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R_O_W_E
04-11-2010, 01:15 PM
To start off the list as was voted on several days ago, LeBron James with 47 votes out of 78 votes cast was voted as PSD's #1 Player In The NBA.

Poll Is Intended To Rank Players In The NBA.

Who is the 2nd best player in the NBA?

Shady66
04-11-2010, 01:16 PM
bean

dsickich123
04-11-2010, 01:20 PM
To be Honest if anyone picks any player other than Kobe, DWade, Dwight, or Durant....they are wrong. period.

aman_13
04-11-2010, 01:23 PM
Come on guys, Lebron and Kobe are 1 and 2. This should be a quick poll.

Strumpy
04-11-2010, 01:24 PM
Come on guys, Lebron and Kobe are 1 and 2. This should be a quick poll.

This.

bigsams50
04-11-2010, 01:42 PM
Kobe easily

MacFitz92
04-11-2010, 01:47 PM
To be Honest if anyone picks any player other than Kobe, DWade, Dwight, or Durant....they are wrong. period.

Throw Dirk in there since you have Durant and Wade in there.

Niro
04-11-2010, 01:49 PM
its kobeeee

-Kobe24-TJ19-
04-11-2010, 01:51 PM
lebron

RadiantShot
04-11-2010, 01:51 PM
Kobe.

J$mo0th_3o5
04-11-2010, 01:53 PM
Wade passed Kobe last year imo

Lakerfrk
04-11-2010, 01:55 PM
Wade passed Kobe last year imo

yea... I forgot how Wade drove his team to the championship last year. :rolleyes:

Lakersfan2483
04-11-2010, 01:56 PM
Lebron James

RadiantShot
04-11-2010, 01:56 PM
Dj Mbenga

Lakersfan2483
04-11-2010, 02:00 PM
Dj Mbenga

He's not no. 2, but he's top 5.:Dlol

JLynn943
04-11-2010, 02:03 PM
Wade. People only vote Kobe based on reputation/past accomplishments and homerism.

and I'm not going to argue with any Laker fans, so don't bother.

FOBolous
04-11-2010, 02:03 PM
i voted for Chris Paul. dude's a beast. best PG we've seen in the league since John Stockton...perhaps the one of the top 3 PG in the league EVER. he's just been a little under the radar this year because of his injuries.

Kobe's #3 in my opinion simply because the Lakers seem to play better without him. but his ability as a player is unquestionable.

Wade is #4 to me. haven't really unaccomplished much since Shaq left but his numbers has been off the charts.

Lakersfan2483
04-11-2010, 02:14 PM
i voted for Chris Paul. dude's a beast. best PG we've seen in the league since John Stockton...perhaps the one of the top 3 PG in the league EVER. he's just been a little under the radar this year because of his injuries.

Kobe's #3 in my opinion simply because the Lakers seem to play better without him. but his ability as a player is unquestionable.
Wade is #4 to me. haven't really unaccomplished much since Shaq left but his numbers has been off the charts.

They won the title last year with HIM and how do you know they are better without him when he's only missed 7 games over the last 2 years (Ridiculous statement)? The team is 5-2 without him with losses to Denver and Boston (playoff teams). Bad logic and anyone that knows bball knows that a team is better with it's best player. The Lakers had the best record in the league without Gasol, but I know that he is extremely important in terms of them competing for a ring. They aren't going to repeat without Pau.

RadiantShot
04-11-2010, 02:23 PM
i voted for Chris Paul. dude's a beast. best PG we've seen in the league since John Stockton...perhaps the one of the top 3 PG in the league EVER. he's just been a little under the radar this year because of his injuries.

Kobe's #3 in my opinion simply because the Lakers seem to play better without him. but his ability as a player is unquestionable.

Wade is #4 to me. haven't really unaccomplished much since Shaq left but his numbers has been off the charts.

Please, just stop.
:facepalm:

Sadds The Gr8
04-11-2010, 02:27 PM
1&2 are easy. 3-5 is where these threads are gonna turn into an intense homer fest, with players like Wade,Dirk, D12, CP3, and people are gonna go crazy making statements about their teams star. Book it.

Reversed86Curse
04-11-2010, 02:31 PM
Well, if Lebron is considered the best because he won the last poll, then its Kobe by default

Hawkeye15
04-11-2010, 02:36 PM
Wade.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2010, 02:39 PM
i voted for Chris Paul. dude's a beast. best PG we've seen in the league since John Stockton...perhaps the one of the top 3 PG in the league EVER. he's just been a little under the radar this year because of his injuries.

Kobe's #3 in my opinion simply because the Lakers seem to play better without him. but his ability as a player is unquestionable.

Wade is #4 to me. haven't really unaccomplished much since Shaq left but his numbers has been off the charts.

Paul hasnt been healthy all year, although I do think he is the best PG since Stockton. He just needs playoff success for the doubters to agree.

The Lakers may play fine against the scrub teams that the Lakers choose to rest Kobe against, but to say they play better without him??????? Cmon dude, that is ********.

And Wade hasn't had a team around him in the least since Shaq left. In fact, he has the worst surroundings of any star in the league, easily. Maybe Paul, but I still think its Wade. With him, they win 45 games, without him, maybe 20, tops

Vinny642
04-11-2010, 02:40 PM
Kobe

Vinny642
04-11-2010, 02:41 PM
Please, just stop.
:facepalm:

Whoa whoa whoa, he can be. I think he'll be top 5 all time, we'll see though.

RadiantShot
04-11-2010, 02:47 PM
Wow. Just wow.

Magic? Stockton? Kidd? Nash? Thomas? Robertson?

It's possible, but those guys are all still above him.

Vinny642
04-11-2010, 02:49 PM
Wow. Just wow.

Magic? Stockton? Kidd? Nash? Thomas? Robertson?

It's possible, but those guys are all still above him.

CP isnt even 25 yet... lol, we got to see how he rebounds this year.

td0tsfinest
04-11-2010, 02:54 PM
Kobe. No doubt.

Sadds The Gr8
04-11-2010, 02:55 PM
Wow. Just wow.

Magic? Stockton? Kidd? Nash? Thomas? Robertson?

It's possible, but those guys are all still above him.

those guys are all retired or long time vets and CP3 isn't even close to 30 yet, of course they're above him...give him time

RadiantShot
04-11-2010, 02:57 PM
those guys are all retired or long time vets and CP3 isn't even close to 30 yet, of course they're above him...

Yeah, but someone else said that he's probably already a top 3 Point-Guard to ever play, and that's why I brought those other guys up.

jdricks
04-11-2010, 02:58 PM
Wade by a wide margin...2nd best statistically, 2nd best defensively (to Dwight), and 2nd best all around...

Avenged
04-11-2010, 03:02 PM
Wade by a wide margin...2nd best statistically, 2nd best defensively (to Dwight), and 2nd best all around...

No man, no.

xBLAMEITON24x
04-11-2010, 03:04 PM
Lebron James

Sadds The Gr8
04-11-2010, 03:06 PM
Yeah, but someone else said that he's probably already a top 3 Point-Guard to ever play, and that's why I brought those other guys up.

lol oh...obviously not now...

Sadds The Gr8
04-11-2010, 03:07 PM
wow wade is very close to Kobe in the poll

jackdawson
04-11-2010, 03:10 PM
Wade easily.

RadiantShot
04-11-2010, 03:14 PM
Okay, I voted for Kobe obviously, but there's more than one side to anyone's argument. Wade is obviously anchoring his team, and leading them to a record a bit above .500. He's excelled in every aspect of the game, and done big things for his team, but I think the thing that seperates him and Kobe is how they play. Kobe's clutch capabilities are still better than Wades, and Kobe can do things a little bit better than Wade. With that being said, it's also the same vice-versa, and it can be said that Wade does things better than Kobe. To me, I wouldn't have a problem with someone taking Wade over Kobe, or someone taking Kobe over Wade. It's really how you view these two players.

avrpatsfan
04-11-2010, 03:27 PM
Bryant.

TmacBryant
04-11-2010, 03:29 PM
im guessing all the lebron fans are voting for d wade lol...


kobe is definitely better than d wade.

d wade may be able to drive, but cant shoot nearly as well as kobe, and i would take kobe's defense over d wade any day.

td0tsfinest
04-11-2010, 03:30 PM
^ I voted for Kobe even though I like Lebron more.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-11-2010, 03:57 PM
Let's put some stats out there:

Last 3 years:
PER (09-10, 08-09, 07-08)
Wade 28.03, 30.46, 21.71
Kobe 22.17, 24.46, 24.09

Wade has outperformed Kobe in the last 2 years, Kobe outperformed Wade in 07-08 but its important to note that Wade played 51 games in 07-08 and was mostly injured for that year. The 06-07 season, Wade beat out Kobe in PER, though this is looking a long way back which is why I won't include it.

TS% (09-10, 08-09, 07-08)
Wade 56.1, 57.4, 54.9
Kobe 54.7, 56.1, 57.6

Wade has again outperformed Kobe in the last 2 years.

Ast %
Wade 19.7, 20.0, 20.6
Kobe 15.3, 15.5, 16.2

This category is not even close. Wade blows the pants off Kobe. The fact that the ball is in Wade's hands more doesn't matter because this is a %. To be specific, the % of a player's possessions that ends in an assist. In any case, I don't think there's a person on this planet that would argue that Kobe's a better passer than Wade (well maybe except Laker fans).

TO%
Wade 9.8, 9.3, 13.0
Kobe 9.8, 8.2, 9.5

Kobe's got Wade beat in this category. He generally is better with his ballhandling. Although this year, they've been even in this category. Still, the edge goes to Kobe.

REBR
Wade 7.8, 7.8, 6.6
Kobe 7.7, 8.2, 9.0

Kobe seems to have been the better rebounder the last 3 years even if we don't include Wade's injury plagued year. However, neither of these guys is especially great. If we were to rank them compared to other SG, Wade's ranks over the last 3 years (T12, T19, T39) and Kobe's (16, T14, 9)- Kobe's produced the only top 10 season. If we look at the 06-07 season, Wade's RBR: 7.3, 24th among SG and Kobe's RBR: 8.2, tied for 17th among SG. I think its safe to say this stat isn't very important when we're comparing these guys. Neither of them does this at a very good rate. They're both not even top 10 among SG.

Stl%
Wade 2.8, 3.0, 2.4
Kobe 2.1, 2.1, 2.4

Blk%
Wade 2.4, 2.8, 1.5
Kobe 0.5, 1.0, 0.9

Not the best 2 categories to use for defense but Wade does have an advantage in both. But again, these 2 categories are somewhat meaningless if we're trying to define defense because steals and blocks don't make you a good defensive player.

Basketball reference has an offensive rating and defensive rating. I'll post those too.

ORtg (09-10, 08-09, 07-08)
Wade 113, 115, 103
Kobe 109, 115, 115

Pretty even, although Wade's been slightly better in the last 2 years.

DRtg
Wade 102, 105, 110
Kobe 104, 106, 105

Again, pretty even. Wade's got the edge in the last 2 years, barely though. Don't know how good of a measure of defense this actually is though. Hollinger had an article the other day indicating Wade was the best defensive 2 guard in the NBA. Unfortunately, I'm not an insider, so I couldn't see the article. So according to basketball reference and Hollinger, Wade has been the better player defensively the last 2 years.

Now intangibles, Kobe's had the much better playoff success over the last 3 years, there's no doubting that but let's also remember Kobe's got the better team around him. The Lakers team minus Kobe is STILL a playoff team- they have the talent. The Heat without Wade are probably a 15 win team, which is pretty much what they were a couple years ago when Wade missed a lot of the season. So if we're going to compare playoff success, it's a little unfair to Wade right now because Kobe definitely has the better team. Now this would be important if Wade had never done anything in the playoffs but he does have a championship and a finals MVP too.

All in all, it's tough to compare these guys, they're in completely different situations right now. One has the talent around him to win it all, the other has barely any talent around him. But if we're looking at their stats, Wade has Kobe beat. (Although, they're pretty close in some stats.) And Wade has the championship to prove he can get it done in the playoffs. So I will take Wade. Are we going to fault him for the fact that he hasn't been surrounded by the talent that Kobe has?

Now I know Laker fans are going to jump down my throat for this, and I'm sure I'll get responses like "You're an idiot, Kobe is GOD, I jack off to him" but please let's try to all remain objective (I know thats what I tried to do with this post) and not start going crazy because someone said Kobe isn't the 2nd best player. I know that'll be hard for most Laker fans since a majority of them probably do jack off to Kobe.

Edit: I just realized that its better to have a lower Defensive rating. So Kobe is actually worse than Wade in the last 2 years.

RadiantShot
04-11-2010, 04:05 PM
^
Stats don't tell the full story. I'll still take Kobe any day of the week if I want a proven winner. ;)

Avenged
04-11-2010, 04:06 PM
Let's put some stats out there:

Last 3 years:
PER (09-10, 08-09, 07-08)
Wade 28.03, 30.46, 21.71
Kobe 22.17, 24.46, 24.09

Wade has outperformed Kobe in the last 2 years, Kobe outperformed Wade in 07-08 but its important to note that Wade played 51 games in 07-08 and was mostly injured for that year. The 06-07 season, Wade beat out Kobe in PER, though this is looking a long way back which is why I won't include it.

TS% (09-10, 08-09, 07-08)
Wade 56.1, 57.4, 54.9
Kobe 54.7, 56.1, 57.6

Wade has again outperformed Kobe in the last 2 years.

Ast %
Wade 19.7, 20.0, 20.6
Kobe 15.3, 15.5, 16.2

This category is not even close. Wade blows the pants off Kobe. The fact that the ball is in Wade's hands more doesn't matter because this is a %. To be specific, the % of a player's possessions that ends in an assist. In any case, I don't think there's a person on this planet that would argue that Kobe's a better passer than Wade (well maybe except Laker fans).

TO%
Wade 9.8, 9.3, 13.0
Kobe 9.8, 8.2, 9.5

Kobe's got Wade beat in this category. He generally is better with his ballhandling. Although this year, they've been even in this category. Still, the edge goes to Kobe.

REBR
Wade 7.8, 7.8, 6.6
Kobe 7.7, 8.2, 9.0

Kobe seems to have been the better rebounder the last 3 years even if we don't include Wade's injury plagued year. However, neither of these guys is especially great. If we were to rank them compared to other SG, Wade's ranks over the last 3 years (T12, T19, T39) and Kobe's (16, T14, 9)- Kobe's produced the only top 10 season. If we look at the 06-07 season, Wade's RBR: 7.3, 24th among SG and Kobe's RBR: 8.2, tied for 17th among SG. I think its safe to say this stat isn't very important when we're comparing these guys. Neither of them does this at a very good rate. They're both not even top 10 among SG.

Stl%
Wade 2.8, 3.0, 2.4
Kobe 2.1, 2.1, 2.4

Blk%
Wade 2.4, 2.8, 1.5
Kobe 0.5, 1.0, 0.9

Not the best 2 categories to use for defense but Wade does have an advantage in both. But again, these 2 categories are somewhat meaningless if we're trying to define defense because steals and blocks don't make you a good defensive player.

Basketball reference has an offensive rating and defensive rating. I'll post those too.

ORtg (09-10, 08-09, 07-08)
Wade 113, 115, 103
Kobe 109, 115, 115

Pretty even, although Wade's been slightly better in the last 2 years.

DRtg
Wade 102, 105, 110
Kobe 104, 106, 105

Again, pretty even. Kobe's got the edge in the last 2 years, barely though. Don't know how good of a measure of defense this actually is though. Hollinger had an article the other day indicating Wade was the best defensive 2 guard in the NBA. Unfortunately, I'm not an insider, so I couldn't see the article. If you ask me, I think they're pretty even defensively.

Now intangibles, Kobe's had the much better playoff success over the last 3 years, there's no doubting that but let's also remember Kobe's got the better team around him. The Lakers team minus Kobe is STILL a playoff team- they have the talent. The Heat without Wade are probably a 15 win team, which is pretty much what they were a couple years ago when Wade missed a lot of the season. So if we're going to compare playoff success, it's a little unfair to Wade right now because Kobe definitely has the better team. Now this would be important if Wade had never done anything in the playoffs but he does have a championship and a finals MVP too.

All in all, it's tough to compare these guys, they're in completely different situations right now. One has the talent around him to win it all, the other has barely any talent around him. But if we're looking at their stats, Wade has Kobe beat. (Although, they're pretty close in some stats.) And Wade has the championship to prove he can get it done in the playoffs. So I will take Wade. Are we going to fault him for the fact that he hasn't been surrounded by the talent that Kobe has?

Now I know Laker fans are going to jump down my throat for this, and I'm sure I'll get responses like "You're an idiot, Kobe is GOD, I jack off to him" but please let's try to all remain objective (I know thats what I tried to do with this post) and not start going crazy because someone said Kobe isn't the 2nd best player. I know that'll be hard for most Laker fans since a majority of them probably do jack off to Kobe.

Funny considering people who have voted for Kobe include Magic, raptors, hornets and boston fans. Singling a single fan base for voting for Kobe is just silly.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-11-2010, 04:09 PM
^
Stats don't tell the full story. I'll still take Kobe any day of the week if I want a proven winner. ;)

This is the one category where Kobe's got an advantage which is why its a close call between the 2 but it's not like Wade doesn't have a ring. If Wade was ringless, then yes I'd give the edge to Kobe but he isn't. He's got it done in the playoffs when he had talent around him.

And again, we're talking right now, not career. Career wise, Kobe's had the better career, and it'd be tough to argue that.

But put it this way, if Kobe and Wade were to switch places, how would the respective teams be doing. The Lakers might have a similar win total but I think the Heat would lose some wins because Wade is asked to do so much more for the Heat than Kobe is for the Lakers. Can Kobe make the players around him better the way Wade does? I think the fact that Wade is a much more willing (and better) passer is the reason he does more for the Heat than Kobe could.

Also, stats do tend to remove the bias that people may have. If you like Kobe better, you'll say he's the best player. A stat on the other hand, will not have any personal bias, it will simply tell you what is. Obviously, you do have to use relevant stats because a person can probably come up with a stat that shows that Critterton is better than Lebron, but likewise, a person could have a personal bias against Lebron and say that Critterton is better than Lebron in any case.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-11-2010, 04:12 PM
Funny considering people who have voted for Kobe include Magic, raptors, hornets and boston fans. Singling a single fan base for voting for Kobe is just silly.

I wasn't singling out the Lakers fan base for voting for Kobe, I was singling them out for how sensitive they are. I guarantee one Laker fan comes on here and calls me an idiot for saying that Wade is the better player. A lot of Laker fans don't even want to admit it's close.

I'm not saying you're one of them but I bet you there will be one. I tried to give a good objective analysis of the two players.

I will say this though, if there's one guy I want taking the last shot in the game, it's Kobe. He is a better pure shooter (3 PT and FT) than Wade.

Bruno
04-11-2010, 04:49 PM
Who did PSD vote as the #1 player at the end of the summer, or start of the season-whenever this last was polled? Anyone have the link for that?

footballer2369
04-11-2010, 05:05 PM
BTW^ lower d rating= better d rating... Wade has a substancially better d rating in addition to the steals and blocks...

blah-blah
04-11-2010, 05:17 PM
kobe

Toenail Clipper
04-11-2010, 05:20 PM
Matt Barnes

Hawkeye15
04-11-2010, 05:21 PM
^
Stats don't tell the full story. I'll still take Kobe any day of the week if I want a proven winner. ;)

I am sure Wade would love to take the rosters Kobe has had around him....

Stats tell what you need to know when two players are too hard to figure out who is better while watching. Using supporting cast is ridiculous.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2010, 05:23 PM
Wow. Just wow.

Magic? Stockton? Kidd? Nash? Thomas? Robertson?

It's possible, but those guys are all still above him.


Besides Thomas, what has any of them done? They all had major help, and have done nothing.
Magic? Of course he is arguably the best, Stockton with him. Paul is the best since, and his numbers and dominance prove it. Cant help horrible management

Hawkeye15
04-11-2010, 05:27 PM
im guessing all the lebron fans are voting for d wade lol...


kobe is definitely better than d wade.

d wade may be able to drive, but cant shoot nearly as well as kobe, and i would take kobe's defense over d wade any day.

go look at the numbers dude. Wade's ts% is higher, his efg% is higher, his steal and block % are higher, and his defensive rating and win shares are higher.
And it has nothing to do with LeBron dude. Who cares? He is clearly #1, the argument was for #2. Why is it that many Laker fans feel its them and Kobe against the world?? You can be a neutral fan of all players you know. And believe it or not, you can look at players subjectively, whether you like them or not

Hawkeye15
04-11-2010, 05:28 PM
Who did PSD vote as the #1 player at the end of the summer, or start of the season-whenever this last was polled? Anyone have the link for that?

I think it was LeBron by the smallest margin, but I am pulling this off the top of my head.

Reversed86Curse
04-11-2010, 05:29 PM
Besides Thomas, what has any of them done? They all had major help, and have done nothing.
Magic? Of course he is arguably the best, Stockton with him. Paul is the best since, and his numbers and dominance prove it. Cant help horrible management

I'd take a 25 year old Kidd, Nash or Robertson over Paul as my true PG any day. Some day he may be Top whatever, but now, he's clearly behind all of those, and more.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2010, 05:37 PM
I'd take a 25 year old Kidd, Nash or Robertson over Paul as my true PG any day. Some day he may be Top whatever, but now, he's clearly behind all of those, and more.

I could maybe see Robertson. The other two, even in their peak seasons, were nowhere in the realm of the efficiency of Chris Paul. Not even close. Again, you are thinking wins/losses. Paul is individually better than Nash and Kidd have ever been, he has just been surrounded by crap. Hell, the single year he did have help, he turned David freaking West into and all star, and led his team to 56 wins, and that wasn't even a good roster.
Most of PSD really doesn't understand what they are seeing with Chris Paul.

RadiantShot
04-11-2010, 05:46 PM
I could maybe see Robertson. The other two, even in their peak seasons, were nowhere in the realm of the efficiency of Chris Paul. Not even close. Again, you are thinking wins/losses. Paul is individually better than Nash and Kidd have ever been, he has just been surrounded by crap. Hell, the single year he did have help, he turned David freaking West into and all star, and led his team to 56 wins, and that wasn't even a good roster.
Most of PSD really doesn't understand what they are seeing with Chris Paul.

Have you even watched Kidd or Nash?

:facepalm:

RadiantShot
04-11-2010, 05:46 PM
Matt Barnes

:up::worthy:

J_M_B
04-11-2010, 06:03 PM
Throw Dirk in there since you have Durant and Wade in there.

Kevin Durant and Dwyane Wade are both better players than Dirk Nowitzki.

Dirk is probably the 7th or 8th best player in the league. I'll rate LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, Carmelo, and Howard ahead of him.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-11-2010, 06:13 PM
BTW^ lower d rating= better d rating... Wade has a substancially better d rating in addition to the steals and blocks...

Yeah, thanks, just realized that. Wade's better defensively the last 2 years, don't know that I'd say substantially, although I guess once you include the steals and blocks, I could see how you may say that.

For some reason, I just missed that, I think I was thinking offense while typing out those defensive numbers. Thanks again.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2010, 06:22 PM
Have you even watched Kidd or Nash?

:facepalm:

Have you watched Paul?? He pushes LeBron when healthy for best PER, and his worst year of a PER of 22 is a dream season for both Kidd and Nash. Nash can't defend, Kidd can't shoot. Paul does everything well.
Now, if you would like to continue to base you're opinion off of supporting cast and longevity, than by all means, keep attempting to take shots at me. The evidence is right in front of you, stating Paul is better than both have ever been. Deal with it

PatsSoxKnicks
04-11-2010, 06:29 PM
CP3's career low in PER is 22.0. Kidd's career high in PER is 22.5. Nash's career high in PER is 23.8. This year CP3's PER (23.8) is as high as Nash's career high and CP3 has had an injury plagued season. And in the last 2 years (28.3, 30.0), Paul's PER easily beats Nash's career high.

And neither Nash or Kidd has ever won a championship, so that argument goes out the window. Only thing against CP3 is that he hasn't been in the league long enough. But his best statistical seasons are better than Nash and Kidd.

JNA17
04-11-2010, 06:29 PM
Kidd can't shoot.

I agreed with some of your points except for this one. :facepalm: Especially this year. This alone pretty much proves you hardly watch ****

goose15
04-11-2010, 06:36 PM
Kobe

Hawkeye15
04-11-2010, 06:38 PM
I agreed with some of your points except for this one. :facepalm: Especially this year. This alone pretty much proves you hardly watch ****

with his diminished scoring need, of course his percentages are up this season. It doesn' take away from the fact that he has been a very poor shooter over his previous 1000 games before coming to the Mavs. And regardless, Paul is a superior shooter long term, even in his shorter career, and you can't deny that.
Besides, Kidd is far past his peak years. So as his last 2 years have shown a shooting improvement, they have also seen a substantial drop in rebounding and passing, of which is what made Kidd an elite PG to begin with

R_O_W_E
04-11-2010, 06:39 PM
CP3's career low in PER is 22.0. Kidd's career high in PER is 22.5. Nash's career high in PER is 23.8. This year CP3's PER (23.8) is as high as Nash's career high and CP3 has had an injury plagued season. And in the last 2 years (28.3, 30.0), Paul's PER easily beats Nash's career high.
PER is for nerds. Real basketball fans don't care about a stupid statistical system created by a nerd to gauge a player's value. Most people can tell how valuable a player is to their team if they watch games.



And neither Nash or Kidd has ever won a championship, so that argument goes out the window. Only thing against CP3 is that he hasn't been in the league long enough. But his best statistical seasons are better than Nash and Kidd.

Kidd led the Nets to 2 NBA Finals, and is 2nd in NBA History in Triple Doubles behind only Magic Johnson.

Steve Nash won 2 NBA MVP's, name me every player who has won more than 1 NBA MVP.

CP3 will be great, but unfortunately hes playing in the era of Kobe & LeBron and the only way for him to be considered amongst the greatest PG's of All-Time is if he can rise above them. The current Hornets team right now isn't helping him though. Every great PG had a great team around them or were in a great system for them to excel, does Jeff Bower even coach?

PatsSoxKnicks
04-11-2010, 06:42 PM
It's a shame Kobe is winning this running away. Too many people eat what the media feeds them and don't bother to think for themselves. What's unfortunate is that a lot of people have just stated Kobe without giving any reasons. I suppose those reasons are "he has 4 championships" and nothing else seems to matter. Oh well.

Raph12
04-11-2010, 06:42 PM
LMFAO at Dirk getting 3 votes

RadiantShot
04-11-2010, 06:44 PM
^
lawl.

JNA17
04-11-2010, 06:46 PM
It's a shame Kobe is winning this running away. Too many people eat what the media feeds them and don't bother to think for themselves. What's unfortunate is that a lot of people have just stated Kobe without giving any reasons. I suppose those reasons are "he has 4 championships" and nothing else seems to matter. Oh well.

sounds like the #1 player thread.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-11-2010, 06:53 PM
PER is for nerds. Real basketball fans don't care about a stupid statistical system created by a nerd to gauge a player's value. Most people can tell how valuable a player is to their team if they watch games.

I'm a real basketball fan and I watch every game. I watched the Warriors play the Cavs and I came to the conclusion that Reggie Williams is a better player than Lebron James. The stats are garbage, they say nothing, my eyes show me that Reggie Williams is 10 times better than Lebron!!!!



Kidd led the Nets to 2 NBA Finals, and is 2nd in NBA History in Triple Doubles behind only Magic Johnson.

Steve Nash won 2 NBA MVP's, name me every player who has won more than 1 NBA MVP.

CP3 will be great, but unfortunately hes playing in the era of Kobe & LeBron and the only way for him to be considered amongst the greatest PG's of All-Time is if he can rise above them. The current Hornets team right now isn't helping him though. Every great PG had a great team around them or were in a great system for them to excel, does Jeff Bower even coach?

Robert Horry has 7 NBA titles, he is the greatest player to ever play the game. Steve Nash has more NBA MVPs than Kobe, so Nash is better. Leon Powe's team beat Kobe in the finals, so Leon Powe is better than Kobe. Since Horry has 7 NBA titles, he's better than Garnett, who only has 1.

I can go on and on with these ridiculous comments if you'd like.

BTW, triple doubles do get included in your PER since they are actually a part of your stats.

Oh btw, when you flip a coin, heads will come up 100% of the time.....

Avenged
04-11-2010, 06:54 PM
It's a shame Kobe is winning this running away. Too many people eat what the media feeds them and don't bother to think for themselves. What's unfortunate is that a lot of people have just stated Kobe without giving any reasons. I suppose those reasons are "he has 4 championships" and nothing else seems to matter. Oh well.

You seem very disappointed, who cares! it's PSD.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-11-2010, 06:55 PM
Ahhh screw this, since no one wants to use stats, I'm just going to start claiming that Javaris Critterton is the best player in the NBA. Unless anyone can name a better player?

PatsSoxKnicks
04-11-2010, 07:01 PM
You seem very disappointed, who cares! it's PSD.

lol true, I just thought it might be a little closer. And its not like Wade has done nothing in the playoffs. A lot of people seem to have forgotten the fact that he's actually won a title.

R_O_W_E
04-11-2010, 07:04 PM
I'm a real basketball fan and I watch every game. I watched the Warriors play the Cavs and I came to the conclusion that Reggie Williams is a better player than Lebron James. The stats are garbage, they say nothing, my eyes show me that Reggie Williams is 10 times better than Lebron!!!!
Geez, I never said Williams was better than LeBron.:rolleyes:




Robert Horry has 7 NBA titles, he is the greatest player to ever play the game. Steve Nash has more NBA MVPs than Kobe, so Nash is better. Leon Powe's team beat Kobe in the finals, so Leon Powe is better than Kobe. Since Horry has 7 NBA titles, he's better than Garnett, who only has 1.

I can go on and on with these ridiculous comments if you'd like.
They're ridiculous and irrelevant to the point I made. The greatest PG's in NBA History are ranked as highly because of their talent as well as their accomplishments, Paul still has to fill up the trophy case or put his name in the Top 3 of any statistical category.

Magic
Stockton
Zeke
The Big O
Nash
Payton
Kidd

Paul still has to make his mark in the NBA, all of those guys listed above are known for something, Paul is still arguably the best PG in the NBA but Paul and D-Will each have to make their lasting mark.

Purple when mixed with Orange creates Porage, as in what was in the bowl's of the 3 little bears before it was eaten by a bastard child.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2010, 07:16 PM
^Paul will individually surpass Stockton, Kidd, Nash, or almost anyone else you come up with. He is not even 25. To think he won't be a factor in many playoffs is ridiculous. He will eventually get the cast around him, and when he does, the accomplishment argument dies, and the true evaluation of the players will emerge. Paul is individually better in his 2 healthy seasons previous to this one, than any PG we have seen since Stockton's prime, and even then, I am ONLY giving JS the credit due to his team being elite

And PER isn't perfect, but its a great evaluation of overall effect and efficiency for many things, and there are plenty of other advanced stats that all point to Paul being the best PG to come along since Magic.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-11-2010, 07:17 PM
Geez, I never said Williams was better than LeBron.:rolleyes:

Why not? They both don't have any titles. I watched a game earlier this year and it looked like Williams was better? So why am I not right?

Oh and since I don't like Rondo, I'm going to say that Critterton is better than Rondo. When I watched them play, I swear to god, Critterton looked like the better player. There's no arguing it.



They're ridiculous and irrelevant to the point I made. The greatest PG's in NBA History are ranked as highly because of their talent as well as their accomplishments, Paul still has to fill up the trophy case or put his name in the Top 3 of any statistical category.

Magic
Stockton
Zeke
The Big O
Nash
Payton
Kidd

Paul still has to make his mark in the NBA, all of those guys listed above are known for something, Paul is still arguably the best PG in the NBA but Paul and D-Will each have to make their lasting mark.

Purple when mixed with Orange creates Porage, as in what was in the bowl's of the 3 little bears before it was eaten by a bastard child.

Look, I don't know that I'd say Paul is better than Kidd and Nash because Paul has not been in the league long enough. But his best seasons ARE better than Nash and Kidd's best seasons.

So the people who vote for MVPs know everything? Nash has more NBA MVPs than Kobe? That means Nash is a better player correct?

Horry has more NBA championships than just about everyone, so that means he's the best player correct?

Do you see where filling up the trophy case can be misleading?

BTW, you should go to Vegas and put 1000$ on the Bobcats to win the NBA Championship. The probabilities might suggest otherwise, but like you said stats are just for nerds, so go put 1000 on the Bobcats. They'll win because I watched every game of theirs this year and they clearly look like the best team in the NBA.

Storch
04-11-2010, 07:20 PM
i voted for lebron as #1, now i say kobe is #2.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-11-2010, 07:22 PM
^Paul will individually surpass Stockton, Kidd, Nash, or almost anyone else you come up with. He is not even 25. To think he won't be a factor in many playoffs is ridiculous. He will eventually get the cast around him, and when he does, the accomplishment argument dies, and the true evaluation of the players will emerge. Paul is individually better in his 2 healthy seasons previous to this one, than any PG we have seen since Stockton's prime, and even then, I am ONLY giving JS the credit due to his team being elite

And PER isn't perfect, but its a great evaluation of overall effect and efficiency for many things, and there are plenty of other advanced stats that all point to Paul being the best PG to come along since Magic.

To be fair to him, if Paul has a career ending injury, then he's not going to pass those guys. And you simply can't predict future injuries. But I think the thing to say is if he continues at his current pace, then he will pass those guys.

Avenged
04-11-2010, 07:27 PM
^Paul will individually surpass Stockton, Kidd, Nash, or almost anyone else you come up with. He is not even 25. To think he won't be a factor in many playoffs is ridiculous. He will eventually get the cast around him, and when he does, the accomplishment argument dies, and the true evaluation of the players will emerge. Paul is individually better in his 2 healthy seasons previous to this one, than any PG we have seen since Stockton's prime, and even then, I am ONLY giving JS the credit due to his team being elite

And PER isn't perfect, but its a great evaluation of overall effect and efficiency for many things, and there are plenty of other advanced stats that all point to Paul being the best PG to come along since Magic.

Come on man, remember our speculation talk in the other thread?
:p

Hawkeye15
04-11-2010, 07:29 PM
Come on man, remember our speculation talk in the other thread?
:p

I don't think there is a ton of speculation that you can keep a player of Paul's caliber out of the playoffs for good. I am not speculating on history, I am stating the most likely scenario for the future

Hawkeye15
04-11-2010, 07:30 PM
To be fair to him, if Paul has a career ending injury, then he's not going to pass those guys. And you simply can't predict future injuries. But I think the thing to say is if he continues at his current pace, then he will pass those guys.

this is indeed fair.

Reversed86Curse
04-11-2010, 08:57 PM
PER is for nerds. Real basketball fans don't care about a stupid statistical system created by a nerd to gauge a player's value. Most people can tell how valuable a player is to their team if they watch games.



Kidd led the Nets to 2 NBA Finals, and is 2nd in NBA History in Triple Doubles behind only Magic Johnson.

Steve Nash won 2 NBA MVP's, name me every player who has won more than 1 NBA MVP.

CP3 will be great, but unfortunately hes playing in the era of Kobe & LeBron and the only way for him to be considered amongst the greatest PG's of All-Time is if he can rise above them. The current Hornets team right now isn't helping him though. Every great PG had a great team around them or were in a great system for them to excel, does Jeff Bower even coach?

All three points are good and valid. You can't compare a 25 year old pg with 5yrs experience with two 12-plus year vets- yes, Paul is better than both NOW, and may have a better career than both when he's DONE, but both Kidd and Nash have accomplishments that CP doesn't (but very well may some day).

IversonIsKrazy
04-11-2010, 09:01 PM
I won't be voting too often, this thread just doesn't seem right w/o it being created by MileHighCamp lol. But Kobe, LeBron.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2010, 09:03 PM
All three points are good and valid. You can't compare a 25 year old pg with 5yrs experience with two 12-plus year vets- yes, Paul is better than both NOW, and may have a better career than both when he's DONE, but both Kidd and Nash have accomplishments that CP doesn't (but very well may some day).

while this is fair, it again goes back to how you compare players. Were they elite during their best years, or are you looking at a body of work, and team success...
The answer dictates who you would take.

still1ballin
04-11-2010, 09:06 PM
Its just a PSD vote thread. People shouldn't take this seriously. In the beginning of the season people voted for the Raptors making it to the ECF.

RadiantShot
04-11-2010, 09:08 PM
^
lmao..

shep33
04-11-2010, 09:11 PM
Dj Mbenga

this

FOBolous
04-11-2010, 09:15 PM
To be fair to him, if Paul has a career ending injury, then he's not going to pass those guys. And you simply can't predict future injuries. But I think the thing to say is if he continues at his current pace, then he will pass those guys.

of course....cause than he wouldn' have the longetivity of those guys. but the seasons Paul has had is better than any one season both Nash and Kidd ever had. Paul was also one of the top contender for the MVP award during his 3rd season in the NBA...i think the vote came down to him and kobe...can Nash and Kidd boast that?

R_O_W_E
04-11-2010, 09:33 PM
of course....cause than he wouldn' have the longetivity of those guys. but the seasons Paul has had is better than any one season both Nash and Kidd ever had. Paul was also one of the top contender for the MVP award during his 3rd season in the NBA...i think the vote came down to him and kobe...can Nash and Kidd boast that?

Doesn't matter.

Nash has 2 MVP's he won in the Era of Kobe/LeBron/Wade. When Paul wins a MVP and is acknowledged as the best individual player of atleast 1 regular season, then we can talk.

Is Chris Paul a superior talent than Steve Nash? Yes. I'd probably take Chris Paul over every PG in NBA History other than Magic or Maravich, thats how good he is as a player. However, CP3 has to have the accomplishments. Its too early to assume if he will ever do so, and its too early to assume he wont do so. Its also too early to assume how long his prime will be, Zeke retired at l32 and so did Magic. Its just simply rare for a PG to be in their prime for 10-15 years, and its hard to gauge whether or not he'll have the talent around him for an extended period of time to continue to average the numbers hes put up.

Maybe I'll tell you his career stats, I'll pick the Hornets in the Association mode in NBA 2K10 and simulate the next 15 seasons to see how he finishes his career.

R_O_W_E
04-11-2010, 09:35 PM
while this is fair, it again goes back to how you compare players. Were they elite during their best years, or are you looking at a body of work, and team success...
The answer dictates who you would take.

What it comes down to during their career is talent level, but in the long term it comes down to their body of work + team success. Usually team success and their body of work go hand in hand.

R_O_W_E
04-11-2010, 09:36 PM
Why not? They both don't have any titles. I watched a game earlier this year and it looked like Williams was better? So why am I not right?

Oh and since I don't like Rondo, I'm going to say that Critterton is better than Rondo. When I watched them play, I swear to god, Critterton looked like the better player. There's no arguing it.



Look, I don't know that I'd say Paul is better than Kidd and Nash because Paul has not been in the league long enough. But his best seasons ARE better than Nash and Kidd's best seasons.

So the people who vote for MVPs know everything? Nash has more NBA MVPs than Kobe? That means Nash is a better player correct?

Horry has more NBA championships than just about everyone, so that means he's the best player correct?

Do you see where filling up the trophy case can be misleading?

BTW, you should go to Vegas and put 1000$ on the Bobcats to win the NBA Championship. The probabilities might suggest otherwise, but like you said stats are just for nerds, so go put 1000 on the Bobcats. They'll win because I watched every game of theirs this year and they clearly look like the best team in the NBA.

Its something stuck up your ***. You're posts aren't coming out clear, you're clearly distressed.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2010, 09:56 PM
What it comes down to during their career is talent level, but in the long term it comes down to their body of work + team success. Usually team success and their body of work go hand in hand.

for sure. And I would guess Paul, if he comes back 100% with no lingering effect, will not be held out of the playoffs in his future. Obviously Paul has a long way to go to get the career ranking of Stockton, Kidd, or Nash, but he has already passed all three of them with individual seasons. Pauls best 2 seasons were better than any of those three had. And team accomplishments have nothing to do with my evaluation

FOBolous
04-11-2010, 09:58 PM
Is Chris Paul a superior talent than Steve Nash? Yes. I'd probably take Chris Paul over every PG in NBA History other than Magic or Maravich, thats how good he is as a player.

good. i'm glad we agree :)

J-Relo
04-12-2010, 09:39 AM
To be Honest if anyone picks any player other than Kobe, DWade, Dwight, or Durant....they are wrong. period.

MOnta?

todu82
04-12-2010, 10:18 AM
Kobe Bryant

alencp3
04-12-2010, 10:30 AM
Give me Wade

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2010, 11:32 AM
of course....cause than he wouldn' have the longetivity of those guys. but the seasons Paul has had is better than any one season both Nash and Kidd ever had. Paul was also one of the top contender for the MVP award during his 3rd season in the NBA...i think the vote came down to him and kobe...can Nash and Kidd boast that?

Yeah I agree, Paul's best seasons are better than Nash and Kidd's but he doesn't have the longevity yet to compare to those guys which is why I said if he keeps up his current pace, he will be better than both of them.

If we're looking at best seasons though, Paul's are better.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2010, 11:40 AM
Its something stuck up your ***. You're posts aren't coming out clear, you're clearly distressed.

I'll tone down the sarcasm then since you obviously didn't get the point of my posts- which should have been obvious. The sarcasm was in response to your claim that stats are useless.

If you want to judge people on opinion based awards like MVPs and All-NBA teams, go ahead but that doesn't mean those guys (with the awards) are actually better than others because the majority says so.

Like I said, Steve Nash has 2 NBA MVPs, does that mean he's better than Kobe because he's got more NBA MVPs? Here's another angle- did he deserve those MVPs? How do you tell? Stats take the opinion out and leave you with facts. You can't dispute a stat. (Although you can dispute the relevance of a stat, PER is pretty relevant though, certainly better than just looking at points per game) You can dispute whether someone should have won an MVP or not. Do you understand where I'm going?

No offense, but just because you don't have the brain power to understand a stat, it doesn't mean you should automatically dismiss it. BTW, there are teams who employ statisticians (i.e. Nuggets, Rockets). Darryl Morey is the Rockets GM and he does a lot of statistical based analysis.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2010, 11:51 AM
MOnta?

Monta's a chucker, don't know that I'd want him on my team.

kArSoN RyDaH
04-12-2010, 12:11 PM
lebron james-2 kobe bryant-#1!!!!

JNA17
04-12-2010, 12:54 PM
lebron james-2 kobe bryant-#1!!!!

that's already common knowledge, but like someone else said, it's a PSD poll, it's the same people that had raptors at the ECF this year and bargs as the number #2 overall center.

alencp3
04-12-2010, 01:25 PM
that's already common knowledge, but like someone else said, it's a PSD poll, it's the same people that had raptors at the ECF this year and bargs as the number #2 overall center.

So ur saying Kobe is better than LeBron?:facepalm:
Check his stats :ohno:

R_O_W_E
04-12-2010, 01:30 PM
Close This Thread.

madiaz3
04-12-2010, 01:33 PM
So ur saying Kobe is better than LeBron?:facepalm:
Check his stats :ohno:

That's why Wilt is the consensus best player of all time.

JNA17
04-12-2010, 01:41 PM
So ur saying Kobe is better than LeBron?:facepalm:
Check his stats :ohno:

if that's the case, no one will ever be better then wilt. :rolleyes:

it's official, your ignorance is off the charts

JordansBulls
04-12-2010, 01:53 PM
That's why Wilt is the consensus best player of all time.

Wilt only has the best stats all time if you look at raw numbers. However if you look at his PER (his overall production) and now Win Shares per 48 minutes (how much he contributes to his team winning per game) you will see he is behind.

In fact, currently MJ is #1 in both PER and Win Shares per 48 minutes in both the season and playoffs all time.