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View Full Version : Is it possible to argue a case for Dwight over Lebron???



JordansBulls
04-02-2010, 05:24 PM
First I agree that these two along with Durant will probably be top 3-4 for years to come in the NBA. However Dwight hardly ever gets any respect. Whenever his name comes up he is only mentioned at times as a top 5 player. Not sure how that is the case when he beat him last year in the playoffs with the inferior team, with a team that was the heavy underdogs (Not one expert even picked Dwight to beat Lebron in the playoffs last year.) and also the team that was missing it's star player including having the worst backcourt of all time to make the finals.

It's clear that Dwight want get as many accolades as Lebron, but if he continues to beat Lebron in the playoffs when Lebron has the better record than I don't see why he couldn't be considered at least on his level.

abe_froman
04-02-2010, 05:28 PM
no,no there isnt.and no he isnt

he's very good but just no

Hawkeye15
04-02-2010, 05:29 PM
as great as he is, probably not

Jmess0311
04-02-2010, 05:33 PM
does it really matter...its all about championships, and neither of them will win it this year...so they can battle for the "mvp" as kobe grabs his fifth nba championship and another finals mvp, thats the only mvp that matters

Reversed86Curse
04-02-2010, 05:34 PM
very doubtful to say the least. By many accounts, you could argue that Howard isn't even the top Big in the league this year, while LBJ is clearly top 3 total

SteveNash
04-02-2010, 05:49 PM
If anything Howard gets too much credit.

tredigs
04-02-2010, 05:50 PM
First I agree that these two along with Durant will probably be top 3-4 for years to come in the NBA. However Dwight hardly ever gets any respect. Whenever his name comes up he is only mentioned at times as a top 5 player. Not sure how that is the case when he beat him last year in the playoffs with the inferior team, with a team that was the heavy underdogs (Not one expert even picked Dwight to beat Lebron in the playoffs last year.) and also the team that was missing it's star player including having the worst backcourt of all time to make the finals.

It's clear that Dwight want get as many accolades as Lebron, but if he continues to beat Lebron in the playoffs when Lebron has the better record than I don't see why he couldn't be considered at least on his level.

Lebron is putting up numbers and dominating the league in a way that only a handful of players in the history of the NBA ever have. Dwight is doing things that at least 5 bigs have done in the last 15 years. If he had a jumpshot, a passing game and some better post moves, we could start this discussion. But at this point he's still far too limited.

I also have to disagree that the Cavs had the far superior team. Replace Dwight with Gortat, and Lebron with Wally Sczerbiak. Who has the better team?

C: Gortat = Z

PF: Rashard > Varejao

SF: Pietrus = Wally

SG: Hedo > West

PF: Alston < Mo

Benches would both pretty much suck that year. Regardless, they were the inferior team because Lebron was the far superior player, not because of the role players. This year, if Vince shows up like he's shown he can in the 2nd half, with a healthy Jameer Nelson and an improved JJ. Redick + Barnes, I'd still put the supporting casts at a comparable level. Although I like the Cavs better this year.

That said, if Dwight dominates the playoffs, and leads the Magic to a ring while going through Lebron, you might have a bit of a case. But at this point no, there's no comparison. Lebron is the much more complete, much better player.

carter15
04-02-2010, 06:01 PM
Isn't Dwight as dominant on defense than Lebron is on offense?

masalex1205
04-02-2010, 06:03 PM
if anything howard gets too much credit.

+1

Hustla23
04-02-2010, 06:06 PM
This thread is ******** with some of the stupidest logic I've heard.

Never mind basketball being a team sport, Lebron and Dwight should just play one on one for the EC championship... :facepalm:

jim51990
04-02-2010, 06:24 PM
not even close
it makes me upset that someone would even think that
dwight lakes much of an offensive game. great player? yes but lebron may end up being the greatest to ever player

D Roses Bulls
04-02-2010, 06:25 PM
First I agree that these two along with Durant will probably be top 3-4 for years to come in the NBA. However Dwight hardly ever gets any respect. Whenever his name comes up he is only mentioned at times as a top 5 player. Not sure how that is the case when he beat him last year in the playoffs with the inferior team, with a team that was the heavy underdogs (Not one expert even picked Dwight to beat Lebron in the playoffs last year.) and also the team that was missing it's star player including having the worst backcourt of all time to make the finals.

It's clear that Dwight want get as many accolades as Lebron, but if he continues to beat Lebron in the playoffs when Lebron has the better record than I don't see why he couldn't be considered at least on his level.

people, especially on this site do not give dwight enough credit. the same people that picked the cavs last year to beat orlando are still doubting orlando again this year. maybe its because they DONT watch enough of the magic and watch dwight actually play and see how he impacts a game just as much as LBJ does or maybe its just a lack of knowledge on their side and they listen to whatever the hell ESPN says. either way, dwight will prove most of you wrong and when that happens your gonna have to find someone else to call overrated

GSW Hoops
04-02-2010, 06:26 PM
Dwight is a great big man (by today's standards), but he's not on LeBron's level. No current NBA player is.

JordansBulls
04-02-2010, 07:08 PM
Lebron is putting up numbers and dominating the league in a way that only a handful of players in the history of the NBA ever have. Dwight is doing things that at least 5 bigs have done in the last 15 years. If he had a jumpshot, a passing game and some better post moves, we could start this discussion. But at this point he's still far too limited.

I also have to disagree that the Cavs had the far superior team. Replace Dwight with Gortat, and Lebron with Wally Sczerbiak. Who has the better team?

C: Gortat = Z

PF: Rashard > Varejao

SF: Pietrus = Wally

SG: Hedo > West

PF: Alston < Mo

Benches would both pretty much suck that year. Regardless, they were the inferior team because Lebron was the far superior player, not because of the role players. This year, if Vince shows up like he's shown he can in the 2nd half, with a healthy Jameer Nelson and an improved JJ. Redick + Barnes, I'd still put the supporting casts at a comparable level. Although I like the Cavs better this year.

That said, if Dwight dominates the playoffs, and leads the Magic to a ring while going through Lebron, you might have a bit of a case. But at this point no, there's no comparison. Lebron is the much more complete, much better player.


Lebron puts up big numbers because he always has the ball in his hands. Dwight doesn't get the ball even half as much as Lebron does.

And the Cavs were clearly better. They had the best record in the league, the highest SRS rating, won by the most ppg, top 4 in defensive and offensive efficiency and held teams to the lowest scoring all year. Not to mention no one even picked Orlando to win.

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg
http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers

tredigs
04-02-2010, 07:24 PM
Lebron puts up big numbers because he always has the ball in his hands. Dwight doesn't get the ball even half as much as Lebron does.

And the Cavs were clearly better. They had the best record in the league, the highest SRS rating, won by the most ppg, top 4 in defensive and offensive efficiency and held teams to the lowest scoring all year. Not to mention no one even picked Orlando to win.

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg
http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers

Don't deny someones greatness just because they have the ball in their hands a lot. He has the ball in his hands a lot because he can handle that role, and they NEED him to handle that role. There have been dozens of players over the past decade with similar usage %'s to LBJ, and none of them control games /put up numbers at the level he does.

He literally does everything well: He's the best passing forward the leagues ever seen, a solid rebounder, unbelievable scorer, elite defender, extremely efficient, and has the best 4th quarter / clutch time stats in the NBA over his tenure.

Dwight has many glaring holes in his game; passing, post moves, lack of a mid-range shot, handles, etc. You can't compare a complete player to a raw center. Even if he's dominant enough at what he's good at to be the best at his position in the league.

The reason his team was rated higher than Orlando is because he was on it, make no mistake about that man. They just happened to match up terribly with Dwight down low, which is why they went out and got the best available big they could find. For this reason, they'll be the favorites again, and I'll be putting my money on the Cavs this time.

IRUAM #21
04-02-2010, 07:27 PM
Lebron puts up big numbers because he always has the ball in his hands. Dwight doesn't get the ball even half as much as Lebron does.

And the Cavs were clearly better. They had the best record in the league, the highest SRS rating, won by the most ppg, top 4 in defensive and offensive efficiency and held teams to the lowest scoring all year. Not to mention no one even picked Orlando to win.

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg
http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers

Why are you using IE ? Get with the program, Man.

td0tsfinest
04-02-2010, 07:28 PM
Its always so hard to compare two guys that play different positions.
Dwight is a great player and he's improved on a lot of his game. But Lebron is still the superior player.

td0tsfinest
04-02-2010, 07:28 PM
Lebron puts up big numbers because he always has the ball in his hands. Dwight doesn't get the ball even half as much as Lebron does.

And the Cavs were clearly better. They had the best record in the league, the highest SRS rating, won by the most ppg, top 4 in defensive and offensive efficiency and held teams to the lowest scoring all year. Not to mention no one even picked Orlando to win.

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg
http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers

are you still using windows 98?

GSW Hoops
04-03-2010, 12:15 AM
are you still using windows 98?

Windows 98 doesn't have the CPU monitor feature.

You can set any operating system that's XP and above to "classic" view and it will look like that.

*Superman*
04-03-2010, 12:22 AM
It's funny how this thread got OT so fast. But Dwight doesn't get enough credit. That being said, LeBron is still a hell of a player.

slack_justin
04-03-2010, 12:33 AM
yes its possible. depends what your looking for. if you have scoring already you may want dwight. if you have big guys down low and good D then you would want lebron

JordansBulls
04-03-2010, 01:17 AM
Why are you using IE ? Get with the program, Man.

Because it is the only browser allowed at work. I use Safari or Google Chrome for this site here and use Mozilla for checking bills.

Jenceman
04-03-2010, 01:17 AM
Most likely not, unless you had a team that already has a great perimeter player and is in desperate need of a Big man.

tredigs
04-03-2010, 01:23 AM
Another thing that severely hampers him is his free throw shooting. The Spurs employed the Hack-a-Dwight tonight, and his own foul trouble to go along with his 2/11 foul shooting sunk the Magic's ship in this one. Gotta find a way to get that around 70%.

Dwight should use the old tried and true handles cure and just dribble a basketball EVERYWHERE he goes. If his handles improve and he has a better feel for the ball, I'm willing to bet it would translate to free throw shooting as well.

IRUAM #21
04-03-2010, 01:23 AM
Because it is the only browser allowed at work. I use Safari or Google Chrome for this site here and use Mozilla for checking bills.

Ok, lol, I was just messing.

jackdawson
04-03-2010, 01:27 AM
If anything Howard gets too much credit.

This.

Raph12
04-03-2010, 02:44 AM
Lebron is putting up numbers and dominating the league in a way that only a handful of players in the history of the NBA ever have. Dwight is doing things that at least 5 bigs have done in the last 15 years. If he had a jumpshot, a passing game and some better post moves, we could start this discussion. But at this point he's still far too limited.

I also have to disagree that the Cavs had the far superior team. Replace Dwight with Gortat, and Lebron with Wally Sczerbiak. Who has the better team?

C: Gortat = Z

PF: Rashard > Varejao

SF: Pietrus = Wally

SG: Hedo > West

PF: Alston < Mo

Benches would both pretty much suck that year. Regardless, they were the inferior team because Lebron was the far superior player, not because of the role players. This year, if Vince shows up like he's shown he can in the 2nd half, with a healthy Jameer Nelson and an improved JJ. Redick + Barnes, I'd still put the supporting casts at a comparable level. Although I like the Cavs better this year.

That said, if Dwight dominates the playoffs, and leads the Magic to a ring while going through Lebron, you might have a bit of a case. But at this point no, there's no comparison. Lebron is the much more complete, much better player.

Gortat>>>>>Wally, you're really comparing Gortat to Wally?... The lineups should look like this:

Cavs
PG - Mo Williams
SG - Anthony Parker
SF - Antawn Jamison
PF - JJ Hickson
C - Shaquille O'Neal
Bench - Andy Varejao, Delonte West, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Jamario Moon, Daniel Gibson, Jawad Williams, etc...

Magic
PG - Jameer Nelson
SG - Vince Carter
SF - Matt Barnes
PF - Rashard Lewis
C - Marcin Gortat
Bench - Mickael Pietrus, JJ Redick, Brandon Bass, Ryan Anderson, Jason Williams, Anthony Johnson, etc...

I'll go out on a limb and bet $500 that the Magic without Dwight would lose to the Cavs (healthy) without Lebron. Did you watch them tonight against the Spus, they got whooped on both ends everytime Dwight hit the bench.

Now I do agree that Howard isn't better than Lebron, no doubt, but his impact on games is undeniable and he's right up there with him in that sense.

alencp3
04-03-2010, 02:49 AM
LBJ is on another level like MJ was on Ewing

_KB24_
04-03-2010, 03:03 AM
Phil Jackson said this last year I believe that if he could choose one player to start a team with besides Kobe, it would be Dwight. It's much easier to build around a dominant big than a dominant wing.

Joshtd1
04-03-2010, 03:11 AM
No. Sorry, I would never choose Dwight over LBJ.

Dwight is a great shot blocker and rebounder, but him not being a go to guy is the biggest reason. He isnt someone I would feel confident in giving the ball to and wanting him to dominate on offense and win me a game.

That and LBJ makes life so much easier for his teammates, its amazing.

tredigs
04-03-2010, 03:21 AM
Gortat>>>>>Wally, you're really comparing Gortat to Wally?... The lineups should look like this:

Cavs
PG - Mo Williams
SG - Anthony Parker
SF - Antawn Jamison
PF - JJ Hickson
C - Shaquille O'Neal
Bench - Andy Varejao, Delonte West, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Jamario Moon, Daniel Gibson, Jawad Williams, etc...

Magic
PG - Jameer Nelson
SG - Vince Carter
SF - Matt Barnes
PF - Rashard Lewis
C - Marcin Gortat
Bench - Mickael Pietrus, JJ Redick, Brandon Bass, Ryan Anderson, Jason Williams, Anthony Johnson, etc...

I'll go out on a limb and bet $500 that the Magic without Dwight would lose to the Cavs (healthy) without Lebron. Did you watch them tonight against the Spus, they got whooped on both ends everytime Dwight hit the bench.

Now I do agree that Howard isn't better than Lebron, no doubt, but his impact on games is undeniable and he's right up there with him in that sense.

My lineup was for last years playoffs, since that's what we were talking about. And I'm glad you're willing to go out on that make believe limb and all, but that's here nor there.

And yeah I watched the game. They struggled with him in, and worse with him out. They're a worse team without him --especially against the best PF of all time--, that shouldn't be a surprise. He played poorly tonight though, 10 points, 6 rebs, 2/11 line while they went to hack-a-dwight, and fouled out.

He's just a very incomplete, but very good defensive Center who is able to rely on his strength and athleticism to keep him chugging offensively. Lebron is a once in a generation, complete superstar.


Phil Jackson said this last year I believe that if he could choose one player to start a team with besides Kobe, it would be Dwight. It's much easier to build around a dominant big than a dominant wing.

Well then he's either lying, or has gone senile in his old age.

DCB/LAL
04-03-2010, 03:25 AM
The ONLY way you could make a case for Howard over Lebron is if you have an All-Star SF OR PF or if you have a solid SF AND PF combo and even then its a tough case to make.


Only reason I say PF/SF is because thats Lebrons primary position although he has shown he can play pretty much any position.

ElMarroAfamado
04-03-2010, 04:01 AM
does it really matter...its all about championships, and neither of them will win it this year...so they can battle for the "mvp" as kobe grabs his fifth nba championship and another finals mvp, thats the only mvp that matters

:clap:

ldc62
04-03-2010, 04:03 AM
If anything Howard gets too much credit.

Agreed. The way the media hypes him up, you would think he was playing with a bunch of scrubs, coached by a crappy coach.

You know who never gets credit anymore? Steve Nash.

heathonater
04-03-2010, 04:55 AM
for this season, lebron definitely takes the mvp. the little i know about advanced nba stats, lebron has been by far the most efficient player this season. combined with the cavs outstanding record, lebron deserves the nba award tbis year.

JasonJohnHorn
04-03-2010, 05:11 AM
It depends what you mean by "a case". Is there a case to say Howard is more skilled or talented? No. There isn't. Nobody in their right mind would say Howard is a better all around play, or has more skill or talent.

Is there a case to be made that he is better to build a team around? Or is more dominant? I would agree with that.

The center position is har dto fill, and you can have an HOF center surrounded by mid-level talent that wins. Hakeem, for his firs title, honestly didnt have any super stars with him. Thorpe was underrated as a power forward and was very good, but past that they had a young Horry, Mad Max, a young Cassell and Kenny Smith. All those guys are GOOD players and have had seasons where they were solid starters, and in the case of Thorpe put up all star numbers, but lets face it, none of them were James Worthy, or Scottie Pippen, or Joe Dumars, who each were the second fiddle on championship teams.

Looking at how amny teams won without a dominant center? Its hard to find a team that doesnt feature Michale Jordan or a trio of Peirce, Allen and Garnett that counts. Kobe had Shaq and then Gasol, Dumar and Thomas had Lambeir (who was one of the best rebounders in the league and they had one of the best back up center at the time in John Salley). Duncan/Robinson. Kareem. Parish. These teams all had good or great centers. And having a HOF center like Hakeem makes it easy to build a legit contender.

Howard provides the interior defence and rebound that anchors a team, like Ben Wallace did for the Pistons, but he's got more offence, more size and is more athletic. So if an owner was building a contender and had to choose between LBJ and Howard as the starting point, I'd have to guess that a lot fo guys might start with Howard because center is the hardest piece to fill. There are a lot of good small forwards out there, some who can almost keep up with LBJ (Pierce, Granger, Artest, all come to mind, Gerald Wallace, Josh Smith are some others), and though none are as good, most could keep up with him better than many starting centers could keep up with Howard.

And considering Howard reboudning numbers and blocking, Id say he is more dominant. The fact that his team beat out James's team in the playoffs last year also gives him an advantage.

So, if i was asked who the better all around player was, or who was more skiller, I wouldnt hesitate: James. If you ask me who is more domiant, or who would be better to start a team around, I would hesitate before saying James, and I wouldnt call anybody who picked Howard out on it, that is a legit choice.

tredigs
04-03-2010, 05:34 AM
It depends what you mean by "a case". Is there a case to say Howard is more skilled or talented? No. There isn't. Nobody in their right mind would say Howard is a better all around play, or has more skill or talent.

Is there a case to be made that he is better to build a team around? Or is more dominant? I would agree with that.

The center position is har dto fill, and you can have an HOF center surrounded by mid-level talent that wins. Hakeem, for his firs title, honestly didnt have any super stars with him. Thorpe was underrated as a power forward and was very good, but past that they had a young Horry, Mad Max, a young Cassell and Kenny Smith. All those guys are GOOD players and have had seasons where they were solid starters, and in the case of Thorpe put up all star numbers, but lets face it, none of them were James Worthy, or Scottie Pippen, or Joe Dumars, who each were the second fiddle on championship teams.

Looking at how amny teams won without a dominant center? Its hard to find a team that doesnt feature Michale Jordan or a trio of Peirce, Allen and Garnett that counts. Kobe had Shaq and then Gasol, Dumar and Thomas had Lambeir (who was one of the best rebounders in the league and they had one of the best back up center at the time in John Salley). Duncan/Robinson. Kareem. Parish. These teams all had good or great centers. And having a HOF center like Hakeem makes it easy to build a legit contender.

Howard provides the interior defence and rebound that anchors a team, like Ben Wallace did for the Pistons, but he's got more offence, more size and is more athletic. So if an owner was building a contender and had to choose between LBJ and Howard as the starting point, I'd have to guess that a lot fo guys might start with Howard because center is the hardest piece to fill. There are a lot of good small forwards out there, some who can almost keep up with LBJ (Pierce, Granger, Artest, all come to mind, Gerald Wallace, Josh Smith are some others), and though none are as good, most could keep up with him better than many starting centers could keep up with Howard.

And considering Howard reboudning numbers and blocking, Id say he is more dominant. The fact that his team beat out James's team in the playoffs last year also gives him an advantage.

So, if i was asked who the better all around player was, or who was more skiller, I wouldnt hesitate: James. If you ask me who is more domiant, or who would be better to start a team around, I would hesitate before saying James, and I wouldnt call anybody who picked Howard out on it, that is a legit choice.

I agree with your points, but I have my own take on it.

I'll copy/paste my applicable argument from the other thread for why I'd choose to start a franchise around KD instead of Dwight. They relate:


And this is where we disagree. I feel like you're overvaluing Dwight, and undervaluing KD. If you're offering me prime Shaq or Prime Duncan over this 21 year old Durant?... Then sure, give me the big! But not D. Howard. Just because we've seen an influx of insanely talented wings in the past decade, does not mean that they're the norm.

You can't ignore the fact that D. Howard --even as the best big in the league the past few years-- (which would not have been the case at all had the players of a decade ago been in their prime now) even having a strong supporting cast, has not been able to win a ring.

So look at it this way; I think that if Durant and the Thunder have Carlos Boozer / Pau Gasol / D. Howard / Andrew Bogut / Tim Duncan / Chris Bosh and possibly even next years version of Brook Lopez, then next year they would be immediate title contenders. That six or seven bigs off the top of my head, in an insanely depleted big league (which I expect to change soon, which is why I'm choosing Durant), where as if this were the 90's I would have at least 10 bigs to choose from. And I didn't even include the possible strong returns of Yao and Greg Oden or future prospects like Demarcus Cousins.

The only wing / player in general I would take over Durant at this point (given his age/upside) is Lebron James. I would contemplate Wade, but he's 28. Kobe's 32, so you can't realistically take him to build a franchise around, especially being that Durant is having a better year than him already as a 21 yr old.

So all things said, although D. Howard is currently the best big in the league (and his defense absolutely can't be ignored), I think that a player of Durant's caliber; as a 22-30 year old, could win a ring with a multitude of other bigs. I don't think Dwight as he currently is (now maybe his offensive game grows more, but I think that it is probably nearing its peak, and I think that other bigs are going to start coming in and catching up) is more valuable than a 21 year old KD.


If I'd start a franchise with KD over Dwight, I'd also obviously rather start a franchise with Lebron over Dwight. From a financial and competitive take, I think it would be the best choice 10/10 times.

JordansBulls
04-03-2010, 08:13 AM
Agreed. The way the media hypes him up, you would think he was playing with a bunch of scrubs, coached by a crappy coach.

You know who never gets credit anymore? Steve Nash.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_wtf.gif

You can't be serious here.

Howard has never been hyped up. Whereas Lebron was hyped before he ever came into the NBA and was even mentioned in a movie.

JayW_1023
04-03-2010, 08:33 AM
To the thread starter: no.

D Roses Bulls
04-03-2010, 08:34 AM
thats the problem with you kids now a days, never seen true centers before. if you dont think howard is a true center and deserves the credit he gets you might as well quit psd cause you obviously dont know what you are talkin bout

jackdawson
04-03-2010, 09:12 AM
"If you are the best, you will have a lot of haters who just can't deal with your greatness."----Said someone.

JordansBulls
04-03-2010, 12:54 PM
thats the problem with you kids now a days, never seen true centers before. if you dont think howard is a true center and deserves the credit he gets you might as well quit psd cause you obviously dont know what you are talkin bout

People like flash these days, which is why Duncan never gets credit either.

CowboysKB24
04-03-2010, 12:56 PM
no

tredigs
04-03-2010, 01:50 PM
People like flash these days, which is why Duncan never gets credit either.

I think Dwight's real good, but he's not a player that is going to take over a game on both ends of the floor. Which is why he cannot and should not be mentioned in the same book as Duncan, let alone the same sentence.

Dwight may be a true center, but imo he's not a truly great center. That belong to the greats who had reliable post moves and somewhat of a passing game to go along with the presence on D. Olajuwon, Robinson, Duncan (can play both), Ewing, Shaq, and Mourning before the kidney disease --among others-- had this. At this point D. Howard doesn't.

It's no knock on Dwight to not be considered more important than a guy who is probably going to go down as a person who's mentioned in GOAT talks. It's as if you guys have already forgot what a truly dominant center is.

MacFitz92
04-03-2010, 02:40 PM
This is just my opinion, but I'll take Dwight any day over LeBron. To lead the league in rebounds and blocks for three straight years is just amazing to say the least. For one, it has never been done. That just shows his dominance in this league. Is he the better player? I'm not completely sold on that. But when we are in a league with a plethora of wings and guards that are very talented (LeBron, Kobe, Melo, Durant, Wade, Roy, Johnson), just to name a few, and there are maybe a handful of good centers, I'll take Dwight any day.

MacFitz92
04-03-2010, 02:43 PM
I think Dwight's real good, but he's not a player that is going to take over a game on both ends of the floor. Which is why he cannot and should not be mentioned in the same book as Duncan, let alone the same sentence.

Dwight may be a true center, but imo he's not a truly great center. That belong to the greats who had reliable post moves and somewhat of a passing game to go along with the presence on D. Olajuwon, Robinson, Duncan (can play both), Ewing, Shaq, and Mourning before the kidney disease --among others-- had this. At this point D. Howard doesn't.

It's no knock on Dwight to not be considered more important than a guy who is probably going to go down as a person who's mentioned in GOAT talks. It's as if you guys have already forgot what a truly dominant center is.

He's the only player in the history of the NBA to lead the league in rebounds and blocks for twice in a row. With guys like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain who have entered this league and they haven't even done that, that says someting. If you don't think he is a "truly great center" you need to reconsider watching a different sport.

Raph12
04-03-2010, 02:50 PM
He's the only player in the history of the NBA to lead the league in rebounds and blocks for three years in a row. With guys like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain who have entered this league and they haven't even done that, that says someting. If you don't think he is a "truly great center" you need to reconsider watching a different sport.

I do agree he doesn't get enough credit, but your facts are a bit off, this will mark the second season Dwight's led the league in rebounds and blocks (still first guy to do that though, epecially in consecutive seasons), and blocks and steals weren't recorded during the primes of Wilt and Russell.

Btw he's also the first guy to lead the league in rebounds, blocks and FG percentage in the same season, youngest to 5000 rebounds, youngest DPOY and likely to be the youngest 2-time DPOY after this season.

Raph12
04-03-2010, 02:58 PM
My lineup was for last years playoffs, since that's what we were talking about. And I'm glad you're willing to go out on that make believe limb and all, but that's here nor there.

And yeah I watched the game. They struggled with him in, and worse with him out. They're a worse team without him --especially against the best PF of all time--, that shouldn't be a surprise. He played poorly tonight though, 10 points, 6 rebs, 2/11 line while they went to hack-a-dwight, and fouled out.

He's just a very incomplete, but very good defensive Center who is able to rely on his strength and athleticism to keep him chugging offensively. Lebron is a once in a generation, complete superstar.

Didn't know you guys were talking about last season.

They didn't struggle with him in, Manu was just going off, their offense was very fluent with Dwight in the lineup and they were keeping up fine. He wasn't making his FTs and didn't get enough touches to make a mark earlier in the game before they resorted to the hack-a-Dwight and 4 of his 6 foul calls were extremely suspect.

He used his athleticism only once yesterday to score offensively, three of the other four FGs were off postmoves, I do agree that Lebron is a much more complete player and that he comes along once in a generation, but I doubt we see any centers like Dwight again in this era.

I'd have a tough choice deciding based on the potential both possess, but I'd probably take Dwight just because he's easier to build around.

vito don tito
04-03-2010, 03:01 PM
Yes. Dwight Howard going to the right team could very well land that team a championship.

Lebron.... I dunno. Lebron is BETTER than Dwight Howard. Yes. Dwight Howard is a better team player than Lebron.

Lebrons problem is he is becoming a diva and thinks his own **** don't stink. I seen that happen before with the best player in the league.... his name is Allen Iverson.... how many rings does he have?

With that said, If I were Lebron, i'd be a diva too, so I cant really blame him or hate on him. Thats a lotttttt of money youve given this kid, just to play basketball!

ManRam
04-03-2010, 03:02 PM
In today's NBA, where elite big men are so uncommon, sure, I'd consider taking Dwight over LeBron. However, Dwight is lucky that there just isn't a lot of competition right now, because I think that really helps him look so much more elite and game-changing than he would be if there was really any competition out there. He is just so far ahead of the other centers out there right now that his impact is even so much significant than it normally would.

But LeBron is a top 2-3 talent EVER. His game is far more complete and he is the epitome of consistency. Dwight isn't nearly consistent enough to warrant taking him over LeBron. Also, you need to bring in guys to help Dwight succeed, whereas LeBron can fit in with just about anyone doesn't need a certain type of supporting cast.

MacFitz92
04-03-2010, 03:12 PM
I do agree he doesn't get enough credit, but your facts are a bit off, this will mark the second season Dwight's led the league in rebounds and blocks (still first guy to do that though, epecially in consecutive seasons), and blocks and steals weren't recorded during the primes of Wilt and Russell.

Btw he's also the first guy to lead the league in rebounds, blocks and FG percentage in the same season, youngest to 5000 rebounds, youngest DPOY and likely to be the youngest 2-time DPOY after this season.

EDIT: Just checked and I was wrong. I could have sworn last night they were talking about that on TNT, all well guess it was me being too tired.

tredigs
04-03-2010, 03:41 PM
Didn't know you guys were talking about last season.

They didn't struggle with him in, Manu was just going off, their offense was very fluent with Dwight in the lineup and they were keeping up fine. He wasn't making his FTs and didn't get enough touches to make a mark earlier in the game before they resorted to the hack-a-Dwight and 4 of his 6 foul calls were extremely suspect.

He used his athleticism only once yesterday to score offensively, three of the other four FGs were off postmoves, I do agree that Lebron is a much more complete player and that he comes along once in a generation, but I doubt we see any centers like Dwight again in this era.

I'd have a tough choice deciding based on the potential both possess, but I'd probably take Dwight just because he's easier to build around.

You're right, Manu was definitely going Nova and they looked fine with him in, but he wasn't taking over by any means. IMO He needs to DEMAND the ball more if he's going to be that marquee superstar.




In today's NBA, where elite big men are so uncommon, sure, I'd consider taking Dwight over LeBron. However, Dwight is lucky that there just isn't a lot of competition right now, because I think that really helps him look so much more elite and game-changing than he would be if there was really any competition out there. He is just so far ahead of the other centers out there right now that his impact is even so much significant than it normally would.

But LeBron is a top 2-3 talent EVER. His game is far more complete and he is the epitome of consistency. Dwight isn't nearly consistent enough to warrant taking him over LeBron. Also, you need to bring in guys to help Dwight succeed, whereas LeBron can fit in with just about anyone doesn't need a certain type of supporting cast.

This is my underlying point. And where you would consider taking Dwight over Lebron, I wouldn't. For the fact that Lebron truly is a once in a generation player, and I am convinced that there will be a group of bigs that come in/develop over the next few years that catch up to and/or pass Dwight in all around dominance at center.

Iodine
04-03-2010, 03:45 PM
He's the only player in the history of the NBA to lead the league in rebounds and blocks for twice in a row. With guys like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain who have entered this league and they haven't even done that, that says someting. If you don't think he is a "truly great center" you need to reconsider watching a different sport.

Um you realize that they didnt keep track of blocks back then right?

Oh wait you didnt, but its cool stay ignorant

Hellcrooner
04-03-2010, 03:48 PM
Nope as of today.

Lebron has a perfect body for Nba and also has SOME fundamentals

Dwight has a similar Perfect Body but LACKS those fundamentals.


Of coure if Howard Learns those fundamentals he can be beter than Bron unless Bron pulls a Jordan/Kobe and goes on learning and improving his skills with time

ManRam
04-03-2010, 03:53 PM
Um you realize that they didnt keep track of blocks back then right?

Oh wait you didnt, but its cool stay ignorant

Pwnage.

SteveNash
04-03-2010, 04:02 PM
Lebron puts up big numbers because he always has the ball in his hands. Dwight doesn't get the ball even half as much as Lebron does.

And the Cavs were clearly better. They had the best record in the league, the highest SRS rating, won by the most ppg, top 4 in defensive and offensive efficiency and held teams to the lowest scoring all year. Not to mention no one even picked Orlando to win.

Is Baron Davis better than Dirk Nowitzki? Dallas was clearly better, Mavs had the best record in the league, much higher SRS rating, top 5 in defensive and offensive efficiency, no one picked GS to beat Dallas, etc.

ldc62
04-03-2010, 04:21 PM
You can't be serious here.

Howard has never been hyped up. Whereas Lebron was hyped before he ever came into the NBA and was even mentioned in a movie.

You're joking right? He gets sooo much hype (we are talking about in the present).


People like flash these days, which is why Duncan never gets credit either.

Really? Duncan won 4 championships and was given credit for everyone of them. Hes also known as the greatest PF to ever play; I think thats giving enough credit.

Also if people like flash... then they should love Howard.

Jahari Kavi
04-03-2010, 04:28 PM
unfortunately for dwight, he will probably get the hakeem vs. jordan treatment.......there were a couple of years that I thought Hakeem was the best in the league (with Jordan included), but he never got that type of recognition.......not saying that Dwight is currently better than Bron, but if he one day "is" better, most fans/media won't recognize it...........

E.O.21
04-04-2010, 03:09 AM
Noo.. **** no

JordansBulls
04-04-2010, 03:57 AM
Really? Duncan won 4 championships and was given credit for everyone of them. Hes also known as the greatest PF to ever play; I think thats giving enough credit.

Also if people like flash... then they should love Howard.

He is hardly ever mentioned in the all time debates.

JordansBulls
04-04-2010, 03:58 AM
Is Baron Davis better than Dirk Nowitzki? Dallas was clearly better, Mavs had the best record in the league, much higher SRS rating, top 5 in defensive and offensive efficiency, no one picked GS to beat Dallas, etc.

Baron Davis wasn't a MVP candidate nor a top 5 player in the league.

SteveNash
04-04-2010, 12:29 PM
Baron Davis wasn't a MVP candidate nor a top 5 player in the league.

B-Diddy received an MVP vote that year, and I don't see how he should have to be an MVP candidate nor considered to be a top 5 player. Since your whole post is about not receiving enough credit, Baron Davis in '07 seems like he's much more underrated than Dwight now.

Slimsim
04-04-2010, 12:59 PM
D12 will never wing a championship. LBJ will eventually.

SchyGuy11
04-04-2010, 01:26 PM
maybe on the thunder because they already have durant, but other than that as good as dwight is lebron is better

*Superman*
04-04-2010, 01:29 PM
D12 will never wing a championship. LBJ will eventually.

Yeah be won't "wing" it he'll win it.

Chill_Will_24
04-04-2010, 03:13 PM
Im still a firm believer that PG and Center are the most important positions to fill in basketball so even if Lebron is the best player in the NBA i would rather build a team around D12 and CP3 and LBJ and any other star you wanna put beside him. For example i think CP3+D12>LBJ+Wade. This is all IMO so easy with the insults

DCB/LAL
04-04-2010, 03:24 PM
Im still a firm believer that PG and Center are the most important positions to fill in basketball so even if Lebron is the best player in the NBA i would rather build a team around D12 and CP3 and LBJ and any other star you wanna put beside him. For example i think CP3+D12>LBJ+Wade. This is all IMO so easy with the insults

Well how about if I tell you Lebron could play PG and maybe be the best PG in the league and then I told you he could play C as well and hold his own at the 5?

JordansBulls
04-04-2010, 04:54 PM
B-Diddy received an MVP vote that year, and I don't see how he should have to be an MVP candidate nor considered to be a top 5 player. Since your whole post is about not receiving enough credit, Baron Davis in '07 seems like he's much more underrated than Dwight now.

Dwight beat 2 sixty win teams.

SteveNash
04-04-2010, 05:10 PM
Dwight beat 2 sixty win teams.

Davis beat a 67 win team. And Dwight barely beat a 62 win team that barely beat a .500 team, not quite the same team as their record would indicate.

JordansBulls
04-04-2010, 05:11 PM
Davis beat a 67 win team. And Dwight barely beat a 62 win team that barely beat a .500 team, not quite the same team as their record would indicate.

Dwight beat a 66 win team with a guy who was considered the best in the league and did so without his star PG.

RadiantShot
04-04-2010, 05:14 PM
Should he be talked about with Lebron? Yes.
Will he be talked about with Lebron? Probably not.

xxseven72ducexx
04-04-2010, 05:19 PM
this thread was obviously made by a mentally ******** person...LeBron is almost just as good as Dwight defensively...LeBron gets atleast 1 block every game and is 100x better offensively than Dwight...for some reason Dwight keeps winning DPOY but i think LBJ should win it this year, he just continues to get better defensively each year and is a force on each end of the court...Dwight is nowhere near as valuable as LeBron, not even Kobe is as valuable as LeBron...I'd go as far to say as long as the NBA is a running business, no player will ever be as valuable as LeBron James to his team ever again...simply put

RadiantShot
04-04-2010, 05:31 PM
this thread was obviously made by a mentally ******** person...LeBron is almost just as good as Dwight defensively...LeBron gets atleast 1 block every game and is 100x better offensively than Dwight...for some reason Dwight keeps winning DPOY but i think LBJ should win it this year, he just continues to get better defensively each year and is a force on each end of the court...Dwight is nowhere near as valuable as LeBron, not even Kobe is as valuable as LeBron...I'd go as far to say as long as the NBA is a running business, no player will ever be as valuable as LeBron James to his team ever again...simply put

:facepalm: x9000

SteveNash
04-04-2010, 06:03 PM
Dwight beat a 66 win team with a guy who was considered the best in the league and did so without his star PG.

Dirk won the MVP that year.

JordansBulls
04-04-2010, 10:50 PM
Dirk won the MVP that year.

I think you like disagreeing with me.:)

Sox72
04-04-2010, 11:12 PM
Yeah be won't "wing" it he'll win it.

"Be" won't wing it? If you're going to comment on someone else's typo, you probably shouldn't make one in the same post.

0nekhmer
04-05-2010, 12:14 AM
lebron has all around talent
durant's closer to lebron
Dwight still needs a lot more offensive awareness

mlisica19
04-05-2010, 12:27 AM
No, Lebron brought a team of NOBODIES to the NBA Finals. James led his team last year in assists, points and rebounds. And may possibly do it again this year, hes the face of the franchise and the NBA. He can do it all

JordansBulls
04-05-2010, 08:28 AM
lebron has all around talent
durant's closer to lebron
Dwight still needs a lot more offensive awareness

Dwight's Defense = Lebron's offense.
Dwight's Offense > Lebron's defense.

ballpd05
04-05-2010, 08:44 AM
First I agree that these two along with Durant will probably be top 3-4 for years to come in the NBA. However Dwight hardly ever gets any respect. Whenever his name comes up he is only mentioned at times as a top 5 player. Not sure how that is the case when he beat him last year in the playoffs with the inferior team, with a team that was the heavy underdogs (Not one expert even picked Dwight to beat Lebron in the playoffs last year.) and also the team that was missing it's star player including having the worst backcourt of all time to make the finals.

It's clear that Dwight want get as many accolades as Lebron, but if he continues to beat Lebron in the playoffs when Lebron has the better record than I don't see why he couldn't be considered at least on his level.

The Magic had a better team than the Cavs and had mismatches all over the floor. I don't know how you can call them inferior. They were underdogs because of Lebron and for what Cleveland had accomplished in the season.

But when you look at it Big Z was no match for Dwight, none of the Cavs 4's could get out to guard Lewis, and Mo was too small to guard Hedo, Pietrus was making Lebron work for most of his points, and not to mention that Rafer was ballin and making Mo a non-factor. It was actually a mismatch for the magic. That and Dwight may be the only player in the league who can meet Lebron at the rim and have any type of consistent success.

Lebron impacts the game way more than Dwight does. Lebron changes the game offensively and defensively. He locks down the the other teams best perimeter player, has people thinking on fastbreak layups, and has to CARRY the offense not just scoring but getting others to score.

Dwight is dominant on Defense and he turns the Magic from pretty good to really good. But offensively Dwight can go out there and score 8 points and take 6 shots, but the magic still don't miss a beat on offense. It also doesn't seem like they loose alot when Gortat enters the game either.

Raph12
04-05-2010, 01:34 PM
Dwight's Defense = Lebron's offense.
Dwight's Offense > Lebron's defense.

This actually makes sense.

SteveNash
04-05-2010, 02:58 PM
I think you like disagreeing with me.:)

I'm just pointing out how flawed the Dwight upset Lebron so he deserves more credit argument you're trying to make.

RadiantShot
04-05-2010, 03:07 PM
I'm just pointing out how flawed the Dwight upset Lebron so he deserves more credit argument you're trying to make.

Jason Kidd > Steve Nash

SteveNash
04-05-2010, 03:10 PM
Jason Kidd > Steve Nash

Before microfracture surgery, yes.

After, no.

JNA17
04-05-2010, 03:15 PM
Dwight's Defense = Lebron's offense.
Dwight's Offense > Lebron's defense.

x2

D Roses Bulls
04-05-2010, 03:17 PM
Before microfracture surgery, yes.

After, no.

Jameer Nelson>Steve Nash

the Magic>The Suns

D Roses Bulls
04-05-2010, 03:18 PM
x2

x3

SteveNash
04-05-2010, 03:24 PM
jameer nelson>steve nash>rafer alston>chris duhon>lindsey hunter>derrick rose>allen iverson

ftfy

albertc86
04-05-2010, 03:25 PM
No. However, if Howard had more of an imposing offensive game, then yes. Defense may win championships but not the MVP award.

ballpd05
04-05-2010, 03:33 PM
Dwight beat 2 sixty win teams.

One of those sixty win teams was missing their best player and a solid role player in Leon Powe.

The Magic had matchup issues all over the court when they played the Magic, and while Dwight dominated the Big Z matchup... Rashard Dominated whoever was the 4 and Hedo dominated Delonte West.... Hell Rafer outplayed Mo.

Lebron played out of his mind that series, and he is what sets the tone for the Cavs offensively and is also a game changer defensively with his blocks and man coverage.

Dwight still cannot be trusted to score consistently on the block. ppl argue his shot % but many of those are off of offensive putbacks and alleys. I don't think he can be trusted to dump it down and score 1 on 1 on a consistent basis. And the Magic have shown that they don't dump it down to him consistently and still have pretty good success on offense.

That is why I think Lebron is better

RadiantShot
04-05-2010, 03:37 PM
^
Dwight didn't have Vince Carter, Matt Barnes, Jameer Nelson, Brandon Bass, & Ryan Anderson.

Missing Leon Powe really can't bring back a team from being down 3-1 in a series.

tredigs
04-05-2010, 03:55 PM
Dwight's Defense = Lebron's offense.
Dwight's Offense > Lebron's defense.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Wrong.

Lebron's an elite defender. He's already been on the all league defensive 1st team, and will probably be no lower than the defensive 2nd team this season.

Far as advanced stats go, his defensive win shares are 3rd in the league behind only Gerald Wallace and Dwight, while his offensive win shares are first in the league by a pretty wide margin. Overall win shares Lebron is first at 18.7. Followed by Durant, D. Wade and then finally Dwight Howard at 12.3.
Lebron's D-Rating of 101 is the second highest of any wing behind G. Wallace, and for SF's he holds opponents production lower than anyone other than Durant (bet you didn't expect that one). Dwight Howards offensive win shares and Offensive rating don't crack the top 20.

Bottom line? LBJ's an elite defender, arguably the best at D in his position on a year to year basis.

Dwight's not even the the first option on his team... or the second... or the third. It's a well balanced offense, but he is far from the focal point. The reason being that he's insanely limited offensively. Lebron is not limited defensively by any stretch of the imagination.

Lebron = #1 offensively, top 3-8 defensively.

Dwight = #1 defensively, top 25-35 offensively.

"But his FG% is tied for top in the league!" And he's tied with Kendrick Perkins. That's Dwight's company on that side of the court.

D Roses Bulls
04-05-2010, 04:28 PM
ftfy

rose and nelson>nash
Lewis>Amare
VC>Richardson

JordansBulls
04-05-2010, 04:35 PM
rose and nelson>nash
Lewis>Amare
VC>Richardson

Lewis in no way or shape is better than Amare.

JordansBulls
04-05-2010, 04:49 PM
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Wrong.

Lebron's an elite defender. He's already been on the all league defensive 1st team, and will probably be no lower than the defensive 2nd team this season.

Far as advanced stats go, his defensive win shares are 3rd in the league behind only Gerald Wallace and Dwight, while his offensive win shares are first in the league by a pretty wide margin. Overall win shares Lebron is first at 18.7. Followed by Durant, D. Wade and then finally Dwight Howard at 12.3.
Lebron's D-Rating of 101 is the second highest of any wing behind G. Wallace, and for SF's he holds opponents production lower than anyone other than Durant (bet you didn't expect that one). Dwight Howards offensive win shares and Offensive rating don't crack the top 20.

Bottom line? LBJ's an elite defender, arguably the best at D in his position on a year to year basis.

Dwight's not even the the first option on his team... or the second... or the third. It's a well balanced offense, but he is far from the focal point. The reason being that he's insanely limited offensively. Lebron is not limited defensively by any stretch of the imagination.

Lebron = #1 offensively, top 3-8 defensively.

Dwight = #1 defensively, top 25-35 offensively.

"But his FG% is tied for top in the league!" And he's tied with Kendrick Perkins. That's Dwight's company on that side of the court.

Lebron's defensive rating is high because the team's is. They were top 3-4 in defensive efficiency and held teams to the lowest ppg last year.

Dwight already showed Lebron who was boss in the playoffs last year. Anyway if Lebron's defense was soo good, then why would he defend the worst offensive/scoring option on the floor in the series against Orlando last year leaving guys who were 5 inches taller than his backcourt to shot over those guys?

tredigs
04-05-2010, 05:21 PM
Lebron's defensive rating is high because the team's is. They were top 3-4 in defensive efficiency and held teams to the lowest ppg last year.

Dwight already showed Lebron who was boss in the playoffs last year. Anyway if Lebron's defense was soo good, then why would he defend the worst offensive/scoring option on the floor in the series against Orlando last year leaving guys who were 5 inches taller than his backcourt to shot over those guys?

That's not how Drtg works. Your defensive rating isn't high simply because the rest of your teams is. You have to do your part. His is tied for lowest on the team w/ Varajao. You also don't get to be top 3 in defensive win shares without being a monster presence on that side of the floor.

And I'd say Lebron did his fare share in that series while Howard "showed him who's boss". Averaged: 38.5 pts, 8.3 rebs , 8 asts on them. We can continue this conversation after the playoffs, but I think the Cavs are going to dominate Orlando now that they actually have some decent bigs. And I can't tell you why the Cavs went with that approach defensively, I'm not Mike Brown. It's not as if he couldn't handle Turk defensively, they just wanted him to be a roamer.

The bottom line is that every decent NBA mind in the country is going to tell you Lebron is a top ten defender in the league. None of them are going to tell you Dwight is top ten offensively. You're fighting a losing battle. It is not close.

JordansBulls
04-05-2010, 05:31 PM
That's not how Drtg works. Your defensive rating isn't high simply because the rest of your teams is. You have to do your part. His is tied for lowest on the team w/ Varajao. You also don't get to be top 3 in defensive win shares without being a monster presence on that side of the floor.

And I'd say Lebron did his fare share in that series while Howard "showed him who's boss". Averaged: 38.5 pts, 8.3 rebs , 8 asts on them. We can continue this conversation after the playoffs, but I think the Cavs are going to dominate Orlando now that they actually have some decent bigs. And I can't tell you why the Cavs went with that approach defensively, I'm not Mike Brown. It's not as if he couldn't handle Turk defensively, they just wanted him to be a roamer.

The bottom line is that every decent NBA mind in the country is going to tell you Lebron is a top ten defender in the league. None of them are going to tell you Dwight is top ten offensively. You're fighting a losing battle. It is not close.


defensive win shares has flaws. The trick is to know those flaws and try (as best as reasonably possible) to account for them in arguments.

To understand the flaw in DWS, though, you have to start with the flaws in defensive rating. Defensive rating is an estimate of the defensive half of a pure +/- measure. The flaw is, there is no correction made for how your team (i.e. teammates) effect things. For instance, in a pure +/- stat the top of the leaderboard is going to be full of players on the best team. A role player starter on the best team might have a higher pure +/- than an impact player with bad teammates. Bringing it back to defensive rating, the point is that it measures who the best defensive players are ON THE BEST DEFENSIVE TEAMS, which isn't the same thing as best defensive player over all.

Defensive win shares has the same flaw as defensive rating, but potentially more so. Because DWS begins with defensive rating. Then, it normalizes the players defensive rating to the rest of the league by points/possession. So it does essentially what defensive rating does, twice. Defensive rating already skews the individual result based on team quality vs the rest of the league. So when DWS normalizes defensive rating to the rest of the league's points allowed, it AGAIN skews the individual result based on team quality vs the rest of the league.

tredigs
04-05-2010, 05:43 PM
defensive win shares has flaws. The trick is to know those flaws and try (as best as reasonably possible) to account for them in arguments.

To understand the flaw in DWS, though, you have to start with the flaws in defensive rating. Defensive rating is an estimate of the defensive half of a pure +/- measure. The flaw is, there is no correction made for how your team (i.e. teammates) effect things. For instance, in a pure +/- stat the top of the leaderboard is going to be full of players on the best team. A role player starter on the best team might have a higher pure +/- than an impact player with bad teammates. Bringing it back to defensive rating, the point is that it measures who the best defensive players are ON THE BEST DEFENSIVE TEAMS, which isn't the same thing as best defensive player over all.

Defensive win shares has the same flaw as defensive rating, but potentially more so. Because DWS begins with defensive rating. Then, it normalizes the players defensive rating to the rest of the league by points/possession. So it does essentially what defensive rating does, twice. Defensive rating already skews the individual result based on team quality vs the rest of the league. So when DWS normalizes defensive rating to the rest of the league's points allowed, it AGAIN skews the individual result based on team quality vs the rest of the league.

Of course it has its flaws man. Every stat has its flaws. But it's a good objective supplement to an argument. Subjectively, Lebron James was an all league defensive 1st team player last season. Objectively, the stats say that he is a top 5 defensive player in the league. The players immediately surrounding him in defensive win shares are Dwight Howard, Andrew Bogut, Gerald Wallace and Josh Smith. The who's who of the DPOY race. You can't deny the correlation between win shares and defensive dominance.

I'm done arguing the point, because you're starting to bring up things like last years playoffs (Kobe won it all last year. Is he a better all around player than Lebron? No, not even close at this point. But many fans will argue that to the death and point to the rings as the determining factor. Which is wrong for about 10 different reasons) and discounting the most objective reasons I can give to you for why he is obviously a better all around player than Dwight.

You agree or don't. Subjectively, and objectively -- I'm positive that LBJ is much better than Dwight. Not going to spend much more time on a back and forth about it tho', I really don't care that much.

SteveNash
04-05-2010, 05:53 PM
defensive win shares has flaws. The trick is to know those flaws and try (as best as reasonably possible) to account for them in arguments.

To understand the flaw in DWS, though, you have to start with the flaws in defensive rating. Defensive rating is an estimate of the defensive half of a pure +/- measure. The flaw is, there is no correction made for how your team (i.e. teammates) effect things. For instance, in a pure +/- stat the top of the leaderboard is going to be full of players on the best team. A role player starter on the best team might have a higher pure +/- than an impact player with bad teammates. Bringing it back to defensive rating, the point is that it measures who the best defensive players are ON THE BEST DEFENSIVE TEAMS, which isn't the same thing as best defensive player over all.

Defensive win shares has the same flaw as defensive rating, but potentially more so. Because DWS begins with defensive rating. Then, it normalizes the players defensive rating to the rest of the league by points/possession. So it does essentially what defensive rating does, twice. Defensive rating already skews the individual result based on team quality vs the rest of the league. So when DWS normalizes defensive rating to the rest of the league's points allowed, it AGAIN skews the individual result based on team quality vs the rest of the league.


How do you explain LeBron's much higher WS total? Weren't you a proponent of the WS formula?

Gibby23
04-05-2010, 06:01 PM
Dwight's Defense = Lebron's offense.
Dwight's Offense > Lebron's defense.

Wrong and wrong.

D Roses Bulls
04-05-2010, 06:04 PM
Lewis in no way or shape is better than Amare.

i know that, but it was replying to his thread before about iverson and mike james being better then rose.

Gibby23
04-05-2010, 06:08 PM
If you take Howard off the Magic and add Lebron, The Magic would be the team with the best record in the NBA. With Howard on the Cavs and no Lebron, the Cavs would be the 7th ot 8th seed.

D Roses Bulls
04-05-2010, 06:12 PM
If you take Howard off the Magic and add Lebron, The Magic would be the team with the best record in the NBA. With Howard on the Cavs and no Lebron, the Cavs would be the 7th ot 8th seed.

that doesnt make any sense for the simple fact thats because the team was structured in orlando to compliment howard. when you have the best big man in the game, you surround him with shooters so it takes the double teams off of howard and they have to play him man to man. the cavs dont really have any shooters, which if they had shooters like orlando, i think it would benefit lebron when lebron drives to the hole doubled, he can kick it out to someone for the 3 ball.

Gibby23
04-05-2010, 06:14 PM
that doesnt make any sense for the simple fact thats because the team was structured in orlando to compliment howard. when you have the best big man in the game, you surround him with shooters so it takes the double teams off of howard and they have to play him man to man. the cavs dont really have any shooters, which if they had shooters like orlando, i think it would benefit lebron when lebron drives to the hole doubled, he can kick it out to someone for the 3 ball.

It was built for Howard, but Lebron can make that same group of guys into a team with more wins.

D Roses Bulls
04-05-2010, 06:18 PM
It was built for Howard, but Lebron can make that same group of guys into a team with more wins.

your also forgetting, orlando had a lot of injuries, went a month without nelson, carter has been injured on and off as well as pietrus and such. orlando could of easily had the best record in the NBA right now if they played full strength and i know the cavs had a couple injuries as well, but nothing like orlando has had.

KJ21.the.truth
04-05-2010, 06:45 PM
If anything Howard gets too much credit.

Dude your a ****ing moron. Watch the guy play, he is as dominant in a game as any player in the league. Yes this means Bron too.

SteveNash
04-05-2010, 06:46 PM
your also forgetting, orlando had a lot of injuries, went a month without nelson, carter has been injured on and off as well as pietrus and such. orlando could of easily had the best record in the NBA right now if they played full strength and i know the cavs had a couple injuries as well, but nothing like orlando has had.

Cleveland went a month without Mo, Delonte West went crazy and has been injured. Shaq still out.

LeBron would clearly do better with the Magic than Howard would do with the Cavs. Howard would probably be mad about not starting over Shaq even though Shaq is the superior player, and would probably cry about touches. While LeBron would fit in perfectly with Gortat filling in fine.

MAC10TIZZY
04-05-2010, 06:50 PM
isn't dwight as dominant on defense than lebron is on offense?

+1

tredigs
04-05-2010, 06:58 PM
Cleveland went a month without Mo, Delonte West went crazy and has been injured. Shaq still out.

LeBron would clearly do better with the Magic than Howard would do with the Cavs. Howard would probably be mad about not starting over Shaq even though Shaq is the superior player, and would probably cry about touches. While LeBron would fit in perfectly with Gortat filling in fine.

You really come up with some "interesting" comments Nash.

Shaq start ahead on Howard? This isn't 2005, not happening. Though I'm not sure Shaq would ever start behind someone, so he'd just have to retire. Don't get me wrong, if it was prime Shaq versus this D. Howard, Howard would see 10 minutes a game if they played on the same team. But yeah, that's just not the case anymore.

That said, Shaq will be probably be strong enough against Dwight in a playoff series that Lebron can do what he wants with the Magic on the road to the finals.

D Roses Bulls
04-05-2010, 07:13 PM
Cleveland went a month without Mo, Delonte West went crazy and has been injured. Shaq still out.

LeBron would clearly do better with the Magic than Howard would do with the Cavs. Howard would probably be mad about not starting over Shaq even though Shaq is the superior player, and would probably cry about touches. While LeBron would fit in perfectly with Gortat filling in fine.

VC,Nelson,Anderson,Pietrus> west,shaq,MO

D Roses Bulls
04-05-2010, 07:20 PM
Cleveland went a month without Mo, Delonte West went crazy and has been injured. Shaq still out.

LeBron would clearly do better with the Magic than Howard would do with the Cavs. Howard would probably be mad about not starting over Shaq even though Shaq is the superior player, and would probably cry about touches. While LeBron would fit in perfectly with Gortat filling in fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc

JordansBulls
04-05-2010, 07:35 PM
Cleveland went a month without Mo, Delonte West went crazy and has been injured. Shaq still out.

LeBron would clearly do better with the Magic than Howard would do with the Cavs. Howard would probably be mad about not starting over Shaq even though Shaq is the superior player, and would probably cry about touches. While LeBron would fit in perfectly with Gortat filling in fine.

:speechless:

OnslaughtXX6
04-05-2010, 08:00 PM
Lebron is great

Dwight is good
















Done.

D Roses Bulls
04-05-2010, 08:51 PM
Lebron is great

Dwight is good
















Done.

here whats dwight would have to say to you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfAFnvlfTGc&feature=related

MagicBucsSox
04-05-2010, 09:10 PM
very doubtful to say the least. By many accounts, you could argue that Howard isn't even the top Big in the league this year, while LBJ is clearly top 3 total

what? so who is? who else leads the league in boards,blks,fg% and 19ppg?

RadiantShot
04-05-2010, 09:20 PM
I disagree with whoever said the Magic would be better off with Lebron over Dwight.

SteveNash
04-05-2010, 10:26 PM
You really come up with some "interesting" comments Nash.

Shaq start ahead on Howard? This isn't 2005, not happening. Though I'm not sure Shaq would ever start behind someone, so he'd just have to retire. Don't get me wrong, if it was prime Shaq versus this D. Howard, Howard would see 10 minutes a game if they played on the same team. But yeah, that's just not the case anymore.

That said, Shaq will be probably be strong enough against Dwight in a playoff series that Lebron can do what he wants with the Magic on the road to the finals.

Shaq is a true Center and a legit offensive option. If Howard were to start, it would be at PF.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc

http://tinyurl.com/y9r4vd2

Raph12
04-05-2010, 11:56 PM
Shaq is a true Center and a legit offensive option. If Howard were to start, it would be at PF.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a center's primary stats are rebounding and shotblocking... Who's the true center now? :rolleyes:


http://tinyurl.com/y9r4vd2

Relax I can do that too (http://www.youtubedoubler.com/?video1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3 DmGdKTiC51aw&start1=&video2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D V3y3QoFnqZc&start2=0&authorName=Real)

D Roses Bulls
04-06-2010, 12:34 AM
Shaq is a true Center and a legit offensive option. If Howard were to start, it would be at PF.



http://tinyurl.com/y9r4vd2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGdKTiC51aw

tredigs
04-06-2010, 12:37 AM
Shaq is a true Center and a legit offensive option. If Howard were to start, it would be at PF.





Please never coach... anyone... ever.

D Roses Bulls
04-06-2010, 12:49 AM
Please never coach... anyone... ever.

lmfao.......

Iceman778
04-06-2010, 12:05 PM
Something Yankee like, 180million.

Ragan
04-06-2010, 12:40 PM
No, and not even close. And that's not a slight to Dwight, who is a fantastic player and probably doesn't get the credit he deserves, but over LeBron? Come on people (or Magic fans, I guess I should just say).

LeBron is the best offensive player BY FAR in the NBA, can literally score just about whenever he wants, and routinely takes over games in the clutch (see the Celtics game just a few days ago, something like 22 points in the 4th). Oh yea, and he's also a first-team all-NBA defender.

Dwight is probably the best defensive player in the NBA, true. However, most of his offense comes on dunks or putbacks, created by his teammates. Not only does he not take over down the stretch, his team is unwilling to even pass to him because he's a horrible FT shooter, even for a big man.

Look, I'm not knocking Dwight by any means. But even if LeBron played 0 defense (which obviously isn't the case), he still creates an extra 26 points on offense (+12ppg, +7ast). Dwight Howard doesn't cover the 26 point differential with his defense, no matter how good he is.

mikantsass
04-06-2010, 12:47 PM
This year, noone in the NBA is on Lebron's level. Well, maybe Derrick Rose if u ask Bulls fans

SteveNash
04-06-2010, 03:12 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a center's primary stats are rebounding and shotblocking... Who's the true center now? :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:


Relax I can do that too (http://www.youtubedoubler.com/?video1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3 DmGdKTiC51aw&start1=&video2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D V3y3QoFnqZc&start2=0&authorName=Real)

Flopping in a valuable tool, Shaq just didn't get the benefit of the whistle. Shaq's play on Howard was much better.


Please never coach... anyone... ever.

Every coach in the league would agree with me, except maybe SVG.

RadiantShot
04-06-2010, 03:18 PM
^
No. Just please, be quiet.

SteveNash
04-06-2010, 03:20 PM
^
No. Just please, be quiet.

Shaq forced Amar'e out, why wouldn't he do the same to Howard?

Raph12
04-06-2010, 03:46 PM
:rolleyes:

Good one.


Flopping in a valuable tool, Shaq just didn't get the benefit of the whistle. Shaq's play on Howard was much better.

Wrong, when you're 7'1" 340, you'll rarely if ever get the call your way if you flop, there is no player in this league that could take Shaq off his feet with a spin move. Plus, Shaq would ridicule floppers saying they should "play me straight up" and "stand their ground" well looks like he needs to take his own advice.


Every coach in the league would agree with me, except maybe SVG.

No coach in the league would agree with you, except maybe one gambling against his own team.


Shaq forced Amar'e out, why wouldn't he do the same to Howard?

Because Amare wasn't a 2-time DPOY, nor did he become the 1st player in NBA history to lead the league in rebounds and blocks twice.

Amare doesn't have the interior presence Howard does, he prefers to just play as a finisher in pick-and-rolls, either pop a shot or dunk/lay the ball in.

Dwight is a true center, Amare is not, Shaq is done, period.

MagicDojo
04-06-2010, 04:43 PM
Dwights gets better every season but the Magic never get any respect. Even if we get to the Finals again people will still be calling it Luck like last year. and Dwight wont win MVP till the Magic have the best record. simple as that.

D Roses Bulls
04-06-2010, 04:56 PM
:rolleyes:



Flopping in a valuable tool, Shaq just didn't get the benefit of the whistle. Shaq's play on Howard was much better.



Every coach in the league would agree with me, except maybe SVG.

and phil jackson who actually said he owuld pick howard to start a franchise over lebron and kobe.

seriously man, i am trying to see where you are coming from but its impossible especially when you say shaq is better then howard cause thats just ludicrous

SteveNash
04-06-2010, 05:30 PM
Good one.

No point in trying to reason with someone who thinks a center is defined by shotblocking and rebounding.


Wrong, when you're 7'1" 340, you'll rarely if ever get the call your way if you flop, there is no player in this league that could take Shaq off his feet with a spin move. Plus, Shaq would ridicule floppers saying they should "play me straight up" and "stand their ground" well looks like he needs to take his own advice.


Varejao flops all the time and gets calls, Shaq certainly could and at least he's putting himself out their trying to do the dirty work. It's not like the clip of Shaq owning Dwight where Dwight showed off his poor rebounding technique and his overrated defense.



Because Amare wasn't a 2-time DPOY, nor did he become the 1st player in NBA history to lead the league in rebounds and blocks twice.

Amare doesn't have the interior presence Howard does, he prefers to just play as a finisher in pick-and-rolls, either pop a shot or dunk/lay the ball in.

Dwight is a true center, Amare is not, Shaq is done, period.

Dwight isn't a 2 time DPOY, didn't even deserve his first one. He may lead the league in rebounding and blocks, but his numbers are terrible proving that he's just going up against weak competition. Of course you're missing the point completely, or do you think a prime Ben Wallace would start over Shaq and get more touches than him?

Amar'e is a far better offensive force than Dwight, Dwight probably wishes to have even half the offensive skill Amar'e possesses. Shaq done? http://tinyurl.com/y9r4vd2


and phil jackson who actually said he owuld pick howard to start a franchise over lebron and kobe.

seriously man, i am trying to see where you are coming from but its impossible especially when you say shaq is better then howard cause thats just ludicrous

You never know what Phil's intention is. Besides that, Phil is smart enough to start Shaq at center. We're talking about this year, not 5 years from now.

Raph12
04-06-2010, 06:57 PM
No point in trying to reason with someone who thinks a center is defined by shotblocking and rebounding.

Not defined, but a center's primary purpose is defense, something Shaq rarely plays.


Varejao flops all the time and gets calls, Shaq certainly could and at least he's putting himself out their trying to do the dirty work. It's not like the clip of Shaq owning Dwight where Dwight showed off his poor rebounding technique and his overrated defense.

Varejao is not 7-1 340, nor is he the biggest guy in basketball history, Shaq could replicate everything Varejao does and still receive less than a third of Andy's calls. Dwight outrebounds Shaq every game they play and leads his team to the best defense in the league for the last two years, so you can keep blabbing on about w/e your talking about, no one's listening to you.


Dwight isn't a 2 time DPOY, didn't even deserve his first one. He may lead the league in rebounding and blocks, but his numbers are terrible proving that he's just going up against weak competition. Of course you're missing the point completely, or do you think a prime Ben Wallace would start over Shaq and get more touches than him?

Dwight will win DPOY again this year so you could continue to hate. Even if the competition is weaker within centers, it is that much stronger within the guards and forwards, and the league's athleticism is through the roof in today's league. Now you tell me, who's harder to block, a center doing a post move or an athletic guard/forward trying to dunk on/finish/shoot over you?


Amar'e is a far better offensive force than Dwight, Dwight probably wishes to have even half the offensive skill Amar'e possesses. Shaq done? http://tinyurl.com/y9r4vd2

What's your point, Russell probably wishes he had a 1/4 of the offensive skill Amare possesses, does that make Stat better?


You never know what Phil's intention is. Besides that, Phil is smart enough to start Shaq at center. We're talking about this year, not 5 years from now.

If Phil would choose Dwight over Lebron, you'd think he'd start Shaq over his #1 pick overall?... LMFAO!!!! :laugh2::laugh::laugh2: