PDA

View Full Version : The Art of Dismantling the Cubs



LaToyaHawkins
05-06-2010, 11:20 PM
We have been swept by the Pirates. Realistically, this team as currently constructed will not win a World Series. Teams like the Phillies, Cardinals, and Giants will murder us. So we have to do what's in the best interest of the team; wave the white flag. And wave it ASAP. And even though the dismantling of the roster should begin immediately -- nothing happens over night. This transformation is sadly a three year process.

And so we start with doing some unpopular moves. The first of which is trading Ted Lilly. Lilly hasn't found his groove yet but every one knows he's a bulldog. Lilly absolutely has value and teams will pony up high-end prospects for him. I love him to death and he's far and away our best starter -- but we need to move him. We need to build from the farm system up.

The second move is letting Derrek Lee walk after the season. D-Lee is not a centerpiece middle of the order hitter on a championship team. Not anymore at least (if he ever was). The team is clearly missing bonafide 3 and 4-hole hitters. And so we start the difficult process of finding pieces who genuinely scare pitchers. Derrek Lee doesn't scare anybody at this point.

Aramis Ramirez is not going to opt-out. Not when he's hitting .150. But I believe he still comes off the books in a year -- alongside Fukudome. And we let both of them walk.

The art of dismantling the team really isn't a art, at all. It's trading anybody of value for prospects and letting high-paid losers walk when their miserable contracts expire. Goodbye Hendry. Goodbye Lou. Goodbye Derrek Lee, Ted Lilly, Aramis Ramirez, and Fukudome. Yup. The three plan. Sit back and enjoy the 220 wins we'll get over the next 3 years until these pathetic piece of crap players leave.

Mell413
05-06-2010, 11:31 PM
I believe Lee was a middle of the lineup hitter when the Marlins won the world seres.

croce_99
05-06-2010, 11:33 PM
The Cubs had a 3-4 year window of opportunity to win it all with the contracts they signed. Players obviously age and decrease in production. That's certainly showing this year.

There's no such thing as a 7 week slump. What you see is what you get. Obviously ARam won't finish the season hitting UNDER .200. But he probably won't get much higher than that.

Again, the Cubs went for the gold years ago and they came close. Now it's a slow decline until they get to unload a few heavy contracts and try again.

CubbieSteve
05-06-2010, 11:35 PM
It's still too early to decide on a fire sale or not.

But like I've said before, if this team is 10 games in the hole in late June or July, then go ahead and trade our current stars for prospects.

It was a pretty good attempt by the Cubs. Opening up the wallets for players, bringing in Lou, etc. But it's clear that 2008 was our year to do it and we didn't take care of business. It is apparent (at least to me) that they aren't going to win anything this year so might as well look towards the future.

turnaround3
05-06-2010, 11:37 PM
The Cubs had a 3-4 year window of opportunity to win it all with the contracts they signed. Players obviously age and decrease in production. That's certainly showing this year.

There's no such thing as a 7 week slump. What you see is what you get. Obviously ARam won't finish the season hitting UNDER .200. But he probably won't get much higher than that.

Again, the Cubs went for the gold years ago and they came close. Now it's a slow decline until they get to unload a few heavy contracts and try again.

God this is depressing.

Pirate sweep and all, I'm still not willing to give up on a 162 game season in the first half of May.

croce_99
05-06-2010, 11:41 PM
God this is depressing.

Pirate sweep and all, I'm still not willing to give up on a 162 game season in the first half of May.

Nobody should give up when you're only 5 games out of first in the division and less than that in the wild card.

But anyone that thinks this team will win 87+ games is out of their mind.
Next week the Cubs could easily win 3 in a row again and people will start talking wild card :laugh2:

But if this team is going to contend, there has to be a change or two. Lou makes these ridiculous decisions, but when it's all said and done, the players HAVE to perform on the field. 3 errors with rarely anyone getting on base isn't Lous fault. It's the players not doing their job.

Hopefully we can bring up a minor league player or two so they can give the team a new look. What we have now certainly isn't working.

toovey107
05-06-2010, 11:59 PM
A Ram will bounce back , I firmly believe that.

Paints
05-07-2010, 12:05 AM
Nobody is going to give us any good prospects for our players because they are way overpaid. We would have to eat close to 75-100mil to get anything worth of value. Plus everybody has a no trade clause.

If we are going to start this rebuilding process then we need to start at the top. Clean house and get it over with. Crane, Jim and Lou all gone. And that should start ASAP. Let trammel finish the year and then go from there. I know Ryno will eventually be the manager but i think he still isnt ready.

But it is still early in the year. the starting pitching is decent well sep for today. The bullpen seems to be atleast getting it together. The team is hitting good except the big guns. If they all start hitting then we should be in good shape.

croce_99
05-07-2010, 12:05 AM
A Ram will bounce back , I firmly believe that.

What makes you think that? It's not like he's hitting the ball hard lately and getting "unlucky".

He looks horrible right now

Str1fe5
05-07-2010, 12:45 AM
What makes you think that? It's not like he's hitting the ball hard lately and getting "unlucky".

He looks horrible right now

barely above .200? I mean this team isn't that good but A-Ram didn't become a replacement level hitter overnight. Come on man.

Cubby
05-07-2010, 12:49 AM
A few weeks ago I thought Aramis would get out of this around a week ago. It hasn't happened. I've lost quite a bit of faith in him, especially since he's come up with runners on, and when he normally gets a hit, he chases the outside pitch, grounds into a double play, or pops it up in the infield. I still believe Lee will get out of the funk. I'm not sure about Aramis anymore. And eventually Wells was going to have a bad game, but if we score 2 runs again, it won't ****ing matter.

Cubby
05-07-2010, 12:52 AM
And besides, LaToyaHawkins, these are the guys that are making millions playing what they love. Don't say they're pathetic pieces of crap because you're the one sitting on your couch, so please don't say anything. I tried to say that without swearing a bunch in my head. ;)

Second City
05-07-2010, 01:03 AM
I actually was talking about this today. And it is a very difficult decision that has to be made soon. I personally believe that this current team is not even a playoff team and they will not get better. Obviously the goal to trade away players with some worth for young prospects, get rid of bad contracts and develop the current young players that we have.

Keepers (younger players):
Geo, Colvin, Marshall, Wells, Marmol

Trade for value (really good prospects):
ARam, Theriot, Lilly, Dempster, Fukudome

Contract Dumps (Get anything you can for them):
Big Z, Soriano, Lee

Also if we are doing a fire sale then we might as well get rid of Lou and Hendry because they can't get the job done. That is evident.
Plug in any young players and let's see what they can do. But either way we will gain a lot of money to spend in free agency and a young core to hopefully take the CUbs somewhere.

Because in the end making the playoffs is nice and fun but the ultimate goal is to build a team that can take you to the WS and win it. And the last 2 years we have been basically putting a band aid on the problem and I think that this year the band aid is finally coming off.

Just my 2 cents

croce_99
05-07-2010, 01:27 AM
barely above .200? I mean this team isn't that good but A-Ram didn't become a replacement level hitter overnight. Come on man.

We're 6-7 weeks into the season already. Like I mentioned earlier, a slump isn't weeks long. A slump is a week or two.

Aram was also injured for 50% of the games last year. It's not like he's coming into 2010 with a huge year behind him.
He's a career .283 hitter. I'll stand by my words that he will not finish the season higher than in the lower .200s batting.

His K/BB ratio is exactly 3:1 He's not taking walks and he's not even making contact with the ball.
The season is nearly 20% over with. Obviously there's a ton of baseball to be played, but with over 100 at bats already in place, it's going to take weeks of "soriano ball" to get his stats back up to respectable.

ty_smitty21
05-07-2010, 01:55 AM
We're 6-7 weeks into the season already. Like I mentioned earlier, a slump isn't weeks long. A slump is a week or two.

Aram was also injured for 50% of the games last year. It's not like he's coming into 2010 with a huge year behind him.
He's a career .283 hitter. I'll stand by my words that he will not finish the season higher than in the lower .200s batting.

His K/BB ratio is exactly 3:1 He's not taking walks and he's even making contact with the ball.
The season is nearly 20% over with. Obviously there's a ton of baseball to be played, but with over 100 at bats already in place, it's going to take weeks of "soriano ball" to get his stats back up to respectable.

I agree with you on some things.. but definitely not on Ramirez. The guy had almost an rbi per game last year in his half season. He's been absolutely one of the most productive and most consistent Cubs of all time. He's been here for 7 years, and has been great in every year. He will NOT hit in the low 200s.

I think this team can make the right moves and be a contender as early as next season. Think about this:

-Trade Lilly for good prospects... try and trade Fukudome as a salary dump in the offseason... Only resign Lee if his price tag is way down. He might not be a 3 hitter anymore, but he's still a darn good player.. don't forget he took off in May of last year too. Try and trade soriano and zambrano.. even trading one of them would be a big boost to our money situation.

-Then... go and get a true ace pitcher, and a true middle of the order guy.. via trade or free agency. Let Colvin and Castro play every day, and possibly Vitters if he's ready. Add a few bullpen arms.

-All of a sudden, this team looks much better and has some youth, some vets, more speed, more defense, more athleticism, a true ace, and a better bullpen.

-Lou and Hendry will both be gone by 2011.

Vandelay16
05-07-2010, 02:13 AM
It's gonna make me sad to watch these guys go, despite all the bad memories they have also given me some of the best. That is how baseball is though, can't have the same team forever.

I'm sure everyone wishes that special 2008 team was more intact today. I know I do.

Ron!n
05-07-2010, 03:15 AM
A fire sale is not going to happen. A team like the Cubs cant afford it.

I could see a bit of reshuffling but other than that dont get your hopes up.

JayBandit
05-07-2010, 08:02 AM
The real problem isn't the guys that will be gone in a year or two anyway, it's contracts like Soriano that we're stuck with for another 4+ years and $90+ million. There is no way we can trade him away without eating over half of that money, so we might as well just keep him and worse case pay him to sit on the bench. I'm not saying we have to do this now (obviously he's playing well), but just imagine what he's going to be like in 3 years from now...eek!

FloridaCubbie
05-07-2010, 08:26 AM
One thing needs to happen first before you trade anyone.......fire Hendry. He has proven to make bad trades and I do not want him involved. Next, you fire Lou and put Trammel in charge for the rest of the year. Lou tinkers too much and nobody can get comfortable. You can't trade your whole team away, so trade a couple and try to at least be competitive and fill the seats and keep the cash flow going.

If none of this happens I would at least like to see Lou leave the lineup alone for at least a week and see what happens.

cubsneedmiracle
05-07-2010, 09:47 AM
This offseason quite a few changes need to be made..

Mell413
05-07-2010, 09:49 AM
One thing needs to happen first before you trade anyone.......fire Hendry. He has proven to make bad trades and I do not want him involved. Next, you fire Lou and put Trammel in charge for the rest of the year. Lou tinkers too much and nobody can get comfortable. You can't trade your whole team away, so trade a couple and try to at least be competitive and fill the seats and keep the cash flow going.

If none of this happens I would at least like to see Lou leave the lineup alone for at least a week and see what happens.

Hendry has his faults, but he has done well with his trades with the exception of the Nolasco deal.

cubsneedmiracle
05-07-2010, 09:52 AM
I agree with you on some things.. but definitely not on Ramirez. The guy had almost an rbi per game last year in his half season. He's been absolutely one of the most productive and most consistent Cubs of all time. He's been here for 7 years, and has been great in every year. He will NOT hit in the low 200s.

I think this team can make the right moves and be a contender as early as next season. Think about this:

-Trade Lilly for good prospects... try and trade Fukudome as a salary dump in the offseason... Only resign Lee if his price tag is way down. He might not be a 3 hitter anymore, but he's still a darn good player.. don't forget he took off in May of last year too. Try and trade soriano and zambrano.. even trading one of them would be a big boost to our money situation.

-Then... go and get a true ace pitcher, and a true middle of the order guy.. via trade or free agency. Let Colvin and Castro play every day, and possibly Vitters if he's ready. Add a few bullpen arms.

-All of a sudden, this team looks much better and has some youth, some vets, more speed, more defense, more athleticism, a true ace, and a better bullpen.

-Lou and Hendry will both be gone by 2011.

Vitters and Castro are a little suspect as of now in that department.

Milnertime
05-07-2010, 09:52 AM
We're 6-7 weeks into the season already. Like I mentioned earlier, a slump isn't weeks long. A slump is a week or two.

Aram was also injured for 50% of the games last year. It's not like he's coming into 2010 with a huge year behind him.
He's a career .283 hitter. I'll stand by my words that he will not finish the season higher than in the lower .200s batting.

His K/BB ratio is exactly 3:1 He's not taking walks and he's not even making contact with the ball.
The season is nearly 20% over with. Obviously there's a ton of baseball to be played, but with over 100 at bats already in place, it's going to take weeks of "soriano ball" to get his stats back up to respectable.
No offense Croce, but you sound kind of stupid when you say the season is 6-7 weeks old. We aren't even through the end of the 5th week yet.


Just look at the team's performance in 2007 through this many games and tell me that this team can't turn it around. This team is better than the 2007 one, IMO.


Also, as far as Ramirez is concerned, the goal isn't to get his overall stats at a respectable level. The goal is to get his statistics from today forward at his normal level. Expecting him to become super human to fulfill the expected overall production for the season is unrealistic. What happened in April and the beginning of May is irrelevant if he starts hitting today.

Mell413
05-07-2010, 09:57 AM
Most of the contracts will be coming off the books soon. The only really bad long term deal is Soriano. They would probably have to eat at least half of the deal in order to move him. I also don't think we have a replacement ready for him yet. If Colvin proves he can hit it may make that decision easier.

If the team is out of it come July I would have no problems dealing Lee and Lilly. I don't think the Cubs will do a firesale. I just don't see a large market team doing it. The Cubs could probably get a decent haul for some of our guys should they decide to move them. This is kind of the price you pay for going for it.

hrubes20
05-07-2010, 10:22 AM
We're 6-7 weeks into the season already. Like I mentioned earlier, a slump isn't weeks long. A slump is a week or two.
Aram was also injured for 50% of the games last year. It's not like he's coming into 2010 with a huge year behind him.
He's a career .283 hitter. I'll stand by my words that he will not finish the season higher than in the lower .200s batting.

His K/BB ratio is exactly 3:1 He's not taking walks and he's not even making contact with the ball.
The season is nearly 20% over with. Obviously there's a ton of baseball to be played, but with over 100 at bats already in place, it's going to take weeks of "soriano ball" to get his stats back up to respectable.

Tell that to Mark Texeira, who is worthless for the first 6-7 weeks of the season each year. Or David Ortiz, who was abysmal until June of last year, then turned into one of the best hitters in the league. Or even D-Lee last year, who after 74 ABs in April, was hitting a robust .189/.253/.284. He ended up having arguably the 2nd best year of his career. Slumps DO last that long.

With that said, Aramis certainly is looking horrible out there. I wonder if his shoulder isn't still hurting him, because his bat speed looks really slow this year.

thornga2
05-07-2010, 10:41 AM
I think a gradual overhaul is the necessary course of action. Doing it in one year isn't realistic. Just for fun, here is a quick mock overhaul.

This Year

Load up with pitching prospects in the draft

Wells, Gorzelany, and Marshall to the Brewers for Mat Gamel and Brett Lawrie

The Brewers are going to lock up Fielder, but to do so they need to show him that they have the pitching to contend. But it also has to be cheap, because Prince will cost a pretty penny. Gamel is blocked, and the Brewers like Weeks and McGahee at 2B and 3B, so Lawrie kinda is too. Good trade for both sides, because the Cubs have the arms to replace these guys in AAA. Trades in the division aren't common, but when the shoe fits, the shoe fits.

Keep Lily and Lee til the end of the year, and continue to "make a run" at the wilcard. After the season, let them expire. If they are good enough that they would decline arb, then get picks. If not, then just let them go. Gamel is your new everyday 1B in 2011.

Trade Fukudome
I think after another season of disappointment in Chicago, Fukudome would embrace a change of scenery for his contract year. The Cubs will have to eat a bit of Salary, but its only for a year. The return would probably be a young bullpen arm.


2011
The team looks similar, except with Colvin in RF, Gamel at 1B, Cashner and Jackson in the rotation, and Castro sliding Theriot over to 2B.

At the deadline, trade Byrd for a prospect
Byrd's contract is very tradeable, and the callup of Brett Jackson makes this a relatively easy sell to the fan base.

Let the Ramirez, Silva, and Grabow contracts expire.

Dump Soriano
By then, I think Soriano would accept a trade to a specific team. Plus, he would only have two years left on his deal. If the Cubs ate 10 million a year, then he would be tradeable. That's a lot to eat, but only for two years.

2012
The only remaining large contracts would be Zambrano for two years and Dempster for one. I don't see those guys being dealt. Z would be tough to move, and I don't think Dempster would accept a trade.

So the overhauled 2012 lineup would be

1. Brett Jackson CF
2. Starlin Castro SS
3. Mat Gamel 1B
4. Josh Vitters LF
5. Tyler Colvin RF
6. Brett Lawrie 3B
7. Ryan Theriot 2B
8. Geovany Soto C

Carlos Zambrano
Ryan Dempster
Andrew Cashner
Jay Jackson
Casey Coleman

The bullpen is too difficult to predict. Marmol would still be there though.

cubsneedmiracle
05-07-2010, 11:24 AM
I think a gradual overhaul is the necessary course of action. Doing it in one year isn't realistic. Just for fun, here is a quick mock overhaul.

This Year

Load up with pitching prospects in the draft

Wells, Gorzelany, and Marshall to the Brewers for Mat Gamel and Brett Lawrie

The Brewers are going to lock up Fielder, but to do so they need to show him that they have the pitching to contend. But it also has to be cheap, because Prince will cost a pretty penny. Gamel is blocked, and the Brewers like Weeks and McGahee at 2B and 3B, so Lawrie kinda is too. Good trade for both sides, because the Cubs have the arms to replace these guys in AAA. Trades in the division aren't common, but when the shoe fits, the shoe fits.

Keep Lily and Lee til the end of the year, and continue to "make a run" at the wilcard. After the season, let them expire. If they are good enough that they would decline arb, then get picks. If not, then just let them go. Gamel is your new everyday 1B in 2011.

Trade Fukudome
I think after another season of disappointment in Chicago, Fukudome would embrace a change of scenery for his contract year. The Cubs will have to eat a bit of Salary, but its only for a year. The return would probably be a young bullpen arm.


2011
The team looks similar, except with Colvin in RF, Gamel at 1B, Cashner and Jackson in the rotation, and Castro sliding Theriot over to 2B.

At the deadline, trade Byrd for a prospect
Byrd's contract is very tradeable, and the callup of Brett Jackson makes this a relatively easy sell to the fan base.

Let the Ramirez, Silva, and Grabow contracts expire.

Dump Soriano
By then, I think Soriano would accept a trade to a specific team. Plus, he would only have two years left on his deal. If the Cubs ate 10 million a year, then he would be tradeable. That's a lot to eat, but only for two years.

2012
The only remaining large contracts would be Zambrano for two years and Dempster for one. I don't see those guys being dealt. Z would be tough to move, and I don't think Dempster would accept a trade.

So the overhauled 2012 lineup would be

1. Brett Jackson CF
2. Starlin Castro SS
3. Mat Gamel 1B
4. Josh Vitters LF
5. Tyler Colvin RF
6. Brett Lawrie 3B
7. Ryan Theriot 2B
8. Geovany Soto C

Carlos Zambrano
Ryan Dempster
Andrew Cashner
Jay Jackson
Casey Coleman

The bullpen is too difficult to predict. Marmol would still be there though.

Whatever you're on.. pass it over here..

Vandelay16
05-07-2010, 11:34 AM
nevermind

croce_99
05-07-2010, 11:51 AM
Just look at the team's performance in 2007 through this many games and tell me that this team can't turn it around. This team is better than the 2007 one, IMO.9
I don't think I ever said the team can't turn it around. Matter of fact, I said either in this thread or another one "If you're 5 game back of first, or less than that for the wild card, there's no reason to give up"



Also, as far as Ramirez is concerned, the goal isn't to get his overall stats at a respectable level. The goal is to get his statistics from today forward at his normal level. Expecting him to become super human to fulfill the expected overall production for the season is unrealistic. What happened in April and the beginning of May is irrelevant if he starts hitting today.
And like I mentioned earlier, if Ramirez was hitting the ball hard and right at someone, then I wouldn't be so concerned with him. But he looks lost at the plate and that isn't something that can change overnight.

LaToyaHawkins
05-07-2010, 01:35 PM
There have been some interesting responses. The Aramis debate is intriguing. Ramirez finishing the season with a BA in the low .200's would be a huge surprise. My opinion is he'll finish around .250-.260 -- below his career average. He looks lost at the plate. I've never really seen him look so lost. It's really disappointing.

I hope this isn't the case, but it's kinda reminding me of David Ortiz last year. Sometimes star players decline seemingly out of no where. Let's hope the light goes on and he goes on a torrid pace.

4cubs
05-07-2010, 02:02 PM
A fire sale is not going to happen. A team like the Cubs cant afford it.

I could see a bit of reshuffling but other than that dont get your hopes up.
I disagree.

The Cubs are probably the team that could most afford it in MLB.

The fans are going to show up, period. Fan loyalty is the trademark of the Chicago Cubs fan base. The Tribune counted on that for years. Either way I think the waiting list for season tickets is still large enough to absorb some desertion during the process.

That being said, if it is spun right, a fire sale might be even be embraced by the majority of Cubs fans.

"Clearing big burdensome contracts" "Young and exciting" "Raw potential"

Mix that with a couple of key free agent acquisitions and Cubs fans are excited all over again (and maybe for good reason).

4cubs
05-07-2010, 02:07 PM
...
Also, as far as Ramirez is concerned, the goal isn't to get his overall stats at a respectable level. The goal is to get his statistics from today forward at his normal level. Expecting him to become super human to fulfill the expected overall production for the season is unrealistic. What happened in April and the beginning of May is irrelevant if he starts hitting today.I agree with you here.

The key of course is when/if he starts hitting.

Acronym
05-07-2010, 02:53 PM
I personally have zero faith in A-Ram turning it around. He looks awful. His bat is slow. His selectiveness is way back down from '08 levels.

Everybody was waiting for Soriano to turn it around last year... all year long. He was hurt, but who knows how much it really affected him. He kept playing, after all. And Ramirez is coming off the worst injury of his career last season, so the situation really isn't much different.

This team won't be in even the wild card hunt by July the way they're playing now. Could they turn it around? Maybe. But I've seen too many maybes the last two years to have any faith in them.

And on top of it Hendry is hitting the panic button. Expect a ******** "I'm trying to save my job!" trade from him any day now.

Captain Obvious
05-07-2010, 04:49 PM
One thing needs to happen first before you trade anyone.......fire Hendry. He has proven to make bad trades and I do not want him involved. Next, you fire Lou and put Trammel in charge for the rest of the year. Lou tinkers too much and nobody can get comfortable. You can't trade your whole team away, so trade a couple and try to at least be competitive and fill the seats and keep the cash flow going.

If none of this happens I would at least like to see Lou leave the lineup alone for at least a week and see what happens.

Bad Trades? Ramirez and Lofton, Harden, Derrek Lee.... yeah, those sucked.

jiggin
05-07-2010, 05:35 PM
yeah...5 games out in May.


Throw in the towel. LOL


This thread and the posts calling for management and players heads is hilarious.

And you wonder why Cubs fans get such a bad rap about over reacting, over analyzing and over valuing players.

Jeezzz guys...come on. ITS THE BEGINNING OF F-ing' MAY! LOL

LaToyaHawkins
05-07-2010, 11:46 PM
yeah...5 games out in May.


Throw in the towel. LOL


This thread and the posts calling for management and players heads is hilarious.

And you wonder why Cubs fans get such a bad rap about over reacting, over analyzing and over valuing players.

Jeezzz guys...come on. ITS THE BEGINNING OF F-ing' MAY! LOL

I don't care if it's May, July, or August. You cannot get swept by the Pirates. You have to realistically ask yourself if you honestly believe we're better than the Phillies, Cardinals, or Giants. If you say no, they you have to accept the fact we will not win the World Series this year. And if winning the World Series is not a realistic option, we need to do whats in the best interest of this franchise. The best interest of the franchise is stocking the farm system and shedding albatross contracts.

jiggin
05-08-2010, 12:44 AM
I don't care if it's May, July, or August. You cannot get swept by the Pirates. You have to realistically ask yourself if you honestly believe we're better than the Phillies, Cardinals, or Giants. If you say no, they you have to accept the fact we will not win the World Series this year. And if winning the World Series is not a realistic option, we need to do whats in the best interest of this franchise. The best interest of the franchise is stocking the farm system and shedding albatross contracts.

cubs just have to stay on track and make the playoffs. from there its just as much timing as skill, who is hot at the right time.

playoffs are a crap shoot, you don't have to be the best team, just the best team at that time to win it all.

Cubs should not panic at this point. Panic will only make things worse and make piss poor decisions because of overreacting to the situation.

If the Cubs are going to throw in the towel at the beginning of May just 5 games back in the division...I need to stop following them; it would be too sad to watch them make such a horrible decision with the season so young.

windycityD
05-08-2010, 09:52 AM
cubs just have to stay on track and make the playoffs. from there its just as much timing as skill, who is hot at the right time.

playoffs are a crap shoot, you don't have to be the best team, just the best team at that time to win it all.

Cubs should not panic at this point. Panic will only make things worse and make piss poor decisions because of overreacting to the situation.

If the Cubs are going to throw in the towel at the beginning of May just 5 games back in the division...I need to stop following them; it would be too sad to watch them make such a horrible decision with the season so young.

The "right" decision come mid July, IF by then we're in a season not really going anywhere, wont be made as long as Hendry's job is on the line. Lou is essentially a non-factor. He's in his last year of his contract. Lots of time before that hypothetical comes to bear, but if it does, the prudent move would be to attempt to unload key pieces to re-load for 2011 and 2012. In no way, shape, or form are we in a blow it all up reality ala Florida. You can't move contracts like Soriano's and Fukudome's and would not really want to part with A Ram, who we could keep into 2012 if he does not invoke his opt-out clause after this season. Players such as Gorzo & Silva have value for the 2011 rotation and are essentially cheap.

The three best trade pieces we have come July under that scenario are in order (considering remaining salary then vs. performance): Lilly, Lee (NTC) and Zambrano (NTC). If you could get Lee and Z to waive their NTC, Boston would pony up for both imo. Lilly would also fetch a very solid return for any number of clubs, NL and AL. From those three players, you'd re-tool significantly and/ or get specs back to use in future deals. Theriot and Grabow (See Eyre- yeah, Grabow could have limited value come July for a contending team desperate enough, looking for pen help) are two lesser pieces you could also include in the re-tool plan.

LaToyaHawkins
05-08-2010, 05:29 PM
I do agree that finding a trading partner in May would be difficult. I'm just saying that we cannot play this season out in denial. If it becomes apparent that we have no shot against legit contenders (STL, Philly, SF) then we need to acknowledge it and proceed accordingly. I believe we'll know sooner rather than later.

d00d
05-08-2010, 11:18 PM
Again, the Cubs went for the gold years ago and they came close.

you call winning a total of ZERO playoff games close?

or are you going back to 03?

chicagofan71
05-08-2010, 11:41 PM
you call winning a total of ZERO playoff games close?

or are you going back to 03?

I don't care about our lack of playoff wins, this team came damn close. That 08 team was scary good

croce_99
05-08-2010, 11:51 PM
you call winning a total of ZERO playoff games close?

or are you going back to 03?

Don't forget what they did in the regular season. 97 regular season wins.
They had the team to win it all.

Of course they choked in the playoffs, but that doesn't take away that they had the team to win the world series

BcEuAbRsS
05-09-2010, 10:27 AM
Guys guys guys... we have castro up now... all is good...

zack4070
05-09-2010, 08:00 PM
I just want a new team. I like Castro and Colvin and even Soto isn't bad for his position. But I don't care about Theriot, Fuku or Sori. ARam and DLee should be delegated to 5 and 6 hitters for the rest of their career. Ricketts say he has some money if needed. So trade some of these fools and fire who needs to go and maybe in 2012 we can do something. Ill be watching the new Bulls and the Bears for the next couple years because the Cubs ain't gonna do nothing...

Captain Obvious
05-09-2010, 08:52 PM
I just want a new team. I like Castro and Colvin and even Soto isn't bad for his position. But I don't care about Theriot, Fuku or Sori. ARam and DLee should be delegated to 5 and 6 hitters for the rest of their career. Ricketts say he has some money if needed. So trade some of these fools and fire who needs to go and maybe in 2012 we can do something. Ill be watching the new Bulls and the Bears for the next couple years because the Cubs ain't gonna do nothing...

Just because you don't like Fuku and Sori doesn't mean they suck. They have been two of the better players on the team in their time with the team.

You want to take ~130 PA's and make a career changing move for two players that have been the best on the team in the past few years. I would like to make a motion that in order to have an account on here, you have to have an IQ above 6.

I also like how you leave the team after a bad month. You are what we call a die-hard, my friend.

CubbieSteve
05-09-2010, 09:26 PM
I just want a new team. I like Castro and Colvin and even Soto isn't bad for his position. But I don't care about Theriot, Fuku or Sori. ARam and DLee should be delegated to 5 and 6 hitters for the rest of their career. Ricketts say he has some money if needed. So trade some of these fools and fire who needs to go and maybe in 2012 we can do something. Ill be watching the new Bulls and the Bears for the next couple years because the Cubs ain't gonna do nothing...

If you've been a Cub fan for your whole life, then this is nothing. Suck it up.

justndav
05-10-2010, 06:00 AM
I dont see us making any major moves until early/mid July. If we are still in bad shape teams will be calling us about Derek Lee, Carlos Zambrano, Aramis Ramirez (assuming he kicks it into gear), Ted Lilly, and possibly Fukudome. Lilly, Lee, Zambrano would probably net us the most potentially in trades... and if a team like Boston is desparate you might be able to rake them over the coals in a deal and come away with an awesome package of talent. The reality is, though, that we may not get as much as we think for a guy like Lilly or Lee since they are in the last year of their contracts... but again if a team out there is desparate you never know.

The reality of the situation that is the 2010 Cubs is that we are not beating the teams that we should if we are a playoff caliber team... playoff caliber teams will get swept at times but not usually by the likes of the Pirates. We need the guys to start hitting, we need the bullpen to start doing their job on a consistent basis, and we need better defense than what has been shown to make a run and turn this around... perhaps moving Castro up was the first move to get this going who knows.

Also folks... the Cubs are a major market team I dont think you'll ever see a team of no names make up the entire roster- by no names I mean having a team full of first, second, third year players... it will always generally be a team built by a few of our prospects mixed in with a lot of FA signings and players acquired via trade. Most successful teams use their farm system to acquire players and perhaps identify one or two players from that farm system they want to keep for their use only.

zack4070
05-10-2010, 11:06 AM
Just because you don't like Fuku and Sori doesn't mean they suck. They have been two of the better players on the team in their time with the team.

You want to take ~130 PA's and make a career changing move for two players that have been the best on the team in the past few years. I would like to make a motion that in order to have an account on here, you have to have an IQ above 6.

I also like how you leave the team after a bad month. You are what we call a die-hard, my friend.
Your first paragraph is a complete FAIL!
So is your 2nd!
3rd Paragraph - Given the history of the Cubs and how they usually, thats the key word, Fail like you. I don't have much faith. I want them to win but its hard to believe they will since the Cubs seem to be the worst clutch team in the world right now.

And your an idiot for your IQ comment Captain D-Bag...

zack4070
05-10-2010, 11:21 AM
If you've been a Cub fan for your whole life, then this is nothing. Suck it up.
You're Right

windycityD
05-10-2010, 11:42 AM
I dont see us making any major moves until early/mid July. If we are still in bad shape teams will be calling us about Derek Lee, Carlos Zambrano, Aramis Ramirez (assuming he kicks it into gear), Ted Lilly, and possibly Fukudome. Lilly, Lee, Zambrano would probably net us the most potentially in trades... and if a team like Boston is desparate you might be able to rake them over the coals in a deal and come away with an awesome package of talent. The reality is, though, that we may not get as much as we think for a guy like Lilly or Lee since they are in the last year of their contracts... but again if a team out there is desparate you never know.

The reality of the situation that is the 2010 Cubs is that we are not beating the teams that we should if we are a playoff caliber team... playoff caliber teams will get swept at times but not usually by the likes of the Pirates. We need the guys to start hitting, we need the bullpen to start doing their job on a consistent basis, and we need better defense than what has been shown to make a run and turn this around... perhaps moving Castro up was the first move to get this going who knows.

Also folks... the Cubs are a major market team I dont think you'll ever see a team of no names make up the entire roster- by no names I mean having a team full of first, second, third year players... it will always generally be a team built by a few of our prospects mixed in with a lot of FA signings and players acquired via trade. Most successful teams use their farm system to acquire players and perhaps identify one or two players from that farm system they want to keep for their use only.

Lilly and Lee (assuming he rebounds, hits like he has) would have significant trade value. They would also both be Type A free agents. So even if they were dealt and walked from the respective club, entered the open market, that club would have the assurance of draft picks. No GM worth his salt in a Pennant race needing to add key parts would pass on Lee and Lilly considering their past track records, of that I'm certain. I'm also convinced that a team like Boston would pony up large for them (Buchholz+).

A Ram and Zambrano are two diff animals. In the case of A Ram, that opt out clause after this season is a major consideration for us and any potential suitors. I would hope we do not try to deal him and that he stays thr 2012. Vitters is nowhere near ready, if in fact he's even a 3b at all. A Ram's older and having a piss poor season so far coming off of injury, but the guy has lots of life left in that bat and glove. In the case of Zambrano, to deal him, the trade partner would have to have payroll flexibility and the ability to have us eat money on the back end of his contract, especially that vesting year. You simply cannot move Z without eating some payroll imo.

Fukudome is very likely going to be our lead off hitter next season. I really do not see Theriot in the picture for 2011. Guys like Silva and Gorzo are cheap plug ins for the back end of the rotation. One of Lilly or Lee will be resigned, even if one or both is dealt (my bet would be on Lilly). If Lee and Z were off the books, you'd have some payroll flexibility to bolster the pen and possibly make a run at Cliff Lee. Lots of scenarios could play themselves out, including this org promoting Cashner, putting him in the pen, and turning this season around at the plate.

Captain Obvious
05-10-2010, 04:34 PM
Your first paragraph is a complete FAIL!
So is your 2nd!
3rd Paragraph - Given the history of the Cubs and how they usually, thats the key word, Fail like you. I don't have much faith. I want them to win but its hard to believe they will since the Cubs seem to be the worst clutch team in the world right now.

And your an idiot for your IQ comment Captain D-Bag...

Care to explain why they 'fail'?

Given the Cubs history? I don't give a **** about their history. We have a new owner. He wants to win, the former owners didn't. There is a big difference there.

LaToyaHawkins
05-10-2010, 11:32 PM
I'm not sure a full scale purging will ever happen in a market this big. But a partial purge is likely. If we're out of contention by mid-June (which is probable) it would be a catastrophic mistake to not trade Lilly and Derrek Lee. We need to get something for them. The firing of Hendry and the replacement of Lou will be two additional major off-season shake ups. And we can complete the overhauling by allowing both Fukudome and Aramis to walk the following winter (or trade them next season if they have any value).

I'm pretty much resigned to Soriano and Zambrano being unmovable. They have to be part of the plan going forward. Obviously a key to our success going forward will be A) the development/infusion of youth and B) getting good value out of FA signings. I don't think we can succeed based soley on an infusion of talented youth. I believe we also need to strike gold with a FA middle of the order guy. Adrian Gonzales is who I consistently refer to but it would have to be somebody of that variety.

duce5858
05-11-2010, 12:41 AM
Trade DLee to San Fran for prospects I like Francisco Peguero. Trade Soriano to anywhere in the AL that will take him and eat some of his salary. Trade Lilly to the Rangers for some prospects. Trade Fukudome for a bullpen arm. I think you keep RamRam since his value is as low as it has ever been. Colvin has to play everyday. Castro has to play everyday. Bring up Cashner and put him in the pen as the 8th inning guy. Jay Jackson needs to get a shot sometime this year too. Also you might as well bring up Vitters in September and give him a long hard look too.

All in all this team is garbage the way it is currently configured.

zack4070
05-11-2010, 05:46 AM
Care to explain why they 'fail'?

Given the Cubs history? I don't give a **** about their history. We have a new owner. He wants to win, the former owners didn't. There is a big difference there.
Fuku and Sori have not been the Cubs best players. My main grief is that Sori hasn't even come close to living up to a respectable avg with that non-respectable contract. Even Sosa learned to lay off that outside slider eventually. Fuku was all hype especially after that Opening Day blast last year but he hasnt lived up to it either. I mostly blame the idiot that signed them. No way should you give someone that much money and that many years. Especially Sori. DLee and ARam have been our best hitters but the have sucked this first month. True. Sori has been the best the last few weeks but your argument was for their time with the Cubs and I just don't see it.

Your 2nd paragraph was kind of the same. Right now it seems like if you gave Colvin a shot he wouldn't do much worse than Sori or Fuku for way less money.

I don't know if you are a long time fan or not but its hard not to get frustrated with whats going on in the North Side right now. I wouldn't ever leave the Cubs but I will ignore them for a couple games to try to save my remote controls, windows and walls.

windycityD
05-11-2010, 09:39 AM
Fuku and Sori have not been the Cubs best players. My main grief is that Sori hasn't even come close to living up to a respectable avg with that non-respectable contract. Even Sosa learned to lay off that outside slider eventually. Fuku was all hype especially after that Opening Day blast last year but he hasnt lived up to it either. I mostly blame the idiot that signed them. No way should you give someone that much money and that many years. Especially Sori. DLee and ARam have been our best hitters but the have sucked this first month. True. Sori has been the best the last few weeks but your argument was for their time with the Cubs and I just don't see it.

Your 2nd paragraph was kind of the same. Right now it seems like if you gave Colvin a shot he wouldn't do much worse than Sori or Fuku for way less money.

I don't know if you are a long time fan or not but its hard not to get frustrated with whats going on in the North Side right now. I wouldn't ever leave the Cubs but I will ignore them for a couple games to try to save my remote controls, windows and walls.

See the issue with this team or will it take you 50 games? You're calling out two guys who have performed so far this season in the outfield. IN the case of Fukudome, his OBP is very solid as well. Add Byrd's production to the mix, and well, Tyler Colvin does not deserve more playing time, period. Add to that the fact that as a left handed hitter, he also can't nab playing time in RF when Fukudome sits. The problem in the OF is that Nady was signed to hit against lefties and was still injured coming into the season to boot. Xavier Nady and his 3 mil deal was a waste of money. 5 OFs on the roster is one too many, but not for Jimbo I guess.

My point is that Hendry once again assembled unworkable & expensive pieces, creating a bench situation that is very meh. 2b is now an issue in this regard. How do you expect Fontenot and Baker to give you anything off the bench when each one of them may only get 4-8 abs a week now?

Yagyu+
05-11-2010, 10:31 AM
My main grief is that Sori hasn't even come close to living up to a respectable avg with that non-respectable contract.

2007 .299 .337 .560 .897
2008 .280 .344 .532 .876
2009 .241 .303 .423 .726
2010 .340 .389 .660 1.050
4 yr. avg. .290 .343 .544 .887
Career .279 .327 .513 .840

Such disrespectful numbers.

zack4070
05-11-2010, 11:11 AM
2007 .299 .337 .560 .897
2008 .280 .344 .532 .876
2009 .241 .303 .423 .726
2010 .340 .389 .660 1.050
4 yr. avg. .290 .343 .544 .887
Career .279 .327 .513 .840

Such disrespectful numbers.
Your right about the first couple years but .241 and i will bet you money he doesnt finish in the 3's this year.

Yagyu+
05-11-2010, 11:26 AM
Your right about the first couple years but .241 and i will bet you money he doesnt finish in the 3's this year.

I'd be happy with .275 .330 .515

socherball
05-11-2010, 12:22 PM
One thing needs to happen first before you trade anyone.......fire Hendry. He has proven to make bad trades and I do not want him involved. .

I can name you a great trade for every bad trade you come up with.

That Bobby Hill, Jose Hernandez, and others for Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Lofton trade really sucked didn't it?

Hee Seop Choi + others for Derrek Lee was a horrible trade.

A handful of nothing for Nomar Garciaparra (which at the time was a steal) was a crappy deal wasn't it?

Harden/Gaudin for Donaldson, Patterson, Murton, and Gallagher, wasn't a bad deal for the Cubs either.

Bradley for Silva has so far worked out pretty good.

Sammy Sosa to ANYBODY was an amazing deal. The fact that he got servicable parts like Hairston Jr. and Fontenot was icing on the cake.

Point is, trading hasn't been Hendry's problem. Overpaying free-agents and handing out no-trade clauses like they were candy are/were his issues. Yes, he should be held accountable for this, but at least get his flaws right. He's actually been pretty good at trades.

davidfox11
05-11-2010, 12:57 PM
I can name you a great trade for every bad trade you come up with.

That Bobby Hill, Jose Hernandez, and others for Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Lofton trade really sucked didn't it?

Hee Seop Choi + others for Derrek Lee was a horrible trade.

A handful of nothing for Nomar Garciaparra (which at the time was a steal) was a crappy deal wasn't it?

Harden/Gaudin for Donaldson, Patterson, Murton, and Gallagher, wasn't a bad deal for the Cubs either.

Bradley for Silva has so far worked out pretty good.

Sammy Sosa to ANYBODY was an amazing deal. The fact that he got servicable parts like Hairston Jr. and Fontenot was icing on the cake.

Point is, trading hasn't been Hendry's problem. Overpaying free-agents and handing out no-trade clauses like they were candy are/were his issues. Yes, he should be held accountable for this, but at least get his flaws right. He's actually been pretty good at trades.



i agree overall i think he has down a very good job on the trade front and it is his free agent signings that have been suspect

weneedpitching
05-11-2010, 02:31 PM
Your right about the first couple years but .241 and i will bet you money he doesnt finish in the 3's this year.

And who cares if he does as long as he's around .340 OBP and .540 SLG.

He could bat .200 and if he put up a 340/540/880 I'd be happier than a pig in ****.

LaToyaHawkins
05-11-2010, 09:53 PM
I don't care what anybody hits as long as we win. And right now we have a lot of guys with high BA's/OBP's (Fukudome, Soto, Soriano,etc) and we're getting murdered. Like Rudy said on ESPN1000 today -- our lack of clutch hitting is killing us. We need some clutch hitters...

Milnertime
05-12-2010, 03:55 AM
I don't care what anybody hits as long as we win. And right now we have a lot of guys with high BA's/OBP's (Fukudome, Soto, Soriano,etc) and we're getting murdered. Like Rudy said on ESPN1000 today -- our lack of clutch hitting is killing us. We need some clutch hitters...
Part of the problem is the people who actually are hitting aren't in positions to come up in the clutch.

Soto's only had 24 PAs with RISP. Soriano's only had 22.

Aramis has had 43 so far and is OPSing .655. Lee's had 39, but has actually done well with an OPS of .836.

That is the problem. It's less the lack of clutch hits, it's the lack of clutch hits from the guys in the middle of the order.

It's got to change, eventually, though. Ramirez has a .914 OPS with RISP in his career.

windycityD
05-12-2010, 10:47 AM
Part of the problem is the people who actually are hitting aren't in positions to come up in the clutch.

Soto's only had 24 PAs with RISP. Soriano's only had 22.

Aramis has had 43 so far and is OPSing .655. Lee's had 39, but has actually done well with an OPS of .836.

That is the problem. It's less the lack of clutch hits, it's the lack of clutch hits from the guys in the middle of the order.

It's got to change, eventually, though. Ramirez has a .914 OPS with RISP in his career.

But it's also not just about RISP. It's RISP, coupled with the second highest LOB numbers going so far. A man on 1b with one out or less is no less important than guys on the corners in the same situation. The added problem is we also kill rallies & big innings before they even get started, let alone us consistently stranding guys in scoring position.

Clearly, this line up w/o A Ram hitting is and will be vulnerable (see 2009 when he was not in it for two months). Lou can lament why he doesn't understand this hitting funk, despite the stellar team avg & OBP, but part of that comes down to that fact that after A Ram and a "right" Lee, the rest of the guys in this line up are not on par with either of those bats when right. Sure, Soriano can get hot as hell and Soto is thankfully having a solid year so far. But both have shown they can also be ice cold for prolonged periods. The two most consistent, run-producing bats in this line up- clutch or otherwise- since 2004 have been Lee and A Ram. They are not getting the job done and Lou is not exactly doing the line up any favors when he hits them back to back and/or when he sits both Soto and AS in the same game, weakening the overall line up. This love fest for Colvin, getting him more playing time, etc. is all fine and good. But as long as Nady is on the active roster, Colvin is basically our 4a OF, behind three guys who so far have produced and all of whom have good OBP. Come July if this team is buried, that issue is simply resolved: you play Colvin in CF & LF more and have Byrd rotate in and out btw CF and RF.