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View Full Version : Proven: Artest a better fit for Lakers then Ariza



G-Funk
03-31-2010, 05:28 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...artest.lakers/




For the record, the Lakers' offense improves 1.8 points per 100 possessions when Artest plays compared to when he sits. By contrast, L.A. scored 0.9 fewer points per 100 possessions when Ariza was on the court last season -- it was more efficient when he was benched.

It's ironic that Artest is now being chided for not finding his niche in the offense. Heading into the season, people were rightly concerned that he would emulate the horrible shot selection and ball-dominance he demonstrated last year in Houston. Instead, the notorious narcissist has sublimated his ego for the good of the team, favoring rapid ball movement (and consciously feeding Kobe) over silly shots or dribble penetration. He has reduced his field-goal attempts (from 15 per game last year to 9.7) while boosting his accuracy and committing the fewest turnovers per game of his 11-year career. (Incidentally, Ariza has become a flagrant bricklayer in his more prominent role in Houston, ranking sixth in the NBA in three-point attempts per game and 117th in three-point percentage.


Of course, the Lakers didn't acquire Artest for his offense. He came to L.A. to be the defensive stopper, to take some of the burden off of Kobe at that end of the court and instill more toughness and muscle, especially in the playoffs. If Jackson and the Lakers insist on occasionally throwing him out on the perimeter in half-court sets to guard the likes of Marcus Thornton, as happened Monday night in a road loss to the Hornets, then, yes, Artest is going to seem a step slow, particularly in comparison to the leonine Ariza.

But overall, Artest is mostly delivering the goods -- and is an upgrade over Ariza -- on defense. The Lakers have improved from sixth (104.7 points allowed per 100 possessions) to 5th (103.1 points allowed) in defensive efficiency compared to last season. The team is permitting four fewer points per 100 possessions when Artest is on the court compared to when he sits, a better improvement than the 0.6 fewer points per 100 possessions that Ariza contributed last season when he played.

G-Funk
03-31-2010, 05:29 PM
Ralph12
Hawkeye15
Chronz
Theking23
prodigy
& Others who said Artest makes the Lakers worst, explain that!

bigsams50
03-31-2010, 05:36 PM
What makes you think Lakers are first in Defense?

GoatMilk
03-31-2010, 05:39 PM
Ariza got manhandled by Carmelo last year

GSW Hoops
03-31-2010, 05:39 PM
This won't be proven or disproven until the playoffs.

homestarunner93
03-31-2010, 05:39 PM
Proven: This belongs in the Lakers forum. No one else cares.

Avenged
03-31-2010, 05:40 PM
Proven: This belongs in the Lakers forum. No one else cares.

I agree. But it's already there. lol

SteveNash
03-31-2010, 05:41 PM
Ralph12
Hawkeye15
Chronz
Theking23
prodigy
& Others who said Artest makes the Lakers worst, explain that!

LA's bench is worse this year?

masalex1205
03-31-2010, 05:43 PM
Artest: Age 30

Ariza: Age 24

Artest is the better fit right now but let's talk in 3 years about whether the Lakers did the right thing

m26555
03-31-2010, 05:44 PM
This won't be proven or disproven until the playoffs.
This.

The Lakers won a championship with Ariza; they have yet to do so with Artest. I'm reserving my judgment until June.

G-Funk
03-31-2010, 05:49 PM
Proven: This belongs in the Lakers forum. No one else cares.

Actually this was a pretty hot topic on the NBA forum at the beggening of the year.

Verbal Christ
03-31-2010, 05:50 PM
http://bleacherreport.com/tb/b3qWc



We all know Ron Artest(notes) is a crazy guy. That's probably what it'll say on his tombstone that's sure to be located in Queensbridge and made from some precious metal. Just a typical tombstone, really.

We also know that his skill set (shooting a lot, bumping guys, shooting) isn't quite as suited to the Lakers as that of the guy he replaced, Trevor Ariza(notes). Ariza preferred to fill in the gaps for the Lakers, rather than asserting himself wherever he saw fit, even if it's not necessary.

Guess who else knows that? Seņor Crazy, Ron Artest.

Here's what he told Bill Plaschke of the Los Angeles Times when asked about the differences between himself and Ariza:

"He's a better player than me," Artest said Tuesday.

But Ron-Ron, nobody ever said he was better, we just said he was a better fit.

"He's a better player," Artest repeated emphatically. "He's won a ring, I haven't. I can't even compare to him. He's a better player."

Artest also agrees, incidentally, with the part about Ariza being a better fit.

"He probably is," Artest said. "He's a role player, a great role player. I haven't been a role player. Many times I've had to carry the load, this is a different look for me."


Ron Artest's harshest critic has always been Ron Artest. When we all thought his hair looked excellent, he shaved it off and called it a "hair don't." Like I said, he's harsh.

But maybe he's right. After all, the Lakers have already lost more games this season than they did all last year. Furthermore, their offensive efficiency has gone from 3rd to 10th. And last I checked, they haven't won any championships this year. Oh, they haven't played those yet? Never mind.

On the other hand, how many times has Trevor Ariza had foreign languages in his hair? Zero times. Advantage, Artest.

G-Funk
03-31-2010, 05:55 PM
their offensive efficiency has gone from 3rd to 10th.

Lakers' offense improves 1.8 points per 100 possessions when Artest plays compared to when he sits. By contrast, L.A. scored 0.9 fewer points per 100 possessions when Ariza was on the court last season -- it was more efficient when he was benched.

albertc86
03-31-2010, 05:56 PM
Artest: Age 30

Ariza: Age 24

Artest is the better fit right now but let's talk in 3 years about whether the Lakers did the right thing

Irrelevant. By then, Kobe, Odom, and Pau will be on the older side as well. The Lakers are built for now and not so much for the future with the way Bynum has been inconsistent. There's a fundamental difference between Ariza and Artest. Ariza is a gambler on the defensive end and sometimes it pays off; however, he is not a shut down defender. Conversely, Artest is still capable of being a shut down defender or at least neutralizing good/great players; he just can't do it as often as he used to. At the end of the day, Artest is the better fit and come playoffs, I have no doubt that he'll put in work. I think the Ariza versus Artest argument was blown out of proportion at the beginning of the year due to Ariza's fast start as a Rocket.

G-Funk
03-31-2010, 06:03 PM
I think the Ariza versus Artest argument was blown out of proportion at the beginning of the year due to Ariza's fast start as a Rocket.

Exactly A lot of ppl who want to see the Lakers fail claimed it made us worst and used that argument but now that the season is basically over it shows that Artest was an upgrade. So now I wanna put it to rest.

GSW Hoops
03-31-2010, 06:07 PM
Lakers' offense improves 1.8 points per 100 possessions when Artest plays compared to when he sits. By contrast, L.A. scored 0.9 fewer points per 100 possessions when Ariza was on the court last season -- it was more efficient when he was benched.

Put away your calculator and watch the game.

G-Funk
03-31-2010, 06:27 PM
Put away your calculator and watch the game.
Why if I can do both

RaiderLakersA's
03-31-2010, 06:55 PM
This won't be proven or disproven until the playoffs.

It may be PROVEN, but it won't MATTER until the Lakers get to the playoffs...and only then, if they win it all.

Verbal Christ
03-31-2010, 06:57 PM
even with artest at his best nobody is stopping lebron this year, ron ron might be able to hold him to around 25 PPG.

ntat
03-31-2010, 07:08 PM
Artest: Age 30
Ariza: Age 24

Artest is the better fit right now but let's talk in 3 years about whether the Lakers did the right thing
first off artest is just better. completely better. Ariza is shooting under 40% and the rockets had to bring in another swingman cuz he cant score. and 2nd Kobe is 30, artest isnt ancient.

RaiderLakersA's
03-31-2010, 07:12 PM
even with artest at his best nobody is stopping lebron this year, ron ron might be able to hold him to around 25 PPG.

Dude, the blueprint has already been established. No one will try to stop LeBron. They'll let him score as much as he likes.

What they will do is limit the effectiveness of his other teammates.

No one star can do it alone. True of every star that has ever played the game.

Verbal Christ
03-31-2010, 07:26 PM
^ perhaps but lbj has the most help he's ever had, guaging by the NBA record back-to-back PER's eclipsing even MJ. but yea you're right he'll probably need to get lucky.

CowboysKB24
03-31-2010, 07:30 PM
Artest: Age 30

Ariza: Age 24

Artest is the better fit right now but let's talk in 3 years about whether the Lakers did the right thing

Ariza was a better player last year because of the system. Now he is on the Rockets and trying to become a better player by himself. Kobe, Gasol, Odom, Bynum, etc can make you look real good when they are on your team.

It was the right move. IMO Phil and Kobe era will be done after three years. One of them will be gone and Kobe won't be top 10 in the league anymore.

CowboysKB24
03-31-2010, 07:32 PM
Put away your calculator and watch the game.

LOL. I agree. Those stats are irrelevant. Lakers are about the same team as last year either way. Both guys bring different types of pros and cons.

tjlipford
03-31-2010, 07:37 PM
Look this will be proven if they lose or win it all. All those cute stats mean nothing and there record is not good as last years. Those intricate stats don't prove ****. IMO I think Ariza was a better fit, but that doesn't mean LA still can't win the ring. Ariza made his threes when he was open and he created a lot of fast breaks for himself. Artest gets a lot of open looks and majority of the time throws up a brick. I do like Artest though.

Ariza might not be a go to player like Artest was but he sure looked good playing along side of Kobe.

ldc62
03-31-2010, 07:46 PM
Yea but Ariza is better in the long run for the Rockets.

Raph12
03-31-2010, 07:48 PM
What makes you think Lakers are first in Defense?

They aren't, they're 5th (6th last season) at 103.1 (1. Boston [102.4], 2. Charlotte [102.5], 3. Orlando [102.8] and 4. Milwaukee [102.9]).


Artest: Age 30

Ariza: Age 24

Artest is the better fit right now but let's talk in 3 years about whether the Lakers did the right thing

Good point.


Ralph12
Hawkeye15
Chronz
Theking23
prodigy
& Others who said Artest makes the Lakers worst, explain that!

Raph for Raphael, not "Ralph"

Their SRS ranking dropped from 7.11 (3rd) to 5.62 (4th), offensive rating dropped from 112.8 (3rd) to 109.8 (10th) and they've won significantly less games against winning teams... What more do you want from me?

Plus we've yet to see how they perform in the playoffs, when it counts most, get back at me in June.

Jenceman
03-31-2010, 07:58 PM
They have been hurt a bit, I would venture a guess that that may have more to do with the Lakers overall lower performance as compared to last season. That and maybe a lack of motivation for the regular season. Remember the Spurs used to never do too great in the regular season.

MagicDojo
03-31-2010, 09:35 PM
When Ariza played in Orlando we loved him. He didnt shoot much then, and I was suprised when he was hitting 48% from 3 in the playoffs.
What I always really liked were intangibles: like getting loose balls, offensive rebounds and puttbacks, scrapping on the floor for the ball or diving to save an out of bounds posession.. Thats what he was known for in Orlando, as a real hustle player. Was that the case in LA and what does Artest bring to the table in those catagories?

BlinkManJan02
03-31-2010, 09:39 PM
hmm, after they win a championship with Artest I think it's fair to say so. So, in about two months haha.

avrpatsfan
03-31-2010, 09:45 PM
Proven: This belongs in the Lakers forum. No one else cares.

This.

heathonater
03-31-2010, 09:50 PM
artest hasnt proven anything until he helps the lakers win the title.

NYtilIdie
03-31-2010, 09:55 PM
Last year the Lakers were 65-17 with Ariza

This year with Artest they're 54-21 and are struggling to get 60 wins and with 8 games left, with 4 being road games 2 against the Hawks and the Nuggets. Also with 5 of those teams being play-off caliber teams.

So while the Artest project is still up in the air, you guys severely under-achieved this season after winning 65 games the previous year. Especially with so many Laker fans claiming this Laker team was better then the 95-96 Bulls and claiming this team was going to win more then 70 games.

NYtilIdie
03-31-2010, 10:03 PM
And the Lakers just lost tonight if they lose anymore games, they won't get past 60 wins.

CowboysKB24
03-31-2010, 10:29 PM
They aren't, they're 5th (6th last season) at 103.1 (1. Boston [102.4], 2. Charlotte [102.5], 3. Orlando [102.8] and 4. Milwaukee [102.9]).


Their SRS ranking dropped from 7.11 (3rd) to 5.62 (4th), offensive rating dropped from 112.8 (3rd) to 109.8 (10th) and they've won significantly less games against winning teams... What more do you want from me?

Plus we've yet to see how they perform in the playoffs, when it counts most, get back at me in June.

Well even if the Lakers don't win it this year you can't say the Artest trade was a big factor. All the top teams have changed. It is a completely different story this year.

CowboysKB24
03-31-2010, 10:30 PM
And the Lakers just lost tonight if they lose anymore games, they won't get past 60 wins.

LA can afford to lose one more game to make it to 60 wins. They have 21 losses right now. If they finish 6-1, they'll be 60-22. Either way, what does it really matter?

G-Funk
04-01-2010, 10:53 AM
Last year the Lakers were 65-17 with Ariza

This year with Artest they're 54-21 and are struggling to get 60 wins and with 8 games left, with 4 being road games 2 against the Hawks and the Nuggets. Also with 5 of those teams being play-off caliber teams.

So while the Artest project is still up in the air, you guys severely under-achieved this season after winning 65 games the previous year. Especially with so many Laker fans claiming this Laker team was better then the 95-96 Bulls and claiming this team was going to win more then 70 games.

Last year we were hungry, Last year Gasol didn't get injured, Last year Kobe didn't miss any games, Last year our bench didn't suck, this year we have a target on our backs.

Chronz
04-01-2010, 01:00 PM
Ralph12
Hawkeye15
Chronz
Theking23
prodigy
& Others who said Artest makes the Lakers worst, explain that!
OK Ill give it a crack but this isnt a professional analysis just my 2 cents

Artest most frequently used lineups include Fisher-Bryant-Gasol-Bynum for 668 Minutes of his PT, his 2nd most used lineups are essentially the same names only a frontcourt pairing of Odom+Bynum (398Min), and 3rd most frequent Odom+Gasol (275Min). Thats a combined 1341Minutes with a group of players I think we can all agree make up the Lakers best offensive lineups.

Ariza on the other hand got to play with those same players for 683 Minutes(Though if you replace Fisher with Farmer/Sasha it jumps to 914). Meaning he spent alot more time with the bench players than Artest did, thats obviously going to drag his raw +/- down abit dont you think? Even if we account for Kobes decline in performance this year, hes still better than Sasha and Farmar combined.

Now all of that isnt really all that important because +/- of an individual is so much more complex than what I stated (accounting for strength of opposition is something I simply dont have the brains for) so what really matters is the performance of those said lineups;

(Fish,Kobe,Artest vs PG/Kobe/Ariza Core Lineups)

------------ PTSxPoss
Artest vs Ariza
+Pau-Bynum 1.15 1.07
+Odom-Bynum 1.07 1.15
+Odom-Gasol 1.09 1.21

Make of them what you will, the answer to the thread depends on what you value (Size or Quickness).

Artest is a better fit alongside the 2 bigs because he can space the floor better, Ariza was better alongside the more mobile players because he can make better use of the space they provide. The lineup that won the Lakers the chip was the Odom-Gasol combo. This is evident in the playoff data as well http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/0809LAL2.HTM

Granted that was an injured Bynum, so basically this will come down to the playoffs and the health of Bynum. By choosing Artest over Ariza your hoping that his combination of lineups is more reliable than Odom+Pau.

However it doesnt prove that Artest is the better fit based on the regular season Which is what I claimed would happen but that the playoffs would hold a greater level of uncertainty given that we dont know the matchups.

The best fit was Ariza given their situations and the likelihood that Bynum gets injured, its why the Lakers have been struggling since hes gone down, but didnt miss a beat when Kobe went out.

Overall the Lakers offense was better with Ariza (113.4PTS) vs how well they do with Artest (111.1) and this isnt even factoring how often Artest got to play alongside better players.

Defensively it a no contest, I didnt think Artest would regain some of his form, Houston couldve used this kind of effort, then again he had to carry a bigger offensive burden so Ill admit I made the mistake of underrating just how much that would help his defense, but offensively everything is as it should be.

Jamiecballer
04-01-2010, 01:36 PM
unless you have a time machine and replay last season with Artest instead of Ariza it is foolish to suggest that anything has been proven based on the "evidence" the OP provided.

Verbal Christ
04-01-2010, 05:54 PM
if the OP doesnt make ron ron wear a rubber he may get pregnant.

JayW_1023
04-02-2010, 02:51 AM
I disagree...he doesn't have Ariza's quickness...he is a good one on one defender...but as a team defender, Ariza is a more valuable player because of his quickness.

To Artests credit, he is playing within himself and accepting his role. He is known for is volatility off the court, but on the court he has been quite unselfish.

But Ariza has the length and quickness to keep the Lakers D somewhat airtight. Artest isn't as quick as he used to be and the Lakers team D looks a step slow when he is on the floor.

Sadds The Gr8
04-02-2010, 03:03 AM
proven: This belongs in the lakers forum. No one else cares.

+2