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View Full Version : Starting a Franchise--D. Howard or K. Durant?



GSW Hoops
04-01-2010, 11:34 PM
If you were starting a franchise TODAY, who would you take: Dwight Howard or Kevin Durant?

*Superman*
04-01-2010, 11:36 PM
Hmm. This is tough, I wouldn't have a problem with either, but I take the Big Man, a lot harder to find a quality one. Both are franchise players, but Dwight can control a team defensively and offensively.

Shady66
04-01-2010, 11:36 PM
Howard.

bal_ravens
04-01-2010, 11:41 PM
Normally I would say the dominant big man because wings are normally easy to get, but Durant is one of the exceptions. The kid is a freak.

Qdawg
04-01-2010, 11:41 PM
Superman, but it was a VERY hard choice. I think Durant is the better player, but it'd just be so hard to find a great big to put with him, but top wings are fairly easy to find.

krest213
04-01-2010, 11:46 PM
KD. i can find me a decent Center. but KD is to versatile.

Raph12
04-01-2010, 11:49 PM
Dwight... One of the only legitimate centers left in the league today, not to mention controls everything on defense, while still anchoring the offense.

Jahari Kavi
04-01-2010, 11:54 PM
could go either way....the main reason I picked KD is because he is younger.....but you could go either way

valade16
04-01-2010, 11:56 PM
KD. i can find me a decent Center. but KD is to versatile.

You should share your secret stash with the league...

avrpatsfan
04-02-2010, 12:02 AM
Durant. Howard is a great center but Durant would be the face of the franchise. He's so good and he's only 21. He can match points with Lebron and he's 21!

*Superman*
04-02-2010, 12:02 AM
You should share your secret stash with the league...

:clap:

heathonater
04-02-2010, 12:11 AM
close call but a dominant center like howard is impossible to find in the league. i'll go with howard because he controls the paint with his defense and rebounding. durant is a great player though and i think he can lead the thunder to big places if they got a big man that could get boards and play some tough d.

krest213
04-02-2010, 12:15 AM
You should share your secret stash with the league...

maybe i will. maybe i won't.
do something punk..:p j/p

tredigs
04-02-2010, 12:25 AM
close call but a dominant center like howard is impossible to find in the league. i'll go with howard because he controls the paint with his defense and rebounding. durant is a great player though and i think he can lead the thunder to big places if they got a big man that could get boards and play some tough d.

I'm starting to wonder if they don't already have one. Serge Ibaka is an athletic freak in the same mold as D. Howard, but a bit more raw. The kid is a 20 year old rookie though, he could develop into something pretty special for them over the summer if he works his *** off. Plus he already has two awesome nicknames, "Air Congo" and "Dr. Nasty"! Fahkin' hilarious.

Anyway, who would I take between Dwight or KD? I'd take KD, because his game is smooth enough that it should stay strong into his later career, and I can see this kid having the potential to become an all time great if he plays his cards right. Dude's 21 and making people think twice about giving Lebron the MVP while LBJ puts up 30 / 8 / 8 on a 1st place team. That reeks of something special to me.

But if I get 2nd pick and I have to take D. Howard, I won't be crying. He's a full notch ahead of the 2nd best center in the league the past few years. I'm just not entirely convinced that he will be that much better than the other top centers for the rest of the this decade (I think he'll continue to be great, but that others will come in/catch up). We've had a drought since the late 90's, but I don't expect that to last for too much longer.

jmtapia
04-02-2010, 12:27 AM
Dwight Howard.

Sadds The Gr8
04-02-2010, 12:34 AM
The Durantula.

Avenged
04-02-2010, 01:37 AM
If it's right now i'd go with Dwight. He's the more proven player.

Jenceman
04-02-2010, 01:41 AM
Conventional wisdom points to Howard. A star big man is always a great starting point, and his rebounding and defensive ability are franchise changers. Still, I think I would pick Durant. Mancrush.

vnce536
04-02-2010, 01:50 AM
right now it has to be durant...unless dwight can get a better inside game i cant see him as a dominate center

abe_froman
04-02-2010, 01:53 AM
durant,younger/more upside..might be as good or better than howard already

in the modern nba,the old adage of needing a center if you want to win is becoming less and less true.its still good,but less of a need now

post defender,sure...but those arent that rare
dominate,no

_KB24_
04-02-2010, 01:58 AM
Dwight. I don't think we're going to see another center like him for a long, long time.

hans dolo
04-02-2010, 02:29 AM
conventional wisdom points to howard. A star big man is always a great starting point, and his rebounding and defensive ability are franchise changers. Still, i think i would pick durant. Mancrush.

+1

macc
04-02-2010, 02:37 AM
I'm suprised Durant has the most votes at this point. I think its easily Dwight. Durrant will win games, Dwight will win series with his defense while at the same time anchoring the offense. Scoring wings are way to common, we say the same thing about these guys, "they could win a ring if they had a big guy." Kobe had Shaq, then Gasol, Wade had Shaq. Without their big guys Miami is a 5th or 6th seed, same with the Lakers without Gasol. The skilled big man is what is needed to win a Championship

*Superman*
04-02-2010, 02:45 AM
I'm suprised Durant has the most votes at this point. I think its easily Dwight. Durrant will win games, Dwight will win series with his defense while at the same time anchoring the offense. Scoring wings are way to common, we say the same thing about these guys, "they could win a ring if they had a big guy." Kobe had Shaq, then Gasol, Wade had Shaq. Without their big guys Miami is a 5th or 6th seed, same with the Lakers without Gasol. The skilled big man is what is needed to win a Championship

Pretty much. They game is really changing now though. The guards/forwards are taking over: Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Durant, Melo, etc. People don't understand the importance defense plays, scoring isn't everything.

tredigs
04-02-2010, 02:50 AM
I'm suprised Durant has the most votes at this point. I think its easily Dwight. Durrant will win games, Dwight will win series with his defense while at the same time anchoring the offense. Scoring wings are way to common, we say the same thing about these guys, "they could win a ring if they had a big guy." Kobe had Shaq, then Gasol, Wade had Shaq. Without their big guys Miami is a 5th or 6th seed, same with the Lakers without Gasol. The skilled big man is what is needed to win a Championship

It's what has been the case lately, but it's not a necessity. You just need a serviceable big that can defend the skilled big man, and have a way to score that doesn't involve overpowering that big. eg. have a 6'10" SF who can play D while putting up 35 a game though lights out shooting if need be. The Bulls for example managed a way around it while battling through the best centers in NBA history. "But that was Jordan and Pippen!" <-- I know, but what I'm pointing to is that the mold is there, and I don't think there's a center that's dominant enough right now that a solid defensive big can't somewhat neutralize them on that side of the floor. Shoot even Serge Ibaka was able to hold down Duncan and Pau on defense in their last two meetings. Imagine what a player like that can do when he learns how to actually play?

That, and I think you're underestimating Durant's future. He's no dime a dozen scoring wing, the kid is probably going to be a very special player. Dwight is reaching his prime and is very good, but I'll take the already elite skills to go with the upside of the young Durant if I'm a GM.

PHX2daDEATH
04-02-2010, 03:09 AM
Durant he's got everything you could ask for in a Basketball Player and I think when his career is all said and done.. He'll be up there with Jordan, Bird, Magic...Dwight is more of a Barkley, Ewing, Malone type of player

JayW_1023
04-02-2010, 03:12 AM
I'd pick Dwight right now. Bigs over wings.

macc
04-02-2010, 03:23 AM
It's what has been the case lately, but it's not a necessity. You just need a serviceable big that can defend the skilled big man, and have a way to score that doesn't involve overpowering that big. eg. have a 6'10" SF who can play D while putting up 35 a game though lights out shooting if need be. The Bulls for example managed a way around it while battling through the best centers in NBA history. "But that was Jordan and Pippen!" <-- I know, but what I'm pointing to is that the mold is there, and I don't think there's a center that's dominant enough right now that a solid defensive big can't somewhat neutralize them on that side of the floor. Shoot even Serge Ibaka was able to hold down Duncan and Pau on defense in their last two meetings. Imagine what a player like that can do when he learns how to actually play?

That, and I think you're underestimating Durant's future. He's no dime a dozen scoring wing, the kid is probably going to be a very special player. Dwight is reaching his prime and is very good, but I'll take the already elite skills to go with the upside of the young Durant if I'm a GM.



Nope sorry man I still disagree. Going back to my original point. Scoring wings are a dime a dozen. Granted Durrant is a stud but will he be better than what T Mac was in his prime? Also remember T Mac couldn't get out of the first round of the playoffs. T Mac was averaging 32 7 7 one year. Could Durrant do that? Does Durrant make his teammates better? He scores alot of points but thats only one faucet of the game.

Dwight makes other teams change their entire offense. Can't say that about many players in this league.

Durrant is great, but is he better than these other players?

Lebron James

Kobe Bryant

Dwayne Wade

Prime T Mac

Those are the types of players I compare Durrant to. But notice as great as the players are above me, they never accomplished anything without an elite Big. Lebron is arguably the best player in the NBA and theres a good chance he won't even make the finals, they settled for an older Shaq to hopefully help him get the job done. Kobe wanted to be traded from LA before he got Gasol. Wade won his title with Shaq, but what has he done since? Hes put up great numbers, considered a top 5 player, but at the same time he doesn't make his team a legit contender. We all know a prime T Mac didn't get anywhere.


My point here is these are ceilings that Durrant can possibly get to and even they need a big man.

So in this case you take Dwight, you got your big man so now you only need a premere wing to spread the floor.

Every championship team has had a big guy in the last decade.

Lakers - Gasol
Celtics - Garnett
Spurs - Duncan
Heat - Shaq
Lakers - Shaq
Pistons - Wallace


Bulls are the exceptions with two superstars in Jordan and Pippen

Than back to bigs
Houston - Hakeem



So you have to play the odds. Unless you believeDurrant is the next Michael Jordan. Your typical GM will feel they have better odds with the dominant Center who leads in so many catagories outside of just scoring.


So I don't understand your reasoning, you say all you need is "a servicable big man" yet where are all these teams with championships? I don't think that's the case lately as you said. Sure you'll see teams with lots of wins, but defense wins champions. Just how it is....still....

Giants88
04-02-2010, 03:46 AM
Gotta go with Dwight, hands down the best center in the NBA.

tredigs
04-02-2010, 04:23 AM
Nope sorry man I still disagree. Going back to my original point. Scoring wings are a dime a dozen. Granted Durrant is a stud but will he be better than what T Mac was in his prime? Also remember T Mac couldn't get out of the first round of the playoffs. T Mac was averaging 32 7 7 one year. Could Durrant do that? Does Durrant make his teammates better? He scores alot of points but thats only one faucet of the game.

Dwight makes other teams change their entire offense. Can't say that about many players in this league.

Durrant is great, but is he better than these other players?

Lebron James

Kobe Bryant

Dwayne Wade

Prime T Mac

Those are the types of players I compare Durrant to. But notice as great as the players are above me, they never accomplished anything without an elite Big. Lebron is arguably the best player in the NBA and theres a good chance he won't even make the finals, they settled for an older Shaq to hopefully help him get the job done. Kobe wanted to be traded from LA before he got Gasol. Wade won his title with Shaq, but what has he done since? Hes put up great numbers, considered a top 5 player, but at the same time he doesn't make his team a legit contender. We all know a prime T Mac didn't get anywhere.


My point here is these are ceilings that Durrant can possibly get to and even they need a big man.

So in this case you take Dwight, you got your big man so now you only need a premere wing to spread the floor.

Every championship team has had a big guy in the last decade.

Lakers - Gasol
Celtics - Garnett
Spurs - Duncan
Heat - Shaq
Lakers - Shaq
Pistons - Wallace


Bulls are the exceptions with two superstars in Jordan and Pippen

Than back to bigs
Houston - Hakeem



So you have to play the odds. Unless you believeDurrant is the next Michael Jordan. Your typical GM will feel they have better odds with the dominant Center who leads in so many catagories outside of just scoring.


So I don't understand your reasoning, you say all you need is "a servicable big man" yet where are all these teams with championships? I don't think that's the case lately as you said. Sure you'll see teams with lots of wins, but defense wins champions. Just how it is....still....


I'll focus on the bold part about those bigs who won the ring. I think what you might be underestimating is that a) these bigs are either top-ten-all-time players or b) were accompanied by top 3 wings in the league. Sometimes both.

Lakers - Gasol [Kobe being a top 3 wing, and finals MVP]


Celtics - Garnett [Pierce being a top 3 wing, and finals MVP]

Spurs - Duncan* [Ginobili a top 5 wing, Parker a top 5 pg, Parker 1 finals MVP]

Heat - Shaq [Wade being a top 3 wing, and finals MVP]

Lakers - Shaq* [Kobe being a top 3 wing, Shaq with the finals MVP]

Pistons - Wallace [True TEAM, w/ Billups and Rip both elite, and Billups finals MVP]

*The asterisk is for the fact that Duncan and Shaq are top ten players of all time, playing in their absolute prime. If you can call a wing like Durant a dime a dozen wing, then I'd pull the same argument and call Howard a dime a dozen Center. Compare his stats to some of the 90's centers such as Olajuwon, D. Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, Ewing, etc. The fact is that they're both not dime a dozen players, but I think there's a reason why Dwight hasn't won a championship, and it's because he doesn't have that top 3 wing to supplement him. Although he MIGHT have enough supplemental cogs this year to get it done, that team is stacked.

The point I'm making is that in recent years the only teams that won a championship without a top 3 wing was the Spurs (who had an elite pg/sg combo and the best PF of all time) and the Pistons (freakishly good defensively and just an all around team).

I guess my bottom line is that I think Durant is a more transcendent wing than D. Howard is a transcendent center, so I'd try my luck going for a top 5 big in free agency or the draft and take KD if given the choice. Both are extremely valuable in getting a ring, and if the big isn't a offensive/defensive machine, both need to be top 3 in the league. And I don't think Dwight is an offensive machine. Two ways of looking at it, and that's mine.

Also, T-Mac never quite had a 32 / 7 / 7. His best year (his 7th) was a:

32 pts (on 24 fga/g. Durant takes 20) / 6.5 reb / 5.5 ast

And yes, I think KD's skill set / shooting touch to go along with his work ethic will prove to make him a better player than T-Mac. IMO he's about as good as T-Mac's prime as is.

macc
04-02-2010, 10:51 AM
I'll focus on the bold part about those bigs who won the ring. I think what you might be underestimating is that a) these bigs are either top-ten-all-time players or b) were accompanied by top 3 wings in the league. Sometimes both.

Lakers - Gasol [Kobe being a top 3 wing, and finals MVP]


Celtics - Garnett [Pierce being a top 3 wing, and finals MVP]

Spurs - Duncan* [Ginobili a top 5 wing, Parker a top 5 pg, Parker 1 finals MVP]

Heat - Shaq [Wade being a top 3 wing, and finals MVP]

Lakers - Shaq* [Kobe being a top 3 wing, Shaq with the finals MVP]

Pistons - Wallace [True TEAM, w/ Billups and Rip both elite, and Billups finals MVP]

*The asterisk is for the fact that Duncan and Shaq are top ten players of all time, playing in their absolute prime. If you can call a wing like Durant a dime a dozen wing, then I'd pull the same argument and call Howard a dime a dozen Center. Compare his stats to some of the 90's centers such as Olajuwon, D. Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, Ewing, etc. The fact is that they're both not dime a dozen players, but I think there's a reason why Dwight hasn't won a championship, and it's because he doesn't have that top 3 wing to supplement him. Although he MIGHT have enough supplemental cogs this year to get it done, that team is stacked.

The point I'm making is that in recent years the only teams that won a championship without a top 3 wing was the Spurs (who had an elite pg/sg combo and the best PF of all time) and the Pistons (freakishly good defensively and just an all around team).

I guess my bottom line is that I think Durant is a more transcendent wing than D. Howard is a transcendent center, so I'd try my luck going for a top 5 big in free agency or the draft and take KD if given the choice. Both are extremely valuable in getting a ring, and if the big isn't a offensive/defensive machine, both need to be top 3 in the league. And I don't think Dwight is an offensive machine. Two ways of looking at it, and that's mine.

Also, T-Mac never quite had a 32 / 7 / 7. His best year (his 7th) was a:

32 pts (on 24 fga/g. Durant takes 20) / 6.5 reb / 5.5 ast

And yes, I think KD's skill set / shooting touch to go along with his work ethic will prove to make him a better player than T-Mac. IMO he's about as good as T-Mac's prime as is.



I see your points, and you make good points, though you didn't comment on the fact that I brought up the point that your elite wings still needed a big to win a championship. Even with your reasoning you're proving my point. The Spurs didn't have an elite wing, look at all their championships. Detroit didn't have an elite wing. So the common ingredient in all of these champions is an elite big, not elite wing.

Durrant is great, but honesty he is a dime a dozen. Esp with how much talent we've seen come out of the drafts the past ten years in the wing positions.

Think of how many elite wings we've had just in the last 5-7 years or so.

Kobe - 4 championships (w/ Shaq)
Durrant - 0 championships
Lebron - 0 championships
Carmelo - 0 championships
Wade - 1 championship (w/ Shaq)
Roy - 0 championships
Carter - 0 championships
Johnson - 0 championships
T Mac - 0 championships
Paul Pierce - 1 championship (w/ Garnett)
Allen Iverson - 0 championship
Ray Allen - 1 Championship (1/ Garnett)

Elite wings always come and go, when Kobe retires he'll have people stepping into his place.

Basically what I'm saying is you'll always see someone comparable to a Jordan, he retired, then came Kobe, before Kobe has even retired he has Lebron and Melo and Durrant and Wade.

When Shaq retires.....who's the next Shaq?

When Duncan retires....whos the next Duncan?

When Garnet retires....whos the next Garnet?

Now you have Dwight Howard whos a a mixture of Shaqs dominance and David Robinsons length.

Theres just not alot of elite big men that come into the NBA like there are elite wings.

Elite bigs make people like Hedo Turk looks like a stud. ;)

So that's why I said, unless you think Durrant is the next Jordan (meaning will be better than Kobe, Lebron..ect) then you go with the best odds and take the big man.

But that's just me.

mikantsass
04-02-2010, 11:00 AM
Dwight, there is noone else in the league like him. There are a lot of good wing players in the league.

Double_R
04-02-2010, 11:04 AM
Dwight, there is noone else in the league like him. There are a lot of good wing players in the league.

Exactly....

Plus, whoever keeps saying KD because he is younger, that is insane... Dwight turned 23 in December...A Dwight Howard is a once a generation player, I can think of other players like KD...

Tisoykeis
04-02-2010, 11:36 AM
Durrant. I will take a line of 30 ppg, 8 rbg with his shooting over Howards 19 ppg and 13 rbg. Durrant is just getting started in my opinion and the sky is the limit for him.

Howard is not a go to player when the game is on the line like Durrant.

Raph12
04-02-2010, 11:40 AM
Dwight, there is noone else in the league like him. There are a lot of good wing players in the league.

Deadon, KD = Wade < Melo < Lebron < Kobe

He's basically this generation's Tmac, whereas Dwight is this generation's Bill Russell with the ability to score.

Tisoykeis
04-02-2010, 11:46 AM
I'm suprised Durant has the most votes at this point. I think its easily Dwight. Durrant will win games, Dwight will win series with his defense while at the same time anchoring the offense. Scoring wings are way to common, we say the same thing about these guys, "they could win a ring if they had a big guy." Kobe had Shaq, then Gasol, Wade had Shaq. Without their big guys Miami is a 5th or 6th seed, same with the Lakers without Gasol. The skilled big man is what is needed to win a Championship

What you are saying is true...good bigs compliment the wing players, but that is exactly what they are in today's game, they supplment the play of the wings players. Would Shag have won without Kobe or Wade....No Way. Would Gasol have won it without Kobe.....No.

With Wade and Shaq, anyone who watched that series knew that Wade carried that team to the championship. The fact is, most playoff games go down to the wire and you need playmakers who can create their own shot and hit crucial free throws down the stretch. Durrant can do that but Howard can't. What good is your franchise player if you have to take them out during the last 2-3 minutes because you are afraid the other team will foul them?

Again, I love Howard, but Durrant is an unbelieveable talent. You can't go wrong with either, but if I were starting a franchise, I would take Durrant.

Double_R
04-02-2010, 12:04 PM
Wow, I am surprised that so many take Durant... Dwight is first in the league in double-doubles, shooting percentage, rebounds and blocked shots. He anchors Orlando's elite defense, which holds opponents to a league-low .437 field-goal percentage. I think Jameer Nelson's quote is quite telling, "He's controlling the game defensively. All the rest of the guys that are being mentioned for MVP are just scoring the ball and making plays."... Durant is amazing, but he doesn't have the individual impact that Dwight has on the game. Oh yea and to all these people acting like Durant is going to get you a late basket, or hit the fts... I dunno, I haven't seen, but one or 2 times he has hit anything meaningful late in a game, usually I see his teammates taking care of that.. OH yea and did anyone see Shaq late in games being the go to guy, no, but he still was the most dominant player in the NBA at the time.

Twins Fanatic
04-02-2010, 12:07 PM
Durant, great all around player, and very consistent...Howards free throw percentage is terrible and gets into foul trouble too often.

Double_R
04-02-2010, 12:10 PM
What you are saying is true...good bigs compliment the wing players, but that is exactly what they are in today's game, they supplment the play of the wings players. Would Shag have won without Kobe or Wade....No Way. Would Gasol have won it without Kobe.....No.

With Wade and Shaq, anyone who watched that series knew that Wade carried that team to the championship. The fact is, most playoff games go down to the wire and you need playmakers who can create their own shot and hit crucial free throws down the stretch. Durrant can do that but Howard can't. What good is your franchise player if you have to take them out during the last 2-3 minutes because you are afraid the other team will foul them?

Again, I love Howard, but Durrant is an unbelieveable talent. You can't go wrong with either, but if I were starting a franchise, I would take Durrant.

BTW, you sound ridiculous...

so apparently you didn't watch basketball when Shaq played for the Lakers; well let me break it down for you, it's real simple, SHAQ WAS THE FINALS MVP EVERY YEAR THAT HE AND KOBE WON A TITLE TOGETHER...SHAQ WAS THE REASON THAT THEY WERE SO DOMINANT.

Baller1
04-02-2010, 12:12 PM
Deadon, KD = Wade < Melo < Lebron < Kobe

He's basically this generation's Tmac, whereas Dwight is this generation's Bill Russell with the ability to score.

KD is 5 years younger than all those players you mentioned, and it can be argued that he's better than Wade and Melo already.

wolf3742
04-02-2010, 12:21 PM
This is a touch call.. It is hard to find a top center like Howard in the league and I believe he still hasn't in his peak yet and is still imprvoing his offensive skills. Durant on the other hand is just on another level. As early as this in his career, he is already being included as one of the top players along with Kobe and Lebron...

With that, I think it is easier to build around a Center than a wing player. I can easily get a good wing to play along with Howard than a good center (which is becoming extinct) to play with Durant.

macc
04-02-2010, 12:27 PM
What you are saying is true...good bigs compliment the wing players, but that is exactly what they are in today's game, they supplment the play of the wings players. Would Shag have won without Kobe or Wade....No Way. Would Gasol have won it without Kobe.....No.

With Wade and Shaq, anyone who watched that series knew that Wade carried that team to the championship. The fact is, most playoff games go down to the wire and you need playmakers who can create their own shot and hit crucial free throws down the stretch. Durrant can do that but Howard can't. What good is your franchise player if you have to take them out during the last 2-3 minutes because you are afraid the other team will foul them?

Again, I love Howard, but Durrant is an unbelieveable talent. You can't go wrong with either, but if I were starting a franchise, I would take Durrant.


Yes I agree that a big player needs good wing players to win a championship, notice I didn't say that a big needs an "elite" wing. They don't. The Spurs multiple Champships and Detroits puts that theory to bed.

You brought up Shaq. You asked if Shaq would of won without Kobe. I agreee he prob wouldn't have but look at it this way. Kobe was the expendable one. Shaq wins a title with Kobe, you remove Kobe, and insert Dwayne Wade and theres another championship. Even before Kobe and Wade. A pre prime Shaq got to the finals with Penny Hardaway, but he just ran into the more experienced primed Hakeem (yet another elite big man). The great Lebron James hasn't won a title so now arguablly the best player in the world got the assistance of Shaq to hopefully get him over the hump. Are you seeing a pattern here?

The one constant here is the big man. There will always be a Kobe Bryant/Wade type player in the NBA. There will not always be a Shaq type of a player.

Mr. Net32
04-02-2010, 12:30 PM
[QUOTE=macc;12771564]I see your points, and you make good points, though you didn't comment on the fact that I brought up the point that your elite wings still needed a big to win a championship. Even with your reasoning you're proving my point. The Spurs didn't have an elite wing, look at all their championships. Detroit didn't have an elite wing. So the common ingredient in all of these champions is an elite big, not elite wing.

Durrant is great, but honesty he is a dime a dozen. Esp with how much talent we've seen come out of the drafts the past ten years in the wing positions.

Think of how many elite wings we've had just in the last 5-7 years or so.

Kobe - 4 championships (w/ Shaq)
Durrant - 0 championships
Lebron - 0 championships
Carmelo - 0 championships
Wade - 1 championship (w/ Shaq)
Roy - 0 championships
Carter - 0 championships
Johnson - 0 championships
T Mac - 0 championships
Paul Pierce - 1 championship (w/ Garnett)
Allen Iverson - 0 championship
Ray Allen - 1 Championship (1/ Garnett)

Elite wings always come and go, when Kobe retires he'll have people stepping into his place.

Basically what I'm saying is you'll always see someone comparable to a Jordan, he retired, then came Kobe, before Kobe has even retired he has Lebron and Melo and Durrant and Wade.

When Shaq retires.....who's the next Shaq?

When Duncan retires....whos the next Duncan?

When Garnet retires....whos the next Garnet?

Now you have Dwight Howard whos a a mixture of Shaqs dominance...


STOP RIGHT THERE... They might call him Superman but he's Nothing like Shaq in his prime

Shaq averaged 29.3 ppg & 13.2 rpg in his secon season against Ewing, Mourning, Hakeem... etc
YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS
HOWARD WILL NEVER BE AS GOOD OFFENSIVELY OR WIN MORE CHIPS THAN SHAQ.
I won't even get into what you said about Jordan

JordansBulls
04-02-2010, 12:30 PM
If you were starting a franchise TODAY, who would you take: Dwight Howard or Kevin Durant?

Dwight for sure. You go with the dominant big guy unless the smaller guy is more proven.

macc
04-02-2010, 12:31 PM
This is a touch call.. It is hard to find a top center like Howard in the league and I believe he still hasn't in his peak yet and is still imprvoing his offensive skills. Durant on the other hand is just on another level. As early as this in his career, he is already being included as one of the top players along with Kobe and Lebron...

With that, I think it is easier to build around a Center than a wing player. I can easily get a good wing to play along with Howard than a good center (which is becoming extinct) to play with Durant.



That is the key to this debate. I'm not taking anything from Durrant. He's a great player. But you can get your Durrant at your local Wal Mart. To find a Dwight Howard you have to look through somones private collection.

dtmagnet
04-02-2010, 12:33 PM
Howard for sure.

macc
04-02-2010, 12:34 PM
[QUOTE=macc;12771564]I see your points, and you make good points, though you didn't comment on the fact that I brought up the point that your elite wings still needed a big to win a championship. Even with your reasoning you're proving my point. The Spurs didn't have an elite wing, look at all their championships. Detroit didn't have an elite wing. So the common ingredient in all of these champions is an elite big, not elite wing.

Durrant is great, but honesty he is a dime a dozen. Esp with how much talent we've seen come out of the drafts the past ten years in the wing positions.

Think of how many elite wings we've had just in the last 5-7 years or so.

Kobe - 4 championships (w/ Shaq)
Durrant - 0 championships
Lebron - 0 championships
Carmelo - 0 championships
Wade - 1 championship (w/ Shaq)
Roy - 0 championships
Carter - 0 championships
Johnson - 0 championships
T Mac - 0 championships
Paul Pierce - 1 championship (w/ Garnett)
Allen Iverson - 0 championship
Ray Allen - 1 Championship (1/ Garnett)

Elite wings always come and go, when Kobe retires he'll have people stepping into his place.

Basically what I'm saying is you'll always see someone comparable to a Jordan, he retired, then came Kobe, before Kobe has even retired he has Lebron and Melo and Durrant and Wade.

When Shaq retires.....who's the next Shaq?

When Duncan retires....whos the next Duncan?

When Garnet retires....whos the next Garnet?

Now you have Dwight Howard whos a a mixture of Shaqs dominance...


STOP RIGHT THERE... They might call him Superman but he's Nothing like Shaq in his prime

Shaq averaged 29.3 ppg & 13.2 rpg in his secon season against Ewing, Mourning, Hakeem... etc
YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS
HOWARD WILL NEVER BE AS GOOD OFFENSIVELY OR WIN MORE CHIPS THAN SHAQ.



When did I say Howard will be as good as Shaq offensively? You obviously missed my point. I was comparing Dwight Howards dominance (similar to Shaq) but with more athletisism then David Robinson. Main point being he's a very rare type of player.

Obviously Dwight isn't the offensive power Shaq was. Shaq is a once in a century player. I just used Shaq as an example because noone has dominated the paint like Howard does since Shaq.

Raph12
04-02-2010, 12:38 PM
Durant is young so people are ready jump the wagon and say he's this and that, Lebron was putting up better numbers than KD at 21 and his numbers look very similar since... Who's to say he gets that much better?

Like I said, Dwight Howard is this generation's Bill Russell (with more offensive firepower) and Kevin Durant is this generation's Tracy McGrady (with less playmaking abilities, but better defense), now you tell me, who would you take?

Mr. Net32
04-02-2010, 12:44 PM
[QUOTE=Mr. Net32;12772330]



When did I say Howard will be as good as Shaq offensively? You obviously missed my point. I was comparing Dwight Howards dominance (similar to Shaq) but with more athletisism then David Robinson. Main point being he's a very rare type of player.

Obviously Dwight isn't the offensive power Shaq was. Shaq is a once in a century player. I just used Shaq as an example because noone has dominated the paint like Howard does since Shaq.

My point is NO HE DOESN'T "DOMINATE" he doesn't know how... if he did the NBA Finals is not DOMINATED by the LA front line last year.

mikantsass
04-02-2010, 12:44 PM
If you a starting a franchise you have to look at the business aspect too. Dwight is more marketable and puts more fans in the seats. I think he is proven to be a top 3 guy in the league when it comes to marketability. Look at his dunk contest appearances and TMobile ads....

macc
04-02-2010, 12:51 PM
[QUOTE=macc;12772378]

My point is NO HE DOESN'T "DOMINATE" he doesn't know how... if he did the NBA Finals is not DOMINATED by the LA front line last year.

Are you saying Dwight Howard doesn't dominate the paint? So his league high fg% means nothing to you then. As well as leading the league in rebounds and blocks and holding players to the lowest fg% at the rim, which Orlando is # 1 in the league in as well. Look it up.

So you're saying he doesn't know how to dominate....hmmm interesting.

Eagles4Lyfe
04-02-2010, 12:56 PM
i would be so tempted to say kevin durant because hes going to be really amazing in this league..But im going to have to say dwight howard as it starts down low with an amazing center with 2 way capabilities then you build up

$ NyC $
04-02-2010, 12:56 PM
Durant is amazing but I would have to go with Dwight as the anchor to my franchise. Durant is exceptional on offense and his defense is improving but the thing with Dwight is that even if he was off offensively, he can still contribute and dominate defensively. He'll struggle and get 12 points but he can still get you 15 rebounds and 3 blocks.

Durant is an offensive power-house but take that away from him, he will still contribute, but not in as many ways as Howard can.

BOSTON617
04-02-2010, 01:03 PM
closer then i tough i picked kd he is to good and he is one of a kind player

Ray_R
04-02-2010, 01:13 PM
D.Howard becuase hes defense is so good and that he is a big man. He can also imporve on his offense which he has.

Quikdraw
04-02-2010, 01:37 PM
Durant.

Baller1
04-02-2010, 02:53 PM
That is the key to this debate. I'm not taking anything from Durrant. He's a great player. But you can get your Durrant at your local Wal Mart. To find a Dwight Howard you have to look through somones private collection.

I really hope your kidding.

blah-blah
04-02-2010, 03:13 PM
dwight howard its hard to find an athletic centre who plays defense and is dominant under the basket

tredigs
04-02-2010, 03:31 PM
That is the key to this debate. I'm not taking anything from Durrant. He's a great player. But you can get your Durrant at your local Wal Mart. To find a Dwight Howard you have to look through somones private collection.

And this is where we disagree. I feel like you're overvaluing Dwight, and undervaluing KD. If you're offering me prime Shaq or Prime Duncan over this 21 year old Durant?... Then sure, give me the big! But not D. Howard. Just because we've seen an influx of insanely talented wings in the past decade, does not mean that they're the norm.

You can't ignore the fact that D. Howard --even as the best big in the league the past few years-- (which would not have been the case at all had the players of a decade ago been in their prime now) even having a strong supporting cast, has not been able to win a ring.

So look at it this way; I think that if Durant and the Thunder have Carlos Boozer / Pau Gasol / D. Howard / Andrew Bogut / Tim Duncan / Chris Bosh and possibly even next years version of Brook Lopez, then next year they would be immediate title contenders. That six or seven bigs off the top of my head, in an insanely depleted big league (which I expect to change soon, which is why I'm choosing Durant), where as if this were the 90's I would have at least 10 bigs to choose from.

The only wing / player in general I would take over Durant at this point (given his age/upside) is Lebron James. I would contemplate Wade, but he's 28. Kobe's 32 and you wouldn't even think about taking him being that Durant had a better year than him already as a 21 yr old.

So all things said, although D. Howard is currently the best big in the league (and his defense absolutely can't be ignored), I think that a player of Durant's caliber; as a 22-30 year old, could win a ring with a multitude of other bigs. I don't think Dwight as he currently is (maybe his offensive game grows more, but I think that it is probably nearing its peak, and I think that other bigs are going to start coming in and catching up) is more valuable than a 21 year old KD.


Good argument tho' macc, besides the stupid wall mart statement I quoted, I'm respecting your opinion a good deal on Dwight.

D-Will4Prez
04-02-2010, 03:32 PM
I would normally take KD but great big men are very hard to come by these days...I'd have to go with Superman on this one.

tredigs
04-02-2010, 04:06 PM
Durant is young so people are ready jump the wagon and say he's this and that, Lebron was putting up better numbers than KD at 21 and his numbers look very similar since... Who's to say he gets that much better?

Like I said, Dwight Howard is this generation's Bill Russell (with more offensive firepower) and Kevin Durant is this generation's Tracy McGrady (with less playmaking abilities, but better defense), now you tell me, who would you take?

Comparing him to a top 5 defensive player / top competitor of all time and saying that he has better offensive game is beyond a stretch Raph. Until Dwight develops a passing game from the post (which he probably won't) and develops better handles (which he probably won't), his offensive game is going to be very limited. He can dunk, and has a couple post moves that him and Ewing have been working on (that little running lefty hook is nice when it drops), but he's very, very limited.

I would say that he's a poor man's version of David Robinson in his prime (he does pull more boards than D-Rob, but you also have to factor in the players that he was going against being much better rebounders than today's game). Robinson was as good or better defensively, and better offensively.

Dwight absolutely still has time to grow --he's still young-- but let's take a step back on how high you're rating him just for the sake of argument.

and macc I responded to ya on the last page if you want to check that out.

pacofunk64
04-02-2010, 04:23 PM
Wow I just broke the tie...didn't expect to be this tight. It was very tough but like a lot of people have said...more difficult to find quality big men then wing men. So that's what I went off.

masalex1205
04-02-2010, 04:27 PM
good question but I'd take KD 10 out of 10

I understand that Centers are rare these days but Dwight's offense is limited. KD is only 21 years old and his attitude has infected the entire OKC organization. When it comes down to it, KD affects a team more than Dwight imo.

For example, imagine putting Dwight on the Thunder, theyd suck a lot. Imagine KD being on the Magic, I don't think they'd hurt that much b/c they've got Gortat

JordansBulls
04-02-2010, 04:46 PM
How is this that close?

alencp3
04-02-2010, 05:09 PM
Durant because he is just amazing skinny kid.

SteveNash
04-02-2010, 05:40 PM
Howard clearly.

macc
04-02-2010, 06:26 PM
And this is where we disagree. I feel like you're overvaluing Dwight, and undervaluing KD. If you're offering me prime Shaq or Prime Duncan over this 21 year old Durant?... Then sure, give me the big! But not D. Howard. Just because we've seen an influx of insanely talented wings in the past decade, does not mean that they're the norm.

You can't ignore the fact that D. Howard --even as the best big in the league the past few years-- (which would not have been the case at all had the players of a decade ago been in their prime now) even having a strong supporting cast, has not been able to win a ring.

So look at it this way; I think that if Durant and the Thunder have Carlos Boozer / Pau Gasol / D. Howard / Andrew Bogut / Tim Duncan / Chris Bosh and possibly even next years version of Brook Lopez, then next year they would be immediate title contenders. That six or seven bigs off the top of my head, in an insanely depleted big league (which I expect to change soon, which is why I'm choosing Durant), where as if this were the 90's I would have at least 10 bigs to choose from.

The only wing / player in general I would take over Durant at this point (given his age/upside) is Lebron James. I would contemplate Wade, but he's 28. Kobe's 32 and you wouldn't even think about taking him being that Durant had a better year than him already as a 21 yr old.

So all things said, although D. Howard is currently the best big in the league (and his defense absolutely can't be ignored), I think that a player of Durant's caliber; as a 22-30 year old, could win a ring with a multitude of other bigs. I don't think Dwight as he currently is (maybe his offensive game grows more, but I think that it is probably nearing its peak, and I think that other bigs are going to start coming in and catching up) is more valuable than a 21 year old KD.


Good argument tho' macc, besides the stupid wall mart statement I quoted, I'm respecting your opinion a good deal on Dwight.



Fair enough. Its def a good debate though. My only beef with KD is that hes only been in the league 3 years and people are putting him in the top 5 when he's never won a series or even a playoff game. I'm not saying he's not capable of it but call me old school because I would like to see somone earn their stripes a bit before I call them one of the elite.

I would also like to see a guy earn his stripes before I'm comparing him to guys like Dwight Howard who have proven that they are a force and have won multiple playoff series and have been in the finals.

I remember when people jumped on the T Mac bandwagon. He was arguablly a top 2-3 player in the league at one point. In his prime he had better numbers than Kobe. As soon as people started seeing that T Mac wasn't getting past the first round, that's all that people knew him for. So all his greatness/scoring titles/stats meant nothing because he wasn't winning series. Durrant is similiar to me. I don't see Oklahoma City winning a playoff series this year. I could be wrong but I don't see it.

I mean even a young Lebron took an inferior Cavs team to the finals. That proved that Lebron was something special. Lets see if Durrant can do somthing similiar.

You and I both know basketball and the thing people are remembered for isn't how many scoring titles they won. Its about what they did in the playoffs or how many championships they've won. PPG has nothing on championships or playoff series wins.

I have to say I disagree with the fact that you say you put Durrant with Bynum (not even close), Boozer, Bosh (maybe), Lopez (not even close), Bogut (not even close) and his team is a title contender. Outside of Bosh I just don't see it. The league is tooo deep and talented to be a contender that easily.

In the end we'll just agree to disagree. When Durrant is winning playoff series. Averaging more assists while making his teammates better then I'll consider the debate, but right now he's no further in the league than T Mac ever was. People love Durrant now but if he doesn't win, it won't matter how many points he scores, people will turn on him as fast as they did T Mac. Just how NBA fans are.

tredigs
04-02-2010, 06:49 PM
Fair enough. Its def a good debate though. My only beef with KD is that hes only been in the league 3 years and people are putting him in the top 5 when he's never won a series or even a playoff game. I'm not saying he's not capable of it but call me old school because I would like to see somone earn their stripes a bit before I call them one of the elite.

I would also like to see a guy earn his stripes before I'm comparing him to guys like Dwight Howard who have proven that they are a force and have won multiple playoff series and have been in the finals.

I remember when people jumped on the T Mac bandwagon. He was arguablly a top 2-3 player in the league at one point. In his prime he had better numbers than Kobe. As soon as people started seeing that T Mac wasn't getting past the first round, that's all that people knew him for. So all his greatness/scoring titles/stats meant nothing because he wasn't winning series. Durrant is similiar to me. I don't see Oklahoma City winning a playoff series this year. I could be wrong but I don't see it.

I mean even a young Lebron took an inferior Cavs team to the finals. That proved that Lebron was something special. Lets see if Durrant can do somthing similiar.

You and I both know basketball and the thing people are remembered for isn't how many scoring titles they won. Its about what they did in the playoffs or how many championships they've won. PPG has nothing on championships or playoff series wins.

I have to say I disagree with the fact that you say you put Durrant with Bynum (not even close), Boozer, Bosh (maybe), Lopez (not even close), Bogut (not even close) and his team is a title contender. Outside of Bosh I just don't see it. The league is tooo deep and talented to be a contender that easily.

In the end we'll just agree to disagree. When Durrant is winning playoff series. Averaging more assists while making his teammates better then I'll consider the debate, but right now he's no further in the league than T Mac ever was. People love Durrant now but if he doesn't win, it won't matter how many points he scores, people will turn on him as fast as they did T Mac. Just how NBA fans are.

Well I didn't say Bynum, and I disagree that Bogut wouldn't make them a contender next season. He's become an elite big. And I'm pretty high on Brook Lopez' up side, though I know that that one is a stretch as of right now.

And agreed about earning your stripes before you're considered a top 3-5 level of player. I think he has to do this before I'd put him there as well. In comparing to Lebron though, we'd have to acknowledge that while what he did so early was amazing, it was his 4th year in the league that he was able to anchor them to the finals, and this was in a much weaker conference than what KD and the Thunder are facing, so there's a bit of breathing room there.

The reason I pick him over Dwight is because I see all the skills that I saw in a player like T-Mac, but with a better shot, better work ethic and just a kid that seems more eager to learn/help his teammates (regardless of assist totals; there's a lot more that goes into both an assist total, and being a great teammate imo).

Remember, this isn't for this year, this is who you'd build a team around. Me choosing Durant here would be as much about intangibles (work ethic / loyalty to the team, etc, ability to improve over the summer) and upside (21, already made himself an upper tier defender in a matter of two years, etc) as it is about what he's done in the league thus far.

Durant's the riskier pick, but for the sake of this argument, that's who I'd go with. Now I'll let the cards fall how they may and watch these two light it up for a decade, we can revisit this then and see who was right. Might not be a wrong answer.

GSW Hoops
04-03-2010, 12:18 AM
I think Dwight is a great big man, but he can't take over a game offensively like Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, Duncan or other great big men. He's a great defender and super athletic, but he just isn't the dominant force I think he could be.

Durant, on the other hand, is a stud and he's only 21. Scary to think how good he'll be in 3-4 years...

*Superman*
04-03-2010, 12:23 AM
Dwight 44

Durant 43.

That's how it should be imo, close.

Fire&Ice2&33
04-03-2010, 12:44 AM
I would take KD35! Durant has a crazy offensive game and only been playing a couple years! Howard still has to work on his offense

jackdawson
04-03-2010, 12:54 AM
Kevin Durant. Young, more talented, and already a better player although he is 3/4 years younger than dwight. I like dwight's D, but you can't make him your offensive focal point, he is no shaq.

jackdawson
04-03-2010, 01:00 AM
Comparing him to a top 5 defensive player / top competitor of all time and saying that he has better offensive game is beyond a stretch Raph. Until Dwight develops a passing game from the post (which he probably won't) and develops better handles (which he probably won't), his offensive game is going to be very limited. He can dunk, and has a couple post moves that him and Ewing have been working on (that little running lefty hook is nice when it drops), but he's very, very limited.

I would say that he's a poor man's version of David Robinson in his prime (he does pull more boards than D-Rob, but you also have to factor in the players that he was going against being much better rebounders than today's game). Robinson was as good or better defensively, and better offensively.

Dwight absolutely still has time to grow --he's still young-- but let's take a step back on how high you're rating him just for the sake of argument.

and macc I responded to ya on the last page if you want to check that out.


Dont waste your time behind blind and ridiculous opinions. "Dwight is this generation's Bill Russell" just made laugh.

evadatam5150
04-03-2010, 02:24 AM
If you were starting a franchise TODAY, who would you take: Dwight Howard or Kevin Durant?

Not tough at all.. A legit superstar big is a rare commodity in the NBA these days.. Howard is one of a those rare birds where Durant types are a dime a dozen.. There are plenty of scorers who don't play a lot of defense.. Durant scores a lot but doesn't do much else..

Easy choice here..

evadatam5150
04-03-2010, 02:26 AM
Normally I would say the dominant big man because wings are normally easy to get, but Durant is one of the exceptions. The kid is a freak.

If by freak you mean shoots the ball every time he touches the ball then yes I agree, he;s a freak.. ;)

ldc62
04-03-2010, 05:37 AM
And this is where we disagree. I feel like you're overvaluing Dwight, and undervaluing KD. If you're offering me prime Shaq or Prime Duncan over this 21 year old Durant?... Then sure, give me the big! But not D. Howard. Just because we've seen an influx of insanely talented wings in the past decade, does not mean that they're the norm.

You can't ignore the fact that D. Howard --even as the best big in the league the past few years-- (which would not have been the case at all had the players of a decade ago been in their prime now) even having a strong supporting cast, has not been able to win a ring.

So look at it this way; I think that if Durant and the Thunder have Carlos Boozer / Pau Gasol / D. Howard / Andrew Bogut / Tim Duncan / Chris Bosh and possibly even next years version of Brook Lopez, then next year they would be immediate title contenders. That six or seven bigs off the top of my head, in an insanely depleted big league (which I expect to change soon, which is why I'm choosing Durant), where as if this were the 90's I would have at least 10 bigs to choose from.

The only wing / player in general I would take over Durant at this point (given his age/upside) is Lebron James. I would contemplate Wade, but he's 28. Kobe's 32 and you wouldn't even think about taking him being that Durant had a better year than him already as a 21 yr old.

So all things said, although D. Howard is currently the best big in the league (and his defense absolutely can't be ignored), I think that a player of Durant's caliber; as a 22-30 year old, could win a ring with a multitude of other bigs. I don't think Dwight as he currently is (maybe his offensive game grows more, but I think that it is probably nearing its peak, and I think that other bigs are going to start coming in and catching up) is more valuable than a 21 year old KD.




:clap:

alencp3
04-03-2010, 06:25 PM
How is this that close?

Oh what,ur scared that LeBron will overcome Jordan thats why u make thread about howard>bron and now saying this shouldnt be close?!
Come on!:eyebrow:

BigEric
04-03-2010, 06:29 PM
The big man.

thedfactor
04-03-2010, 06:47 PM
Durant

Raidaz4Life
04-03-2010, 06:49 PM
Durant Baby!!!

td0tsfinest
04-03-2010, 07:00 PM
i got to say that this is a hard choice. While KD gives you the offensive power you want from your #1 guy, Dwight Howard gives you everything you want on the defensive end.

I've always firmly believed in defense bringing in championships, so I'm going to say Dwight.

pacofunk64
04-07-2010, 12:31 PM
Ok someone needs to come in & break the tie...we can't have a tie.

footballer2369
04-07-2010, 12:54 PM
Dwight Howard's "dominance" vs the Heat this year:

4gp- 31.5 mpg, 11.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 40.6 fg%, 2.25 bpg, 2.8 tpg, 55.55 ft%

vs SA
2gp- 9 ppg, 6 rpg

give me Durant. Dwight is the least dominant "dominant" player I've ever seen.

GSW Hoops
04-07-2010, 01:00 PM
I went with KD. He's a one-of-a-kind, and he's only a young pup! He's going to dominate this league for a LONG time.

ballpd05
04-07-2010, 01:08 PM
KD because he is a special talent that you can build a playoff team around. KD and number of role players and can be a solid playoff team. KD will be able to create offense for those who cannot do it on their own. Finding role players/specialists are easier and cheaper (good defenders, spot up shooters, pass first guys, shot blockers, and rebounders) than another playmaker/scorer.

I feel like while Dwight can take a good team to elite by adding him. I don't think by himself you can take a bad team and make them good because you cannot rely on him to create offense consistently for himself or others who cannot do it on their own.

If you already have a good perimeter playmaker than I think Howard can take a team from ok to really, really good. Without that though I think Dwight Howard would just be a dominant force on a team that you only need 85 points to beat.

So if I had an expansion team that started tomorrow I would take KD.

Ty Fast
04-07-2010, 01:22 PM
Durant, but it is very close

sep11ie
04-07-2010, 01:25 PM
You should share your secret stash with the league...

I don't think his stash consists of centers.

pebloemer
04-07-2010, 01:30 PM
Gotta be Dwight for me.

The difference between Dwight and opponent's C's that he's playing against will likely be bigger than the difference between Durant and the opponent's SF's he is playing against.

tbomlad
04-07-2010, 01:40 PM
Easy, Superman. No doubt!

tbomlad
04-07-2010, 01:45 PM
If this poll was taken by NBA coaches I guarantee Dwight would win easily. This is actually a no-brainer.

tredigs
04-07-2010, 01:46 PM
I've made my decision. I think D-Howard is going to be caught up to at the Center position in the next few years, and won't be able to keep up the dominance he's been afforded (leaving more available bigs to win with). And although I like KD as a player much more, with the fact that he's 4 years younger than Dwight not being ignored, I've decided to take both.

And the 2011-2020 NBA Championships.

Make it happen... Warriors! ; ]

Anon
04-07-2010, 01:55 PM
It is amazing to me how hard it is even for avid NBA fans to understand the defensive impact Howard has on the game. The Magic are currently tied for 1st in the NBA in defensive efficiency. That is with a starting lineup of Jameer, VC, Matt Barnes, and Rashard only one of which is a remotely effective defensive player. In other words if you put Howard on any team in the NBA they will be a top 5 defensive team overnight. I guess since that isn't captured in a box score it isn't appreciated as much as PPG.

Raph12
04-07-2010, 02:06 PM
I've made my decision. I think D-Howard is going to be caught up to at the Center position in the next few years, and won't be able to keep up the dominance he's been afforded (leaving more available bigs to win with). And although I like KD as a player much more, with the fact that he's 4 years younger than Dwight not being ignored, I've decided to take both.

And the 2011-2020 NBA Championships.

Make it happen... Warriors! ; ]

Huh? :confused:

RadiantShot
04-07-2010, 02:17 PM
50/50. I want to see Kevin Durant on a true-contender (Don't say he's already on one.) before I can make my decision. Howard's anchoring the defense. He's the best center, along with being the best defender by a mile in the league. On the other hand, you have Kevin Durant, who's the complete opposite, except you're changing the topic from defense to offense. If I want to START a Franchise, I'll go with Dwight. If I'm looking for offense, go with Kevin.

jmtapia
04-07-2010, 02:34 PM
50/50. I want to see Kevin Durant on a true-contender (Don't say he's already on one.) before I can make my decision. Howard's anchoring the defense. He's the best center, along with being the best defender by a mile in the league. On the other hand, you have Kevin Durant, who's the complete opposite, except you're changing the topic from defense to offense. If I want to START a Franchise, I'll go with Dwight. If I'm looking for offense, go with Kevin.

thing about Dwight is that he is effective on both sides of the ball. His defense is great but he also puts up close to 20 pts/g.

RadiantShot
04-07-2010, 02:40 PM
thing about Dwight is that he is effective on both sides of the ball. His defense is great but he also puts up close to 20 pts/g.

I know. Don't get me wrong. Haha. I'm a Magic fan too, so the automatic choice would be picking Dwight. I would pick Dwight for the most part, but there are things that Durant does better, and vice versa.

tredigs
04-07-2010, 02:48 PM
thing about Dwight is that he is effective on both sides of the ball. His defense is great but he also puts up close to 20 pts/g.

The thing that people don't realize yet about Durant is that he's done a 180 on the defensive side of the floor. He went from a defensive liability to an upper tier wing defender in the matter of one off-season [I don't know if the more impressive part is that he's now upper tier defensively, or that he can make this big of a change in his game over one summer].

For those who don't watch him nightly and get to see it here's a few stats.
He's 6th in the league in defensive win shares behind Howard, G Wallace, Lebron, Bogut and J Smoove.
His ''opponents production'' stat http://www.82games.com/0910/0910OKC.HTM is also lower than everybody in the league who plays more than 10mpg, bar none. That includes Lebron, G-Wallace, Kobe, Howard, etc.

Not to mention that he is second in the league in offensive and overall win shares only to Lebron and leads the league in scoring, all while being guarded closer than anyone in the league. Nobody gets man-marked/doubled like KD. Nobody. It is insane.

...Did we mention he's only 21? ...We mentioned that right? ... ; ]

RadiantShot
04-07-2010, 02:52 PM
^
..Yes.
You mentioned.

ElMarroAfamado
04-07-2010, 02:58 PM
KD. i can find me a decent Center. but KD is to versatile.

really?
a decent center where?

GSW Hoops
04-07-2010, 03:04 PM
really?
a decent center where?

Portland got one pretty cheap in Camby.

rand3h
04-07-2010, 03:07 PM
KD because he is versatile

tredigs
04-07-2010, 03:09 PM
really?
a decent center where?

Yao and Oden if they can manage to stay healthy. Camby for the time being. Joakim Noah is becoming elite defensively and showed improvement offensively before he went down. Bogut is dangerous on both ends. Brook Lopez is going to be a star in the league. We'll see how Bynum develops, he's still only 22. Then there's the draft coming up with Demarcus Cousins, Whiteside and Aldrich as all possible breakout bigs. Then there's the raw ultra athletic young big in Serge Ibaka who the Thunder already have, who if they can develop the right way might prove to be their answer. Kid's only 20.

krest213
04-07-2010, 03:28 PM
Portland got one pretty cheap in Camby.

thank you and i can rock all day with KD,andrew bynum/Kendrick Perkins/AL J/Yao..

shoot i'll take a squad like this to war with me on the hardwood anyday of the week to fight the so call kobe's the LB's the Dwights, the Dwade's

TP/ CP/G.Hill
Joe Johnson/manu
KD/Danny Granger/Battier
Chris Bosh/pau/Josh Smith
Yao/Bynum/perkins

champions for years!!!!

jackdawson
04-07-2010, 03:35 PM
Nice!! KD with the lead now! and rightfully so.

macc
04-07-2010, 03:39 PM
Nice!! KD with the lead now! and rightfully so.



:facepalm:


I like whoever said that if the coaches voted for this, it wouldn't even be close. Dwight all day. Defense and big men win championships. Look it up.

mcgswfan
04-07-2010, 03:40 PM
Right now it's Howard bar none. Ever heard the phrase "offense sells tickets but defense wins championships"? Even though Howard lost in the NBA Finals last year, the biggest point and strongest argument for my choice is that his team lost to the Lakers who have more and/or better big men than Orlando does. Ask every GM in the league who they would start a franchise with and I guarantee that 90% of them will say, you start a franchise with the once-in-a-decade "big man" that enters the league. Couple that with the fact that Howard took Orlando to the NBA Finals at the young age of 22 (23 if he has an early birthday. I don't know when his birthday is). Durant is 21 now, if he can get OKC to the NBA Finals before Howard did, then I'll take it all back and say I was grossly wrong in my choice. But I don't see that happening.

SteveNash
04-07-2010, 03:46 PM
KD because he is a special talent that you can build a playoff team around. KD and number of role players and can be a solid playoff team. KD will be able to create offense for those who cannot do it on their own. Finding role players/specialists are easier and cheaper (good defenders, spot up shooters, pass first guys, shot blockers, and rebounders) than another playmaker/scorer.

I feel like while Dwight can take a good team to elite by adding him. I don't think by himself you can take a bad team and make them good because you cannot rely on him to create offense consistently for himself or others who cannot do it on their own.

If you already have a good perimeter playmaker than I think Howard can take a team from ok to really, really good. Without that though I think Dwight Howard would just be a dominant force on a team that you only need 85 points to beat.

So if I had an expansion team that started tomorrow I would take KD.

Durant is a special talent that you can build a playoff team around? The same Durant that led his team to low 20s win totals, and finally became a "winner" once Westbrook got better and became the team leader, once Thabo came to shore up Durant's horrible defensive ability, Krstic came back over, and Harden to boost the bench.

And Durant creating for others? Is that some sort of a joke?

tredigs
04-07-2010, 04:09 PM
^I am convinced that you are the most consistently "fail" of a poster on PSD, Nash. When I take a stand on something and you vehemently disagree, I know that I am 100% correct.

The perfect barometer.

ManningToTyree
04-07-2010, 04:13 PM
Durantula

Raph12
04-07-2010, 04:29 PM
^^^Did SteveNash just say he'd choose Dwight (his 10mpg center behind the Diesal) over Kevin Durant?... I guess that make KD worse than Shaq lol.

Although I disagree with Nash everytime we've ever talked, I do think this is an open-and-shut case. Dwight should've blown this out of the water IMO.

bigsams50
04-07-2010, 04:50 PM
D12

GSW Hoops
04-07-2010, 04:51 PM
:facepalm:


I like whoever said that if the coaches voted for this, it wouldn't even be close. Dwight all day. Defense and big men win championships. Look it up.

MJ and Pippen didn't have dominant big men (unless you count Luc Longley) and they did pretty well for themselves :)

RadiantShot
04-07-2010, 05:08 PM
Yao and Oden if they can manage to stay healthy. Camby for the time being. Joakim Noah is becoming elite defensively and showed improvement offensively before he went down. Bogut is dangerous on both ends. Brook Lopez is going to be a star in the league. We'll see how Bynum develops, he's still only 22. Then there's the draft coming up with Demarcus Cousins, Whiteside and Aldrich as all possible breakout bigs. Then there's the raw ultra athletic young big in Serge Ibaka who the Thunder already have, who if they can develop the right way might prove to be their answer. Kid's only 20.

The next time someone says Dwight has no competition in the league, I'm quoting you on this post, just for the fact he gets crucified for playing against, 'softies,' While putting up tremendous numbers.

blastmasta26
04-07-2010, 05:42 PM
Dwight. I think it is easier to build around a dominant big like Dwight, especially since he can mask some defensive deficiencies. Durant's a great scorer, but it's easy to find guys that can score well. I'm not saying it's easy to find guys with the talent of Durant, but it's easy to find scorers to complement a big like Dwight.

Knucklz
04-07-2010, 05:45 PM
Durant

tredigs
04-07-2010, 06:07 PM
He really doesn't, radiant. Maybe one out of every 8-10 games he has decent competition. As of right now, the league is still insanely weak overall at center. What I'm saying is that in the near future, there's a good chance he will indeed have those challengers. And if he does, then I will take the 21 year old Durant to start my franchise every time. If the competition doesn't develop like I think it will, then the choice may be Dwight. Although I really think Durant is going to be a very, very special player. And I refuse to be the one who said he wouldn't take him over the big-de-jour 10 years from now.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-07-2010, 06:07 PM
dwight.

koreancabbage
04-07-2010, 07:08 PM
offense vs defense, a pretty good example.

you could go either way but we all know defense wins championships....if you could score enough points.

RadiantShot
04-07-2010, 07:18 PM
There's really no going back from the other statement. You are the weakest link. Goodbye.

tredigs
04-07-2010, 07:26 PM
The other statement stands, Radiant. If you're incapable of comprehending what I was inferring, and how in no way I said that the league is strong at center right now (you'd have to be an idiot to think so), then that's on you bud. Get a reading comprehension coach or something, I don't know what to tell you.

RadiantShot
04-07-2010, 07:44 PM
Ever heard of sarcasm?
Obviously not.

tredigs
04-07-2010, 08:16 PM
Too used to Raph. We don't joke when it comes to KD and Dwight ; ]

jackdawson
04-07-2010, 08:21 PM
:facepalm:


I like whoever said that if the coaches voted for this, it wouldn't even be close. Dwight all day. Defense and big men win championships. Look it up.



You misused the :facepalm: son. So here goes some for you because you deserved it badly.
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

True "defense and big men" win championsips, but dwight is a ****ing non-factor on the offense. He is no shaq, he is no Timmy. When the **** are you homers gonna realize that??? Dwight already has played 6 years in the league and players almost usually hit their prime by that period or their improvements are pretty much done by that period. Durant is ****ing 4 years younger than him and already a better player. Can you imagine where he will be standing 4 years from now? This is going to be Lebron-Durant's league for next 10 years. Starting a franchise? Gimme Lebron. Not available? Then gimme Durant. Then comes the rest. PERIOD.

RadiantShot
04-07-2010, 08:34 PM
He's a non-factor on offense, yet he's averaging 18.3 PPG. I'm tired of hearing people say he's not good on offense. You definitely have no clue whatsoever what in the hell you are talking about. He's top 13 in PPG this season. You can't say he's a 'non-factor' it just doesn't make sense. He's anchoring both offense & defense while getting called for ticky-tacky fouls. On top of that, his FT% is horrid, which could boost his stats up even more.

People knock on Dwight all the time for not being an offensive threat, well, you know what..Dwight's the best defender in the league, and it's not even close. What you fail to realize is, "Defense wins championships." That's what you're missing. He doesn't NEED to be a 25-30 PPG player, but I assure you, he could easily be. He doesn't get nearly as many touches needed to get those stats, and it's easily provable. Why would he or anyone else average 25-30 PPG with the arguably the deepest team in the league full of 3-Point threats and scorers?

This isn't very hard to understand. Us Magic Fans, or "You guys" as you called it, don't need to realize anything. Everything's right in front of our face. The facts are there. Without Dwight, We'd drop a ton defensively, while also managing to lose some offensive production. And so what if, "Most people reach their prime by that time." Who cares? Dwight's not "Most people." Something I should throw out : Dwight's going to have his 2nd DPOY this year, and it's not even close. That's 2 DPOYs, and 2 consecutive years of leading in the NBA in FG%, Blocks, & Rebounds. Name someone who's done that please. He's anchored an Orlando Magic team from decent to championship material in the matter of a few seasons. He led a team without Jameer Nelson to the finals. Think before you speak. Need I say more?

basketfan4life
04-07-2010, 08:35 PM
you are thinking the wrong way, and here is the fact..i'll go with howard in a hearth beat.because i can find one player that can compliment dwight as a wing,lots of good wings,may be most of them are worse than durant but it is going to be enough if you have howard,lets call it brandon roy or joe johnson.

but if you pick durant you can't find a player even remotely close to dwight because that doen't exist.(if you think durant is jordon good,or even kobe good,than its ok)

runforrestrunx9
04-07-2010, 09:02 PM
howard just cuz his position is harder 2 fill

jackdawson
04-07-2010, 09:14 PM
Too bad he is still not enough to win a championship with the deepest line up in the league. I have seen him closely in four matches against JO and Joel Anthony this year plus in other big matches. If you saw those games, I hope I don't need to elaborate more why I said he is a non-factor on the offensive end. Now think about Durant's supporting cast and what he has done with it in the freaking crazy West. Enough with "it's not even close." This doesn't sound good over and over again. I can see it's only helping Dwight becoming PSD's new Derrick Rose because of homers. The fact that Durant is younger, versatile, and already a better player gives him the edge to start a franchise. To me it's always LeBron, Durant for that matter. Then again these are all our opinions and they vary from persons to persons. Now I won't lose my sleep for that.

RadiantShot
04-07-2010, 09:49 PM
Okay. 5-7 times this season Dwight Howard has been completely shut down. Every star has an off night. It's really not that big of a deal. The fact still stands that he's the best defensive player in the league, and he's the best offensive player on this team, averaging the most points to seal it. And that's pretty stupid, well, the statement, "He still hasn't won a ring with the deepest line up in the league." This is pretty much the first year we have a really deep lineup. Last year, we didn't have half the players we do now. We added Carter, Barnes, Bass, Anderson, re-signed Gortat, have Jameer back, got rid of Alston, Battie, Lee, and Hedo. Our team has a whole new look now. It's not the same as last year.

You can't say, "The fact he still doesn't have a ring yet." He's young. Shaq didn't win his first ring until he was what? 26? Dwight's still got a long time to go. Why hasn't Lebron won a Championship yet? Are you saying that he's not good on offense either? Puhh-Leaze. Many greats in the NBA, and all time, for that matter didn't win a ring until a little bit later. Dwight's still REALLY young. By no means would I even have thought he'd be in a position to win a ring, and he is already anchoring a team to do exactly that. And I don't blame Durant for averaging a high PPG. He needs to. Look who he has. They aren't true contenders yet. He's the only reason they're doing remotely well, so he NEEDS to score. Dwight doesn't NEED to score, by any means at all. Durant doesn't have a deep lineup like the Magic do. I guarantee if Lebron or Kevin were in Orlando, they'd average 5-7 less PPG than they do right now, just for the fact Orlando's so deep, and everyone needs more touches.

You need to stop being so stubborn, and see what I'm saying. Dwight doesn't need to be an offensive threat. He's already got good offensive numbers, and the best defense in the league. Let that be enough.

tredigs
04-07-2010, 11:23 PM
Radiant -- Dwight's 28th in the league in PPG scoring, not "top 13". And the fact that his FT shooting is horrible even though he consistently shoots among the most attempts every season is not something that you can say, "if it was better he'd score more". Yeah, no ****. It's a huge hole in his game --among many holes in his offensive game-- and something that other teams exploit. It's a major reason why people discredit him offensively. It would be a different story if he could dominate with overpowering low post moves and had a solid post-passing game, but he doesn't/can't. Simply put, at the skill level he is right now, he absolutely couldn't average 25-30 ppg, if he could he would have.

Him and Durant shoot virtually the same number of free throws a game, yet Durant is a 90% shooter from the line, which is the reason why he's made more free throws than any other player in the last 20 years. Bottom line, he's less polished as a 25 year old than Durant is as a 21 year old. The upside for Durant is off the charts, the upside for Dwight is limited, it's looking like he has probably reached his near max. We haven't seen any statistical improvement in a couple of years now. Sure he's added a couple halfway decent post moves, but that's about it. Once again -- give me the current and rising superstar over the limited big.

Ssshbliblibl00p
04-08-2010, 12:46 AM
if you were starting a franchise today, who would you take: Dwight howard or kevin durant?

yes

Raph12
04-08-2010, 12:53 AM
So Dwight's reached his max, while Durant's on the rise... :rolleyes:

Reality check, if Dwight leads the league in rebounds, blocks, drating, dwin shares and FG%, and wins DPOY while leading his team to a Top 3 record with a very respectable playoffs showing for the next 5+ years, Dwight will go down as one of the best centers of all-time to ever play the game.

He is so above-and-beyond everyone in this league on the defensive end, that he should have the elite status just based on his defensive impact alone. He isn't a good passer, FT shooter and has limited post moves, I'm tired of hearing this bs... Durant isn't a good slasher, passer nor does he have a good postgame, he can shoot lights out and play above-avg defense, OMG sounds like a once in a generation type guy... NOT! Tmac, Kobe, Melo, Lebron, Roy, Wade, Granger, w/e, Durant is great for his age, but isn't doing something that wows me, Lebron went for 31-7-7 when he was 21yrs old.

Dwight plays exceptional defense, grabs every rebound and scores the basketball with ease, whether that be off a pass or created by himself. To say he's too limited is just plain stupid, Lebron still doesn't have a decent jumper, nor does he play good man-defense, doesn't mean because his game is still limited, he isn't the best (arguably) player in the league. Dwight's offensive rating is 112 pretty good when compared to most other great players: Durant (117), Wade (113), Melo (110), Kobe (109), etc... Dwight takes less shots because with all the offensive talent on his team, they would play better if the ball is moved around and they have a more balanced offensive attack, instead of having him just dominate the ball all game. He scores the ball at over 60.5% (1st in the league), most of his turnovers come off moving screens, players flopping and even sometimes off of 3 secs in the key, looking at those to numbers, you'd think Dwight's a bad passer, but if you watch him as much as I do, you learn quickly that's not the case.

His FTs are inconsistent, he's had nights where he goes 2-11 and nights where he goes 14-16, he says it's a mind thing, so I figure it'll get better down the line. His offensive moves are there, he continues to work on his game and it shows, but the fact that the Magic have so many options, you don't get to see as much from Dwight and the thing is, you may never see it until he's forced to just dominate the ball because of the lack of help.

I'm really starting to like Durant after watching him play more, but I'm finding it hard to say anything positive about him when you discredit Dwight by saying he's not that good and the rest of the centers will "catch" him. Then go on to say Durant's going to be so special and make history, etc... I'm done talking about this, I'm just going to walk away from it and let you guys blab on about w/e it is you think makes Dwight so limited and KD so unstoppable.

tredigs
04-08-2010, 01:16 AM
hah, for what it's worth Raphy, I absolutely love Dwight and am only exploiting his weaknesses for the sake of argument. But the fact that only Lebron "The Future Of The NBA" James is the only person as a 3rd year 21 year old to put up slightly better numbers than KD (and not in all areas by any means. Only better in passing, actually. While KD owns him in a few categories) while obtaining the same level of team success is very telling of his potential. Add to that his dedication and willingness to be a great teammate, and THAT is why I think he will be such a success as far as championships go.

I'll leave it at that --

jackdawson
04-08-2010, 02:10 AM
"Radiant, Dwight's 28th in the league in PPG scoring, not 'top 13'."-----tredigs.

Please explain tredigs' statement. Dwight actually is #32 in ppg scoring as of now. When was he "top 13"?? (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Scoring.jsp)


"I guarantee Lebron or Durant would average 5/7 points less in this magic team."

Really???? How??? Lebron averaged about 30 ppg with scrubs past couple of years. In fact, he averaged 28 ish ppg last year. Cleveland got deeper than any of their teams in last decade. How did that make Lebron score less??? Is he not averaging 30 ppg now? Where is your point, sir??

I have a final statement. When I would start my franchise, my first and foremost goal would be winning.

Let's put it this way--game on the line. Who'd you go with, Dwight or Durant? There is your answer. You foul Dwight if not anything, and you are almost sure that he is not making two FTs. So, he is virtually useless when you need 2 points to tie a game in the last seconds. Opponents definitely wouldn't take similar tactics with Durant on the board. Why wouldn't I start my franchise with someone who is younger, versatile, already a better player, and a surefire superstar over a defensive specialist big-man who's shown his ability after 6 years of developement?

Anon
04-08-2010, 06:23 AM
Howard's Defense > Durant's Offense
Howard's Offense > Durant's Defense

KG21
04-08-2010, 06:59 AM
Howard all the way.

Have you ever heard that DEFENSE wins championships.
If you did , then the choice is so much easier.

HOWARD!

KG21
04-08-2010, 07:00 AM
We need to see Durant's skills in Playoffs so until then Durant can be second choice IMO.

And Howard as 1st

RadiantShot
04-08-2010, 09:31 AM
Sorry about the PPG. It was a simple mistake. Either way, 18.3 PPG, and anchoring the defense of a team stands out by miles. I'd rather have Dwight's stellar-unmatched defense, while still maintaining a good offense, than having Durant's stellar offense, and decent defense.

What about the Lebron comment? Yeah, he still averages a high PPG this year, but he still doesn't have as deep of a team as Orlando. His team consists of mostly defensive threats, with some decent offensive players. Mo Williams & Antawn Jamison is the only thing he sniffs on offensive production. Shaq is washed up, Varejao doesn't do much on offense, Moon, Delonte, and J.J. are all just average. Anthony Parker is okay. It's not like he has Vince Carter, Rashard Lewis, Brandon Bass, Jameer Nelson, and J.J. Redick to pick up the scoring slack. He's still got to put up the numbers. His team is extremely inconsistent in terms of offensive production. I still don't think anyone gets what I'm saying. Dwight doesn't NEED these stellar offensive stats in order for him to be a great player. His defense makes him great alone. The fact that he's still adding good offensive numbers just further proves my point that he's a clear-cut choice over Durant. I guess it's just opinion. If you asked me though, I'd go with Dwight over Durant. They're both inexperienced. The only argument you guys have for Durant, is the same one you have for Lebron. They're averaging a higher PPG than Dwight. I'll take Dwight's defense over both of their offenses for this team. Our team has almost too many offensive weapons. It's good that Dwight can still average 18.3 a game, when he rarely even touches the ball as much as he should on offense.

jackdawson
04-08-2010, 10:27 AM
Sorry about the PPG. It was a simple mistake. Either way, 18.3 PPG, and anchoring the defense of a team stands out by miles. I'd rather have Dwight's stellar-unmatched defense, while still maintaining a good offense, than having Durant's stellar offense, and decent defense.

What about the Lebron comment? Yeah, he still averages a high PPG this year, but he still doesn't have as deep of a team as Orlando. His team consists of mostly defensive threats, with some decent offensive players. Mo Williams & Antawn Jamison is the only thing he sniffs on offensive production. Shaq is washed up, Varejao doesn't do much on offense, Moon, Delonte, and J.J. are all just average. Anthony Parker is okay. It's not like he has Vince Carter, Rashard Lewis, Brandon Bass, Jameer Nelson, and J.J. Redick to pick up the scoring slack. He's still got to put up the numbers. His team is extremely inconsistent in terms of offensive production. I still don't think anyone gets what I'm saying. Dwight doesn't NEED these stellar offensive stats in order for him to be a great player. His defense makes him great alone. The fact that he's still adding good offensive numbers just further proves my point that he's a clear-cut choice over Durant. I guess it's just opinion. If you asked me though, I'd go with Dwight over Durant. They're both inexperienced. The only argument you guys have for Durant, is the same one you have for Lebron. They're averaging a higher PPG than Dwight. I'll take Dwight's defense over both of their offenses for this team. Our team has almost too many offensive weapons. It's good that Dwight can still average 18.3 a game, when he rarely even touches the ball as much as he should on offense.



About Lebron I said he will put up same numbers regardless of teammates. His number are even more mesmerizing than when big Z was the 2nd best player on the cavs 2/3 years ago. Now, with the addition of Mo, Shaq, Jamison, Deonte, Hickson bla bla, he is putting up even better numbers. Therefore, to say Lebron or Durant will average 5/7 less ppg in magic is ridiculous.

Are you serious about the bolded part??? Offense is the only thing Lebron has over Dwight? Give me a break. Lebron is an unanimous selection for anything about nba future, yes anything you can come up with. His potential/future/value won't be matched by any current superstar, because he is so versatile. You can find Jordan, Magic, Malone, Dr. J etc etc in him. Anyway, I thought we were having a healthy debate, but you got me done with that comment.

Anon
04-08-2010, 10:45 AM
Guess who is second in the league in plus/minus? Howard.

Raoul Duke
04-08-2010, 10:56 AM
I'd take Howard, and it's an easy decision. Why? Because he's pretty much the only legit center left in the league that has had no injury issues.

Durant is so good he makes me want to puke, but Howard is seven feet tall and he plays outstanding defense. A foundation piece like that, someone who can defend the entire post, is top priority on any team that wants to contend.

Raph12
04-08-2010, 02:06 PM
@ jackdawson, you're obviously a pissed off Cavs fan who saw his dominant 74-16 (after the 1st two rounds) team get whooped in the playoffs, I don't take anything you say seriously.

Let me put it this way, Orlando will always be a top team in this league because of Dwight's defense. Offense can only take you so far, it wasn't until Westbrooks and Green's coming out and Durant's improvement on the defensive end, that the Thunder got anywhere. Lebron's a stud no doubt, but the comparison is between Dwight and Durant, not Lebron.

Personally, I'd take Dwight over Lebron, a hard decision to make, but that's a whole new arguement, Dwight over Durant shouldn't even be close. I'm done arguing this though, why don't we get back at this in June when Orlando is in the Finals and KD is eliminated in the first round.

harlequin018
04-08-2010, 02:29 PM
This is closer than it should be because of the position Howard plays. Durant is a better player, now, and that gap will widen as he learns the nuances of the game. But finding a center that can dominate the lane is nearly impossible. Still, the way Durant is playing and carrying his team into the playoffs (they are by far the youngest team in the playoffs) and getting better with every game I have to take him here. With Howard, you get a top 10 all time center. With Durant, you don't know, he COULD become the greatest player to ever play, maybe...

tredigs
04-08-2010, 02:41 PM
@ jackdawson, you're obviously a pissed off Cavs fan who saw his dominant 74-16 (after the 1st two rounds) team get whooped in the playoffs, I don't take anything you say seriously.

Let me put it this way, Orlando will always be a top team in this league because of Dwight's defense. Offense can only take you so far, it wasn't until Westbrooks and Green's coming out and Durant's improvement on the defensive end, that the Thunder got anywhere. Lebron's a stud no doubt, but the comparison is between Dwight and Durant, not Lebron.

Personally, I'd take Dwight over Lebron, a hard decision to make, but that's a whole new arguement, Dwight over Durant shouldn't even be close. I'm done arguing this though, why don't we get back at this in June when Orlando is in the Finals and KD is eliminated in the first round.

Haha... now you're just slighting Durant for the sake of promoting Dwight. Do you really think that the development of Westbrook and Green (who has not developed significantly at all since past-season, which is a slight cause of concern for them) is what is cause for the turnaround team, or is it more to do with the fact that they're now among the leagues top tier defensive teams, anchored by the fact that Durant is now an upper echelon defender. He's top 5-6 in Defensive Win Shares in the league, and second in overall win shares. His true plus-minus (the raw plus minus that NBA.com does is highly flawed Radiant, which is why you have guys like Anthony Parker as 5th overall in the league) is #1 in the league, http://www.82games.com/0910/0910OKC.HTM. Ahead of Lebron's, and far ahead of Dwight's: http://www.82games.com/0910/0910ORL.HTM. Other things like Durant's PER already put him as a top 3 player in the league behind only Lebron and Wade, while Dwight doesn't quite crack the top 5. Add to that the increased offensive load that Durant has had to carry to get them here, and you have the complete reason for the turnaround [And no hate on Westbrook, because he has been highly instrumental in it as well, but he is at the type of improvement stage that Durant was at last year; which means effective, but still a bit raw and a summer away from being able to put it all together into adjusting into a complete player].

Anyways, those are telling stats for a 21 year old to have over your "inexperienced" (as radiant calls him) 6 year pro. Add to that that he has very, very limited pure shooters to kick the ball out to when he's driving to the rim (a la Lebron and half his assists) and you can see that the way he is scoring with such efficiency on offense is all the more impressive (being that they can heavily focus on him, whereas in Orlando/Cleveland, etc the attack is able to be much more balanced). Once his teammates develop into better shooters or acquire one, his assists totals will rise along with probably his PPG due to a few more clear looks.

Regardless, best of luck in the playoffs. That Thunder team is already far ahead of its curve, so as far as perception goes -- they're overachieving. As everyone knows, they're going to need somebody a bit more prolific than starting Nenad Kristic at Center before they are contenders, but their time will come --as the youngest team in the league with a bottom 5 payroll, things look VERY good for them. While in Orlando, anything less than a trophy has to be considered failure at this point, correct? They have the talent, let's see if Dwight can finish the job.

jackdawson
04-08-2010, 02:51 PM
@Raph:


@ jackdawson, you're obviously a pissed off Cavs fan who saw his dominant 74-16 (after the 1st two rounds) team get whooped in the playoffs, I don't take anything you say seriously.

I could care less about what a certified bandwagoner takes seriously. And what makes you think I am a cavs fan? Because I stated the obvious? I am a Heat fan who is not a blind homer or a five team bandwagoner and who thinks Lebron James is the greatest player on the planet now.


Let me put it this way, Orlando will always be a top team in this league because of Dwight's defense. Offense can only take you so far, it wasn't until Westbrooks and Green's coming out and Durant's improvement on the defensive end, that the Thunder got anywhere. Lebron's a stud no doubt, but the comparison is between Dwight and Durant, not Lebron.

I commented on Radianshot. He brought up Lebron and I just replied. So know what you are talking about before ranting and crying for nothing.


Personally, I'd take Dwight over Lebron, a hard decision to make, but that's a whole new arguement, Dwight over Durant shouldn't even be close. I'm done arguing this though, why don't we get back at this in June when Orlando is in the Finals and KD is eliminated in the first round.

Stop using stupid "Should be even close," "It's not even close" stuff. Take a look at the ****ing poll. You basically can't write a single post without homerism; in fact, HellCrooner was the second coming you.

EDIT: I can't believe I have wasted my 3 minutes on a certified bandwagoner.

Tisoykeis
04-08-2010, 02:51 PM
Wow, I am surprised that so many take Durant... Dwight is first in the league in double-doubles, shooting percentage, rebounds and blocked shots. He anchors Orlando's elite defense, which holds opponents to a league-low .437 field-goal percentage. I think Jameer Nelson's quote is quite telling, "He's controlling the game defensively. All the rest of the guys that are being mentioned for MVP are just scoring the ball and making plays."... Durant is amazing, but he doesn't have the individual impact that Dwight has on the game. Oh yea and to all these people acting like Durant is going to get you a late basket, or hit the fts... I dunno, I haven't seen, but one or 2 times he has hit anything meaningful late in a game, usually I see his teammates taking care of that.. OH yea and did anyone see Shaq late in games being the go to guy, no, but he still was the most dominant player in the NBA at the time.

Did you happen to watch the Jazz/Thunder game the other night? Care to retract your statement? Durrant was incredible down the stretch.

RadiantShot
04-08-2010, 02:53 PM
^@ Tre
I have confidence Dwight will finish it off this season. This is the year we're winning the Championship.

RadiantShot
04-08-2010, 02:58 PM
This is closer than it should be because of the position Howard plays. Durant is a better player, now, and that gap will widen as he learns the nuances of the game. But finding a center that can dominate the lane is nearly impossible. Still, the way Durant is playing and carrying his team into the playoffs (they are by far the youngest team in the playoffs) and getting better with every game I have to take him here. With Howard, you get a top 10 all time center. With Durant, you don't know, he COULD become the greatest player to ever play, maybe...

Eh. I don't like this statement. Let's give him a few more years before bringing him into a discussion as the greatest player in the game.....

tredigs
04-08-2010, 03:02 PM
@Raph:



I could care less about what a certified bandwagoner takes seriously. And what makes you think I am a cavs fan? Because I stated the obvious? I am a Heat fan who is not a blind homer or a five team bandwagoner and who thinks Lebron James is the greatest player on the planet now.



I commented on Radianshot. He brought up Lebron and I just replied. So know what you are talking about before ranting and crying for nothing.



Stop using stupid "Should be even close," "It's not even close" stuff. Take a look at the ****ing poll. You basically can't write a single post without homerism; in fact, HellCrooner was the second coming you.

EDIT: I can't believe I have wasted my 3 minutes on a certified bandwagoner.

hah truth, two things definitely worth noting. The two main people arguing for Dwight are unabashed Magic homers, while me and Jack are the two main people arguing a case for Durant. Him being a Heat fan, me a Warriors fan. And both of us agree that Lebron is the best in the league. Just sayin'

The "it shouldn't even be close" comment is already tired. It's definitely very close, and I give the edge to Durant for a lot of very particular reasons that I think I've argued pretty decently.


Eh. I don't like this statement. Let's give him a few more years before bringing him into a discussion as the greatest player in the game.....

Agreed. A lot of hard work and years of success have to come before those kinds of comments should even start being thought about.

mshan5
04-08-2010, 03:12 PM
Durant actually enjoys winning. KD AD.

RadiantShot
04-08-2010, 03:18 PM
hah truth, two things definitely worth noting. The two main people arguing for Dwight are unabashed Magic homers, while me and Jack are the two main people arguing a case for Durant. Him being a Heat fan, me a Warriors fan. And both of us agree that Lebron is the best in the league. Just sayin'

The "it shouldn't even be close" comment is already tired. It's definitely very close, and I give the edge to Durant for a lot of very particular reasons that I think I've argued pretty decently.



Agreed. A lot of hard work and years of success have to come before those kinds of comments should even start being thought about.

I don't think that's it. Well, at least for me. If this thread was, "Dwight or Lebron - For starting a franchise." I'd go with Lebron. I'm not really a homer. The only thing is, I get a chance to see Dwight much more than most people, being from Florida, having Brighthouse, and watching them every game, and what-not. I know what he's capable of. It could also be said that I haven't seen enough of Durant, which is true, but I just feel like Dwight needs to get his credit. He doesn't get nearly enough when we're making comparisons about a Forward and a Center. I understand Durant is great. I understand his numbers are incredible, but in this day and age, it's a lot less common to find someone of Dwight's caliber. All I'm saying. Fair enough?

RadiantShot
04-08-2010, 03:22 PM
Durant actually enjoys winning. KD AD.

Durant..Actually enjoys winning..

And Dwight doesn't?

I don't understand the statement.

Raph12
04-08-2010, 03:30 PM
@Raph:



I could care less about what a certified bandwagoner takes seriously. And what makes you think I am a cavs fan? Because I stated the obvious? I am a Heat fan who is not a blind homer or a five team bandwagoner and who thinks Lebron James is the greatest player on the planet now.



I commented on Radianshot. He brought up Lebron and I just replied. So know what you are talking about before ranting and crying for nothing.



Stop using stupid "Should be even close," "It's not even close" stuff. Take a look at the ****ing poll. You basically can't write a single post without homerism; in fact, HellCrooner was the second coming you.

EDIT: I can't believe I have wasted my 3 minutes on a certified bandwagoner.

Bandwagon this, homer that, just shutup already.... Stop crying about me being a fan of the sport and just make legit arguements like Digs is trying to do.

You know what, I'll take Phil Jackson's thoughts on the subject much more seriously than a bunch of PSD posters. I know what I know and you guys can watch Dwight in the Finals (again) and watch KD's first round exit, courtesy of the Suns/Mavs.

Dwight is a top talent in the league and he'll prove it in June.

tredigs
04-08-2010, 03:32 PM
Durant..Actually enjoys winning..

And Dwight doesn't?

I don't understand the statement.

Me neither. Both these guys enjoy winning, but wth doesn't? They both do seem to have fun on the court though.

Truth be told, two very likable players.

All likable team?

PG: Steve Nash

SG: Dwyane Wade ?

SF: Kevin Durant

PF: Antawn Jamison

C: Dwight Howard (with soon to be challenger Greg Oden?... or... maybe not)

MagicDojo
04-08-2010, 03:33 PM
I would always take the best defensive player.

tredigs
04-08-2010, 03:38 PM
I don't think that's it. Well, at least for me. If this thread was, "Dwight or Lebron - For starting a franchise." I'd go with Lebron. I'm not really a homer. The only thing is, I get a chance to see Dwight much more than most people, being from Florida, having Brighthouse, and watching them every game, and what-not. I know what he's capable of. It could also be said that I haven't seen enough of Durant, which is true, but I just feel like Dwight needs to get his credit. He doesn't get nearly enough when we're making comparisons about a Forward and a Center. I understand Durant is great. I understand his numbers are incredible, but in this day and age, it's a lot less common to find someone of Dwight's caliber. All I'm saying. Fair enough?

Fair enough, and I slightly disagree but that's the fun of it. For what it's worth I have league pass and am able to watch them both play a good deal. Your points are definitely valid though. And for the record, I don't call you two "unabashed homers" as a bad thing, there's nothing wrong with it. It was more of a response to the thinking that the comparison is not even close in some peoples minds.

Avenged
04-08-2010, 03:38 PM
^@ Tre
I have confidence Dwight will finish it off this season. This is the year we're winning the Championship.

If you're referring to the Lakers, yes I agree! :cool:

RadiantShot
04-08-2010, 03:38 PM
Me neither. Both these guys enjoy winning, but wth doesn't? They both do seem to have fun on the court though.

Truth be told, two very likable players.

All likable team?

PG: Steve Nash

SG: Dwyane Wade ?

SF: Kevin Durant

PF: Antawn Jamison

C: Dwight Howard (with soon to be challenger Greg Oden?... or... maybe not)

Haha. Yeah. Sounds good. We'll see about Oden.

RadiantShot
04-08-2010, 03:39 PM
If you're referring to the Lakers, yes I agree! :cool:

No. I'm really not. You guys aren't winning it this year. I'm tired of Laker fans popping up in every thread saying they'll win the championship. I've got confidence we'll win it this year. We'll see come Playoff time.

Avenged
04-08-2010, 03:41 PM
No. I'm really not. You guys aren't winning it this year. I'm tired of Laker fans popping up in every thread saying they'll win the championship. I've got confidence we'll win it this year. We'll see come Playoff time.

You're tired of Laker fans saying they'll win it all but yet.. you made the same claim before me. :confused: Anyways, no hard feelings, didn't think it would upset you. :p

RadiantShot
04-08-2010, 03:43 PM
You're tired of Laker fans saying they'll win it all but yet.. you made the same claim before me. :confused: Anyways, no hard feelings, didn't think it would upset you. :p

Haha. It's not you. Don't worry. It's just the fact that whenever I say Orlando will win the championship this year, someone else come's in and says the Lakers will win it, as if Orlando was 5th seeded or something.

tredigs
04-08-2010, 03:43 PM
You're tired of Laker fans saying they'll win it all but yet.. you made the same claim before me. :confused: Anyways, no hard feelings, didn't think it would upset you. :p

lmao. Difference is that his was warranted and was a response to our talk. Which was a pretty damn good one. Shoo fly -- >

Silly Lakers fans.

RadiantShot
04-08-2010, 03:45 PM
lmao. Difference is that his was warranted and was a response to our talk. Which was a pretty damn good one. Shoo fly -- >

Silly Lakers fans.

;)
Stop being so likeable.

Avenged
04-08-2010, 03:47 PM
lmao. Difference is that his was warranted and was a response to our talk. Which was a pretty damn good one. Shoo fly -- >

Silly Lakers fans.

So you're implying i butted in your "pretty damn good talk"? but you just butted in to the one I was having with Radiant. :cool:

RadiantShot
04-08-2010, 03:48 PM
^
Nice Odom sig, but shut the hell up ;) jkkk lol.

jackdawson
04-08-2010, 03:48 PM
Bandwagon this, homer that, just shutup already.... Stop crying about me being a fan of the sport and just make legit arguements like Digs is trying to do.

You know what, I'll take Phil Jackson's thoughts on the subject much more seriously than a bunch of PSD posters. I know what I know and you guys can watch Dwight in the Finals (again) and watch KD's first round exit, courtesy of the Suns/Mavs.

Dwight is a top talent in the league and he'll prove it in June.

Make a legit argument? And coming from a five team bandwagoner who spends all day mumbling "It's not even close," "This shouldn't be even close," "Easily Dwight....," stuff like that, and barely knows how to formulate a debate? Hah!

Avenged
04-08-2010, 03:49 PM
Haha. It's not you. Don't worry. It's just the fact that whenever I say Orlando will win the championship this year, someone else come's in and says the Lakers will win it, as if Orlando was 5th seeded or something.

Oh no I take it back then, forget my Laker statement, you're completely correct. Orlando will win the championship this year. :worthy:

RadiantShot
04-08-2010, 03:50 PM
Oh no I take it back then, forget my Laker statement, you're completely correct. Orlando will win the championship this year. :worthy:

Same to you.
:worthy:

:facepalm:

Avenged
04-08-2010, 03:51 PM
Same to you.
:worthy:

:facepalm:

:laugh:

jackdawson
04-08-2010, 03:52 PM
I don't think that's it. Well, at least for me. If this thread was, "Dwight or Lebron - For starting a franchise." I'd go with Lebron. I'm not really a homer. The only thing is, I get a chance to see Dwight much more than most people, being from Florida, having Brighthouse, and watching them every game, and what-not. I know what he's capable of. It could also be said that I haven't seen enough of Durant, which is true, but I just feel like Dwight needs to get his credit. He doesn't get nearly enough when we're making comparisons about a Forward and a Center. I understand Durant is great. I understand his numbers are incredible, but in this day and age, it's a lot less common to find someone of Dwight's caliber. All I'm saying. Fair enough?

Fair enough. At least you come up with good points and don't fear to accept the obvious.

RadiantShot
04-08-2010, 03:54 PM
^
Okay. Thank you. Good discussion.

Avenged
04-08-2010, 03:56 PM
Looks like Durant's going to win this one. I really thought Dwight would dominate this poll.

IconC20
04-08-2010, 04:20 PM
Hmm. This is tough, I wouldn't have a problem with either, but I take the Big Man, a lot harder to find a quality one. Both are franchise players, but Dwight can control a team defensively and offensively.

so true...howard

mcgswfan
04-08-2010, 05:32 PM
I voted for Howard and I'm not a Magic fan, I'm a Warrior fan. Here is the reason why: When starting a franchise, I take Dwight because for every ONE Howard that comes into the league, there are TEN Durants.

Now that being said, "alpha dog" Durant (a.k.a, the original) IS a SUPERFREAK of an athlete and a lot more of a rare commodity than those other wannabe Durants that enter the league, so a more realistic number is probably closer to three or four Durants for every one Howard, every 5-10 years or so. But, this STILL means that teams have a better chance of getting someone like Durant than they do of getting someone like Howard. If you are the person who makes player decisions, you take the big guy knowing that you could still potentially also end up with a Durant type player as well. You DO NOT want to be the guy that passed up on the chance to acquire a player that could redefine/solidify your team for many years at one of the two most difficult positions to fill, the 1 or the 5.

Just ask yourselves the following question and the real answer to this pole should be revealed:

If you were a person that makes all the player decisions for a franchise: Do you want to be the guy who already has Durant and is looking to get Howard, or do you want to be the guy that already has Howard and is looking to get Durant?

SteveNash
04-08-2010, 06:06 PM
^I am convinced that you are the most consistently "fail" of a poster on PSD, Nash. When I take a stand on something and you vehemently disagree, I know that I am 100% correct.

The perfect barometer.

Saying Durant is an "upper tier wing defender" is more fail than anything I've said on here.


^^^Did SteveNash just say he'd choose Dwight (his 10mpg center behind the Diesal) over Kevin Durant?... I guess that make KD worse than Shaq lol.

Although I disagree with Nash everytime we've ever talked, I do think this is an open-and-shut case. Dwight should've blown this out of the water IMO.

When did I say Howard would be a 10mpg center behind Shaq? I said Shaq would start at C and get more touches where Howard would probably complain about it. Shaq can't even play 38mpg any more so I don't know where you're getting the 10mpg for Howard figure.


He's a non-factor on offense, yet he's averaging 18.3 PPG.

Dwight is pretty much a non-factor on offense and will remain so until he can consistently score on his own. When you watch Howard's bad offensive games, it's because he doesn't get the easy opportunities he normally gets. It's times like these where his 18.3 PPG don't mean crap.

JordansBulls
04-08-2010, 07:43 PM
Durant starting to get overhyped now.

RadiantShot
04-08-2010, 08:11 PM
^
That.
Barely anyone talked about him last year from what I can recall. The guy supposedly hung the moon now. Congratulations, Kevin.

Avenged
04-08-2010, 09:27 PM
IMO Durant is living up to the hype. I think he already surpassed his hype actually, since entering the league. Durant is just taking his game to a whole nother' level and everybody is noticing. Its due to the success of the Thunder, if they were below 500 team, you have to assume nobody would be this excited about Durant.

Raph12
04-09-2010, 01:46 AM
Make a legit argument? And coming from a five team bandwagoner who spends all day mumbling "It's not even close," "This shouldn't be even close," "Easily Dwight....," stuff like that, and barely knows how to formulate a debate? Hah!

Again with the bs, I tell you to make a legit arguement and all you can say is bandwagoner this and homer that... This debate is over.

jackdawson
04-09-2010, 01:47 AM
Durant starting to get overhyped now.

lol. Didn't you say the debate was between Rose and Durant?? Now I see where you are coming from ;)

tredigs
04-09-2010, 01:54 AM
Durant starting to get overhyped now.

A 21 year third year player/MVP candidate who is looking likely to go down as the youngest scoring champion in NBA history, all while leading the youngest team in the league to the heart of the Western Conference playoff race.

Pshh... yawwwwwwwwn. Kid's all hype man, I agree. Is John Wall in the NBA yet?

RadiantShot
04-09-2010, 09:28 AM
A 21 year third year player/MVP candidate who is looking likely to go down as the youngest scoring champion in NBA history, all while leading the youngest team in the league to the heart of the Western Conference playoff race.

Pshh... yawwwwwwwwn. Kid's all hype man, I agree. Is John Wall in the NBA yet?

..Don't start with that either. That's almost as bad as, "The NBA's greatest player." He's only been in the league a few seasons, just wait..Please.

GSW Hoops
04-09-2010, 11:50 AM
Durant starting to get overhyped now.

That tends to happen when a player is really, really, really good :)

Baller1
04-09-2010, 02:28 PM
..Don't start with that either. That's almost as bad as, "The NBA's greatest player." He's only been in the league a few seasons, just wait..Please.

What are you talking about? It's a fact... Durant is quite possibly about to be the youngest scoring champion ever.

tredigs
04-09-2010, 02:35 PM
What are you talking about? It's a fact... Durant is quite possibly about to be the youngest scoring champion ever.

Exactly. This isn't speculation. If the season ends today, he is the youngest SINGLE SEASON scoring champion in NBA history. It looks like Lebron is choosing to either play 35+ minutes or not at all, so he may not get help from him shutting down, but regardless Durant has a decent enough lead that there's a good chance he will take it.

I'm not talking about all time here (in which case "youngest" wouldn't make any sense anyway) if that's what you were confused about...?

Baller1
04-09-2010, 02:37 PM
Exactly. This isn't speculation. If the season ends today, he is the youngest SINGLE SEASON scoring champion in NBA history. It looks like Lebron is choosing to either play 35+ minutes or not at all, so he may not get help from him shutting down, but regardless Durant has a decent enough lead that there's a good chance he will take it.

I'm not talking about all time here (in which case "youngest" wouldn't make any sense anyway) if that's what you were confused about...?

Yeah I think KD is going to get it. He's picked up a nice lead (which is incredible to think about considering it's still so ridiculously close), and I'm expecting a big night from KD against a bad defensive team in Phoenix tonight. We should see atleast 30.

tredigs
04-09-2010, 02:42 PM
Yeah I think KD is going to get it. He's picked up a nice lead (which is incredible to think about considering it's still so ridiculously close), and I'm expecting a big night from KD against a bad defensive team in Phoenix tonight. We should see atleast 30.

Agreed. Though my fantasy team is in a 110pt hole on pts scored, so I'm looking to shore up about 73 from KD tonight. ...What?

RadiantShot
04-09-2010, 02:48 PM
Exactly. This isn't speculation. If the season ends today, he is the youngest SINGLE SEASON scoring champion in NBA history. It looks like Lebron is choosing to either play 35+ minutes or not at all, so he may not get help from him shutting down, but regardless Durant has a decent enough lead that there's a good chance he will take it.

I'm not talking about all time here (in which case "youngest" wouldn't make any sense anyway) if that's what you were confused about...?

Yeah.
That's what I was confused about.
Was pretty early in the morning. Sorry for the epic fail.

Baller1
04-09-2010, 03:22 PM
Agreed. Though my fantasy team is in a 110pt hole on pts scored, so I'm looking to shore up about 73 from KD tonight. ...What?

That's about what I was expecting out of him tonight. Maybe we're not asking for enough though?

But on a serious note, I really hope the Thunder and KD pull a W out tonight.

Baller1
04-09-2010, 03:23 PM
Yeah.
That's what I was confused about.
Was pretty early in the morning. Sorry for the epic fail.

It happens. No big deal.

SteveNash
04-09-2010, 03:31 PM
What are you talking about? It's a fact... Durant is quite possibly about to be the youngest scoring champion ever.

And if he wins it, he'll manage to beat out Max Zaslofsky the GOAT. Clearly the youngest to win a scoring title means a lot.

Baller1
04-09-2010, 03:36 PM
And if he wins it, he'll manage to beat out Max Zaslofsky the GOAT. Clearly the youngest to win a scoring title means a lot.

When the **** did I say that this makes him the Greatest? You're pathetic. Digs and I were simply making an observation; just do us a favor and keep quiet.

macc
04-09-2010, 03:41 PM
This debate is still going on........

When Durrant surpasses a prime T Mac then we'll open this up, but since he hasn't surpassed T Mac then I don't even know how this is a debate.


Does anyone think Durrant is going to make it past the first round of the playoffs this year? I mean as great as people are saying he is, shouldn't he be a lock for the 2nd round?

jackdawson
04-09-2010, 03:43 PM
Yeah.
That's what I was confused about.
Was pretty early in the morning. Sorry for the epic fail.

You and ManRam are by far best magic posters on PSD.

EDIT: No homo.

SteveNash
04-09-2010, 03:44 PM
When the **** did I say that this makes him the Greatest? You're pathetic. Digs and I were simply making an observation; just do us a favor and keep quiet.

You seem to be placing a whole lot of value on a stat that is pretty meaningless.

RadiantShot
04-09-2010, 03:48 PM
You and ManRam are by far best magic posters on PSD.

EDIT: No homo.

Hmm. If you're serious, then Thanks. Personally, I hold Macc & Raph in higher-regard, but that's very nice of you to say that. Thanks for the compliment. ManRam is the best out of all of us though ;)

Raoul Duke
04-09-2010, 03:54 PM
Does anyone think Durrant is going to make it past the first round of the playoffs this year? I mean as great as people are saying he is, shouldn't he be a lock for the 2nd round?

Doesn't matter. That team has already obliterated any and all expectations about how they would do this season. You can't penalize a team for not overachieving enough.

mcgswfan
04-09-2010, 04:09 PM
I can see the Thunder pulling off an upset in the first round. Oh..., but they are going to need to move up in the standings a spot or two in the last few games to have a chance at it though. If the playoffs started today, they would be playing the Lakers and they won't beat them.

Dallas and Denver are no slouches either, but I think OKC would have a better chance at beating one of those guys than they would at beating the Lakers.

Baller1
04-09-2010, 04:27 PM
You seem to be placing a whole lot of value on a stat that is pretty meaningless.

Please show me where I put this statistic in high regard.

macc
04-09-2010, 04:36 PM
Doesn't matter. That team has already obliterated any and all expectations about how they would do this season. You can't penalize a team for not overachieving enough.



Hmmm, I disagree. I'm surpised that you are saying that winning in the playoffs "doesn't matter." Last I checked thats where players earned their greatness.

See fans are extrememly predictable. Fans love flashyness and offense. Durrant has both. Over time people will become more and more critical of of his game if he doesn't start winning playoff series/championships. Look at T Mac. T Mac was a better play maker, passer, rebounder than Durrant. Matter of fact the only thing I can give Durrant over T Mac is the fact that he's a tad bit better defender. That's it.

That's why I use the T Mac comparison alot with Durrant. Had all the talent in the world. People loved him, then when they saw he couldn't get out of the first round people then turned on the guy. Eventhough he was pretty much the underdog in every playoff series he was in.

Todays fan is always looking for the "next new thing." People want the next Jordan or Shaq or Bird or Magic. Yet people don't know what it takes to get to a Magic Johnson level. It takes years of work and not only that it takes years of "winning."

Call me old school but I like to see a player earn his stripes in the playoffs before I consider him a top anything. You people today will call a guy a top 5 talent that's never won a single playoff game in their life. To me that's crazy talk.

I just think it's simply disrespectful to players like Kobe/Lebron/Melo/Pierce who have been in the league some years, won tons of games and playoff series and in some cases championships, then a guy comes in the league and has been here a couple years. Won nothing but yet is conisdered better than all of the above by some people.


One big thing noone brings up in their comparisons is durability. Not only is there guys who dominate, but dominate over a long period of time, years and years. That's what makes somone great. I can already see John Wall getting drafted next year, putting up 17 5 5 numbers and already being considered the best pg in the league. You know it will happen. Its just annoying thats all. Make somone earn their stripes before you put them on a pedastal.

NiTEFuRY
04-09-2010, 04:47 PM
Howard. Big men like him are very rare.

Raoul Duke
04-09-2010, 05:30 PM
Hmmm, I disagree. I'm surpised that you are saying that winning in the playoffs "doesn't matter." Last I checked thats where players earned their greatness.

I totally agree. I just think that the team is so young, and was in such a bad place recently, that it magnifies how big an accomplishment it is for them to be in 50 win territory. In addition, I won't fault them for losing in the first round to one of the west powerhouses. I at least expect them to make a series of it.

SteveNash
04-09-2010, 05:52 PM
Please show me where I put this statistic in high regard.

By bringing it up in the first place. If you didn't think much of it, why would you bring it up?

Baller1
04-09-2010, 06:34 PM
By bringing it up in the first place. If you didn't think much of it, why would you bring it up?

I didn't even bring it up. And you proved my point by not quoting anything I said about being scoring champ and holding it in high regard. You're pathetic, just stop.

Ebbs
04-09-2010, 06:49 PM
i think Durnat hands down. He is a true franchsie palyer. Dwight is aweosme but he needs work in so many areas.

basketfan4life
04-09-2010, 07:07 PM
the question is not who is the better player?it is which one you want to buil a team around.and in some cases being the better player isn't enough for this question.i don't know if durant is the better one but i do know i build my team around dwight howard...this is the reason some people make an argument about building around dwight is a better choice than lebron,let alone durant.and if magic beats cavs this year again,i gotta say they are right, building around dwight is better choice than lebron,inspite of knowing that lebron is the better player..so the answer is howard.

SteveNash
04-09-2010, 07:24 PM
I didn't even bring it up. And you proved my point by not quoting anything I said about being scoring champ and holding it in high regard. You're pathetic, just stop.


What are you talking about? It's a fact... Durant is quite possibly about to be the youngest scoring champion ever.

RadiantShot never argued against the "fact" and you wanted to argue with him and try to make it into a big deal.

Baller1
04-09-2010, 07:25 PM
RadiantShot never argued against the "fact" and you wanted to argue with him and try to make it into a big deal.

RadiantShot even admitted he made a mistake; you're going no where with this.

RadiantShot
04-09-2010, 08:14 PM
^
As much as I want to agree with SteveNash, because that's rarely ever, I did make a mistake, and I said Durant wasn't going to win it, but I was thinking of something else.

Avenged
04-09-2010, 09:43 PM
This thread got boring now.

Steve Nash isn't liked around here..

:sigh:

RadiantShot
04-09-2010, 10:20 PM
Mmmmmmmmmmmmm...

When the Smoke Clears...Yeahh.

Raph12
04-10-2010, 12:03 AM
^^^SteveNash isn't liked anywhere, no offence.

Baller1
04-10-2010, 12:20 AM
^^^SteveNash isn't liked anywhere, no offence.

Loving the updated sig.

Avenged
04-10-2010, 12:22 AM
^^^SteveNash isn't liked anywhere, no offence.

You hopped off the Wade bandwagon and hopped on Durant's? :p

joking. :cool:

IRUAM #21
04-10-2010, 12:22 PM
You hopped off the Wade bandwagon and hopped on Durant's? :p

joking. :cool:

He should replace Kobe with Wade ;)

Raph12
04-10-2010, 12:29 PM
Loving the updated sig.

You hopped off the Wade bandwagon and hopped on Durant's? :p

joking. :cool:

Yeah I feel like Durant has eclipsed Wade as the 5th best player in the league, IMO of course.


He should replace Kobe with Wade ;)

I still hold Kobe in very high regard, I still think he's the best player in the league... I'll wait for Lebron to prove me wrong in the playoffs.

Avenged
04-10-2010, 12:49 PM
He should replace Kobe with Wade ;)


I still hold Kobe in very high regard, I still think he's the best player in the league... I'll wait for Lebron to prove me wrong in the playoffs.


Haha :p

IRUAM #21
04-10-2010, 11:42 PM
I'm not getting into this ;)

still1ballin
04-10-2010, 11:49 PM
I'm not getting into this ;)

Only with me;)

IRUAM #21
04-10-2010, 11:53 PM
:drool: