PDA

View Full Version : Kevin Durant - Artest holds him to terrible shooting performance



Avenged
05-01-2010, 02:31 AM
Kevin Durant turned in one of the worst shooting performances in NBA history in a loss that ended a best-of-seven series.

1. Kenyon Martin 13.0 2003 NBA Finals

2. Paul Arizin 18.2 1962 Div. Finals

3. Kevin Durant 21.7 2010 1st Round

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=300430025

Kind of hard to believe that the scoring champion would be among one of the worst shooting performances in the history of the NBA.

Thoughts?

asandhu23
05-01-2010, 02:35 AM
:ouch:

RipVW
05-01-2010, 02:35 AM
Not really. When you try too hard or your mind is racing, it can easily happen.

GoatMilk
05-01-2010, 02:39 AM
Reporter: "How did you guys limit Durant tonight?"
Ron Artest: "I guess you're lookin' at him"


wasn't all Ron, but he certainly made it tough when he could

cambovenzi
05-01-2010, 02:46 AM
Faced a tough defender and missed some good looks too.

His scoring title was built on foul shooting anyways.
he did a good job of creating many ticky tack fouls and getting to the line in this series.

iggypop123
05-01-2010, 02:48 AM
lakers must have had bad FT defense cause they didnt stop durant from that

Lakersfan2483
05-01-2010, 02:54 AM
Durant's struggles were due to a man named Ron Artest. Ron made him work for everything and was on him like white on rice.

kArSoN RyDaH
05-01-2010, 02:57 AM
artest 70% and bynum and gasol 30%

Mr. Net32
05-01-2010, 03:40 AM
Still avg over 24ppg for the series. The kid did what he was supposed to do... get to the line when you're off. but the lakers played him pretty tough. mainly Artest because Kobe was looking like Jordan on the Wizards defensively. Hopefully it was just a bad matchup and Kobe gets back on track.

robdizzle3
05-01-2010, 03:57 AM
Yeah, alot of his points were at the free throw line, because he was flopping his *** off, but he had points nonetheless. Artest did a pretty good job on him, because he didnt let up, but Durant also missed some good looks, but thats to happen to anybody.

ko8e24
05-01-2010, 04:18 AM
artest 70% and bynum and gasol 30%

Actually, I would go as far as bumping Artest up to 80%. A lot of the defense he did was before Durant even got the ball, chasing him on screens, roughing him up when Durant didn't even have the ball, etc. etc. Durant couldn't get to his spots because of TruWarier37.

jsut91
05-01-2010, 04:28 AM
I have to agree with ko8e24. Yes, Gasol, Bynum, and even Odom played some great defense at times when Durant attacked the basket, but Artest was the real reason Durant was off. Artest worked his butt off around screens and kept up with the young superstar. I think that the play in the 3rd quarter where Artest had his hand in Durant's face on his jumpshot was an excellent example of his great defense. Altough Artest may have been a step behind Durant he played the "Battier on Kobe" defense and made it tough for him. Maybe we can play Artest on Deron Williams lol

evadatam5150
05-01-2010, 04:32 AM
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=300430025

Kind of hard to believe that the scoring champion would be among one of the worst shooting performances in the history of the NBA.

Thoughts?

You know Ron Ron said he was going to bring the D and dude wasn't kidding.. Impressive how he hounded that dude the entire series.. You take away all those ridiculous foul shots and dudes not sniffing 16 a game.. Obviously they weren't all bad calls but between he and Westbrook there was a lot of flopping going on.. I will say that Westbrooks the real deal though..

tredigs
05-01-2010, 04:41 AM
Watched nearly every Thunder game this year... NOBODY defends KD like Artest does. The man is not done, I was thoroughly impressed by what he did that series on the defensive end. Boss **** fa sho.

cambovenzi
05-01-2010, 04:51 AM
It was definitely a huge reason why we won.
Imagine if Durant was even decent shooting from the field in some of these close games.

aZekuiS
05-01-2010, 05:13 AM
For the series he still scored 25ppg on 20 shots per because of freethrows. Sefolosha held Kobe to 23ppg on 20 shots per. Westbrook and Durant were the 2 best players in that series imo.

cambovenzi
05-01-2010, 05:55 AM
For the series he still scored 25ppg on 20 shots per because of freethrows. Sefolosha held Kobe to 23ppg on 20 shots per. Westbrook and Durant were the 2 best players in that series imo.

that is comical to say the least.
you have to count his free throw trips as possessions as well.
his extremely anemic shooting percentage was a large reason why they lost.

aZekuiS
05-01-2010, 06:17 AM
that is comical to say the least.
you have to count his free throw trips as possessions as well.
his extremely anemic shooting percentage was a large reason why they lost.

Durant shot 10 FT's a game and made 87% of them, which in return helped his poor shooting %. If you wanna count his free throw attemps as shots attemps, then you have to combine his free throw % with his fg %, which would raise it considerably. The article in this thread was talking about his fg %, not his tsp, dummy.

ChiSox219
05-01-2010, 06:24 AM
I just finished watching last night's game and I would hardly give all the credit to Artest. Haven't seen anyone mentioned Phil Jackson yet, but he deseerve credit for designing a scheme that had Durant fighting for open looks all series. Gasol/Bynum/Odom all rotated and helped better than any front court Durant has ever seen. All around great effort from the Lakers defense.


Watched nearly every Thunder game this year... NOBODY defends KD like Artest does. The man is not done, I was thoroughly impressed by what he did that series on the defensive end. Boss **** fa sho.

Artest still has it and he looks better now that he's shed weight.

Bill Simmons had an excellent point, the outcome of the series was in the refs hands. If they let Artest body Durant there was a good chance LA would win and if the refs called a lot of touch fouls the Thunder would have an advantage. I think we saw a mix of both and it certainly was the most important match up of the series.

cambovenzi
05-01-2010, 07:03 AM
Durant shot 10 FT's a game and made 87% of them, which in return helped his poor shooting %. If you wanna count his free throw attemps as shots attemps, then you have to combine his free throw % with his fg %, which would raise it considerably. The article in this thread was talking about his fg %, not his tsp, dummy.

nice insults, very mature.

you were wrong no matter what way you cut it.
You were acting as though his ft attempts didn't count as attempts for that player when using their points per shot to say durant was better.
i corrected you, you agreed with me, and then you call me a dummy. :clap:

aZekuiS
05-01-2010, 07:56 AM
nice insults, very mature.

you were wrong no matter what way you cut it.
You were acting as though his ft attempts didn't count as attempts for that player when using their points per shot to say durant was better.
i corrected you, you agreed with me, and then you call me a dummy. :clap:

No, I simply pointed out that Durant getting to the line as much as he did, helped his performance considerably. If you wanna have a friendly conversation don't say someone's point is comical when you don't even understand what they're talking about. You still don't seem to understand the difference between fg attempts and ft attempts. Ft attempts don't affect fg% for regular stat lines. The article focused only on his fg % & I don't think it's fair to disregard that aspect of his game because he did a great job of getting to the line when his shot wasn't falling. Neither Durant nor Kobe shot a great % during this series, but IMO Durant had a better series because he got to the FT line much more often than Kobe and it reflected on his ppg compared to his shots taken, and probably got his tsp to around 50%, which is respectable. get it?

cambovenzi
05-01-2010, 08:11 AM
No, I simply pointed out that Durant getting to the line as much as he did, helped his performance considerably. If you wanna have a friendly conversation don't say someone's point is comical when you don't even understand what they're talking about. You still don't seem to understand the difference between fg attempts and ft attempts. Ft attempts don't affect fg% for regular stat lines. The article focused only on his fg % & I don't think it's fair to disregard that aspect of his game because he did a great job of getting to the line when his shot wasn't falling. Neither Durant nor Kobe shot a great % during this series, but IMO Durant had a better series because he got to the FT line much more often than Kobe and it reflected on his ppg compared to his shots taken, and probably got his tsp to around 50%, which is respectable. get it?

I understood EXACTLY what you were talking about.
You claimed a guy from the losing side, who shot horribly, was a top 2 player in the series.

When making this outlandish claim, you lumped the points scored from fts in with his points scored from fgs and analyzed them on a total points per shot basis.
Considering he got to the line many times, these "free" possessions you were giving to him added up and skewed his perceived performance.

A much better candidate for top 2 player in the series would be Pau Gasol.
who not only made his shots at a great rate, also got to the line, played good defense, rebounded much more, and had a more positive effect on the games. (including the series winning tip in off an offensive rebound)

Durant's anemic shooting was a huge reason why the thunder failed to win or extend this series.
Big reason why they lost =/= top performer.

D1JM
05-01-2010, 08:11 AM
So u r giving durant mote credit cuz he flops in calls ? No wonder Garnett said of they were playing Michael ****ing Jordan! Now I know how Westbrook averages 20 points a game cuz he is learning alot from flooper. They don't even touch him and he screams falling down looking at the ref.

D1JM
05-01-2010, 08:14 AM
Oh yea forgot to add, maybe durant should learn when to give up the ball and let his teammates shoot cuz he cost them the game.

justheboss
05-01-2010, 08:18 AM
Yeah he did put a lot of pressure on him and forced him to miss shots he normally hits, but this series reminds me A LOT of the bad boy pistons vs a young jordan. You take your beating from one of, if not the best team in the league and learn from it. How much harder do you think thiw will push Durant?? Also a side note, OKC is a chris bosh or dirk away from being the best in the west! Do you think they have a shot at either??

justheboss
05-01-2010, 08:26 AM
So u r giving durant mote credit cuz he flops in calls ? No wonder Garnett said of they were playing Michael ****ing Jordan! Now I know how Westbrook averages 20 points a game cuz he is learning alot from flooper. They don't even touch him and he screams falling down looking at the ref.
No way is he a flopper, I smell a hater lol. The NBA has changed and every series and game I've watch there 10-15 fouls where I don't even know how they called a foul. The NBA is super soft and has shifted 100% to an offense league.

aZekuiS
05-01-2010, 08:41 AM
I understood EXACTLY what you were talking about.
You claimed a guy from the losing side, who shot horribly, was a top 2 player in the series.

When making this outlandish claim, you lumped the points scored from fts in with his points scored from fgs and analyzed them on a total points per shot basis.
Considering he got to the line many times, these "free" possessions you were giving to him added up and skewed his perceived performance.

A much better candidate for top 2 player in the series would be Pau Gasol.
who not only made his shots at a great rate, also got to the line, played good defense, rebounded much more, and had a more positive effect on the games. (including the series winning tip in off an offensive rebound)

Durant's anemic shooting was a huge reason why the thunder failed to win or extend this series.
Big reason why they lost =/= top performer.


Okay, so when you look at a players stats you take away their points from free throws when looking at their PPG & FG%? Free throws are apart of the game & the best players get to the line. How do free throws skew a players "perceived performance" when they're part of the game? lol.

Maybe, I thought Gasol outplayed Kobe also. Durant faced alot more defensive pressure as he only had 1 consistent offensive player in Westbrook. He also grabbed rebounds as we seen when he got 19 in game 3, and played excellent D on Artest and Kobe.

So you think the Thunder woulda won 2 games and had a better chance of winning this series without Durant? I mean that team has so many offensive weapons. Good point.

Kobe's anemic shooting was the reason the Thunder were even in this series.

Durant scored 25ppg while averaging about 20 shots a game.

Kobe scored 23ppg while averaging about 20 shots a game.

This is where it gets confusing for you. So how can a player average more ppg when shooting a lesser % you ask?

Here, try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_throw

cambovenzi
05-01-2010, 08:53 AM
Okay, so when you look at a players stats you take away their points from free throws when looking at their PPG & FG%? Free throws are apart of the game & the best players get to the line. How do free throws skew a players "perceived performance" when they're part of the game? lol.
the way you had it in your previous post they were not attributed in any way to possessions used by that player, yet you added them in as a positive for his points per shot. He used more possessions drawing fouls than other players(kobe) did.
Doing what you did skewed the stats to make him look better.




So you think the Thunder woulda won 2 games and had a better chance of winning this series without Durant? I mean that team has so many offensive weapons. Good point.
Maybe. They certainly would have been much better off without his horrible shooting numbers.
He ball hogged and severely hurt their chances in some games.



Kobe's anemic shooting was the reason the Thunder were even in this series.


kobe ended up shooting better than durant, and didnt have an epically bad performance in the final game of the series.



Durant scored 25ppg while averaging about 20 shots a game.

Kobe scored 23ppg while averaging about 20 shots a game.

This is where it gets confusing for you. So how can a player average more ppg when shooting a lesser % you ask?

Here, try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_throw

You are doing it again.
Durant got to the line more, but in doing so he used more possessions.
You cannot just disregard the 19 extra free throw attempts and imply that durant was better b/c they averaged the same amount of shots.

aZekuiS
05-01-2010, 09:29 AM
the way you had it in your previous post they were not attributed in any way to possessions used by that player, yet you added them in as a positive for his points per shot. He used more possessions drawing fouls than other players(kobe) did.
Doing what you did skewed the stats to make him look better.

Maybe. They certainly would have been much better off without his horrible shooting numbers.
He ball hogged and severely hurt their chances in some games.


kobe ended up shooting better than durant, and didnt have an epically bad performance in the final game of the series.


You are doing it again.
Durant got to the line more, but in doing so he used more possessions.
You cannot just disregard the 19 extra free throw attempts and imply that durant was better b/c they averaged the same amount of shots.


Oh ok, so getting to the line isn't a legitimate way to get points? Players should take mostly contested jumpers like Kobe?

lol, if you think the Thunder coulda beat LA twice and nearly 4 times without Durant you can't possibly think they'll get past Utah, right?

Durant scored 26 points on 23 shot attempts last game. Not an "epically bad performance". I think as long as you score more points than shot attempts, it's a decent performance.

Here's a website explaining this statistic: http://www.82games.com/random10.htm


Yes, i'm implying that Durant was better because he did a much better job getting to the line with means he earned more points, hence why he averaged more PPG this series, even though he shot 5% worse. lol.

cambovenzi
05-01-2010, 09:44 AM
Oh ok, so getting to the line isn't a legitimate way to get points? Players should take mostly contested jumpers like Kobe?

lol, if you think the Thunder coulda beat LA twice and nearly 4 times without Durant you can't possibly think they'll get past Utah, right?

Durant scored 26 points on 23 shot attempts last game. Not an "epically bad performance". I think as long as you score more points than shot attempts, it's a decent performance.

Here's a website explaining this statistic: http://www.82games.com/random10.htm


Yes, i'm implying that Durant was better because he did a much better job getting to the line with means he earned more points, hence why he averaged more PPG this series, even though he shot 5% worse. lol.

You continually and repeatedly do the same thing to skew how he looks.
He did not get all 26 of those points from FG attempts.
infact many of them came from FTs.
you cannot sit there and gauge him on points per shot attempt and pretend the fts don't count as attempts.

An equivalent example of this ridiculousness would be like adding in mike vick's rushing yards to his passing yards and you saying he is better than peyton manning b/c he had more total yards per pass attempt. (while completely ignoring the fact that he took several more rushing attempts)

It was one of the worst shooting performances in NBA playoff history.
YES it was epically bad.
Making some FTs makes it a little better, but he was still very bad overall on the night.

If durant goes 0-1 from the field, and hits 10 free throws is he now the best player of all time? :rolleyes:

aZekuiS
05-01-2010, 10:17 AM
You continually and repeatedly do the same thing to skew how he looks.
He did not get all 26 of those points from FG attempts.
infact many of them came from FTs.
you cannot sit there and gauge him on points per shot attempt and pretend the fts don't count as attempts.

An equivalent example of this ridiculousness would be like adding in mike vick's rushing yards to his passing yards and you saying he is better than peyton manning b/c he had more total yards per pass attempt. (while completely ignoring the fact that he took several more rushing attempts)

It was one of the worst shooting performances in NBA playoff history.
YES it was epically bad.
Making some FTs makes it a little better, but he was still very bad overall on the night.

If durant goes 0-1 from the field, and hits 10 free throws is he now the best player of all time? :rolleyes:

Free Throws do not count as shot attempts, therefore you don't include them in fg%, even though the points you get from free throws are included in the players ppg.

lol at the pointless football analogy.

I'm talking about points per shot attempt, which that website explains. That statistic determines efficiency. Doug Collins says it's the stat he looks at most because the most efficient players get to the FT line.

Here's another website to explain this phenomena to you:

http://www.floatersinthelane.com/NBA/Stats/20090729_Points_Per_Field_Goal_Attempt.html


So if a player goes 1-4 from the field, but 22-25 from the line and another player shoots 4-6 from the field and 4-7 from the line, you think the latter is a better performance because they shot a higher % from the field?

Raph12
05-01-2010, 10:37 AM
Artest did a good job but KD also missed some that he should've hit and that's why he's not elite IMO, the playoffs are what matter most and he hasn't performed well on the big stage yet.

Sorry Digs, but this performance takes him back out of my top 5.

Gibby23
05-01-2010, 10:43 AM
For the series he still scored 25ppg on 20 shots per because of freethrows. Sefolosha held Kobe to 23ppg on 20 shots per. Westbrook and Durant were the 2 best players in that series imo.

Pau Gasol was the best player in the series.

Carey
05-01-2010, 10:57 AM
It was a great defensive performance, it was a combination of Ron Artest, his lack of strength, lack of experience and lack of offensive development. Our other guys will become better and more efficient offensive players which will in turn make KD not have to shoot as much and make defenses play us more honestly. He will get stronger in the offseason because he has that kind of work ethic. Its a process

aZekuiS
05-01-2010, 10:57 AM
Pau Gasol was the best player in the series.

I think Westbrook had more of an impact for his team. He forced the issue on every fastbreak opportunity and constantly got inside the paint to create shots for his team. LA didn't pound the ball inside enough in that series.

Draco
05-01-2010, 11:03 AM
Someone changed the thread title from ESPNs choice of words "one of the worst shooting performances in NBA history" to "Artest holds him to terrible shooting performance" lol

Draco
05-01-2010, 11:07 AM
Artest did a good job but KD also missed some that he should've hit and that's why he's not elite IMO, the playoffs are what matter most and he hasn't performed well on the big stage yet.

Sorry Digs, but this performance takes him back out of my top 5.

KD has somewhere between 3 to 5 inches on Artest and wasn't making shots while Kobe has 3 inches on WB and WB still hit some of his contested jumpers.

king4day
05-01-2010, 11:15 AM
Artest did a nice job, but he missed a ton of open shots.

sep11ie
05-01-2010, 11:36 AM
Am I the only person in the world that thinks KD is kinda overrated?

Carey
05-01-2010, 11:43 AM
Am I the only person in the world that thinks KD is kinda overrated?

Overhyped? I'll give you that, but he's 5 or 6 years away from his prime. Def. too soon to try to say he's overrated, let him develop. He's not a finished product....and the thought of that is flat out scary.

Gibby23
05-01-2010, 11:44 AM
I think Westbrook had more of an impact for his team. He forced the issue on every fastbreak opportunity and constantly got inside the paint to create shots for his team. LA didn't pound the ball inside enough in that series.

18 ppg, 12rpg, 1.3bpg, 3.7apg, and shooting 53%. Also ended the series with a board and basket. Talk about impact, it's more of an impact if you win. Westbrooks team lost, so he didn't get the job done.

Gibby23
05-01-2010, 11:45 AM
Am I the only person in the world that thinks KD is kinda overrated?

You might be, because he is a baller, one of the best in the NBA.

Raph12
05-01-2010, 11:58 AM
KD has somewhere between 3 to 5 inches on Artest and wasn't making shots while Kobe has 3 inches on WB and WB still hit some of his contested jumpers.

In KD's defence, Kobe's d on WB was basically a zone, he gave him about 10 feet of space on the arc. Had Artest guarded KD like that, I'm sure he'd do much better.

Gibby23
05-01-2010, 12:00 PM
In KD's defence, Kobe's d on WB was basically a zone, he gave him about 10 feet of space on the arc. Had Artest guarded KD like that, I'm sure he'd do much better.

If Artest guarded KD like that, he would have dropped 50 a game.

sep11ie
05-01-2010, 12:14 PM
Overhyped? I'll give you that, but he's 5 or 6 years away from his prime. Def. too soon to try to say he's overrated, let him develop. He's not a finished product....and the thought of that is flat out scary.

Ok, I'll give ya that. Maybe just a little overhyped. He just shoots sooooo much!

Carey
05-01-2010, 12:35 PM
Ok, I'll give ya that. Maybe just a little overhyped. He just shoots sooooo much!

On this team he has to when your playing against championship caliber D, we just arent developed enough offensively. Check the stats, he was one of the most efficient offensively players there is. 48 % from the field while avg 30 points is pretty ridiculous. I hate when people try to make it out like he's some volume shooter, its so not the case.

iggypop123
05-01-2010, 01:54 PM
Overhyped? I'll give you that, but he's 5 or 6 years away from his prime. Def. too soon to try to say he's overrated, let him develop. He's not a finished product....and the thought of that is flat out scary.

gotta agree. people are trying to crown him already. he isnt that good yet. he gets a whole lotta love from the refs, otherwise he isnt top 15 yet. the one problem i see with him is given all the gifts he gets from the refs, that will discourage him from bulking up.

Avenged
05-01-2010, 02:09 PM
A Mod changed my thread's title but that's okay.

It was originally about Durant having one of the worse shooting performances in NBA history to Artest holding him to a terrible shooting performances.

Must've been a Thunder fan. ;)

Wisdom Listens
05-01-2010, 02:14 PM
He was probably just putting too much pressure on himself, like most of them do.

ko8e24
05-01-2010, 02:37 PM
Pau Gasol was the best player in the series.

Well, he certainly made the field goal to seal the deal.

Becks2307
05-01-2010, 02:50 PM
gotta agree. people are trying to crown him already. he isnt that good yet. he gets a whole lotta love from the refs, otherwise he isnt top 15 yet. the one problem i see with him is given all the gifts he gets from the refs, that will discourage him from bulking up.



not top 15? wow..how is the leading scorer on in the NBA not top 15

goku
05-01-2010, 02:57 PM
lakers better hope they go against the magic cause vince carter will struggle against ron ron but the lebron wont he bigger then ron which is rare at there position

Draco
05-01-2010, 03:18 PM
In KD's defence, Kobe's d on WB was basically a zone, he gave him about 10 feet of space on the arc. Had Artest guarded KD like that, I'm sure he'd do much better.

You're right but I still can't get over the 3 to 5 inch advantage. Guarded KD like that? Like what, getting a hand in his face because KD has no lift on his jumper? Then adjust, create space somehow.. I would think that's what scoring champs do.

Lakers4ItAll
05-01-2010, 04:20 PM
This is exactly why the Lakers got Artest

RipVW
05-01-2010, 04:22 PM
I thought the defense was ok. I mean, Artest is a good defender but I dont get all the hype. Like I said, it was pretty good but I also remember Durant missing his share of open shots.

iggypop123
05-01-2010, 04:54 PM
I thought the defense was ok. I mean, Artest is a good defender but I dont get all the hype. Like I said, it was pretty good but I also remember Durant missing his share of open shots.

its alot harder to make jumpshots when you arent sitting by yourself on the FT line

RipVW
05-01-2010, 05:18 PM
its alot harder to make jumpshots when you arent sitting by yourself on the FT line

That doesnt make a lot of sense... but OK.

Wisdom Listens
05-01-2010, 05:25 PM
its alot harder to make jumpshots when you arent sitting by yourself on the FT line

Are you implying he didn't get to the FTL as often in the playoffs as the regular season? If so, you're wrong.

Gibby23
05-01-2010, 06:02 PM
You're right but I still can't get over the 3 to 5 inch advantage. Guarded KD like that? Like what, getting a hand in his face because KD has no lift on his jumper? Then adjust, create space somehow.. I would think that's what scoring champs do.

Artest did alot of work on KD before KD would get the ball. He banged him around and made him run around alot just to get the ball, by the time he got it, he used up a lot of energy.

Gibby23
05-01-2010, 06:03 PM
Are you implying he didn't get to the FTL as often in the playoffs as the regular season? If so, you're wrong.

I think you read it wrong.

Wisdom Listens
05-01-2010, 06:28 PM
I think you read it wrong.

Be vague and that will happen.

cambovenzi
05-01-2010, 06:33 PM
Free Throws do not count as shot attempts, therefore you don't include them in fg%, even though the points you get from free throws are included in the players ppg.

lol at the pointless football analogy.

I'm talking about points per shot attempt, which that website explains. That statistic determines efficiency. Doug Collins says it's the stat he looks at most because the most efficient players get to the FT line.

Here's another website to explain this phenomena to you:

http://www.floatersinthelane.com/NBA/Stats/20090729_Points_Per_Field_Goal_Attempt.html


So if a player goes 1-4 from the field, but 22-25 from the line and another player shoots 4-6 from the field and 4-7 from the line, you think the latter is a better performance because they shot a higher % from the field?

the stat, as you are using it, proves absolutely nothing.
It is not correlated well at all to wins. infact several of the top teams in the stat didn't make the playoffs.(or come even close)
It completely ignores the fact that trips to the line take up possessions.

then you make up some ridiculous example to show how its good.

cambovenzi
05-01-2010, 06:36 PM
its alot harder to make jumpshots when you arent sitting by yourself on the FT line


Be vague and that will happen.

That wasn't vague at all, you just read it wrong.

He is saying that its alot harder to make fgs than fts. (b/c people are actually allowed to contest you, etc)

SteveNash
05-01-2010, 06:45 PM
Durant needs to do a better job at playing winning basketball.

He's utterly worthless if he's shooting poorly. Needs to play better defense, grab more rebounds, and become more of a playmaker.

Wisdom Listens
05-01-2010, 06:49 PM
That wasn't vague at all, you just read it wrong.

Perhaps, but it appears as if I am not the only person who wasn't exactly sure what he was talking about.

Wisdom Listens
05-01-2010, 06:49 PM
dp

RipVW
05-01-2010, 06:56 PM
That wasn't vague at all, you just read it wrong.

He is saying that its alot harder to make fgs than fts. (b/c people are actually allowed to contest you, etc)

It was a nothing post.

If he's saying that Durant gets a lot of points from the line, then that diminishes this idea that he didnt contribute because Artest did a good job on him.

Beyond that, I was talking about how he struggled from the field. So to refer to free throws, really has little to do with anything.

iluvsports2much
05-01-2010, 07:22 PM
hey wheres kvrnm when you need him??? he was knockin kobe pretty bad and pretty much sayin KD is god....i dont see him posting in this forum for some reason..he has terrible judgement...he actually thought KD was the main reason the thunder stuck in the series as long as they did...any REAL fan would know it was all russel westbrook..once he got shut down,the series was over...

iggypop123
05-01-2010, 07:23 PM
Are you implying he didn't get to the FTL as often in the playoffs as the regular season? If so, you're wrong.

my vagueness sucked cause what i meant was when he was alone in the FT an incredible ammount of times he shoots 90%. he was there so many damn times that it must have felt weird to actually try and shoot in the flow of a game and with a defender in front of him. he was used to the treatment. just like dwight howard has the nickname "foul on you" durant had the nickname "FT for you".

Bruno
05-01-2010, 07:30 PM
KD deserves a pass on all this bashing if any player has ever deserved a pass. The dudes 21 years old! The Thunder shouldn't have even been in the playoffs this year, only the 2nd year of KD-Green-WB. Their season was a massive success and their fans know it- thats why they stayed and applauded after the game six loss.

KD may have shot a horrible % for the record books but he still got to the line 15 times. He finished with 26 points on 23 shots. It's not brilliant efficiency by any means, but thats still 1.13 points per shot, he's still above 1. Again, not great, but lets not deem it one of the worst games played.

ARMIN12NBA
05-01-2010, 07:53 PM
KD is a beast. No question, but is it even a question that Kobe outplayed him in this series? Kobe played better. He played the two best individual games of the series (out of the 2 players), which happened to be the 2 most important games of the series (Games 5 and 6). Also, Kobe's playmaking skills separate him from Durant who mostly runs off of screens to get his shots. Kobe makes plays for the team while also scoring.

Bruno
05-01-2010, 08:33 PM
KD is a beast. No question, but is it even a question that Kobe outplayed him in this series? Kobe played better. He played the two best individual games of the series (out of the 2 players), which happened to be the 2 most important games of the series (Games 5 and 6). Also, Kobe's playmaking skills separate him from Durant who mostly runs off of screens to get his shots. Kobe makes plays for the team while also scoring.

Bryant had a PER of 16.2, down from a regular season PER of 21.9

KD had a PER of 16.8, down from a regular season PER of 26.2

On average they were pretty equally IMO, and both shot below mediocre %s.

cambovenzi
05-01-2010, 08:46 PM
Bryant had a PER of 16.2, down from a regular season PER of 21.9

KD had a PER of 16.8, down from a regular season PER of 26.2

On average they were pretty equally IMO, and both shot below mediocre %s.


Problems With PER

PER largely measures offensive performance. Hollinger freely admits that two of the defensive statistics it incorporates -- blocks and steals -- can produce a distorted picture of a player's value and that PER is not a reliable measure of a player's defensive acumen. For example, Bruce Bowen, widely regarded as one of the best defenders in the NBA (at least through the 2006-07 season), has routinely posted single-digit PERs.

"Bear in mind that this rating is not the final, once-and-for-all answer for a player's accomplishments during the season. This is especially true for players such as Bruce Bowen and Trenton Hassell who are defensive specialists but don't get many blocks or steals."

Neither PER nor per-game statistics take into account such intangible elements as competitive drive, leadership, durability, conditioning, or hustle, largely because there is no real way to quantitatively measure these things, which are often based on opinion.

In addition, some have argued that PER gives undue weight to a player's contribution in limited minutes, or against a team's second unit, and it undervalues players who have enough diversity in their game to play starter's minutes.

Lastly, PER rewards inefficient shooting. To quote Dave Berri, the author of The Wages of Wins:

"Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA played does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."


yea about that..

iggypop123
05-01-2010, 08:51 PM
we can disagree on durant but we can all agree that green is a fraud and nothing special right?

evadatam5150
05-01-2010, 08:57 PM
For the series he still scored 25ppg on 20 shots per because of freethrows. Sefolosha held Kobe to 23ppg on 20 shots per. Westbrook and Durant were the 2 best players in that series imo.

It's amazing how people like you continue to spout nonsense like this.. Are you a member of the Nuggets because as far as they're concerned they're now sitting at home watching the playoffs and still emphatically telling anyone who will listen that they're better than LA.. Durant has the 3rd worst shooting percentage in NBA playoff history... HISTORY...!!! How can you say that with a straight face.. I'll not argue that Westbrook was certainly one of the best, definitely the best for OKC.. But Durant...?? Nut up homer and get a grip..

aZekuiS
05-01-2010, 09:34 PM
the stat, as you are using it, proves absolutely nothing.
It is not correlated well at all to wins. infact several of the top teams in the stat didn't make the playoffs.(or come even close)
It completely ignores the fact that trips to the line take up possessions.

then you make up some ridiculous example to show how its good.


What do possessions have to do with fg%. Steve Nash possesses the ball alot but doesn't shoot alot.

Lol, yeah efficiency means nothing in the NBA. You obviously know alot more about basketball than Doug Collins. If I was a Kobe fan, i'de probably avoid that stat aswell.

aZekuiS
05-01-2010, 09:41 PM
It's amazing how people like you continue to spout nonsense like this.. Are you a member of the Nuggets because as far as they're concerned they're now sitting at home watching the playoffs and still emphatically telling anyone who will listen that they're better than LA.. Durant has the 3rd worst shooting percentage in NBA playoff history... HISTORY...!!! How can you say that with a straight face.. I'll not argue that Westbrook was certainly one of the best, definitely the best for OKC.. But Durant...?? Nut up homer and get a grip..

So you think Westbrook singlehandidly beat the Lakers twice and nearly 4 times? You should probably take Kobe's nuts out of your eyes and read the article again, as KD had the 3rd worst shooting % from the field in 1 game, not the series, for the sereis he got 5% worse than Kobe, but still scored 2 ppg more while taking the same amount of shots.

aZekuiS
05-01-2010, 09:46 PM
18 ppg, 12rpg, 1.3bpg, 3.7apg, and shooting 53%. Also ended the series with a board and basket. Talk about impact, it's more of an impact if you win. Westbrooks team lost, so he didn't get the job done.

Gasol & Bynum had a 5 foot advantage over the Thunders bigs, I was more impressed with Westbrook's 20-6-6 while having a much worse supporting cast.

cambovenzi
05-01-2010, 09:46 PM
What do possessions have to do with fg%. Steve Nash possesses the ball alot but doesn't shoot alot.

Lol, yeah efficiency means nothing in the NBA. You obviously know alot more about basketball than Doug Collins. If I was a Kobe fan, i'de probably avoid that stat aswell.

this whole argument blows right by you.

when you go to the line a possession is used on that player.
it is ridiculous to not count that possession in their efficiency if you are counting their points from it.

as i've already said, the stat as you had it does not correlate well to wins, and is quite meaningless.

aZekuiS
05-01-2010, 10:40 PM
this whole argument blows right by you.

when you go to the line a possession is used on that player.
it is ridiculous to not count that possession in their efficiency if you are counting their points from it.

as i've already said, the stat as you had it does not correlate well to wins, and is quite meaningless.


So it's riciculous to not count that possession in their efficiency, even though that possession doesn't court towards their fg overall fg%, and they score with a stopped clock.........and you think FT's should count towards a players
shot attemps (possessions aren't shot attemps, you can get fouled while your team is in the penalty), while FT's % shouldn't be added to their overall %, AKA TSP. You should write the NBA immedialty and nofity them to change they way they keep stats.


You think the Thunder are better without Durant, you think a player's scoring efficiency is a meaningless stat, and even though the NBA doesn't count FT attemps towards a players shot attempts, you think I should in this case to help your argument. Anything else?

cambovenzi
05-02-2010, 05:44 AM
So it's riciculous to not count that possession in their efficiency, even though that possession doesn't court towards their fg overall fg%, and they score with a stopped clock.........and you think FT's should count towards a players
shot attemps (possessions aren't shot attemps, you can get fouled while your team is in the penalty), while FT's % shouldn't be added to their overall %, AKA TSP. You should write the NBA immedialty and nofity them to change they way they keep stats.


You think the Thunder are better without Durant, you think a player's scoring efficiency is a meaningless stat, and even though the NBA doesn't count FT attemps towards a players shot attempts, you think I should in this case to help your argument. Anything else?
what does a stopped clock have to do with anything?
drawing a foul and going to the line STILL uses a possession whether you like it or not.
do you not understand that concept or what?

I am not saying the NBA needs to change their stats.
I never said fts should count in FG attempts.
But if you are going to lump all the points together, you cannot just disregard the fact that KD had all these extra free throws and gauge them only using total points per FG attempt.

In games where durant is bad, yes i think he hurt their chances to win. that isnt hard to understand.
If kobe went 5 for 23 and the lakers lost, i would think the same thing about him in that specific game.

aZekuiS
05-02-2010, 10:36 AM
what does a stopped clock have to do with anything?
drawing a foul and going to the line STILL uses a possession whether you like it or not.
do you not understand that concept or what?

I am not saying the NBA needs to change their stats.
I never said fts should count in FG attempts.
But if you are going to lump all the points together, you cannot just disregard the fact that KD had all these extra free throws and gauge them only using total points per FG attempt.

In games where durant is bad, yes i think he hurt their chances to win. that isnt hard to understand.
If kobe went 5 for 23 and the lakers lost, i would think the same thing about him in that specific game.

Why do you keep talking about possession? Possession starts when the ball is inbounded. Possessions and shot attempts are 2 different things. Alot of free throws are caused late in games to stop the clock. For the millionth time, if you're going to say free throws should count towards shot's taken, then you have to account the percentage made of free throws to the shots taken, which would completely nullify the article and this thread, which was my point to begin with. Durant shot nearly 50% in the series if you add his fg % and ft % together, which in return gave him a respectable series.

TheWatcher34
05-02-2010, 11:15 AM
Not really. When you try too hard or your mind is racing, it can easily happen.

i think so too. Durant is still very young. he will deliver in future playoff series regardless of who is guarding him

whitekimbo
05-02-2010, 11:21 AM
how did i know a lakers fan made this thread?

Avenged
05-02-2010, 11:37 AM
how did i know a lakers fan made this thread?

I don't know but this thread went in the opposition direction.

A mod changed my thread title and it went downhill from there.

cambovenzi
05-02-2010, 06:44 PM
Why do you keep talking about possession? Possession starts when the ball is inbounded. Possessions and shot attempts are 2 different things. Alot of free throws are caused late in games to stop the clock. For the millionth time, if you're going to say free throws should count towards shot's taken, then you have to account the percentage made of free throws to the shots taken, which would completely nullify the article and this thread, which was my point to begin with. Durant shot nearly 50% in the series if you add his fg % and ft % together, which in return gave him a respectable series.

Possessions are used when you draw a foul and get to the line.
they are not "free" points, do not let the name fool you.

if you added almost anyone's FT% to their fg% it would look much better..

instead of counting every ft as a fg attempt, it might be better to divide them by 2 first.(fts are 1 pt and you generally get 2 per trip to the line)
still not good, but better than just adding ft % and calling it a good performance now lol.

evadatam5150
05-02-2010, 07:06 PM
So you think Westbrook singlehandidly beat the Lakers twice and nearly 4 times? You should probably take Kobe's nuts out of your eyes and read the article again, as KD had the 3rd worst shooting % from the field in 1 game, not the series, for the sereis he got 5% worse than Kobe, but still scored 2 ppg more while taking the same amount of shots.

So you think Westbrook singlehandidly

Did I say that...?? Don't take my words and attempt to twist them up, you don't have the mental capacity to make a concise argument...!! My response was to a statement concerning Westbrook and Durant being the TWO best players on the floor during that series.. THE SERIES.. TWO BEST PLAYERS... These are things to remember when reading my post particularly because I even quoted the nugget who wrote it..

Obviously Westbrook didn't do anything single handedly, but he was clearly the best guy on the floor for OKC and one of the best players on the floor for either team.. Durant on the other hand not so much.. And certainly not one of the best during the series.. You can't have the third worst shooting performances in NBA playoff history and be considered one of the best.. At least not for that series..

evadatam5150
05-02-2010, 07:27 PM
So you think Westbrook singlehandidly beat the Lakers twice and nearly 4 times? You should probably take Kobe's nuts out of your eyes and read the article again, as KD had the 3rd worst shooting % from the field in 1 game, not the series, for the sereis he got 5% worse than Kobe, but still scored 2 ppg more while taking the same amount of shots.

Durant -

Game 1: 7-24 29%
Game 2: 12-26 46%
Game 3: 8-24 33%
Game 4: 6-12 50%
Game 5: 5-14 35%
Game 6: 5-23 21%

35% Is not great any way you slice it up.. And who made this a Kobe vs Durant thing..?? He had a horrible shooting performance and again he wasn't even close to being one of the best on the floor..

aZekuiS
05-02-2010, 09:16 PM
Possessions are used when you draw a foul and get to the line.
they are not "free" points, do not let the name fool you.

if you added almost anyone's FT% to their fg% it would look much better..

instead of counting every ft as a fg attempt, it might be better to divide them by 2 first.(fts are 1 pt and you generally get 2 per trip to the line)
still not perfect, but better than just adding ft % and calling it a good performance now lol.

Okay, so again you want to combine shot attempts and free throw attempts. Durant shot 10 free throws per game, and took 20 shots from the field per game, one of those he shot 35%, the other he shot 87%, so that's 30 shots or "possessions" (as you pointlessly & wrongly keep repeating), then you combine them together and what do you get you ask? 50%. Here let me make you a popout picture book explaining this to help you understand. Send me your address and i'll have it delivered to you asap.

aZekuiS
05-02-2010, 09:20 PM
So you think Westbrook singlehandidly

Did I say that...?? Don't take my words and attempt to twist them up, you don't have the mental capacity to make a concise argument...!! My response was to a statement concerning Westbrook and Durant being the TWO best players on the floor during that series.. THE SERIES.. TWO BEST PLAYERS... These are things to remember when reading my post particularly because I even quoted the nugget who wrote it..

Obviously Westbrook didn't do anything single handedly, but he was clearly the best guy on the floor for OKC and one of the best players on the floor for either team.. Durant on the other hand not so much.. And certainly not one of the best during the series.. You can't have the third worst shooting performances in NBA playoff history and be considered one of the best.. At least not for that series..

Then how did the Thunder win 2 games and nearly 4? Sefelosha? Green? Krisitc? Harden? Who was the 2nd best player for the Thunder? Again you dolt, he didn't have the third worst shooting performance for that series, it was for 1 game.

aZekuiS
05-02-2010, 09:26 PM
Durant -

Game 1: 7-24 29%
Game 2: 12-26 46%
Game 3: 8-24 33%
Game 4: 6-12 50%
Game 5: 5-14 35%
Game 6: 5-23 21%

35% Is not great any way you slice it up.. And who made this a Kobe vs Durant thing..?? He had a horrible shooting performance and again he wasn't even close to being one of the best on the floor..

Very good. Now take his free throws into consideration then learn 1st grade math and combine his fg% with his ft%. Again, Kobe nor Durant played well, but neither were horrible. If Kobe shot 1-4 from the field and 19-21 from the line, to me that's a solid performance, to Laker fans it's horrible. Interesting.

cambovenzi
05-02-2010, 11:07 PM
Okay, so again you want to combine shot attempts and free throw attempts. Durant shot 10 free throws per game, and took 20 shots from the field per game, one of those he shot 35%, the other he shot 87%, so that's 30 shots or "possessions" (as you pointlessly & wrongly keep repeating), then you combine them together and what do you get you ask? 50%. Here let me make you a popout picture book explaining this to help you understand. Send me your address and i'll have it delivered to you asap.

absolutely ridiculous.

everyones ft % is higher than their fg%.

and i just got through saying that not every single ft is a possession used, but rather its usually 2 per possession used.
you cannot just add ft% to fg% and compare it to peoples fg%.

Most players shoot fairly well from the line.
its not automatically a good day for them no matter what else they do.


Very good. Now take his free throws into consideration then learn 1st grade math and combine his fg% with his ft%. Again, Kobe nor Durant played well, but neither were horrible. If Kobe shot 1-4 from the field and 19-21 from the line, to me that's a solid performance, to Laker fans it's horrible. Interesting.

you are making up some ridiculous scenario and making assumptions about what we would think.
durant didnt go 1-4. he went 5-23. tons of missed shots to offset his 14 fts.

evadatam5150
05-02-2010, 11:20 PM
Then how did the Thunder win 2 games and nearly 4? Sefelosha? Green? Krisitc? Harden? Who was the 2nd best player for the Thunder? Again you dolt, he didn't have the third worst shooting performance for that series, it was for 1 game.

I'd take Ibaka in a heart beat over Durant in that series you mental midget.. His defense was awesome and his hustle unmatched.. The series is based on an entire set of games and if you had any sense you would look at his numbers for the entire series and understand that Durant had a poor series.. Screw the one game, look at the body of work and realize he wasn't the best player on the floor at any point during the series.. This is like talking to a 4 year old who was just told that Disco Ken is better than GI Joe with the Kung Fu Grip..

I mean face it, Durant had a tough series.. This doesn't mean that he wont be great or have more opportunities to make his mark.. He just didn't get the job done last series.. And enough with could have should have would have won 4.. The Fact is they didn't and Durant still shot 35 percent which is not good or great or inspirational..

evadatam5150
05-02-2010, 11:27 PM
Very good. Now take his free throws into consideration then learn 1st grade math and combine his fg% with his ft%. Again, Kobe nor Durant played well, but neither were horrible. If Kobe shot 1-4 from the field and 19-21 from the line, to me that's a solid performance, to Laker fans it's horrible. Interesting.

No...!! Free throw percentage and Field goal percentage are 2 entirely different things and categories.. Tell you want, look at a box score and tell me if they combine the percentages there.. If they do then we can discuss this idiocy.. If they don't then obviously we aren't combining these percentages so you can pretend Durant shot a decent percentage.. I mean dude seriously, does Durant have you on his payroll or what.. ?? You have to be kidding me with this..

ARMIN12NBA
05-03-2010, 12:53 AM
Very good. Now take his free throws into consideration then learn 1st grade math and combine his fg% with his ft%. Again, Kobe nor Durant played well, but neither were horrible. If Kobe shot 1-4 from the field and 19-21 from the line, to me that's a solid performance, to Laker fans it's horrible. Interesting.

It isn't that simple. Remember that Durant was taking 20+ shots (not 4) and 10 free-throws (not 20+). Huge difference. There is also something called TrueShooting% which takes FG, 3pt, and FT % into account. Kobe had a higher TS% than Durant. Game over.

Chronz
05-03-2010, 01:05 PM
I cant believe this series went 7 with Durant sucking so bad

Carey
05-03-2010, 01:32 PM
we can disagree on durant but we can all agree that green is a fraud and nothing special right?

He's a undersized 4 man that does everything on the floor well but nothing great. He needs to improve his mid range jumper to be really effective as he should be but by no means is he a fraud. He continues to improve jus like the rest of our guys, he couldnt even hit the 3 his rookie year now he's a pretty decent 3 point shooter that has gotten alot stronger since he's been in the league. He's 23, he's not a finished product.

junion
05-03-2010, 01:56 PM
artest on and off the ball, bynum, gasol, and odom too... and also the "first time in the playoffs" jitters then the elimination game jitters too

all factors that lead to that shooting percentage.

cambovenzi
05-03-2010, 05:53 PM
I cant believe this series went 7 with Durant sucking so bad

it didnt..
lakers won in 6.