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View Full Version : Are the Jazz better built for the playoffs *without* Okur and AK?



DenButsu
04-26-2010, 08:50 PM
Are the Jazz better built for the playoffs *without* Okur and AK?

I don't know the answer to this question, really. But it sure seems like they're tougher, for one thing. And for another thing it seems like they just click together better - it seems to be a more jelled team than the regular season units I saw them putting on the floor - which is surprising on one hand given that they're missing some players that were thought to be key, but then, maybe not that surprising on the other hand given how big Deron and Boozer and Millsap have shown up. Teams don't really need more than three star players (see Spurs, Celtics) to have success in the playoffs, but they do need to function well together and have those stars backed up by solid role players who just know their job and do it. Which the Jazz seem to have now.

Just wondering if Utah didn't gain something in the way of addition by subtraction.

dodie53
04-26-2010, 08:54 PM
utah should find some takers for okur and ak47

Sadds The Gr8
04-26-2010, 08:58 PM
I think so...especially Okur. I think Okur didn't fit that well because it made them weaker defensively. I always thought they needed to get rid of Okur and get a true C that can rebound and block shots. Even though Fasenko isn't good at all, it still impacted the team and made them better defensively. And AK47 is pretty good, but in that system they need shooters more than a wing defender, and Wes and CJ are those shooters that they needed. Plus, Wes and CJ play pretty good D anyways. Utah should take a serious look into getting a shot blocking, defensive minded Center.

ManRam
04-26-2010, 09:00 PM
It seems like every time anyone goes down, and the team performs well, threads pop up saying "Is team so-and-so better without player x?" Usually over time, the answer is no. But I trust Den, and you do bring up some good points. They certainly do look amazing, but I do find it hard to believe that they are actually better off without those two. I think as the games go on, it will become more evident.

Either way, what they are doing is very, very impressive.

jimbobjarree
04-26-2010, 09:37 PM
I think Okur maybe, when his shot isnt falling he doesnt really provide anything. We could do with AK back though. Our biggest run this season coincided with him starting and going back to the AK of old, bring CJ's shooting off the bench and I think that makes us a stronger team. And Jerry said we were running out of gas towards the end of the last game, just to get another body back would be a huge plus too.

I've always liked the idea of having a true center in Jerry Sloan's system, but fez can never really stay on the court long enough, and has always had lapses in concentration, but he's done a solid enough job so far.

those 2 are definitely expendable in the summer (talk of if the Nets dont get any free agents their Russian owner could probably get AK and a future Jazz 1st for nothing) due to our finances being in a huge state thanks to AK's contract. They could to help free up funds if Boozer decides to stay.

but you could have a point, Jerry said our good form in the playoffs is down to us executing the best we have all season, without memo and ak.

Raoul Duke
04-26-2010, 09:41 PM
Could be. I can definitely see that being the case with Okur. Then again, it's not like they were a great matchup for Denver in the first place.

tp13baby
04-26-2010, 09:45 PM
i think they are. maybe not okur but with Williams any thing is possible

GspLAL
04-26-2010, 10:40 PM
Having a 3 point shooting center hurts that team a lot. Boozer is under sized for a PF so they don't have anyone to clog the lane and protect it with Okur on the 3 point line all the time.

wileyisTOFU
04-26-2010, 10:41 PM
Okur always seemed like a bum to me, cept when he was pulling yao outta the paint...

jimbobjarree
04-26-2010, 10:54 PM
This is why I think Aldrich could be the perfect pick for the Jazz if our pick does indeed land at 9. This team is not that far away, and it seems it plays better with a more traditional center. Aldrich could come in and contribute straight away, and maybe start by the end of the year/next season, and we could trade Okur to save money.

dukejazz
04-26-2010, 11:18 PM
Well i feel like the jazz are better with okur and ak in the playoffs. Considering fez cant score any points and memo gets around 16 a game and spreads the floor because can go outside and inside. Fez fouls too much and doesbnt reallys core and okur actually got alot of blocks this year.

AK would be alot of help on carmelo because wes and cj are letting melo average more points in the playoffs then the regular season and is letting him shoot better. HE also is a terrific defender for stealing and blocking the ball and drawing charges. Melo wouldnt be able to shoot over the top of him all game like melo does with matthews and miles.

So in my conclusion both would be alot more help. I dont even really see why people are saying how good fez is doing when if we wanted a player like that we should of just kept jarron collins. Fez gets a couple points and maybe a block and is big but not really good at all. I would rather have a center like memo than a true center that isnt very good.

JordansBulls
04-26-2010, 11:37 PM
Are the Jazz better built for the playoffs *without* Okur and AK?

I don't know the answer to this question, really. But it sure seems like they're tougher, for one thing. And for another thing it seems like they just click together better - it seems to be a more jelled team than the regular season units I saw them putting on the floor - which is surprising on one hand given that they're missing some players that were thought to be key, but then, maybe not that surprising on the other hand given how big Deron and Boozer and Millsap have shown up. Teams don't really need more than three star players (see Spurs, Celtics) to have success in the playoffs, but they do need to function well together and have those stars backed up by solid role players who just know their job and do it. Which the Jazz seem to have now.

Just wondering if Utah didn't gain something in the way of addition by subtraction.

Well they should do better against a team like LA with there new center.

Okur really was only a matchup nightmare for the Rockets because it might Yao had to defend Boozer.

Utahjazzfan18
04-27-2010, 01:39 AM
The Jazz are definitely better without Memo against certain teams, AK I don't think so. The way AK has been playing as of late, I think he makes the Jazz as much of a contender as anyone. I doubt he'll be able to play like that coming off his injury but I'd still rather have him back. Memo on the other hand, I'm still mad they even gave him that ridiculous extension for 10 million a year.

Raph12
04-27-2010, 01:46 AM
No one on the Nuggets can hold Fesenko in check because of the size difference, I'm sure Bynum will school him on both ends.

Ragun
04-27-2010, 01:50 AM
i think they would be better with okur and ak but nene has been struggling against fesenko.

abe_froman
04-27-2010, 02:19 AM
better w/o okur,but not better without ak.just like everyone has said

okur is good scoring center,but weak defensively rebounding...which is must to have with bigs to be a contender

sventhedog
04-27-2010, 03:47 AM
they would lose versatility. they still have faced only one team these playoffs so we can't really see how much they miss both of them.

HotRodsHair
04-27-2010, 09:19 AM
Thanks for the awesome question Denbutsu. As a Jazz fan I've been wondering the same to myself.

I love Okur. I honestly do. There are times when he has been our only true defensive center capable of holding up against the likes of a Yao Ming. But those types of centers aren't prevalent as they were in the 80's and 90's.

Our interior post defense has been weak for years with Boozer and Okur seldom playing a combined physical brand of defense. With the loss of Okur the team has found a new aggressive and physical demeaner that hasn't existed for many years.

One of the short comings of Okur is the fact he can so easily be defended and neutralized by a journeyman post player. For instance, during the playoff series' played a few years ago against Houston the Rockets were able to shadow Okur at the three point line with a smaller defender as they did with Chuck Hayes and unless Okur has an open shot he is hesitant to simply shoot over the top.

I think good arguments can be made for the Jazz to let Okur go if they can retain Boozer and Mathews this offseason. They simply must continue to develop Koufus and Fesenko.

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 10:42 AM
Would be nice to get a center that could at least get 10 points a game. I dont think fez is capable of that. I really dont think hes are future player and i call if we get rid of okur we dont even make the playoffs next year with just fez and kosta

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 10:51 AM
Fez will have to play really amazing to have us get rid of memo. Memo is our best free throw shooter which helps alot shooting 82%. Also 13.5 points a game. Can make a jumpshot from anywhere on the court. Played real good defense this year with 81 blocks 1.11 blocks per game. Not alot of centers got more than that. How he shoots jumpshots and outside 3s really opens up the middle which enables our guards and power forwards etc to get easier baskets.

Dont see any reason to get rid of someone like that for a player that cant shoot and cant score and is just a big body.

Iodine
04-27-2010, 10:53 AM
FML
No one has said they think Fez is a full season starter......


But their worse without AK and better without Okur. Okur's game style is best fit for a 6th man anyway imo and the jazz already have The Paperboy

Iodine
04-27-2010, 11:03 AM
Fez will have to play really amazing to have us get rid of memo. Memo is our best free throw shooter which helps alot shooting 82%. Also 13.5 points a game. Can make a jumpshot from anywhere on the court. Played real good defense this year with 81 blocks 1.11 blocks per game. Not alot of centers got more than that. How he shoots jumpshots and outside 3s really opens up the middle which enables our guards and power forwards etc to get easier baskets.

Dont see any reason to get rid of someone like that for a player that cant shoot and cant score and is just a big body.

81 blocks is good for 36th in the league......
Also he has been horribly inefficient this year in both raw and advanced stats
.458 Shooting (3rd worst of career), 109 O Rating (one of 3 times he's dipped below 110), 2nd worst win share total, and a "decent" eFG%

Chronz
04-27-2010, 12:16 PM
If AK47 was here this series would probably be over as they would actually have someone to check Melo. Okur was their best post defender but with Nene not even being aggressive his absence hasnt been felt so yes to Okur, theyve been forced to play Booz-Milsap more and thats a good thing.

Utahjazzfan18
04-27-2010, 01:16 PM
I don't think the Jazz have lost a game with Fesenko in the starting lineup. If I remember correctly, they were 6-0 in the regular season and now 3-0 in the playoffs with him as a starter.

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 01:32 PM
FML
No one has said they think Fez is a full season starter......


But their worse without AK and better without Okur. Okur's game style is best fit for a 6th man anyway imo and the jazz already have The Paperboy

So your saying have fez start because if they are better without him you think the jazz could beat there record with fez and without okur.I call we get rid of memo and just keep fez and kosta we miss playoffs

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 01:33 PM
81 blocks is good for 36th in the league......
Also he has been horribly inefficient this year in both raw and advanced stats
.458 Shooting (3rd worst of career), 109 O Rating (one of 3 times he's dipped below 110), 2nd worst win share total, and a "decent" eFG%

So you are saying hes the 36th worst center in blocks? I doubt that.

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 01:36 PM
I dont see why jazz fans keep saying how bad okur is when he is an awesome player for our team. One of the best centers at blocking stretches the defense because he can shoot anywhere and you cant foul him because hes our best free throw shooter. Overall a great center for our team.

iggypop123
04-27-2010, 01:38 PM
no they were just lucky not to draw the lakers this season. last 2 seasons tough luck for them, lakers have their number and denver has thrown in the towel. melo is already calling out teamamtes

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 01:50 PM
no they were just lucky not to draw the lakers this season. last 2 seasons tough luck for them, lakers have their number and denver has thrown in the towel. melo is already calling out teamamtes

Well denver had our number this season too and we are beating them. We can beat the lakers too if the lakers can even get past the fiirst round.

jimbobjarree
04-27-2010, 02:29 PM
No one on the Nuggets can hold Fesenko in check because of the size difference, I'm sure Bynum will school him on both ends.

Fez made his NBA debut against the Lakers and held his own, got 6 points 7 boards and held drew to 8 points 10 boards

granted this was a long long time ago though

Ware_Spencer
04-27-2010, 02:58 PM
Well i feel like the jazz are better with okur and ak in the playoffs. Considering fez cant score any points and memo gets around 16 a game and spreads the floor because can go outside and inside. Fez fouls too much and doesbnt reallys core and okur actually got alot of blocks this year.

AK would be alot of help on carmelo because wes and cj are letting melo average more points in the playoffs then the regular season and is letting him shoot better. HE also is a terrific defender for stealing and blocking the ball and drawing charges. Melo wouldnt be able to shoot over the top of him all game like melo does with matthews and miles.

So in my conclusion both would be alot more help. I dont even really see why people are saying how good fez is doing when if we wanted a player like that we should of just kept jarron collins. Fez gets a couple points and maybe a block and is big but not really good at all. I would rather have a center like memo than a true center that isnt very good.

Well your obviously a stat fan and you don't understand what protecting the paint means. Blocks are way overrated and rebounds can be overrated to an extent.
If you were watching the game and studying the game of basketball you would understand this. Rather than watching wherever the ball is. Watching plays develop.

Fesenko clogs the lane. He is VERY athletic for someone his size. He is long and he a mobile. He takes up the entire paint and does very well against the pick and roll compared to Boozer and Okur. He contests shots and intimidates players. They can't get easy shots and they also cannot penetrate and kick out for 3.
Fesenko is the key to them winning. The jazz are not better off with AK injured. They are better off with Okur injured. Okur is a liability on defense and so was Collins. Neither can protect the basket or guard the pick and roll. Not big enough or quick enough.
Fesenko also takes up a lot of space and boxes out his man so the quicker players like Millsap and Boozer can get more rebounds. Look how there rebounding stats have gone up. And watch the defensive rebounds. He also keeps balls alive and tips them. Fesenko does the little things with his size that nobody else on the team can
Fesenko is the key.

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 03:06 PM
Well your obviously a stat fan and you don't understand what protecting the paint means. Blocks are way overrated and rebounds can be overrated to an extent.
If you were watching the game and studying the game of basketball you would understand this. Rather than watching wherever the ball is. Watching plays develop.

Fesenko clogs the lane. He is VERY athletic for someone his size. He is long and he a mobile. He takes up the entire paint and does very well against the pick and roll compared to Boozer and Okur. He contests shots and intimidates players. They can't get easy shots and they also cannot penetrate and kick out for 3.
Fesenko is the key to them winning. The jazz are not better off with AK injured. They are better off with Okur injured. Okur is a liability on defense and so was Collins. Neither can protect the basket or guard the pick and roll. Not big enough or quick enough.
Fesenko also takes up a lot of space and boxes out his man so the quicker players like Millsap and Boozer can get more rebounds. Look how there rebounding stats have gone up. And watch the defensive rebounds. He also keeps balls alive and tips them. Fesenko does the little things with his size that nobody else on the team can
Fesenko is the key.
Lol a stat fan? Actually im obviously a jazz fan and watch them play alot. Lots of people go by stats. Because thats how they play. Its how they play on paper. YA i know what plays are i dont see what that has to do with blocks and rebounds. I coached alot in jr jazz and church ball and knew how to run plays etc and when i played and practiced basketball in high school. So dont give me any criticism. Blocks overrated? So are steals overrated too and points? Defense is overrated?

So you are basically saying fesenko is better than okur because he clogs the lane? Athleticism doesnt matter if you dont use it.Lol hes better at the pick and rule then memo and okur? Have you even seen him play? Lol i would rather have okur back then fez and probably would most jazz fans. A stst fan and then you talka bout how rebounding goes up etc.

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 03:07 PM
I still cant believe you are saying fez is way better than memo.lol

D-Leethal
04-27-2010, 03:44 PM
Having a 3 point shooting center hurts that team a lot. Boozer is under sized for a PF so they don't have anyone to clog the lane and protect it with Okur on the 3 point line all the time.

why would you want to clog the lane on offense? If anything, Okur opens up the lane on offense. Him being a 3 pt shooting big on offense has nothing to do with where he is positioned on defense.

Iodine
04-27-2010, 03:55 PM
Well your obviously a stat fan and you don't understand what protecting the paint means. Blocks are way overrated and rebounds can be overrated to an extent.
If you were watching the game and studying the game of basketball you would understand this. Rather than watching wherever the ball is. Watching plays develop.

Fesenko clogs the lane. He is VERY athletic for someone his size. He is long and he a mobile. He takes up the entire paint and does very well against the pick and roll compared to Boozer and Okur. He contests shots and intimidates players. They can't get easy shots and they also cannot penetrate and kick out for 3.
Fesenko is the key to them winning. The jazz are not better off with AK injured. They are better off with Okur injured. Okur is a liability on defense and so was Collins. Neither can protect the basket or guard the pick and roll. Not big enough or quick enough.
Fesenko also takes up a lot of space and boxes out his man so the quicker players like Millsap and Boozer can get more rebounds. Look how there rebounding stats have gone up. And watch the defensive rebounds. He also keeps balls alive and tips them. Fesenko does the little things with his size that nobody else on the team can
Fesenko is the key.

I love you, please post more

futureman
04-27-2010, 04:15 PM
I think so...especially Okur. I think Okur didn't fit that well because it made them weaker defensively. I always thought they needed to get rid of Okur and get a true C that can rebound and block shots. Even though Fasenko isn't good at all, it still impacted the team and made them better defensively. And AK47 is pretty good, but in that system they need shooters more than a wing defender, and Wes and CJ are those shooters that they needed. Plus, Wes and CJ play pretty good D anyways. Utah should take a serious look into getting a shot blocking, defensive minded Center.

Thats what New Yorks lottery pick will be for. To draft Hassan Whiteside if it's not in the top 3.

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 04:39 PM
why would you want to clog the lane on offense? If anything, Okur opens up the lane on offense. Him being a 3 pt shooting big on offense has nothing to do with where he is positioned on defense.

exactly. You want to open up the lane.

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 04:40 PM
i think its funny taht people want to get rid of memo. They must not watch jazz agmes to think fez is better.

SteveNash
04-27-2010, 04:46 PM
They're better off without Kirilenko.

spoonhoops
04-27-2010, 04:50 PM
At this point it don't matter if the Jazz are built for the playoffs or not without Okur & AK if they play the Lakers. The Lakers will smash them like they normally do cuz they match up too well with the Jazz. If the Jazz play the Thunder in round 2, I would say they are still built for the playoffs and think they would have a great chance to make it to the finals.

abe_froman
04-27-2010, 04:53 PM
i think its funny taht people want to get rid of memo. They must not watch jazz agmes to think fez is better.

its not anyone thinks fez is a better player,but its not always about talent comparisons.its what they bring,how they fit

and while having a 3pt shooting center is ok for the regular season,it becomes a main different between being a pretender and being a contender in the post season

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 04:59 PM
They're better off without Kirilenko.

Can you give a reason why?

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 05:00 PM
its not anyone thinks fez is a better player,but its not always about talent comparisons.its what they bring,how they fit

and while having a 3pt shooting center is ok for the regular season,it becomes a main different between being a pretender and being a contender in the post season

I just wish memo wouldnt of been injured then i could prove he plays better in the playoffs.

abe_froman
04-27-2010, 05:04 PM
I just wish memo wouldnt of been injured then i could prove he plays better in the playoffs.

dirk shows up in the playoffs right? monstrous,heroic games and series from him...yet every year he gets killed.its not always about offensive production

MrFastBreak
04-27-2010, 05:21 PM
They're better off without Kirilenko.

What makes you so certain? There's no question the Jazz have shown that the absence of AK47 hasnt hurt them, but it doesnt mean theyre better off without him either. If Melo's the only guy for the Nuggs who's playing well and they already have about a slim chance of winning let alone coming back in the series, wouldnt you think AK would really diminish their chances of winning by defending Melo?

Ware_Spencer
04-27-2010, 05:22 PM
Lol a stat fan? Actually im obviously a jazz fan and watch them play alot. Lots of people go by stats. Because thats how they play. Its how they play on paper. YA i know what plays are i dont see what that has to do with blocks and rebounds. I coached alot in jr jazz and church ball and knew how to run plays etc and when i played and practiced basketball in high school. So dont give me any criticism. Blocks overrated? So are steals overrated too and points? Defense is overrated?

So you are basically saying fesenko is better than okur because he clogs the lane? Athleticism doesnt matter if you dont use it.Lol hes better at the pick and rule then memo and okur? Have you even seen him play? Lol i would rather have okur back then fez and probably would most jazz fans. A stst fan and then you talka bout how rebounding goes up etc.

Just because you watch the games doesn't mean you know basketball. People usually just watch where the ball is going rather than how the play develops.
Your right lots of people go by stats that is why most fans like Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady. Fans love these type of players. Stats are overrated in every category. If your on a bad team you can put up a lot of points. If you don't pass you can put up a lot of points but you kill team chemistry. That is when the Lakers lose. When Kobe tries to dominate too much rather than play within the offense.
If guys are getting into the lane lets say 30 times in a game. And you block 2 shots a game. You still have 28 other shots that you have to account for. Contesting a shot and intimidating a shot cannot be put into a statistical category. Taking up space in the paint and not allowing guys to get offensive rebounds is huge. And Fesenko was doing that.
I also never said that stats do not matter. I said they are overrated. Combining observation with stats work. And most fans like you are not putting enough observation into it.
Fesenko has been amazing at clogging the paint on defense. Okur is horrible at it. He moves out of the way or swipes at the ball. He is pathetic. Boozer is not better. But Boozer at least gets into the paint and creates good balance with the shooters and slashers. Okur can only shoot from the outside. Nothing else. I am sorry but there are a lot of SG/SF's who can do that. Okur doesn't provide anything on the defensive end. He only hurts. He sets a screen on his own man and guys get lay ups. Its pathetic to watch opposing PG's not be afraid to drive right at Okur. He sucks. You can't beat the good teams without protecting the paint. All championship teams had a guy like that(atleast 1 guy). Boozer and Okur are a horrible combination.

Yes I have watched Fesenko and Okur play for years. Its pathetic that only when Okur shoots bad from the field do Jazz fans realize we need a change. When he shoots well nobody says anything about his defense. I have been calling for him to be shipped out for years. Even his All-star year.
Okur is too slow to play at PF and is he too weak and soft to play C. He would be a good back up center for about 5 Million a year. But you cannot beat the good teams with good Slashers and good Big men with a guy like Okur. Yes we can win a lot of games during the season and catch some teams off guard. But when playoff time comes. Okur sucks. And you can drive right at him on defense and post him up all you want.
Clogging the lane with a big guy is the most important part of defense. There is a chain reacton to not having that. Easy lay ups. Than the defense sucks in than they get open 3's.
When you have a guy like Fesenko in the paint the wing players can take chances on defense and player tougher and closer to there man because they know a REAL CENTER is behind them to help. You cannot do that with Okur.
Its a huge difference between the 2. Nene can't even get off a good shot with Fesenko. Melo isn't getting as many layups. And I know you stat fans will say "Well he still scored a lot of points". Look how he got his points. Mostly off jump shots. When Melo gets into the paint it opens things up for other players. Like Billups and JR. Have you noticed that JR Smith has done nothing since Fesenko came in? He isn't getting the easy shots. It all goes back to Center play. And its obvious to people who understand defense and the game of basketball.
The Nuggets have not had proper floor spacing since Fesenko has been playing bigger minutes.

SteveNash
04-27-2010, 05:22 PM
Can you give a reason why?


What makes you so certain? There's no question the Jazz have shown that the absence of AK47 hasnt hurt them, but it doesnt mean theyre better off without him either. If Melo's the only guy for the Nuggs who's playing well and they already have about a slim chance of winning let alone coming back in the series, wouldnt you think AK would really diminish their chances of winning by defending Melo?

He's a terrible defender. Anyone acting like Kirilenko would shut Anthony down and the Jazz would sweep the series just hasn't been paying attention. He's frail, soft and slow. Anthony wouldn't have much of a problem abusing Kirilenko. He'd get AK in foul trouble, AK would start crying again, Denver would shoot more free throws. AK would try to do too much with the ball and fail miserably. Much better to have a role player like Matthews know his role and do what he's told.

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 05:24 PM
What makes you so certain? There's no question the Jazz have shown that the absence of AK47 hasnt hurt them, but it doesnt mean theyre better off without him either. If Melo's the only guy for the Nuggs who's playing well and they already have about a slim chance of winning let alone coming back in the series, wouldnt you think AK would really diminish their chances of winning by defending Melo?

exactly:clap:

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 05:35 PM
Just because you watch the games doesn't mean you know basketball. People usually just watch where the ball is going rather than how the play develops.
Your right lots of people go by stats that is why most fans like Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady. Fans love these type of players. Stats are overrated in every category. If your on a bad team you can put up a lot of points. If you don't pass you can put up a lot of points but you kill team chemistry. That is when the Lakers lose. When Kobe tries to dominate too much rather than play within the offense.
If guys are getting into the lane lets say 30 times in a game. And you block 2 shots a game. You still have 48 other shots that you have to account for. Contesting a shot and intimidating a shot cannot be put into a statistical category. Taking up space in the paint and not allowing guys to get offensive rebounds is huge. And Fesenko was doing that.
I also never said that stats do not matter. I said they are overrated. Combining observation with stats work. And most fans like you are not putting enough observation into it.
Fesenko has been amazing at clogging the paint on defense. Okur is horrible at it. He moves out of the way or swipes at the ball. He is pathetic. Boozer is not better. But Boozer at least gets into the paint and creates good balance with the shooters and slashers. Okur can only shoot from the outside. Nothing else. I am sorry but there are a lot of SG/SF's who can do that. Okur doesn't provide anything on the defensive end. He only hurts. He sets a screen on his own man and guys get lay ups. Its pathetic to watch opposing PG's not be afraid to drive right at Okur. He sucks. You can't be the good teams without protecting the paint. All championship teams had a guy like that. At lease 1 guy. Boozer and Okur are a horrible combination.

Actually i do watch how the play develops. The jazz do alot of pick and rolls and run there plays really well which really helps them lead the league in assists.So dont tell me i dont watch how the play develops.

Okur is not horrible at clogging the lane. He contests shots and blocks and is able to stay in the game when fez fouls way too much. Boozer isnt as good at defense but hes a big strong body you got to geta round so he clogs his guy. Okur is not pathetic.lol. He contributes more to the team then fez just like williams contributes more than price even though price provides energy and real good defense.Okur cant only shoot from the outside he drives to the hoop and shoots all over teh floor. He is a complete player. Especially when game is on the line you can pass to okur.Also how can you say hes horrible at it with all the blocks he gets and contesting the ball when the opposing player shoots. Also when other players struggle okur is a great shooter that has helped us in alot of comebacks. I dont see fez leading us back from behind.

Okur doesnt provide anything on defensive end? Except blocking alot of shots and getting rebounds. Also okur is alot faster then fez. Fez looks confused in there and especially if he gets in trouble he throws the ball away or gets fouled and misses free throws.

Okur helped us alot in previous playoffs. When we beat golden state and houston.

Boozer and okur horrible combination?lol

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 05:38 PM
He's a terrible defender. Anyone acting like Kirilenko would shut Anthony down and the Jazz would sweep the series just hasn't been paying attention. He's frail, soft and slow. Anthony wouldn't have much of a problem abusing Kirilenko. He'd get AK in foul trouble, AK would start crying again, Denver would shoot more free throws. AK would try to do too much with the ball and fail miserably. Much better to have a role player like Matthews know his role and do what he's told.

kirilenko a terrible defender? lol wow you do not know him then. Hes good at steals and contesting shots with his wingspan and getting blocks and we play alot better against teams like denver or okc when we make the teams star shoot ove rthe top and you cant do that against ak. Also ak is really fats so dont get how hes slow?
Kirilenko is also an amazing passer thats why alot of our offensive plays involve him passing.

SteveNash
04-27-2010, 05:48 PM
kirilenko a terrible defender? lol wow you do not know him then. Hes good at steals and contesting shots with his wingspan and getting blocks and we play alot better against teams like denver or okc when we make the teams star shoot ove rthe top and you cant do that against ak. Also ak is really fats so dont get how hes slow?
Kirilenko is also an amazing passer thats why alot of our offensive plays involve him passing.

Well I'd like to just stick to his man defense on Carmelo since some brought that up. Carmelo has really never had much trouble going up against him so I don't know why you'd expect it to be different in the playoffs. Especially when AK will have to face him at least 4 times. And everyone knows how mentally weak AK is.

Ware_Spencer
04-27-2010, 05:48 PM
Actually i do watch how the play develops. The jazz do alot of pick and rolls and run there plays really well which really helps them lead the league in assists.So dont tell me i dont watch how the play develops.

Okur is not horrible at clogging the lane. He contests shots and blocks and is able to stay in the game when fez fouls way too much. Boozer isnt as good at defense but hes a big strong body you got to geta round so he clogs his guy. Okur is not pathetic.lol. He contributes more to the team then fez just like williams contributes more than price even though price provides energy and real good defense.Okur cant only shoot from the outside he drives to the hoop and shoots all over teh floor. He is a complete player. Especially when game is on the line you can pass to okur.Also how can you say hes horrible at it with all the blocks he gets and contesting the ball when the opposing player shoots. Also when other players struggle okur is a great shooter that has helped us in alot of comebacks. I dont see fez leading us back from behind.

Okur doesnt provide anything on defensive end? Except blocking alot of shots and getting rebounds. Also okur is alot faster then fez. Fez looks confused in there and especially if he gets in trouble he throws the ball away or gets fouled and misses free throws.

Okur helped us alot in previous playoffs. When we beat golden state and houston.

Boozer and okur horrible combination?lol

Okur is not a good rebounder and he blocks 1 shot a game. He does not clog the lane at all! You are a moron! I am sorry but to say he clogs the lane is ********. He moves out of the way or swipes almost every time.
Okur is not faster than Fez. Sorry but laterally Fez is quicker. Okur can't move side to side. Fesenko runs the floor harder too. Okur is a horrible passer so don't say that Fesenko is way worse. Fesenko isn't good at passing but he doesn't need to be. He just stays around the paint. Okur needs to be because he is around the 3 point line. Okur throws the ball away a lot.
And of course we can beat the Warriors with Okur and the Rockets. Yao is slow and can't run around Okur. And the Warriors are tiny. Those are not contending playoff teams.
Guys with athletic long big guys are the elite teams. We will always lose to teams like Lakers, Cavs, Magic, Spurs etc in the playoffs with Okur & Boozer at the front court. We cannot stop the slashers or big guys.
The Jazz can score with anybody. We don't need Okur. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. The Jazz's offense is amazing. And Fesenko is the missing piece. He is not the ideal Center. But he provides the little things that Centers need to provide to win.
Yes Fesenko gets into Foul trouble. He is young but a lot of his fouls were good fouls. Guys driving into the lane and he fouled them hard and DID NOT GIVE THE THE LAYUP! Okur and Boozer swipe down. I swear the Jazz lead the league in allowing 3 point plays. We give so many away with Okur playing. Fesenko protects the basket. Okur does not! Get it through your head.

MrFastBreak
04-27-2010, 05:51 PM
He's a terrible defender. Anyone acting like Kirilenko would shut Anthony down and the Jazz would sweep the series just hasn't been paying attention. He's frail, soft and slow. Anthony wouldn't have much of a problem abusing Kirilenko. He'd get AK in foul trouble, AK would start crying again, Denver would shoot more free throws. AK would try to do too much with the ball and fail miserably. Much better to have a role player like Matthews know his role and do what he's told.

What has AK ever done to you, cuz youre clearly talking out of your ***?

Ware_Spencer
04-27-2010, 05:52 PM
Jazz are not better without AK. AK could help out guarding Melo. Sloan would rotate all 3 players on him and make him change his game up constantly. It would throw off Melo a little bit.
Melo is still going to get his points but Melo's scoring does not bother me. Its Billups and Smith that scare me. And AK's length bothers players just like Fesenko's does.

P.S. Fesenko might as well be a rookie. He has not had time to develop and he has not played consistent. The things you are criticizing him for will improve as the games go along. He just needs experience. Fesenko is way athletic for his size. He uses it all the time. Rotating on defense is the biggest thing he does for us.

SteveNash
04-27-2010, 05:55 PM
What has AK ever done to you, cuz youre clearly talking out of your ***?

Just speaking the truth brother. AK is a terrible man defender.

Ware_Spencer
04-27-2010, 05:58 PM
Just speaking the truth brother. AK is a terrible man defender.

I wouldn't say he is terrible. That is not the truth. But he is for sure overrated. He is a change up man to man defender. Where he succeeds is help defending.
AK reaches too much and guys can run around him. He isn't terrible but he is for sure not the guy you want guarding Melo the whole game.

SteveNash
04-27-2010, 05:59 PM
Wes Mathews is the better defender. AK is not needed.

Ware_Spencer
04-27-2010, 06:03 PM
Wes Mathews is the better defender. AK is not needed.

Matthews and CJ Miles are better defenders than AK (man to man). But AK is good to rotate on him because of his length. It makes it so players can't get into the flow of the game as easily when you rotate. AK helps the jazz. He would help on help defense. And he would help with his length.

MrFastBreak
04-27-2010, 06:22 PM
Just speaking the truth brother. AK is a terrible man defender.


Wes Mathews is the better defender. AK is not needed.

Proof?

Ware_Spencer
04-27-2010, 06:24 PM
Proof?

You can't prove an opinion.

An opinion cannot be factual (Unless you control the media or your a dictator. lol)

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 06:35 PM
Okur is not a good rebounder and he blocks 1 shot a game. He does not clog the lane at all! You are a moron! I am sorry but to say he clogs the lane is ********. He moves out of the way or swipes almost every time.
Okur is not faster than Fez. Sorry but laterally Fez is quicker. Okur can't move side to side. Fesenko runs the floor harder too. Okur is a horrible passer so don't say that Fesenko is way worse. Fesenko isn't good at passing but he doesn't need to be. He just stays around the paint. Okur needs to be because he is around the 3 point line. Okur throws the ball away a lot.
And of course we can beat the Warriors with Okur and the Rockets. Yao is slow and can't run around Okur. And the Warriors are tiny. Those are not contending playoff teams.
Guys with athletic long big guys are the elite teams. We will always lose to teams like Lakers, Cavs, Magic, Spurs etc in the playoffs with Okur & Boozer at the front court. We cannot stop the slashers or big guys.
The Jazz can score with anybody. We don't need Okur. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. The Jazz's offense is amazing. And Fesenko is the missing piece. He is not the ideal Center. But he provides the little things that Centers need to provide to win.
Yes Fesenko gets into Foul trouble. He is young but a lot of his fouls were good fouls. Guys driving into the lane and he fouled them hard and DID NOT GIVE THE THE LAYUP! Okur and Boozer swipe down. I swear the Jazz lead the league in allowing 3 point plays. We give so many away with Okur playing. Fesenko protects the basket. Okur does not! Get it through your head.

Show me me alot of centers taht block mroe than 1 shot a game?Thats right you cant. You are the moron. I watch jazz games so i know how memo clogs the lane.Okur is faster fez is slow especially on defense. Okur is an ok passer. Fez is just plain horrible at it and usually ends in a turnover. Okur doesnt throw the ball away alot or he would average alot more than 1 turnover a game. I dont think pau gasol is an athletic biz guy or big z and tehy both are playoff contenders.

Fouls are not good fouls if you cant stay in the game. Most important job for center is not foul alot. Stay in the game. Most important job for any starter.

I call if fez would of started every game this season jazz would of had a way worse record.

MrFastBreak
04-27-2010, 06:35 PM
You can't prove an opinion.

An opinion cannot be factual (Unless you control the media or your a dictator. lol)

He could still back his opinions up and share the evidence that leads to him believing such things.

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 06:39 PM
Wes Mathews is the better defender. AK is not needed.

Ya right wes and miles are holding anthony to 24 points per game and 53% shooting. How is taht awesome defense against melo? So your saying melo would be scoring more than taht with ak on him?

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 06:41 PM
He could still back his opinions up and share the evidence that leads to him believing such things.

Exactly thats liek me saying kobe bryant is a horrible shooter taht the only reaosn he scores is because of being wideopen. Everyone knows kobe is a good shooter.

jimbobjarree
04-27-2010, 07:01 PM
He's a terrible defender. Anyone acting like Kirilenko would shut Anthony down and the Jazz would sweep the series just hasn't been paying attention. He's frail, soft and slow. Anthony wouldn't have much of a problem abusing Kirilenko. He'd get AK in foul trouble, AK would start crying again, Denver would shoot more free throws. AK would try to do too much with the ball and fail miserably. Much better to have a role player like Matthews know his role and do what he's told.

haha wow, whats the weather like back there in 2007 today?

jimbobjarree
04-27-2010, 07:03 PM
I swear the Jazz lead the league in allowing 3 point plays. We give so many away with Okur playing.

I've been thinking that for years

Ware you should post more in the Jazz forum, can never have too many logical arguers

jimbobjarree
04-27-2010, 07:05 PM
Just speaking the truth brother. AK is a terrible man defender.

he's a great weakside defender, which I think overated him in peoples minds as a defender in general, but he's long and he's quick, and that is needed by the Jazz on defense if they are going to go deep in these playoffs.

Ware_Spencer
04-27-2010, 07:49 PM
Show me me alot of centers taht block mroe than 1 shot a game?Thats right you cant. You are the moron. I watch jazz games so i know how memo clogs the lane.Okur is faster fez is slow especially on defense. Okur is an ok passer. Fez is just plain horrible at it and usually ends in a turnover. Okur doesnt throw the ball away alot or he would average alot more than 1 turnover a game. I dont think pau gasol is an athletic biz guy or big z and tehy both are playoff contenders.

Fouls are not good fouls if you cant stay in the game. Most important job for center is not foul alot. Stay in the game. Most important job for any starter.

I call if fez would of started every game this season jazz would of had a way worse record.

Fesenko can average a block a game if given 30 minutes a game. That is not hard to do.
Wow well your the first Jazz fan I have ever heard say Okur clogs the lane on defense. Congrats! ha ha
Okur doesn't get that many opportunities to pass. But when he is out at the 3 I see him make a lot of bad passes. Fesenko does to but he isn't experienced. He needs time. Game speed is way different that practice speed.
Gasol is way long and tall. And Okur doesn't even come close to his length. Fesenko does. And Fesenko is a lot stronger so he can keep Gasol out of the paint.

dukejazz
04-27-2010, 09:32 PM
Fesenko can average a block a game if given 30 minutes a game. That is not hard to do.
Wow well your the first Jazz fan I have ever heard say Okur clogs the lane on defense. Congrats! ha ha
Okur doesn't get that many opportunities to pass. But when he is out at the 3 I see him make a lot of bad passes. Fesenko does to but he isn't experienced. He needs time. Game speed is way different that practice speed.
Gasol is way long and tall. And Okur doesn't even come close to his length. Fesenko does. And Fesenko is a lot stronger so he can keep Gasol out of the paint.

You can't predict the future. Fez fouls too much to get alot of minutes.
Lol all centers clog the lane thats why they defend there guy. Hes 268 pounds where else is he if hes not clogging the lane? Also how doies he get so many blocks then? Okur usually doesnt pass when hes behind the 3 becuase he is usually shooting. He really opens up the jazz playbook.

Ware_Spencer
04-28-2010, 02:03 PM
You can't predict the future. Fez fouls too much to get alot of minutes.
Lol all centers clog the lane thats why they defend there guy. Hes 268 pounds where else is he if hes not clogging the lane? Also how doies he get so many blocks then? Okur usually doesnt pass when hes behind the 3 becuase he is usually shooting. He really opens up the jazz playbook.

You have no idea what clogging the lane is. And you just proved my point. You think that clogging the lane is just guarding your guy.
clogging the lane is help defense and not allowing slashers into the paint. Okur does not do this. You either are half ******** or are blind if you honestly think that Okur clogs the lane and protects the paint. And keeps the wing players and PG's from getting into the lane. We are soft inside without Fesenko. Thats why teams with athletic swing players have career scoring nights against us because we can't stop penetration.
He gets 1 block a game. Lots of Centers do that. Millsap gets 1 block a game but that does not mean he clogs the lane either. AK does not clog the lane and he actually never has. Even when he was getting 3 blocks a game. That is weak side help. And clogging the lane is having a presence inside and not allowing them to go around them or by them. Giving them the only option to shoot a fade away or kick it back out. And that is what Fesenko has provided. If you still don't understand the difference between blocking shots, post defense & clogging the lane than you need to study more. Becaue all 3 of those things are different.

You are right Okur does open up the playbook with his shooting. But it also hurts in a way too. Having Deron, CJ, Matthews and Okur all at the 3 point line can hurt us. We don't have proper floor spacing. Fesenko stays next to the hoop so the spacing is better. When is Okur is at the 3 point line. That means his defender is also and the pick and pop between Boozer and Williams sometimes doesn't work as well.
Boozer was shooting with 2 people around him late in the year some games. Nobody is inside when Okur is in the game. Boozer doesn't stay around the paint. He slashers and shoots from the mid range. We rely too much on the 3 point shot on fast breaks when Okur is in the game. We are taking it to the paint more often. Which is helping our transition defense when we miss the shot. Long 3 pointers lead to fast breaks. Deron hits Okur trailing way to often and it exposes us on defense.

I am not saying its bad to have Okur shooting from the 3 for offense. But what he does for us on offense does not make up for his LACK OF CLOGGING THE LANE!

ballpd05
04-28-2010, 02:16 PM
I don't think you can deny their effectiveness without them. I like the wing rotations with Matthews, Miles, and Korver better than I do with AK 47 who every time I watch him he looks like he is self check (maybe wrong, but he still looks like he hasn't found his swag from a couple years back). Okur isn't as tough as Fasenko and it has caused issues for the Nuggets who expected to bully the Jazz inside, I think that Okur helps with his range and even when he isn't hitting the percentages say you still need to respect him.

I like what they have going now and I think for the most part you do not incorporate AK and Okur into the lineup unless you need to exploit a matchup. That likely won't happen though since both are veterans who expect to be playing because of their past work. I say see what you can get for them in the offseason.

jimbobjarree
04-28-2010, 02:17 PM
I think the Jazz would be just fine getting rid of Okur if we could sign/draft that 4th big (Cole Aldrich/Hassan Whiteside) to come in while Fez develops and learns not to foul so much.

Problem is, who the hell is going to want Okur?

jimbobjarree
04-28-2010, 02:26 PM
I don't think you can deny their effectiveness without them. I like the wing rotations with Matthews, Miles, and Korver better than I do with AK 47 who every time I watch him he looks like he is self check (maybe wrong, but he still looks like he hasn't found his swag from a couple years back)

I think AK had gotten his swag back in his last few games, but the injuries screwed him up as he was regaining his form. In his last month playing he averaged 17 points 5 boards 3.2 dimes 2.5 steals 2.3 blocks whilst shooting 62%. In that time the Jazz went 12-1. After he went down the Jazz immediatly dropped 3 of their next 6. So until I see AK back healthy, I still think we are a much more dangerous team with him on court firing.

Raph12
04-28-2010, 02:30 PM
I believe Melo abused Kirelenko in the season... But can't get much worse than 34.5ppg on 53-46-94 I guess.

jimbobjarree
04-28-2010, 02:36 PM
Melo has always abused Kirilenko because he is much stronger than him. AK has length, so he can affect Melo's shooting as he cant shoot over him as easily as he does with Miles/Matthews. But as people were saying earlier, the chain reaction of Fez clogging up the middle is forcing Denver into more of a perimeter game. We havnt seen AK guard Melo with Fez in the paint yet, before he could force his way inside and finnish easy as Memo+Booz arent going to do anything. Would have been interesting to see how having Fez behind him would affect the way AK guarded Melo.

Plus its another body to switch it up, and help keep the other 2 guys fresh.

dukejazz
04-28-2010, 02:59 PM
YA i liek having okur because i want the jazz to be a playoff contender and make the playoffs again. I dont want the jazz to have to develop a rookie in the draft or fez and have a losing season.

SteveNash
04-28-2010, 03:57 PM
Matthews and CJ Miles are better defenders than AK (man to man). But AK is good to rotate on him because of his length. It makes it so players can't get into the flow of the game as easily when you rotate. AK helps the jazz. He would help on help defense. And he would help with his length.

You can also get a player out of the flow by changing up team defense. Much more effective than putting a weak defender on him.


Proof?

Carmelo's play against AK during the season versus his play during the playoffs.


Ya right wes and miles are holding anthony to 24 points per game and 53% shooting. How is taht awesome defense against melo? So your saying melo would be scoring more than taht with ak on him?

Jazz with AK let him get 33.5 ppg on 55% shooting and who really cares if he goes off. He can average 50 ppg on 60% as long as he keeps turning the ball over, not getting his teammates involved, playing bad defense, and not getting to the line much.