged a game? Which obviously dont count as shot attempts.

ink
05-11-2010, 09:32 PM
I guess he believes Amare played defense for the Coach he liked, not the better teacher.

Another misleading thread title :pity: ...

Nowhere in the quotes you posted (which don't come with a link btw) did D'Antoni CREDIT HIS PHILOSOPHY.

He said the Suns and Magic are "how we (the Knicks) need to play". That is not referring to the past. That is referring to the future.

And his claim about having stressed D to Amare is true. But that's not crediting his "philosophy". That's common sense.

ink
05-11-2010, 09:35 PM
here is the post I was talking about on the Knicks forum that deals with facts, something the majority here don't use to back their nonsense claims

Thanks for that re-post. Good info. :clap:

D-Leethal
05-11-2010, 10:10 PM
Ok did you take into account the 13 ft attempts he averaged a game? Which obviously dont count as shot attempts.

I didn't count the FT attempts for anyone, probably should have now that I think about it.....but anyone that watches Orlando knows that if Dwight gets the ball with his back to the basket it is usually the last option and rarely occurs. His points all come from rebounds and from catching the ball off the P & R. Inside-out basketball is not really the same as P & R basketball.....Dwight is the defensive anchor and his prescence allows the Magic to get open looks on the perimeter, but he is not the main offensive option or even top 3

dodie53
05-11-2010, 10:43 PM
it depends on the players on the team
and
how they are utilized

ldc62
05-11-2010, 10:46 PM
^^^ are the majority on the NBA forum really this stupid??? I would hope not but everytime I check this forum I get reassured that they are..........yes, all D'antoni tells his players to do is 'run' and all Gentry did was say 'play defense' and voilla, you have the new PHX Suns

Sarcasm fool

aNYer
05-11-2010, 11:40 PM
D-leethal on fire.
I wish I could force every NBA fan on this board to read your posts in this thread. Sick of people just parroting information they hear regardless of the fact that its not based in reality.

Raph12
05-12-2010, 12:05 AM
You obviously watch the Magic more than I do but the offense Dantoni runs is predicated around the pick and roll with 3 guys surrounding the 3 point line. P & R is the first option or kick out and ball reversal around the 3 point line when the defense collapses. How is this 'completely different' than the Magic offense? The Magic are obviously a great defensive team as well but I think its a given you must play D to do well in the playoffs. Im talking offensive scheme

@@ Tony Starks..........Orlando does not play inside out. They run high P & R and rarely post Dwight.

Game 1: Dwight 10 FGA, Vince 16 FGA, Jameer 12 FGA
Game 2: Dwight 9 FGA, Vince 16 FGA, Jameer 14 FGA, Lewis 13 FGA
Game 3: Dwight 8 FGA, Vince 5 FGA, Jameer 9 FGA (Lewis 13FGA, Barnes 9 FGA, Pietrus 10 FGA)
Game 4: 5 FGA , Carter 12 FGA, Jameer 11 FGA, Lewis 10 FGA

Howard is the fourth option on offense and rarely touches the ball in the post, and rarely records assists from inside out 3 pointers. The offense is predicated on 3 point shooting by the wings and penetration from Jameer off the P & R..... the very same thing Dantoni revolves his offense around

You obviously don't watch the Magic much...

1. Dwight is the #1 option, with Carter #2, while Nelson and Shard get around the same touches.

2. Orlando plays inside-out, they dump the ball into Howard, he goes to work, when teams start to double, he dishes and the ball is moved around for the open 3. The p&r is a weapon the Magic use a lot, agreed, but they use it when they're doubling Dwight on touch, or in the 4th (because of Dwight's FTs), primarily, they go inside-out.

3. Dwight's assist numbers are never too high because they don't just take the first shot available, they swing the ball to try and find the most open look.

4. Dwight's shot attempts are a result of overwhelming double teams and blowouts. I watched every Magic game this season and there was not even one team that wasn't forced to double at some point in the game. The Magic led the league in pt-differential, they would blow out their opponents regularly and would let their bench play in the 4th, a big reason why JJ Redick is their leader for 4th quarter scoring.

5. The Suns run the 4th fastest pace in the league, behind the Warriors, Pacers and Wolves. They also rank in the bottom third for dEFF, difference between them and those other teams is that they rank 1st in the in oEFF. The Magic run the 18th fastest pace and they finished 2nd in oEFF and 1st in dEFF, they do it on both ends because they run more half-court sets with Dwight in the paint, posting up Shard, Carter or p&r with Dwight-Nelson.

If you watch more games, you'll come to know that they run a lot of plays for Dwight, especially in the first 3 quarters and early in the 4th, watch the ECFs and then let me know what you've observed... Regardless, they play a completely different game than the Suns, the only thing in common, is that they both love the 3pt shot, for very different reasons.

Voodoo Alchemy
05-12-2010, 12:35 AM
lol, we will say whatever because we are biased and than you come out with that filth of a post? I didn't say whatever, I presented a fact that D'antoni's Suns were ranked higher every year with him as coach than Gentrys Suns were ranked this season. That is the an opinion backed by statistics.......what you just spewed BIGBLUE would be classified as 'whatever' or in other terms, 'garbage'

and to answer your question: Mike Brown, Jay Triano, Sam Mitchell, Stan Van Gundy, and Erik Spoelstra were all not able to win championships with Lebron, Bosh, or Wade.

jackson wasn't able to win with kobe either. and so your point is?

Voodoo Alchemy
05-12-2010, 12:40 AM
^^^ are the majority on the NBA forum really this stupid??? I would hope not but everytime I check this forum I get reassured that they are..........yes, all D'antoni tells his players to do is 'run' and all Gentry did was say 'play defense' and voilla, you have the new PHX Suns

yeah, it's that simple. any idiot can coach a nba team. i guess you would be exempt.

RaysFan
05-12-2010, 12:40 AM
You can't win a title by not practicing defense. A Mike D'Antoni coached team will never win the NBA Title. Period.

And the fact that he compared his team to Orlando's is just unreal. Is he really that clueless? Orlando might be the best defensive team in the game.

Voodoo Alchemy
05-12-2010, 01:49 AM
You can't win a title by not practicing defense. A Mike D'Antoni coached team will never win the NBA Title. Period.

And the fact that he compared his team to Orlando's is just unreal. Is he really that clueless? Orlando might be the best defensive team in the game.

he won a few titles in europe, does that count?

heathonater
05-12-2010, 03:59 AM
yeah orlando shoots alot of 3's and plays uptempo, but they also have by far the best defensive center in the league. the only way an uptempo offense can win a championship is if you got an anchor down low that blocks scoring in the paint.

Tony_Starks
05-12-2010, 01:13 PM
You obviously don't watch the Magic much...

1. Dwight is the #1 option, with Carter #2, while Nelson and Shard get around the same touches.

2. Orlando plays inside-out, they dump the ball into Howard, he goes to work, when teams start to double, he dishes and the ball is moved around for the open 3. The p&r is a weapon the Magic use a lot, agreed, but they use it when they're doubling Dwight on touch, or in the 4th (because of Dwight's FTs), primarily, they go inside-out.

3. Dwight's assist numbers are never too high because they don't just take the first shot available, they swing the ball to try and find the most open look.

4. Dwight's shot attempts are a result of overwhelming double teams and blowouts. I watched every Magic game this season and there was not even one team that wasn't forced to double at some point in the game. The Magic led the league in pt-differential, they would blow out their opponents regularly and would let their bench play in the 4th, a big reason why JJ Redick is their leader for 4th quarter scoring.

5. The Suns run the 4th fastest pace in the league, behind the Warriors, Pacers and Wolves. They also rank in the bottom third for dEFF, difference between them and those other teams is that they rank 1st in the in oEFF. The Magic run the 18th fastest pace and they finished 2nd in oEFF and 1st in dEFF, they do it on both ends because they run more half-court sets with Dwight in the paint, posting up Shard, Carter or p&r with Dwight-Nelson.

If you watch more games, you'll come to know that they run a lot of plays for Dwight, especially in the first 3 quarters and early in the 4th, watch the ECFs and then let me know what you've observed... Regardless, they play a completely different game than the Suns, the only thing in common, is that they both love the 3pt shot, for very different reasons.




Good break down man. Inside out basketball has nothing to do with the post players shot attempts its all about where the offense starts. Thats the difference between Orlando and the Knicks. Orlando dumps it down to Dwight, spreads the floor and after a kick out and at least one swing they're shooting a open three. They also play defense which allows them to fast break and run to the 3 point line and spot up in transition.

The Knicks come down and pass the ball around the perimiter for about 10 seconds with no penetration before jacking up a contested 3. They also play no D so there's no opportunity for open court 3's because they're constantly taking the ball out of the basket.

In conclusion, D'Antoni is the most overrated coach in basketball.

JNA17
05-12-2010, 01:15 PM
he won a few titles in europe, does that count?

in the NBA, not even close.

king4day
05-12-2010, 01:25 PM
I haven't looked it up, but there is a thread on the knicks forum where posters have proven that D'antoni's Suns teams were ranked higher defensively each year than this years Suns team, but I agree with him that Orlando, last year and this year, and Suns to a lesser degree have proven that 3 point shooting teams can go deep in the playoffs and get to the finals. The fact that you have to play defense is a given, but they prove that those types of teams can run, shoot the 3 ball, and play D while leading to Ws

It did take a while for this Suns team to click defensively. Earlier in the year it was like the olden days.
As the year went on, we got better.
While Coach D isn't defensive minded, I believe his biggest flaw was not building a bench.

The Final Boss
05-12-2010, 01:44 PM
He's an attention whore. Should be kicking it with Lebron...Oh, wait, did I just say that out loud?

MSG34
05-12-2010, 02:03 PM
yeah orlando shoots alot of 3's and plays uptempo, but they also have by far the best defensive center in the league. the only way an uptempo offense can win a championship is if you got an anchor down low that blocks scoring in the paint.

Or possibly, a PG who is that good (Nash should have won the year Amare and Diaw were suspended). Two of the knicks biggest wholes are PG and C.

Raph12
05-12-2010, 02:39 PM
yeah orlando shoots alot of 3's and plays uptempo, but they also have by far the best defensive center in the league. the only way an uptempo offense can win a championship is if you got an anchor down low that blocks scoring in the paint.

Orlando runs the 18th fastest pace team in the league, how is that uptempo?... If anything, we're in the bottom half.

lakersrock
05-18-2010, 11:54 PM
Boston and LA - 3

Orlando and Phoenix - 0

Good call dantoni.

JasonJohnHorn
05-19-2010, 08:38 AM
Great plan D'Antoni... because both those teams are looking to be on the outside looking in when it comes to the finals.

Um... perhaps use LA as a bleu print, or the Spurs, since those two teams have won 8 of the last 11 titles.

Epic fail!

Truheatfan
05-19-2010, 09:31 AM
hes an idiot, coach some defense and run some real offensive sets instead of run up the court and take a ******** shot.

domz248
05-19-2010, 09:42 AM
magic fans really thought they had a chance lol no ring this year

TheWatcher34
05-19-2010, 10:37 AM
"that's how we have to play to win a championship...." that comparison doesnt work because neither of these two teams is making it to the finals !!!!! The knicks should start thinking about defense...if they have any questions they can call Tom Thibodeau

ink
05-19-2010, 10:50 AM
It did take a while for this Suns team to click defensively. Earlier in the year it was like the olden days.
As the year went on, we got better.
While Coach D isn't defensive minded, I believe his biggest flaw was not building a bench.

Totally agree. And look at how productive the bench is now under Gentry.

JeffFrankGore
05-19-2010, 10:53 AM
So basically... What he wants the knicks to accomplish is to create a team that will lose to the Lakers..