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Chronz
04-08-2010, 02:08 PM
In other words, guys who take alot, but lack the efficiency to justify their shot selection. Which do you disagree on and why?

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Michael Beasley, Heat
Beasley still packs some amazing offensive potential, but the results just haven't been there this season. The shots are, however.

He averages 13.4 shots per game in only 29.8 minutes per game, but has a true shooting percentage of just 50.1 -- even with Dwyane Wade commanding most of the opponent's attention -- and assists on just 7.2 percent of his possessions, putting him in the bottom third of power forwards. Beasley has by far the highest usage rate (23.3) of any frontcourt player with a TS% under 51.

Andres Nocioni, Kings
Kris Humphries, Nets
Larry Hughes, Bobcats
Al Harrington, Knicks
Ersan Ilyasova, Bucks
Tyreke Evans, Kings
Evans plays point guard much of the time and thus has a decent assist ratio, but that masks his major weakness as a playmaker: He thinks sequentially. As in, "First, I'll look for my shot; only when I am cut off, I'll look to see what's going on around me." As a result he might be one of the most frustrating teammates in the league.

He's one of a handful of players with a TS% under 53 and a usage rate above 25, but the visual is what really puts him over the top -- the idea of involving people just for the sake of their participation in the offense seems completely foreign to him. Too many times he's passing only as a last resort.

Trevor Ariza, Rockets
Monta Ellis, Warriors
Rasheed Wallace, Celtics
Gilbert Arenas, Wizards
Al Jefferson, Timberwolves
T.J. Ford, Pacers
J.R. Smith, Nuggets
Jannero Pargo, Bulls

abe_froman
04-08-2010, 02:14 PM
oh here comes the fury(with naming of beasley,evans)

but its actually a pretty good list

Raph12
04-08-2010, 02:15 PM
Ooh Kings and Heat fans will be pissed lol.

iFYouSeekAmy
04-08-2010, 02:16 PM
Not surprised Ellis is in this.

Sadds The Gr8
04-08-2010, 02:28 PM
Good list...Just missing Bargnani. And I don't really know about Tyreke, but then again I dont watch the Kings that much.

Hawkeye15
04-08-2010, 02:30 PM
I agree with the majority of this list. I always stuck up for Jefferson, and I still think he is a great low block scorer, but that man is a complete black hole, and its time for him to go in order to make room for Love getting the minutes he should be.

ChiSox219
04-08-2010, 02:36 PM
Sometimes, while watching Jannero Pargo brick his 8th shot in five minutes, I load one in the six shooter, spin the cylinder and pull the trigger.

Giaps
04-08-2010, 02:40 PM
Hollinger always annoyed the **** out of me because of his annoying stat formulas.

DerekRE_3
04-08-2010, 02:41 PM
I'd look for my offense too if I were Tyreke...his teammates just don't make plays for him most of the time. Besides, he's only going to get better at seeing the floor with experience and time playing the point.

kingbrentg
04-08-2010, 02:50 PM
Is there a link to more?

Hawkeye15
04-08-2010, 02:58 PM
Hollinger always annoyed the **** out of me because of his annoying stat formulas.

but they are almost always accurate....
If you don't understand them, its not his fault.

fairandbalanced
04-08-2010, 03:05 PM
Ooh Kings and Heat fans will be pissed lol.

Pissed for what reason? The only time Miami actually leads in a game is when Beasley is benched.....look at the faces of his teammates when he touches the ball, they just disinterested. His presence alone is a minus for Miami. Whenener Beasley is in the game, they'll get frustrated, once he's benched, they go on a run...lol

29$JerZ
04-08-2010, 03:19 PM
I understand Beasly and the rest of the list.
Evans makes sense too but its not a bad thing here imo.

IRUAM #21
04-08-2010, 03:25 PM
Ooh Kings and Heat fans will be pissed lol.

Not really, I think every Heat fan knows that Beasley's a ballhog/Inefficient, if they deny it, they're just Beasley homers.

Draco
04-08-2010, 03:28 PM
Evans plays point guard much of the time and thus has a decent assist ratio, but that masks his major weakness as a playmaker: He thinks sequentially. As in, "First, I'll look for my shot; only when I am cut off, I'll look to see what's going on around me." As a result he might be one of the most frustrating teammates in the league.

I'm not even sure I'd accurately describe him as a playmaker. Probably best described as a drive and kick PG..

MagicDojo
04-08-2010, 03:29 PM
Not really, I think every Heat fan knows that Beasley's a ballhog/Inefficient, if they deny it, they're just Beasley homers.

It is good when they are going in and bad when they are not.

IRUAM #21
04-08-2010, 03:35 PM
It is good when they are going in and bad when they are not.

Yup, the thing is that when they're not going in, he keeps chucking instead of taking it to the rim :mad:

Public Enemy #1
04-08-2010, 03:48 PM
Where is Durant! Overrated shooter and he isn't on the list? Takes 30 shots a game, the only reason he gets 30 is because as Garnett would put it, the refs thought he was Michael ****ing Jordan lol

Chronz
04-08-2010, 05:18 PM
Yea Im not sure what to make of Rekes selection, I dont think hes that bad.



Not surprised Ellis is in this.
Whats that you say, you want to know why? JK

Monta Ellis, Warriors
The unquestioned captain of our all-gunner team, Ellis plays like the "2" on the shot clock isn't there and is seemingly oblivious to the fact most of his teammates are better shooters. If not all of them, actually ... Ellis actually has the worst TS% of any Warriors rotation payer, including the three D-League call-ups, yet is far and away the team leader in usage rate.

He has the highest usage rate of any guard with a negative pure point rating, and the seventh-highest of any player in the league ... yet Golden State has the league's 21st-best offense when he's on the court and the second-best when he's not.

alencp3
04-08-2010, 05:24 PM
Evans a ballhog? Hollinger should just kill himself . He isnt thread worthy u know...

Chronz
04-08-2010, 05:28 PM
I'm not even sure I'd accurately describe him as a playmaker. Probably best described as a drive and kick PG..

Id say thats fairly accurate, among players who generate as many assists as he does, he has the least amount of at the rim dishes, well him Tony Parker and Derrick Rose. Hes more of a decent distributor than an a great playmaker. Still he has value as a passer which is more than you could say than most of the guys on this list.


Evans a ballhog? Hollinger should just kill himself . He isnt thread worthy u know...
Ummm yea, his playing style has forced Bill Simmons into coining a new position, the zero guard. Guys who arent exactly pointguards but dominate the ball way too much to be pure SG's, a position mastered by Gilbert Arenas according to him.

I agree hes not that bad, but its not a kill himself type thing either.

ChiTownPacerFan
04-08-2010, 05:34 PM
How the hell does Granger not make this team. As usual, the Pacers get no recognition:)

D Roses Bulls
04-08-2010, 05:36 PM
ok for all you people that said evans was better then rose..... :facepalm:

rose>evans

JNA17
04-08-2010, 05:38 PM
but they are almost always wrong and stupid.

fixed

Chronz
04-08-2010, 05:40 PM
I agree with the majority of this list. I always stuck up for Jefferson, and I still think he is a great low block scorer, but that man is a complete black hole, and its time for him to go in order to make room for Love getting the minutes he should be.

I still dont see why hes picking on a guy who was basically injured half the year, has cut down on his shooting since last year and is looking to pass more. Hes just not very good at it yet, he should stop taking jumpshots though.


fixed
Good one ;)

SeoulBeatz
04-08-2010, 05:49 PM
Yea Im not sure what to make of Rekes selection, I dont think hes that bad.



Whats that you say, you want to know why? JK

Monta Ellis, Warriors
The unquestioned captain of our all-gunner team, Ellis plays like the "2" on the shot clock isn't there and is seemingly oblivious to the fact most of his teammates are better shooters. If not all of them, actually ... Ellis actually has the worst TS% of any Warriors rotation payer, including the three D-League call-ups, yet is far and away the team leader in usage rate.

He has the highest usage rate of any guard with a negative pure point rating, and the seventh-highest of any player in the league ... yet Golden State has the league's 21st-best offense when he's on the court and the second-best when he's not.

yeah, wow that guy just tore Ellis up.
I like Monta, but those facts are glaring.

PlezPlayDKnicks
04-08-2010, 06:08 PM
Good ole Al Harrington... Cant wait to see him gone..

PatsSoxKnicks
04-08-2010, 06:09 PM
Al Harrington being on this list is a big surprise.....lol.

A lot of these guys make sense, but I was surprised to see Evans on the list.

SteveNash
04-08-2010, 06:12 PM
Where is McGrady?

SwaggaIke
04-08-2010, 06:24 PM
When I saw this title the first person I thought of was Mike. He needs to attack the rack more, simple and plain.

GrandDaddyPurp
04-08-2010, 06:28 PM
ok for all you people that said evans was better then rose..... :facepalm:

rose>evans

Evans is still better than rose.

arkanian215
04-08-2010, 06:29 PM
In other words, guys who take alot, but lack the efficiency to justify their shot selection. Which do you disagree on and why?

------------------------------------------------------------

hump is a mj wannabe.

D Roses Bulls
04-08-2010, 06:33 PM
Evans is still better than rose.

:laugh: oh that was a good one........ i needed that laugh

IRUAM #21
04-08-2010, 06:34 PM
Evans is still better than rose.

x2

D Roses Bulls
04-08-2010, 06:35 PM
x2

-1

bigsams50
04-08-2010, 06:35 PM
ok for all you people that said evans was better then rose..... :facepalm:

rose>evans

Evans > Rose

D Roses Bulls
04-08-2010, 06:39 PM
Evans > Rose

you all seriously just do not like rose or you seriously have a lack of basketball knowledge. even the kings beat writer on ESPN even calls people crazy that say evans is better then rose and thats a guy who watches evans a hell of a lot more then you guys do.

bigsams50
04-08-2010, 06:39 PM
you all seriously just do not like rose or you seriously have a lack of basketball knowledge. even the kings beat writer on ESPN even calls people crazy that say evans is better then rose.

I like messing with Bulls fans that bring Rose into every thread for no reason.

D Roses Bulls
04-08-2010, 06:40 PM
I like messing with Bulls fans that bring Rose into every thread for no reason.

lol...... well i saw tyreke evans on this list and had to put my two cents in, lol

Draco
04-08-2010, 06:41 PM
Id say thats fairly accurate, among players who generate as many assists as he does, he has the least amount of at the rim dishes, well him Tony Parker and Derrick Rose. Hes more of a decent distributor than an a great playmaker. Still he has value as a passer which is more than you could say than most of the guys on this list.

Interesting read..
http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2010/03/18/nba-hd-dismantling-the-assist/

I'm guessing Rose has a better chance than Evans at becoming a playmaker; Rose is a willing passer and he doesn't have the length to be as a dominant a scorer as Evans.

IRUAM #21
04-08-2010, 06:41 PM
-1

x5

D Roses Bulls
04-08-2010, 06:42 PM
Interesting read..
http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2010/03/18/nba-hd-dismantling-the-assist/

I'm guessing Rose has a better chance than Evans at becoming a playmaker; Rose is a willing passer and he doesn't have the length to be as a dominant a scorer as Evans.

but he has the quickness and athletic ability to be a better scorer

bigsams50
04-08-2010, 06:42 PM
lol...... well i saw tyreke evans on this list and had to put my two cents in, lol

lol, i actually like Rose, but i hate how his name gets dragged into everything

sacgiants1213
04-08-2010, 06:42 PM
well im convinced. Steph Curry > Tyreke Evans.

D Roses Bulls
04-08-2010, 06:44 PM
lol, i actually like Rose, but i hate how his name gets dragged into everything

well thats cause theres a lot of bulls fans on this site. cant help that. when you turn on ESPN, you hear about lebron all the time, when you come to PSD you hear about rose, lol

Draco
04-08-2010, 06:44 PM
lol...... well i saw tyreke evans on this list and had to put my two cents in, lol

Evans is obviously the more productive player which is the only thing their stats are going to prove in comparing a first year player with a second year player.

bigsams50
04-08-2010, 06:45 PM
well thats cause theres a lot of bulls fans on this site. cant help that. when you turn on ESPN, you hear about lebron all the time, when you come to PSD you hear about rose, lol

Yea Bulls fans are everywhere on here lol. Trolls caused alotta Rose hate aswell.

D Roses Bulls
04-08-2010, 06:46 PM
x5

x5 for a guy who made the all chucking team and his stats are still below rose? brilliant analysis right there

Draco
04-08-2010, 06:47 PM
but he has the quickness and athletic ability to be a better scorer

I think Rose had a better jumper his rookie season but it's still better to be 6'6" than 6'3" when you're talking about two comparably effective players.

D Roses Bulls
04-08-2010, 06:48 PM
Evans is obviously the more productive player which is the only thing their stats are going to prove in comparing a first year player with a second year player.

but rose had salmons who was a scorer for the second half of roses rookie season along with deng, hinrich, oh and ben the ball hog gordon. who does evans have the ball to throw to? nocioni? and rose is still averaging more in points, and assists then evans. i bet roses rookie numbers would of been a hell of a lot better or his numbers right now if he got to shoot the ball as much as evans shoots the ball.

Chronz
04-08-2010, 06:52 PM
x5

so that equals -5? Thats what you were going for right?

D Roses Bulls
04-08-2010, 06:54 PM
I think Rose had a better jumper his rookie season but it's still better to be 6'6" than 6'3" when you're talking about two comparably effective players.

yea his height will play a factor on the offensive side, but his height and weight will slow him down on the defensive side when it comes to playing guys like rose, paul, williams and such who are real quick. i still think roses quickness and athletic ability will definitely make up for his lack of height compared to evans

D Roses Bulls
04-08-2010, 06:54 PM
so that equals -5? Thats what you were going for right?

lmao...... oh that chronz is a quick one, lol that was good

Da Knicks
04-08-2010, 06:55 PM
I cant believe Harrington made the list! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT freaking black hole

Hawkeye15
04-08-2010, 06:56 PM
I still dont see why hes picking on a guy who was basically injured half the year, has cut down on his shooting since last year and is looking to pass more. Hes just not very good at it yet, he should stop taking jumpshots though.


Good one ;)

I thought that after I typed it, that really, Jefferson's efficiency was far better the previous 2 years, in the elite PF range, but watching him this year, he is right on.
And I also agree with your general opinion on Jefferson. He shoots too many jumpers outside, and really, his play the first half of the season brought his PER down below 20 for the year, so its not fair.
But its annoying to watch him at times. He blatantly misses open players because he is overthinking his next move, and holds the ball for ridiculous amounts of time

D Roses Bulls
04-08-2010, 06:57 PM
I cant believe Harrington made the list! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT freaking black hole

:)

i know ben gordon is injured and hasnt played but he should of made this list just based off his reputation

Toenail Clipper
04-08-2010, 06:59 PM
I agree with everything else but not Evans.

ThuglifeJ
04-08-2010, 07:08 PM
Jameer Nelson deserves to be on this list first ballot. He's the definition of this list.
He's the perfect example of a "ball hog"
I'd go.

1.JR Smith (but he can get hot sometimes)
2.Jameer Nelson
3.Pargo (Ive watched plenty Bulls games)
4.Ellis
5.Beasley

Jameers mindset is honestly this. Every game. He's an idiot the only time the ball moves is when he's on the bench of FORCED to pass the ball off by SVG. He will run his own offense until Stan runs a play it's nuts.

-Dribbles 14 secs+ off shot clock looking for his own shot-calls for a pick-dribbles more-pulls up contested jump shot or drives in and gets stuffed-gets destroyed on the other end too, cant play D.

blastmasta26
04-08-2010, 07:20 PM
lol as soon as I looked at the title, I knew Al Harrington HAD to be on this list.

nycericanguy
04-08-2010, 07:53 PM
I like messing with Bulls fans that bring Rose into every thread for no reason.

haha seriously!!!, no matter what thread i'm reading a bulls fan always tries to make it about Rose... i thought I was the only one that noticed!

BoognishMN
04-08-2010, 07:56 PM
I can't believe you called me a chucker. No way I'm a chucker, I do
not chuck, never chucked, never have chucked, never will chuck, no chuck!

montazingmvp
04-08-2010, 08:37 PM
but they are almost always accurate....
If you don't understand them, its not his fault.

PER is not completely accurate...its a good guideline, but if taken any more seriously its not that great....

whats ironic about this list is that one of the main weaknesses of PER is that is does not accurately assess volume shooters...in that PER awards players that take a lot of shots even if they're not hitting them at the most accurate of rates.

ts% is of course very accurate...but he did not create this formula, i believe mike dunleavy did.

J_M_B
04-08-2010, 08:52 PM
Yeah Beasley is a ballhog..

-Kobe24-TJ19-
04-08-2010, 08:59 PM
J.R. Smith should be on that list

Raph12
04-09-2010, 01:51 AM
Pissed for what reason? The only time Miami actually leads in a game is when Beasley is benched.....look at the faces of his teammates when he touches the ball, they just disinterested. His presence alone is a minus for Miami. Whenener Beasley is in the game, they'll get frustrated, once he's benched, they go on a run...lol

Not really, I think every Heat fan knows that Beasley's a ballhog/Inefficient, if they deny it, they're just Beasley homers.

Glad to see you guys can be objective and admit when one of your team's players aren't performing well... I was expecting all hell to break loose.




-1

x5

You do know that (-1) x 5 = (-5) right?

tredigs
04-09-2010, 02:09 AM
PER is not completely accurate...its a good guideline, but if taken any more seriously its not that great....

whats ironic about this list is that one of the main weaknesses of PER is that is does not accurately assess volume shooters...in that PER awards players that take a lot of shots even if they're not hitting them at the most accurate of rates.

ts% is of course very accurate...but he did not create this formula, i believe mike dunleavy did.

Exactly. PER would benefit greatly if it was adjusted to need a >44% FG% [or some similar number involving TS%, etc] before a shot was considered an addition to your PER. I'm foggy on the exact numbers, but I remember reading once that anything above ~21% FG% would go down as a positive addition to your PER if you continued to chuck shots.

Though I have no idea why this is the case, does anybody else?

ellesmeire
04-09-2010, 02:59 AM
thank god someone understands that Pargo sucks beyond belief

JayW_1023
04-09-2010, 05:12 AM
Hollinger added Evans and not Brandon Jennings?

Anon
04-09-2010, 06:23 AM
Ellis is by far the worst. He stands out on the Warriors for being a ball hog. That is like being made fun of by lilliputians for being short.

GSW Hoops
04-09-2010, 11:48 AM
Monta Ellis
Baron Davis
'Sheed
Kobe (at times)

ANTOINE WALKER (all-time candidate)

Raoul Duke
04-09-2010, 12:07 PM
but they are almost always accurate....
If you don't understand them, its not his fault.

You have got to be kidding me. The man designed his entire system to back up the conclusions he'd already come to. It's reasonably accurate, but it was also created based on confirmation bias, so... whatever. People are allowed to take it with a grain of salt and that doesn't make them dumb.

DerekRE_3
04-09-2010, 12:20 PM
Hollinger added Evans and not Brandon Jennings?

Jennings attempts 15 shots in 32.6 mpg, Tyreke attempts 16 shots a game in 37 mpg. I guess Hollinger put Tyreke there because he handles the ball a lot and looks for his shot first. At least Tyreke has a decent case to defend himself for taking that many shots, 46% FG isn't that bad. Jennings can't really say the same with his 37% FG.

cmellofan15
04-09-2010, 12:28 PM
J.R. Smith should be on that list

he deservingly made it.

Hawkeye15
04-09-2010, 12:38 PM
PER is not completely accurate...its a good guideline, but if taken any more seriously its not that great....

whats ironic about this list is that one of the main weaknesses of PER is that is does not accurately assess volume shooters...in that PER awards players that take a lot of shots even if they're not hitting them at the most accurate of rates.
ts% is of course very accurate...but he did not create this formula, i believe mike dunleavy did.

not entirely true. Being a chucker, as you identified in the bold part, does indeed hurt youre overall PER, but you are correct, that is doesn't penalize inefficiency with high volume shots, and it awards them with usage, so not the most accurate, of course.
ts% is very accurate, we can agree on that.

Hawkeye15
04-09-2010, 12:47 PM
Monta Ellis
Baron Davis
'Sheed
Kobe (at times)

ANTOINE WALKER (all-time candidate)

omg, for sure. How many times would you be watching Toine' lead a 3-1 break, and he decides the best shot for the team is for him to pull up from 25', and hoist a three

stealth33
04-09-2010, 01:11 PM
People are too distracted by Evans being on here...to be honest the first 2 names that came to mind for me when I read the title of his article were Pargo and Ellis.

The conversation really ends there.

Pargo is the ALL TIME GREAT when it comes to mediocre talent who plays completely beyond his role in critical moments. Remember the Hornets in the playoffs a couple years ago? I think it was against the spurs. You'd think he was the star of the hornets and not Chris Paul the way the ball would never leave his hands. Since joining the bulls it is just as bad. What is that guy thinking...it's pretty disgusting to watch.

Ellis no comment. Dude thinks he's the second best player in the world.

I'd like to throw Ben Gordon's name into the ring. Unlike a few of these others, he's actually a really good shooter....but I don't think I've ever seen as big of a black hole on offense as Gordon. Haven't watched him much since he left the Bulls. Anyone remember Bulls/Celtics?(of course you do) My friends and I started tallying up the amount of possessions where he would get the ball and it would not leave his hands from that point.

Pietrus also had a bad habit of having the ball(and a teammate) on a fast break and stubbornly taking it to the hole (contested) and missing. Just honorable mention.

twoearl
04-09-2010, 01:34 PM
this is why number geeks should stick to creating computers and working at NASA. The average nba fan can see that almost all of these players are currently on HORRIBLE teams. Guess what happens on a horrible team? Players develop bad habits and there is no order.

And how are you going to make fun of a darn ROOKIE who is playing out of position.

Hollinger is a joke lol

GSW Hoops
04-09-2010, 04:01 PM
omg, for sure. How many times would you be watching Toine' lead a 3-1 break, and he decides the best shot for the team is for him to pull up from 25', and hoist a three

Antoine's idea of a good shot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d6U8vcinX4&feature=related

JNA17
04-10-2010, 12:09 AM
Antoine's idea of a good shot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d6U8vcinX4&feature=related

nice shot lol